ABE: World Cup 2010 / "Anyone but England"

[funk de fino]

Banter is fine. Schadenfraude is fine.

It's when it is somthing more distasteful that it becomes unacceptable.

At one point it would have been hard to know whether someone sporting a St George flag on their car was patriotic, an England supporter or a racist.

But we'll simply have to disagree over interpretation of where that line is in some people's adoption of ABE.

You appear to think every person supporting ABE (by whatever method) is making a purely anti English football statement.
I disagree.

This thread could run for 100 pages but I doubt the debate will proceed much beyond that stement of views.

There is nothing distasteful about a joke. The only distasteful thing is people trying to throw mud at this. Stick your racism.

If there are bigots in Scotland who hate England then that is a different matter. I know for a fact there are bigots in England who hate Scots. I know the treatment Gordon brown got from a lot of people because he was a Scots. You get bigots everywhere. Making up false arguments about what you think I am saying does you no favours. The ABE thing is a joke. Get a life people.

And it's not our fault your team were pish against the US.

[Ashles]

You didn't listen Chris Moyles this morning? You missed Chiles on the telly? You didn't have Radio 1 on about an hour ago? You've missed (say) the Sun advert?

The Sun which had a front page filled with the English goalkeeper letting in the goal with the huge banner headline saying "Hand of Clod"?
That Sun?
I don't think they could be accused of giving English footballers an easy ride a lot of the time.

And I don't listen to Chris Moyles precisely because he would annoy on just about any topic.
Seriously are you going out of your way to expose yourself to exactly the kind of commentator who is most likely to wind you up?

[Ashles]

If there are bigots in Scotland who hate England then that is a different matter. I know for a fact there are bigots in England who hate Scots. I know the treatment Gordon brown got from a lot of people because he was a Scots. You get bigots everywhere. Making up false arguments about what you think I am saying does you no favours. The ABE thing is a joke. Get a life people.

Maybe it's a joke for you, maybe not for others... I think I'll form my own opinion about that.

And it's not our fault your team were pish against the US.

No-one said it was.

[Last of the Fraggles]

The Sun which had a front page filled with the English goalkeeper letting in the goal with the huge banner headline saying "Hand of Clod"?
That Sun?
I don't think they could be accused of giving English footballers an easy ride a lot of the time.

And I don't listen to Chris Moyles precisely because he would annoy on just about any topic.
Seriously are you going out of your way to expose yourself to exactly the kind of commentator who is most likely to wind you up?

Found the article on the quality of punditry at the World Cup. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-39The-level-of.6364084.jp

Re: Moyles, Corden et al.... it's fine to say this kind of thing is annoying and not to watch it but given that its on TV it must represent something that a large number of (presumably English) fans want to see? i have no problem with turning it off but where is the alternative if I want to see decent coverage of the tournament?

[Last of the Fraggles]

I think I'll form my own opinion about that.


So you know better what we think than we do?

[Ashles]

So you know better what we think than we do?

People have been known to lie.

[Architect]

Have you read the Scotsman piece? Or do you object because (gasp) it comes from a Scottish paper and hence must be racist too?

[Ashles]

Found the article on the quality of punditry at the World Cup. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-39The-level-of.6364084.jp


And yet ironically I am supposed to accept The Scotsman as a bastion of impartiality?

[zooterkin]

Well actions speak louder than words, and we enjoyed zero-zilch support at the time. In all fairness I believe Darat had tried to raise the issue of offensive UK phrases before with the US JREF team to no avail, but the complete absence of any other voices didn't help. Funny that, eh?

Where was it being discussed?

[Ian Osborne]

Yet my father is in fact English (and a southern pansy to boot). Most of my friends are English. I now live in England.

And yet you'd support the opposition over a team you're eligible to play for, representing the country you live in? And you don't find that petty?

My grandfather was Welsh, and as a result, I support Wales against anyone except England. If I moved west of the border and adopted an 'anyone but Wales' attitude, I'd soon be told to '**** off back to England, boyo'. And justifiably so.

(which is silly, since Canada isn't even a real country anyway).

And Wales is?

[Architect]

And yet ironically I am supposed to accept The Scotsman as a bastion of impartiality?


I see. Which part of their transcript have they got wrong? Where are the errors of fact? Or, as I predicted, is this just your usual "racism" line?

[Ashles]

Have you read the Scotsman piece? Or do you object because (gasp) it comes from a Scottish paper and hence must be racist too?

Well I think it is at least as partisan as you claim the ITV and BBC to be.

[Just_Me]

interesting article . you could try looking at irish tv (www.RTE.ie) that if you wanted to but i don't think our pundits are any better then what you have in the UK . here is the link to access RTE in europe http://www.rte.ie/sport/worldcup/ebu_cbp.html

[Ashles]

I see. Which part of their transcript have they got wrong? Where are the errors of fact? Or, as I predicted, is this just your usual "racism" line?

Because obviously we couldn't ever cherry pick pro-Scottish comments by Alan Hansen and take them out of context? :rolleyes:

[Just_Me]

Architect are you having a laugh . you are listening to an ernglish radio station with a very nationalistic english dj and you expect them not to be partisan to england ?

[Architect]

Come on Ashles, you claim we're misinterpreting the coverage. Point out where the Scotsman is wrong. It's a long piece, if you're right you shouldn't find it too hard.

JustMe - what English station would that be? In fact, name me a "national" English station.

[Ashles]

Come on Ashles, you claim we're misinterpreting the coverage. Point out where the Scotsman is wrong. It's a long piece, if you're right you shouldn't find it too hard.

It appears you misunderstand the concept of cherry-picking.

It's a concept by which you take a limited number of certain details and present only those in order to provide a misleading view of the whole.

As that article has done.

All the quotes I'm sure are correct - however anyone actually watching the coverage would have encountered little actual positive review of England's performance.

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm not weighing in on the argument in general because I think for a number of reasons it's pointless, but I do want to say that while there certainly have been some dreadful moments in the analysis of this world cup (which the Scotsman article mentions) on the whole the discussions have been excellent, and to be frank, while they do cut away to the England camp every time Wayne Rooney takes a piss, the majority of the pointless nonsense filling up the BBC promo stuff is actually looking at South Africa. They have a bus going around the country talking about random things related to and inside South Africa. They go around to different areas to talk to South African football fans, discussing the merits of Bafana Bafana and discussing how wonderful it is to have such a major contest on the African continent.

There's also been a lot of talk about how disappointing the games have been from some teams, in particular France, Portugal and Italy, plus raving about the performances of the Germans and the New Zealand team, who got their first ever World Cup Finals point in their game.

Yes, they do discuss the one British team that makes up %80+ of this nation. Yes, some of it is totally useless pap that they could grind out without talking to anyone or that means nothing with regard to the football. I get annoyed by that as well, but I understand why they do it.

As for the inclusion of Kevin Keegan, I have absolutely no idea. He's not a bad manager but he's either blind or stupid.

ETA: I have no American in me, I've only been once and the biggest connection I have is that my girlfriend is American, but describing the American team as "Journeymen" is offensive, I think. The USA team is a skilful, able, hard-working team, and for such an article to be featured in a Scottish paper is laughable. Scotland are a good team too, and I know I'd support them over the USA, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Scots were beaten soundly.

[Ashles]

MarkCorrigan sums up my feelings on the coverage.

And yes Keegan's comments are fairly incomprehensible.

ETA - Anyway I'm off home now so probably won't be adding anything further to this for a good while (if at all).

[richardm]

Have you read the Scotsman piece? Or do you object because (gasp) it comes from a Scottish paper and hence must be racist too?

I read the Scotsman piece. But what was that supposed to illustrate? How TV pundits talked rubbish about Algeria, Slovenia, New Zealand, Slovakia, Italy, Paraguay, England and America?

Is it just that the BBC and ITV hire useless pundits?

I'm sure it's true, but I'm not sure how it helps the discussion at hand (not least when one of the pundits most singled out for criticism is Alan Hansen).

Is there anything to stop the much vaunted BBC Scotland team from doing their own punditry, or STV doing likewise? They managed it for the General Election, after all.

You didn't listen Chris Moyles this morning?

Hell no :D Listening to Chris Moyles is a sure recipe for disappointment (if not outright dismay or horror).

[Ethan Thane Athen]

You'd be a Swansea Jack, then?

No, a Neefer (cue song 'I'd rather be a Black* than a Swansea Jack') although the Jacks are now our Ospreylian cousins so I won't be as offended as I would previously have been at your question.;)


As to the New Zealand/England thing I'll just say - Andy Haden and Frank Oliver, Cardiff 1978.

Aye, but I think we still like the way they play the game and feel a lot in common with the country as opposed to England's stereotypical** kick and clap style.

**For those not familiar with Welsh rugby, this is because Neath play in Black.

**Though to be fair they have had periods away from that style.

[plumjam]

Actually, Scotland DID qualify for this year's World Cup.. it's just that it's been so poorly covered by the English-dominated media that, even in Scotland, few people other than the players and their immediate family are aware of this.

They play tomorrow night, against F.C. Ruritania.
The other teams in their group are Middle Earth and ******* Narnia.
There'll be no live coverage due to media bias, though you can see highlights on Nickelodeon at 12.50 am.

[Architect]

At least we know we're pish; the England team manage to convince themselves they're contenders right up until the moment a real team like Germany put them out.

[/football mode]

[Agatha]

I am a big sports fan. I will be watching every World Cup game (we are allowed to watch at work).

I have a season ticket to my local ice hockey team and we have a massive rivalry with the Nottingham Panthers. In league games, I will support Sheffield Steelers first and after that, a hierarchy of teams with Nottingham at the bottom. But if Nottingham Panthers qualified for an international competition, and no other British ice hockey team qualified, I'd support the Panthers as the British team in the competition, same as I would if the only British team were Edinburgh Capitals or Cardiff Devils. That feeling of being British as well as English is perhaps why I don't understand the negativity of ABE.

[foxprorawks]

At least we know we're pish; the England team manage to convince themselves they're contenders right up until the moment a real team like Germany put them out.

[/football mode]

England are gearing up to blame the Adidas ball.

It's just been mentioned on Radio 4, and they talked a bit about it on Radio 5 this morning.

Of course, Adidas is a German company, and Germany have already played with the ball before the World Cup.

I think England are sponsored by Nike.

So, if England do badly on Friday, no doubt all the talk will concern how rubbish the ball is...

[Rolfe]

At least we know we're pish; the England team manage to convince themselves they're contenders right up until the moment a real team like Germany put them out.

[/football mode]


You've just been reading Ruth Wishart. (Managed to drag your eyes to the right then...?)

England expects but it's time to get real (http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/ruth-wishart/england-expects-but-it-s-time-to-get-real-1.1035036)

When Ally’s army sang of certain victory in Argentina, it was no more than the national brand of fantasy football never seriously to be confused with actual events on the pitch, where a more realistic assessment of team quality is that doughty anthem: “We’re s**** and we know we are.” Which is why we go collectively bananas when somebody drops the script and we beat France at Hampden.

And then, to prove a daft point, do it again in Paris. Memories are made of this, but not hallucinations. No Scot seriously imagines their country will win a major tournament. Getting to one a little more often would be nice.

In contrast, England puts itself through every kind of angst on the basis that the men in white can only be thwarted by some unexpected act of God/dodgy ref/ inexplicable run of injuries. Can we win it, they ask every time. To which the sane answer is: very probably not. But sanity rarely gets more than a brief cameo from the subs’ bench.


Rolfe.

[plumjam]

...
Of course, Adidas is a German company, and Germany have already played with the ball before the World Cup.
...

Does this mean if Germany get's knocked out they can cancel the tournament cos it's their ball?

[Architect]

I am a big sports fan. I will be watching every World Cup game (we are allowed to watch at work).

I have a season ticket to my local ice hockey team and we have a massive rivalry with the Nottingham Panthers. In league games, I will support Sheffield Steelers first and after that, a hierarchy of teams with Nottingham at the bottom. But if Nottingham Panthers qualified for an international competition, and no other British ice hockey team qualified, I'd support the Panthers as the British team in the competition, same as I would if the only British team were Edinburgh Capitals or Cardiff Devils. That feeling of being British as well as English is perhaps why I don't understand the negativity of ABE.


Really?

Name the Scottish captain and manager. Who did we play last? What about Northern Ireland and Wales?


You're unlikely to know these without googling because frankly it's lucky to get more than a 10 second mention in the media at any given point.

Once the World Cup is over and we hit the 2010-11 season, you watch the media closely. Choose a point where, say, all thehome nations are playing friendly during one evening. Look at the coverage the "national" news gives to England, and don't blink or you'll miss the mention of the others. If it's a really, really quiet news day then you might get a very brief clip of someone training. That'll be it, 9 times out of ten.

Pop onto the BBC sports site right now. Take a look at the Rugby Union section (I'm deliberately avoiding football in case I'm accused of "racism"). Hover over the two headline Welsh and Scottish stories and note they appear in said home nation sections of the website. Now hover over the "Club Captain Miller Leaves Exeter" headline and muse why it appears in the general or UK section rather than an English one.

The next time you listed to Brian Moore commentating on a Calcutta Cup game, listed closely. You'll quickly learn why he doesn't do the broadcasts for the other home nations.

Welcome to our world. One where the supposedly "national" media forget that they only represent one home nation at times like this.

Now imagine that you've been putting up with this kind of partisan crap for 20-30 years. And believe me, the jokes about the nationality of Scottish or Welsh athletes changing depending on their success ring all too true.

People wonder how ABE happened. I reckon it's a miracle we didn't see it before. But that's okay, because it's all our fault. We're racist. Hmmm.

[foxprorawks]

I am a big sports fan. I will be watching every World Cup game (we are allowed to watch at work).

I have a season ticket to my local ice hockey team and we have a massive rivalry with the Nottingham Panthers. In league games, I will support Sheffield Steelers first and after that, a hierarchy of teams with Nottingham at the bottom. But if Nottingham Panthers qualified for an international competition, and no other British ice hockey team qualified, I'd support the Panthers as the British team in the competition, same as I would if the only British team were Edinburgh Capitals or Cardiff Devils. That feeling of being British as well as English is perhaps why I don't understand the negativity of ABE.

Just wanted to comment that it's good to see someone supporting their local team in a sport that isn't football.

I support Glasgow Rocks, the only professional basketball team in Scotland and the only Scottish team in the British Basketball League. I've been in the position of cheering on an English team (since all other teams in the league are English) against our biggest rivals Newcastle Eagles. Having said that, my biggest friends in the league are Eagles fans.

Hopefully, some day, both of our sports will get more exposure in the media.

[foxprorawks]

Does this mean if Germany get's knocked out they can cancel the tournament cos it's their ball?

Yes - that's exactly what it means :-)

[Dragon]

No, a Neefer (cue song 'I'd rather be a Black* than a Swansea Jack') although the Jacks are now our Ospreylian cousins so I won't be as offended as I would previously have been at your question.;)




Aye, but I think we still like the way they play the game and feel a lot in common with the country as opposed to England's stereotypical** kick and clap style.

**For those not familiar with Welsh rugby, this is because Neath play in Black.

**Though to be fair they have had periods away from that style. I remember hearing a very un-PC* version of that song from the Llanelli fans at a Swansea/Scarlets match at St Helens about 30 years ago.

I will admit to a grudging respect for the All Blacks and yes, nowadays they generally play a much more expansive version of the game than they used to back then. I won't be at all disappointed if they choke again at the RWC next year though.



*i.e. out and out racist - I will not be furnishing the forum with the rest of the song.

btw to answer your earlier question - Abergavenny - but I did go to Swansea Uni (and went out with a girl from Briton Ferry) so I am familiar with your neck of the woods.

[Agatha]

With my foggy memory I am hard pressed to recall the names of the players in the team I spend every weekend watching, so no I can't name the Scottish football team manager without googling. I saw the highlights of the Scotland-Argentina rugby union game last week, despite being more of a rugby league fan, if that helps.

I know about the nationality of athletes changing depending on their success; it's ridiculously stupid. I don't remember it happening much with Eddie Irvine but I do recall it happening with David Coulthard.

I don't enjoy the London-centric-ness of the media (particularly the TV) given I live in the wilds of rural Derbyshire, but it doesn't mean I would wear an "anyone but Spurs" T-shirt; I don't tie support for a team to the hype of the media. I think it should be about the game, not about politics or how many column inches are devoted to one team or another.

[mummymonkey]

Found the article on the quality of punditry at the World Cup. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Tom-English-39The-level-of.6364084.jp

Thanks. Did Tom English really write that?

[mummymonkey]

Architect are you having a laugh . you are listening to an ernglish radio station with a very nationalistic english dj and you expect them not to be partisan to england ?

Radio 1 is not an English radio station and I expect the BBC to remain neutral in commentary, news and analysis. I suppose you might exempt sport from this but it shouldn't be taken too far. A mild exclaimation of "Come on chaps!" is as much as is decent.

In other news, Moyles is an arse. (Isn't he Irish anyway?)

[Architect]

And I would have expected a fellow celt to know the difference betwixt England and the UK. Methinks he's winding us up.

Moyles is half Irish, IIRC.

[mummymonkey]

Pop onto the BBC sports site right now. Take a look at the Rugby Union section (I'm deliberately avoiding football in case I'm accused of "racism"). Hover over the two headline Welsh and Scottish stories and note they appear in said home nation sections of the website. Now hover over the "Club Captain Miller Leaves Exeter" headline and muse why it appears in the general or UK section rather than an English one.

You're looking for stuff to get offended over aren't you? The folder structure of a website for goodness sake. It's not as if it affects the actual content or how it's presented. There's plenty Scottish stuff on the home page too.

[mummymonkey]

And I would have expected a fellow celt to know the difference betwixt England and the UK. Methinks he's winding us up.

I did wonder. It's just so hard to tell on this thread. (Apart from Plumjam of course - he's always deadly serious)

[Architect]

You're looking for stuff to get offended over aren't you? The folder structure of a website for goodness sake. It's not as if it affects the actual content or how it's presented. There's plenty Scottish stuff on the home page too.

Look at some English NHS articles. Don't apply to the other home nations. Same thing. They consider their home news to be "national" and the rest of us are fenced off. Explains their thinking across the board, if you ask me.

;)

[mummymonkey]

Look at some English NHS articles. Don't apply to the other home nations. Same thing. They consider their home news to be "national" and the rest of us are fenced off. Explains their thinking across the board, if you ask me.

;)

Well you separatists are always asking for your own special this 'n that so you can't complain when you get it. (Though you do of course.)

[commandlinegamer]

I doubt it. Only thing I can think of is that Uruguay knocked us out of Mexico 86 by kicking us off the park. They're forgiven.

Thanks, I did a bit of digging and it appears they were quite brutal in that match, to the extent of having one of their players red-carded within the first two minutes. Found a video about the 'scandal' (part 4):

http://www.frontlinefootball.com/Football-Documentaries/dirty-rotten-scandals/

[LukeB]

Anyone complaining about the T.V. coverage deserves what they get. I've managed to avoid any and all coverage of the England team with the timely use of the mute button. 90 minutes usually covers it :D

Is the ABE club only for the Celts, or can we English get in on it as well? I've been always been a passionate supporter of non-English teams, I'm sure every nation has an equal share of obnoxious fans but it's the English ones I'm exposed to.
When it comes to a real sport though I hope we smoosh ya :)

[Architect]

Alas it's not too long until the rugby starts again. Still, I've got my France top if I need it.

[manofthesea]

I think the arguing here rather tame compared to other soccer threads on the web: http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/worldcup/story/world-cup-favorite-spain-shocked-by-switzerland-in-opener
reiman
6/16/2010 11:07:41 PMspain lost because of their goalie and Switzerland won because of thier goalie. And it all came down to the superiority of the white race over the latin race. ...

[Rolfe]

Love Ohms's avatar by the way....

Got my t-shirt. Nice shade of green, quality cotton, good fit.

Better take it off again now, because I have a crawling suspicion that there's something in the small print of the House Rules that frowns on the wearing of any emblems of alliegance, and no doubt some humour-challenged pedant peasant would complain....

Rolfe.

[Mashuna]

In a supermarket yesterday (Sainsbury's), the piped music was all World Cup themed, mainly English official and unofficial songs. The staff must have been told they were allowed to wear football themed clothes, so there were a number of Brazil, Italy and "I support two teams, Wales and whoever is playing England" tops on show.

[Damien Evans]

If you want to watch the football but object to the British media mentioning the only British team in the tournament, perhaps you should take an extended break and watch the coverage from an Australian hotel room? You'll probably have an 'Anyone But the Soccaroos' avatar within a day.

Nah, our coverage is fair, mostly because SBS realise how crap our team is.

We did have the England-USA match on twice in 30 hours though.

[funk de fino]

Thanks, I did a bit of digging and it appears they were quite brutal in that match, to the extent of having one of their players red-carded within the first two minutes. Found a video about the 'scandal' (part 4):

http://www.frontlinefootball.com/Football-Documentaries/dirty-rotten-scandals/

It was a terrible game and Ernie Walker (head of the SFA at the time IIRC) said they were animals or something.

Would still support them against England though.

;)

[commandlinegamer]

It was a terrible game and Ernie Walker (head of the SFA at the time IIRC) said they were animals or something.

See, I think the problem with the Scotland team is we've gone soft. The rot probably set in when they closed the pits; no more hard-ass miners to pick from.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

...
It's like a Brian Moore rugby commentary all over again (hint: Brian is no longer broadcasted in the Celtic nations during the 6 nations because of the level of complaints regarding partisan commentary).

I liked Brian Moore (especially his 'That's not a punch - it's more of a gay slap. If you're going to get binned for punching at least do some damage' comment that he got so much stick for). He was about the only commentator who understood what was happenning in the scrum as well.

Yeah he was biased in that he'd often say 'We' when referring to England and his emotions betrayed his allegience but I don't think he was particularly biased in his assessments - he'd slag England off more than anyone if they played badly.

[Last of the Fraggles]

I'm not weighing in on the argument in general because I think for a number of reasons it's pointless, but I do want to say that while there certainly have been some dreadful moments in the analysis of this world cup (which the Scotsman article mentions) on the whole the discussions have been excellent, and to be frank, while they do cut away to the England camp every time Wayne Rooney takes a piss, the majority of the pointless nonsense filling up the BBC promo stuff is actually looking at South Africa. They have a bus going around the country talking about random things related to and inside South Africa. They go around to different areas to talk to South African football fans, discussing the merits of Bafana Bafana and discussing how wonderful it is to have such a major contest on the African continent.

There's also been a lot of talk about how disappointing the games have been from some teams, in particular France, Portugal and Italy, plus raving about the performances of the Germans and the New Zealand team, who got their first ever World Cup Finals point in their game.

Yes, they do discuss the one British team that makes up %80+ of this nation. Yes, some of it is totally useless pap that they could grind out without talking to anyone or that means nothing with regard to the football. I get annoyed by that as well, but I understand why they do it.

As for the inclusion of Kevin Keegan, I have absolutely no idea. He's not a bad manager but he's either blind or stupid.

ETA: I have no American in me, I've only been once and the biggest connection I have is that my girlfriend is American, but describing the American team as "Journeymen" is offensive, I think. The USA team is a skilful, able, hard-working team, and for such an article to be featured in a Scottish paper is laughable. Scotland are a good team too, and I know I'd support them over the USA, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Scots were beaten soundly.

Scotland are a poor team that would probably lose to the USA. In context, the USA team tend to play for the lesser lights of world football. Is journeymen a bit harsh? Maybe so, but it reflects the unglamourous nature of the squad in comparison to the stars of England - Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Cole and others we are continually reminded are supposed to be among the elite - the best in the World. I don't think any of the USA squad (or Scotland for that matter) fall into that camp.

[Last of the Fraggles]

I read the Scotsman piece. But what was that supposed to illustrate? How TV pundits talked rubbish about Algeria, Slovenia, New Zealand, Slovakia, Italy, Paraguay, England and America?

Is it just that the BBC and ITV hire useless pundits?

I'm sure it's true, but I'm not sure how it helps the discussion at hand (not least when one of the pundits most singled out for criticism is Alan Hansen).

Is there anything to stop the much vaunted BBC Scotland team from doing their own punditry, or STV doing likewise? They managed it for the General Election, after all.



Hell no :D Listening to Chris Moyles is a sure recipe for disappointment (if not outright dismay or horror).

I did say the piece wasn't exactly on the point but I think it illustrates somewhat the disdain with which the English media treat every other team other than England. However, yes it mostly says that the pundits are rubbish!

BBC Scotland and STV presumably don't do their own coverage as their budget is tight and they feel its not a good use of the available funds. I'm trying to remember back to previous world cups - I think they only tend to provide separate coverage for the Scotland games or games in Scotland's groups. Incidentaly, I believe England doesn't take this coverage which is strange - why can't the English watch Pat Nevin and Billy Dodds talking pish instead of Alan Shearer and Alan Hansen?

[Last of the Fraggles]

I am a big sports fan. I will be watching every World Cup game (we are allowed to watch at work).

I have a season ticket to my local ice hockey team and we have a massive rivalry with the Nottingham Panthers. In league games, I will support Sheffield Steelers first and after that, a hierarchy of teams with Nottingham at the bottom. But if Nottingham Panthers qualified for an international competition, and no other British ice hockey team qualified, I'd support the Panthers as the British team in the competition, same as I would if the only British team were Edinburgh Capitals or Cardiff Devils. That feeling of being British as well as English is perhaps why I don't understand the negativity of ABE.

Many people don't feel British though. As I remarked earlier many people actually want to differentiate themselves and establish a separate identity. This interchangability of Britain and England is something many people react against. To be fair, the English have got better at not making that mistake and its good to see St George's flying instead of Union Jacks. Now when are they going to change the anthem?

[zooterkin]

I read the Scotsman piece. But what was that supposed to illustrate? How TV pundits talked rubbish about Algeria, Slovenia, New Zealand, Slovakia, Italy, Paraguay, England and America?

Is it just that the BBC and ITV hire useless pundits?


Pretty much, I think. :) I'm constantly disappointed at the lack of depth of analysis. It's possibly getting better with some of the fancy computer aids, in that they at least attempt it rather than just comment on some player's 'work rate' and commitment, but I've yet to see a coherent explanation of, for example, exactly how different tactical formations work, and why one team did things better than another. Possibly I'm expecting too much, and maybe there isn't that much thought going into the formations in the first place; some managers give the impression that they are just motivating their players to try harder, not to do anything specific. Or perhaps I missed the lesson at school where we told about all this, and everyone else knows but me.

[lionking]

I love you Scots (I seriously do), but who would you support in the unlikely event of an Australia vs England match?

[Agatha]

Now when are they going to change the anthem? Soon, please. I have no desire to exhort an imaginary deity to protect a relatively irrelevant institution.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

See, I think the problem with the Scotland team is we've gone soft. The rot probably set in when they closed the pits; no more hard-ass miners to pick from.

Surely any hard-ass miners would be playing a proper game like rugby not some namby-pamby soccer game.:p

[lionking]

Surely any hard-ass miners would be playing a proper game like rugby not some namby-pamby soccer game.:p
But in rugby you can't roll around the ground in agony when tapped on the ankle. Nancy boys unite. :)

[Dragon]

I liked Brian Moore (especially his 'That's not a punch - it's more of a gay slap. If you're going to get binned for punching at least do some damage' comment that he got so much stick for). He was about the only commentator who understood what was happenning in the scrum as well.

Yeah he was biased in that he'd often say 'We' when referring to England and his emotions betrayed his allegience but I don't think he was particularly biased in his assessments - he'd slag England off more than anyone if they played badly.Which just about sums up my view of him - he sort of wears his heart on his sleeve and loves the game - it pains him when he sees poor rugby. I though Brian Moore and Eddie Butler were a good double act, at least you got a few laughs out their banter.

[mummymonkey]

I love you Scots (I seriously do), but who would you support in the unlikely event of an Australia vs England match?

Cricket - England
Football - Australia

I agree that makes no sense, I'm not even sure why myself. But that's how it is for me.

[Last of the Fraggles]

I love you Scots (I seriously do), but who would you support in the unlikely event of an Australia vs England match?

Australia. Why would we have anything against the Aussies?

I'm trying to think back if I have ever supported an England team in my life and can't think of any example other than Euro96 when Scotland needed England to win heavily for us to go through and they chucked it!

I've definitely backed English individuals like Nigel Mansell, Daley Thompson, linford Christie, etc but that tends to go on an individual by individual basis - couldn't stand Henman for example.

Nor do I support other British nations such as Wales or N Ireland though I don't really have any strong desire to see them do poorly. Ireland is a bit of a case where I want them to lose but mainly because of all the Celtic supporters who adopt them as their team and because I'm continually told by the media that I should support them for some unknown reason - they aren't even British!

[Architect]

Yeah he was biased in that he'd often say 'We' when referring to England and his emotions betrayed his allegience but I don't think he was particularly biased in his assessments - he'd slag England off more than anyone if they played badly.

It was a bit more than "we"; in his commentaries he talked almost exclusively about the English team and displayed quite some bias regarding referreeing decisions.

[Mashuna]

Pretty much, I think. :) I'm constantly disappointed at the lack of depth of analysis. It's possibly getting better with some of the fancy computer aids, in that they at least attempt it rather than just comment on some player's 'work rate' and commitment, but I've yet to see a coherent explanation of, for example, exactly how different tactical formations work, and why one team did things better than another. Possibly I'm expecting too much, and maybe there isn't that much thought going into the formations in the first place; some managers give the impression that they are just motivating their players to try harder, not to do anything specific. Or perhaps I missed the lesson at school where we told about all this, and everyone else knows but me.

Gordon Strachen and Martin O'Neill used to be good at this type of analysis, before they went back into management.

[commandlinegamer]

Enemies of Reason comment on the Scotsman article reference earlier:

http://enemiesofreason.co.uk/2010/06/17/experts-and-plebs/

[funk de fino]

I love you Scots (I seriously do), but who would you support in the unlikely event of an Australia vs England match?

Australia. Not at cricket though.

[zooterkin]

Gordon Strachen and Martin O'Neill used to be good at this type of analysis, before they went back into management.

Yes, good point, those are two of the more articulate managers; maybe it just wasn't popular enough, or the people who can do it can get paid better for actually managing. Not sure why the sort of analysis that seems commonplace in US sports isn't wanted in the UK.


Anyway, sorry for the drift, back to complaining about all English people for the sins of the media...

[Rolfe]

Schadenfreude is bad. Evil. I know this.... :D

Rolfe.

[LukeB]

Schadenfreude is bad. Evil. I know this.... :D
Clearly you didn't watch the game then. No matter how much you want England to do badly, there's no way anyone could have enjoyed that match.
When was the last major competition England were in that they actully played entertaining football and their matches were at least fun to watch? Have we got to go back to Euro 96? The second that awful team go out the average quality of the matches in this World Cup is going to shoot up. Which won't be long now... :D

[commandlinegamer]

When was the last major competition England were in that they were actully played entertaining football and their matches were at least fun to watch?

No flames please, but could this in any way be down to the dominance of club football fixtures, to the extent that national squads don't have enough time to practice; to gel together?

[Rolfe]

Watch football? Did hell freeze over while I wasn't looking?

Even if the team I nominally support was playing, the most I'd do would be to keep an ear open when the results were being read out. Or possibly channel-flip every 15 or 20 minutes to check the score, if it's on TV. (No, I'd only go that far for rugby I think.)

Now, hush. Wimbledon starts in less than three days. I must compose myself into a suitable state of anticipation....

Rolfe.

[LukeB]

Well because I love you, here's 7 seconds you might enjoy Rolfe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cINRczqgju0&feature=youtube_gdata :D

[funk de fino]

This ABE thing must be affecting the England team. They are playing like they were Scotland.

[mummymonkey]

http://i45.tinypic.com/1h7cxu.jpg

[Architect]

I'm guessing that this is the Scottish edition....

:)

[commandlinegamer]

Ach, it's probably just as well Scotland aren't playing, with such lousy teams at this year's competition.

[mummymonkey]

The authorities step in ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10357018.stm

[commandlinegamer]

The authorities step in ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10357018.stm

Damn, beat me to it.

[Rolfe]

I like my t-shirt (http://www.sumosamtshirts.co.uk/anyone-but-england-t-shirt-kelly-green-762-p.asp) better anyway. :D

Rolfe.

[foxprorawks]

The linked news article appears to have changed - the HMV spokesman now says:

"In our view, they are not against England or the English, but are simply about some Scottish fans expressing their view that they want a team other than England to win this year's World Cup, which I would have thought they are entitled to do, even though it's not a sentiment we agree with."

The title has been changed to "HMV rejects 'anti-English' ABE T-shirt slur".

[Jekyll's Guest]

It's just a bit of fun.

Also:

Braveheart is a documentary.

Scotland would be a thriving European nation without England pulling it down.

They're not skirts, they're kilts.

Scotland is a fine Footballing nation, with a strong and well balanced league.

Scrooge McDuck is an eccentric Scottish millionaire who likes to dress as a mouse.

[lionking]

It's just a bit of fun.

Also:

Braveheart is a documentary.

Scotland would be a thriving European nation without England pulling it down.

They're not skirts, they're kilts.

Scotland is a fine Footballing nation, with a strong and well balanced league.

Scrooge McDuck is an eccentric Scottish millionaire who likes to dress as a mouse.

All balanced by how bloody cold the place is. ;)

I still like it, and even some of you scots.

[Matthew Best]

Me too, some of the Scotch are quite pleasant, and they have amusing accents.

[lionking]

Me too, some of the Scotch are quite pleasant, and they have amusing accents.
"Scotch"??? Good thing you are anonymous. ;)

[Matthew Best]

What are you talking about? :confused: :confused:

And I'm not anonymous. My name is right next to this post.

[lionking]

What are you talking about? :confused: :confused:

And I'm not anonymous. My name is right next to this post.
It's a joke, as you calling Scots Scotch undoubtably was. :)

[Matthew Best]

A joke? Not at all.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Scotch

1. (used with a pl. verb) The people of Scotland.

[lionking]

A joke? Not at all.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Scotch

1. (used with a pl. verb) The people of Scotland.
Fair enough. When I was there I was told in no uncertain terms that Scotch was a drink, and to call the Scots Scotch was almost an invitation to a fight.

Never mind.

[Matthew Best]

When I was there I was told in no uncertain terms that Scotch was a drink, and to call the Scots Scotch was almost an invitation to a fight.

Really? How peculiar. All I can say to that is to quote funk de fino:

"It's like when someone calls you a nickname at school. The last thing you want to do is let anyone know it really bothers you because it will only make it carry on."

[ohms]

What? No mention of yesterdays cricket result (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/8749177.stm)? :p

ETA:

I shall be "forgetting" this post once we start losing to the Aussies next week ;)

[lionking]

What? No mention of yesterdays cricket result (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/8749177.stm)? :p

ETA:

I shall be "forgetting" this post once we start losing to the Aussies next week ;)
Just don't mention rugby. :(

[Ian Osborne]

Fair enough. When I was there I was told in no uncertain terms that Scotch was a drink, and to call the Scots Scotch was almost an invitation to a fight.

Correct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_(adjective)).

The modern usage in Scotland is Scottish or Scots, where the word "Scotch" is only applied to specific products, usually food or drink, such as scotch whisky, scotch pie, scotch broth or scotch eggs, and "Scotch" if applied to people is widely considered mildly pejorative.

[Matthew Best]

The modern usage in Scotland is Scottish or Scots

I'm not in Scotland.

[lionking]

Correct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_(adjective)).
Jeez thanks Ian. I thought for a moment that those porridge wogs were having a lend of me.





Sorry;)

[Lothian]

I'm not in Scotland.But you do speak modern English?

[Matthew Best]

But you do speak modern English?

When I feel like it. Sometimes I enjoy using archaic idioms.

[Ian Osborne]

Jeez thanks Ian. I thought for a moment that those porridge wogs were having a lend of me.

Porridge wogs don't lend anyone anything unless it's at a vast rate of interest. ;)

[Matthew Best]

I really must object in the strongest possible terms to the offensive use of the term "porridge wogs" to refer to the Scotch.

[lionking]

Porridge wogs don't lend anyone anything unless it's at a vast rate of interest. ;)
Brilliant. Multiple stereotypical insults in one sentence. I dips my hat.:D

[lionking]

I really must object in the strongest possible terms to the offensive use of the term "porridge wogs" to refer to the Scotch.
Bloody pom. ;)

[Ian Osborne]

The England team went to visit an orphanage in South Africa this morning. "It's good to put smiles on the faces of people who have no hope, are constantly struggling and face the impossible," said Jamel Umboto, aged 6.

[Matthew Best]

Excellent!

[lionking]

The England team went to visit an orphanage in South Africa this morning. "It's good to put smiles on the faces of people who have no hope, are constantly struggling and face the impossible," said Jamel Umboto, aged 6.
Posts like this make me, against all odds, love the English.

[Architect]

Posts like this make me, against all odds, love the English.

I would't bet on it being the Sassenachs English who thought it up: problably one of those international "change the country" jokes, and in any event it was used in the (Glasgow) Herald diary column last week.

:)

[mummymonkey]

The England team went to visit an orphanage in South Africa this morning. "It's good to put smiles on the faces of people who have no hope, are constantly struggling and face the impossible," said Jamel Umboto, aged 6.

Ha, ha! Stolen. :D

[Rolfe]

All balanced by how bloody cold the place is. ;)


And well you might wink! I'm typing this lying on a sun lounger in my garden. It's so warm that even my ABE t-shirt seems over-dressed. I'm surrounded by butterflies, songbirds and colourful flowers. It's idyllic. And I'm not even making any of this up!

Still on a serious note, using "Scotch" to apply to people (as opposed to something you would eat or drink) is an archaism. I don't know why modern Scots don't like it, but they don't. Maybe because it's often used indultingly? You'll find it in dictionaries because it's perfectly good 18th-century usage. Just don't use it in the 21st century - unless you either mean to give offence, or are trying to wind somebody up.

Rolfe.

[Architect]

I'm trying to think up an English equivalent (on the basis that Sassenach will mean nothing to them, notwithstanding the baggage the word carries) without much success.

[Damien Evans]

And well you might wink! I'm typing this lying on a sun lounger in my garden. It's so warm that even my ABE t-shirt seems over-dressed. I'm surrounded by butterflies, songbirds and colourful flowers. It's idyllic. And I'm not even making any of this up!

Still on a serious note, using "Scotch" to apply to people (as opposed to something you would eat or drink) is an archaism. I don't know why modern Scots don't like it, but they don't. Maybe because it's often used indultingly? You'll find it in dictionaries because it's perfectly good 18th-century usage. Just don't use it in the 21st century - unless you either mean to give offence, or are trying to wind somebody up.

Rolfe.

HA! Crank it up much over 30 and you have to cart your entire country off to hospital with heat stroke. Here, we get that 3 days out of every 4 from November to march.

[Jekyll's Guest]

I'm trying to think up an English equivalent (on the basis that Sassenach will mean nothing to them, notwithstanding the baggage the word carries) without much success.

Good insults tend to roll downhill.

[Matthew Best]

There's no malice, or ire, or anything else, in the "Scotch" stuff. Get over it.

But if that's enough to get someone uncomfortable, maybe they should apply for the "princess and the pea" award.

[Architect]

You know, that's the kind of argument deployed by people who use the N-word too.

[Jekyll's Guest]

You know, that's the kind of argument deployed by people who use the N-word too.

N is actually a letter, not a word.

You know, we conquered you chaps hundreds of years ago, you could try learning the language.

[Rolfe]

HA! Crank it up much over 30 and you have to cart your entire country off to hospital with heat stroke.


Exactly. Beautiful 25 or so here today. Pleasant breeze. Perfect for lying in the sun. Any hotter and it would be unpleasant.

Here, we get that 3 days out of every 4 from November to march.


Remind me to visit some time from March to November, when I finally get round to touring the colonies....

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

And it's nearly half past ten, and just beginning to get dusk.

Rolfe.

[Matthew Best]

You know, that's the kind of argument deployed by people who use the N-word too.

Those were both quotes from Rolfe - take it up with her.

[funk de fino]

I'm trying to think up an English equivalent (on the basis that Sassenach will mean nothing to them, notwithstanding the baggage the word carries) without much success.

A lot of people up my way call them guffs. Affectionally.

[Steve]

There's no malice, or ire, or anything else, in the "Scotch" stuff. Get over it.

But if that's enough to get someone uncomfortable, maybe they should apply for the "princess and the pea" award.

You know, that's the kind of argument deployed by people who use the N-word too.

Those were both quotes from Rolfe - take it up with her.

Touche!

[Damien Evans]

N is actually a letter, not a word.

You know, we conquered you chaps hundreds of years ago, you could try learning the language.

That's an interesting definition you have of conquered there.

[Ian Osborne]

OXO is introducing a new white OXO cube with a red cross on it, in support of the England team.

It's called the laughing stock!

[Agatha]

OXO is introducing a new white OXO cube with a red cross on it, in support of the England team.

It's called the laughing stock! :D

[Architect]

I'm in Belfast on business - only limited internet access alas - and it's encouraging to find so many people here who don't support England either.....

[Soapy Sam]

I think I've made it plain before that if all footballers were raptured tomorrow, I'd neither notice nor care.
I am aware though, that local teams long ago abandoned recruiting players locally. I also note that fans of major teams no longer necessarily come from the team's neighbourhood. People claim to "support" Man. U, who have never seen Manchester, or even Britain.

Why then , would I, as a Scot, be supposed by default to support a Scottish team in a competition? And if there is no Scottish team, why would I be expected to support an English one, merely because it's the next country south?
Were I at all interested in the game, surely I would want to watch whichever teams played the best football?

Indeed, why is the concept of support relevant at all?

[Lothian]

if there is no Scottish team, why would I be expected to support an English one, merely because it's the next country south?I think it is because 400 years ago James VI took England under Scotland's protective wing that we are supposed to still care for them. You would have thought, after all this time, they would be able to stand on their own feet without needing constant reassurance from us.

[rwguinn]

I'm so sorry for you Scots.
England and USA advance. More hype for a while, I fear...

[Jekyll's Guest]

And if there is no Scottish team, why would I be expected to support an English one, merely because it's the next country south?


Because both countries are part of the U.K., and supposedly united.

It's not like the U.S.A. cheering against Canada out of spite, it's like the U.S.A. cheering against a part of itself out of spite.

It's actually kind of sick.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I am aware though, that local teams long ago abandoned recruiting players locally. I also note that fans of major teams no longer necessarily come from the team's neighbourhood. People claim to "support" Man. U, who have never seen Manchester, or even Britain.


Indeed. They are just businesses now - another reason why I don't understand football supporters. Being a rugby supporter it would be completely alien to me to support anyone other than my local team / region. However, as rugby has turned professional there are fewer local players in the teams (still a healthy percentage but it is dropping) so there is a concern it could go the same way.

Money in sport - ruins it for me.....but then I've always been a purist in such matters.

[Architect]

Because both countries are part of the U.K., and supposedly united.

It's not like the U.S.A. cheering against Canada out of spite, it's like the U.S.A. cheering against a part of itself out of spite.

It's actually kind of sick.


United? Don't make me laught - I'll remember that the next time I find the Scottish sport compressed to 0.5 seconds at the end of the sports report because the England manager sneezed. I'll remember it the next time the average Englishman even knows who we're playing and who our manager is. I'll remember it the next time I hear Brian Moore do a rugby commentary for a Calcutta Cup match and be even slightly neutral.....

[Jekyll's Guest]

United? Don't make me laught - I'll remember that the next time I find the Scottish sport compressed to 0.5 seconds at the end of the sports report because the England manager sneezed. I'll remember it the next time the average Englishman even knows who we're playing and who our manager is. I'll remember it the next time I hear Brian Moore do a rugby commentary for a Calcutta Cup match and be even slightly neutral.....

It's not the job of the majority in a group to follow what the minority is up to, merely to allow them the freedom to do as they wish.

You seem to have some chip on your shoulder that unless the Scots have equal say so to people who outnumber them 10 to 1 then you are somehow being oppressed.

I could support the Scottish team even going in not knowing a thing about them. That's a great thing about the world cup, you learn as you watch.

[Aitch]

All balanced by how bloody cold the place is. ;)

And don't forget the bloody midges!

[Architect]

You seem to have some chip on your shoulder that unless the Scots have equal say so to people who outnumber them 10 to 1 then you are somehow being oppressed.


And you seem to think that numerical superiority is valid reason to marginalise and ignore the other home nations, notwithstanding the fact that the B in BBC stands for British, then you act surprised when said home nations get upset about it.

Because its not just the Scots, is it? It's not just our wee nation on it's own. Its the Northern Irish and the Welsh too. Funny that, eh?

[mbp]

And you seem to think that numerical superiority is valid reason to marginalise and ignore the other home nations, notwithstanding the fact that the B in BBC stands for British, then you act surprised when said home nations get upset about it.
Isn't the the root cause of this problem that there aren't any specifically English broadcasters or newspapers?
Because while the relentless focus on the English team does get a bit tedious for neutrals such as myself (and probably worse than that to for the ABEs), I really don't think the BBCs World Cup coverage is any more biased towards England than the German media is towards Germany or the Danish towards Denmark.

So if that kind of single-minded focus is the norm - and for the countries whose media I'm able to understand that seems to be the case - where other than the nationwide British media could you produce that?
Would it help to introduce a "BBC England" specifically for covering sports where the British home nations compete separately?
Because I can certainly imagine how annoying it would be for me to have to watch Swedish World Cup matches on Swedish TV, for example.

... not that this is a problem during the current tournament. :-)

[Rolfe]

That sort of broadcasting devolution is absolute anathema to the unionist politicians and establishment. People have been lobbying for years for a better arrangement, but anything that allows the smaller nations more control over their own broadcasting is inevitably vetoed.

Rolfe.

[mbp]

That sort of broadcasting devolution is absolute anathema to the unionist politicians and establishment.Aren't (some) sports a special case, though?
Because while I could imagine BBC Scotland and something like BBC London playing similar kinds of roles in most areas it wouldn't work for the World Cup. You'd need something England-wide for that and at the moment this doesn't (as far as I know) exist.
A bit like how there isn't a specifically English parliament I suppose.

[rwguinn]

Hell.
I'll even root for the damnYankees if they are playing a game against Japan, or Cuba, or anybody outside the US...

[LukeB]

And to think I thought England fans were whiny and insecure, Architect has opened my eyes. ABE looks less and less like good harmless fun, more and more like bitter resentment by the minute. And this is coming from someone that's also ABE and loathes the football coverage in this country...

[Ivor the Engineer]

That sort of broadcasting devolution is absolute anathema to the unionist politicians and establishment. People have been lobbying for years for a better arrangement, but anything that allows the smaller nations more control over their own broadcasting is inevitably vetoed.

Rolfe.

The problem you will have is that Broadcasting is a one to many service, where many individuals pay a few providers for exactly the same service. The BBC has tens of millions of households each pay it over £145 a year to produce its programmes. The commercial stations display adverts to tens of millions of people everyday.

What amount of quality TV do you think a SBC would be able to produce if its income was limited to £145 from a few million Scotish households? How much would advertisers pay to have their products seen by 5 million people compared to 50 million next door?

But hey, who cares if what's on TV in Scotland is crap (because that's all the TV companies could afford to buy in or produce), so long as it's 100% Scottish crap?

[Soapy Sam]

Ivor- I'm a non TV owner, but in my occasional encounters with it I get the impression it's mostly either Australian or American crap anyway-in fact, last cop show I saw on tv was either Finnish or Swedish.
The point is not that people want 100% nationalistic anything. They seem to be honestly upset by a perceived imbalance in sports reporting , largely by the BBC, which they perceive as out of proportion to the roughly 10:1 English / Scots ratio. They may be right or wrong- I really have no idea. My question remains- why do we feel a need to "support" national teams at all? Why is it OK for a Scot to choose to support Manchester United, but then be expected to support Scotland ?
And if Scotland do not qualify, but England, Wales , Norn'Irn and Eire do, in which order is the expected default support list? England first, obviously?

[Architect]

Same as my support list for northern hemisphere rugby : Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, (in that order).
;)

[Architect]

The problem you will have is that Broadcasting is a one to many service, where many individuals pay a few providers for exactly the same service. The BBC has tens of millions of households each pay it over £145 a year to produce its programmes. The commercial stations display adverts to tens of millions of people everyday.

What amount of quality TV do you think a SBC would be able to produce if its income was limited to £145 from a few million Scotish households? How much would advertisers pay to have their products seen by 5 million people compared to 50 million next door?

But hey, who cares if what's on TV in Scotland is crap (because that's all the TV companies could afford to buy in or produce), so long as it's 100% Scottish crap?

I don't think that anyone is asking for that, but rather an media equivalent of the West Lothian question.....

[Rolfe]

I think the constant news coverage that not only seems to think we're interested in another country's laws and administration but keeps referring to these things as "our" laws and administration, and constantly assumes not just that we're interested in the doings of another country's football team but keeps referring to it as "our" football team, gets a bit wearing.

Five minutes tacked on the end of the news "where you are" doesn't really cut it as a counterweight, particularly when at least three of these minutes are spent trying to redress the balance on the football front alone.

Rolfe.

[Uzzy]

Get a competitive football league and qualify for a major tournament and maybe, just maybe, Scottish football might justify more then a few minutes tacked on the end coverage.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Get a competitive football league and qualify for a major tournament and maybe, just maybe, Scottish football might justify more then a few minutes tacked on the end coverage.

The Scottish league is very competitive.

Celtic and Rangers compete each year to see which of them will come first and second.

[Damien Evans]

Get a competitive football league and qualify for a major tournament and maybe, just maybe, Scottish football might justify more then a few minutes tacked on the end coverage.

Celtic have made the last 16 of the champions league several times.

[funk de fino]

Hell.
I'll even root for the damnYankees if they are playing a game against Japan, or Cuba, or anybody outside the US...

ABS in my house

Anyone But the Sox

[funk de fino]

Get a competitive football league and qualify for a major tournament and maybe, just maybe, Scottish football might justify more then a few minutes tacked on the end coverage.

Now we are getting somewere. Last 16 Champs league or other European finals not good enough for you? Then again how many English players are there in the best teams down your way? How many English managers are there with your best teams. The best one has not even had a sniff at the England job.

Scotland were robbed in a recent qualifying competition against Italy after beating France twice. relistically we are alays going to be in a play off and if we get Holland then it is a tall order. Even the last playoff against England we beat them away and nearly got them. And it is not just football when it comes to national media.

ABE is a bit of fun to most people. Some take it further. Then again some England fans will be giving Nazi salutes on Sunday. We all have those sorts.

I was supporting England all the way at the T20. With cricket for me it's basically ABA. Anyone but Australia. England are my top team apart from Scotland. Although for a bit of banter with the English fans at the T20 previously we were cheering on Pakistan. No-one threw their teddies out the cot there.

If it good enough for Nelson Mandela (ABS) then it is good enough for me.

;)

[defaultdotxbe]

Get a competitive football league and qualify for a major tournament and maybe, just maybe, Scottish football might justify more then a few minutes tacked on the end coverage.
scotland, wales and northern ireland have all qualified for past world cups, but i would have to say a lot of the focus on the english team is because they are the only british team in the cup this time around

[Uzzy]

And when Celtic make the last 16 of the Champions League, they get coverage. Your average match in the SPL, however, doesn't get as much, given that the league, as I said, isn't competitive.

It's not all that watched either, outside of the Old Firm matches (which always get coverage as well). Here's the average attendance (http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/PR/attend.html) for the SPL clubs last season. Now, with the Old Firm clubs, you get an average attendance overall of 14,915, which is less then the average attendance (http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAttendance/0,,10794%7E20097,00.html) in the Championship, a whole 17,935 (though, they had Newcastle with a much greater average attendance then anyone else that year.)

Without them, it drops drastically to 7357, which is less then the average attendance (http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAttendance/0,,10794%7E200925,00.html) at Football League 1, sitting at 9148.

scotland, wales and northern ireland have all qualified for past world cups, but i would have to say a lot of the focus on the english team is because they are the only british team in the cup this time around

Bingo! When one of the home teams qualify, they get coverage during the tournament. When they don't, well.. I don't think we want to see Darren Fletcher's summer holiday snaps. Instead we can see the BBC football coverage concentrate on the one British team in the cup, England.

Basically, all I'm saying is that there are reasons other then dislike of the Scots that Scottish football gets little coverage on the national news.

[Shaun from Scotland]

The Scottish league is very competitive.

Celtic and Rangers compete each year to see which of them will come first and second.

Yeah - a bit like Chelsea and Man U

[funk de fino]

And when Celtic make the last 16 of the Champions League, they get coverage. Your average match in the SPL, however, doesn't get as much, given that the league, as I said, isn't competitive.

It's not all that watched either, outside of the Old Firm matches (which always get coverage as well). Here's the average attendance (http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/PR/attend.html) for the SPL clubs last season. Now, with the Old Firm clubs, you get an average attendance overall of 14,915, which is less then the average attendance (http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAttendance/0,,10794%7E20097,00.html) in the Championship, a whole 17,935 (though, they had Newcastle with a much greater average attendance then anyone else that year.)

Without them, it drops drastically to 7357, which is less then the average attendance (http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAttendance/0,,10794%7E200925,00.html) at Football League 1, sitting at 9148.

Which is irrelevant to competitiveness. Division 1 in Scotland is very competitive. I think argument by popularity is ot a good path to tread here mate. We have slightly less people to watch our Scottish league teams and our Highland league teams.

Bingo! When one of the home teams qualify, they get coverage during the tournament. When they don't, well.. I don't think we want to see Darren Fletcher's summer holiday snaps. Instead we can see the BBC football coverage concentrate on the one British team in the cup, England.

Basically, all I'm saying is that there are reasons other then dislike of the Scots that Scottish football gets little coverage on the national news.

So the fact that our little nation has only two teams, low crowds and do not qualify for the World Cup means that Waynes Rooneys possible injury can be leading story in our national news programmes and that is somehow acceptable?

Nice strawman with the dislike bit as well. I thought better of you on that front.

[funk de fino]

And when Celtic make the last 16 of the Champions League, they get coverage.

I also suggest you check up on recent broadcast decisions by the national terrestrial stations.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2009/09/05/exclusive-itv-bosses-black-out-coverage-of-rangers-champions-league-games-on-stv-86908-21649463/

FOOTBALL fans will miss seeing Rangers' European campaign on terrestrial telly because of a snub by ITV bosses.

London-based executives say they will show only Champions League games featuring English teams in their live Wednesday night slot - saying they want matches with the greatest UK-wide appeal.

And they failed to secure an opt-out to allow Scottish Television to show Rangers while fans south of the Border watch Liverpool or Arsenal.

Yes, yes, I know you said Celtic, but the point remains.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Yeah - a bit like Chelsea and Man U

Yeah, except look back over the decades and at least there is movement. Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal, etc have all threatened during the history of the Prem, and several teams have won it only recently.

Since 1985, 8 teams have alternated between first and second spots in the English league.

Since 1985, Celtic and Rangers have taken turns, uninterrupted.

The English league may be too static, but the Scottish league is appalling.

[funk de fino]

Yeah, except look back over the decades and at least there is movement. Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal, etc have all threatened during the history of the Prem, and several teams have won it only recently.

Since 1985, 8 teams have alternated between first and second spots in the English league.

Since 1985, Celtic and Rangers have taken turns, uninterrupted.

The English league may be too static, but the Scottish league is appalling.

Yes, nice sneaky avoidance of the Aberdeen glory years. How many second places have been taken by non old firm in those years? We have real football played by lots of Scots. How many English play for Chelsea or Arsenal week on week? Of course your league standard is rising because you are getting more foreigners.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Yes, nice sneaky avoidance of the Aberdeen glory years.

Since 1965, the Scottish league had an Aberdeen win in 1980, 1984, 1985.

Dundee United got a win in 1983.

Out of those 45 years, Rangers or Celtic won 42 times.


You probably should have just left it alone.

[Matthew Best]

How many English play for Chelsea or Arsenal week on week? Of course your league standard is rising because you are getting more foreigners.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Marcus]

I think the constant news coverage that not only seems to think we're interested in another country's laws and administration but keeps referring to these things as "our" laws and administration, and constantly assumes not just that we're interested in the doings of another country's football team but keeps referring to it as "our" football team, gets a bit wearing.

Five minutes tacked on the end of the news "where you are" doesn't really cut it as a counterweight, particularly when at least three of these minutes are spent trying to redress the balance on the football front alone.

Rolfe.

I'm curious about your sports coverage over there. Doesn't your local news cover the local teams?

As far as the games themselves, here each sports channel provides different games to different regions, does it work differently there?

Forgive me if I'm ignorant on this point, but I thought that the UK was a country, you seem to be saying it is not a country at all, but merely an association of seperate countries.

[funk de fino]

Since 1965, the Scottish league had an Aberdeen win in 1980, 1984, 1985.

Dundee United got a win in 1983.

Out of those 45 years, Rangers or Celtic won 42 times.


You probably should have just left it alone.

How many second places for non old firm? I note you left that alone. You are the one that started with the disparaging of our league and used sneaky stats. You talk about decades and then jumped into the middle of one.

I love the Premier league.

PS You cant count.

[funk de fino]

What does that have to do with anything?

Think about it. We are talking about coverage. From national media.

[Uzzy]

I looked at the article you mentioned, and it's clear that ITV secured the rights to one game every Wednesday. As they say themselves in that article. "We are a commercial broadcaster for the whole UK and the predominant factor is which game is going to have the greatest appeal to our audience." Also, it seems that it was an aberration, as previous years had seen ITV get a Scottish opt-out and be able to see Celtic/Rangers in the Champions League. Odd that they wouldn't have gotten one last year, and I think that's a shame. They certainly did get coverage on the national news, however, which was my original point.

It's surprising to see ITV go backwards on this as well, given that football coverage has in general improved on terrestrial TV. We get a lower league football show on BBC 1 after Match of the Day now.

And yes, the Premier League gets a lot of foreigners in, including many of the best foreign players in the world. Fabregas, Drogba, Torres, Tevez etc. It's a far more exciting league with several teams challenging for the top spot. Tottenham, Man City, Aston Villa and Everton have been in the mix in recent years, which should help lessen the advantage the big four have. The Premier League has a world wide appeal.

[Rolfe]

you seem to be saying it is not a country at all, but merely an association of seperate countries.


Pretty much. It's a state made up of four separate countries. One of these countries is ten times the size of the next-biggest, in population terms (though it's only about three times the size by area). Thus, even on a good day, everybody gets to watch the news and the sport for the biggest country, most of the time, even if it's not relevant. For example, lots of legal matters differ al lot, as does the operation of the health service and the education system.

"Local" news is a small opt-out period on TV, really designed for stuff like the local agricultural show and what's on at the amateur dramatic society. In the English regions, that's what you get in that time. In Scotland, all the actual news about the parliament and so on has to be squoze in, as well as the Scottish sports news. I have literally no idea when the local agricultural show will be, and I'll never find out from the TV.

Rolfe.

[Uzzy]

Well, since the formation of the SPL, only one team outside the Old Firm has finished 2nd, namely Hearts in 2005/6. And going by Wikipedia, here's some interesting figures.

Rangers: 53 Wins, 29 Runners Up
Celtic: 42 Wins, 30 Runners Up
Hearts: 4 Wins, 14 Runners Up
Aberdeen: 4 Wins, 13 Runners Up
Hibernian: 4 Wins, 6 Runners Up

I don't think you can claim that as a very competitive league, given results like that.

[funk de fino]

I looked at the article you mentioned, and it's clear that ITV secured the rights to one game every Wednesday. As they say themselves in that article. "We are a commercial broadcaster for the whole UK and the predominant factor is which game is going to have the greatest appeal to our audience." Also, it seems that it was an aberration, as previous years had seen ITV get a Scottish opt-out and be able to see Celtic/Rangers in the Champions League. Odd that they wouldn't have gotten one last year, and I think that's a shame. They certainly did get coverage on the national news, however, which was my original point.

It's surprising to see ITV go backwards on this as well, given that football coverage has in general improved on terrestrial TV. We get a lower league football show on BBC 1 after Match of the Day now.

And yes, the Premier League gets a lot of foreigners in, including many of the best foreign players in the world. Fabregas, Drogba, Torres, Tevez etc. It's a far more exciting league with several teams challenging for the top spot. Tottenham, Man City, Aston Villa and Everton have been in the mix in recent years, which should help lessen the advantage the big four have. The Premier League has a world wide appeal.

That is not the only year I have not been able to watch SPL teams in europe on national terrestrial TV while getting to watch Liverpool.

So Rooneys injury a wee while back was really national news story #1 or 2 material?

I am not disparaging the EPL. I am saying why the game is better. A few years ago Rangers and Celtic gave the English teams a spanking in the Battle of Britains. The setanta deal killed it here. Lower league teams in the EPL get many millions more from TV than arguably bigger teams like Rangers get from the TV deals. Is Blackpool, Hull etc better than the Old Firm? Bigger crowds and following and stadiums?

I think I would love to see Celtic and Rangers down south and many of the arguments made against it are pathetic.

[Jekyll's Guest]

How many second places for non old firm? I note you left that alone. You are the one that started with the disparaging of our league and used sneaky stats. You talk about decades and then jumped into the middle of one.

Since 1965, 13 clubs other than Man U and Chelsea have finished second in the English League. In the same time period, 4 clubs that weren't Rangers or Celtic finished second in the Scottish League.

I can post 'sneaky' stats all day, because they solidly show a static league.

[funk de fino]

Well, since the formation of the SPL, only one team outside the Old Firm has finished 2nd, namely Hearts in 2005/6.

Our statto here went back "decades" though didn't he? Feel free to explain why he went back to 85 or 65 and not 80 or 60.

[funk de fino]

Since 1965, 13 clubs other than Man U and Chelsea have finished second in the English League. In the same time period, 4 clubs that weren't Rangers or Celtic finished second in the Scottish League.

I can post 'sneaky' stats all day, because they solidly show a static league.

Keep going back to 60. Count our teams in the league. Sneaky beaky eh? 65 and 85? Sure no reason for that eh?

[Uzzy]

That is not the only year I have not been able to watch SPL teams in europe on national terrestrial TV while getting to watch Liverpool.

Which is a major shame. I think ITV's monetary problems might be to blame, however.

So Rooneys injury a wee while back was really national news story #1 or 2 material?

No, it really wasn't, and it never gives football a good name when stuff like that becomes major news.

I am not disparaging the EPL. I am saying why the game is better. A few years ago Rangers and Celtic gave the English teams a spanking in the Battle of Britains. The setanta deal killed it here. Lower league teams in the EPL get many millions more from TV than arguably bigger teams like Rangers get from the TV deals. Is Blackpool, Hull etc better than the Old Firm? Bigger crowds and following and stadiums?

I think I would love to see Celtic and Rangers down south and many of the arguments made against it are pathetic.

So would I. I think that Celtic and Rangers would do well in the EPL, or some sort of Atlantic League that gets discussed now and again. And yes, TV money has really screwed things over.

[funk de fino]

Well, since the formation of the SPL, only one team outside the Old Firm has finished 2nd, namely Hearts in 2005/6. And going by Wikipedia, here's some interesting figures.

Rangers: 53 Wins, 29 Runners Up
Celtic: 42 Wins, 30 Runners Up
Hearts: 4 Wins, 14 Runners Up
Aberdeen: 4 Wins, 13 Runners Up
Hibernian: 4 Wins, 6 Runners Up

I don't think you can claim that as a very competitive league, given results like that.

Now you are making stuff up. I said Division 1 was competitive. I am just questioning the sneaky use of stats to make it look worse than it is.

You have missed some by the way. I told you to go back to 1960.

[Rolfe]

I don't know why any of us bother watching the tennis at all. Federer and Nadal will split the top two places as usual, boring if you ask me....

Rolfe.

[funk de fino]

Which is a major shame. I think ITV's monetary problems might be to blame, however.

You can see why we may get upset sometimes then.

No, it really wasn't, and it never gives football a good name when stuff like that becomes major news.

As above. I have no isue with the EPL. I do not like people slagging off our game however. I did not come here mouthing off about the league or football down south. As citizens of the UK we should all realise how important fotball is in our lives and how things like that create angst.

So would I. I think that Celtic and Rangers would do well in the EPL, or some sort of Atlantic League that gets discussed now and again. And yes, TV money has really screwed things over.

It has to happen. I find it untenable that it is the chairmen of the clubs in England that get to vote on it. I would not even want straght into the EPL. I think a re-org where Rangers and Celtic went into Divison One (or whatever its called) would be fair if some other clubs were compensated.

[Uzzy]

1960's then. Here's the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_football_champions), by the way.

1960/61: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1961/62: Dundee, Rangers
1962/63: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1963/64: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1964/65: Kilmarnock, Hearts
1965/66: Celtic, Rangers
1966/67: Celtic, Rangers
1967/68: Celtic, Rangers
1968/69: Celtic, Rangers
1969/70: Celtic, Rangers

It's good to see that Killie did well back then. Anyway, are you meaning the old or new Division 1?

[Jekyll's Guest]

Our statto here went back "decades" though didn't he? Feel free to explain why he went back to 85 or 65 and not 80 or 60.

Since 1890 (The start of the Scottish league), Celtic or Rangers have won the Scottish League 95 times.

In the same time period, Man U and Chelsea have won 22 times.

[Jekyll's Guest]

As above. I have no isue with the EPL. I do not like people slagging off our game however. I did not come here mouthing off about the league or football down south. As citizens of the UK we should all realise how important fotball is in our lives and how things like that create angst.

If I believed in woo, I'd be looking for you being struck by lightning.

In a thread lauding the Scots for cheering on an English loss in the world cup, you have the audacity to post this?

[Steve]

I don't know why any of us bother watching the tennis at all. ......snip
Rolfe.

My feelings exactly :D

[Matthew Best]

Think about it. We are talking about coverage. From national media.

I guess your point is that the English league isn't really particularly English at all - it's much more international with mostly foreign players. Therefore, er, ..... something. :confused:

[Marcus]

Pretty much. It's a state made up of four separate countries. One of these countries is ten times the size of the next-biggest, in population terms (though it's only about three times the size by area). Thus, even on a good day, everybody gets to watch the news and the sport for the biggest country, most of the time, even if it's not relevant. For example, lots of legal matters differ al lot, as does the operation of the health service and the education system.

"Local" news is a small opt-out period on TV, really designed for stuff like the local agricultural show and what's on at the amateur dramatic society. In the English regions, that's what you get in that time. In Scotland, all the actual news about the parliament and so on has to be squoze in, as well as the Scottish sports news. I have literally no idea when the local agricultural show will be, and I'll never find out from the TV.

Rolfe.

Ours is definitely overkill, there is one channel which carries nothing but local (citywide) news 24/7, and four other local stations with an hour or so of news a day. It sounds like you could use a few more channels though.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Ours is definitely overkill, there is one channel which carries nothing but local (citywide) news 24/7, and four other local stations with an hour or so of news a day. It sounds like you could use a few more channels though.

Britain has had cable and satellite since the 90's, and just about everyone has them.

[funk de fino]

1960's then. Here's the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_football_champions), by the way.

1960/61: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1961/62: Dundee, Rangers
1962/63: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1963/64: Rangers, Kilmarnock
1964/65: Kilmarnock, Hearts
1965/66: Celtic, Rangers
1966/67: Celtic, Rangers
1967/68: Celtic, Rangers
1968/69: Celtic, Rangers
1969/70: Celtic, Rangers

It's good to see that Killie did well back then. Anyway, are you meaning the old or new Division 1?

I am just noting the fact our statto used years that coincidentally came just after some non Old Firm stuff. Strange he would do that IMO.

[funk de fino]

Since 1890 (The start of the Scottish league), Celtic or Rangers have won the Scottish League 95 times.

In the same time period, Man U and Chelsea have won 22 times.

Have you checked your figures this time? Thats all you had to do initially instead of trying to be sneaky about it.

Apples and oranges mate and you still do not get it.

[funk de fino]

If I believed in woo, I'd be looking for you being struck by lightning.

In a thread lauding the Scots for cheering on an English loss in the world cup, you have the audacity to post this?

In a thread that I have made my position clear on the ABE. I have not slated the English game. I have not tried to mislead by cherry picking stats.

There is a difference between banter and denigrating other peoples leagues. Especially from a position of ignorance.

PS - You need to be careful about your first sentence in that post. It could be misconstrued.

[Marcus]

Britain has had cable and satellite since the 90's, and just about everyone has them.
I figured that, I was just thinking that maybe there should be some Scottish news and sports channels. None of my business, of course, I just looked in on this thread thinking there might be some World Cup discussion.

[Jekyll's Guest]

There is a difference between banter and denigrating other peoples leagues. Especially from a position of ignorance.

PS - You need to be careful about your first sentence in that post. It could be misconstrued.

Banter = smack talk, by Scots.
Slander = smack talk backed by stats, from the English.

I'm done repeatedly pulling up stats, just to be told there is something wrong with them. Every date I picked was sneaky or cherry picking, then when I went back to the very beginning of the leagues, it became apples and oranges.

You've moved the goal posts so often, the Scottish national team could qualify by scoring between them. ;)


If anyone could misconstrue that last sentence, then they'd be trying very hard, possibly with English not being their first language. It's a well known saying, worded unambiguously, and I'm not Tesla.

Although I do have a Doomsday device.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Also, at the risk of repeating something said many times in this thread, lots of people don't consider A.B.E. to be banter, but rather mean spirited English bashing.

[funk de fino]

I figured that, I was just thinking that maybe there should be some Scottish news and sports channels. None of my business, of course, I just looked in on this thread thinking there might be some World Cup discussion.

We have local versions of some channels. Same as regional variations in England. These have been slowly worn down to the point there only a few.

And example is BBC Scotland where we will get slightly different programming than England. The national news will be the same on all locations. So if Wayne Rooney gets a wee injury a few months before the World Cup it will be first story on the evening news all over the UK.

You really have to have had a good few years of John Motson, Nick Coleman and Martin Tyler to get a sense of this.

I have just seen a UK Sky journo asking a German player at a news conference if he saw three lions on the safari he was on. The Germans are non plussed about England obsession with them, their big rivals and derby is the Dutch.

[funk de fino]

Banter = smack talk, by Scots.
Slander = smack talk backed by stats, from the English.

Lets see my smack talk about English football then? You started this slagging of Scottish football mate.

I'm done repeatedly pulling up stats , just to be told there is something wrong with them. Every date I picked was sneaky or cherry picking, then when I went back to the very beginning of the leagues, it became apples and oranges.

Cherry picking them to make them worse - twice.

You've moved the goal posts so often, the Scottish national team could qualify by scoring between them. ;)

I just wanted you to stop being sneaky and slagging off my game.

If anyone could misconstrue that last sentence, then they'd be trying very hard, possibly with English not being their first language. It's a well known saying, worded unambiguously, and I'm not Tesla.

I have seen people warned/banned for similar type posts. Doesnt bother me but I am just saying I have seen it.

[Jekyll's Guest]

I actually have a trade to offer.

We'll petition the BBC for better local Scottish football coverage, if you promise to take back all the Scottish pundits that infest English football coverage :)

[funk de fino]

Also, at the risk of repeating something said many times in this thread, lots of people don't consider A.B.E. to be banter, but rather mean spirited English bashing.

Then they are idiots. Probably the same types who will be dishing out Nazi salutes at the game on Sunday and calling it banter. Or banging along to the Great Escape. Or singing "Are ou Scotland in disguise". We all have idiots but the ABE thing is banter. If others co-opt that to bash England and English football then more fool them. See anyone doing that?

PS - One of those lets delete stuff from the posts I cannot deal with types eh? That figures.

[funk de fino]

I actually have a trade to offer.

We'll petition the BBC for better local Scottish football coverage, if you promise to take back all the Scottish pundits that infest English football coverage :)

What about our managers too?

You are missing the point a bit. It is not so much about the lack of Scottish stuff it is the excess England stuff sometimes.

[Marcus]

Rolfe, if it's really ABE, then you must have been cheering for the US during the England/US game.:)

How about the French crashing and burning, that was rather amazing to watch.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Same as my support list for northern hemisphere rugby : Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, (in that order).
;)


I don't like the ignore facility on principle, but sometimes there are posters who really push me to the edge.....

I mean, Wales??

[Architect]

Well, I once designed a lovely little museum in Wales and rather liked the area.

[funk de fino]

Rolfe, if it's really ABE, then you must have been cheering for the US during the England/US game.:)

I was in a bar in Lafayette, LA doing exactly that. While watching the Astros get their asses handed to them as well.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Lets see my smack talk about English football then? You started this slagging of Scottish football mate.

You're a proud member of the hilarious A.B.E. movement. It's called rubbing people up the wrong way.

Cherry picking them to make them worse - twice.

Stats are ALWAYS cherry picked. You'd have picked years where there was a blip of wins by other teams, and used that to dilute the overall situation. That's why stats can be useful but should always be taken with a pinch of salt. The fact remains, there are horrible stats to cherry pick. No smoke without fire.

I just wanted you to stop being sneaky and slagging off my game.

I don't find the stats particularly sneaky. 2 teams have dominated your league spectacularly since it's inception.

It also doesn't seem to win many European titles, or produce strong national teams.

That's all fine though. My home team hasn't won silverware since the age of the dinosaurs, and hasn't had a decent coach or players in over a decade. It's ok to love second raters.

I have seen people warned/banned for similar type posts. Doesnt bother me but I am just saying I have seen it.

Maybe similar in that if you change out a few words it becomes a wish for your harm, but it doesn't have those words. It's a quite common phrase I was brought up using.

If I said "I've always been a massive fan of Scottish football!" next week, I'd glance up for the flash myself. :)

[Jekyll's Guest]

What about our managers too?

You are missing the point a bit. It is not so much about the lack of Scottish stuff it is the excess England stuff sometimes.

When they have the first moon based league their will be Scottish managers. They're like rats on sailing vessels :D

Britain is football mad. It sells to the knuckleheads, and the majority of football knuckleheads are English by sheer population.

Try being English and not supporting the top 3 big clubs, it's just as tedious for most of us, believe me.

[Rolfe]

Rolfe, if it's really ABE, then you must have been cheering for the US during the England/US game.:)


If you'd been in the thread from the start, you'd realise I'd rather have root canal treatment without anaesthetic than watch a football match. I wasn't even aware what time it was on. I heard the result while listening to the news on the radio.

How about the French crashing and burning, that was rather amazing to watch.


The French I was watching (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8757259.stm) was generally agreed to have done rather well, actually....

Rolfe.

[rwguinn]

I don't know why any of us bother watching the tennis at all. Federer and Nadal will split the top two places as usual, boring if you ask me....

Rolfe.
And people pan NASCAR. gofastturnleft.
At least they have a wreck every now and again...

[Marcus]

If you'd been in the thread from the start, you'd realise I'd rather have root canal treatment without anaesthetic than watch a football match. I wasn't even aware what time it was on. I heard the result while listening to the news on the radio.




The French I was watching (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8757259.stm) was generally agreed to have done rather well, actually....

Rolfe.
Darn, that title fooled me, it looked like a World Cup thread.

You watched that 10 hour tennis match? You've got more patience than I do.

[Rolfe]

Nah, I was at work while most of it was on.

ABE is totally a tennis meme, considering whose fault it is. Before that, the t-shirts read "I support two teams, Scotland and whoever's playing England", and it didn't have the same snap.

Today, I heard the Scot and the Canadian continuing their discussion. "I'm really glad England got through the group stages so I can watch them getting hammered by Germany" might have been one of the milder comments....

Rolfe.

[funk de fino]

You're a proud member of the hilarious A.B.E. movement. It's called rubbing people up the wrong way.

No, its banter. That you take it otherwise is the funny part.

Stats are ALWAYS cherry picked. You'd have picked years where there was a blip of wins by other teams, and used that to dilute the overall situation. That's why stats can be useful but should always be taken with a pinch of salt. The fact remains, there are horrible stats to cherry pick. No smoke without fire.

I never started this crap. You tried to back up a snarky claim with misleading stats.

I don't find the stats particularly sneaky. 2 teams have dominated your league spectacularly since it's inception.

Purposefully misleading ws not needed then. Or your schooboy arithmetic.

It also doesn't seem to win many European titles, or produce strong national teams.

First British European Cup winners with a full Scots team. There are only 5 million of us. We do OK.

That's all fine though. My home team hasn't won silverware since the age of the dinosaurs, and hasn't had a decent coach or players in over a decade. It's ok to love second raters.

Jog on.

Maybe similar in that if you change out a few words it becomes a wish for your harm, but it doesn't have those words. It's a quite common phrase I was brought up using.

Just saying.

If I said "I've always been a massive fan of Scottish football!" next week, I'd glance up for the flash myself. :)

Meh

[funk de fino]

When they have the first moon based league their will be Scottish managers. They're like rats on sailing vessels :D

Britain is football mad. It sells to the knuckleheads, and the majority of football knuckleheads are English by sheer population.

Try being English and not supporting the top 3 big clubs, it's just as tedious for most of us, believe me.

Listen, I follow Sunderland. Could be worse though, it could be Newcastle.

[Jekyll's Guest]

I miscounted a tally by 1 year, because of my three year old clambering up my back while I was looking it up. Rather than just correct me, you've snootily brought it up twice, like it invalidates something. Maybe you can correct a spelling error next, proving once and for all that my every utterance is wrong.

Truly sad and desperate.

[Matthew Best]

Truly sad and desperate.

That's the Scotch for you!

[Jekyll's Guest]

You know what Funk? While I stand by the stats, things have gotten too personal.

Giz a kiss, wee man!

<Benny Hill music>

[mbp]

I think I would love to see Celtic and Rangers down south and many of the arguments made against it are pathetic.What are the arguments for it - other than that they'd like to get more TV money?

Wouldn't it be like one or two of the biggest Danish clubs demanding to be allowed to play in the Bundesliga? I'm sure they'd like the increased revenue, but I don't see why the Germans should even entertain the idea.

[Rolfe]

That's what I think too, but then my opinion doesn't really count, since, well, root canal and all that....

Rolfe.

[Architect]

Wouldn't it be like one or two of the biggest Danish clubs demanding to be allowed to play in the Bundesliga? I'm sure they'd like the increased revenue, but I don't see why the Germans should even entertain the idea.

I agree with you mate, no arguments here.

[Damien Evans]

Yes, nice sneaky avoidance of the Aberdeen glory years. How many second places have been taken by non old firm in those years? We have real football played by lots of Scots. How many English play for Chelsea or Arsenal week on week? Of course your league standard is rising because you are getting more foreigners.

Whereas Scott McDonald and Jan Vennegor were so Scottish.:D




ETA: Obviously, McDonald has scottish ancestry..

[lionking]

It's going to be hard supporting Germany, but I think I'm up for it.

[commandlinegamer]

It's going to be hard supporting Germany, but I think I'm up for it.

This may help:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/german%20women/fastestsquirrel/Oktoberfest.jpg

[Uzzy]

I'm going to enjoy seeing Architect with an Argentinian flag as his new avatar after Sunday.

[funk de fino]

What are the arguments for it - other than that they'd like to get more TV money?

Wouldn't it be like one or two of the biggest Danish clubs demanding to be allowed to play in the Bundesliga? I'm sure they'd like the increased revenue, but I don't see why the Germans should even entertain the idea.

It would be like Welsh clubs playing in England. Could never be allowed to happen. Wait a minute...................

Ranger and Celtic are huge clubs with huge support not only in the UK but worldwide. Blackpool are not.

It would be good for both parties

[funk de fino]

I miscounted a tally by 1 year, because of my three year old clambering up my back while I was looking it up. Rather than just correct me, you've snootily brought it up twice, like it invalidates something. Maybe you can correct a spelling error next, proving once and for all that my every utterance is wrong.

Truly sad and desperate.

It did, your figures were incorrect with that amount of years.

Lets end this. I'll stop not slagging off the EPl if you stop slagging off the SPL.

[funk de fino]

Whereas Scott McDonald and Jan Vennegor were so Scottish.:D

ETA: Obviously, McDonald has scottish ancestry..

Lets not look at percentage of homegrown players in the leagues.

They do not play in Scotland anymore. They play in England.

Ho ho.

[Architect]

I'm going to enjoy seeing Architect with an Argentinian flag as his new avatar after Sunday.

Remembering as I do the Falklands War, I have to admit that it'll be a tough one if it gets that far.....

[commandlinegamer]

Cephalopod predicts a German win:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/10420131.stm

[funk de fino]

Remembering as I do the Falklands War, I have to admit that it'll be a tough one if it gets that far.....

No way, their manager is a God.

:rolleyes:

[Ian Osborne]

Cephalopod predicts a German win:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/10420131.stm

From author and Reginald Perrin creator David Nobbs' Twitter feed: "A psychic octopus predicts a German win, and that's news on Ceefax. Ridiculous. I'm putting three hundred squid on England."

[commandlinegamer]

No way, their manager is a God.

:rolleyes:

Indeed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7732346.stm

[Damien Evans]

Lets not look at percentage of homegrown players in the leagues.

They do not play in Scotland anymore. They play in England.

Ho ho.

I know that, but they're the only foreign two Celtic players names I knew off the top of my head.

[Architect]

No way, their manager is a God.

:rolleyes:



Well, it would be fair to say that God had a hand in it somewhere.....

;)

[funk de fino]

I know that, but they're the only foreign two Celtic players names I knew off the top of my head.

Ironically you could have said Aiden McGeady even though he is Scottish.

[mbp]

It would be like Welsh clubs playing in England. Could never be allowed to happen. The fact that some anomalies exist is not in itself an argument either for or against introducing new ones.


Ranger and Celtic are huge clubs with huge support not only in the UK but worldwide. Blackpool are not.And if Ajax and PSV want to join the party? Would that be any different?

It would be good for both partiesDepends on what their objectives are. And isn't it for the members of a league to decide what's good for it?

When a new English club wants to join an existing English league they also often have to be voted in by the existing members - even very far down the league pyramid.

[Architect]

Of course, in Scotland we already allow a non-domestic team to play in our league structure.

[Parsman]

Only until independence Architect, then we are taking Berwick back.

And Bonnie Prince Charlie did make it as far south as Derby :D

[Jaggy Bunnet]

It's going to be hard supporting Germany, but I think I'm up for it.

Made much easier for me this morning by EBC Radio 5 (which broadcasts to the entirety of the Britain, not just little Englandshire) thinking it was hugely witty to have the presenter shout "It's got nothing to do with them/you" every time a Scottish person was mentioned. Wonder if he will do the same next week every time an English person says anything if they have been knocked out? Or would that be somehow different?

[Architect]

No, no, no.......it's only racist and unacceptable if the Celtic home nations do it.

Surprisingly unbiased commentary for the match right now, isn't it (cough cough)?

[zooterkin]

Surprisingly unbiased commentary for the match right now, isn't it (cough cough)?

While I sympathise with your point about the coverage of English matters in Scotland, do you seriously expect an unbiased commentary on this or any other match a home nation plays?

[Damien Evans]

No, no, no.......it's only racist and unacceptable if the Celtic home nations do it.

Surprisingly unbiased commentary for the match right now, isn't it (cough cough)?

Yeah, we're getting the same feed down here.

Wish they'd bloody shut up about 66.



HAHA, EGNLAND DENIED A LEGITIMATE GOAL!!! Yes!:D

[Lothian]

Yeah, we're getting the same feed down here.

Wish they'd bloody shut up about 66.



HAHA, EGNLAND DENIED A LEGITIMATE GOAL!!! Yes!:DI used psychic powers to temporarily blind the linesman and Ref. I will officially apologise (http://www.urigeller.com/articles/football/allister.html) to Lamps later.

[Architect]

While I sympathise with your point about the coverage of English matters in Scotland, do you seriously expect an unbiased commentary on this or any other match a home nation plays?

McLaren always did a fine job of it in the rugby; let's assume, though, that he was a cut above most of the buffoons we get now (on all sides).

I don't grudge the English their jingo-ism this time, but it's speactaculary insulat and quite funny. What I'll object to is the saturation coverage the EBC will have on this for the next 24 hours or so.

Rednap snr is doing a not bad job of pointing out you were p**s poor for the first 35 minutes. Old Gary, on the other hand, can talki about nothing but the disalllowed goal (which was clearly in).

[defaultdotxbe]

Yeah, we're getting the same feed down here.

Wish they'd bloody shut up about 66.



HAHA, EGNLAND DENIED A LEGITIMATE GOAL!!! Yes!:D
which means the scots are going to have to spend the next 4 years hearing about how england was robbed :p

[Architect]

Aye, but at least we'll see it in colour. The 1966 stuff is all in b&w. Thank goodness for Maradonna and the hand of God, otherwise I'd have thought I was going colour blind.

[zooterkin]

McLaren always did a fine job of it in the rugby; let's assume, though, that he was a cut above most of the buffoons we get now (on all sides).

I think matches between home nations are clearly different.

ETA: Also, large proportion of the rugby union matches on TV are between the home nations, or in a competition in which all the home nations are competing, so the required lack of bias tends to carry over to those matches where only one home side competes.

[Architect]

I think you want to remember what Mclaren was like for any match, home nation derby or not.

[zooterkin]

I think you want to remember what Mclaren was like for any match, home nation derby or not.

McLaren was a wonderful exception, and rugby is not the same as football.

If Scotland were playing in the World Cup, would you really expect a neutral commentary?

[Ian Osborne]

When you qualify for anything significant and don't get fair dibs on the commentary, then you can moan. In the meantime, just shut up.

[Architect]

When you qualify for anything significant and don't get fair dibs on the commentary, then you can moan. In the meantime, just shut up.

Aww bless, I can see you didn't bother reading my post properly. I thought the bit where I said I didn't grudge you your Engerland jingoism was quite clear, but never mind.

C'mon Germany!

[zooterkin]

Aww bless, I can see you didn't bother reading my post properly. I thought the bit where I said I didn't grudge you your Engerland jingoism was quite clear, but never mind.


The sincerity of that remark was somewhat called into question when you made this more recent one:


Surprisingly unbiased commentary for the match right now, isn't it (cough cough)?

[Ian Osborne]

If you want unbiased commentary, why not turn down the sound on your goggle box and listen to an internet feed from a neutral country's sports station? Just a thought.

[Architect]

That'll be why I referred to the jingoism, eh?

I note, for example, that the commentators are strangely blind to the fact that your defence parts like the Red Sea whenever the Germans get close. Likewise the references to a "guilt" yellow card, when it was a perfectly cardable offence.

YES! 3-1.

[Architect]

If you want unbiased commentary, why not turn down the sound on your goggle box and listen to an internet feed from a neutral country's sports station? Just a thought.

I can't find the RTE feed and although good, my German isn't fluent enough to follow theirs.

That was an absolutely corking goal, BTW. So far the commentators are mainly finding abysmal excuses for the goalkeeper. personally I don't think many - any? - goalies would be fast enough for that.


Your defence is absolutely crap, I have to say.

[Architect]

4-1!?! Has your defence gone home?

Well, they're not going to blame this result on the crap decision to disallow a perfectly good goal.

[Ian Osborne]

The commentators have criticised England's defence throughout the match, and how can decrying a yellow card for a German show bias towards England? Twelve years in the footballing wilderness has addled your common sense.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9324/35814444629291426155734.jpg

[Architect]

I can tell you're upset about the better team beating you, and no-one is arguing your goal was over the line, but you've clearly got your Jimmy Greaves Goggles on when it comes to the commentary.

[zooterkin]

4-1!?! Has your defence gone home?

At least they made to South Africa in the first place. ;)

Well, they're not going to blame this result on the crap decision to disallow a perfectly good goal.

If England had been level, as they should have been, then, yes, the game could well have gone differently since they would not have been so desperate to score again, and committing so many men forward that they couldn't defend against a counter attack.

[Architect]

If England had been level, as they should have been, then, yes, the game could well have gone differently since they would not have been so desperate to score again, and committing so many men forward that they couldn't defend against a counter attack.

Perhaps, but it's just as likely to have gone down the same way. Face it, they're completely outplaying you.

[Professor Yaffle]

I was just at the swing park with my kids, and one of the kids that was there said to another one: "C'mon - are ye no gauntae watch the Nazis beat the wankers?"

:D

[zooterkin]

Perhaps, but it's just as likely to have gone down the same way. Face it, they're completely outplaying you.

I'm not denying it; oddly, neither are the highly biased commentators.

[Ian Osborne]

Yes, it looks like we'll have to content ourselves with going only one match further than any Scottish side in World Cup history.

If they beat us today, I hope Germany go all the way. They're playing attractive, exciting football, with a reading of the game that belies their experience.

[Architect]

I was just at the swing park with my kids, and one of the kids that was there said to another one: "C'mon - are ye no gauntae watch the Nazis beat the wankers?"


Aye, well, you've got to be consistent in your application of prejudices!

Yes, it looks like we'll have to content ourselves with going only one match further than any Scottish side in World Cup history.

Country of 5 million people. C'est la vie.

I'm not denying it; oddly, neither are the highly biased commentators.

I'll give you this, they've finally stopped mentioning the disallowed goal.

[commandlinegamer]

I was listening to a commentator just before the match saying how England would win because Germany were such an inexperience team.

Is there an English word for Schadenfreude?

[MarkCorrigan]

I was listening to a commentator just before the match saying how England would win because Germany were such an inexperience team.

Is there an English word for Schadenfreude?
Wasn't Kevin Keegan was it?

I just want to draw the attention in this thread to my rant (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6072526&postcount=1942) in the other World Cup thread.

Well done Germany.

[Architect]

I was on a plane back from George Best Belfast City Airport on Thursday and noted on arrival at Glasgow that the plane was called Kevin Keegan. I was amazed it got us to it's destination - first for everything - and kept thinking how is commentaries were almost s bad as his perms......

[Damien Evans]

Aww, now I have to find someone else to barrack against...