ABE: World Cup 2010 / "Anyone but England"

[Architect]

The ABE movement; innocent(ish) rivalry, understandable ire on the part of the celtic home nations at the pervasive jingo-ism flooding the media, or grossly unacceptable racism/sour grapes from those who didn't make the cup?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8733373.stm

Personal view? Fed up of this kind of crap:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3007569/Fly-the-flag-for-England-with-The-Sun.html

They've got adverts all over the place, not least Virgin 1. And they're not the only ones.

[funk de fino]

But Premier David Cameron vowed to back Our Boys in South Africa.

He told the Commons: "At no additional cost to the taxpayer, the flag of St George will fly above Downing Street during the World Cup."

I am on the ABE march here in Lafayette, Louisiana where I will be supporting the USA tomorrow in the game.

Just a laugh for me. Shame other people can't see it that way.

[Giz]

From the BBC:

As the World Cup kicks off, many football fans from the UK's celtic nations say they will support ABE - Anyone But England.

To plenty of England supporters, the phenomenon is an unseemly grudge-fuelled display of bitterness by those with an inferior international record.

Meanwhile, to a certain breed of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish fans, it is either a natural expression of friendly rivalry with one's near-neighbours or a necessary corrective to the perceived arrogance of an English-dominated media, which appears not to be able to discuss a soccer tournament without copious references to Bobby Moore and 1966.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8733373.stm


(Seems to me a bit like someone going to their school sports day and supporting anyone except their brother).

Anyhow, I am going to go out on a limb here - is there anyone other than the Scottish/Welsh Nationalists doing this? (As in, do any Scottish unionists feel this way?)

[Lothian]

As a Scottish unionist I find the whole Anyone But England thing a bit petty.











GO USA

[Giz]

That will be an fun game - watching it with my American fiancee and some (American) friends. (Not that many of them will care too much; in the South 'Football' is something college kids play with their hands)

[Ian Osborne]

What's really annoying is when jocks who live south of the border support England's opponents. Over the course of my lifetime, I've met a lot of people whose cultural or ethic origins lie outside the UK, and also a fair few people who have spent time living and working abroad. Without a single non-Scottish exception, they all support their adopted country as at least a second team.

[lionking]

Anyhow, I am going to go out on a limb here - is there anyone other than the Scottish/Welsh Nationalists doing this?

Former colonies as well. ;)

[Lensman]

I'm Welsh I don't like sports of any kind, but if I was a footie fan I'd support England against any non-British team.

[sts75]

You yanks will be able to support england in the semis and the final seeing as how your team will no longer be in the competition.
Will you ??.
What about the britain/american special friendship.
Lets face it, no mutual deaths for oil, no special relationship.

[Tatyana]

I love the World Cup.

[Naddig74]

You yanks will be able to support england in the semis and the final seeing as how your team will no longer be in the competition.
.


That's kind of the reason the Scots especially are ABE. There's virtually no chance Scotland will get past the first round...just like always :D Remember Del Amitri's 'Don't Come Home too Soon?'

To be fair, we have similar prejudices in England...if France or Germany are playing we will _always_ cheer for their opponents, whoever they be. We don't have to be like that about Scotland because...well, see above :p

[geni]

In fairness it's not unknown for england to do much the same with it's arch rivals. England also has a statisticaly improbable number of Arch rivals.

[plumjam]

When I was 7 I greatly enjoyed supporting Scotland in the 1978 World Cup (England didn't qualify).
It took me a few more years to learn of the true nature and extent of Scottish petty-mindedness.

[Architect]

From the BBC:

As the World Cup kicks off, many football fans from the UK's celtic nations say they will support ABE - Anyone But England.

To plenty of England supporters, the phenomenon is an unseemly grudge-fuelled display of bitterness by those with an inferior international record.

Meanwhile, to a certain breed of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish fans, it is either a natural expression of friendly rivalry with one's near-neighbours or a necessary corrective to the perceived arrogance of an English-dominated media, which appears not to be able to discuss a soccer tournament without copious references to Bobby Moore and 1966.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8733373.stm


(Seems to me a bit like someone going to their school sports day and supporting anyone except their brother).

Anyhow, I am going to go out on a limb here - is there anyone other than the Scottish/Welsh Nationalists doing this? (As in, do any Scottish unionists feel this way?)

Beat you to it, and in the correct topic.

[Architect]

When I was 7 I greatly enjoyed supporting Scotland in the 1978 World Cup (England didn't qualify).
It took me a few more years to learn of the true nature and extent of Scottish petty-mindedness.

Yes, because English petty-mindedness is soooo much better. See, for example, any BBC sports piece or SUN advert.

[Naddig74]

Yes, because English petty-mindedness is soooo much better. See, for example, any BBC sports piece or SUN advert.

The best thing about sports reporting here is the way sportspeople can miraculously change nationality depending on how they are doing. Remember Liz McColgan? (sp?) When she was in fourth place or further back she was a Scot...as soon as it looked like she might get a medal she was British.

Credential Establishment: My mother is a Scot, and my father is a yorkshireman. In the same world champs I competed for England and Scotland. And I gave myself a proper kicking, tartan wearing sassenach bam that I am. :D

[funk de fino]

When I was 7 I greatly enjoyed supporting Scotland in the 1978 World Cup (England didn't qualify).
It took me a few more years to learn of the true nature and extent of Scottish petty-mindedness.

That's exactly the kind if thing that causes it. SOHF.

Lets face it, a lot of people, especially when it comes to football, hate the English. They canny all be wrong eh?

I dont hate them, I like getting in on the ABE thing exactly because it hoses off the useful idiots who can't take a joke. I support England at the cricket unless they are playing footie as do most of my cricket buddies. Football - never. Ever. Too much fun to be had.

[plumjam]

Yes, because English petty-mindedness is soooo much better. See, for example, any BBC sports piece or SUN advert.

The problem is, by so automatically wanting England to do badly, the Scots freely choose and acknowledge a position of natural inferiority.
But, then again, most of 'em likewise freely choose to remain living in Scotland, (thus condemning themselves to an existence dominated by tobacco, sugar, batter and tight-fistedness) so it's not such a surprise.
;):D

[Soapy Sam]

I have no interest whatever in watching other people play sports.
But as a true Scotsman, I think it would be hilariously funny if the Yanks win.

[lionking]

We Aussies are hopelessly conflicted whenever our antipodean cousins, the Kiwis, play England in anything. We usually hope for a nil-all draw with a heap of injuries.

[malbui]

We Aussies are hopelessly conflicted whenever our antipodean cousins, the Kiwis, play England in anything. We usually hope for a nil-all draw with a heap of injuries.


I'd never hope for injuries to players... my dream when two teams I despise play each other is always to see the match abandoned because of the number of sendings-off and then both sides seriously sanctioned by the authorities.

[lionking]

I'd never hope for injuries to players... my dream when two teams I despise play each other is always to see the match abandoned because of the number of sendings-off and then both sides seriously sanctioned by the authorities.
Yeah, even better, as the sendings off would have been the result of deliberate injuries to opponents. :D

[commandlinegamer]

For those English who never stop going on about 1966: just remind them that Scotland beat them the following year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/sportscotland/asportingnation/article/0022/print.shtml

[Naddig74]

:DBut, then again, most of 'em likewise freely choose to remain living in Scotland, (thus condemning themselves to an existence dominated by tobacco, sugar, batter and tight-fistedness) so it's not such a surprise.
;):D

I can't believe you left out alcohol! :D

[Debaser]

We Aussies are hopelessly conflicted whenever our antipodean cousins, the Kiwis, play England in anything. We usually hope for a nil-all draw with a heap of injuries.

Paralleled in England by Germany vs. Argentina.

The only rule change football needs it to have some means whereby both teams can simultaneously lose, for just such an occasion.

[Debaser]

From the linked article;
Meanwhile, to a certain breed of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish fans, it is either a natural expression of friendly rivalry with one's near-neighbours or a necessary corrective to the perceived arrogance of an English-dominated media, which appears not to be able to discuss a soccer tournament without copious references to Bobby Moore and 1966.

Which contrasts sharply with the attitude we can expect from Scotland or Wales when they win the World Cup :confused:, which will be 'quiet pride' for four years and then, when they get knocked out in the qualifiers for the next one, a 'no nonsense' dismissal from the collective memory never to be mentioned again.

Bravo sirs!! :eek:

I have to say, it does wind you up when you switch on the TV and hear about 'England expects'

"We're on the march wi' Ally's Army,
We're going tae the Argentine,
And we'll really shake them up,
When we win the World Cup,
'Cos Scotland is the greatest football team,

We're representing Britain,
And we're gaunny do or die,
England cannae dae it,
'Cos they didnae qualify!

We're on the march wi' Ally's Army,
We're going tae the Argentine,
And we'll really shake them up,
When we win the World Cup,
'Cos Scotland is the greatest football team"

What's the word..tip of my tongue...hypocrisy, or hubris...or just both?

Never arrogance...never, ever accuse a Scot of that, that's the English disease.:rolleyes:


I'm English, but I still "support" (if that is the word) ABE on the straightforward grounds that an early exit for the England team minimises the amount of vandalism and violence associated with any given tournament. I still haven't forgotten the national shame of a Russian student (not a football fan) being stabbed to death in Brighton during Euro '96 simply because a group of England fans thought he had a German accent.
Ian Kemmish, Biggleswade

And I'm sure that for similar reasons of limiting violence he's also ABT (Anyone But Turkey), ABP (Anyone But Poland), ABN (Anyone But Netherlands), etc, etc, etc.

However, this time I will be an ABE. Why? Because I have a moral abhorrence of the on-the-record politics of the England manager who believes that General Franco was a jolly sound chap who did marvellous things for Spain. Too many of our ancestors have perished fighting the ideals that the England manager holds dear so, much as it pains me to do so, I will hope that England leave asap and then follow tradition by sacking him.
Dave, Newport

Wonder if his 'moral abhorrence' stretches to Spains monkey chanting fans? Or those numerous Italian players over the years who have very much endeared themselves to certain Fascist fans groups?

Me too. I am English, but have only a very mild interest in football and then only for important matches like the World Cup or Cup Final. I find this insistence that "the whole country is behind our team" very annoying and the constant dwelling on VERY long ago glories is intensely embarrassing. I will be winding up the saddos in my office by announcing my support for a real underdog, such as Paraguay.
Alison, UK

Smells like a Guardian reader to me. 'Nuff said.:p

[Architect]

The problem is, by so automatically wanting England to do badly, the Scots freely choose and acknowledge a position of natural inferiority

It's amazing how, now that we're responding to decades of jingo-istic ENGERLAND FOREVER wall-to-wall coverage at times like this , we're the poor sports.

I've had the telly on in the background this afternoon and have had the joy of numerous adverts - not just the SUN one - extolling "our" team to do well. I've getting fed up looking at the news either online or on the telly and having to hear about aforementioned team.

About the only moment of light is the Carlsberg team-talk ad, which must surely have been written by someone from another of the home nations....

But, as Alan Hansen said, I hope they win the world cup - I'm fed up having to watch the damn thing in black and white time after time.

[Architect]

What's the word..tip of my tongue...hypocrisy, or hubris...or just both?


Yes, that's right, Andy Cameron's light hearted song is in some way representative of the Scottish people. Let's not mentioned English World Cup songs......

And in said championship we did beat the Netherlands, so gerritupye as Andy would say. Archie Gemmel for First Minister !! :p

[Architect]

Yeah, even better, as the sendings off would have been the result of deliberate injuries to opponents. :D

As a rugby man, I have to ask what's wrong with that......... ;)

[Nogbad]

So the match tonight - loser pays for the gulf clean up?

;)

[Debaser]

But, as Alan Hansen said, I hope they win the world cup - I'm fed up having to watch the damn thing in black and white time after time.

Unfortunately for anyone interested in the competition, THE greatest 'Official Film of the FIFA World Cup' has to be 'Goal...Official Film of the FIFA World Cup 1966'. Brian Glanville's finest piece of football writing '...the Italians arrive......taught......tense'. Genius.

[Ian Osborne]

We're representing Britain,
And we're gaunny do or die,
England cannae dae it,
'Cos they didnae qualify!

Even at their peak, when they qualified for the finals and we didn't, they have to have a pop at the English. Inferiority complex, or what?

[Debaser]

Yes, that's right, Andy Cameron's light hearted song is in some way representative of the Scottish people. Let's not mentioned English World Cup songs......

And in said championship we did beat the Netherlands, so gerritupye as Andy would say. Archie Gemmel for First Minister !! :p

Light hearted...after the fact yes it was. Unfortunately I think there were many who thought Scotland were going to win it. Hey, if England could surely Scotland should as well?

People were forking out their entire life savings to travel to Argentina and support their team. One fan even sold his butcher's shop to raise funds of around £2000 and secure himself a return ticket.

In the 1978 STV documentary The World at their Feet, former Scotland player Bill Shankly attempted to translate the passion many Scottish fans were feeling.

He said: “You would die for them like when Wallace went to Stirling Bridge and fought the English and Bruce went to Bannockburn, that’s how you feel.”

The squad, led by Ally MacLeod and consisting of Kenny Dalglish, Archie Gemmil, to name but a few, were dubbed as the “best team we are ever going to get” as the country crowned 1978 as “our time to win.

http://sport.stv.tv/fifa-world-cup/181057-the-world-cup-victory-that-never-was-scotlands-1978-dream/

So, when fans think 'well the nation next door, with whom we share an island and language, but only one-tenth the population can win...so can we' is just the little guy trying to 'big himself up'. When it's another fan thinking 'well, nations comparable in size, economy and domestic league competitiveness have won multiple times...why shouldn't we' its pseudo-colonialist arrogance?

And if you don't think all those references to Gemmil's goal (singular) aren't overblown...?

[funk de fino]

"We're on the march wi' Ally's Army,
We're going tae the Argentine,
And we'll really shake them up,
When we win the World Cup,
'Cos Scotland is the greatest football team,

We're representing Britain,
And we're gaunny do or die,
England cannae dae it,
'Cos they didnae qualify!

We're on the march wi' Ally's Army,
We're going tae the Argentine,
And we'll really shake them up,
When we win the World Cup,
'Cos Scotland is the greatest football team"

What's the word..tip of my tongue...hypocrisy, or hubris...or just both?

Never arrogance...never, ever accuse a Scot of that, that's the English disease.:rolleyes:

Smells like a Guardian reader to me. 'Nuff said.:p

After 1978, we learned our lesson. 'Nuff said.

[funk de fino]

Even at their peak, when they qualified for the finals and we didn't, they have to have a pop at the English. Inferiority complex, or what?

But you are the reason this continues. SOHF. We just find it too funny to stop.

[Rolfe]

Football bores me senseless. I can't wait for it all to be over. The sooner the better.

Architect, can I copy your avatar?

Last time this was on, I was living in England. The place was decked out in white and red. Can't begrudge them that, they're English after all. I kept my head down. Then England were knocked out, and Andy Murray was doing quite well at Wimbledon, so I found a saltire....

I feel a bit sorry for Andy Murray in all this. This was only a throwaway remark of his, directed at Tim Henman. In context, it was a normal bit of ribbing. But he got all sorts of flak, and ended up pretending that a saltire on his baseball cap wasn't a flag at all, just a sort of white cross pattern on the blue cap....

Rolfe.

[Debaser]

I've got to be honest, the only reason this article got up my nose was this bit;
Fervent England supporter Mark Perryman, author of Ingerland: Travels With A Football Nation and a proponent of a tolerant, progressive English patriotism...

I can't see, for example, Mr. Salmond having to have that description every time he's in the paper.

Bizarre as it may seem to some (strangely, usually my comrades on the English left), England has a greater claim to be a 'Rainbow Nation' than the self-titled hosts. And over these next four weeks of glory, culminating in the usual nervy quarter-/semi-final knockout, look out for those flying the 'crusader' flag, as diverse a cross-section of our nation as you're likely to get.

Come On England!!

[jimbob]

We Aussies are hopelessly conflicted whenever our antipodean cousins, the Kiwis, play England in anything. We usually hope for a nil-all draw with a heap of injuries.

As half-Kiwi, half English I am likewise hopelessly conflicted when the Wallabies play the Springboks.

Or France-Australia (Actually -Go France in that case)

[Architect]

I can't see, for example, Mr. Salmond having to have that description every time he's in the paper.


If you're suggesting that the SNP and wee Eck aren't supportive of inclusive, progressive nationalism then I suggest we take it into a separate thread where Rolfe, myself, and others will be more than happy to show your prejudices for what they are.

[Architect]

Light hearted...after the fact yes it was. Unfortunately I think there were many who thought Scotland were going to win it. Hey, if England could surely Scotland should as well?

(snip)

And if you don't think all those references to Gemmil's goal (singular) aren't overblown...?

If you think Andy Cameron was serious then you clearly never saw his appearance on ToTP singing the song. Stop wasting our time.

And no, Archie's goals - you know, he played for us quite a bit - were often inspired playing. You'll not be familiar with then though, because whilst we have to put up with Engerland on our BBC stations you don't generally get to see Scotland on yours...


Just a moment, you're not Brian Moore are you?

[Debaser]

If you're suggesting that the SNP and wee Eck aren't supportive of inclusive, progressive nationalism then I suggest we take it into a separate thread where Rolfe, myself, and others will be more than happy to show your prejudices for what they are.

Wrong end of the stick old boy.

Scottish Nationalism doesn't need the 'inclusive' bit because everyone takes it as being self evident. English Nationalism however is automatically regarded as jackboot wearing thuggery and apparently requires justification at every turn.

[Debaser]

And no, Archie's goals - you know, he played for us quite a bit - were often inspired playing. You'll not be familiar with then though, because whilst we have to put up with Engerland on our BBC stations you don't generally get to see Scotland on yours...


Yes, but it's THAT goal like it's THAT World Cup. At least the World Cup victory wasn't just one moment in one game.

[Just_Me]

thankfully it has'nt come over here (here being ireland) yet . considering the SOME irish people have a problem with the english whether it is the world cup or not and that ireland missed out on a place due to a goal scored by a blatant hand ball by a french player thierry henry i am very surprised there has'nt , as far as i know , been any anti english feeling . as to the workd cup i don't think people here are that bothered . i will follow england myself as i am the daughter of an english man and also my boyfriend is english .

[Debaser]

i will follow england myself as i am the daughter of an english man and also my boyfriend is english .

Welcome to the beautiful madness then.

[Architect]

Copy away!

[Flashman]

I like to think I can rise above all this jingoistic nonsense. I'm an Englishman through and through and yet I support the Scots in all their many and various sporting endeavours. One has to admit, they toss a mean caber.

[Sledge]

I don't mind the English following their team, it's the "we'll win it this time!" attitude that gets me. Have some realistic ambitions, England. "Maybe the England team won't make a total hash of it before getting knocked out" would be a far more reasonable hope.

I hope the Germans win, preferably after knocking England out in a much earlier match.

[Rolfe]

Copy away!


Thanks, old boy!

I can't help it. The sooner everyone shuts up about this the better, and I can get on with watching Wimbledon. And the worse England do, the faster they'll shut up.

I noticed today that the village newsagent is bedecked with an Argentinian flag. The owner of the business, who is a football nut, is claiming to be a quarter Argentinian. (His ethnic origins are clearly Indian subcontinent, almost certainly Pakistan.) I haven't heard if any of the local English residents are cross about it.

I'm not sure what all this says about racial tensions in Scotland, apart from the fact that it's all a bit complicated.

Rolfe.

[funk de fino]

Yes, but it's THAT goal like it's THAT World Cup. At least the World Cup victory wasn't just one moment in one game.

It was goal of the tournament. Get over it.

Just had a great day watching the game in a bar in Lafayette, Louisiana cheering on the US. England were as pants as I expected them to be and you still have not found a goalie. Pretty ironic when it was always the Scots who got reamed for having crap goalies years ago.

One funny thing was the Yanks around me slagging off Capellos teeth as being typically British and me having to tell them he was actually Italian.

[Ian Osborne]

Just had a great day watching the game in a bar in Lafayette, Louisiana cheering on the US.

If Scotland hadn't crapped out during the qualifiers - as usual - you could've cheered your own team. At least until they went out during the group stages - as usual.

[funk de fino]

If Scotland hadn't crapped out during the qualifiers - as usual - you could've cheered your own team. At least until they went out during the group stages - as usual.

Fell for it again eh? Keep on keeping on...........makes us all the more determined to do it more. Now who is feeling inferior?

USA USA USA

[Ian Osborne]

Fell for it again eh? Keep on keeping on...........makes us all the more determined to do it more. Now who is feeling inferior?

Not us.

USA USA USA

We're in South Africa, we're in South Africa, you're not, you're not.

[Uzzy]

To be fair on the Scots, 12 years without playing in a major football tournament will drive the staunchest supporter into silliness, as we can see here.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I'm cheering for Canada. Go Canada!

[funk de fino]

Not us.

We're in South Africa, we're in South Africa, you're not, you're not.

ABE, ABE, ABE.......The Yanks here are onboard for this too now.

[funk de fino]

To be fair on the Scots, 12 years without playing in a major football tournament will drive the staunchest supporter into silliness, as we can see here.

Not really, we know our limitations. Unlike the guffs, as has been proved again today. They were awful.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

To be fair on the Scots, 12 years without playing in a major football tournament will drive the staunchest supporter into silliness, as we can see here.

Well, you needn't make the effort to be fair to this particular Scot. I've always taken the view that fitba is a weans' gemm — a bit like peever, but without the intellectual challenge or the raw excitement.

[funk de fino]

We did have a Scot in South Africa who played against England for the last few minutes.

Stuart Holden. Born in Aberdeen.

[Architect]

I noticed today that the village newsagent is bedecked with an Argentinian flag. The owner of the business, who is a football nut, is claiming to be a quarter Argentinian. (His ethnic origins are clearly Indian subcontinent, almost certainly Pakistan.) I haven't heard if any of the local English residents are cross about it.


Was it possible he was supporting them in yesterday's rugger match? :D

[Oliver]

BNP leader Nick Griffin claims ABE (Anyone But England) World Cup T-shirts are racist especially when worn by Germans!

*snip* ... "What was meant to be a joke has now lead to a major diplomatic crisis between Germany and England especially because Angie Merkel was seen bar-b-queing a BRATWURST wearing an ABE t-shirt!" :D


http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s6i69581

[Lukraak_Sisser]

See, I cannot support the ABE movement at all.
This would mean that there is a chance the dutch make it to the final and since I'm dutch that means I'd have to put up with all that orange football crap that is everywhere here now.
And for some reason football fans tend to only really wreck things when their team wins. I'd like my city in one piece.
So, by all means let england win :)

[DC]

See, I cannot support the ABE movement at all.
This would mean that there is a chance the dutch make it to the final and since I'm dutch that means I'd have to put up with all that orange football crap that is everywhere here now.
And for some reason football fans tend to only really wreck things when their team wins. I'd like my city in one piece.
So, by all means let england win :)

oh yes i remember the night in Amsterdam when Ajax won the Champions League. :eye-poppi

[foxprorawks]

I'm not a football fan, but I can definitely understand ABE.

In 1998 Scotland opened the World Cup with a game against Brazil - a great game with Scotland scoring but Brazil winning 2-1.

A few days later, we arrive at England's first game. Des Lynam opens the show by saying "The tournament started four days ago, but this is where it really begins."

That's the kind of thing that leads to ABE - it's the constant media attention to England.

Add to that, if a Scottish sportsman or athlete does well, he is British in the media.

If he fails, he's Scottish.

[Tatyana]

I love the World Cup, but I am an immigrant, so I have figured out that England never wins.

I have the lucky dip of Brasil and Switzerland, and I am also cheering for New Zealand.

[DC]

I love the World Cup, but I am an immigrant, so I have figured out that England never wins.

I have the lucky dip of Brasil and Switzerland, and I am also cheering for New Zealand.

:D
Finale Switzerland vs Brazil :D

[Uzzy]

We did have a Scot in South Africa who played against England for the last few minutes.

Stuart Holden. Born in Aberdeen.

And had the common sense to go play for a country that will qualify for the World Cup. Smart lad.

Oh well, when Scotland do anything of worth on the modern international football stage, you can comment on England's campaign in the World Cup and be taken seriously. Till then, you're just a bunch of noisy neighbours.

[Lothian]

When Scots Welsh and Irish support a team playing England. It is not because we automatically support England's opposition. It is because we are British and the British always support the underdog.

When England play, the opposition is always the underdog. We know this because the English fans and newspapers keep telling us how brilliant England are. As Cappello says 'England expects to win.'

Drop the arrogance and you might get some support from the other home nations.

[Ian Osborne]

There's nothing arrogant about playing to win. You should try it some time.

[Matthew Best]

When England play, the opposition is always the underdog.

But funk said he expected England to be pants - on that basis, surely he should have supported them as in his mind they must have been the underdogs. :D

[commandlinegamer]

IIRC, Scotland qualified for four tournaments in a row. We're just having a wee rest is all.

[NoZed Avenger]

Well, US 1 Eng 1.


Just imagine how well we'd do if anyone explained the rules to us.

[Naddig74]

I like to think I can rise above all this jingoistic nonsense. I'm an Englishman through and through and yet I support the Scots in all their many and various sporting endeavours. One has to admit, they toss a mean caber.

With a name like that you should be the most jingoistic of all, you cowardly cad you! :p;)

[Ladewig]

See, I cannot support the ABE movement at all.
This would mean that there is a chance the dutch make it to the final and since I'm dutch that means I'd have to put up with all that orange football crap that is everywhere here now.
And for some reason football fans tend to only really wreck things when their team wins. I'd like my city in one piece.
So, by all means let england win :)

I do like Dutch culture (except for the bike thievery), but I never came close to understanding soccer celebrants saying "That man lives on a barge - let's go stand on it until our weight sends it to the bottom of the canal."

[Ian Osborne]

That's the kind of thing that leads to ABE - it's the constant media attention to England.

That will be the English media, yes? As in, the media in England? If you prefer your media coverage to have a more Scottish slant, you should go live in Scotland.

[Lothian]

That will be the English media, yes? As in, the media in England? If you prefer your media coverage to have a more Scottish slant, you should go live in Scotland.I think Fox was refefring to the BBC. Is that English now?

[Ian Osborne]

I think Fox was refefring to the BBC. Is that English now?

It regionalises.

[Lothian]

It regionalises.Not always and not for the World Cup or Olympics.

[Ian Osborne]

Not always and not for the World Cup or Olympics.

Then it was pretty clumsy of him, then, but what we have in the national media is a London bias, not an English bias. Did you know Birmingham bid for the Olympics long before London's 2012 bid? Neither did most people outside the Midlands.

[Nogbad]

That will be the English media, yes? As in, the media in England? If you prefer your media coverage to have a more Scottish slant, you should go live in Scotland.

The media is a little more diverse these days. Back then Jimmy Hill and Des were thrust upon us whether we would or no and newspapers made little allowance for going north of the border. These days most papers have their Scottish editions so when Max Hastings has a rant about the Scots in the Mail the story is replaced with something else by the time it hits our news stands (The Mail wouldn't want to lose sales on the account of pandering to prejudices)

[Lothian]

Then it was pretty clumsy of him, then, but what we have in the national media is a London bias, not an English bias. Did you know Birmingham bid for the Olympics long before London's 2012 bid? Yes.

[Ian Osborne]

Yes.

I hope you enjoyed your stay in Birmingham then. :)

[learner]

Germany/Australia game about to start. I've come over all confused I want them both to lose. :)

[Lothian]

I hope you enjoyed your stay in Birmingham then. :)Never lived there, just follow sport a bit.

[Information Analyst]

Add to that, if a Scottish sportsman or athlete does well, he is British in the media.

If he fails, he's Scottish.
This seems to be a constant complaint, but is it actually statistically true? I don't follow the vast majority sport, but when it crosses my path it seems that non-English origin is mentioned at various stages without any discernable pattern. I suspect that this is more one of those cases where people hear what they want to hear.

As to the wider issue of the amount of media coverage England gets when it does actually manage to make it to a major tournament, the simple fact is that England contains more than 80% of the population of the UK. Even so, it seems to me that when England isn't in the running, the English generally seem happy enough to transfer their support to other current or past constituent nations of the UK that are. It will probably annoy some people to know that if England, Scotland, Wales or Nortrh Ireland aren't taking part in something, but the Irish Republic is, a fair number of tricolours will appear on English streets.

[foxprorawks]

No, that will be the British media.

And I do live in Scotland.

[mummymonkey]

Well in the event of Scotland not playing in a major tournament (which happens from time to time) I try and follow the teams which contain players from my club team. This time that's Algeria and the USA. Pure coincidence they happen to be in the same group as England.

I propose we scrap the four home teams and replace them with a single UK team. That way we would qualify for all the tourneys, have a decent goalkeeper and stand a realistic chance of winning. The likes of Best and Giggs would also get a chance of playing at the very highest level. Everyone would be happy, wouldn't they?

[Architect]

Well on that basis why don't we just have a pan-European side...it'll be great because we'll get all these ****-hot German players, plus some Spaniards and all that, and have a realistic chance of winning.
Breach of rule 10 removed. Do not partially mask swearing to avoid the autocensor.

[mummymonkey]

Well on that basis why don't we just have a pan-European side...it'll be great because we'll get all these ****-hot German players, plus some Spaniards and all that, and have a realistic chance of winning.
Edited moderated quote.

Oh no. They're foreign.

[Architect]

Of course they are, they're German.

Ah, no, wait, I see what you mean.

[Uzzy]

This seems to be a constant complaint, but is it actually statistically true? I don't follow the vast majority sport, but when it crosses my path it seems that non-English origin is mentioned at various stages without any discernable pattern. I suspect that this is more one of those cases where people hear what they want to hear.

As to the wider issue of the amount of media coverage England gets when it does actually manage to make it to a major tournament, the simple fact is that England contains more than 80% of the population of the UK. Even so, it seems to me that when England isn't in the running, the English generally seem happy enough to transfer their support to other current or past constituent nations of the UK that are. It will probably annoy some people to know that if England, Scotland, Wales or Nortrh Ireland aren't taking part in something, but the Irish Republic is, a fair number of tricolours will appear on English streets.

83.8% infact, compared to Scotland's 8.4%. England has 10 times the population of Scotland, with London's population bigger then Scotland as well. Further, England are actually at the World Cup. So is it really too surprising that the English team gets more coverage in the national press? They could cover the Scottish team, but I think we'd all get tired of Darren Fletcher's beach snaps pretty quickly.

Secondly, Scottish issues always get covered in the national news. Concerning football, I've seen the BBC news discuss the SPL every weekend. Not to the same extent as the EPL, but it's still discussed. Same with internationals. Heck, the BBC had major coverage of the ROI's match against France, and the ROI isn't even part of the UK!

Thirdly, it may have been true in the past that Scottish issues got less coverage, which is why most media is regionalised these days in order to fix that.

[shandyjan]

Seeing as we arnt a football forum, isnt the avatar a bit rascist...or am I being petty?

[Rolfe]

Oh, take a joke, why can't you?

Rolfe.

[JFM]

I remember a few years ago, being in Spain during the Euro' qualifiers. Being out all that day (Saturday) and this being before there was a WiFi spot every other street corner, I missed the results.

The next day, when I went for a lunchtime pint, I bought an English language paper that I could browse easily while having a couple of beers (my Spanish is remedial). The only paper left that I could see was the Daily Record. The centre pages had full page articles about the NI game, the Scottish game, the Wales game even the Republic game, nothing at all about England.

"Fair enough", I thought, "It'll certaily be in the sports section" - Wrong. Not even the tiniest mention, nothing, not even a simple 'England 0 - Whoever 12'.

Laughably childish I thought.

It isn't just a bit of fun, it is deeply ingrained.

[Damien Evans]

The ABE movement; innocent(ish) rivalry, understandable ire on the part of the celtic home nations at the pervasive jingo-ism flooding the media, or grossly unacceptable racism/sour grapes from those who didn't make the cup?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8733373.stm

Personal view? Fed up of this kind of crap:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3007569/Fly-the-flag-for-England-with-The-Sun.html

They've got adverts all over the place, not least Virgin 1. And they're not the only ones.

They left out the colonies! You can bet that a fair percentage of Aussies and Kiwis are ABE's as well. Especially given it looks like we're both not going to get out of our group.

[Soapy Sam]

Then it was pretty clumsy of him, then, but what we have in the national media is a London bias, not an English bias. Did you know Birmingham bid for the Olympics long before London's 2012 bid? Neither did most people outside the Midlands.

This is true. And I think most folk in the UK realise it- except possibly those in the south east, who (I suppose understandably) take it as the norm.

What emerges from this thread for me is that the whole ABE thing is about perception- as influenced by journalism, particularly television reporting of sport, with the BBC being the most guilty single party.

Personally, if all professional sport simply stopped tomorrow, it might be months before I noticed. I couldn't care less who wins the World Cup, or any football match. I chuckled on hearing the USA held England to a draw- but this isn't petty spite against the England team, not one member of which I could even name. (I'd do no better with Scotland). It's because I find sport entertaining and the reporting of it entertaining. I rather thought that's what sport was supposed to be- entertainment.

[Lothian]

I remember a few years ago, being in Spain during the Euro' qualifiers. Being out all that day (Saturday) and this being before there was a WiFi spot every other street corner, I missed the results.

The next day, when I went for a lunchtime pint, I bought an English language paper that I could browse easily while having a couple of beers (my Spanish is remedial). The only paper left that I could see was the Daily Record. The centre pages had full page articles about the NI game, the Scottish game, the Wales game even the Republic game, nothing at all about England.

"Fair enough", I thought, "It'll certaily be in the sports section" - Wrong. Not even the tiniest mention, nothing, not even a simple 'England 0 - Whoever 12'.

Laughably childish I thought.

It isn't just a bit of fun, it is deeply ingrained.Often the versions of papers that get sent abroad are the first printings.
Euro games are not all played at the same time. Sky liked England games on Saturday night whereas the other home nations tended to play earlier. Perhaps it was simply that at the time of printing the England match had not been played. I recall wasting £1+ on an English paper (cover price 20-30p) and not getting the football results which were my main reason for buying it.

[Rolfe]

Often the versions of papers that get sent abroad are the first printings.
Euro games are not all played at the same time. Sky liked England games on Saturday night whereas the other home nations tended to play earlier. Perhaps it was simply that at the time of printing the England match had not been played. I recall wasting £1+ on an English paper (cover price 20-30p) and not getting the football results which were my main reason for buying it.


That sounds likely. The Daily Record may be a comic, but it's a comic with football-supporting readers. I find it inconceivable that they wouldn't have had something on a match like that if it had been played at the time of printing.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Personally, if all professional sport simply stopped tomorrow, it might be months before I noticed.


Depends on the date of "tomorrow". Now, yes I'd notice. I enjoy Wimbledon. After that - no I probably wouldn't notice except we might get some actual news on Reporting Scotland for a change.

"Anyone but England" means they get knocked out ASAP, which means that all this tedious hype stops ASAP. Go for it.

Rolfe.

[foxprorawks]

If all sports reportage stopped, I wouldn't really notice either.

The one sport I'm interested in (basketball) is rarely reported on in the UK.

[Rolfe]

S'funny how the games most popular in the USA are the ones played by kiddies round here. Rounders and netball....:duck:

Rolfe.

[Last of the Fraggles]

That will be the English media, yes? As in, the media in England? If you prefer your media coverage to have a more Scottish slant, you should go live in Scotland.

Unfortunately, in Scotland you get the SAME English coverage by the same English media!!! Is there any other country in the World having to put up with watching coverage provided by their biggest rivals?

I'm proudly ABE and there are so many reasons - funny how its petty small-mindedness when Scotland do it but when England witter on about Argentina and Germany it's fair game.

Why would any neutral want to support England anyway? They aren't great to watch, are hardly plucky underdogs, and don't (in my opinion) add much to the tournament in terms of colour or entertainment. They have a couple of good players, but so do many teams. I'd put them in with France and Italy - two other teams who are not that great to watch.

Are we supposed to support them because they are British? Well firstly, I don't self-identify as British so why should I care? Secondly, if we are supposed to support our neighbours then someone better let the French, Germans, Dutch, Spanish etc know.

Personally I love to see England lose - it's that mix of pre-match arrogance, jingoism and superiority followed by the post-match anger and recriminations that does it for me.

If I need more reasons then I just think about the dismissal of Scottish football as a joke, the fact they use the 'British' national anthem and flag when they are representing England, Clive Tyldsley's ignorant and xenophobic ramblings in the build up to the match, James Corden (just in general), Three Lions, Ian Wright, Alan Shearer and the rest of the media, not to mention the turncoat ****s like Hansen, Gray and Brazil.

I have lived in England before and I don't dislike England or the English people in generally. I do dislike your football team and the loathsome circus that surrounds it. And...you're just not all that good I'm afraid.

[Last of the Fraggles]

83.8% infact, compared to Scotland's 8.4%. England has 10 times the population of Scotland, with London's population bigger then Scotland as well. Further, England are actually at the World Cup. So is it really too surprising that the English team gets more coverage in the national press? They could cover the Scottish team, but I think we'd all get tired of Darren Fletcher's beach snaps pretty quickly.

Secondly, Scottish issues always get covered in the national news. Concerning football, I've seen the BBC news discuss the SPL every weekend. Not to the same extent as the EPL, but it's still discussed. Same with internationals. Heck, the BBC had major coverage of the ROI's match against France, and the ROI isn't even part of the UK!

Thirdly, it may have been true in the past that Scottish issues got less coverage, which is why most media is regionalised these days in order to fix that.

I appreciate that England makes up the biggest part of the UK, and needs to provide coverage of the England team. That's fine, however the nature of the coverage should be respectful to the other 20% who may not be supporting England and to the other nations in the World Cup.

I don't think its respectful when they provide 60-seconds of analysis on a game like Algeria v Slovenia (who were even in England's group FFS!) and then say 'well lads, lets move on to the real stuff and talk about England again. How about John Terry's new haircut?' That dismissive superiority is something that turns me off - I'd be far happier if we could get a Scottish show that gave proper respect to all the participants but it seems they don't have the money for that in their budget.

Personally, I am not a jingoistic xenophobic idiot so when Tyldsley comes out with things like 'Now let's hear THE national anthem' (dismissing and disrespecting not only the USA but every other country in the world) it bothers me. When other commentators feel the need to mention England and 1966 in every game regardless of who is playing it grates.

You have seen the news cover the SPL? Fantastic. Usually they just flag up the scores - if you are lucky you might get all 6 games, sometimes just the Rangers and Celtic results - very rarely is there any video from the games.

Media may well be 'regionalised' but the 'regions' are controlled by the central offices in England and the budgets available for regional issues are laughable. Compare the amount of cash for example the BBC spends to get highlights of the EPL vs the amount spent covering the SPL as an example. A few token inclusions of regional content is hardly enough. When was the last time a Scotland match was shown on UK-wide terrestrial TV? Ditto for a Scottish domestic league fixture or Cup Final?

I understand that TV has to cater to the majority but if you do so in a way that excludes the minority you can hardly complain when the minority don't buy into what you are selling. Generally they are pretty good, but football seems to be a bit of a blind spot for the media. I can't imagine them ever covering a story about Diwali (for example) then handing over to someone saying 'Well so much for that. Now for some real religion..Christmas is coming soon'

[Rolfe]

As I said, I'm not a football fan at all. But Last of the Fraggles is articulating my gut feelings on the subject.

Rolfe.

[Lothian]

I agree with Last of the Fraggles but it is not just football where TV doesn't cater for us Scots. When was the last time you saw a cookery program where they took the food, dipped it in batter and deep fried it?

[Rolfe]

For God's sake, don't give them ideas!

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

A lot of this is really a subset of dissatisfaction about the centralised nature of broadcasting, and the miserly resources and coverage given to anything outside the south of England. The campaign for a "Scottish Six" has been repeatedly rejected for the explicit reason that it might give the SNP and Scottish issues and politics more equal coverage and we can't have that.

So it is political in a way. It's just that the football fans don't really notice it until football is the subject, bcause normally they get to take over Reporting Scotland where the rest of us would quite like to see the sort of content a "Scottish Six" would provide.

Rolfe.

[dafydd]

When I was 7 I greatly enjoyed supporting Scotland in the 1978 World Cup (England didn't qualify).
It took me a few more years to learn of the true nature and extent of Scottish petty-mindedness.

Well the English are past masters at petty-mindnedness.

[Last of the Fraggles]

A lot of this is really a subset of dissatisfaction about the centralised nature of broadcasting, and the miserly resources and coverage given to anything outside the south of England. The campaign for a "Scottish Six" has been repeatedly rejected for the explicit reason that it might give the SNP and Scottish issues and politics more equal coverage and we can't have that.

So it is political in a way. It's just that the football fans don't really notice it until football is the subject, bcause normally they get to take over Reporting Scotland where the rest of us would quite like to see the sort of content a "Scottish Six" would provide.

Rolfe.

I'm a bit torn on this topic because, while I would like Scotland to have separate coverage of things like this I am very aware whenever I turn on STV that the likely output of a separate Scottish media would be a lot of crap.

[Rolfe]

There's a cure for that, don't watch STV. That's like judging the quality of journalism in Scotland by looking at the Daily Record.

Look, when anyone who wants to get ahead in broadcasting in Scotland more or less has to move to London, what do you expect? Then you get the syndrome of the commissioning directors looking at Scoland and saying, you don't have the talent, you're not getting the work.

On a parallel note, remember Kenneth McKellar? One of the finest lyric tenors of his generation. But he didn't want to move out of Scotland, so he ended up in a kilt singing Burns songs at the White Heather Club. He could have been an international opera star, but didn't want to pay that price.

Now, of course, he could have had it both ways, as there is an opera company in Scotland. If you don't have the resources in the country, what you're left with is the second-rate. Then you look at the second-rate, and say, you don't deserve the resources....

Radio Scotland used to be a helluva lot better than it is now, and I used to listen to it online when I lived in England, for the international news. It can be done, if we can retain our own talent, and give them the opportunity to develop their careers without having to emigrate.

Rolfe.

[plumjam]

...I recall wasting £1+ on an English paper (cover price 20-30p)...

A Scot at the top of his game.

[Last of the Fraggles]

There's a cure for that, don't watch STV. That's like judging the quality of journalism in Scotland by looking at the Daily Record.

Look, when anyone who wants to get ahead in broadcasting in Scotland more or less has to move to London, what do you expect? Then you get the syndrome of the commissioning directors looking at Scoland and saying, you don't have the talent, you're not getting the work.

On a parallel note, remember Kenneth McKellar? One of the finest lyric tenors of his generation. But he didn't want to move out of Scotland, so he ended up in a kilt singing Burns songs at the White Heather Club. He could have been an international opera star, but didn't want to pay that price.

Now, of course, he could have had it both ways, as there is an opera company in Scotland. If you don't have the resources in the country, what you're left with is the second-rate. Then you look at the second-rate, and say, you don't deserve the resources....

Radio Scotland used to be a helluva lot better than it is now, and I used to listen to it online when I lived in England, for the international news. It can be done, if we can retain our own talent, and give them the opportunity to develop their careers without having to emigrate.

Rolfe.

Unfortunately, unless the Scottish media is funded to the same level as the English (which they won't be just on population alone) then the best of Scotland are always going to head to London.

Its the same in most walks of life. using the football example there is a thriving domestic league but all the best players want to play down South where they can make 5* or more the wages for the same thing.

[Rolfe]

There are plenty countries not much bigger than Scotland doing just fine though. There's one big difference of course, but then this thread got moved out of the politics forum....

Rolfe.

[commandlinegamer]

I propose we scrap the four home teams and replace them with a single UK team. That way we would qualify for all the tourneys, have a decent goalkeeper and stand a realistic chance of winning. The likes of Best and Giggs would also get a chance of playing at the very highest level. Everyone would be happy, wouldn't they?

If you had a representative UK team it would be 10 English players and one squished together from the other three countries. Regardless of talent I can't see that pleasing a lot of people.

[Last of the Fraggles]

There are plenty countries not much bigger than Scotland doing just fine though. There's one big difference of course, but then this thread got moved out of the politics forum....

Rolfe.

Yeah, let's get back to the important stuff. Come on Algeria!!

Just need them to do enough to have England 2nd in the group, and then the inevitable penalty loss to the Germans will take care of itself.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Put me down as a "Grow up - it's only a game of football" supporter.

Perhaps removing professional sport from TV would encourage more people to go out and actually take some exercise as well as curtail the ridiculous amounts of money sportsmen and women make from tournaments and endorsements?

[Lothian]

A Scot at the top of his game.Overpaying was doubly painful. I was brought up in Yorkshire.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I'm just disappointed it's starting to catch on in America. I always thought the Yanks had the right attitude to soccer, treating it as a girl's game.

I guess if they now consider soccer to be a man's game, then there's even less chance of them dropping the crash helmets and pads from their 'football' and playing a proper game of rugby.:p

[Rolfe]

If rounders and netball aren't girls' games, I don't know what they are....

Rolfe.

[Naddig74]

Did anybody see Ian Wright's petulant, childish display at the last world cup?

Leaping up and down like an idiot when England are ahead. Pouting and sulking like a little girl when they are behind. When asked for his opinion on the final England/Portugal match (which he is actually being paid quite a lot of money to give) he said 'I don't want to talk about it,' with a face like a smacked arse. Sports reporters are supposed to remain impartial enough to do their jobs at least.

All this talk about the SPL reminds about the joke about Partick Thistle...most englishmen think the teams full name is Partick Thistle Nil.

[dafydd]

If rounders and netball aren't girls' games, I don't know what they are....

Rolfe.

Baseball and basketball.

[Ian Osborne]

Just to prove it's not just the English that take hubris a little too far...

http://i.imgur.com/YDjND.jpg

[commandlinegamer]

If rounders and netball aren't girls' games, I don't know what they are....

Rolfe.

I'd like to mention Jack Maclean, writer for the Glasgow Herald who, whilst not being a traditional sports journalist, wrote a weekly column on such in the late 80s/early 90s, which was collated in the book The Sporting Urban Voltaire.

He covered pretty much everything under the sun from football to flounder-tramping, and while he may come across as a bit sexist, made the point that those games which are mainly played by girls (netball being the typical example), were every bit as skillful and technically challenging as others, with perhaps though a wee bit less violence. :-)

[Matthew Best]

Interesting.... but what's "Bunker Hill"?

[Ian Osborne]

Interesting.... but what's "Bunker Hill"?

A battle during the American revolutionary war. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill) Does this mean we don't need to feel guilty about singing 'Ten German Bombers' when we play Germany? :D

[Rolfe]

I always enjoyed Jack McLean's columns. Has he retired, or what?

Rolfe.

[commandlinegamer]

I always enjoyed Jack McLean's columns. Has he retired, or what?

Rolfe.

I haven't read the paper edition for some time so I'm not sure when or why he stopped; after fruitless searching on Google it doesn't seem he's become a freelance blogger. At least Tom Shields has a column again though.

[Architect]

I assume he's still propping up the bar of the "wee club" he frequented in sunny Shawlands.

In the Freshers debate at Strathclyde he once proposed the motion that prohibition should be declared in Scotland. He did this on the basis that lots of illicit drinking dens would open, which would be magic....

[Cuddles]

Which contrasts sharply with the attitude we can expect from Scotland or Wales when they win the World Cup

You appear confused. Wales will never have an attitude when they win the football world cup because they don't actually have a football team in the first place. Oh sure, they have a few guys that turn up to games every now and then. That's actually the rugby team in disguise*. Man, I bet you're one of those people who believe Welsh is a real language.


*Incidentally, the reason Wales don't win the rugby world cup is because their team spends half its time sneaking into football games.

[Matthew Best]

A battle during the American revolutionary war. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill) Does this mean we don't need to feel guilty about singing 'Ten German Bombers' when we play Germany? :D

Thanks for that - I just assumed it was another previous sporting engagement that we'd forgotten about. After all, as Martin Longden of the British Embassy pointed out (http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0610/USUK_special_relationship_to_face_test_cables_reve al_.html#comments) "the history of English football is long and extensive, in contradistinction to US soccer", so we can't be expected to remember every time we failed to comprehensively despatch some minnow-like opposition.

[Information Analyst]

Just to prove it's not just the English that take hubris a little too far...
http://i.imgur.com/YDjND.jpg
I'm assuming that's a spoof, but someone still needs to work on the difference between "England" and "Britain."

ETA: After further investigation, I'm amazed to see it's genuine. I know bugger all about the rules of football, but clearly someone needs to work on what constitutes a "win" in the game!

[Rolfe]

I'm assuming that's a spoof, but someone still needs to work on the difference between "England" and "Britain."

ETA: After further investigation, I'm amazed to see it's genuine. I know bugger all about the rules of football, but clearly someone needs to work on what constitutes a "win" in the game!


Well, England is part of Britain. And the rest of us can feel smug about the Yanks having a go at a part that isn't us....

Rolfe.

[NoZed Avenger]

. . .we can't be expected to remember every time we failed to comprehensively despatch some minnow-like opposition.

It's happened *that* many times, eh?

[Damien Evans]

Just to prove it's not just the English that take hubris a little too far...

http://i.imgur.com/YDjND.jpg

Is that for real?

[Damien Evans]

I'd like to mention Jack Maclean, writer for the Glasgow Herald who, whilst not being a traditional sports journalist, wrote a weekly column on such in the late 80s/early 90s, which was collated in the book The Sporting Urban Voltaire.

He covered pretty much everything under the sun from football to flounder-tramping, and while he may come across as a bit sexist, made the point that those games which are mainly played by girls (netball being the typical example), were every bit as skillful and technically challenging as others, with perhaps though a wee bit less violence. :-)

Netball is awesome. I love the new Trans-Tasman League. Plus they actually get payed a half reasonable rate now.

http://www.anz-championship.com/?viewteam=0&teamnews=1

[Ashles]

Nice to see the somehow acceptable Scottish racism rearing its ugly head again. :rolleyes:

And it's not the same as the English attitude towards the German and Argentinian teams as those rivalries (childish as they sometimes become) are actually based around previous football tournaments.

As opposed to the Scottish attitude which is very much not.

It just comes across as childish at best and racist at worst. Seriously why can some Scottish people simply not get over this?

Don't like the TV coverage of watching a country play who you don't like? Here's a thought... don't watch it then. Drastic solution I know.

[Architect]

I see........It's okay for England to have the same attitude because that's friendly rivalry but when the Celtic nations do it then it's racism. Hmmmmmm.

[Lothian]

And it's not the same as the English attitude towards the German and Argentinian teams as those rivalries (childish as they sometimes become) are actually based around previous football tournaments.Don't mention the war.

[Ashles]

I see........It's okay for England to have the same attitude because that's friendly rivalry but when the Celtic nations do it then it's racism. Hmmmmmm.

I see you managed to not read the actual words of my post.

If it is football related it is friendly rivalry - when it isn't then it at least borders on racism.
Argentinians and Germans are in everyday life perfectly safe and welcome in England. Scottish posters themselves have described how English people are not similarly welcomed in parts of Scotland. That is actually racism.

And I am not particularly defending the 'friendly rivalry' either when it gets unpleasant.

It just saddens me to see posters like Rolfe who I respect sporting an avatar which I actually find a little unpleasant and at least a touch racist.

English people have no issue with Scottish people or, as far as I am aware from anyone I have spoken to about it, with Scottish independence. It upsets people like me who feel this way yet feel this constant low level hatred coming the other way.

And when a campaign like this is kept up it can be massively counterproductive.

[Ashles]

Don't mention the war.

Yeah, nobody does these days, believe it or not we've actually moved on. (Except for a few idiots who, guess what, everyone thinks are idiots.)

[Lothian]

Yeah, nobody does these days, believe it or not we've actually moved on. (Except for a few idiots who, guess what, everyone thinks are idiots.)Are you saying that I will not hear the "Two world wars and one world cup" witty refrain again?

[Agatha]

Ashles is Speaking mY Branes on this issue. I was cheering for Scotland in the rugby game against Argentina, as I would do for any 'home nation' team. If Scotland had qualified for the World Cup and England hadn't, I'd be supporting them. I certainly wouldn't be sporting an "anyone but Scotland" avatar.

ETA (because that sounded quite confrontational), I find the ABE avatars a bit upsetting and offensive; just as I would if it was Anyone But Germany or Argentina or any other nation. But I do understand where the Scottish posters are coming from, I think their ire should be directed at the media or the politicians rather than appearing to be directed at the supporters.

[Rolfe]

Wow, we do have some thin skins around here. I nicked Architect's avatar because I thought it was amusing. I'm a tennis fan. It's based on a throwaway line of Andy Murray's when he was winding up Tim Henman, which got a massive over-reaction.

I want the football hype over as quickly as possible so I can watch Wimbledon in peace. Best way I can see of achieving that is an early exit for England. :D

So it's OK for English posters to make every crack in the book from "porridge-wogs" up, and we need to take it in a friendly spirit, but a little bit of the same going back, and it's "racist"? Oh dear.

Rolfe.

[Lothian]

But I do understand where the Scottish posters are coming from, I think their ire ....If you think that there is ire then you don't understand where the vast majority of ABE supporters are coming from.

[Worm]

As an Englishman living in Scotland, I can fully understand why the non-English nations get a bit sick of all the pro-England hype when it comes to the World Cup. Even I find it over the top, and frankly, we don't need 2 hours of build-up to a 90 minute match, just get on with it!

In broader terms, without wanting to wander off-topic, there is a certain amount of anti-English ribaldry that goes about, as ABE shows, but I don't find it offensive, just a bit sad when it goes too far.

[Rolfe]

I was screaming "come on Tim!" in the 1990s just as loudly as I'm now screaming "come on Andy!" And getting just as uptight when the serve goes off.

But football bores me senseless, and having to keep channel-hopping to avoid interminable dissection of somebody else's football team is just too much.

Rolfe.

[Matthew Best]

So it's OK for English posters to make every crack in the book from "porridge-wogs" up,

Did someone say it was OK? I must have missed it.

[Rolfe]

Well, lots of people seem to think it's just peachy, actually.

I don't mind, if there's no malice in it. The trouble is, some of the "whinging Scots" stuff does come over quite malicious.

There's no malice, or ire, or anything else, in the ABE stuff. Get over it.

I want a t-shirt by the way, can you buy them online?

ETA: http://www.sumosamtshirts.co.uk/anyone-but-england-t-shirts-49-c.asp

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Are you saying that I will not hear the "Two world wars and one world cup" witty refrain again?

Try rereading my post. I specifically said anyone doing this was an idiot. I don't like racism, even the "friendly sort".

The only sporting rivalry that I think is fun and healthy is based on the actual sporting event itself - I think we have good reason to have specific rivalry with Argentina after "The Hand of God". But that wouldn't make it okay to start shouting abuse about, for example, the Falklands.

[Ashles]

Well, lots of people seem to think it's just peachy, actually.

What people here? Where?
It's obviously unacceptable.

And I'm afraid you can't have it both ways - complaining about the insults you get from other people and then somehow thinking it's okay to do it yourself.
It's either okay both ways or not okay either way.

I don't mind, if there's no malice in it. The trouble is, some of the "whinging Scots" stuff does come over quite malicious.

What like the "Wow, we do have some thin skins around here" comment you made one post previously?

Again it's either okay both directions or neither.

There's no malice, or ire, or anything else, in the ABE stuff. Get over it.

Well why don't you "Get over" there being football matches for teams you don't support on TV?
Telling someone to "Get over" something they find offensive is really unhelpful and a comment designed pretty much to exacerbate any issue.

You are being quite dreadfully hypocritical now.

ETA And I don't understand why people have so much difficulty with their television and not watching things they don't want to watch. If I wanted to completely avoid the World Cup, other than segments on the news (which is always frankly filled with sport I don't want to watch) I would have little to no problem rescheduling my watching to completely avoid it.

I want a t-shirt by the way, can you buy them online?

ETA: http://www.sumosamtshirts.co.uk/anyone-but-england-t-shirts-49-c.asp


For something that's just "friendly spirit" and has no "malice or ire" in it, you seem awfully hell bent on carrying it on.
Maybe not so "friendly spirit" after all?

How would you feel if anyone was describing you as "Porridge-wogs" on this thread? And after it had been expressed that you found it offensive they then carried on regardless, and actively looking for T-Shirts with the slogan on?

[Lothian]

How would you feel after it had been expressed that you found it offensive they then carried on regardless?If I found it offensive and they carried on I would feel miffed. But just beacuse they are my feelings does not mean I am right.

In this case you are miffed that people who are not English don’t want England to win and are expressing their support for the oppposition.

You can wish that people paid no attention to any event that their team does not play in but the fact is millions of people around the world will watch international sporting events in which their teams are not competing. Many of those watching will want a particular team to win or lose.

This is not unusual, Take the T20 cricket world cup over here prior to the last Ashes tour where thousands of English cheered on Sri Lanka and West Indies against the Australians, then celebrated their group exit. You will be hard pressed to find an English cricket fan that does not always support teams against Australia.

You are free to feel offended that foreigners do not automatically support England. I suggest however that one of the reasons foreigners (and some English) may choose to support a team playing England is that, like you, many English have an expectation that neutrals will support England and get offended when they find that is not the case.

Keep up the good work.

[Agatha]

So it's OK for English posters to make every crack in the book from "porridge-wogs" up, and we need to take it in a friendly spirit, but a little bit of the same going back, and it's "racist"? Oh dear.

Rolfe. If that happened, no it wouldn't be OK and I'd be reporting it.

[Ashles]

If I found it offensive and they carried on I would feel miffed. But just beacuse they are my feelings does not mean I am right.

In this case you are miffed that people who are not English don’t want England to win and are expressing their support for the oppposition.

No, that isn't the case as should be quite clear by now.
It is the apparent sentiment of some Scottish people to use this event as an excuse to express non-football related anti-English sentiment.
I don't think this is any more pleasant or acceptable than idiots chanting "Two world wars and one world cup". Or searching for T-Shirts saying "Belgrano and Penalties" or something like that.

Rolfe, for example, is not interested in football - yet is supporting Anyone But England. This appears to be an anti-English sentiment not really related to the actual competition - as such it leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

You can wish that people paid no attention to any event that their team does not play in but the fact is millions of people around the world will watch international sporting events in which their teams are not competing. Many of those watching will want a particular team to win or lose.

Of course. But a semi-organised campaign against another country based not on the actual sporting event itself doesn't seem to me to be entirely okay.

I don't see anyone changing their avatars to "Two world wars one world cup".

And if they did I don't think the German posters would be particularly impressed, no matter how much it was claimed it was "friendly rivalry".

This is not unusual, Take the T20 cricket world cup over here prior to the last Ashes tour where thousands of English cheered on Sri Lanka and West Indies against the Australians, then celebrated their group exit. You will be hard pressed to find an English cricket fan that does not always support teams against Australia.

I don't think it is worth repeating again my stance that rivalry based on the sporting competition history itself seems fair enough, as you will ignore it yet again.

You are free to feel offended that foreigners do not automatically support England. I suggest however that one of the reasons foreigners (and some English) may choose to support a team playing England is that, like you, many English have an expectation that neutrals will support England and get offended when they find that is not the case.

You can suggest this all you want. It is quite wrong, but I doubt that will make any difference to you.

Keep up the good work.

You too. That strawman must be in tatters now.

[Agatha]

I'm not offended that foreigners [Scottish, Welsh and N.Irish] don't support England. I am offended that some are translating this into an automatic support of everyone else. I don't pick one country in the world and say "whoever is playing against them, I want that opposing country to win", not even countries with whom we've been to war. I don't understand that kind of negative nationalism.

[Rolfe]

If that happened, no it wouldn't be OK and I'd be reporting it.


It was some time ago - not this thread, obviously. I did report it, because it seemed to be going beyond banter, but if memory serves me correctly, no action was taken.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Rolfe, for example, is not interested in football - yet is supporting Anyone But England. This appears to be an anti-English sentiment not really related to the actual competition - as such it leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.


Sweetheart, many of my best friends are English - hardly surprising as I lived in England for 25 years.

The sentiment is related to wanting the World Cup hype to be as subdued as possible and to be over as quickly as possible, and it seems to me that England not doing so good will facilitate that.

And besides, it's winding y'all up.

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Sweetheart, many of my best friends are English - hardly surprising as I lived in England for 25 years.

The sentiment is related to wanting the World Cup hype to be as subdued as possible and to be over as quickly as possible, and it seems to me that England not doing so good will facilitate that.

Apparently televisions now come with a "change channel" switch.

And besides, it's winding y'all up.

Oh so it's not just "friendly banter" - you actually do want it to be offensive. Glad you finally came clean.

Next time something anti-Scottish winds you up... just have a little think back to this post. Hopefully you'll still be as proud of it.
I expected more from you to be honest.

[Agatha]

That was a shame. But you appear to be holding all England football supporters, and indeed the football team itself to account for that and using it as justification for anti-English sentiment, which seems to me to be a tu quoque response.

If I changed my avatar to "Two world wars and one world cup" or "Gotcha" over a picture of The Belgrano, I'd expect Germans/Argentinians to be offended.

[Architect]

If that happened, no it wouldn't be OK and I'd be reporting it.

Really? Because it happened on this forum and I enjoyed scant support from the non-Scots when I objected to it. The poster claimed that he didn't realise it was offensive, btw.

[Architect]

Apparently televisions now come with a "change channel" switch.

This morning -BBC breakfast show: England in the World Cup. Radio 1 - Chris Moyles talking about England in the World Cup. Radio 2 - Chris Evans talking about England in the World Cup. Watching digital on the tv last night - Sun adverts supporting England (get your free flag!). Watch a World Cup match and listen to analysis that constantly goes back to how each game will affect England's chances>

It's pervasive. Its jingo-istic. There's no realisation that, in actual fact, some of us might not give a monkey's about England in the World Cup. We can't change the channel because, generally speaking, the media is English dominated and we're stuck with it. It's like having Brian ruddy Moore or Will blinking Carlin living next door, and there's no escape.

So please, stop with the patronising claim that we can turn over. You wonder why the Celtic nations get upset? You can't see how this kind of blatant wall-to-wall pro-England coverage is a large part of the underlying problem - not some attempt to dress it up as "racism".

And just to drive the point home, you try watching the "national" news at 6pm each night to find it dominated by stories which are, in fact, about English issues whilst anything even remotely connected to your own home nation is relegated to "the news where you are". All symptoms of the same underlying problem.

Next time something anti-Scottish winds you up... just have a little think back to this post. Hopefully you'll still be as proud of it.
I expected more from you to be honest.

Like the English are when they needle the Germans and complain about them? Jokes about German humour, towels on sun longers, don't mention the War. And what about the English and their rivalry with the French, a rivalry scarecely shared with the Celtic nations? Will you be proud of your countrymen then? Or is, let me guess, this all "different".

Really, people with your kind of views are amongst the SNP's most powerful marketing tools.

[Ashles]

Really? Because it happened on this forum and I enjoyed scant support from the non-Scots when I objected to it. The poster claimed that he didn't realise it was offensive, btw.

Well personally I agree with Agatha - I find the term offensive as well and would have supported you and Rolfe 100% in reporting it.

[Lothian]

Oh so it's not just "friendly banter" - you actually do want it to be offensive. No the intention is friendly banter; that you get offended turns it into entertainment.

I find the arrogance of some English supporters makes me wantEngland to lose so that they get their comeuppance. I am sure that other teams have arrogant supporters but I have far less interaction with them so I am not affected by it.
I have good friends who are English and I want England to do well so they are happy.
I also have good friends who are arrogant when it comes to England.

When England lose a part of me is happy and a part sad, Same if they win.

I am however always happy to take what enjoyment I can out any situation.

[Architect]

Well personally I agree with Agatha - I find the term offensive as well and would have supported you and Rolfe 100% in reporting it.

Well actions speak louder than words, and we enjoyed zero-zilch support at the time. In all fairness I believe Darat had tried to raise the issue of offensive UK phrases before with the US JREF team to no avail, but the complete absence of any other voices didn't help. Funny that, eh?

[Lothian]

Well personally I agree with Agatha - I find the term offensive as well and would have supported you and Rolfe 100% in reporting it.I disagree. I recall having this converstaion with a number of Scots shortly after the incident and the concensus was that the humour trumped the offense.

[Ashles]

This morning -BBC breakfast show: England in the World Cup. Radio 1 - Chris Moyles talking about England in the World Cup. Radio 2 - Chris Evans talking about England in the World Cup. Watching digital on the tv last night - Sun adverts supporting England (get your free flag!). Watch a World Cup match and listen to analysis that constantly goes back to how each game will affect England's chances>

It's pervasive. Its jingo-istic. There's no realisation that, in actual fact, some of us might not give a monkey's about England in the World Cup. We can't change the channel because, generally speaking, the media is English dominated and we're stuck with it. It's like having Brian ruddy Moore or Will blinking Carlin living next door, and there's no escape.

But I feel exactly the same about practically all sport coverage - I don't want to watch a news channel to hear about football or horse racing, but that's what happens - I cannot understand why they dedicate so much time to it. But I manage to cope somehow.
And I experience that every single day.
You only have to put up with one month of sport coverage you personally don't find enjoyable every four years.
And it's not even a whole month as England usually depart before the end anyway.

It really shouldn't warrant the level of fury it seems to in you.

So please, stop with the patronising claim that we can turn over.

Although obviously you can.

You wonder why the Celtic nations get upset? You can't see how this kind of blatant wall-to-wall pro-England coverage is a large part of the underlying problem

What that broadcasters cover the national team that the vast majority of watchers support?
Be real - obviously England are going to get huge coverage, and they won't exactly film an entirely different commentary of the England match for Scottish people.

- not some attempt to dress it up as "racism".

That's how it comes across.

Like the English are when they needle the Germans and complain about them? Jokes about German humour, towels on sun longers, don't mention the War. And what about the English and their rivalry with the French, a rivalry scarecely shared with the Celitc nations?

To be honest these examples you mention are much much rarer these days which is an entirely good thing.
The intention really should be to eradicate this kind of casual racism, not to think "Look they used to do it, so let's do it too!"

Really, people with your kind of views are amongst the SNP's most powerful marketing tools.

What, that I think casual and thoughtless racism (even if only intended as a bit of fun) should be wiped out? Why, is the SNP opposed to that view?

[richardm]

Well actions speak louder than words, and we enjoyed zero-zilch support at the time.

In actual fact there were a number of posters who objected to the expression (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2608057) at the time, assuming this is the same incident. I mean the collective outrage didn't make the ceiling fall in, or anything, but to say that there was zero support doesn't seem to be quite correct.

[Matthew Best]

So it's OK for English posters to make every crack in the book from "porridge-wogs" up, and we need to take it in a friendly spirit, but a little bit of the same going back, and it's "racist"? Oh dear.

Rolfe.

A search on this forum for the term "porridge-wogs" shows up this thread and one other: the thread about Swedish blondes on the motorway (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4072826), in which Richard M uses the term (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4072826&postcount=17)as an example of an offensive stereotype. Can you remember where someone actually used it on this forum as a "crack" aimed at the Scots?

[Matthew Best]

Ah, RichardM has kindly linked the thread in question. Please feel free to ignore my query now.

[Architect]

In actual fact there were a number of posters who objected to the expression (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2608057) at the time, assuming this is the same incident. I mean the collective outrage didn't make the ceiling fall in, or anything, but to say that there was zero support doesn't seem to be quite correct.

By the looks of it three jocks and one unknown but presumably English person objected. Thanks for the overwhelming support, folks!

[funk de fino]

And had the common sense to go play for a country that will qualify for the World Cup. Smart lad.

Oh well, when Scotland do anything of worth on the modern international football stage, you can comment on England's campaign in the World Cup and be taken seriously. Till then, you're just a bunch of noisy neighbours.

Na, at that age he couldnt really tell his parents he wasnt moving there eh? He is pretty poor also.

As suspected the usual folks have taken this the wrong way and got the hump. Dry your eyes.

I guess when I watched the world cup in England the fans there were not cheering the Scots getting put out. They did not sing cheerio to the Scots players on the bus? I did not get called sweaty sock? Or jock?

No, nothing to see here. Only if someone else does it. Stiff upper lip has become sour faced lack of humour.

I support England in all cricket matches except against us. I follow Sunderland football club. I lived near London for 2 years. I served alongside English, Irish and welsh guys in the services. The whinging about this ABE thing is exactly why it happens. Get a clue people.

[Ashles]

I guess when I watched the world cup in England the fans there were not cheering the Sots getting put out. They did not sing cheerio to the Scots players on the bus? I did not get called sweaty sock? Or jock?

I'm not sure where you are getting the impression anyone here thinks that is acceptable either.

No, nothing to see here. Only if someone else does it. Stiff upper lip has become sour faced lack of humour.

The implication yet again being that an English person taking offense to mild Scottish casual racism is 'lack of humour', yet a Scottish person taking offense at mild English casual racism is totally justified in gettng annoyed.

Can it not be agreed that both are acceptable to you or neither?

I support England in all cricket matches except against us. I follow Sunderland football club. I lived near London for 2 years. I served alongside English, Irish and welsh guys in the services. The whinging about this ABE thing is exactly why it happens. Get a clue people.

They did it so we did it so they did it so we did it... :rolleyes:

And I still don't understannd why it is 'whinging' when the English complain about something, but fair enough when the Scottish complain about the same thing? And in fact is assumed to then justify the Scottish doing the same thing themselves back.

[Agatha]

I wasn't even a member of this forum when that (clearly racist) poster made that remark.

ETA and to funk de fino, no, I don't think English racism against Scots make this ABE thing any more acceptable. Some people think both are funny, some seem to think it's ok as long as they are not on the receiving end. Personally I think that anti-Scots attitude that you decry is just as offensive as an anti-English attitude, and I really object to the assumption that because some mouth-breathers are offensive to Scottish people, then all English people have to take the blame and put up with offensiveness back.

[foxprorawks]

To paraphrase Des Lynam: "The tournament started four days ago, but this is where it really begins."

Brazil are playing tonight...

[funk de fino]

I'm not sure where you are getting the impression anyone here thinks that is acceptable either.

I didnt cry about it. I took it in the manner it was given.

The implication yet again being that an English person taking offense to mild Scottish casual racism is 'lack of humour', yet a Scottish person taking offense at mild English casual racism is totally justified in gettng annoyed.

There is nothing racist about the ABE campaign. I do not get annoyed at ribbing from my English cousins. I just give back what I get. In a nice way.

Irish jokes? Not funny? Blonde jokes? Not funny? Welsh jokes. Not funny? Scottish jokes? Not funny?

Can it not be agreed that both are acceptable to you or neither?

I see no racism anywhere. I see a sense of humour failure by some people with a superiority complex who have the cheek to say we have an inferiority complex.

They did it so we did it so they did it so we did it... :rolleyes:

Why did you lie there?

And I still don't understannd why it is 'whinging' when the English complain about something, but fair enough when the Scottish complain about the same thing? And in fact is assumed to then justify the Scottish doing the same thing themselves back.

You are whinging about a nothing. It's a joke that you have taken too seriously. It's like when someone calls you a nickname at school. The last thing you want to do is let anyone know it really bothers you because it will only make it carry on.

[funk de fino]

I wasn't even a member of this forum when that (clearly racist) poster made that remark.

ETA and to funk de fino, no, I don't think English racism against Scots make this ABE thing any more acceptable. Some people think both are funny, some seem to think it's ok as long as they are not on the receiving end. Personally I think that anti-Scots attitude that you decry is just as offensive as an anti-English attitude, and I really object to the assumption that because some mouth-breathers are offensive to Scottish people, then all English people have to take the blame and put up with offensiveness back.

Object all you want. It is not what I am saying though. If I had said I did it because of this, you may have had a point. It is football, it is like Manc and Scouse banter. It is like Arsenal and Tottenham banter. You want to see real bigotry then look at the Rangers - Celtic stuff. This stuff put me off following the team I supported as a boy and stopped me going to matches. That is real bigotry and serious. The ABE thing is a bit of fun.

I repeat. Some people need to dry their eyes. You are only fanning the flames.

[Rolfe]

This morning -BBC breakfast show: England in the World Cup. Radio 1 - Chris Moyles talking about England in the World Cup. Radio 2 - Chris Evans talking about England in the World Cup. Watching digital on the tv last night - Sun adverts supporting England (get your free flag!). Watch a World Cup match and listen to analysis that constantly goes back to how each game will affect England's chances>

It's pervasive. Its jingo-istic. There's no realisation that, in actual fact, some of us might not give a monkey's about England in the World Cup. We can't change the channel because, generally speaking, the media is English dominated and we're stuck with it. It's like having Brian ruddy Moore or Will blinking Carlin living next door, and there's no escape.

So please, stop with the patronising claim that we can turn over. You wonder why the Celtic nations get upset? You can't see how this kind of blatant wall-to-wall pro-England coverage is a large part of the underlying problem - not some attempt to dress it up as "racism".


I had to go home at lunch time because my mother phoned to say she was feeling unwell. When I got there she was better, and as it was just on one, I said, well let's watch the news.

No luck. Football. Meh.

Rolfe.

[St.Michael]

Can't some people chill out?

I'm English and support England but my other half is Scottish, not a great follower of sports unlike myself but we engage in a bit of fun banter about poor results without falling out.
It's banter, it's part of the nature of supporting a Football team, and all supporters do it.

As long as it doesn't get malicious or violent stop getting worked up about it.

[Rolfe]

No the intention is friendly banter; that you get offended turns it into entertainment.


As always, Lothian encapsulates the situation perfectly. It's only a bloody game!

Hope my t-shirt shows up soon....

Rolfe.

[foxprorawks]

As always, Lothian encapsulates the situation perfectly. It's only a bloody game!

Hope my t-shirt shows up soon....

Rolfe.

Slanj Kilts also sell BABE shirts - "Backing Anyone But England".

Can't post the URL, but I'm sure you'll find it.

[Lothian]

Can't some people chill out?

I'm English and support England but my other half is Scottish, not a great follower of sports unlike myself but we engage in a bit of fun banter about poor results without falling out.
It's banter, it's part of the nature of supporting a Football team, and all supporters do it.

As long as it doesn't get malicious or violent stop getting worked up about it.I could be wrong but I suspect that the world cup may have brought some people to this thread who don't follow sports regularly and are unfamiliar with the banter.

I also think it is fair to say that the banter between people who follow sports regularly can out of context appear to be far more serious and malicious than either party intended or understood.

[Rolfe]

I spent the afternoon working with a couple of blokes, one a Scot and the other a Canadian. The stuff that got said about the English and the Americans would have curled your hair, quite honestly. Some people were apparently awfully conflicted the other night....

Rolfe.

[mummymonkey]

The ABE stuff is mostly harmless that's true. But if somebody says they're uncomfortable with it and perhaps even feels threatened by it then it's only good manners to stop it.

By the way I notice the term "Celtic nations" cropping up a lot here - is this now the official CyberNat term for "not English"?

[Rolfe]

Honestly, nobody is calling anyone names, nobody is making accusations or hurling insults or questioning anyone's parentage. Nobody is being barracked, or humiliated, or bullied.

It's a statement, in many cases tongue in cheek, of intended alliegance in a bunch of football matches. Total life expectancy, probably about a fortnight.

If that's enough to get someone uncomfortable, maybe they should apply for the "princess and the pea" award.

Rolfe.

[commandlinegamer]

You want to see real bigotry then look at the Rangers - Celtic stuff.

^This.


However, this is the first time I recall anything like the ABE stuff (T-shirts, posters, English broadcasters noticing the effect). It's been around a long time, but not codified as such.

[Rolfe]

Blame Andy Murray. He knew not what he did.

Mind you, one of these guys I work with claims to have an old t-shirt saying "I support two teams - Scotland and whoever's playing England". I'm pretty sure I've seen that wording around here and there for years.

Rolfe.

[funk de fino]

^This.


However, this is the first time I recall anything like the ABE stuff (T-shirts, posters, English broadcasters noticing the effect). It's been around a long time, but not codified as such.

Argie shirts and hero worship of Maradonna have been an ongoing thing for a while. My grandfather spent the whole of the war in a POW camp in Poland after being captured at St Valery. Guess who he was supporting in 1990 semi final?

England's best song - Are you Scotland in disguise? It's banter, and those who cannot see it and dress it up in racism need to have a word with themselves.

[Just_Me]

funk de fino made a point i was going to . rangers v celtic is a perfrect example of how over seriously football is taken . they both have relgious and political connections no football team should have .

as i am a football fan myself i love the friendly banter, that is a good laugh . i have also been subjected to abuse that has been a bit more serious because of the football team i choose to support ( being female i presume i am thought of as an easy target for that sort of crap ) . the thing is though i know the difference between the two .

[Checkmite]

What kind of stupidity is this? "Anyone but England"??? If you don't like England's team, root for a different team, that's fine no matter where you live - but pick a team. I can't take anybody as a serious soccer fan that follows a philosophy like "anyone BUT team x". They can't possibly have any actual interest in the proceedings beyond the daily newspaper scores.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Heh, keep tweaking their noses, ABE supporters. The reactions are hilariously serious :p .

[Ian Osborne]

Well, if Scotland qualify for a major tournament during our lifetimes, we promise to support the opposition just to make things fair. :D

[Architect]

It's only 12 years since our last World Cup.......opening game against Brasil and all that. You'd remember it, but it got scant coverage in the English media. Apparently there wasn't a lot of support for us south of the Border.

;)

[Lothian]

Well, if Scotland qualify for a major tournament during our lifetimes, we promise to support the opposition just to make things fair. :D
We will run the risk.:D

[manofthesea]

There was one true Scot on the field during the US vs. England game. Stuart Holden from Aberdeen. You all know that though. I'm sure there a quite a few with Scottish and Irish roots on the US team.

Holden being a true Scot must be familiar with and hold the same thoughts of rivalry with England. I wonder if at the end of the game he directly approached Green to exchange jerseys. Did anyone see who exchanged jerseys with Green?

(I think Dunga is "anti football" personified. Leaving Pato and Gaucho off.)

[Ian Osborne]

It's only 12 years since our last World Cup.......opening game against Brasil and all that. You'd remember it, but it got scant coverage in the English media. Apparently there wasn't a lot of support for us south of the Border.

;)

I don't remember what the coverage was like for the 1998 World Cup, but I do remember watching the qualifiers for this year's event and the last European Cup in the pub. I remember everyone in there getting behind Scotland too. The English support Scotland against any team other than our own, but maybe this will change next time around.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Blame Andy Murray. He knew not what he did.

Mind you, one of these guys I work with claims to have an old t-shirt saying "I support two teams - Scotland and whoever's playing England". I'm pretty sure I've seen that wording around here and there for years.

Rolfe.

BBC Wales ran a 6 Nations campaign several years back based around the song 'As long as we beat the English'.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I also think it is fair to say that the banter between people who follow sports regularly can out of context appear to be far more serious and malicious than either party intended or understood.

Indeed. In rugby (a proper game, unlike this soccer rubbish:p) for instance it is quite common for myself and fellow supporters to refer to supporters of our nearest rivals as 'One eyed, baby-eating turks'*. said supporters will even refer to themselves using the same terminology. Neither side is remotely offended by it and, indeed the 'turks' will wear said appellation as a badge of pride whilst simultaneously referring to my mob as 'Cave dwelling Neefanderthals'.

*Just to explain to any Turkish posters, this is not an anti-Turkish thing at all. There are several explanations for why people from Llanelli are referred to as 'Turks', none of which would be seen as offensive to Turkish people. I can go through them if people wish.

[Ashles]

I didnt cry about it. I took it in the manner it was given.

Which is why you are still going on about it?


I see no racism anywhere. I see a sense of humour failure by some people with a superiority complex who have the cheek to say we have an inferiority complex.

I suspect you are actually entirely oblivious to the hypocrisy in that sentence.

You are whinging about a nothing. It's a joke that you have taken too seriously. It's like when someone calls you a nickname at school. The last thing you want to do is let anyone know it really bothers you because it will only make it carry on.

It would have been hoped posters here could be slightly more mature than school insult level actions and reactions.
Sadly not.

I guess if you are freely admitting your behaviour is exactly akin to that of a child then there is no point in continuing this discussion with you.

[Ashles]

If that's enough to get someone uncomfortable, maybe they should apply for the "princess and the pea" award.

Yet this for some reason doesn't aply to you when you take offense at something anti-Scottish.

Double-standards much?

[Ashles]

The ABE stuff is mostly harmless that's true. But if somebody says they're uncomfortable with it and perhaps even feels threatened by it then it's only good manners to stop it.

Good point mummymonkey.

If it were genuinely just a bit of fun with no underlying anti-English sentiment one might have expected that would have been exactly what would have happened.
Had it come across that no offense was really intended I would equally have apologised for overreacting and the whole thing would have ended.

But the rather malicious and agressive continuance of the 'joke' tells me a very different story.
I have in fairly short order been accused of having "a sense of humour failure", a "superiority complex", "sour faced lack of humour", "lying", being like the "princess and the pea" and having a view that encourages people to join the SNP.
Good natured banter is it?
And watching other posters wade in encouraging them to carry on actually because is clearly causing a degree of offence (well ha ha ha) is equally unpleasant.

Oh well I await certain posters finding something offensive to them in the future and I'm sure they will be comfortable with people calling them oversensitive, lacking a sense of humour and being a "princess and a pea".

I find this thread actually fairly distasteful.

[KoihimeNakamura]

In the words of a bunch of people when I tried to describe this thread

"Stop telling us about horrible things that aren't funny."

[Rolfe]

If you really think "ABE" is, or is intended to be, "anti-English", I think you're taking all this way too seriously.

Rolfe.

[brodski]

If you really think "ABE" is, or is intended to be, "anti-English", I think you're taking all this way too seriously.

Rolfe.

This shouldbe good, how is "anyone but England" not "anti-English" [/i]by definition[/i]?

This should be good, how is "anyone but England" not "anti-English" [/i]by definition[/i]?

It may be jovial, relatively good natured and/ or non-serious, but it clealy is based on anti-English sentiment.

[commandlinegamer]

There is an exception to the rule: Scotland will support England if they're playing Uruguay, apparently.

I presume in the distant past Uruguay must have committed some absolutely heinous act against the Scots team, but I've been unable to tie it to anything specific.

If anyone else knows?

[Ashles]

If you really think "ABE" is, or is intended to be, "anti-English", I think you're taking all this way too seriously.

It has been clearly explained to you that multiple posters do find the ABE to be anti-English.

And it's not like you don't have a posting history for context.
You are a very vocal supporter of the SNP, you have derailed several previous threads with pro-Scottish comments, you are not a football supporter and yet you have changed your avatar to an anti-English slogan.
It's quite hard to see how your support of ABE is a purely football-related bit of fun.

I would have thought if you genuinely intended no offense then your reponses would be a little more conciliatory than they in fact are.

Maybe you aren't taking this seriously enough.

[Lothian]

This shouldbe good, how is "anyone but England" not "anti-English" [/i]by definition[/i]?

This should be good, how is "anyone but England" not "anti-English" [/i]by definition[/i]?

It may be jovial, relatively good natured and/ or non-serious, but it clealy is based on anti-English sentiment.
When you rank anything something will be at the bottom of the list. That you prefer one over another does not mean you don’t like the thing at the bottom.

Imagine entering a pub and seeing a row of real ale pumps. One you are very familiar with but the others you haven’t tired. You might say when asked “I will have anything except London Pride.”

It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Pride it is just the others take your fancy more. Same with the World Cup we like Ingerland we just prefer supporting the others this time round.

[Lothian]

It has been clearly explained to you that multiple posters do find the ABE to be anti-English.

And it's not like you don't have a posting history for context.
You are a very vocal supporter of the SNP, you have derailed several previous threads with pro-Scottish comments, you are not a football supporter and yet you have changed your avatar to an anti-English slogan.
It's quite hard to see how your support of ABE is a purely football-related bit of fun.

I would have thought if you genuinely intended no offense then your reponses would be a little more conciliatory than they in fact are.

Maybe you aren't taking this seriously enough.Out of interest. How big a football fan are you and do you think you might be taking this too seriously?

[Ashles]

When you rank anything something will be at the bottom of the list. That you prefer one over another does not mean you don’t like the thing at the bottom.

Imagine entering a pub and seeing a row of real ale pumps. One you are very familiar with but the others you haven’t tired. You might say when asked “I will have anything except London Pride.”

It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Pride it is just the others take your fancy more. Same with the World Cup we like Ingerland we just prefer supporting the others this time round.

But would you then create an avatar and t-Shirt saying "Anything except London Pride"?
To acttively broadcast such a message and go out of your way to communicate it sends a message that you actually dislike the thing to a point where you want it known to others.

[Lothian]

But would you then create an avatar and t-Shirt saying "Anything except London Pride"?
To acttively broadcast such a message and go out of your way to communicate it sends a message that you actually dislike the thing to a point where you want it known to others.Obviously I was giving an allegory.

I fully accept that if your friend asked you what you wanted to drink you would not rush out of the pub, go buy a t shirt from the market, then go to a print shop and get “anything but London pride” emblazoned on the front before returning to show it to your friend and all and sundry.

In pubs it is normal to just to tell each other what you want. For football the way people normally express who they are supporting is traditionally through shirts, more latterly through flags flying on cars.

The principle in each case is exactly the same. You are answering a question 'direct or implied' in the accepted manner and in each case you are expressing your preference by reference to your least preferred option.

[Ashles]

Out of interest. How big a football fan are you and do you think you might be taking this too seriously?

I love the World Cup and follow it avidly. I am not really a fan of league football.

The sad thing is what I love most about the World Cup is how international it is and watching all the countries come together who often would not have a great deal of interaction. Brazil v North Korea? Fantastic. Fun to watch. Where else will you see those two competing?

I never quite understand the comments to "chill out" or "stop taking something so seriously".
Do I get to decide when it's okay for other people to feel strongly about something, and when they should just ignore it?

I don't care about football-related banter (and for reference yes I do understand it and am often surrounded by it with my friends who are passionate about their teams).

The reason I am taking this seriously is that I sense an underlying anti-English sentiment to the campaign that has little to do with football. I find this genuinely uncomfortable.

It's not exactly in debate that many Scottish people do harbour anti-English sentiment and this campaign can certainly be adopted by some of these people. Seeing the campaign and the symbol can come across in the same way a St George's flag could have been perceived 15 years ago. Overtly one thing that is innocent, but potentially indicative of something else.

Now it's obviously hard to tell who is sporting the ABE attitude as a bit of footie fun, and who is using it to be display anti-English sentiment.

But on this thread the agressive approach of some posters had made me feel that, for all their protestations of it just being banter, of something they are genuinely enjoying being perceived as offensive.
This could easily have been defused - but some posters chose not to.

[Rolfe]

However, this is the first time I recall anything like the ABE stuff (T-shirts, posters, English broadcasters noticing the effect). It's been around a long time, but not codified as such.


In more detail, it does seem to have started with Andy Murray.

Four years ago, during Wimbledon, there was a light-hearted TV interview with both Murray and Tim Henman. During the interview, Murray was asked who he was supporting in the World Cup, which was on at the time. Murray (aged all of 18) laughed, turmed to Henman, and quipped "anyone but England!"

It was a JOKE. These "I support two teams" shirts had been around for a while, it was pretty standard banter, when talking to an English friend. You'd think the sky had fallen in. He was accused of racism, jingoism, and some people booed him on court at Wimbledon. Murray was reduced at one point to declaring that a saltire baseball cap he owned was just a pattern of a white cross on a blue cap, just abstract, you know.... because of course it's racist to wear your own country's flag on a baseball cap.

It all died down, but then some time ago, can't remember exactly when, somebody had the idea of putting this on a t-shirt. The t-shirts were on display in a window of a shop, I think it was in Aberdeen, along with a whole range of other shirts supporting about every team you could think of. A policeman entered the shop and told the shopkeeper to stop displaying and selling the shirts because they were racist.

There was a minor fuss about this, and it transpired that nobody at all had complained about the shirts. It was the policeman's own idea to go into the shop and bully the shopkeeper. The policeman was told he was out of order and the shirts went back in the window. The shopkeeper said he had no particular alliegiance, he just sold the shirts people wanted to buy, and he'd had a reasonable number of sales for the ABE ones.

This incident made it into the newspapers, and I remember a short item about it on the TV news. This publicity sparked a whole lot of interest, and sales rocketed. The rest, as they say, is history.

I think the lesson is, if you want it to go away, ignore it.

Nobody is being insulted. Nobody is being belittled, or bad-mouthed. It isn't even about people. It's about a football tournament, which will be over in a couple of weeks. In many cases, the tongue is firmly in the cheek. Wildly over-sensitive protestations about "ire" and "rage" and "anti-English sentiment" just make it funnier.

Rolfe.

[Dragon]

If you really think "ABE" is, or is intended to be, "anti-English", I think you're taking all this way too seriously.

Rolfe. As a Welshman who's lived in London for nearly 30 years I'm well used to the arrogance displayed in some English quarters so I get the point of this, but I wouldn't subscribe to "ABE" myself. No doubt some are taking it too seriously, but I think the "ABE" thing lacks class and gets almost as wearing as English chauvinism after a while.
I actually hope they do well - in the sense of playing good football and living up to their potential - it will probably end in tears, though.
At least the press will be able to blame it all on an Italian.

Oh - and those of you who are conflicted when certain countries play each other know nothing. You have to be Welsh when England are playing the All Blacks at rugby to truly understand the meaning of inner conflict.

[Ashles]

Obviously I was giving an allegory.

I thought it was a good allegory, and it illustrated why I felt the ABE campaign came across as something very different from "we like all teams, we just happen to like England the least".

You don't start a campaign to express that.

And in reality I don't think it is realistic to claim that is the sentiment behind the campaign.In pubs it is normal to just to tell each other what you want. For football the way people normally express who they are supporting is traditionally through shirts, more latterly through flags flying on cars.

What is not normal is to wear clothes specifying which team you like the least. Nobody does that.
If someone hypothetically turned up to a football match wearing a T-Shirt which read "Anyone but Manchester United" would you honestly think "Well it sounds like that guy likes all the teams in the league, but I guess he just doesn't like Manchester United quite as much as the other teams".

The principle in each case is exactly the same. You are answering a question 'direct or implied' in the accepted manner and in each case you are expressing your preference by reference to your least preferred option.

I'm sorry but I can't buy that the ABE campaign is an expression of liking England, just not quite as much as any other team in the world.
If it genuinely is then I have to say it is rather misjudged as many people find it to be no more than an anti-English sentiment.
And I see no reason why England should have to tolerate such expressions any more than any other country.

[Ashles]

In many cases, the tongue is firmly in the cheek. Wildly over-sensitive protestations about "ire" and "rage" and "anti-English sentiment" just make it funnier.

And if it generates an anti-Scottish backlash will that make it even funnier still?

Presumably you will ROFL if a Scottish man wearing an ABE T-Shirt gets beaten up.

Most people in England pretty much generally support Scotland becoming independent - I wonder if silly campaigns such as ABE might damage that perception.

Wouldn't that be hilarious.

[Architect]

Tolerate such expressions? And yet you don't see why the wall-to-wall Engerland coverage causes ire in the Celtic nations. Hmmm...

Sauce for goose, sauce for gander. Stick out your own eye etc.

[Architect]

Most people in England pretty much generally support Scotland becoming independent - I wonder if silly campaigns such as ABE might damage that perception.

Wouldn't that be hilarious.

Really? Such people are woefully under-represented amongst their countrymen here then.

[Ian Osborne]

Tolerate such expressions? And yet you don't see why the wall-to-wall Engerland coverage causes ire in the Celtic nations.

If any of the Celtic nations had qualified for the World Cup finals, you might have a point. But you didn't. Get over it.

[Lothian]

IWhat is not normal is to wear clothes specifying which team you like the least. Nobody does that.
If someone hypothetically turned up to a football match wearing a T-Shirt which read "Anyone but Manchester United" would you honestly think "Well it sounds like that guy likes all the teams in the league, but I guess he just doesn't like Manchester United quite as much as the other teams".I disagree it is just a matter of scale. You get many people will see many scarves and t shirts at domestic football which express support for one team or another. You also get people wearing clobber that expresses support for more than one team, e.g Liverpool shirt & Celtic scarf.
How many items of clothing would someone have to wear to say they are supporting South Africa, Algeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Australia, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Honduras, Mexico, United States, and New Zealand?

I know it can get cold in Scotland, even in summer, but seriously that many clothes? ABE 2010 is a quick way of expressing support for the above teams.


I'm sorry but I can't buy that the ABE campaign is an expression of liking England, just not quite as much as any other team in the world.If my beer analogy doesn't help I am not sure there is much else I can do to help your understanding here, but to answer one of your ealier questions I see ABE as a bit of footie fun.

[Lothian]

How many items of clothing would someone have to wear to say they are supporting South Africa, Algeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Australia, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Honduras, Mexico, United States, and New Zealand?Scratch Brazil, I have thought of a short cut.

[Ashles]

I disagree it is just a matter of scale. You get many people will see many scarves and t shirts at domestic football which express support for one team or another. You also get people wearing clobber that expresses support for more than one team, e.g Liverpool shirt & Celtic scarf.
How many items of clothing would someone have to wear to say they are supporting South Africa, Algeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Australia, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Honduras, Mexico, United States, and New Zealand?

I know it can get cold in Scotland, even in summer, but seriously that many clothes? ABE 2010 is a quick way of expressing support for the above teams.

If my beer analogy doesn't help I am not sure there is much else I can do to help your understanding here, but to answer one of your ealier questions I see ABE as a bit of footie fun.

I do disagree, but I appreciate your responses.

[Just_Me]

Tolerate such expressions? And yet you don't see why the wall-to-wall Engerland coverage causes ire in the Celtic nations. Hmmm...

if you don;t like the coverage turn off your tv and put down the newspapers . problem solved , you don;t see or hear it . i don;t understand whats making you look at something that obviously bothers you . you said yourself ignore it and it goes away . if you want to follow thw world cup you can do so online . you have better control over what you see .

you also seem to be suggesting there is no serious anti english feeling in scotland .i wonder how true that is .

[Architect]

if you don;t like the coverage turn off your tv and put down the newspapers . problem solved , you don;t see or hear it . i don;t understand whats making you look at something that obviously bothers you . you said yourself ignore it and it goes away . if you want to follow thw world cup you can do so online . you have better control over what you see .

Sorry, are you seriously suggesting that we don't look at any of the national (i.e. UK) media for the next fortnight? Seriously? A viable solution? The 7.5m of us in the Celtic home nations don't watch telly?

Can I get a refund on my licence fee for the period?

You can watch RTE. We have the BBC, ITV, and Sky; frankly, they're all running the same Engerland crap. Fortunately we still have a largely seperate newspaper industry, otherwise we'd have no escape.



you also seem to be suggesting there is no serious anti english feeling in scotland .i wonder how true that is .

About the same as in the Irish Republic, I should imagine.

[Last of the Fraggles]

I see you managed to not read the actual words of my post.

If it is football related it is friendly rivalry - when it isn't then it at least borders on racism.
Argentinians and Germans are in everyday life perfectly safe and welcome in England. Scottish posters themselves have described how English people are not similarly welcomed in parts of Scotland. That is actually racism.

And I am not particularly defending the 'friendly rivalry' either when it gets unpleasant.

It just saddens me to see posters like Rolfe who I respect sporting an avatar which I actually find a little unpleasant and at least a touch racist.

English people have no issue with Scottish people or, as far as I am aware from anyone I have spoken to about it, with Scottish independence. It upsets people like me who feel this way yet feel this constant low level hatred coming the other way.

And when a campaign like this is kept up it can be massively counterproductive.

In what way is Scotland wanting England to lose in the World Cup not based on footballing rivalry? And the German and Argentinian rivalries are alright because they are based on football - yet you don't have the same issues with italy, portugal, netherlands, brazil or anyone else?

Racism? Get over yourself.

As for the English not being able to watch the game in Scotland - have you actually tried it? A sizeable percentage of Scotland will be supporting England as they always do. If you want to vocally support a team's major rivals in public in the heart of the 'enemy camp' then you are going to get unwanted attention anywhere - try supporting Germany in the middle of Amsterdam or the Argies in the middle of Birmingham.

I also don't know where you came to the conclusion that English people have no problem with Scotland - they absolutely do when they feel the uppity Scots are getting ideas above their station. There were plenty grumps and moans about the Scottish mafia running the previous government for example.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Well, if Scotland qualify for a major tournament during our lifetimes, we promise to support the opposition just to make things fair. :D

Oh please do. In fact I'd prefer it that way.

Something that is missed out in this ABE is that is one small way in which Scots and other celtic nations can express their separate identity.

To the rest of the world England and Britain are interchangeable at times, we as Scots get lumped in with the rest of the UK. Isn't it understandable that Scots want to show the world that they AREN'T England - and here is one harmless way they can do it.

[Ashles]

In what way is Scotland wanting England to lose in the World Cup not based on footballing rivalry? And the German and Argentinian rivalries are alright because they are based on football - yet you don't have the same issues with italy, portugal, netherlands, brazil or anyone else?

Racism? Get over yourself.

You need to reread my posts. I have already specifically adressed such comments.

As for the English not being able to watch the game in Scotland - have you actually tried it? A sizeable percentage of Scotland will be supporting England as they always do. If you want to vocally support a team's major rivals in public in the heart of the 'enemy camp' then you are going to get unwanted attention anywhere - try supporting Germany in the middle of Amsterdam or the Argies in the middle of Birmingham.

I'm not sure who this comment is aimed at - I haven't at any point referred to an English person watching the football in Scotland.

I also don't know where you came to the conclusion that English people have no problem with Scotland - they absolutely do when they feel the uppity Scots are getting ideas above their station. There were plenty grumps and moans about the Scottish mafia running the previous government for example.

What like Tony Blair who the majority of the country voted into power? Where was the issue with someone Scottish there? And Gordon Brown was his Chancellor.
I really do not understand your comment. Again it seems to take two incompatible stances - claiming the English didn't like having two Scottish man in charge of their country, even though they actually voted them in.

Whenever I have discussed Scottish independence with anyone I have never personally met anyone English who was opposed to this.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence for your claim about people moaning about the Scottish mafia running the country (and why this would be relevant as clearly they did not achieve anything pro-Scottish that you would appear to approve of).

[Last of the Fraggles]

There is an exception to the rule: Scotland will support England if they're playing Uruguay, apparently.

I presume in the distant past Uruguay must have committed some absolutely heinous act against the Scots team, but I've been unable to tie it to anything specific.

If anyone else knows?

I doubt it. Only thing I can think of is that Uruguay knocked us out of Mexico 86 by kicking us off the park. They're forgiven.

Can't think of anyone I wouldn't support against England - maybe the Nazi Kiddy Fiddlers Select XI, but even that would be 50/50. ;)

[Matthew Best]

Still, at least Robert Green will never have to buy his own drinks in Scotland again.

[Mashuna]

Scratch Brazil, I have thought of a short cut.

:D

Nominated, despite possibly disturbing mental images.

[Ashles]

Sorry, are you seriously suggesting that we don't look at any of the national (i.e. UK) media for the next fortnight? Seriously? A viable solution? The 7.5m of us in the Celtic home nations don't watch telly?

Man I don't know what they are doing on Scottish TV at the moment - in England there are hundreds of non-football related programmes on TV every single day. And when they do broadcast the football they even show the matches that don't involve England at all.

I don't know why the scheduling is so strangely different in Scotland that you are literally unable to turn on the TV without seeing England related football programming.

[Lothian]

To emphasize this is just a football thing. When it comes to cricket I am happy to get behind the likes of Craig Kieswetter, Matt Prior, Michael Lumb, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Trott, Eoin Morgan, Andrew Strauss and the other English boys.

[Last of the Fraggles]

You need to reread my posts. I have already specifically adressed such comments.

I'm not sure who this comment is aimed at - I haven't at any point referred to an English person watching the football in Scotland.

What like Tony Blair who the majority of the country voted into power? Where was the issue with someone Scottish there? And Gordon Brown was his Chancellor.
I really do not understand your comment. Again it seems to take two incompatible stances - claiming the English didn't like having two Scottish man in charge of their country, even though they actually voted them in.

Whenever I have discussed Scottish independence with anyone I have never personally met anyone English who was opposed to this.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence for your claim about people moaning about the Scottish mafia running the country (and why this would be relevant as clearly they did not achieve anything pro-Scottish that you would appear to approve of).

If you addressed those comments you did so poorly. How is Germany different to Portugal or Brazil? They've all knocked you out of World Cups.

Since this was a football-related thread I assumed your comments about English not being welcomed in Scotland was related to football supporting. If it was just a general point then well done on changing the topic. How is it relevant?

What has Scottish independence got to do with anything? Whether English people support it or not is irrelevant to football.

As for 'Scottish Mafia' would suggest you google the term for evidence. There is plenty there. I lost count of how many times Brown's Scottish roots were referred to when he was PM. I don't remember hearing that Thatcher or Major were 'English' except when someone wanted to score a political point. It certainly cuts both ways.

Anyway, this is about football. At this World Cup I am supporting Brazil, Argentina, both Koreas, Anyone But England, Anyone but France and whoever the hell I see fit. If you can't get over someone having different football preferences than you then it's not my problem, if you can't get over someone making them known then it's not my problem either. If you can't tell the difference between someone disliking your national football team and the pathetic circus that surrounds it and someone hating an entire country well....NMFP.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Man I don't know what they are doing on Scottish TV at the moment - in England there are hundreds of non-football related programmes on TV every single day. And when they do broadcast the football they even show the matches that don't involve England at all.

I don't know why the scheduling is so strangely different in Scotland that you are literally unable to turn on the TV without seeing England related football programming.

I love football and want to watch the world cup. So you're suggesting that I shouldn't watch it because I might see things I don't like and at the same time wanting to stop people displaying ABE?!? In similar style then, don't log into the forums if you don't like ABE and maybe stay home in case someone passes you on the street wearing that shirt?

I would like to see the World Cup with good insightful build up programmes that tell me something I didn't know about what I'm about to see. Not derisory comments about everyone else then a cut to the latest news on England's laundry situation!

Of course in your ideal world the Celtic nations would all switch off and let the English media carry on their little xenophobic, jingoistic anti German/Argentina/Australia/USA/Anyone else they choose love-ins without complaint. Or join in. Because to express any sentiment against the English team would be 'racist'

[mbp]

let the English media carry on their little xenophobic, jingoistic anti German/Argentina/Australia/USA/Anyone else they choose love-ins without complaint.The 10+ hours of World Cup coverage I've seen on BBC and ITV has been a mixed bag, but I've not encountered anything remotely similar to what you've just described.
(And I'm not English, btw.)

[Ashles]

If you addressed those comments you did so poorly. How is Germany different to Portugal or Brazil? They've all knocked you out of World Cups.

Since this was a football-related thread I assumed your comments about English not being welcomed in Scotland was related to football supporting. If it was just a general point then well done on changing the topic. How is it relevant?

What has Scottish independence got to do with anything? Whether English people support it or not is irrelevant to football.

Boy have you missed the point of my posts - it doesn't appear as if you have actually read them.
I feel that ABE actually isn't about football - that's kind of the point of my posts.
And the tone with which some people seem to adopt and defend it seems to me to confirm this.
You disagree. Fine. I didn't expect you to agree.

As for 'Scottish Mafia' would suggest you google the term for evidence. There is plenty there. I lost count of how many times Brown's Scottish roots were referred to when he was PM. I don't remember hearing that Thatcher or Major were 'English' except when someone wanted to score a political point. It certainly cuts both ways.

I thought you meant people here. That some people on the internet might make stupid racist comments is hardly in doubt.

Anyway, this is about football. At this World Cup I am supporting Brazil, Argentina, both Koreas, Anyone But England, Anyone but France and whoever the hell I see fit. If you can't get over someone having different football preferences than you then it's not my problem, if you can't get over someone making them known then it's not my problem either. If you can't tell the difference between someone disliking your national football team and the pathetic circus that surrounds it and someone hating an entire country well....NMFP.

Well the difference is actually not that easy to tell.
Hypothetically it would be very easy to support ABE mainly because you dislike England. And then claim it was just a bit of football fun. While laughing to yourself and enjoying someone English finding the sentiment a tad unpleasant. And then doing what you could to continue them feeling that way.
Hypothetically.

[Ashles]

I would like to see the World Cup with good insightful build up programmes that tell me something I didn't know about what I'm about to see. Not derisory comments about everyone else then a cut to the latest news on England's laundry situation!

Of course in your ideal world the Celtic nations would all switch off and let the English media carry on their little xenophobic, jingoistic anti German/Argentina/Australia/USA/Anyone else they choose love-ins without complaint. Or join in. Because to express any sentiment against the English team would be 'racist'

Yeah.... except none of that is actually happening outside of your own head.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Oh - and those of you who are conflicted when certain countries play each other know nothing. You have to be Welsh when England are playing the All Blacks at rugby to truly understand the meaning of inner conflict.

Really?!? What part of Wales are you from? In my area there'd be no question that it'd be the All Blacks that would be supported. Which I do have trouble explaining to my English wife...just as she struggles to understand why I support France against England.

For Ashles - I agree with you in that it is a sign of anti-English sentiment, however I think you're assuming that's a malicious thing whereas (a few idiots aside) it's not. With reference to my earlier posts, I would banter that I would rather see anyone but Llanelli / The Scarlets (our local rivals)win a game of rugby and even mean it to a certain extent because, in sporting terms it then allows us 'braggers rights' for a bit of mickey taking. I have many friends who support Llanelli, happily go to matches with them and congratulate them if they win. I'll also sit alongside them to support Wales together (luckily not many Scarlets make the team now!).

Spice is added to this sort of rivalry by the actions of the media and their complete hysteria and lack of impartiality when (massively over) reporting on the soccer World Cup. They could learn a lot from the great Bill McLaren, who never let his Scottishness (and he was a very proud Scot) get in the way of his commentating and reporting.

As to all English people supporting an independent Scotland, yes, all the ones I know do....in their own words ''cos they want rid of them.';)

I'm going to bow out now as I recognise some people are genuinely offended by all this. I think you're wrong to be, but you are so, fair enough....I'm outta here and no change of avatar for me....much as I see the humour in it.

[Ian Osborne]

I love football and want to watch the world cup. So you're suggesting that I shouldn't watch it because I might see things I don't like and at the same time wanting to stop people displaying ABE?!? In similar style then, don't log into the forums if you don't like ABE and maybe stay home in case someone passes you on the street wearing that shirt?

I would like to see the World Cup with good insightful build up programmes that tell me something I didn't know about what I'm about to see. Not derisory comments about everyone else then a cut to the latest news on England's laundry situation!

Of course in your ideal world the Celtic nations would all switch off and let the English media carry on their little xenophobic, jingoistic anti German/Argentina/Australia/USA/Anyone else they choose love-ins without complaint. Or join in. Because to express any sentiment against the English team would be 'racist'

If you want to watch the football but object to the British media mentioning the only British team in the tournament, perhaps you should take an extended break and watch the coverage from an Australian hotel room? You'll probably have an 'Anyone But the Soccaroos' avatar within a day.

[Dragon]

Really?!? What part of Wales are you from? In my area there'd be no question that it'd be the All Blacks that would be supported. Which I do have trouble explaining to my English wife...just as she struggles to understand why I support France against England.

For Ashles - I agree with you in that it is a sign of anti-English sentiment, however I think you're assuming that's a malicious thing whereas (a few idiots aside) it's not. With reference to my earlier posts, I would banter that I would rather see anyone but Llanelli / The Scarlets (our local rivals)win a game of rugby and even mean it to a certain extent because, in sporting terms it then allows us 'braggers rights' for a bit of mickey taking. I have many friends who support Llanelli, happily go to matches with them and congratulate them if they win. I'll also sit alongside them to support Wales together (luckily not many Scarlets make the team now!).

Spice is added to this sort of rivalry by the actions of the media and their complete hysteria and lack of impartiality when (massively over) reporting on the soccer World Cup. They could learn a lot from the great Bill McLaren, who never let his Scottishness (and he was a very proud Scot) get in the way of his commentating and reporting.

As to all English people supporting an independent Scotland, yes, all the ones I know do....in their own words ''cos they want rid of them.';)

I'm going to bow out now as I recognise some people are genuinely offended by all this. I think you're wrong to be, but you are so, fair enough....I'm outta here and no change of avatar for me....much as I see the humour in it.You'd be a Swansea Jack, then? As to the New Zealand/England thing I'll just say - Andy Haden and Frank Oliver, Cardiff 1978.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Yeah.... except none of that is actually happening outside of your own head.

So, for example, I didn't hear Tyldsley dismissing the US national anthem and saying 'let's listen to THE national anthem' before the England game on Saturday night then?

Just one example among many. That's before I even get into the associated coverage of people like James Corden.

I've watched pretty much every minute of the World Cup coverages and its been overly jingoistic and pretty much dismissive of every country except England.

Of course its all imagined because according to some posters here non-English people shouldn't be watching World Cup coverage on TV!

[Cuddles]

Really?!? What part of Wales are you from? In my area there'd be no question that it'd be the All Blacks that would be supported. Which I do have trouble explaining to my English wife...just as she struggles to understand why I support France against England.

For Ashles - I agree with you in that it is a sign of anti-English sentiment, however I think you're assuming that's a malicious thing whereas (a few idiots aside) it's not. With reference to my earlier posts, I would banter that I would rather see anyone but Llanelli / The Scarlets (our local rivals)win a game of rugby and even mean it to a certain extent because, in sporting terms it then allows us 'braggers rights' for a bit of mickey taking. I have many friends who support Llanelli, happily go to matches with them and congratulate them if they win. I'll also sit alongside them to support Wales together (luckily not many Scarlets make the team now!).

Spice is added to this sort of rivalry by the actions of the media and their complete hysteria and lack of impartiality when (massively over) reporting on the soccer World Cup. They could learn a lot from the great Bill McLaren, who never let his Scottishness (and he was a very proud Scot) get in the way of his commentating and reporting.

As to all English people supporting an independent Scotland, yes, all the ones I know do....in their own words ''cos they want rid of them.';)

I'm going to bow out now as I recognise some people are genuinely offended by all this. I think you're wrong to be, but you are so, fair enough....I'm outta here and no change of avatar for me....much as I see the humour in it.

Pretty much this. Yes, it is anti-English, there's absolutely no point in denying it. And no, it's not based solely, or even mainly in many cases, on just sporting rivalry. But that still doesn't mean it's anything more than a bit of fun. I'm Welsh, and I've been supporting anyone who plays against England for ages. I never even knew anyone not Welsh did the same thing until I saw this thread. Yet my father is in fact English (and a southern pansy to boot). Most of my friends are English. I now live in England.

It's not racism (since when was English a race anyway?), it's not an insult, it's not an expression of hate. Sure, it's not just friendly sporting rivalry. But it is just friendly rivalry. Cambridge and Oxford make fun of each other all the time, not just when sport is involved. The US and Canada make fun of each other (which is silly, since Canada isn't even a real country anyway). North Wales and South Wales make fun of each other (at least, South Wales does, it's hard to tell what those crazy gogs up north are saying). Everyone makes fun of New Zealand. It's not racism. It's not bigotry. It's just friendly banter.

Are some people offended by it? I'm sure they are. Some people are offended by anyone working on Sunday, some people are offended if you eat cows, some people are offended by fags, some people are offended by people calling gay men fags. No matter what words, actions or thoughts you can think of, someone, somewhere will be offended by it. The fact that someone is offended by something is not a good reason to stop doing it, unless they actually have a good reason for being offended. In this case, the only people who are offended are those who simply have the wrong end of the stick. And I have no doubt you could find someone who would be offended by that.

And yet you don't see why the wall-to-wall Engerland coverage causes ire in the Celtic nations.

I don't see why it causes ire in the Celtic nations because as far as I'm aware it doesn't. I've never heard anyone complain about there being too much coverage of England before. Plenty of complaints about the media being too London-centric, but most of that comes from other parts of England. Hell, I live in England at the moment and I have no problem at all avoiding England coverage. I haven't even tried to avoid it, I just haven't seen it. I watched the tennis at the weekend, I've watched a bit of TV like The Simpsons, South Park and the news over the last couple of days. Other than a bit of coverage of the opening ceremony (although a lot less than for the winter Olympics) and the usual mentions in the sports sections, I seem to have missed it entirely. There are a few adverts involving England, but for the most part they're actually less annoying than all the other adverts.

Just as the people taking offence at the "anyone but England" thing seem to be going out of their way to be offended, so it seems the people taking offence at coverage of England are as well. Sure, you may not be able to avoid it completely. After all, it is probably the biggest sporting event and one of the most watched broadcasts in the world, so it would seem a bit odd not to hear it mentioned from time to time. But even in England it's perfectly possible to avoid it almost entirely.

[Last of the Fraggles]

If you want to watch the football but object to the British media mentioning the only British team in the tournament, perhaps you should take an extended break and watch the coverage from an Australian hotel room? You'll probably have an 'Anyone But the Soccaroos' avatar within a day.

I don't object to the British media mentioning and covering the only British team in the tournament - where did you get that idea? I object to them covering the English team to the exclusion of everything else.

They display a distinct ignorance of anything that happens outside of England and a lack of respect for countries like Algeria, Slovenia, Slovakia, etc when they play. there was a good article in one of the broadsheets today on the topic of media coverage which I think made the point well - will try to find it.

As for going to Australia to watch it - I have no love of their team either so I probably would take great pleasure in watching them lose if I was stuck over there during the World Cup.

Of course, in that case I would actually be in a foreign country and would have less right to complain. If I have to have another nation's coverage in my own homeland then I reserve the right to be quite happy when they inevitably get egg on their face.

Suggesting that Scots shouldn't watch the world cup or if they do should support England seems to be a bit dangerously close to telling Muslims they should fit in or leave the UK.

[ohms]

What a storm in a tea cup! There's long been a tradition amongst football fans of the home nations to poke fun at each other and take a little bit of delight in seeing the other teams slip up.

The only thing I find odd is the complaints that there is too much coverage of the England team when they are the only one of the home nations to qualify. Perhaps the other nations should have tried a little harder :p

[Architect]

Like the avatar, ohms, but in your shoes would have gone with SNP..



.....Scotland Not Playing.

[Ashles]

So, for example, I didn't hear Tyldsley dismissing the US national anthem and saying 'let's listen to THE national anthem' before the England game on Saturday night then?

Is that actually your best example? That the exact moment we hear our National Anthem before our first game in the world cup the English commentators covering the English match might have expressed a patriotic inflection in a sentence?

Now who is going out of their way to be offended?

Of course I could simply repond with the "It's just a joke", "Get over it", "Get a sense of humour", "It's NMFP" type comments that litter this thread.
But would you find that helpful?

Just one example among many. That's before I even get into the associated coverage of people like James Corden.

Which I have managed to not watch at all as he annoys me a bit. Seriously, if you know something's going to annoy you, don't watch it.

I've watched pretty much every minute of the World Cup coverages and its been overly jingoistic and pretty much dismissive of every country except England.

No it really hasn't. I seriously don't know how you can be interpreting the coverage through such a warped filter. this is just simply untrue. The commentators have praised several of the teams and criticised many of the better quality teams who have underperformed. They also weren't complimentary about England's performance which nobody would imply was anything but fairly poor.

Of course its all imagined because according to some posters here non-English people shouldn't be watching World Cup coverage on TV!

No, it has just been suggested that maybe the posters who have repeatedly expressed desire to not encounter the World Cup coverage should... not watch the World Cup coverage. But they are claiming it is somehow impossible to turn on and watch TV without watching pro-English football coverage, which is of course ludicrous.

[funk de fino]

If any of the Celtic nations had qualified for the World Cup finals, you might have a point. But you didn't. Get over it.

We are not the ones blubbing like bairns over a joke.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Is that actually your best example? That the exact moment we hear our National Anthem before our first game in the world cup the English commentators covering the English match might have expressed a patriotic inflection in a sentence?

Now who is going out of their way to be offended?

Of course I could simply repond with the "It's just a joke", "Get over it", "Get a sense of humour", "It's NMFP" type comments that litter this thread.
But would you find that helpful?

Which I have managed to not watch at all as he annoys me a bit. Seriously, if you know something's going to annoy you, don't watch it.

No it really hasn't. I seriously don't know how you can be interpreting the coverage through such a warped filter. this is just simply untrue. The commentators have praised several of the teams and criticised many of the better quality teams who have underperformed. They also weren't complimentary about England's performance which nobody would imply was anything but fairly poor.

No, it has just been suggested that maybe the posters who have repeatedly expressed desire to not encounter the World Cup coverage should... not watch the World Cup coverage. But they are claiming it is somehow impossible to turn on and watch TV without watching pro-English football coverage, which is of course ludicrous.

Tyldsley example was one of many. Many of them actually relating to him. Before the game there was a puff-piece from Chiles with him faffing about with a baseball bat and a Big Mac - that was a 'joke' (not very funny one) and light hearted. A lot of the stuff Corden comes out with is similar. It certainly doesn't offend me I just find him irritating and tend not to watch. I also find it amusing when his team get a bad result.

Personally, I think the easiest way out of this is for Scotland to have its own coverage and let England do whatever they want. The English media seem to forget that there is a portion of their audience who actually don't care about England to the exclusion of all others.

I interpret the coverage through such a 'warped filter' because I'm not English and I'm conscious of the fact that the commentators speak to me as if I was. I can imagine that most of England would be unhappy about the coverage if they had to watch a feed coming from France, but they don't. The Celtic nations seem to be unique among the world (maybe excluding North Korea?) of having to watch the World Cup through the eyes of a foreign country.

The commentators spent 66 seconds discussing Slovenia v Algeria before cutting to (non) news about England. The commentators are ignorant about pretty much every player who doesn't either play in the EPL or face English opposition in the Champions League. They utter throwaway lines that dismiss every other country except England (and maybe Brazil and a couple of others they deem worthy peers) and after all this their team goes out and fails to beat the USA!

If you don't experience some schadenfraude watching England lose after that then you must be English.

[funk de fino]

I don't remember what the coverage was like for the 1998 World Cup, but I do remember watching the qualifiers for this year's event and the last European Cup in the pub. I remember everyone in there getting behind Scotland too. The English support Scotland against any team other than our own, but maybe this will change next time around.

Thats strange because I was in England for a major championship. Near Wolverhampton. Scotland - Morroco. Guess who the locals were cheering?

I watched the whole pub sing "cheerio cheerio" to the Scottish players on the bus. You are full of it if you think all the English support Scotland. I did however take the banter in the manner it was given. Shame some here cannot.

The very fact the idiot police tried to make it something it wasnt blew this out of all proportion. It wouldnt hve mde the paper otherwise.

[Ashles]

If you don't experience some schadenfraude watching England lose after that then you must be English.

I'm not talking about simple schadenfraude on watching England draw or lose as, to be honest, they deserved no better than a draw and posibly even a loss after that poor performance. I wouldn't blame anyone for having a laugh at that in the same way many fans of different countries probably also enjoyed Italy, France and Portugal's underwhelming first matches.
That's not the issue as I see it. The sentiment I am referring to has nothing to do with football at all.

But I'll just be repeating myself from earlier posts so if you want to see what I think reread those and if you still disagree, fair enough but I don't see the point in repeating what I have already posted.

[Ashles]

I watched the whole pub sing "cheerio cheerio" to the Scottish players on the bus. You are full of it if you think all the English support Scotland. I did however take the banter in the manner it was given. Shame some here cannot.

Banter is fine. Schadenfraude is fine.

It's when it is somthing more distasteful that it becomes unacceptable.

At one point it would have been hard to know whether someone sporting a St George flag on their car was patriotic, an England supporter or a racist.

But we'll simply have to disagree over interpretation of where that line is in some people's adoption of ABE.

You appear to think every person supporting ABE (by whatever method) is making a purely anti English football statement.
I disagree.

This thread could run for 100 pages but I doubt the debate will proceed much beyond that stement of views.

[Architect]

No it really hasn't. I seriously don't know how you can be interpreting the coverage through such a warped filter. this is just simply untrue. The commentators have praised several of the teams and criticised many of the better quality teams who have underperformed. They also weren't complimentary about England's performance which nobody would imply was anything but fairly poor.


I'm sorry, but a quick trip to iPlayer will show that to be simply innacurate.

[Ashles]

I'm sorry, but a quick trip to iPlayer will show that to be simply innacurate.

Inaccurate in what way? I watched the match - the overwhelming view of all the pundits was that this was not a great England performance, the passing was sloppy and we need to do much better.

(And I can't see iPlayer, I'm at work)

[Architect]

You didn't listen Chris Moyles this morning? You missed Chiles on the telly? You didn't have Radio 1 on about an hour ago? You've missed (say) the Sun advert?

I mean really, almost every game with pundits has analysis at least coloured by Engerland-goggles never mind downright references time and time again to how this particular results affects said team.

It's like a Brian Moore rugby commentary all over again (hint: Brian is no longer broadcasted in the Celtic nations during the 6 nations because of the level of complaints regarding partisan commentary).