Swearing

[mummymonkey]

Why are some people offended by words? Not how the word is used, but just the word itself. It's often said that people who swear have a limited vocabulary; that's bollocks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3460123.stm

In the era of foul-mouthed "gangsta" rap and casual bad language in Hollywood films - has swearing lost its power to shock?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Swearing is typically used to add emphasis to a statement without adding any actual substance. There are plenty of other words for most situations that convey the desired emphasis while contributing additional meaning.

I think that if you need to use swear words to give your statements extra weight and emotion, then maybe the content of what you are saying is not really all that strong.

For example, any use of the "F" word as an adjective is pointless. It should only be used as a verb or, more rarely, as a noun. In these forms the words have actual merit.

I mostly object to swearing from a grammatical perspective. It does not offend me, but it certainly makes me question the intelligence of the speaker.

Then again, stubbing one's toe is always cause for a slew of empty adjectives ...

[LFTKBS]

Merf merf merf. Oh no, we mustn't use curse words because they're bad! Ooh! The magical power of hearing the word "f*ck" compels me to sacrifice children to Satan!

Or: "People who swear have small . . . brain lists . . . of words . . . they make from . . . facehole."

Please. As long as we're doing the anecdote thing, let me point out that there are people who don't "curse" who have very tiny and unimpressive vocabularies and general disregard for the English language, and that there are those who do "curse" who also have verbal skills for which to die.

Look: I'm more than happy to comply with the JREF's rules in re: "inappropriate" language on the forum, but I certainly don't think that the relative frequency of curses-v.-non-curses has anything to do with one's intelligence.

F*cking wankers.

[Hexxenhammer]

You need only look as far as "Full Metal Jacket" to see that swearing can be used as truly creative language.

A friend of mine managed to use the "foulest of foul words" as every part of a grammatically correct sentence once. That was creative.

[Hand Bent Spoon]

Of course cussing isn't designed to add any intellectual content to a sentance. Its designed purpose is injecting strong emotion into a sentance, something non-cuss-words are hard pressed to do.

"And anyone who doesn't like cussing is an uptight pussy who needs to buy a f**king clue," for example. ;)

[Jeff Corey]

George Carlin said it best, whatever it was...

Oh, yeah, "Disney can get away with a cartoon character saying, 'Let's snatch that pussy and stuff her into a box!'"

Or was it Lenny Bruce? "So this blah blah blah says blah blach blah."

[sackett]

Foxing censors is fun and seldom difficult. The silly fackers are usually low-level appointees wearing cheap suits. It sharpens your wits to evade their dim-bulb rules and slip in naughty words like schidt and furt and piff and fugg and -- shall I go on?

[epepke]

It dates to the Norman Conquest back in 1066. All the Saxon words became bad because the Saxons lost and were enslaved. French words=good; Saxon words=bad. It's as simple as that. The Saxon terms became, quite literally, vulgar. (Latin: of the people, as opposed to the ruling class.) So, while I can easily write the words with French roots such as defecate, urinate, copulate, etc. without fear of reprisal, should I use the entirely synonymous Saxon equivalents, that would not be permitted and even would, by a fit of illiteracy on the part of the JREF moderators, be considered "obscene."

What bothers me is that, almost seven hundred years after the end of French feudalism and the establishment of English common law which led to the two longest-lived representative democracies on the planet, English-speakers still have enough of what amounts to a we're-not-French-enough inferiority complex to consider Saxon words bad.

It isn't even limited to so-called cuss words. "Pork," for some reason, is more acceptable than "swine flesh" or "pig flesh" and nobody even remembers "kine" for cattle, though "cow" survives. But, of course, the lower classes were the ones who tended the animals, so the old Saxon terms survived to described the animals, while their flesh (excuse me, meat) got the French terms when served up as haute cuisine.

Seriously. Four hundred years of slavery, and almost seven hundred years after it, Anglos still symbolically abase themselves in deference to their former masters. It must have been some pretty effective slavery. Even African-Americans do better than Anglos in this regard.

[Schizobunny]

Personally I believe people should limit their use of curse words, but they are just words and they are not hurting anyone so I don't see the big deal.

[Cecil]

Originally posted by Schizobunny
Personally I believe people should limit their use of curse words, but they are just words and they are not hurting anyone so I don't see the big deal. I agree. I'm not offended by them in the least, but I still have difficulty saying them out loud in the presence of others (though I have the mouth of a sailor in private :D).

Despite the irrationality of it, some people are quite offended by cursing, so I think we should try to respect that and try to avoid using it in public.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by epepke
It dates to the Norman Conquest back in 1066. All the Saxon words became bad because the Saxons lost and were enslaved. French words=good; Saxon words=bad. It's as simple as that. The Saxon terms became, quite literally, vulgar. (Latin: of the people, as opposed to the ruling class.) So, while I can easily write the words with French roots such as defecate, urinate, copulate, etc. without fear of reprisal, should I use the entirely synonymous Saxon equivalents, that would not be permitted and even would, by a fit of illiteracy on the part of the JREF moderators, be considered "obscene."

What bothers me is that, almost seven hundred years after the end of French feudalism and the establishment of English common law which led to the two longest-lived representative democracies on the planet, English-speakers still have enough of what amounts to a we're-not-French-enough inferiority complex to consider Saxon words bad.

It isn't even limited to so-called cuss words. "Pork," for some reason, is more acceptable than "swine flesh" or "pig flesh" and nobody even remembers "kine" for cattle, though "cow" survives. But, of course, the lower classes were the ones who tended the animals, so the old Saxon terms survived to described the animals, while their flesh (excuse me, meat) got the French terms when served up as haute cuisine.

Seriously. Four hundred years of slavery, and almost seven hundred years after it, Anglos still symbolically abase themselves in deference to their former masters. It must have been some pretty effective slavery. Even African-Americans do better than Anglos in this regard.
You don't frighten us, you silly English pigdog. Go boil your bottom. Your mother was a hampster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Je m'en feut.

[Pyrrho]

I'm not offended by cursing; I'm just tired of hearing it.

[Kilted_Canuck]

For years and years, everyone thought I was a prude because I didn't swear...at all (for all they knew). Then, last year I learned the joys of letting a good swear out. I was repressing myself and expending too much energy on finding proper words to express how I felt.

Those of us that know when to use a swear are fine, its just the people that say it all the ****** time, public, in front of children, in front of seniors; they're the ones that need to build a better vocabulary.

[scarlet_35]

I don't like to hear kids swearing, it makes them look immature, not cool.

but when I hear my mom use the F word, something she never did when I was growing up...well it just makes me soo proud :D

(ok maybe not proud, but its soo funny to see mom using the F word when she gets angry, its good to let it out once in awhile, it just feels good)

[wildflower1]

What astounds me are those like my deeply religious acquaintances who want to ban not only the generally accepted 'bad' words, but also those that are used to substitute for such words - for example, darn, heck, frickin'. (As Dave Barry writes, I Am Not Making This Up.)

There are parents who chastise their children who use the 'H' word - 'hate.' While it would be a fine world if hate were eliminated, suppressing the word alone (and denying the existence of the raw intense emotions of a child) hardly seems an effective path to significant change (although maybe these parents are simply saying, "You think that you hate NOW, kid - just wait'll you get to be MY age!") .

Some words still do have shock value, and these can become valuable weapons or, conversely, communications bridges among those who have become personally inured to their impact.

[epepke]

Originally posted by wildflower1
What astounds me are those like my deeply religious acquaintances who want to ban not only the generally accepted 'bad' words, but also those that are used to substitute for such words - for example, darn, heck, frickin'. (As Dave Barry writes, I Am Not Making This Up.)

I'm pretty sure that I'll get flak for this, but "dam" is the original source of "I don't give a dam." As for fricking, the term is often used to refer to female masturbation, which makes it eminently suitible as a term of dismissal.

[scarlet_35]

my sister-in-law who is very religious must have told her children that saying stupid was evil and bad. My kids use that word on occasion towards each other (there are far worse things they can say so they don't really get punished for it, I just usually say "well you know your not stupid so don't sweat the small stuff" and they're cool with it)

but anyhow, one time my lil guy called his older sister stupid when his cousin was around, his cousin told him, he's going to hell for saying that. I dunno maybe its me but I think a 6 year old telling a 4 year old he's going to hell is worse then him calling his sister stupid.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by scarlet_35
... I dunno maybe its me but I think a 6 year old telling a 4 year old he's going to hell is worse then him calling his sister stupid. Damn right.

[jimlintott]

I don't swear. I affirm.

[hawkins_anderson]

Deals with concepts of respect. There's a time and a place for everything.

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Why are some people offended by words? Not how the word is used, but just the word itself. It's often said that people who swear have a limited vocabulary; that's bollocks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3460123.stm



Ever notice how swear words deal with biology in one way or another (excluding "dam" which I don't consider to be a swear word)? Perhaps that's why some may feel that swearing is unimaginative, to say the least.

One function of swearing is to insult. Perhaps it is time to invent better swear words! One comedian tried this, but only went as far as coming up with words that sounded like cuss words (like "muselage"). Using words that refer to human biology to insult only goes so far. Perhaps words that refer to the supposed feckless nature of the person being insulted can be more effective than simple reference to biology.

[TheBoyPaj]

The example which caused the original news story was one of the funniest things I have seen on TV this year. I expect that John knew exactly what he was doing, probably had a good idea that the show was not being broadcast with delay, and sought to take advantage of the programme makers' error.

I agree that people who swear in every sentence are simply tiresome, but a well-placed word can do wonders.

[Monketey Ghost]

I recently had an argument with someone about this very subject.
He'd objected to my use of the f-word in a sentence, claiming that since I had a strong vocabulary I shouldn't need to swear, and that I ought to use "acceptable" words.

"Why should I have to use another word, when f*** does the job I want it to so well? See, if I want to add emphasis to what I'm saying, there's a perfect word for doing so. You've heard the word, you know what it means. That's true for everyone in this room. It's a well-known word, in the English language. Simply because you don't like that word, I should alter the way I express myself? Here's something I think is far easier: stop being so touchy and offendable."

"Acceptable" words... *grunts, annoyed by the concept*

[Soapy Sam]

"Dam" is not a swear word.
"Damn" is.
Personally, I usually say "Dam".

(And occasionally, for emphasis, "Damme!")

[epepke]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse


Ever notice how swear words deal with biology in one way or another (excluding "dam" which I don't consider to be a swear word)? Perhaps that's why some may feel that swearing is unimaginative, to say the least.

"Defecate," "fornicate," "excrete," "feces," "smegma," etc. all deal with "biology" in the same sense, yet they are not considered swear words.

Swear words tend to be profane, scatological, or sexual, but that is not a sufficient condition.

"Jesus darned my socks" is profane, but it is not considered a swear.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by scarlet_35
I don't like to hear kids swearing, it makes them look immature, not cool.

Scarlet would probably have smacked me if she was around when I was a kid...

[MLynn]

Originally posted by Kilted_Canuck
For years and years, everyone thought I was a prude because I didn't swear...at all (for all they knew). Then, last year I learned the joys of letting a good swear out. I was repressing myself and expending too much energy on finding proper words to express how I felt.

Those of us that know when to use a swear are fine, its just the people that say it all the ****** time, public, in front of children, in front of seniors; they're the ones that need to build a better vocabulary.

Dear Kilted, you said it best -

[HarryKeogh]

still trying to figure out why you can say crap on tv (or this forum) but not $h!t.

just two 4 letter bits of slang.

I curse like a bastard but much less around ladies (and never around mom)

and as for one's level of intelligence and use of cursing being linked? no way, i'm reel smart-like.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
still trying to figure out why you can say crap on tv (or this forum) but not $h!t.

In my opinion the twisted logic of your TV censorship is beyond reason.

Last time I was in the states I tuned into a cable TV channel which was showing Robocop at 3 in the afternoon. They showed all the scenes of ED209 pumping bullets into that OCP executive, blood spurting everywhere, without a single cut.

Then they went and dubbed the word "*******" into "airhead".

Freaking melonfarmers.

[tim]

Originally posted by Schizobunny
Personally I believe people should limit their use of curse words, but they are just words and they are not hurting anyone so I don't see the big deal.

We have a reason for asking people not to swear on the forum. If too much of that gets by we are going to end up getting banned from schools and libraries. Not good for an educational foundation!

[epepke]

Originally posted by tim
We have a reason for asking people not to swear on the forum. If too much of that gets by we are going to end up getting banned from schools and libraries. Not good for an educational foundation!

Fair enough, but I wish "you" (they?) would stop calling such words obscene when they are merely indecent.

Flagrant official illiteracy isn't so hot from an educational foundation, either.

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by epepke


Fair enough, but I wish "you" (they?) would stop calling such words obscene when they are merely indecent.

Flagrant official illiteracy isn't so hot from an educational foundation, either.

Perhaps, but ask the schools and libraries which they would prefer.

[epepke]

Originally posted by sorgoth
Perhaps, but ask the schools and libraries which they would prefer.

I have a high regard for librarians and teachers (but not educators) and know many of them. Besides, I'm a certified teacher, and my girlfriend graduated in library science. I think they would mostly prefer the term "indecent" over "obscene" with respect to the words in question.

Do you think otherwise?

[tim]

Originally posted by epepke


I have a high regard for librarians and teachers (but not educators) and know many of them. Besides, I'm a certified teacher, and my girlfriend graduated in library science. I think they would mostly prefer the term "indecent" over "obscene" with respect to the words in question.

Do you think otherwise?

To be honest, I don't really care that much what you want to call it, epepke. I DO care if JREF gets banned from schools and libraries. From a pragmatic standpoint I therefore support the ban on those words, whatever you want to call them.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Why are some people offended by words? Not how the word is used, but just the word itself. It's often said that people who swear have a limited vocabulary; that's bollocks.


OK I've read down the thread before answering.

"Bollocks" doesn't offend me because I am an American, and that's just you Brits being quaint. :p

But in general, while my reaction does not rise to the level of moral outrage, and I occasionally use such words myself, I am irritated by cussing.

What the f**k is the f**king point of using a f**king word to the f**king point that it f**king means f**king nothing but that a f**king noun or verb or adjective is about to be f**king said?

And I would definitely be offended if called a c*cks**ker, because that happens to be an insulting word, not because I think c*cks**king is a bad thing.

It may not be logically defensible, but it is a fact.

[epepke]

Originally posted by tim
To be honest, I don't really care that much what you want to call it, epepke. I DO care if JREF gets banned from schools and libraries. From a pragmatic standpoint I therefore support the ban on those words, whatever you want to call them.

Well, I care, because there is a legal difference between obscene and indecent speech. Obscene speech, by judicial precedent, is not protected by the First Amendment.

The difference between "obscene" and "indecent" is the difference between watching FBI agents legally remove all copies of Catcher in the Rye and almost everything since then from public libraries and burn them, and not.

In my experience, librarians are aware of this. Furthermore, they are quite aware that the banning of JREF may have to be done on the basis of laws that they personally consider unconstitutional, and they don't like it.

I fully believe you when you say that you don't care. I would go further to say that you have the privilege of living in a society where people do care which gives you the right not to care.

In any event, although I have made satirical comments about it, I am not a detractor of JREF's policy. They have to play the same game as the libraries do.

I am a detractor of the way in which it is expressed officially. It seems to me a slap in the face, with skeptical imprimateur, to all of those who have fought for the First Amendment since Bowdler and Comstock. A hell of a lot of money and effort has been spent over more than a century distinguishing "indecent" from "obscene," and I have great respect for those efforts, even if you don't.

I do not know if you are able to grasp this distinction, but I have expressed it to the best of my ability.

[Edited to add "and not"]

[Schizobunny]

Originally posted by tim


To be honest, I don't really care that much what you want to call it, epepke. I DO care if JREF gets banned from schools and libraries. From a pragmatic standpoint I therefore support the ban on those words, whatever you want to call them.

JREF is already banned from my school, because it talks about alternative religions and it has a message board. I know this because I tried to go this website after school, but I kept getting this thing saying I was not allowed to because of the aforementioned reasons.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Schizobunny


JREF is already banned from my school, because it talks about alternative religions and it has a message board. I know this because I tried to go this website after school, but I kept getting this thing saying I was not allowed to because of the aforementioned reasons.

If you go to Our Lady of Perpetual Borderline Personality Disorder or some other Christian school, never mind.

But if not, can you access websites that talk about "non-alternative" religions, or websites that do have message boards? Do you have a school newspaper, or even a local newspaper? Smells like a story to me.

I'm still ticked off about when I was in school and we were forced to endure countless showing of Erich Von Danieken's Propellor Beanies of the Gods or whatever the hell it was called, and the time when there was a class trip to go see a Pet Psychic. We didn't have JREF in those days. (Wrapping my tongue around my teeth: "We had to make our own fun. We played video games.) But you do.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
Swearing is typically used to add emphasis to a statement without adding any actual substance. There are plenty of other words for most situations that convey the desired emphasis while contributing additional meaning.

I think that if you need to use swear words to give your statements extra weight and emotion, then maybe the content of what you are saying is not really all that strong.

For example, any use of the "F" word as an adjective is pointless. It should only be used as a verb or, more rarely, as a noun. In these forms the words have actual merit.
I have to disagree. The "F' word can, in some situations, give more emphasis than any other word.

Short example: My father in law swears extremely rarely - almost never. When I was getting married to his only daughter, my two best friends were late to the rehearsal. At the rehearsal party, he pulled them aside and told them "Tomorrow, be f****** on time" in a calm low voice. They were both in their tuxedos and ready to go 2 hours before the wedding.

[Donnie]

Words are used to convey meaning.

In the spoken word we have tone of voice, and in face to face conversations we have facial expressions and body language to add extra meaning to the words.

In the case of many swear or cuse words, some people learn to use them in every day language as spacers to give them time to think whilst talking continuously. In place of 'You know, uhhh', or 'Know what I mean', or 'Know what I'm saying', sometimes you get 'Fukcing, uhh, Fukcing'. This differs by region and country of course.

Curse or swear word are words that, in general, we have been taught to respect as somewhat sacred, that have special or additional meaning. This is all learned behaviour or emotional attachment to words. If a word that is supposed to have special meaning was used day indaily by certain groups, like jehova for example, then it would lose that emotional attachment that was special because we would become used to it's ordinary reality, that it is just a word.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Why are some people offended by words? Not how the word is used, but just the word itself. It's often said that people who swear have a limited vocabulary; that's bollocks.


It really is about words not meanings.

Does saying "Goddamn that f**king sh*t" mean that one is calling upon the creator of the universe to condemn to eternal torment the immortal soul of excrement which engages in sexual intercourse?

Of course not. It means "I hate those outrageous lies", only stronger. Perhaps it is the intensity that offends.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


It really is about words not meanings.

Does saying "Goddamn that f**king sh*t" mean that one is calling upon the creator of the universe to condemn to eternal torment the immortal soul of excrement which engages in sexual intercourse?

Of course not. It means "I hate those outrageous lies", only stronger. Perhaps it is the intensity that offends.

Clearly you're right.

"May the creator of the universe condemn to eterninal torment the soul of sexually active excrement" (I shortened it a bit) isn't going to be edited in this forum. So that's obviously not why it's offensive, let alone (cough cough) "obscene."

I don't think that it's about intensity either. Consider the following. "If a squamous, scrofulous, pustule such as yourself could possibly resist your onanistic impulses long enough to divert some glucose to the shriveled peanut-sized ganglion that you laughingly call a 'brain'..." is several orders of magnitude more intense than anything I could say with sexual, scatological, or profane oaths.

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

snip
What the f**k is the f**king point of using a f**king word to the f**king point that it f**king means f**king nothing but that a f**king noun or verb or adjective is about to be f**king said?
snip
Having previously worked on college campuses for 11+ years, I can tell you that this is exactly what you hear these days when you walk across a campus. The words, themselves, don't bother me. But I am kind of amazed at how free these young adults feel to express themselves this way in public, no matter who is present to hear them. Myself, I tend to refrain in public so as not to offend anyone. I guess it's one of this generation's modes of rebellion. And perhaps it also means that our nation is becoming (or will soon become) less affected by these words.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by Wyvern
And perhaps it also means that our nation is becoming (or will soon become) less affected by these words. We'll need some new cuss words then.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Donnie
Curse or swear word are words that, in general, we have been taught to respect as somewhat sacred, that have special or additional meaning. This is all learned behaviour or emotional attachment to words. If a word that is supposed to have special meaning was used day indaily by certain groups, like jehova for example, then it would lose that emotional attachment that was special because we would become used to it's ordinary reality, that it is just a word.

I don't believe this for a nanosecond. "Urinate" is not a swear word, nor is "fornicate," nor "excrement." Yet the Saxon equivalents that mean exactly the same thing are swear words.

[Donnie]

Originally posted by epepke


I don't believe this for a nanosecond. "Urinate" is not a swear word, nor is "fornicate," nor "excrement." Yet the Saxon equivalents that mean exactly the same thing are swear words.

Yes, and we currently have swear words that convey similar things to the words in your example that are becoming more and more accepted as inoffensive expressions due to their daily use...

[epepke]

Originally posted by Donnie
Yes, and we currently have swear words that convey similar things to the words in your example that are becoming more and more accepted as inoffensive expressions due to their daily use...

How often do you hear people in "daily use" using "fornicate"? If anything, it's a more rarefied term than its four-letter equivalent. If anything, it's more "sacred" as I usually only hear fundamentalist Christians use it.

While there is a process according to which a more commonly used word becomes more acceptable, this process does not explain the stigma attached to the canonical four-letter sexual and scatological oaths. Before the Norman Conquest, these were common words, and it was that event which gave them their stigma.

[allanb]

Originally posted by Thanz

I have to disagree. The "F' word can, in some situations, give more emphasis than any other word. Right, and your anecdote makes a good point: the effect of the word depends a lot on how often it's used. If you use it a couple of times in every sentence (and there are such people) it means nothing. If people know you as someone who doesn't use it, and then one day you do, they will sit up and take notice.

I suspect that everyone needs to have in his vocabulary a few words that express strong feelings at the risk of shocking other people, and that these words can be different for different people and can vary from one generation to another.

My son, when very young, asked me whether it was OK to sat "f***". I said something like "I don't care too much, but there are a lot of people who really don't like it, so it's better if you don't." He said, "Well, can I make up a word for when I get angry?" I said that was a good idea, and he thought for a while and said: "How about fubluck?"

I assume that fubluck is not a banned word in this forum; if it is, I will be fublucking annoyed.

[Gregory]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Having previously worked on college campuses for 11+ years, I can tell you that this is exactly what you hear these days when you walk across a campus.

As a college student, I can tell you it is not. Or maybe my college is just more restrained than yours.

[Fluffy]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
I'm not offended by cursing; I'm just tired of hearing it.
What he said.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by sorgoth


Originally posted by epepke


Fair enough, but I wish "you" (they?) would stop calling such words obscene when they are merely indecent.

Flagrant official illiteracy isn't so hot from an educational foundation, either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Perhaps, but ask the schools and libraries which they would prefer.

Well yes, they prefer flagrant official illiteracy :con2:

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by tim


To be honest, I don't really care that much what you want to call it, epepke. I DO care if JREF gets banned from schools and libraries.

Why? :confused:

[BPScooter]

Just coincidentally, I ran across this forum topic right after reading H.L. Mencken's amusing, honest, tasteful and erudite treatment of profanity in his "The American Language." I recommend looking at your local public library to find or remind. I'm all for the old-fashioned and new swear words, just not anywhere near any place where I might offend or my children could absorb an interesting new model. Sort of like why I wear deodorant and don't smoke in a restaurant. Courtesy. Mencken comes off as pitying those who lack the gift or occasion to freely swear up a storm as needed. :book:

[tim]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Why? :confused:

Because, Ian, this forum is not a toy for your amusement, but has a serious educational purpose. That may mean nothing to you, but it does to me.

[BPScooter]

So in Mencken's vein of swearing freely, as needed, I'm not personally offended when someone like George Carlin or Penn & Teller get salty with the language. Penn does it well, but I'm pretty sure the full impact would be lost on a little kid. Not me! Matter of fact, I was happy and grateful when I saw the intro to P&T's intro to the Alternative Medicine episode of BS. When Penn launches into the body of the show with "Let's try some... BS" his delivery just cracked me up so much.

My hesitation is that in so doing, the force of the argument or evidence or logic is somehow overshadowed and it offers the easily offended a nice handy excuse to disengage. "Well, I don't care if he has a point, he uses bad language" is something that not only little old fogies say, but also young parents, I'm willing to bet.

This was well captured in a Vonnegut book, can't remember which one, but KV used nothing but "gosh darn" level words and explained it in very clear terms in the first pages of the book. Something like the force and power of the language is lost through overuse.

So let's keep our dirty language nice and dirty in context, and our clean language nice and clear. Best of both worlds. When you can handle both, then Penn, Teller, Carlin are ready for you!