Are You American, Or Anti-American?

[Mr Manifesto]

List of American Values (http://www.progress.org/2003/america1.htm)

So, do you agree with the "American values" listed here? I have to admit, I'm sort of sitting on the fence for this one. Upon what basis can we judge is someone is "American" or "anti-American"? It would be useful to come up with some rough guidelines, if only as a response to those who tirelessly accuse anyone who disagrees with the US government of the time of being 'anti-American'.

[EdipisReks]

i personally agree with the list. however, instead of calling those values "American Values", i would call them "Civilized Values". these things should apply to everyone, not just Americans.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
List of American Values (http://www.progress.org/2003/america1.htm)

So, do you agree with the "American values" listed here? I have to admit, I'm sort of sitting on the fence for this one. Upon what basis can we judge is someone is "American" or "anti-American"? It would be useful to come up with some rough guidelines, if only as a response to those who tirelessly accuse anyone who disagrees with the US government of the time of being 'anti-American'.


Despite the fact that the wording is biased , I agree with most of the "american values". What about you Mr. Manefesto, do you think you agree with the "american values"?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony



Despite the fact that the wording is biased , I agree with most of the "american values".

I guess this makes most of the Democratic candidates Anti-American, go figure.

[patnray]

It's a politically skewed list in which most of the choices are examples of false dichotomy.

[Zep]

Originally posted by patnray
It's a politically skewed list in which most of the choices are examples of false dichotomy. I agree - you could simply swap the headings to create "someone else's viewpoint".

[BTox]

Whomever made that list is obviously un-American. Of course, so is the boob who initiated this thread.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by patnray
It's a politically skewed list in which most of the choices are examples of false dichotomy.

I couldn't agree more. For instance:

"Supports freedom of speech throughout society."

vs.

"Is worried or made anxious by others' use of freedom of speech."

Is hardly a valid this-or-that comparison. The vast majority of Americans support free speech, but are often appalled by what others use that right for. It doesn't mean that anyone wants to repeal the first amendment. That also applies to all the fundamental rights in the Constitution.

It looks like a typical Mr. M strawman embellished with some rudimentary HTML, nothing more. Rights are always more fun when you're the one exercising them, but tolerating them (hopefully in a gracious manner) when others exercise those rights differently are what makes an American an American. Sorry it doesn't fit into the jingoistic paradigm, Mr. M, but since you're not American I don't see how it matters.

[Schizobunny]

"Believes in the sanctity of human life. Opposes government-sponsored killing programs such as war and capital punishment."

I agree with it except for the above statement. I am pro-capital punishment and I realize war is inevitable.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Schizobunny
"Believes in the sanctity of human life. Opposes government-sponsored killing programs such as war and capital punishment."

I agree with it except for the above statement. I am pro-capital punishment and I realize war is inevitable.

Funny how there was no mention of abortion in the sanctity of human life one...

[Jocko]

Originally posted by BTox


Funny how there was no mention of abortion in the sanctity of human life one...

That's because hardcore lefties only believe human life begins when someone is old enough to register as a democrat.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Jocko


That's because hardcore lefties only believe human life begins when someone is old enough to register as a democrat.

Wrong. It is because the same crowd that rabidly defends unborn life could not care less about the deaths of a couple of thousands of foreigners. Or criminals. Or whatever group of "them" you can imagine.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Chaos;
Wrong. It is because the same crowd that rabidly defends unborn life could not care less about the deaths of a couple of thousands of foreigners. Or criminals. Or whatever group of "them" you can imagine.

These "same crowd" being who exactly? The Catholic Church is decididly pro-life, yet I haven't noticed the Pope or my local bishop being gung ho about military interventions or capital punishment lately. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Jon_in_london]

American Characteristics: Believes that the best way to lead people is to understand and help them.


Anti-American Characteristics:
Believes that the best way to lead people is to be powerful.

Damn, all dem neo-cons be anti-'merican!!!

Maybe the author got these things the wrong way round?

[epepke]

To those who think this is skewed, turnabout is fair play. The term "un-American" has been widely thrown around, often with rather disastrous congressional imprimateur, since the end of World War II. As far as I can tell, "un-American" refers to anybody who exercizes and defends the rights granted by the Contitution. Which, of course, makes perfect sense, as the Constitution limits the powers of government, and government, like children, do not want to be limited. But the fact that government officials, after swearing to uphold the Constitution, then got to work trying to tear it down, even to the extent of calling their opponents "un-American," deserves fair comment.

[c0rbin]

These "same crowd" being who exactly? The Catholic Church is decididly pro-life, yet I haven't noticed the Pope or my local bishop being gung ho about military interventions or capital punishment lately. Quite the opposite in fact.

The CC has been on the down-low in that regard for a couple hundered years.

[Kodiak]

Sorry, Mr. Manifesto, but I don't subscribe to your list.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Chaos


Wrong. It is because the same crowd that rabidly defends unborn life could not care less about the deaths of a couple of thousands of foreigners. Or criminals. Or whatever group of "them" you can imagine.

So in other words - advocate execution of murderers, advocate military use of force to kill terrorists that have carried out attacks against U.S. civilians, defend the life of unborn children = bad. Advocate no capital punishment for murderers, advocate no military action against terrorists, allow killing of unborn children = good. OK... :rolleyes:

[BTox]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


These "same crowd" being who exactly? The Catholic Church is decididly pro-life, yet I haven't noticed the Pope or my local bishop being gung ho about military interventions or capital punishment lately. Quite the opposite in fact.

So you are saying the Catholic church in your area has been pro military intervention and capital punishment? That's certainly not the case here.

[pgwenthold]

The best ones in the list are the ones about criticizing the government. I am a firm believer that true patriotism requires us to always question the government's activities to ensure that they are doing the best things.

The government is accountable to the people. Unquestioning support is to me among the most un-american acts there can be.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by BTox:
So you are saying the Catholic church in your area has been pro military intervention and capital punishment? That's certainly not the case here.

Which was exactly my point. Not that it was always so. IIRC it's only the present pope that's been against capital punishment, all previous pontiffs have been for it. Holy Catholic Ireland was sentencing people to death as recently as 1985.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by BTox


So in other words - advocate execution of murderers, advocate military use of force to kill terrorists that have carried out attacks against U.S. civilians, defend the life of unborn children = bad. Advocate no capital punishment for murderers, advocate no military action against terrorists, allow killing of unborn children = good. OK... :rolleyes:

So you are saying that all the foreigners who were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq were terrorists?

Because that is what you imply when you tell me that "lack of concern for dead foreigners" equals "lack of concern for terrorists".

I think if we started counting honestly, we will find that for every person whom we know (or can be reasonably certain) is/was a terrorist that was killed or captured in the "War on Terror", there were probably dozens of dead foreign civilians. (And I won´t count Taliban militia or Iraqi soldiers, who are neither terrorists nor civilians)
We´ll even see that you have killed far more civilians than the terroists did.
THAT is what I mean by "could not care less about deaths of foreigners".

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Chaos:
I think if we started counting honestly, we will find that for every person whom we know (or can be reasonably certain) is/was a terrorist that was killed or captured in the "War on Terror", there were probably dozens of dead foreign civilians. (And I won´t count Taliban militia or Iraqi soldiers, who are neither terrorists nor civilians)
We´ll even see that you have killed far more civilians than the terroists did.
THAT is what I mean by "could not care less about deaths of foreigners".

I can't think of anyone who would claim military campaigns can be conducted without loss of civilian life, but I think it's a big jump to say that this entails complete indifference to the plight of civilians caught in a warzone. On the contrary, US military campaings are fought in such a way as to minimize civilian casualties.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Sorry, Mr. Manifesto, but I don't subscribe to your list.

"My list"? I didn't know I wrote it. Must be what I'm getting up to in my blackouts.

For the benefit of Kodiak, Jocko, and anyone else who seem to think I agree with the list, I don't. The phrase 'sitting on the fence' in my OP should have been a clue, but maybe I need to spell it out. I just wanted to open discussion on what is "American" and what is "anti-American".

Epepke has made one of the most interesting points so far: turnabout is fair play. Normally, those who would hold the value on the right side of the list would be calling those on the left side of the list 'un-American' as an ad-hom so they can get their way. This list merely turns the idea on its head.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


"My list"? I didn't know I wrote it. Must be what I'm getting up to in my blackouts.

For the benefit of Kodiak, Jocko, and anyone else who seem to think I agree with the list, I don't. The phrase 'sitting on the fence' in my OP should have been a clue, but maybe I need to spell it out. I just wanted to open discussion on what is "American" and what is "anti-American".

Epepke has made one of the most interesting points so far: turnabout is fair play. Normally, those who would hold the value on the right side of the list would be calling those on the left side of the list 'un-American' as an ad-hom so they can get their way. This list merely turns the idea on its head.

Cool you jets.

I meant "your list" as meaning "the list you provided in your opening post".

I also never said or implied that you agreed with the list.

My point was simply that what I consider an American to be or not to be, is not found on the list you provided a link to in your opening post that you don't necessarily agree with.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by epepke
To those who think this is skewed, turnabout is fair play. The term "un-American" has been widely thrown around, often with rather disastrous congressional imprimateur, since the end of World War II. As far as I can tell, "un-American" refers to anybody who exercizes and defends the rights granted by the Contitution. Which, of course, makes perfect sense, as the Constitution limits the powers of government, and government, like children, do not want to be limited. But the fact that government officials, after swearing to uphold the Constitution, then got to work trying to tear it down, even to the extent of calling their opponents "un-American," deserves fair comment.

Somehow a movie was once made concerning this (http://www.geocities.com/emruf/mc.html)...