Is it possible to force yourself to believe something?

[CplFerro]

I've never, since I started thinking about it, understood the concept that one can choose to believe. Either belief is there or it isn't; the process of conversion from unbelief to belief, or from belief to unbelief, is automatic and founded on the evidence for the belief in question, or else the emotional insistence masquerading as evidence. But, where in there is room for a person to scrunch up their brows, ball their fists, and will themselves to believe something they haven't already been convinced of?

Can anyone say different? Have YOU willed yourself to believe or disbelieve in something?

[paximperium]

If you tell yourself a lie long enough and have such a significant investment in it(monetary, emotional etc.), it is possible to slowly delude yourself into believing.

I think this is true for personality cults like John Smith, a documented fraud, who started Mormonism and ended dying for his "cause" after years of persecution and forcefully being attacked. He may have believed that his golden plates and his made up story to be real after decades on repeating it.

The same can be said for anyone who is desperate for anything.
The need for money breeds those who follow the Direct Selling Cults.
The need for a cure leads to cancer patients who continue to use "alternative" nonsense because they cannot face their wasted chances and impending death.
All of these involve believing without thinking.

I believe it is impossible to will yourself to believe.

[Tricky]

Will yourself? You can't force yourself to believe something you don't believe. You can, however, convince yourself that you were wrong. This is quite common, for example, after the loss of a loved one or if you yourself are facing death. At times like these, a comfortable fable is so very very enticing that you may be willing to forgo whatever reason and logic you possessed in order to have that wonderful wonderful relief in the illusion that reality isn't real.

It is my opinion that the main reason that religion is so popular is that people are so very afraid of death. There have been thousands of religions and millions of stories all told to escape this unpalatable obviousness. People who die don't return to us. Few people are willing to accept that. There must be something else. Right? Or else, when people die they are (gulp) dead forever. The fact that every piece of evidence points to just that must be overridden by something. Something magical. Some magical place. Some "other" kind of life. BECAUSE, DAMMIT I DON'T WANT TO DIE!!!:mad:

[I Am The Scum]

Not directly, no. Indirectly, you can close yourself off to opposing points of view on a matter.

[noreligion]

If you tell yourself a lie long enough and have such a significant investment in it(monetary, emotional etc.), it is possible to slowly delude yourself into believing.

I think this is true for personality cults like John Smith, a documented fraud, who started Mormonism and ended dying for his "cause" after years of persecution and forcefully being attacked. He may have believed that his golden plates and his made up story to be real after decades on repeating it.

The same can be said for anyone who is desperate for anything.
The need for money breeds those who follow the Direct Selling Cults.
The need for a cure leads to cancer patients who continue to use "alternative" nonsense because they cannot face their wasted chances and impending death.
All of these involve believing without thinking.

I believe it is impossible to will yourself to believe.

Name was Joseph Smith and he was shot to death while in jail because he tried to marry the wrong men's wives.

[paximperium]

Not directly, no. Indirectly, you can close yourself off to opposing points of view on a matter.
It is possible to retroactively delude yourself into revising memories of actual events. This is known to happen with traumatic events with rape or abuse.

I believe it is also possible to convince yourself of seeing something when it is not there in stressful situations. An example would be a soldier in Iraq sees a man with a walking stick and believes that the walking stick is a gun.

[paximperium]

Name was Joseph Smith and he was shot to death while in jail because he tried to marry the wrong men's wives.
Damn...I get all my Smiths mixed up.

[MG1962]

I've never, since I started thinking about it, understood the concept that one can choose to believe. Either belief is there or it isn't; the process of conversion from unbelief to belief, or from belief to unbelief, is automatic and founded on the evidence for the belief in question, or else the emotional insistence masquerading as evidence. But, where in there is room for a person to scrunch up their brows, ball their fists, and will themselves to believe something they haven't already been convinced of?

Can anyone say different? Have YOU willed yourself to believe or disbelieve in something?

I would suggest a pretty good chunk of the population of Democratic People's Republic of Korea would disagree with you

[Plasmadog]

I once wondered the same thing, so I set out to believe something I knew to be false. I think that what the answer is depends on how exactly you define belief, but based on my experience I feel that the answer is yes, you can make yourself believe something that you simultaneously disbelieve.
I first decided what I wanted to believe in. I deliberately chose something that had no direct bearing on my everyday life, so that I would not be constantly faced with opposing evidence. But I was also careful to choose something that was not completely disconnected with events in my life; believing this one thing would influence the way I interpreted certain events, but not in a way that was falsifiable. Very much like religion.
Then, over a period of 3-4 weeks, I got into the habit of simply asserting the truth of my chosen "fact" over and over again, like a mantra, during any spare moment I had. Very much like those self-affirmation mantras that people use to improve their confidence, etc.
By the time I stopped doing this, I found myself in a very mixed state of mind on this one topic. One the one hand, I still knew it to be untrue. On the other hand, my first reaction to certain events was to interpret them in the light of the false belief. It's a difficult thing to explain, but I did find that I could hold the contradictory thoughts in my head at the same time, and use both versions, for want of a better word, in decision making and so forth.
I'm really glad I did it. It has given me an insight that I think is very valuable, and I recommend it to everyone.

[CplFerro]

I would suggest a pretty good chunk of the population of Democratic People's Republic of Korea would disagree with you

What does being in a concentration camp, however large, have to do with what you believe?

[sadhatter]

I think belief is very similar to hard drugs ( cocain, meth, etc.)

Some people just stumble into it, or they are raised in an environment in which it is common so they kind of just roll with it.

While others have had specific incidents in their life that makes them vulnerable to it. While a choice may be motivated by things other than rationality, it is still a choice.

People tend to look for answers in the wrong places, and it is a lot easier to be comforted than it is to bite the bullet and face reality.

[Richard Masters]

<snip>

I think this is true for personality cults like John Joseph Smith, a documented fraud, who started Mormonism and ended dying for his "cause" after years of persecution and forcefully being attacked. He may have believed that his golden plates and his made up story to be real after decades on repeating it.

<snip>

While I agree that Joseph Smith was almost without a doubt a fraud, I'm curious as to the extent that this has been documented. Without derailing this thread, do you have any links to this evidence?

[Tricky]

Damn...I get all my Smiths mixed up.
Please don't do that if his last name is "& Wesson".

[Marduk]

What does being in a concentration camp, however large, have to do with what you believe?

If someone told you they would let you out of the camp and all you had to do is believe that Kim Dong Ill was a great leader, could you do it ?

if not, then you don't have a very good evolutionary survival rate. Humans force themselves to believe things which they have a personal vested interest in all the time:-
he/she'd be a loyal sexual partner, I can trust him/her with my life (and my bank balance), I don't need to check her/him for VD, that huge chocolate cake is just what I need, those pants would look good on me, I really need a faster car, I need this job promotion, I can't live without football etc
or the all time favourite
I really believe I will be with this woman til the day I die so I will take a vow in front of witnesses that proves it.

all patently false, all believed to be true
:p

[Marduk]

While I agree that Joseph Smith was almost without a doubt a fraud, I'm curious as to the extent that this has been documented. Without derailing this thread, do you have any links to this evidence?
start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham
end here
http://www.videovat.com/videos/11116/mormonism-explained-by-south-park.aspx
;)

you need to remember though that Mormonism is no more fake than any other current organised religion on this planet
:p

[MG1962]

What does being in a concentration camp, however large, have to do with what you believe?

You may want to have a read of the cult of personality the current leader has as well as his father

On another tack there are millions of people all over the world who think carrots improve night vision, despite the fact the RAF admits it made the myth up to cover the invention of radar and to explain the success rate of their night fighters during the battle of Britian

[CplFerro]

You may want to have a read of the cult of personality the current leader has as well as his father

On another tack there are millions of people all over the world who think carrots improve night vision, despite the fact the RAF admits it made the myth up to cover the invention of radar and to explain the success rate of their night fighters during the battle of Britian

But couldn't they all be faking it, and too frightened to talk to each other about the fact they don't really believe?