Americans or Israelis, Who is superior.

[The Fool]

I have had to wade through numerous posts lately that inform me or the inherent inferiority of Palestinian people. These posters don't just tell me this is thier opinion, they tell me it is fact. They are able to apply objective measurements and come up with a determination of the inherent superiority or inferiority of one people over another.

It appears that by overwelming weight of numbers that palestinians are viewed as the most backward bloodthirsty and savage people on earth.

This made me curious, if they are the worst, who is the best.....Who is the superior people...Americans or Israelis? If you are going to participate in this thread, try not to sound like a Nazi even though it may not be easy...
remember, the main factors to consider are Bloodthirstyness, savagery, "backwardness", how tough thier deity is and how many quotes from extremist individuals are available.

So go for it...Is the Israeli Jew superior to the American Christian? We already know they are both superior to the Arab Muslim but we've settled the quarter finals...who wins the trophy...who is the master race?

[zenith-nadir]

No race is superior to another.

But did you know in Lebanon Palestinians are not allowed to own land, and are denied medical, social or educational services from the Lebanese government because they are Palestinian?

Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9DC5B37F-A3FB-4781-9642-0126711DA4A7.htm)


Did you know in Syria Palestinians are denied citizenship because they are Palestinian?

arabicnews.com (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/991119/1999111907.html)


Did you know in Jordan Palestinians are denied citizenship because they are Palestinian?

arabicnews.com (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/031125/2003112504.html)


Did you know that after Arafat backed Saddam Hussein in the Kuwait Invasion Kuwait expelled 440,000 Palestinians because they were Palestinian?

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1361060.stm)



The palestinians, who are muslim and christian, are not inferior to jews, Christians, Catholics, Buddhists from any nation.

But one could assume that in Arab countries they are considered inferior.

[crackmonkey]

I've never read a post here that characterizes Palestinians in the light you describe, Fool. Is this thread perhaps a very long-winded strawman?

[schplurg]

So go for it...Is the Israeli Jew superior to the American Christian?

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?

[Cain]

Americans are the best.

-We're the hardest working.
-The most pious.
-The most generous.
-The smartest (by far).

How do I know? Because we're also the most envied, especially when it comes to sissy europeans and d!ckless Australians. God has historically sided with the USA. That's another fact.

The greatest country in the history of the world has to have the best people, right? (None of the above applies to "self-loathing" "well-off college students," or illegal immigrants, or legal Palestinian immigrants, or lazy black people.)

[crackmonkey]

A question, Cain. In your extensive footnote, you mock someone for saying that :
1) He doesn't believe that media conglomerates limit viewpoints

then

2) He fears media conglomerations.

He then elaborates that he hasn't had any difficulty finding alternative viewpoints despite media conglomeration, therefore his fear of conglomerates is not based on limitations on viewpoints. Why does this seem contradictory to you? Do you not believe that there are other reasons to fear conglomerates?

[Cain]

It's a signature, not a footnote. There's a link to the thread (which was recently) and I suggest you follow up there. Read the thread.

[crackmonkey]

I read it before I posted. Please point out any contradiction.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

American Atheists are superior to all others. :p

[Cain]

A question, Cain. In your extensive footnote, you mock someone for saying that :
1) He doesn't believe that media conglomerates limit viewpoints

then

2) He fears media conglomerations.

Why does he fear conglomeration? Because "it sounds very sinister"?


He then elaborates that he hasn't had any difficulty finding alternative viewpoints despite media conglomeration, therefore his fear of conglomerates is not based on limitations on viewpoints.

Which demonstrates his profound misunderstanding of the basic issues. Why does the NRA fear congolmeration? Is it difficult to find magazines, newsletters, and websites espousing the same line as the NRA? I don't think so.

The problem is that, if we live in a semi-democratic country, citizens are responsible for government policy. Maybe person X can discover the "true nature" of guns, but that doesn't help if everyone else sees an urgent need for government control. Chomsky's criticism of the media is intimately linked to his views on foreign policy.

The second problem is that the media creates a (narrow) system of beliefs. Views outside of a belief system can then easily be dismissed as implausible or even absurd (see for instance the thread mentioned above, specifically Corplinx's posts. It's one outburst of stupidity after another).

[The Fool]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
I've never read a post here that characterizes Palestinians in the light you describe, Fool. Is this thread perhaps a very long-winded strawman?
I'm not going to go dig all the garbage up again, people told me they got bored with me requoting peoples hate rants.... try searching on "savages", "backward" and "bloodthirsty" not hard to find....

so far it seems America is winning one vote to nill (thank you cain).

My personal vote goes to Israel. It was a close thing, what tipped the scales were the posts of Rikzilla...they are stupidity defined. So bad luck americans I am judging you all based on Riks efforts. My vote for master race goes to Israel and especially Israelis from Europe rather than the ones from America who are still partly to blame for Riks activities.

So its now neck and neck, one vote all.

[Skeptic]

I think this thread should be called "the mother of all strawmen arguments".

There is something utterly bizarre in someone who is so "considerate" and "sensitive" that he will ignore evidence that the Palestinians are doing this or that wrong, not because the evidence is faulty, but because merely posting such evidence is "racist' because it makes the Palestinians look bad and "backward".

It doesn't even occur to "The Fool" that, if there are so many quotes and proofs of Palestinian genocidal intentions vis-a-vis the jews, than the fault might lie with the Palestinian behavior and statements, not those who report them? It's not as if we're making this stuff up, after all.

I wonder what "The Fool" would have said in 1943, hearing for the first time the evidence for German gas chambers. Well, it makes the Germans look bad and evil, so "The Fool" would berate the bearer of bad news for being a racist and biased against Germans. After all, if he wasn't, why does he say such nasty things against them just because they're true?

(OK, I exaggerate. I keep forgetting that it's perfectly permissable to berate westerners for being bad, it's just "racism" if you criticize any other culture for anything at all. "The Fool" would probably protest the nazi atrocities... he just won't agree to hear a bad word from "racists" about anything the Japanese were doing in China or Burma.)

What matters ot the fool is not the facts, but that the conclusion would agree with his beliefs about the world. If it doesn't, it's "racism", and that's just that. Facts? Who cares. As Homer Simpson said, "you can prove anything that's even remotely true with facts!". That shouldn't be an excuse for being a racist, now should it?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
I've never read a post here that characterizes Palestinians in the light you describe, Fool. Is this thread perhaps a very long-winded strawman?

"Perhaps"?

[Skeptic]

I've never read a post here that characterizes Palestinians in the light you describe, Fool. Is this thread perhaps a very long-winded strawman?


I'm not going to go dig all the garbage up again,

What a surprise...

Oh, by the way, "The Fool", remember that post when you said I have three heads?

No?

Well, I'm not going to dig up that garbage up again just to provide EVIDENCE for my claim!

[NightG1]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I think this thread should be called "the mother of all strawmen arguments".

And this from the creator of the Why Don't People See (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34754) strawman. Pot Kettle Black Skeptic.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I think this thread should be called "the mother of all strawmen arguments".

There is something utterly bizarre in someone who is so "considerate" and "sensitive" that he will ignore evidence that the Palestinians are doing this or that wrong, not because the evidence is faulty, but because merely posting such evidence is "racist' because it makes the Palestinians look bad and "backward".

Fool's original post says, in part:


It appears that by overwelming weight of numbers that palestinians are viewed as the most backward bloodthirsty and savage people on earth.


Now, "Skeptic" appears to be saying that Fool's using a strawman because the Palestinians are the most backward, bloodthirsty, and savage people on Earth.

This must be some new definition of "strawman" I wasn't previously aware of. "Strawman" used to mean mischaracterizing an argument for the purpose of setting up a bogus argument that you can knock down easily; apparently now "strawman" means "characterizing an argument correctly, but in a negative fashion."

[peptoabysmal]

American is not a race, numbnutz. BTW, your avatar is offensive to Nazis. :D

[The Fool]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
American is not a race, numbnutz. BTW, your avatar is offensive to Nazis. :D
please see any of many previous rebutals of the "xxxx are not a race, numbnutz" excuses....

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
No race is superior to another.

But did you know in Lebanon Palestinians are not allowed to own land, and are denied medical, social or educational services from the Lebanese government because they are Palestinian?

Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9DC5B37F-A3FB-4781-9642-0126711DA4A7.htm)


Did you know in Syria Palestinians are denied citizenship because they are Palestinian?

arabicnews.com (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/991119/1999111907.html)


Did you know in Jordan Palestinians are denied citizenship because they are Palestinian?

arabicnews.com (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/031125/2003112504.html)


Did you know that after Arafat backed Saddam Hussein in the Kuwait Invasion Kuwait expelled 440,000 Palestinians because they were Palestinian?

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1361060.stm)



The palestinians, who are muslim and christian, are not inferior to jews, Christians, Catholics, Buddhists from any nation.

But one could assume that in Arab countries they are considered inferior.

You stopped the list quite early there. There are in fact numerous other nations on the planet who aren't in too much of a hurry to give too many Palestinians citizenship, either. It's not just Arab nations, but the whole world.

Fact is, just about everyone has abandoned them.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I think this thread should be called "the mother of all strawmen arguments".

Lol..... whats the strawman doofus? Am I making up the fact that you believe palestinians are backward bloodthirsty savages...have you changed your mind?


There is something utterly bizarre in someone who is so "considerate" and "sensitive" that he will ignore evidence that the Palestinians are doing this or that wrong, not because the evidence is faulty, but because merely posting such evidence is "racist' because it makes the Palestinians look bad and "backward".

I'll explain this again, I don't ignore any evidence...you don't have to convince me that terrorists are evil bloodthirsty people. You are preaching to the converted. Posting such evidence is also not racist, never have said it is...... What I do, and always will object to is your racist slandering of palestinians based on the actions of some palestinians. I don't call americans idiots because of you....It would not be fair.


It doesn't even occur to "The Fool" that, if there are so many quotes and proofs of Palestinian genocidal intentions vis-a-vis the jews, than the fault might lie with the Palestinian behavior and statements, not those who report them? It's not as if we're making this stuff up, after all.

and you have always ignored the quotes I give from zionists who want to commit ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the holy lands...do these quotes prove any more about Israelis than your quotes prove about palestinians?


I wonder what "The Fool" would have said in 1943, hearing for the first time the evidence for German gas chambers. Well, it makes the Germans look bad and evil, so "The Fool" would berate the bearer of bad news for being a racist and biased against Germans. After all, if he wasn't, why does he say such nasty things against them just because they're true?

That has got to be one of the stupidist misrepresentations I have ever seen....ummmmm, was that the nazis you are talking about or the germanic people? Do you still hold germans as a whole responsible for the holocaust? If not, why not... You hold palestinians as a whole responsible for the actions of terrorists, why not hold germans as a whole responsible for the holocaust.



(OK, I exaggerate. I keep forgetting that it's perfectly permissable to berate westerners for being bad, it's just "racism" if you criticize any other culture for anything at all. "The Fool" would probably protest the nazi atrocities... he just won't agree to hear a bad word from "racists" about anything the Japanese were doing in China or Burma.)

rubbish.


What matters ot the fool is not the facts, but that the conclusion would agree with his beliefs about the world. If it doesn't, it's "racism", and that's just that. Facts? Who cares. As Homer Simpson said, "you can prove anything that's even remotely true with facts!". That shouldn't be an excuse for being a racist, now should it?
what facts "skeptic"? what facts have you got to support the racist rants? Once again.....you are not just incapable of telling the difference between terrorists and the rest of the people of the same nationality...you can tell the difference as well as anyone. Yours is not a case of lack of understanding, it is deliberate and calculated lies and misrepresentation to further a campagn of racist hatred against those you see as your enemy....simple as that.


Now, back to the topic "skeptic" you are good at these dsort of decisions....who do you think is the superior culture, America or Israel?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I've never read a post here that characterizes Palestinians in the light you describe, Fool. Is this thread perhaps a very long-winded strawman?


I'm not going to go dig all the garbage up again,

What a surprise...

Oh, by the way, "The Fool", remember that post when you said I have three heads?

No?

Well, I'm not going to dig up that garbage up again just to provide EVIDENCE for my claim!

Not playing those silly games anymore... I got bored constantly re-quoting your racist statements and also bored waiting for people to site one example of what I get accused of. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are not refered to as backward, bloodthirsty savages by you and numerous others on this board? Are you considering trying to deny that? think people are blind?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleon
Fool's original post says, in part:


Yeah, well you miss the point because you’re looking at the wrong part. The Fool’s straw man is based on his inability to distinguish between cultural criticism and racism. He says:

Originally posted by The Fool
I have had to wade through numerous posts lately that inform me or the inherent inferiority of Palestinian people…

Nobody said there was anything inherent about it, it’s just that apparently The Fool believes that if someone says something bad about a culture, that by implication he must be saying the fault must go clear through to the genetic level.

Nonsense! My own North American culture has in the past embraced racism, slavery, sexism, child labor, wholesale slaughter of our native populations, medical experiments on minorities, religious fundamentalism and oppression, McCarthyism, and we have the distinction of being the only country to have nuked another.

Gosh, am I a racist for saying this? If I assert that it’s all factual, am I saying Americans are inherently inferior? Well, using The Fools logic, it must be one, the other, or both. I can’t figure it out, ask him.

A culture is defined by shared beliefs, attitudes, social behavior, goals, and practices that define a people. All of these things can be subject to value judgments (how else would we self-criticize and seek to improve?) The value judgment is not itself racist.

One could make an argument for “cultural relativism” where they would say that in order for me to make a value judgment on another’s culture I would have to judge them based on my own culture, but so what? If I see another culture that embraces a negative value such as racism, fascism, or murder I don’t see a problem with pointing it out. If a person from that other culture wants to criticize me for not sharing that value, that’s okay too. Frankly, if he wants to point out a legitimate flaw in my culture, I’ll be a lot more concerned with figuring out if he’s right or not than my own hurt feelings.

When people are being murdered, cultural sensitivity is just not the top priority. Preserving life is.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Nonsense! My own North American culture has in the past embraced racism, slavery, sexism, child labor, wholesale slaughter of our native populations, medical experiments on minorities, religious fundamentalism and oppression, McCarthyism, and we have the distinction of being the only country to have nuked another.

Gosh, am I a racist for saying this? If I assert that it’s all factual, am I saying Americans are inherently inferior?
Racist? Not sure....are you claiming americans are backward bloodthirsty or savages because of these events? I must admit that they do tend to make the efforts of the current crop of Palestinian terrorists look small....Are you trying to knock the palestinians off the "worst in the world" title?

Anyway whats your vote , American or Israeli...who is the superior culture?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I vote American!

[The Fool]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
I vote American!
well, no valid reason given, but thats never a problem....so, its 2 -1 America leads!

[demon]

Has to be Israel for me I`m afraid.

They, and their Zionist apologists everywhere have whole sections of the world believing the lie that the evil Palestinians are all sitting in their ramshackle homes, twirling their moustaches as they lay plans to chain every Jewish maiden to the railway tracks.

The way they have successfully played the Holocaust Industry/sympathy card for so long, escaped and ignored numerous UN Resolutions for so long with the aid of a truly staggering propaganda machine (and the US of course), swings it for me.

I wonder how many American taxpayers know just how much their country subsidizes that little terrorist state of Israel and that they don`t receive as much from the U.S. Treasury as has everyone who has chosen to become a citizen of Israel.
When the good people of the USA decide they won`t be duped in this way anymore, in spite the best efforts of the mainstream media and congress with their pact of silence, then my vote will happily go to America.

[Nikk]

In the "Aspiration not Desperation" thread Fool asked someone pretty much the same question when he said......

"Who, out of Americans and Israelis are superior? Who are the superior people? As you are an expert at judging racial superiority, it should be an easy question for you....Who is the master race? What about the british? do they come third? or are they superior to Israelis or Americans and squeak into second?"..........


So I think it's OK to cut and paste my reply which was...........

"Oh come on, it's no contest. The Israeli's have got theselves into a position where they have their backs to the sea and are surrounded by 200 million people who hate them. No superior culture could be so stupid.

The British are clearly a good bet because they created Australians but on the other hand the Americans are the most moral people on Earth as they are quite rightly shocked and horrified by a woman's breast. So it's the Yanks by a clear length."...............

[zenith-nadir]

When I read your posts Demon I always try to visualize what it must be like to live in your world of denial, misinformation and hate.

I would rather be dead than to exsist like that.


____________________________________________


Palestinians are discriminated harshly for who they are in Arab countries.

I proved that repeatedly in the second post of this thread.

Since 1969 the Palestinians have chosen the most infamous serial terrorist known in the 20th century to lead them.

Bad idea.

Arafat started a civil war in Jordan, in Lebanon and he backed Saddam Hussein in the Kuwaiti invasion.

Arafat also started a terrorist campaign against Isreal which officially started with a, (failed), attempt to blow up an Israeli water pumping station in January 1965.

Arafat has also stolen BILLIONS from the mouths of Palestinians to finance his criminal empire and terrorism.

Arafat's Billions - 60 Minutes - Nov. 9, 2003 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml)

Palestinian Authority funds go to terrorists - BBC - 7 November, 2003 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3243071.stm)

Palestinian groups refuse funds rather than sign a pledge promising that the money will not be used to support terrorism. 2003 (http://washingtontimes.com/world/20040107-110323-1224r.htm)

Those are all easily found examples of what life is like under Yasser Arafat.

And he's remained politically unopposed for what, 30 years now?

In fact Arafat and his Palestinian Authority are so bad that 300 Fatah Palestinians just resigned because of the Palestinian Authority's corruption and lack of reform.

Hundreds of Fatah members resign - BBC - Saturday, 7 February, 2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3469577.stm)



So demon, and other like you, you don't have a leg to stand on, the reason Palestinians are where they are is because of who they choose to lead them.

The reason Palestinians are where they are is not because of Israel, it is not because of Sharon, it is not because of Zionists and it is not because of America.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Nikk
So I think it's OK to cut and paste my reply which was...........

"Oh come on, it's no contest. The Israeli's have got theselves into a position where they have their backs to the sea and are surrounded by 200 million people who hate them. No superior culture could be so stupid.



So Nikk, it is Israel who had "made" 200 million Arabs "hate" them.

And it is Israel who "have got theselves into a position where they have their backs to the sea".


Man o'man you and Demon are priceless. Endless amoral and uneducated comedy....Hahahahahahaha

[demon]

"your world of denial, misinformation and hate"?

I`m not the one spouting crap about "disputed territories" or blaming the Arab countries for not taking in victims of ethnic cleansing.
You do not have the moral standing to tell anyone whose responsiblity it is to clean up your heros' purges.
Are the Palestinians being deprived of their land, denied freedom of movement and access to water by the Israelis, or by their Arab brothers? Failing to respond adequately to a refugee crisis is a little different from being the cause of it, don't you think?

Now, a little info for you, to put you straight so to speak.
The United Nations says the occupation of the territories is illegal. Resolution 242 explicitly condemns the acquisition of territory by military conquest, which is how Israel got hold of the occupied territories. Putting settlers in the territories is merely an attempt to muddy the waters.
As for Sharon pulling them out, he is indeed pandering to terrorists, but to the large-scale ones in Washington, not the comparatively minor ones in Palestine.


Now back to the subject of this thread after you trying to derail it with yet another one of your egotistical strawman rants.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by demon
I`m not the one spouting crap about "disputed territories" or blaming the Arab countries for not taking in victims of ethnic cleansing.


The terrirories are disputed.

You should blame Arab countries for letting palestinians live in refugee camps in Arab countries for 40 years without a chance at citizenship or the chance to buy land.

To not do so is denial.




Originally posted by demon
You do not have the moral standing to tell anyone whose responsiblity it is to clean up your heros' purges.

I recommend you research the Arab rejection of U.N. Resolution 181 and the 1948 War of Independance.

To not do so and to deny it is misinformation.


Originally posted by demon
Are the Palestinians being deprived of their land, denied freedom of movement and access to water by the Israelis, or by their Arab brothers?


Yes, Demon, Palestinians have no acess to water because of Israelis...luckily they have evolved to survive without the need of water.

They are being deprived land and movement because of their actions.



Originally posted by demon
Now, a little info for you, to put you straight so to speak.
The United Nations says the occupation of the territories is illegal. Resolution 242 explicitly condemns the acquisition of territory by military conquest, which is how Israel got hold of the occupied territories.

The Palestinian Charter - Palestinian Ministry of Information (http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/charter.htm)


Article 19: "The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is null and void from the very beginning"


Therefore Demon, the palestinians reject U.N. Resolution 181.

Your claim to U.N. Resolution 242 therfore becomes null and void as well.


As i said before, denial, misinformation and hate.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Mycroft
One could make an argument for “cultural relativism” where they would say that in order for me to make a value judgment on another’s culture I would have to judge them based on my own culture, but so what?

Pet peeve. This turns the concept of cultural relativism on its head. Perhaps that's why you put it in quotes. But the idea behind cultural relativism in anthropology is that it's generally impossible to understand a single, isolated fact about a cuture without also considering how it relates to the rest of the culture. It has nothing to do with value judgements.

Some people have short tempers with anthropologists because they generally avoid value judgement, but on the other hand, expecing an anthropologist to make a value judgement is about like expecting an organic chemist to tell you what tastes good. They may be able to do it, but it isn't what the profession is about.

[Ed]

Just attended my first Monster Truck Rally.... It has to be us 'Mericans.

Why, I wonder are the Palistinians pariahs? Might it be because nations might not want to open their door to violence? Any other reasons?

[demon]

"Why, I wonder are the Palistinians pariahs? Might it be because nations might not want to open their door to violence? Any other reasons?"

Why does that comment worry me Ed?
Are you suggesting Palestinians are predisposed to violence...
have some genetically inbuilt drive to physical aggression?
I know many Palestinian immigrants in Canada, the UK, USA etc and I`ve not heard that they have been a problem and they are not considered pariahs in their communities either.
Were they particularly violent towards their brethren tribes living alongside them in Palestine before the Balfour Declaration?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir




So Nikk, it is Israel who had "made" 200 million Arabs "hate" them.

And it is Israel who "have got theselves into a position where they have their backs to the sea".


Man o'man you and Demon are priceless. Endless amoral and uneducated comedy....Hahahahahahaha

Zenith you really do need to brush up on your reading skills, or perhaps your short term memory is at fault.

In my post, which you actually quoted in full for gods sake, I say ....."

The Israeli's have got theselves into a position where they have their backs to the sea and are surrounded by 200 million people who hate them. No superior culture could be so stupid. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------



A mere three or four lines later you misquote me and claim that I am saying that it is Israel who "made" 200 million arabs hate them thus utterly changing a mere value free observation into an apportionment of blame.

The word "made" does not even appear in my short post and yet you cheerfully invent it and even highlight it.

This is usually called making a strawman round here and I must say it's a poor example of the breed.

So how about a little more thought in future before you hit the reply button, hmmm?

[Ed]

Originally posted by demon
"Why, I wonder are the Palistinians pariahs? Might it be because nations might not want to open their door to violence? Any other reasons?"

Why does that comment worry me Ed?
Are you suggesting Palestinians are predisposed to violence...
have some genetically inbuilt drive to physical aggression?
I know many Palestinian immigrants in Canada, the UK, USA etc and I`ve not heard that they have been a problem and they are not considered pariahs in their communities either.
Were they particularly violent towards their brethren tribes living alongside them in Palestine before the Balfour Declaration?

Dunno, ask those countries. And I am suggesting that Palestinians appear to prefer child murder and suicide as weapons of choice. All Palistinians? Goodness no. In the past? Dunno. Now? Yes. I guess that those countries think that one is too many though. What conclusion would you draw from that? Avoidence of a problem that they perceive as somewhat real?

[The idea]

Originally posted by demon
I know many Palestinian immigrants in Canada, the UK, USA etc [...]
Do you know any Vietnamese immigrants in Canada, the UK, the USA, or elsewhere? I'm curious about any similarity or difference in attitude toward problems in their home countries. For example, in the opinion of Vietnamese immigrants, who is to blame for the problems in Vietnam?
For example:
(a) foreigners who had evil intentions
(b) foreigners who had good intentions but who were incompetent
(c) Vietnamese followers of an ideology

In your experience, do Palestinian immigrants dream of changes in the Middle East that will allow them to return there? Do Vietnamese immigrants dream of changes in Vietnam that will allow them to return?

[TillEulenspiegel]

I don't respond to these threads anymore because they wind up a test of history and semantics by dogmatics who are blind to any other point of view then thier own. I'm pretty sure the intent of the thread starter was to poke a stick in everyone's eye.
I would make this one observation tho..The wording of the topic made raise an eyebrow.

My best friend is a dentist, a funny guy ( his dad knew the three stooges ! ) who happens to be Jewish and not especially pious , is oft given to express his displeasure by casting the epithet "those Goddamn Isrealis" during conversations about the middle east ( He also uses the phrase "Goddamn Palistienians" with equal frequency.)

Another friend of mine a sharp tonged, keenly intelligent woman a psychologist ,who happens to be black ( with long ole dreadlocks down to her booty ), when painted by the phrase "African American" will retort with "I'm NO African American, I'm a Jamacian" ( she's on a green card ) seems like She and other Caribbean Island immigrants have a less then favorable opinion of the typical African American If I said some of the things She has said I would be labeled a bigot.

My two friends have made a conscious delineation between themselves and others who are topically alike .Point being that the opinion we may hold of people might not be based on race or religion but citizenship. People of the same faith and racial backgrounds do behave differently in different cultures..



Just an observation, rant on.

[ssibal]

I vote for the U.S. since the support we provide Israel is probably the reason they have not yet been "driven into the sea." But I wonder why there is so little outrage about a group of people who actively try to target and kill as many innocents as possible and their society which at the very least is indifferent to those actions.

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by The Fool
I have had to wade through numerous posts lately that inform me or the inherent inferiority of Palestinian people.


I presume I'm one of the people you refered to. So let me start out by making this quite clear: nothing is *inherently* any different about Palestinians than anyone else. Culture is not inherent. But Palestinian culture is indeed inferior. I have listed ways in which it is inferior, and you have yet to answer any of those points.


These posters don't just tell me this is thier opinion, they tell me it is fact. They are able to apply objective measurements and come up with a determination of the inherent superiority or inferiority of one people over another.


And yet you cannot refute me, except by claiming I'm racist. You cannot actually answer the claims I make, so you try, yet again, to change the subject. You have no answer to the fact that Palestinian culture oppresses women, does not value education, restricts the flow of information, is intolerant of other religions, and does not place a high value in work. But it's even worse than that. YOU are the racist one, because YOU are the one who claims that these are inherent features of Palestinians - it's right in the very first sentence of your post. I never made that claim. These are cultural traits only. And they can change, though the conditions necessary for that deserves its own thread.


This made me curious, if they are the worst, who is the best.....Who is the superior people...Americans or Israelis?


American culture is the best. And that is demonstrated by our success - we are the dominant nation on the planet because of the strengths of our culture. But apparently stating the obvious is "racist". Funny, though, Americans aren't a race. We're a bloody big mix of races, AND religions, and that diversity, and tolerance for diversity, is a great part of our strength.


So go for it...Is the Israeli Jew superior to the American Christian? We already know they are both superior to the Arab Muslim but we've settled the quarter finals...who wins the trophy...who is the master race?

Apparently you can't get it through your thick head that it's about culture, not race or even simply religion (though religion is part of culture). And you can't judge culture on an individual basis, because it'a a collective phenomenon. But apparently you want to, because apparently you think culture is intrinsic. I'm not even sure what political label you want to stick on me for saying this, but to me, the claim that culture is inherent is a racist claim, and YOU are the one making it, not me - why else would you say I claim that Palestinians have an "inherent inferiority" when I have, multiple times, explicitly said that I am refering to culture an not race?

I await you yet again ingoring the distinction between race and culture, since I know you're not going to have anything approaching a rational response on the actual issues.

[schplurg]

Would there even be an Israel without America?

This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen here...so of course I'll participate.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ziggurat

American culture is the best. And that is demonstrated by our success - we are the dominant nation on the planet because of the strengths of our culture.
Thanks for the vote...as for the rest of your rant, you must have me confused with someone who cares.

America scorches ahead to a six two lead. Israel will have to work hard to recover from this setback before this thread drops off the front page as boredom sets in.....

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by The Fool

Thanks for the vote...as for the rest of your rant, you must have me confused with someone who cares.


Thanks. I knew you were never interested in rational debate, but I do appreciate the uncharactaristic candor in that regard.

[The Fool]

At this point, with America scorching into a clear lead as the best people in the world I would like to bring to the attention of the American voters the television program "American Idol" I watched some of this last night and want to ask if any American voters if they wish to reconsider thier vote based on the programs content.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ziggurat


Thanks. I knew you were never interested in rational debate, but I do appreciate the uncharactaristic candor in that regard.
Dude...when you can convince me that there is a rational way of judging cultural superiority I'll agree to play....ok?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Ziggurat


Thanks. I knew you were never interested in rational debate, but I do appreciate the uncharactaristic candor in that regard.

Oh, yuir a riot, Ziggy. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Cleon]

Originally posted by The Fool
At this point, with America scorching into a clear lead as the best people in the world I would like to bring to the attention of the American voters the television program "American Idol" I watched some of this last night and want to ask if any American voters if they wish to reconsider thier vote based on the programs content.

"American Idol" is one of those gems of modern civilization that makes me seriously reconsider my position of being against global thermonuclear war.

[epepke]

Originally posted by schplurg
Would there even be an Israel without America?

This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen here...so of course I'll participate.

Let's put aside for a moment the distinct possibility that without America, it is likely that substantially fewer Jews would even have survived the 1940s.

In any event, you were aware that Eisenhower had an arms embargo against Israel and helped get Israel out of the Sinai, and there was little if any significant US support of Israel until after 1967, weren't you? And that in practical terms support didn't become galvanized until the mid-1970s, after the assassinations in Munich and the Yom Kippur war.

[demon]

Ed:
"And I am suggesting that Palestinians appear to prefer child murder and suicide as weapons of choice."
ssibal:
"But I wonder why there is so little outrage about a group of people who actively try to target and kill as many innocents as possible and their society which at the very least is indifferent to those actions."

These are remarkably dishonest statements.
Firstly, child murder occcurs on both sides...only yesterday did Israel bomb a car to murder a Palestinian they accuse of terrorism and killed a 12 year old boy in the process. Palestinians kill children too, yet they are not the fourth most advanced military power in the world...Israel is.

Nor can Israelis or their apologists take the moral high ground when it comes to respecting the lives of children. By continuing to establish illegal settlements throughout the Occupied Territories Israelis deliberately use their children as weapons in a campaign to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. They deliberately put their children in a war zone for reasons of economic oppression. When a nation which uses its own children effectively as tools of conquest lectures others on the sanctity of a child's life it is nothing short of obscene.

Finally, it is lunacy that you label suicide attacks as a 'weapon of choice'. Suicide attacks are an extreme last resort, a tactical choice, to which the Palestinians have been reduced through necessity. They are fighting to remove an invader who has overwhelming military power and a writ of immunity from the world's hyperpower, yet you perceive it as a mere 'choice'.
In fact suicide missions have a long history and are frequently used by people who have been left with no option but to lay down their lives. Many have sacrificed themselves to oppose tyranny and are lauded as such but it is only the Palestinians who have their respect for life, their basic humanity, called into question by the propaganda of the Israel State and it`s lackeys.

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by demon

Finally, it is lunacy that you label suicide attacks as a 'weapon of choice'. Suicide attacks are an extreme last resort, a tactical choice, to which the Palestinians have been reduced through necessity. They are fighting to remove an invader who has overwhelming military power and a writ of immunity from the world's hyperpower, yet you perceive it as a mere 'choice'.


It is a choice. Why isn't there a Palestinian sniper campaign against Israelis? That's not particularly fancy, and considering it's reuseable, it's potentially much more effective than suicide bombers. They could get sniper rifles easily enough. So why don't they?

Actually, there are several reasons. One reason is that they coudn't strike deep in Israeli territory, so it wouldn't have as big an effect on Israeli moral. Another reason is that the group backing it couldn't take credit. And that's a non-negligible factor. The various factors are competing for influence, and carrying out suicide operations gives them status. That's why they always announce the identities of suicide bombers, even though it brings retribution on the family of the suicide bomber. The group that identifies the bomber proves itself responsible. But you can't do that with snipers, because there's no way one group can prove that it, rather than a competing group, was responsible for any particular attack.


In fact suicide missions have a long history and are frequently used by people who have been left with no option but to lay down their lives. Many have sacrificed themselves to oppose tyranny and are lauded as such but it is only the Palestinians who have their respect for life, their basic humanity, called into question by the propaganda of the Israel State and it`s lackeys.

And yet again, we find the proponents of the Palestinian cause ignoring what the Palestinians themselves are saying. These people aren't merely dying for their cause, dieing IS part of their cause. Killing yourself in the bombing is very much part of the point, and they state this rather explicitly, time and time again. It is preferable for them to do a suicide bombing which kills X people than to throw the bomb into a croud killing that same number, and letting themselves get arrested after (which woud actually be preferable from a military point of view - force the Israelis to spend money on your incarceration). And that's messed up. It is also uncommon outside of the Islamic terrorist movements.

[Supercharts]

The Scots are the very best.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Supercharts
The Scots are the very best.
Hmmmmm...oh dammit, why not.

Thats one vote for the Scottish and I'm going to award a bonus point for Supercharts effort in providing the patriotic flag display...you american and Israeli voters could learn a thing or two about presentation from this guy......

Scotland, with 2 votes has now been included as a late entry. Could we see Israeli culture reduced to being inferior to highland culture by a late charge of votes?

Does anyone want to go back and tally the votes for me?...Every time I go back and read the reasons for one people being superior to another I end up laughing so much I spit coffee all over my keyboard...

[epepke]

Originally posted by Ziggurat
It is a choice. Why isn't there a Palestinian sniper campaign against Israelis? That's not particularly fancy, and considering it's reuseable, it's potentially much more effective than suicide bombers. They could get sniper rifles easily enough. So why don't they?

I can almost hear the kid in the picture sayin, "Come on, Ma! Why can't I dress up like a sniper this year?"

[The Fool]

Originally posted by epepke


I can almost hear the kid in the picture sayin, "Come on, Ma! Why can't I dress up like a sniper this year?"
Are you angling for bonus presentation points for the graphic?
If so...I would have to allow silly pictures of American and Israeli children (and now also Scottish children) So In the interests of bandwidth I will no longer award bonus points for pictures of children being exploited for political propaganda reasons.... I'm happy for you to use such pictures as a reason to make generalised judgements of the superiority of one people over another for the purposes of this competition....but this child does not appear to be American, Israeli or Scottish......please explain?

You are aware that Palestinians have already been awarded the title of most backward people on earth....this is a competition between Americans, Isaelis and now Scottish.

[The idea]

One more vote for the culture that nourished James Watt and James Clerk Maxwell.

[epepke]

Originally posted by The Fool

Are you angling for bonus presentation points for the graphic?

No! I want a solid bronze medal and a box of caramels.

I'm happy for you to use such pictures as a reason to make generalised judgements of the superiority of one people over another for the purposes of this competition....but this child does not appear to be American, Israeli or Scottish......please explain?

Racist! How do you know that he isn't Scottish? What, you think every Scot's gotta be wearin' the sporran and playin' the bagpipes and eatin' the porridge 24 hours a day?

[schplurg]

In any event, you were aware that Eisenhower had an arms embargo against Israel and helped get Israel out of the Sinai, and there was little if any significant US support of Israel until after 1967, weren't you?
I'm talking about currently. Without the U.S., Israel would probably be just a memory by now. Does that make America better? Not in my opinion, I'm not voting.

I don't participate in "Israel threads", mainly because I couldn't care less one way or the other anymore. But this one was so patently stupid I just couldn't resist.

It amazes me that this little speck of land gets so much attention in the media and on this board. I sometimes think that if they didn't get so much airplay every time something or someone blows up over there that they'd resort to other tactics. I think the press perpetuates the killings to some degree in a kind of crazy way.

My levels of priority start at home, with my family, and work outward from there to friends, community, state, nation, world. The plight of the Israelis, the Palestinians, the Iraqi's etc is far down on my "give a $#it list" right now. Yes I can think globally, but I also know when enough is enough. Maybe I'm having a bad day, but screw em.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by epepke

Racist! How do you know that he isn't Scottish? What, you think every Scot's gotta be wearin' the sporran and playin' the bagpipes and eatin' the porridge 24 hours a day?
well, that does happen to be the racial steryotype I use when I conclude that Scottish people are culturally inferior to Israelis.


so, come on.....don't leave us all hanging here...Is he a Scottish kid in disguise?

[epepke]

Originally posted by schplurg
I'm talking about currently. Without the U.S., Israel would probably be just a memory by now. Does that make America better? Not in my opinion, I'm not voting.

I'm not advocating America or Israel or whatever either, and I'm not voting. Of course it's a silly thread.

But, in your opinion, would Israel's 100+ nuclear warheads certainly be just a memory as well?

[epepke]

Originally posted by The Fool
well, that does happen to be the racial steryotype I use when I conclude that Scottish people are culturally inferior to Israelis.

Unfortunately, bagpipes are actually German, and the sporran is actually Greek in origin, but you may be right about the porridge.

so, come on.....don't leave us all hanging here...Is he a Scottish kid in disguise?

What, you want to know what he's wearing under his robe? Pedophile! Bestial drinker of unpurified filth! "Friends"-watcher!

[The Fool]

Originally posted by epepke


Of course it's a silly thread.


Im devastated....Is it the thread that you feel is silly or is it judging which is the inferior of two cultures that is silly...or is it (gasp) me that is silly?

[epepke]

Originally posted by The Fool

Im devastated....Is it the thread that you feel is silly or is it judging which is the inferior of two cultures that is silly...or is it (gasp) me that is silly?

Which would you prefer?

[WildCat]

I would normally avoid a silly thread such as this, but now that suicide bombers and Scotsman are mentioned...

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/unexploded_scotsman.jpg

[The Fool]

Originally posted by WildCat
I would normally avoid a silly thread such as this


Sheesh...If this keeps up I'll have to go to the Shemp clinic for compulsive silly thread starters....

I am at a loss as to who to attribute the point to? So I have decided to give wildcat 2 votes as the most original humour entry......One man one vote is such a silly bedwetting liberal Idea anyway.....

So, wildcat...who do your two votes go to? America? Israel? Scotland?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by The Fool


Sheesh...If this keeps up I'll have to go to the Shemp clinic for compulsive silly thread starters....

I am at a loss as to who to attribute the point to? So I have decided to give wildcat 2 votes as the most original humour entry......One man one vote is such a silly bedwetting liberal Idea anyway.....

So, wildcat...who do your two votes go to? America? Israel? Scotland?
2 votes! I feel so honored, though it is less than we normally get here in Chicago, where we vote early and often. ;)

Give 'em both to Scotland. :p

[epepke]

Originally posted by WildCat
I would normally avoid a silly thread such as this, but now that suicide bombers and Scotsman are mentioned...

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/unexploded_scotsman.jpg

All we need is a picture of Tim Brooke-Taylor defending himself with a set of bagpipes, and I think we can wrap this up.

[ssibal]

demon, the only dishonesty, equating the delibarate targeting and killing of innocents with the accidental killing of innocents. You completely miss the point with suicide attacks. The problem is not suicide attacks per se, the problem is who they are currently targeting (i.e. innocent civilians). Do not try to claim that there is no choice. Last time I checked there were plenty of Israeli soldiers, you know, the "ivaders who have overwhelming military power and a writ of immunity from the world's hyperpower." Nevermind the fact that the groups who commit these acts are not just interested in removing the invaders from "their land," they want every last Israeli dead. Oh and what is this fantasy history of suicide attacks you speak of, last time I checked they were not directed towards innocents.

[demon]

ssibal:
And yet... even now the death rate of Palestians is 3 to 1 greater than Israelis? Greater in previous years.
And yet ... the IDF is doing this murderous work in the neighbourhoods of Palestinians, much as Palestinians have recently attacked Israeli neighbourhoods.

Twenty thousand CIVILIANS were killed in the Lebanon by clumsy Israeli troops.

Children with rocks - and women with children - are clumsily killed on a weekly basis in the oppressed and terrorised territories.

You know, the Israelis have to stop exceptionalising. It's a sign of victimhood. "The deaths inflicted on us are infinitely worse than the ones we inflict on them." Are they? Well not to the dead and not to their bereaved.

Suicide bombing is a ghastly thing. No less ghastly is having tens of 'clumsy' (and I use this term ironically) targeted killings of supposed militants which kill twenty innocents at a time. There are enough former Israeli controllers of strikes and pilots of jets who are now telling the truth for you to get a handle on this.

I say "ironically" by the way, because the killing of Palestinians is of course deliberate. Simple logic and the reports of many organisations from the occupied territories leaves you no other answer.

Tell you what, you go off and read the Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky. Be sceptical by all means. But if you are, you owe it to yourself to follow up on the references he mentions to see if what he is saying is anti-Israel propaganda - or the unpalatable truth. Then go and read Norman Finkelstein. Don't believe him, just read him. Then verify what he says by going to his references. Then draw your conclusions.

Now read Benny Morris - a really rabid Zionist - but claiming a left wing pedigree. Promise yourself not to believe him, just read him. Now, see if the logic of Morris' arguments fits the facts he presents. He's a rare Zionist, prepared to write the truth as he sees it, but unable to draw the most elementary conclusions. His latest interview is a real eye opener, his conclusions inhuman. But he tries to tell the truth.

If you don't come out of this experience as if from a long sleep, you haven't read enough. Or, your values are such that Israel in your eyes will always be fundamentally right, the Palestinians fundamentally inferior.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by demon


If you don't come out of this experience as if from a long sleep, you haven't read enough. Or, your values are such that Israel in your eyes will always be fundamentally right, the Palestinians fundamentally inferior.
My own opinion of this underlying condemnation of Palestinians as inferior, backward and bloodthirsty savages comes from the standard practice of dehumanising your enemy in times of military conflict. The baby eating huns of WW1, The bandylegged shortsighted Japanese of WW2, the mindless hordes of North Korean and my own sneaky untrustworthy "gooks" of Vietnam. My own racist prejudices took some time to go away, as more "gooks" washed up in Australia and joined in my nations goals and dreams I came to know the people behind the "gook" label. I ended up working with Vietnamese who had fought against me in that tragic civil war that we stuck our noses in...

I can suggest one thing, If the people on this board who feel qualified to proclaim a society backward savages were to be required to live with them in Gaza for a year they may come to finally realise that there is one species on this planet, Homo sapiens Sapiens and terms like backward and savages say more about those that use them than the people they are directed at...


But on a lighter note..... with a significant number of positive votes and not one single piece of slander directed at them the winner of the award for the master race goes to the Scottish.... Supercharts stroke of genius in introducing them to the contest thumbing his nose at all the rules has been rewarded.

[Cain]

My own opinion of this underlying condemnation of Palestinians as inferior, backward and bloodthirsty savages comes from the standard practice of dehumanising your enemy in times of military conflict.

Yep. The British MPs comments sparked outrage probably because they expressed a common, shared humanity. The idea that under similar conditions, she -- abstruse metaphysical problems pertaining to personal identity notwithstanding -- might behave not too differently. Well, that's simply unacceptable.

As with blacks in the sixties, or gays today, it probably helps to actually know or -- good Lord! -- befriend an actual real-life Palestinian.

We're not savages like them. This is an enlightened society. So when Robert Kennedy was assassinated, for example, commentators, people from all levels of governemnt, quickly and uniformly condenmed "senseless violence." There was a great deal of mourning. Meanwhile, not a peep about the millions being slaughtered half-way around the world.

A rather good book is Jonathon Glover's _Humanity: A Moral History of the 20th Century_. A philosopher reviewing the worst crimes of the last 100 years.

[epepke]

Originally posted by The Fool
My own opinion of this underlying condemnation of Palestinians as inferior, backward and bloodthirsty savages comes from the standard practice of dehumanising your enemy in times of military conflict.

Oh, well, if you're going to be serious for a while, there are two possible polarized views of Palestinians, Germans, Japanese, or any other group of people:

1) They are vicious, nasty, bloodthirsty, inhuman barbarians.

2) They are wonderful, innocent, perfect angels, just like Us only Better, and so if there are any problems associated with them, it must be due to some other group of vicious, nasty, bloodthirsty, inhuman barbarians.

It is practially impossible, at least in this forum and in the others I have encountered, to present any opinion that is somewhere between 1 and 2 without being accused of holding one or the other opinion.

Which is why threads like this, if serious, are straw men.