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CplFerro
7th July 2010, 12:28 PM
Rappers seem to be fond of using strange hand gestures, which appear rather aggressive and intimidating as they are waved about and thrust at the audience. Whatever do these gestures mean? Is there a dictionary of them?

Naddig74
7th July 2010, 12:39 PM
I only know 'slamming down an imaginary phone like you were angry with the person you were just talking to.'

plumjam
7th July 2010, 12:49 PM
Most unseemly chaps. They really should take up cricket.

CynicalSkeptic
7th July 2010, 01:08 PM
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=treebeard31.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftreebeard31.files.wordpress.com%2 F2009%2F11%2Fgeek_gang_signs.jpg&sref=http%3A%2F%2Ftreebeard31.wordpress.com%2F2009 %2F11%2F30%2Fhand-solo-geek-gang-signs%2F

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/11/3/633612738873615881-GangSigns.jpg

IMST
7th July 2010, 01:32 PM
The gestures mean that they're studying Italian.

Cleon
7th July 2010, 02:25 PM
It's all about killing whitey.

Caustic Logic
7th July 2010, 03:03 PM
Aggressive hand signs I suspect serve a double purpose
1) I'ma pound you sucka
2) Also, and to a lesser extent, they may have specific meanings (place names, classes of crime, mythical ancestor narratives, etc)

Fnord
7th July 2010, 03:22 PM
1. B**** be dissin me. Gonna smack her down.

2. Gonna pop som caps inna some copz.

3. Show me som spect, ya ho.

4. I say, do you have any Grey Poupon?

5. Whitey be keepin teh races down -- kill whitey! Note: Since Mr. Obama was elected to the presidency, I haven't heard this last one very often. Seems that it really is possible for a non-white, non-republican male to be president. Too bad for the likes of Jesse Jackson, who made a career out of bagging on the "Rich White Establishment".

brodski
7th July 2010, 03:28 PM
Most unseemly chaps. They really should take up cricket.
Like this?
Bj7J7vXCf5w

Naddig74
7th July 2010, 03:50 PM
Like this?
Bj7J7vXCf5w

That's my posse, boyyeee...

ElMondoHummus
7th July 2010, 04:04 PM
They're a method of separating the white folks who simply adopt trends late from the white folks who're too damn square to adopt trends at all. :D

This actually goes beyond rapper gestures and rap in general (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/11/18/116-black-music-that-black-people-dont-listen-to-anymore/).

Naddig74
7th July 2010, 04:08 PM
They're a method of separating the white folks who simply adopt trends late from the white folks who're too damn square to adopt trends at all. :D

This actually goes beyond rapper gestures and rap in general (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/11/18/116-black-music-that-black-people-dont-listen-to-anymore/).

Am I over reacting again, or is that site...well...a bit racist?

bluesjnr
7th July 2010, 04:31 PM
If you are intimidated by hand gestures, then I think you might be one of them poofs folks talk about.

GrouchoMarxist
7th July 2010, 04:49 PM
Am I over reacting again, or is that site...well...a bit racist?

Yes.

Naddig74
7th July 2010, 04:54 PM
Yes.

Good answer. :boggled:

ElMondoHummus
7th July 2010, 04:55 PM
Am I over reacting again, or is that site...well...a bit racist?

Well, do we really need to delve into the differences between race-based comedy like what Chris Rock and Margaret Cho deliver and actual racism, which is about denigration, intolerance, and dislike to the point of loathing and hatred? Or do we just want to say "Yes, that'd be an overreaction"?

Naddig74
7th July 2010, 04:59 PM
Well, do we really need to delve into the differences between race-based comedy like what Chris Rock and Margaret Cho deliver and actual racism, which is about denigration, intolerance, and dislike to the point of loathing and hatred? Or do we just want to say "Yes, that'd be an overreaction"?

I'd prefer an either or...I've jumped to conclusions in the past...:boxedin:

Bikewer
7th July 2010, 05:27 PM
I confronted a group of young skateboarders of African-American descent a couple of years ago, and told them that they might be happier skateboarding somewhere else.

They began flashing signs at me, so I began improvising my own. They appeared...Displeased.

I Ratant
7th July 2010, 05:33 PM
1. B**** be dissin me. Gonna smack her down.

...
.
Saw (and heard) a guy dissing on his b**** at the Mall with the shoulder shakes and arm motions, and the usual foul language.
I was forced to listen to an Ice Cube rap, filth from start to end, where he was complaining about not getting the credit for starting this gangsta crap.

Fnord
7th July 2010, 08:43 PM
"Rap" is to music what emo freeverse is to poetry.

Buncha no-talent hacks getting rich by posing and posturing for ignorant masses.

Alareth
7th July 2010, 10:00 PM
It's NWO/Illuminati symbolism.

Really. It's true! :)

Just go to YouTube and search the term "rap Illuminati"

DevilsAdvocate
7th July 2010, 10:24 PM
<GEEK GANG SIGNS>Microsoft Office Suite 2007 Word™ to your motherboard. V to the B to the A, yall. :cool:

JoeyDonuts
7th July 2010, 10:33 PM
I'd ask Herbert Kornfeld down at Mid-State Office Supply, but that didn't turn out so well.

GrouchoMarxist
7th July 2010, 10:59 PM
I'd ask Herbert Kornfeld down at Mid-State Office Supply, but that didn't turn out so well.



"Receive this account beeyatch"

Foolmewunz
7th July 2010, 11:04 PM
"Rap" is to music what emo freeverse is to poetry.

Buncha no-talent hacks getting rich by posing and posturing for ignorant masses.

You've just described the bulk of pop music over the last four hundred years. Why single out Rap/Hip Hop?

Juniversal
7th July 2010, 11:40 PM
Rappers seem to be fond of using strange hand gestures, which appear rather aggressive and intimidating as they are waved about and thrust at the audience. Whatever do these gestures mean? Is there a dictionary of them?As a negro (that means I know what i'm talking about) and a partaker in the hip-hop culture i can confide in you that they mean absolutely nothing. Just a performance concession.

"Rap" is to music what emo freeverse is to poetry.

Buncha no-talent hacks getting rich by posing and posturing for ignorant masses.Wish I had some philoshophical statement in the vein of "don't knock that which you have no knowledge of" but I don't. Just a suggestion not to make sweeping generalizations that are no more apt then a statement like "heavy metal is nothing but screaming and growling into a mic". Believe it or not not all hip-hop is gansta rap and not all rappers are vapid materialist.

Puppycow
8th July 2010, 12:35 AM
White chicks and gang signs:
KKTDRqQtPO8

Puppycow
8th July 2010, 12:46 AM
Wish I had some philoshophical statement in the vein of "don't knock that which you have no knowledge of" but I don't. Just a suggestion not to make sweeping generalizations that are no more apt then a statement like "heavy metal is nothing but screaming and growling into a mic". Believe it or not not all hip-hop is gansta rap and not all rappers are vapid materialist.

I totally agree. Why do people think their own taste in music is somehow superior to or more sophisticated than that of others? If a certain kind of music is not your cup of tea, don't listen to it. But don't hate on people who like it just because their tastes are different.

Same thing with food, clothes, hairstyles, whatever.

Within reason of course.

Aitch
8th July 2010, 01:07 AM
Believe it or not not all hip-hop is gansta rap and not all rappers are vapid materialist.

Glad to hear it; could you provide some examples? For those of us who would like to check it out?

dafydd
8th July 2010, 02:00 AM
Concentrate on my hands and try not to listen to the ****** racket that I'm making?

dafydd
8th July 2010, 02:02 AM
You've just described the bulk of pop music over the last four hundred years. Why single out Rap/Hip Hop?

At least the pop music over the last four hundred years was music.As a fully qualified musician I can tell you that (c)rap and hip-hop have nothing to do with music.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 02:02 AM
I totally agree. Why do people think their own taste in music is somehow superior to or more sophisticated than that of others? If a certain kind of music is not your cup of tea, don't listen to it. But don't hate on people who like it just because their tastes are different.

Same thing with food, clothes, hairstyles, whatever.

Within reason of course.Same here. I might not love all genres of music but I know better then to generalize about the audience or talent of those involved. I'm very aware that taste vary and human beings have the ability for any certain style of music to appeal to them. No matter how eclectic, unique or different. Music is about as subjective as they come.

ThatSoundAgain
8th July 2010, 02:06 AM
Microsoft Office Suite 2007 Word™ to your motherboard. V to the B to the A, yall. :cool:

You know about nerdcore hiphop, right? If not:
5bueZoYhUlg
And, sorta relevant to this forum:
9Yrwzi3clPQ

dafydd
8th July 2010, 02:07 AM
I hope Mr. Hawking got paid for that.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 02:29 AM
Glad to hear it; could you provide some examples? For those of us who would like to check it out?Ask and you may recieve. Warning: There's some bad weeerds in some of these songs. :boggled:

The Roots -

UxR5sROpLQQ


Common -

2i3_VuRyGEg

Nas -

6Q2F6h_Ap6A

Outkast -

DCwHfGdt4Ig

Lupe Fiasco -

ll9c1S3d_v4

Talib Kweli (note the "aggressive" hand gestures while he explains the the lengths some will go to "get by" ;))-

UVtpXvzzXiA

Slum Village -

8npUnOX2ns8

Kanye West (Yes. That Kanye West) -

2JaWRPNqsI8

I could go on...but you get the point. I'm sure if you hate the genre before my post wont change your mind but that's not my intention. Only to prove hip-hop isn't only vapid materialism and violence as some of you seem to believe.

ThatSoundAgain
8th July 2010, 02:47 AM
Glad to hear it; could you provide some examples? For those of us who would like to check it out?

I don't particularly like rap / hiphop, but I do know of a few artists I can tolerate and even enjoy. A few of my friends are very knowledgeable about old school hiphop, and there is quite an undergrowth of non-gangster artists. They make rap music that's either socially conscious, straight party music, surreal or with humorous narratives.

Off the top of my head, you could look for the Roots, Digable Planets, Dr. Octagon / Kool Keith. Beastie Boys have a few examples of the narrative approach, but their sound is generally more objectionable to people who don't like rap anyway.

This track from Guru's Jazzmatazz demonstrates the musical potential of the spoken word quite nicely (it doesn't all have to sound like angry yelling):
8FzV21Lqd3A

From the socially conscious camp:
nY6rkPsLiEE

For surreal stuff, I have to mention Max Normal / Watkin Jones (before die Antwoord). Especially the album "Memoirs of a clone" is good (look for the songs "You talk too loud" and "Sleepy head"), but I can't find any youtube version where you can actually hear the lyrics clearly.

Again, I'm no expert, and haven't a lot invested in defending hiphop music. I just think it's sad when I hear an entire genre dismissed so casually. There's quality to be found, lyrically and musically, and sometimes both.

ETA: ... or you could just listen to Juniversal. ;)

Brainache
8th July 2010, 03:51 AM
http://www.muzu.tv/lukabloom/i-need-love-music-video/615411

An Irish folk singer covers an Ice Cube song.

Fnord
8th July 2010, 07:01 AM
You've just described the bulk of pop music over the last four hundred years. Why single out Rap/Hip Hop?
I actually enjoy the bulk of pop music, and I can't stand (c)Rap.

Aitch
8th July 2010, 08:11 AM
Assorted examples of the relevant genre.


Thanks for the effort, guys.

I'm still underwhelmed. It's all so samey (to my, admittedly not young, ears). Same beat, same rhythm, same structure of someone talking aggressively over a (usually) mediocre backing.

Sorry, guys; thanks, but no thanks.

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 08:41 AM
You've just described the bulk of pop music over the last four hundred years. Why single out Rap/Hip Hop?
.
The celebration of extreme violence, mostly directed towards women.

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 08:49 AM
As a negro (that means I know what i'm talking about) and a partaker in the hip-hop culture i can confide in you that they mean absolutely nothing. Just a performance concession.

Wish I had some philoshophical statement in the vein of "don't knock that which you have no knowledge of" but I don't. Just a suggestion not to make sweeping generalizations that are no more apt then a statement like "heavy metal is nothing but screaming and growling into a mic". Believe it or not not all hip-hop is gansta rap and not all rappers are vapid materialist.
.
I've been told and told and told I can't understand/appreciate rap crap because I'm white. (Which I am.)
And when forcing the teller to listen to "Maybelline"... or "Louie, Louie".. she tells me they're white also.
It was to guffaw! :)
Noises glorifying the murder of witnesses to prevent their testimony... are acted on! Noises glorifying the suppression of "snitches" to keep the 'hood under control of the gangs are acted on.
Whatever few smarmy rap-craps there are, the number of violence promoting noises totally overwhelms them.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 08:52 AM
At least the pop music over the last four hundred years was music.As a fully qualified musician I can tell you that (c)rap and hip-hop have nothing to do with music.

Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 08:57 AM
I do pass this one on to my up-tight redneck friends.. it really torques their jaws.. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8iouO9JRH0

brodski
8th July 2010, 08:59 AM
Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.

Just like metal is (usually innane) screaming set to some feeback.
I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music...

Or perhaps these types of arguments are a load of bollocks. And I say this as a fully qualified internet poster, so you know I speak from authority...

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 09:03 AM
Just like metal is (usually innane) screaming set to some feeback.
I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music...

Or perhaps these types of arguments are a load of bollocks. And I say this as a fully qualified internet poster, so you know I speak from authority...

Feel free to point out the screaming here:
8Pjh0visgJI

Aitch
8th July 2010, 09:30 AM
Feel free to point out the screaming here:
8Pjh0visgJI

Not a great deal of feedback either. ;)

Mind you, is that what they call Metal these days? I'd have said it was more prog than metal. :cool:

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 09:31 AM
Not a great deal of feedback either. ;)

Mind you, is that what they call Metal these days? I'd have said it was more prog than metal. :cool:

Symphonic Power Metal that be.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 09:32 AM
There's an awful lot of old and white in this thread.

Anyways, responding to the OP

(assuming there was a genuine curiosity there)

Not generally having a melody (other than in the chorus, and in particular in West Coast rap), rap music depends more than most musical genres on rhythm. Waving the hand up and down, side to side, or back and forth is a way that the rappers keep their cadence and rhythm going along with the beat. You will often see this rhythmic motion extended to the shoulders, neck and even the torso.

In a battle context, the use of the hand as an autonomic metronome can be coupled with the use of one's limbs to violate the personal space of one's opponent in an effort to intimidate and dominate them.

Rap also depends intensively on the rapper being able to convey emotion through the tone of voice (again, not having the use of melody to convey emotional content.) To effectively convey certain emotions the rapper must assume the required affect in live performances and studio recordings, let alone in music videos. Many rap songs deal with aggression and / or broggadoccio, hence the often aggressive nature of the hand and arm gestures.

The use of the arm and hand as a metronome, acting device and tool of intimidation should not be confused with the use of gang signs. While some rappers are affiliated with certain street gangs, there is no one-to-one correlation between gangs and rap. Just because you see a rapper gesticulating to the beat does not mean this rapper is a gangster.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 09:33 AM
Hmm ...maybe even a whiff of racist, but I don't really have a nose for such things...

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 09:43 AM
At least the pop music over the last four hundred years was music.As a fully qualified musician I can tell you that (c)rap and hip-hop have nothing to do with music.

Ok, grandma. The goobers at the square dance are lost without you. Don't forget yer fiddle! :D

ZirconBlue
8th July 2010, 09:44 AM
There's an awful lot of old and white in this thread.

Anyways, responding to the OP

(assuming there was a genuine curiosity there)

Not generally having a melody (other than in the chorus, and in particular in West Coast rap), rap music depends more than most musical genres on rhythm. Waving the hand up and down, side to side, or back and forth is a way that the rappers keep their cadence and rhythm going along with the beat. You will often see this rhythmic motion extended to the shoulders, neck and even the torso.

In a battle context, the use of the hand as an autonomic metronome can be coupled with the use of one's limbs to violate the personal space of one's opponent in an effort to intimidate and dominate them.

Rap also depends intensively on the rapper being able to convey emotion through the tone of voice (again, not having the use of melody to convey emotional content.) To effectively convey certain emotions the rapper must assume the required affect in live performances and studio recordings, let alone in music videos. Many rap songs deal with aggression and / or broggadoccio, hence the often aggressive nature of the hand and arm gestures.

The use of the arm and hand as a metronome, acting device and tool of intimidation should not be confused with the use of gang signs. While some rappers are affiliated with certain street gangs, there is no one-to-one correlation between gangs and rap. Just because you see a rapper gesticulating to the beat does not mean this rapper is a gangster.

Good post, Captain.

Incidentally, I think, the lack of (emphasis on) melody is where the "it's not music" charge comes from. The only rap/hip-hop I tend to enjoy has stronger elements of melody.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 09:53 AM
.
I've been told and told and told I can't understand/appreciate rap crap because I'm white. (Which I am.)


So? I've been told homeopathy works.


And when forcing the teller to listen to "Maybelline"... or "Louie, Louie".. she tells me they're white also.
It was to guffaw! :)


Only proving that person is a moron. What's new?


Noises glorifying the murder of witnesses to prevent their testimony... are acted on! Noises glorifying the suppression of "snitches" to keep the 'hood under control of the gangs are acted on.


Kinda like how rock music makes kids kill themselves?


Whatever few smarmy rap-craps there are, the number of violence promoting noises totally overwhelms them.

Evidence? Remember that you're the one who's bringing up numbers here. In any case, you've already cast the non-violent rap songs as "smarmy rap-craps" so, you've already prejudged the whole genre, right?

Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.

The Dio avatar makes you the authority, eh? Has it occurred to you that 17th century composers wouldn't consider metal to be music?

There *is* a lot of old and white in this thread. :boggled:

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 10:12 AM
So? I've been told homeopathy works.



Only proving that person is a moron. What's new?



Kinda like how rock music makes kids kill themselves?



Evidence? Remember that you're the one who's bringing up numbers here. In any case, you've already cast the non-violent rap songs as "smarmy rap-craps" so, you've already prejudged the whole genre, right?



The Dio avatar makes you the authority, eh? Has it occurred to you that 17th century composers wouldn't consider metal to be music?

There *is* a lot of old and white in this thread. :boggled:
.
already prejudged the whole genre, right?
Why, yes my good man, I have painted the genre with the broad brush of disrespect.
.
The few crap noises I've heard that are worth listening to at all make the same impression as a fart in the tornado of rap/crap filth would.

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 10:19 AM
.
The celebration of extreme violence, mostly directed towards women.

Oh, OK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qrjtr_uFac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1xSt7iganA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siWmOSByIOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20tWDFxQq5A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhu-OyHqZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw7gNf_9njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRD3qDoZqM

Noises glorifying the murder of witnesses to prevent their testimony... are acted on! Noises glorifying the suppression of "snitches" to keep the 'hood under control of the gangs are acted on.
yessir without rap there would be no urban violence at all, thanks for this insight
HzeZhCt5PVA

truethat
8th July 2010, 10:39 AM
Feel free to point out the screaming here:
8Pjh0visgJI

Jesus Christ that sucked. I'd rather hear rap.

There are a few rap songs I love. I know that to people who love rap my choices are laughable but there are a few I find really good.

Gangsta's Paradise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFK6H_CcuX8

Not all rap denigrates women
Keep Ya Head Up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXwmDGJAB8&feature=related

Dear Mama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rpDmqRrnaI

Stan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyHwM8WP0Z4


And if your thinking metal I could throw a few your way as well.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 10:47 AM
So? I've been told homeopathy works.



Only proving that person is a moron. What's new?



Kinda like how rock music makes kids kill themselves?



Evidence? Remember that you're the one who's bringing up numbers here. In any case, you've already cast the non-violent rap songs as "smarmy rap-craps" so, you've already prejudged the whole genre, right?



The Dio avatar makes you the authority, eh? Has it occurred to you that 17th century composers wouldn't consider metal to be music?

There *is* a lot of old and white in this thread. :boggled:

So 22 is old now. Interesting.

Fnord
8th July 2010, 10:49 AM
... I've been told and told and told I can't understand/appreciate rap crap because I'm white...
.
"It's a black thing ... you wouldn't understand" has to be one of the most condescending pieces of racist bulshido ever uttered.

Oops ... I forgot that only white males can be racist ... my bad ...

:rolleyes:

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 10:52 AM
.
already prejudged the whole genre, right?
Why, yes my good man, I have painted the genre with the broad brush of disrespect.
.
The few crap noises I've heard that are worth listening to at all make the same impression as a fart in the tornado of rap/crap filth would.

Well then you've just heard crap noises. It's too bad your exposure to rap music has been so limited. Your willful prejudice is doubly unfortunate.

And I'm confused--was the fart worth listening to? If so, that might explain your musical preferences. :)

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 10:54 AM
So 22 is old now. Interesting.

Ah, you're talking from the perspective of limited experience. that makes even more sense, and is more forgivable. :)

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 10:56 AM
.
"It's a black thing ... you wouldn't understand" has to be one of the most condescending pieces of racist bulshido ever uttered.

Oops ... I forgot that only white males can be racist ... my bad ...

:rolleyes:

So now rap music is bad because it's racist?

Wow, play the reverse-race card much?

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 11:05 AM
Well then you've just heard crap noises. It's too bad your exposure to rap music has been so limited. Your willful prejudice is doubly unfortunate.

And I'm confused--was the fart worth listening to? If so, that might explain your musical preferences. :)
.
I've got tapes and CDs by Rainy Davis, Cheryl Riley, Rebbie Jackson, Shirley Murdoch, Anita Baker, Sinnita, Sade, Donna Summer... which while away the hours in the car.
And Eurhythmics, Jim Croce, U2, Beatles, Joan Jett, Laura Branigan, Reba McEntire, Bonnie Raitt, Pretenders, .. my "taste" in music is like my former religion, catholic.
And hours of VHS tapes from MTV, mostly older than 1985, when heavy metal began polluting the media.
No Gregorian chanting, but Enigma comes close.

dafydd
8th July 2010, 11:24 AM
Ok, grandma. The goobers at the square dance are lost without you. Don't forget yer fiddle! :D

I'm a musician and a music fan,hence my distaste for rap and hip-hop.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 11:25 AM
Ah, you're talking from the perspective of limited experience. that makes even more sense, and is more forgivable. :)

bahahahahahahahahahahaha!


No. I played trumpet (usually Jazz but some orchestral as well) for seven years, and often listen to between 4 and 6 hours of music a day. There is nothing limited about my musical experience.

dafydd
8th July 2010, 11:27 AM
Well then you've just heard crap noises. It's too bad your exposure to rap music has been so limited. Your willful prejudice is doubly unfortunate.

And I'm confused--was the fart worth listening to? If so, that might explain your musical preferences. :)

Take a look at my avatar,there is a man with more musical talent than all the rappers lumped together.The Residents are a favourite too.

CynicalSkeptic
8th July 2010, 11:27 AM
Mind you, is that what they call Metal these days? I'd have said it was more prog than metal. :cool:

Of course it's metal, they all have long hair.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 11:29 AM
.
I've got tapes and CDs by Rainy Davis, Cheryl Riley, Rebbie Jackson, Shirley Murdoch, Anita Baker, Sinnita, Sade, Donna Summer... which while away the hours in the car.
And Eurhythmics, Jim Croce, U2, Beatles, Joan Jett, Laura Branigan, Reba McEntire, Bonnie Raitt, Pretenders, .. my "taste" in music is like my former religion, catholic.
And hours of VHS tapes from MTV, mostly older than 1985, when heavy metal began polluting the media.
No Gregorian chanting, but Enigma comes close.

I didn't mean to imply that your prejudice had anything to do with race. And by limited exposure, I meant limited exposure to rap music. The genre is a LOT more varied than most people give it credit for. I personally can't stand gangsta rap or 'pop' rap either. But then, I put gangsta rap and metal like Cannibal Corpse in the same category of stuff I won't listen to. I tend to like the more intellectual, funky, melodic, happier stuff myself.

If it gets my wife on the dance floor for a few minutes, I'm all for it. If it gets my two-year old daughter dancing, I generally like it. None of us is a big fan of Ghetto Boyz or NWA.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 11:36 AM
Of course it's metal, they all have long hair.

So did Pink Floyd. Didn't make them metal.

Bruce Dickinson doesn't. He's still metal.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 11:37 AM
Meh

I like all kinds of music

But mostly rap

Well it used to be mostly rap

I'm kinda back onto skater punk these days

But anyways
yeah
I like all kinds of rap
but mostly

I like gangster rap.

The stuff you guys will all hold your noses and go 'pooh pooh' at.
Yeah
That's what I mostly like to listen to when I listen to rap

Kurupt, Crooked Eye, 50 Cent, Papoose (pa---pooose), Peedi Crakk, Dip Set (when they were around, esp. Hell Rell and JR Writer), Starang Wondah (iffy in the gangsta rap category actually), WestSide Connection (kinda old)

awww yeah
love that stuff

ewwwww
it glorifies drugs!
it denigrates women!!
it's viooooleeeennnnt.
it's so baad.

Pfft.

Pizz off with that.

Nobody would bat an eyelild if I said I liked mob movies.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 11:37 AM
bahahahahahahahahahahaha!


No. I played trumpet (usually Jazz but some orchestral as well) for seven years, and often listen to between 4 and 6 hours of music a day. There is nothing limited about my musical experience.

I'm not talking about how many years of band camp you have under your belt. I'm talking about making idiot remarks like "All rap music is crap" or "All scientists are social retards " or "All Mexicans are lazy". If you are still talking in simple absolutes, chances are your experience is limited.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 11:38 AM
I didn't mean to imply that your prejudice had anything to do with race. And by limited exposure, I meant limited exposure to rap music. The genre is a LOT more varied than most people give it credit for. I personally can't stand gangsta rap or 'pop' rap either. But then, I put gangsta rap and metal like Cannibal Corpse in the same category of stuff I won't listen to. I tend to like the more intellectual, funky, melodic, happier stuff myself.

If it gets my wife on the dance floor for a few minutes, I'm all for it. If it gets my two-year old daughter dancing, I generally like it. None of us is a big fan of Ghetto Boyz or NWA.

Ah, Cannibal Corpse. funny band. I never could get into that sort of screaming death metal.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 11:41 AM
I'm not talking about how many years of band camp you have under your belt. I'm talking about making idiot remarks like "All rap music is crap" or "All scientists are social retards " or "All Mexicans are lazy". If you are still talking in simple absolutes, chances are your experience is limited.

I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 11:48 AM
Take a look at my avatar,there is a man with more musical talent than all the rappers lumped together.
Don't know who it is, perfectly happy not knowing.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.
Is "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" music?

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 11:51 AM
Don't know who it is, perfectly happy not knowing.

Captain Beefheart and his magic band : Trout Mask Replica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout_Mask_Replica

Probably one of the most influential rock albums ever made.

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 11:59 AM
Captain Beefheart and his magic band : Trout Mask Replica

Probably one of the most influential rock albums ever made.
I've found that bands that influenced rock in the 1970s time frame mostly influenced it for the worse.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 12:02 PM
I've found that bands that influenced rock in the 1970s time frame mostly influenced it for the worse.

I have a very different experience there, as my favourite genres, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal and Progressive Rock all emerged around the end of the 60s.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 12:07 PM
I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

When people give simple definitions (or imply that there *are* simple definitions) of notoriously complex concepts, I find it suspicious.

I'd like to hear your definition of music.

brodski
8th July 2010, 12:12 PM
I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

I'd love to see you argue this through, rather than just assert your position, without arguing or implying that a drum is not a musical instrument.

So, do you have a case to make?

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 12:13 PM
When people give simple definitions (or imply that there *are* simple definitions) of notoriously complex concepts, I find it suspicious.

I'd like to hear your definition of music.

I know it when I hear it.

More seriously, it's almost impossible to define what music is, since music is itself an artificial construct given to a way we make noise.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 12:14 PM
I'd love to see you argue this through, rather than just assert your position, without arguing or implying that a drum is not a musical instrument.

So, do you have a case to make?

No, only an opinion.

ETA: though, if I listen to a drum it is clearly playing a note, and that note differs depending on which part of the drum kit is hit (hi-hat, snare etc.) I'd love to know what notes say, Snoop Dogg is "singing". Hell, I doubt he even knows. Why would he? It's not important to his style of rap.

dafydd
8th July 2010, 12:14 PM
I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

Quite right I don't object to anyone indulging themselves in it,others can listen to it till their eyes bubble if they choose.I object to rap and hip-hop being classed as forms of music,that's all.

brodski
8th July 2010, 12:16 PM
I know it when I hear it.
Positions you have taken in this thread seem to contradict that statement.

brodski
8th July 2010, 12:17 PM
Quite right I don't object to anyone listening to,others can listen to it till their eyes bubble if they choose.I object to rap and hip-hop being classed as forms of music.

So, what makes them not-music?
What makes classifying them as music objectionable?

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the effort, guys.

I'm still underwhelmed. It's all so samey (to my, admittedly not young, ears). Same beat, same rhythm, same structure of someone talking aggressively over a (usually) mediocre backing.

Sorry, guys; thanks, but no thanks.Wouldn't expect for you to have a change of heart because of the links I posted. It's not unusual for those with no experience with a certain genre to believe "it all sounds the same". What you equate with "talking agressively" I equate with mic presence and energy. Anybody can speak over a backing track but not everyone can flow or "ride the beat". Traditionally cadence, mic presence, lyrical prowess and flow were important elements to what defined a good rapper. Unfortunately the opposite seems to be true these days and image is sold over talent. And the instrumentals certainly aren't the "same rhythm or beat".

.
I've been told and told and told I can't understand/appreciate rap crap because I'm white. (Which I am.)
And when forcing the teller to listen to "Maybelline"... or "Louie, Louie".. she tells me they're white also.
It was to guffaw! :)
Noises glorifying the murder of witnesses to prevent their testimony... are acted on! Noises glorifying the suppression of "snitches" to keep the 'hood under control of the gangs are acted on.
Whatever few smarmy rap-craps there are, the number of violence promoting noises totally overwhelms them.Yes and Heavy Metal is nothing but devil worshiping music that brain washes kids and causes them to shoot up their schools. :rolleyes: And can't say i've heard that "because you're white" argurment often. I'd say it's a more of a generational or geographical matter then race.

Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.Music -

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

So yes. It is music. Spoken word poetry and rap are not one in the same.

Don't know who it is, perfectly happy not knowing.


Is "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" music?No. Not at all. It's just a guy talking over a mediocre backing beat. :p

ETA: though, if I listen to a drum it is clearly playing a note, and that note differs depending on which part of the drum kit is hit (hi-hat, snare etc.) I'd love to know what notes say, Snoop Dogg is "singing". Hell, I doubt he even knows. Why would he? It's not important to his style of rap.Melody cleary isn't one of the definitive qualities of hip-hop. Naturally a song can have a melody and the melody can be important but the rymthic quality of the vocals over the backing track is what defines hip-hop. Not the melody.

dudalb
8th July 2010, 12:45 PM
I don't care if it technically is music or not, I still hate Rap/Hip Hop or whatever you want to call it.
"I Still say it's Spinach and I still say The Hell With It".

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 12:45 PM
The human organism responds to musical vibrations. This fact is universally recognized. What instincts then are aroused by jazz? Certainly not deeds of valor or martial courage, for all marches and patriotic hymns are of regular rhythm and simple harmony; decidedly not contentment or serenity, for the songs of home and the love of native land are all of the simplest melody and harmony with noticeably regular rhythm. Jazz disorganizes all regular laws and order; it stimulates to extreme deeds, to a breaking away from all rules and conventions; it is harmful and dangerous, and its influence is wholly bad.

A number of scientific men who have been working on experiments in musico-therapy with the insane, declare that while regular rhythms and simple tones produce a quieting effect on the brain of even a violent patient, the effect of jazz on the normal brain produces an atrophied condition on the brain cells of conception, until very frequently those under the demoralizing influence of the persistent use of syncopation, combined with inharmonic partial tones, are actually incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, right and wrong.

Last winter, at one of the biggest high schools in one of our largest cities, a survey was made of the popular songs of the day by the music supervisor, who suggested that a community sing be held for one assembly each week. He requested the students to bring all the popular songs to school that a choice might be made of what to sing. At the end of two weeks he had in his office over two thousand "best sellers." He asked the student body to appoint from among themselves a committee of six to choose the songs to be sung at the assembly. This committee, after going through the two thousand songs, chose forty as being "fit for boys and girls to sing together." With this evil influence surrounding our coming generation, it is not to be wondered at that degeneracy should be developing so rapidly in America.

In a recent letter to the author, Dr. Henry van Dyke says of jazz: "As I understand it, it is not music at all. It is merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion. Its fault lies not in syncopation, for that is a legitimate device when sparingly used. But 'jazz' is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity."

--Anne Shaw Faulkner, "Does Jazz Put the 'Sin' in Syncopation?", Ladies Home Journal, August 1921

dudalb
8th July 2010, 12:48 PM
Meh

I like all kinds of music

But mostly rap

Well it used to be mostly rap

I'm kinda back onto skater punk these days

But anyways
yeah
I like all kinds of rap
but mostly

I like gangster rap.

The stuff you guys will all hold your noses and go 'pooh pooh' at.
Yeah
That's what I mostly like to listen to when I listen to rap

Kurupt, Crooked Eye, 50 Cent, Papoose (pa---pooose), Peedi Crakk, Dip Set (when they were around, esp. Hell Rell and JR Writer), Starang Wondah (iffy in the gangsta rap category actually), WestSide Connection (kinda old)

awww yeah
love that stuff

ewwwww
it glorifies drugs!
it denigrates women!!
it's viooooleeeennnnt.
it's so baad.

Pfft.

Pizz off with that.

Nobody would bat an eyelild if I said I liked mob movies.

Don't Worry. You will grow out of it.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 12:58 PM
There's an awful lot of old and white in this thread.

Anyways, responding to the OP

(assuming there was a genuine curiosity there)

Not generally having a melody (other than in the chorus, and in particular in West Coast rap), rap music depends more than most musical genres on rhythm. Waving the hand up and down, side to side, or back and forth is a way that the rappers keep their cadence and rhythm going along with the beat. You will often see this rhythmic motion extended to the shoulders, neck and even the torso.

In a battle context, the use of the hand as an autonomic metronome can be coupled with the use of one's limbs to violate the personal space of one's opponent in an effort to intimidate and dominate them.

Rap also depends intensively on the rapper being able to convey emotion through the tone of voice (again, not having the use of melody to convey emotional content.) To effectively convey certain emotions the rapper must assume the required affect in live performances and studio recordings, let alone in music videos. Many rap songs deal with aggression and / or broggadoccio, hence the often aggressive nature of the hand and arm gestures.

The use of the arm and hand as a metronome, acting device and tool of intimidation should not be confused with the use of gang signs. While some rappers are affiliated with certain street gangs, there is no one-to-one correlation between gangs and rap. Just because you see a rapper gesticulating to the beat does not mean this rapper is a gangster.Well summed up. Also i'm seeing a disturbing form of fascism in this thread. :boxedin:

I don't care if it technically is music or not, I still hate Rap/Hip Hop or whatever you want to call it.
"I Still say it's Spinach and I still say The Hell With It".Honestly this is how I still feel about death Metal and the like. I can listen to SOME modern metal and enjoy it but growling and screaming is not my thing and one could easily place in the ranks of "non-music" by simply saying "unintelligibly sreaming and growling into a mic is NOT music". But I know better then that (not to imply that you like death metal dudalb. Just making a point). ;)

Jackson Pollock not art because a "5 year old could do it"? Hip-hop/rap not music because it's "talking over a beat"? Metal not music because it's "unintelligibly sreaming and growling into a mic?" I could go on and on.

ThatSoundAgain
8th July 2010, 01:04 PM
Take a look at my avatar,there is a man with more musical talent than all the rappers lumped together.The Residents are a favourite too.

And yet Beefheart, as heard on Trout Mask and the Zappa collaborations, is belting furiously (or downright reciting) atop a rhythmically driven instrumental as much as he is singing in a traditional sense.

Residents, too; for example, in Semolina as performed in the recent Talking Light tour, Randy was as far from - or as close to - singing melodically, as any rapper. On top of that, they performed several spoken word pieces with soundscape backing and instrumental interludes.

Really, both bands are poor examples if you want poetry and the spoken word disallowed in music.

Full disclosure: I like Beefheart and Residents too, and to a lesser extent a very limited (as probably demonstrated by my ignorance) selection of rappers.

Suddenly
8th July 2010, 01:06 PM
This thread delivers.

It reminds me of a black client I had who got popped in BackwoodsMcWhiteyville for possession. There were two guys and two girls in the car. When asked about the girls he said "They just a couple of hos."

So... the cops added a prostitution charge.

White people are funny sometimes.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 01:18 PM
The human organism responds to musical vibrations. This fact is universally recognized. What instincts then are aroused by jazz? Certainly not deeds of valor or martial courage, for all marches and patriotic hymns are of regular rhythm and simple harmony; decidedly not contentment or serenity, for the songs of home and the love of native land are all of the simplest melody and harmony with noticeably regular rhythm. Jazz disorganizes all regular laws and order; it stimulates to extreme deeds, to a breaking away from all rules and conventions; it is harmful and dangerous, and its influence is wholly bad.

A number of scientific men who have been working on experiments in musico-therapy with the insane, declare that while regular rhythms and simple tones produce a quieting effect on the brain of even a violent patient, the effect of jazz on the normal brain produces an atrophied condition on the brain cells of conception, until very frequently those under the demoralizing influence of the persistent use of syncopation, combined with inharmonic partial tones, are actually incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, right and wrong.

Last winter, at one of the biggest high schools in one of our largest cities, a survey was made of the popular songs of the day by the music supervisor, who suggested that a community sing be held for one assembly each week. He requested the students to bring all the popular songs to school that a choice might be made of what to sing. At the end of two weeks he had in his office over two thousand "best sellers." He asked the student body to appoint from among themselves a committee of six to choose the songs to be sung at the assembly. This committee, after going through the two thousand songs, chose forty as being "fit for boys and girls to sing together." With this evil influence surrounding our coming generation, it is not to be wondered at that degeneracy should be developing so rapidly in America.

In a recent letter to the author, Dr. Henry van Dyke says of jazz: "As I understand it, it is not music at all. It is merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion. Its fault lies not in syncopation, for that is a legitimate device when sparingly used. But 'jazz' is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity."

--Anne Shaw Faulkner, "Does Jazz Put the 'Sin' in Syncopation?", Ladies Home Journal, August 1921Those dern whipper snappers and their loud hip-hop Jazz music. http://e-mpire.com/images/smilies/old_man.gif

ThatSoundAgain
8th July 2010, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the effort, guys.

All we can do from over here ;)

I'm still underwhelmed. It's all so samey (to my, admittedly not young, ears). Same beat, same rhythm, same structure of someone talking aggressively over a (usually) mediocre backing.

Sorry, guys; thanks, but no thanks.

It's probably, like many styles of music, an acquired taste. At least I've learned, in my circles, who I shouldn't attempt to share my enthusiasm for (some of) these things with.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 01:38 PM
fascism

People hate all kinds of music for all kinds of reasons, but you rarely hear as much vitriolic animosity to any other form of music as you hear directed at rap.

Honestly, I think that rap is singled out for censure so much partly because it's black music.

I think it's partly a manifestation of racism.

This is of course not to say that anyone that hates rap music hates it because they are racist.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 01:41 PM
Take a look at my avatar,there is a man with more musical talent than all the rappers lumped together.The Residents are a favourite too.

You don't consider rap to be music, but The ****** Residents are a favorite band?

Either you're trolling, or you're sadly oblivious to irony.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 01:48 PM
I don't care if it technically is music or not, I still hate Rap/Hip Hop or whatever you want to call it.
"I Still say it's Spinach and I still say The Hell With It".

At least you're expressing an opinion honestly--as an opinion, and aren't trying to dress it up in rhetoric and call it an argument.

I can't stand improvisational jazz. It's just soul-less music nerds masturbating with their instruments. To me, if anything is stretching the definition of music it's improvisational jazz.

I can't stand jam bands, either. Phish and Widespread Panic and the like bore me to tears.

roger
8th July 2010, 02:09 PM
We can talk about music in an information theoretic sense.

Let me explain - roughly speaking, we can describe the complexity of data by how compressible it is. A series of 3 million ones in a row would take 3 million words to write out fully, or I can compress it as 1*3M - 4 words. That massive compression tells us there is actually very real data there.

On to music. Say I sing "mary had a little lamb" off key. That can be compressed tightly for several reasons - the words are simple, the rhymes are simple, phrases are repeated, the tune only covers a few notes (it was the very first song taught to me when I learned to play clarinet in school - that should tell you something), and it is short. The compression ratio is high, and the complexity of the song (I'm sure all of you will admit) is low. Compare this to say, trying to compress a Wagner opera. You are not going to get very far there.

I think there is more to music than compressibility, of course! But, in large measure, that is what we are talking about when we talk about quality in music. It is varied, it is new, the harmonic structures are varied, the instrumentation is layered and detailed, etc. Yes, there are exceptions, I did say 'in large measure'. The important point follows....

I don't listen to much rap, hence, it all sounds largely the same to me. I'm sure a rap aficionado would say the same about the baroque music I listen to ("elevator music") . Our respective ignorance of the other's music choice allows us to compress the data highly, thus attributing it very low scores on quality, innovativeness, artist skill, etc. "It all sounds the same to me" is code for "I can compress this into 3 bits, thus, it's nearly empty content-wise". In general I assert that music that can be compressed into very tight data (say, the vuvuzela played with 3 long honks) is going to be considered 'crap' by people, and music that cannot be compressed much is going to have a lot of fans.

I would hazard a guess the average rap song is less complex (from an information theortic point of view) than the average Bach piece of the same length. I somehow doubt it is less complex than whatever Spears or whoever is on the top 10 this week is churning out.

I know I for one could never give a credible rap performance. And I'm talking about rehearsing for weeks, not an extemporaneous performance where the words and rhymes are created in reaction to all the things happening during the performance.

dirtywick
8th July 2010, 02:24 PM
Quite right I don't object to anyone indulging themselves in it,others can listen to it till their eyes bubble if they choose.I object to rap and hip-hop being classed as forms of music,that's all.

I think your attitude is petty.

Philosaur
8th July 2010, 02:24 PM
We can talk about music in an information theoretic sense.

Let me explain - roughly speaking, we can describe the complexity of data by how compressible it is. A series of 3 million ones in a row would take 3 million words to write out fully, or I can compress it as 1*3M - 4 words. That massive compression tells us there is actually very real data there.

On to music. Say I sing "mary had a little lamb" off key. That can be compressed tightly for several reasons - the words are simple, the rhymes are simple, phrases are repeated, the tune only covers a few notes (it was the very first song taught to me when I learned to play clarinet in school - that should tell you something), and it is short. The compression ratio is high, and the complexity of the song (I'm sure all of you will admit) is low. Compare this to say, trying to compress a Wagner opera. You are not going to get very far there.

I think there is more to music than compressibility, of course! But, in large measure, that is what we are talking about when we talk about quality in music. It is varied, it is new, the harmonic structures are varied, the instrumentation is layered and detailed, etc. Yes, there are exceptions, I did say 'in large measure'. The important point follows....

I don't listen to much rap, hence, it all sounds largely the same to me. I'm sure a rap aficionado would say the same about the baroque music I listen to ("elevator music") . Our respective ignorance of the other's music choice allows us to compress the data highly, thus attributing it very low scores on quality, innovativeness, artist skill, etc. "It all sounds the same to me" is code for "I can compress this into 3 bits, thus, it's nearly empty content-wise".

I would hazard a guess the average rap song is less complex (from an information theortic point of view) than the average Bach piece of the same length. I somehow doubt it is less complex than whatever Spears or whoever is on the top 10 this week is churning out.

I know I for one could never give a credible rap performance. And I'm talking about rehearsing for weeks, not an extemporaneous performance where the words and rhymes are created in reaction to all the things happening during the performance.

Nicely done.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 02:25 PM
I would hazard a guess the average rap song is less complex (from an information theortic point of view) than the average Bach piece of the same length.

What about the information contained in a double-entendre, a pun, or other play on words? What about the acoustically pleasing nature of a polysallabic rhyme that is maintained for 16 bars? Or what about complex rhyme patterns? e.g. rhyming different syllables within the same bar over different beats then switching it? What about novel ways of bridging from a verse into a chorus? These are among the most complex elements of rap music, yet since you don't listen to rap, you may be unaware of them. There are whole levels of complexity and information that is contained in rap that are barely present in other forms of music.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 02:25 PM
Ah, Cannibal Corpse. funny band. I never could get into that sort of screaming death metal.I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Death Metal is not music. It is a form of screaming set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the screams of teenaged rock groupies are music.Edited for sake of irony. Rap isn't music because according to you "it's just spoken word poetry set to a beat" but the unmelodic high pitched shrieks/low growls of death metal doesn't deprive it of its musichood?

People hate all kinds of music for all kinds of reasons, but you rarely hear as much vitriolic animosity to any other form of music as you hear directed at rap.

Honestly, I think that rap is singled out for censure so much partly because it's black music.

I think it's partly a manifestation of racism.

This is of course not to say that anyone that hates rap music hates it because they are racist.In some instances that might be true but generally speaking I feel it's a generational divide. Though I did once argue with a youtube racist (good times) who claimed "rap is garbage and anyone who listens to it is worthless" and argued that all black music was simple. According to him "blues requires no talent".

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 02:27 PM
generational

Partly, sure. But like I say, you don't really hear people get as mad at other 'young' music. Or maybe you do. Who knows.

dirtywick
8th July 2010, 02:28 PM
Partly, sure. But like I say, you don't really hear people get as mad at other 'young' music. Or maybe you do. Who knows.

Pop has been around a lot longer than rap. If anyone actually liked techno you'd probably hear people excluding it from music too.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 02:30 PM
Pop has been around a lot longer than rap. If anyone actually liked techno you'd probably hear people excluding it from music too.

I'm okay with some techno.

It's 100% definitely music.

dirtywick
8th July 2010, 02:34 PM
I'm okay with some techno.

It's 100% definitely music.

Just hyperbole. It's not heard much by people so nobody complains. Rap, on the other hand...well I saw Jay-Z on SNL.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 02:35 PM
I like to pronounce 'hyperbole' as 'hyperbowl'.

Try it out some time.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 02:46 PM
Partly, sure. But like I say, you don't really hear people get as mad at other 'young' music. Or maybe you do. Who knows.Well I'm aware that someone who who grew up on hip-hop will likely find some rock and metal grating and unpleasing to the ear. And those who grew up on rock and metal will find hip-hop to be unappealing due to it's relative simplicity. So those who grew up when hip-hop was in it's infancy wont embrace it or find it appealing.

It's true that you don't find such a curious aggressive opposition to other genres of "young music". Possibly because hip-hop is so omnipresent and not on the fringes of entertainment as well as being fairly new (see: the initial reactions to Jazz that Gazpacho posted).

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 02:55 PM
Jazz

Also originally Afro-American.

roger
8th July 2010, 03:05 PM
What about the information contained in a double-entendre, a pun, or other play on words? What about the acoustically pleasing nature of a polysallabic rhyme that is maintained for 16 bars? Or what about complex rhyme patterns? e.g. rhyming different syllables within the same bar over different beats then switching it? What about novel ways of bridging from a verse into a chorus? These are among the most complex elements of rap music, yet since you don't listen to rap, you may be unaware of them. There are whole levels of complexity and information that is contained in rap that are barely present in other forms of music.I absolutely agree, hence the "hazard a guess". That was not a sarcastic comment, it was an honest appraisal of my lack of knowledge of the genre. The whole point of the post was to point out that if we don't recognize the complexity in something, we may unfairly devalue it.

Bach is extremely complex, however. Break your brains complex. I adore things like Jazz, but I would put Bach on top on an information theoretic point of view, so I'm not slagging rap when I give the nod to Bach.I would put Bach on top of any classical composer on this basis. And, I'm taking into account what is present and not present - Bach doesn't do key changes like Brahms does (Brahms is more complex in this regard). Nonetheless, in total, it's no contest. Back quotes himself, does inversions on melodies, plays the same rhythm and melody on top of each other separated by several measures or beats, he alters those, then he'll play a melody backwards, or upside down (literally turn the sheet music upside down), add variations, play several different melodies at once, etc., etc., etc. Plenty of people have written Bach-like pieces. None to my knowledge/experience have come close to emulating him.

I suspect that if I really tried in a few days I could come up with a rhyme that might have you saying "is that Snoop?" Or, if not, me, about 100 rappers from the East side alone could do it . In contrast, I could spend my life trying to sound like Shakespeare, and utterly fail (that I'm very sure on). If so, again, I'd assert that Shakespeare is better (for my measure of 'better'). If I'm wrong, and Snoop is equally uncopyable, then I'd absolutely agree he's the equal of Shakespeare, even if he is using language in completely different ways. I dunno, though again you can guess where my suspicions lie. Not many people in the history of all mankind are the equal of Shakespeare or Bach. A fair amount of people are the equal of a Johnny Cash or Duke Ellington (two artists I revere) on the basis of which I am comparing (ability to copy, complexity).

So, all I am saying we can roughly (very, very roughly) sort music out into degrees of complexity, but we can be fooled when we don't recognize a form of complexity. Bach and rap are more complex than a 3 yo singing 3 blind mice. That's a pretty good basis for saying Bach and rap are better than the 3yo's song. I'd expect everyone's listening habits to demonstrate that fact. But Bach vs rap when the listener doesn't listen to rap or Bach? You could easily make a mistake.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 03:26 PM
You don't consider rap to be music, but The ****** Residents are a favorite band?

Either you're trolling, or you're sadly oblivious to irony.Yea, seriously. :boggled: I just checked some of their music out....and what in the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUmMkyvIu0)? :eye-poppi Dafydd objects to rap being considered music but these guys are one of his favorite bands? Are we in the Twighlight Zone??

Also originally Afro-American. Hmm...true. You might be on to something my dear sir.

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 04:24 PM
I like to pronounce 'hyperbole' as 'hyperbowl'.

Try it out some time.
.
I've been accused of playing in the "hyberbowl" on some forums. :)

GrouchoMarxist
8th July 2010, 04:37 PM
Just a suggestion not to make sweeping generalizations that are no more apt then a statement like "heavy metal is nothing but screaming and growling into a mic".

Same here. I might not love all genres of music but I know better then to generalize about the audience or talent of those involved.

I'd say it's a more of a generational or geographical matter then race.



But I know better then that (not to imply that you like death metal dudalb. Just making a point). ;)




“If the ride is more fly, then you must buy.”

"Britney would make a better prostitute than Christina. She's thicker."

"When I'm no longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg."

Bitter Monk
8th July 2010, 04:47 PM
Believe it or not not all hip-hop is gansta rap and not all rappers are vapid materialist.

Amen. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=369Mxzg-Ty8

Checkmite
8th July 2010, 05:00 PM
Feel free to point out the screaming here:
8Pjh0visgJI


Feel free to point out the promotion of gang activity, violence toward women, and killing of police officers here:

XJHtCG5wqYs

ThatSoundAgain
8th July 2010, 05:01 PM
Yea, seriously. :boggled: I just checked some of their music out....and what in the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUmMkyvIu0)? :eye-poppi Dafydd objects to rap being considered music but these guys are one of his favorite bands? Are we in the Twighlight Zone??

The residents are an experimental rock band. They've also been enormously influential, and have pioneered the use of interactive media. Like I pointed out (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6106765&postcount=88), they are also sometimes musically not too far from some rap.

In some of their projects, the goal has seemingly been deconstruction of popular music. Like playing whole concerts of Stones songs that don't rock in any conventional manner, or Third Reich and Roll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsjvlGyrO4c), where they're pointing out that mass conformity on the scale of chart music is just short of fascism. That's how I hear it anyway.

All in all, it's surprising that someone who gave the Residents a chance is so dismissive of a whole form of music. And this trying to make the category "music I don't like" into the category "not music" gets old fast, from any sides of the multiple fences.

Really, why bother making such silly assertions when we could be discussing the various merits of artists and pieces?

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 05:23 PM
I absolutely agree, hence the "hazard a guess". That was not a sarcastic comment, it was an honest appraisal of my lack of knowledge of the genre.

Didn't think it was sarcastic either.


The whole point of the post was to point out that if we don't recognize the complexity in something, we may unfairly devalue it.

Well, point made then I guess :P

I liked Bach when I was a kid. More into Beethoven and Prokofiev actually but like teh Bach organ music and stuff I really liked. but I never realised how complex it was (as per your below)

I went with my girlfriend to this mozart concert at the NAC the other day (few months back) and it was half a history/biography of Mozart, interspersed with snippets of his music, and then the second half was a concerto or symphony or whatever. It was great- really helped me appreciate the music on a whole new level.





Bach is extremely complex

Cool thank you for pointing that stuff out, I never knew any of that. I hope I helped you understand a bit about why rap may not be as simplistic as you might first assume if you're looking for melodic progression and harmonisation.


So, all I am saying we can roughly (very, very roughly) sort music out into degrees of complexity,

Great, but does complex necessarily equal good? For example, I like the Voice of Fire painting at the national gallery. It's insanely simple-a vertical red stripe on a big blue background. Not comlex at all. But when I went and looked at it, I found I couldn't look away. Something about it just drew me in, commanded my attention... Godo art! My aunt did a painting of an elephant, which is now on the wall of my parents' cottage. Vastly more complex, but nowhere near as good.

CplFerro
8th July 2010, 05:24 PM
There's an awful lot of old and white in this thread.

Anyways, responding to the OP

(assuming there was a genuine curiosity there)

Not generally having a melody (other than in the chorus, and in particular in West Coast rap), rap music depends more than most musical genres on rhythm. Waving the hand up and down, side to side, or back and forth is a way that the rappers keep their cadence and rhythm going along with the beat. You will often see this rhythmic motion extended to the shoulders, neck and even the torso.

In a battle context, the use of the hand as an autonomic metronome can be coupled with the use of one's limbs to violate the personal space of one's opponent in an effort to intimidate and dominate them.

Rap also depends intensively on the rapper being able to convey emotion through the tone of voice (again, not having the use of melody to convey emotional content.) To effectively convey certain emotions the rapper must assume the required affect in live performances and studio recordings, let alone in music videos. Many rap songs deal with aggression and / or broggadoccio, hence the often aggressive nature of the hand and arm gestures.

The use of the arm and hand as a metronome, acting device and tool of intimidation should not be confused with the use of gang signs. While some rappers are affiliated with certain street gangs, there is no one-to-one correlation between gangs and rap. Just because you see a rapper gesticulating to the beat does not mean this rapper is a gangster.

I don't ask questions unless I'm curious for the answer; thanks for the reply. I'm inclined to think there are even more complex things being said through the hand gestures, but knowing what you've said is a good clue.

Captain.Sassy
8th July 2010, 05:26 PM
I don't ask questions unless I'm curious for the answer; thanks for the reply. I'm inclined to think there are even more complex things being said through the hand gestures, but knowing what you've said is a good clue.

You may be talking about gang signs.

Show me the clip in question and perhaps I can venture a guess as to the meaning.

dudalb
8th July 2010, 05:44 PM
I suspect we have an awful lot of Ali G wannabes in this thread.

bozman
8th July 2010, 05:54 PM
In regard to the original question, I think it's a pretty obvious answer. Rap came from ghettos and gang bang culture. It's full of gang signs, trash talk and words about crime, etc... It's going to be angry because rappers ARE angry. They're usually screwed up, broken individuals. Look at how many still commit crimes and gang bang, even when they have no monetary reason to do it.

Howie Felterbush
8th July 2010, 05:58 PM
What's brown and rhymes with snoop?

Dr. Dre.

dudalb
8th July 2010, 06:24 PM
In regard to the original question, I think it's a pretty obvious answer. Rap came from ghettos and gang bang culture. It's full of gang signs, trash talk and words about crime, etc... It's going to be angry because rappers ARE angry. They're usually screwed up, broken individuals. Look at how many still commit crimes and gang bang, even when they have no monetary reason to do it.

The problem is not that they talk about the gang culture..but they glorify it. It's not a protest.
And that is one difference between certain rap artist and the people who made mob films: Last time I looked, Coppola and Scorsese never had anybody hit........

bozman
8th July 2010, 06:35 PM
The problem is not that they talk about the gang culture..but they glorify it. It's not a protest.
And that is one difference between certain rap artist and the people who made mob films: Last time I looked, Coppola and Scorsese never had anybody hit........


Agreed. That's why I said they're broken individuals. They come from the same broken and abusive homes any as other violent criminal, the only difference here is that society has caught on to rap music and given them a way into stardom.

truethat
8th July 2010, 06:58 PM
I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

I suppose you don't think drumming is music either. Oh well. My husband is a drummer.

bozman
8th July 2010, 07:25 PM
As a guitar player in a rockabilly and blues band, I know a few things about music (very few, but still). Personally, I don't like rap, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't qualify as "music." How are you defining "real" music?

Let's look at this from a theoretical perspective. All the fundamentals are there. It has pitch, rhythm, texture, harmony... What's it lacking exactly? And why is this thing its lacking so important that it automatically reduces the genre to not being music?

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 07:33 PM
The residents are an experimental rock band. They've also been enormously influential, and have pioneered the use of interactive media. Like I pointed out (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6106765&postcount=88), they are also sometimes musically not too far from some rap.

In some of their projects, the goal has seemingly been deconstruction of popular music. Like playing whole concerts of Stones songs that don't rock in any conventional manner, or Third Reich and Roll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsjvlGyrO4c), where they're pointing out that mass conformity on the scale of chart music is just short of fascism. That's how I hear it anyway.

All in all, it's surprising that someone who gave the Residents a chance is so dismissive of a whole form of music. And this trying to make the category "music I don't like" into the category "not music" gets old fast, from any sides of the multiple fences.

Really, why bother making such silly assertions when we could be discussing the various merits of artists and pieces?Yea that's what baffled me. According to him Hip-hop isn't music but one of his favorite bands creates music that shares much of the spoken word qualities that hip-hop has. Not to mention it's much more eclectic and grating to my ear then most hip-hop. No doubt an aquired taste lol.

In regard to the original question, I think it's a pretty obvious answer. Rap came from ghettos and gang bang culture. It's full of gang signs, trash talk and words about crime, etc... It's going to be angry because rappers ARE angry. They're usually screwed up, broken individuals. Look at how many still commit crimes and gang bang, even when they have no monetary reason to do it.Gang bang culture? :rolleyes: You seem to think gang banging is an integral part of hip-hop culture. It's not. Hip-hop in its day was defined by DJ'ing, break dancing, rapping and graffiti. Not gang banging or criminality.

There was nothing nefarious about the Sugar Hill Gang or the Beastie Boys. Yes hip-hop, in part, has been transformed into an outlet for chest beating machismo but it isn't as one dimensional (or revolve around "gang culture") as you seem to believe. I'd sooner call it criminal culture but only relegate it to describe gangsta rap.

The problem is not that they talk about the gang culture..but they glorify it. It's not a protest.
And that is one difference between certain rap artist and the people who made mob films: Last time I looked, Coppola and Scorsese never had anybody hit........Hip-hop is much more diverse then you're implying. Try to apply that template to an artist like Common and you'll see it wont fit. And something that's being lost on your examination is that it's entertainment. You can dissect the moral groundwork or the content behind the music but at heart it's entertainment just as Call of Duty can be viewed as glorifying war or professional wrestling glorifying fighting. At heart it's entertainment. But what you say does hold true for SOME but not all.

bozman
8th July 2010, 07:58 PM
Juniversal, I'm going to concede here and admit you might be right. I don't know enough about the facts at hand, so I'm not going to sit here and argue while pretending that I do.

That would make me a fundie.

I Ratant
8th July 2010, 08:31 PM
As a guitar player in a rockabilly and blues band, I know a few things about music (very few, but still). Personally, I don't like rap, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't qualify as "music." How are you defining "real" music?

Let's look at this from a theoretical perspective. All the fundamentals are there. It has pitch, rhythm, texture, harmony... What's it lacking exactly? And why is this thing its lacking so important that it automatically reduces the genre to not being music?
.
The lyrics.
Violence from the git-go.
That other stuff, pitch, etc, pale when contemplating the words.

GrouchoMarxist
8th July 2010, 09:11 PM
.
The lyrics.
Violence from the git-go.
That other stuff, pitch, etc, pale when contemplating the words.

Lyrics shmyrics, the theme from Hawaii Five-0 is the greatest piece of music ever written.

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 09:21 PM
The problem is not that they talk about the gang culture..but they glorify it.
The "they" you're referring to is a subset. It's not even a subset of artists, but a subset of songs within various artists' work. I'm not going to try to disown it from the genre, but it's not identical with the whole genre and never has been.

Are you even sure what you're hearing is glorification? Tupac talks about selling crack in "Changes" and you might think he's advocating it, but only if you're really inattentive. Immortal Technique has a whole song about a guy raping his own mother to join a gang, but again, you'd completely miss the point to call it glorification.

Let's see what what gets glorified in other genres:
adultery / female objectification (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Yrhv33Zb8)
drag racing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UHjG2VcRVY)
guns, running from the law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mBjG9chIFw)
alcoholism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUTf5qvS0Lo)
drug use (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYS732zyYfU)
murder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI76gO1v90)
most of the above (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCM_r7NsV7E)

And just to rub it in, here's a whole album of songs written not later than the 1700s, every one with an explicit content warning:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Bawdy-Song-Henry-Aldrich/dp/B000001Q93

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 09:25 PM
.
The lyrics.
Violence from the git-go.
That other stuff, pitch, etc, pale when contemplating the words.Are you still pushing the idea that rap is made up of nothing but violence? Bull :rule10. And I don't know what relevance your comment has to his statement. Violent lryics somehow mean it's not music? :confused: You act as if you sit quivering in shock and fear when you listen to a song with violent lyrics...

GrouchoMarxist
8th July 2010, 09:51 PM
The "they" you're referring to is a subset. It's not even a subset of artists, but a subset of songs within various artists' work. I'm not going to try to disown it from the genre, but it's not identical with the whole genre and never has been.

Are you even sure what you're hearing is glorification? Tupac talks about selling crack in "Changes" and you might think he's advocating it, but only if you're really inattentive. Immortal Technique has a whole song about a guy raping his own mother to join a gang, but again, you'd completely miss the point to call it glorification.

Let's see what what gets glorified in other genres:
adultery / female objectification (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Yrhv33Zb8)
drag racing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UHjG2VcRVY)
guns, running from the law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mBjG9chIFw)
alcoholism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUTf5qvS0Lo)
drug use (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYS732zyYfU)
murder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwI76gO1v90)
most of the above (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCM_r7NsV7E)

And just to rub it in, here's a whole album of songs written not later than the 1700s, every one with an explicit content warning:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Bawdy-Song-Henry-Aldrich/dp/B000001Q93

Hank Williams III does a great cover of Cocaine Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86QUJwnyCs).

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 09:56 PM
People hate all kinds of music for all kinds of reasons, but you rarely hear as much vitriolic animosity to any other form of music as you hear directed at rap.

Honestly, I think that rap is singled out for censure so much partly because it's black music.

I think it's partly a manifestation of racism.

This is of course not to say that anyone that hates rap music hates it because they are racist.

That explains why all white guys hate blues, also a black genre.


Oh, wait, we don't.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 09:59 PM
Edited for sake of irony. Rap isn't music because according to you "it's just spoken word poetry set to a beat" but the unmelodic high pitched shrieks/low growls of death metal doesn't deprive it of its musichood?

Funny, you just admitted that it does have melody right there.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 10:03 PM
Feel free to point out the promotion of gang activity, violence toward women, and killing of police officers here:

XJHtCG5wqYs

There isn't any. Mind you, I never said all rap had that, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 10:07 PM
Are you still pushing the idea that rap is made up of nothing but violence? Bull :rule10. And I don't know what relevance your comment has to his statement. Violent lryics somehow mean it's not music? :confused: You act as if you sit quivering in shock and fear when you listen to a song with violent lyrics...

Yeah, even I know better than that.

Anyway, it's (IMO) beyond dispute that the most violent lyrics are both from Gangsta Rap and Norwegian Black Metal.

money
8th July 2010, 10:20 PM
Wow, rarely have I seen such unabashed stupidity in this forum.

"I don't like it, so it's not music." "Also there are objectionable lyrics, and objectionable lyrics make the baby Richard Dawkins cry." "Putting a "c" in front of "rap" spells the word "crap", which is a very funny and clever way of expressing my distaste."

Look, you don't have to like it. I don't like country or emo or pop or listening to someone play the bassoon, but my dislike doesn't make it not music. To say any different is to show yourself to be a goddamn idiot.

And for the record, Dio made bad music. Some of it was awesomely bad, true. :) But it's still bad.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 10:24 PM
Wow, rarely have I seen such unabashed stupidity in this forum.

"I don't like it, so it's not music." "Also there are objectionable lyrics, and objectionable lyrics make the baby Richard Dawkins cry." "Putting a "c" in front of "rap" spells the word "crap", which is a very funny and clever way of expressing my distaste."

Look, you don't have to like it. I don't like country or emo or pop or listening to someone play the bassoon, but my dislike doesn't make it not music. To say any different is to show yourself to be a goddamn idiot.

And for the record, Dio made bad music. Some of it was awesomely bad, true. :) But it's still bad.

He also made plenty of very good music indeed.

DJQQWbr4cXM

GrouchoMarxist
8th July 2010, 10:31 PM
Here's a tune with interesting lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz2ET5K6zY0). :hypnotize

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_rock

"Psychedelic rock is a style of rock music that is inspired or influenced by psychedelic culture and attempts to replicate and enhance the mind-altering experiences of psychedelic drugs."

"Psychedelic rock bridged the transition from early blues- and folk music-based rock to progressive rock, glam rock, hard rock and as a result influenced the development of sub-genres such as heavy metal."

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 10:42 PM
That explains why all white guys hate blues, also a black genre.

Oh, wait, we don't.
I think you'll find that there was a steady reaction against blues musical forms as they moved (with various names) up through society.

Damien Evans
8th July 2010, 10:43 PM
Here's a tune with interesting lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz2ET5K6zY0). :hypnotize

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_rock

"Psychedelic rock is a style of rock music that is inspired or influenced by psychedelic culture and attempts to replicate and enhance the mind-altering experiences of psychedelic drugs."

"Psychedelic rock bridged the transition from early blues- and folk music-based rock to progressive rock, glam rock, hard rock and as a result influenced the development of sub-genres such as heavy metal."

v5_0iZQ-TuA

Who needs drugs when you have that?

Foolmewunz
8th July 2010, 10:49 PM
At least the pop music over the last four hundred years was music.As a fully qualified musician I can tell you that (c)rap and hip-hop have nothing to do with music.

Step back, this opinion requires a fully qualified musician. It's okay, ma'am, we're from the Lawrence Welk Champagne Music Orchestra. Frankly, I'd take Snoop's opinions over the lounge pianist the the Quality Inn just outside of Frog Gig, Arkansas. I have no idea of your musical abilities Dafydd, so don't take it as personal. It's a comment on the argument. (Elvis Costello love Burt Bacharach.. Go figure.)

I actually enjoy the bulk of pop music, and I can't stand (c)Rap.
Cool. So it's a personal taste thing that you're trying to make sound as if its a universal truth.

.
The celebration of extreme violence, mostly directed towards women. In all songs? By all rappers? Are you sure? Or is there perhaps a sampling that's not in that category. I guess its sort of like "all classical music glorifies war and conquest".... because of Eroica and 1812.....

Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.
They said that about Calypso.
They said something similar about R&R.
They said that about Jazz.
They said that about Minstrel.
They said that about almost all "commoner" music through history.
You're too young to be in such narrow-minded company.
I'd suggest sticking with "I don't like it". Trying to justify it on its artistic merits, e.g. "... but is it art?" is a deadly trap.


Wheee.....! I got tired of clipping. Plus - I hit the wall at "There's a lot of old and white in here." Very true except for that one little anomaly....

I'm probably the oldest, if not the whitest person in this thread. I don't have a whole lot of gang-bangers at the crib and I really don't spend my whole day listening to Rap. I do listen to quite a lot of Hip Hop, though, and I think it comes right out of the Blues/Jazz/Calypso/Reggae traditions.

Yeah, it can be edgy and stupid in its aggressive stances. But so was rock in its early years, as was jazz, and certainly as was reggae.

Foolmewunz
8th July 2010, 10:51 PM
I think you'll find that there was a steady reaction against blues musical forms as they moved (with various names) up through society.

Hey! Stop repeating me before I have a chance to say something. (Seriously..... Hadn't seen a lot of the later posts. Agree with your point, obviously.)

money
8th July 2010, 11:01 PM
He also made plenty of very good music indeed.

DJQQWbr4cXM


Meh. It's ok, I suppose. I'm glad you like it. I think of Dio like... I don't know... Whitesnake or something. It's fun to drink to when you're at a college party, but remove the beer buzz, and its pretty awful.

I could rank about a hundred hip hop songs that are better. Of course, that would just be my opinion.

money
8th July 2010, 11:06 PM
You know, what's funny is that several posters are objecting to the lyrical content in rap, yet in the "Name your 7 favorite bands" thread over in the entertainment forum, it appeared to me the most commonly listed band was Tool.

A good half of Tool's songs are about sodomy. Talk about (c)rap...

bozman
8th July 2010, 11:07 PM
I know he means though. Personally, I'm a fan of classic country music, but I hate the garbage passing for country now. It used to even make me angry. Years ago, when I tried to give modern country another chance, I remember hearing this:

"Miller time, anytime, she was lookin' pretty fine
A red light, green light, go all fired upside downtown
She was shakin' me all 'round
I was tuned in, goin' nowhere, second wind
Jonesin', droolin', feelin' good, if you would"

I got douche chills all over. The style that once gave me "Folsom Prison Blues" and guitar masters like Chet Atkins had become an asshat "American Idol" winner singing bad pop with fiddles. The lyrics made it even worse, like something an 8 year old would write. Clearly, nobody with an IQ over 80 would listen to this stuff.

Anyway, that was a while ago. I still don’t have any love for modern country. I also tend to want to dismiss it as the music that stupid people listen to. The thinking part of my brain knows it's all a matter of taste in the end though. I can accept that it exists, even if I don't like it.

kevinml
8th July 2010, 11:17 PM
I can't believe I'm delurking to post in a rap thread, but in my opinion many people who dislike "gangsta" rap music don't realize it isn't supposed to appeal to them. Barring the pop/assembly line rap that's just made to get airplay and make money, a lot of the genre is written by young men who are writing about what they know; what they grew up seeing and experiencing. That doesn't mean they're promoting it, just speaking to what they've experienced. And yes, I understand that in doing so they -may- be perpetuating the cycle.

I think lumping all rap music into this "it's bad cause they like bling bling and drugs" category is just as unfair as saying that country music promotes alcoholism. Others have pointed out that metal doesn't turn kids into devil-worshipping maniacs, and country doesn't turn kids into alcoholic farmers. I hear just as many references in country to beer/liquor as I do weed/40s in rap. By the same token, there's plenty of rap out there that doesn't talk about drugs, and plenty of country that doesn't talk about alcohol.

If you dislike the genre that's fine. I dislike the message of the music, but I don't presume to dislike music because of the personal experiences that led the person to write it.

Just the opinion of a 29 year old suburban white male who grew up listening to N.W.A and Public Enemy (and Elton John, and Metallica...) :D

On topic...a hand held up like a W means "W"est-side, a hand held up like an E means "E"ast-side, and a hand held looking like a gun pointed at you is just that.

GrouchoMarxist
8th July 2010, 11:29 PM
v5_0iZQ-TuA

Who needs drugs when you have that?

Syd Barrett.

Juniversal
8th July 2010, 11:48 PM
Funny, you just admitted that it does have melody right there.So melody is what defines music? So this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgJkzND7Jc) isn't music? And there are rap artist who have a sing songy (i.e. melodic) flow (Bone Thugs n Harmony/Do or Die). So you'd consider them music? I'd say the high pitched screams/low grows of death metal are no more melodic (actually i'd say much less so) then what you hear in your average rap song.

I can't believe I'm delurking to post in a rap thread, but in my opinion many people who dislike "gangsta" rap music don't realize it isn't supposed to appeal to them. Barring the pop/assembly line rap that's just made to get airplay and make money, a lot of the genre is written by young men who are writing about what they know; what they grew up seeing and experiencing. That doesn't mean they're promoting it, just speaking to what they've experienced. And yes, I understand that in doing so they -may- be perpetuating the cycle.

I think lumping all rap music into this "it's bad cause they like bling bling and drugs" category is just as unfair as saying that country music promotes alcoholism. Others have pointed out that metal doesn't turn kids into devil-worshipping maniacs, and country doesn't turn kids into alcoholic farmers. I hear just as many references in country to beer/liquor as I do weed/40s in rap. By the same token, there's plenty of rap out there that doesn't talk about drugs, and plenty of country that doesn't talk about alcohol.

If you dislike the genre that's fine. I dislike the message of the music, but I don't presume to dislike music because of the personal experiences that led the person to write it.

Just the opinion of a 29 year old suburban white male who grew up listening to N.W.A and Public Enemy (and Elton John, and Metallica...) :D

On topic...a hand held up like a W means "W"est-side, a hand held up like an E means "E"ast-side, and a hand held looking like a gun pointed at you is just that.Agreed with your general point. There are some who glorify it but others are more in the business of being the commentator (Nas being a perfect example).

Gazpacho
8th July 2010, 11:50 PM
Here's a classic number that involves drugs and "ho"s:

f6mQltwfP8Y

kevinml
9th July 2010, 12:32 AM
Agreed with your general point. There are some who glorify it but others are more in the business of being the commentator (Nas being a perfect example).

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Dr. Dre raps about selling drugs the way I'd rap about mowing my lawn. And personally I find that Eric B and Rakim's "Don't Sweat the Technique" is a good example of music genre crossover.

kevinml
9th July 2010, 12:33 AM
Here's a classic number that involves drugs and "ho"s:

f6mQltwfP8Y

As a smoker, I wish tobacco got me that excited.

Is there any way to quote 2 different posts in the same reply? If so, apologize for posting back to back.

Lothian
9th July 2010, 12:42 AM
Here is a book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/John-McCriricks-World-Betting-Double/dp/009177165X) by Uk star M.C. Cririck which explains all the hand signs.

Damien Evans
9th July 2010, 12:51 AM
Syd Barrett.

Nah, that's from the first Gilmour album. It does have a definite Barrett influence there though, and if what I've heard is true he did rather like his acid.

Juniversal
9th July 2010, 12:55 AM
As a smoker, I wish tobacco got me that excited.

Is there any way to quote 2 different posts in the same reply? If so, apologize for posting back to back.You see the quote symbol beside the Quote botton? When you hover over it with your mouse it says "Multi-Quote This Message". Once you click on that you want to click on whatever other post you want to quote and then push the "Quote" botton on the final post you want to quote so you can write your message.

Damien Evans
9th July 2010, 12:58 AM
So melody is what defines music? So this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njgJkzND7Jc) isn't music? And there are rap artist who have a sing songy (i.e. melodic) flow (Bone Thugs n Harmony/Do or Die). So you'd consider them music? I'd say the high pitched screams/low grows of death metal are no more melodic (actually i'd say much less so) then what you hear in your average rap song.

No. Nothing defines or doesn't define music, it's as subjective as art. some people would consider the sound a chainsaw makes to be music.

I don't consider rapping to be music, I consider it to be a style of performing poetry. The backing tracks I wouldn't dispute are music, but since I've not heard one I like I don't care.

Incidentally, that's an awesome song, who is that guy?

Juniversal
9th July 2010, 01:27 AM
No. Nothing defines or doesn't define music, it's as subjective as art. some people would consider the sound a chainsaw makes to be music.

I don't consider rapping to be music, I consider it to be a style of performing poetry. The backing tracks I wouldn't dispute are music, but since I've not heard one I like I don't care.

Incidentally, that's an awesome song, who is that guy?So you don't consider it music because you don't like it? Alriiiiggght. :boggled: Don't know where it's written that a style of performing poetry set to a beat can't be considered music but i'll attribute it to your subjective belief. And I doubt any large percentage of the population would imagine the sound of a chainsaw could be described as musical in anyway as opposed to rap.

About the percussion instrumental, honestly I have no clue who James Dooely is but he seems to be a decent composer. His track was just one of the first to come up with percussion only.

Damien Evans
9th July 2010, 01:34 AM
So you don't consider it music because you don't like it? Alriiiiggght. :boggled: Don't know where it's written that a style of performing poetry set to a beat can't be considered music but i'll attribute it to your subjective belief. And I doubt any large percentage of the population would imagine the sound of a chainsaw could be described as musical in anyway as opposed to rap.

About the percussion instrumental, honestly I have no clue who James Dooely is but he seems to be a decent composer. His track was just one of the first to come up with percussion only.

Ultimately, that's what it all boils down to for most people, no matter what pretty language or technical jargon they dress it up with.



Incidentally, I just found this band on youtube, I'm wondering if any of you can tell me what genre they are? Or if they're music:D
msRy4vcSX4k

http://metal-archives.com/ lists them as death/folk metal

GlennB
9th July 2010, 02:02 AM
Lyrics shmyrics, the theme from Hawaii Five-0 is the greatest piece of music ever written.

Not when it's 4 a.m. and the stoned-up festival goers in the next tent are playing it for the fourth time in four hours as part of their "Greatest TV theme tunes" cassette :(

The Dr WHo theme was also on that tape. I used to love that tune .....

Gazpacho
9th July 2010, 02:41 AM
As a smoker, I wish tobacco got me that excited.
I suspect it was an advertising jingle. From the 17th century. And still remembered today, which would indicate how effective it had to be.

Damien Evans
9th July 2010, 02:41 AM
Not when it's 4 a.m. and the stoned-up festival goers in the next tent are playing it for the fourth time in four hours as part of their "Greatest TV theme tunes" cassette :(

The Dr WHo theme was also on that tape. I used to love that tune .....

That sort of crap will make you hate anything.

A similar class of idiots turned me off bongo drums for a while. I don't care how good you, I don't need to be woken at 5 am by it.

ThatSoundAgain
9th July 2010, 03:25 AM
No. Nothing defines or doesn't define music, it's as subjective as art. some people would consider the sound a chainsaw makes to be music.

Found those people:

vt41Px25x54

I don't consider rapping to be music, I consider it to be a style of performing poetry. The backing tracks I wouldn't dispute are music, but since I've not heard one I like I don't care.

Would you be happy if we called it "A genre of performance communicating ideas through sound structured rhythmically, tonally, and texturally and through a verbal component"?

Really, what do we gain from calling it "not music" except the knowledge that Damien Evans doesn't like it?

BPScooter
9th July 2010, 03:32 AM
I had a small epiphany once, when a friend of mind, a "real classical" sort of musician, told me to sit my ass down and really listen all the way through. I was used to this, with a Beethoven sort of thing on my end, and what he gave me was the first big Eminem album that made such a splash a few years back. I was totally freaked, of course, but really got drawn in to the sssounds and immediately gave respect. These are not trivial or casual works of art.

Bikewer
9th July 2010, 04:35 AM
I can say pretty much categorically that I don't like rap/hip-hop. I have never heard any that I would care to listen to for more than long enough to turn it off. However, it does have musical elements and it is enormously popular....

Years ago, when I started playing (in the 70s) a still-popular form among the folkie crowd was the "talking blues". There were hundreds of these little things, some humorous, some political, some oriented to current events. Rhymed couplets spoken over a 12-bar blues figure... Not dissimilar to rap. In fact, Peter, Paul and Mary did a great take on the old "Do You Want To Get To Heaven" talking blues done over rap beat.... Funny.

I have listened to avante-gard jazz that was atonal, arhthmic, aharmonic... Sounded for all the world like you told a bunch of kids to "make noise". Is that music?

roger
9th July 2010, 08:22 AM
I have listened to avante-gard jazz that was atonal, arhthmic, aharmonic... Sounded for all the world like you told a bunch of kids to "make noise". Is that music?
Depends. I'd bet there's a lot of structure there that you didn't notice. It just wasn't the classical (jazz) structures.

A great 'pathway' drug, and one of my favorite composer/players is Andrew Hill. Take his Point of Departure and listen to the piano. You'd perhaps never guess that he was the leader. You'd think it was one of the horn players. But listen to what he is doing. Just a 'ting ....... tung ...... tonk" every second or so with tight little tone clusters. Just accents, right? No, in those clusters are the harmonic structures that everyone else is riffing off of. He's playing against time, changes time, etc. He doesn't have to 'say' all the rest because it's all implied - we've have the standard jazz changes beaten into our ears. In a sense the music is in the absences.

For me this is how a lot of the 'noise' type jazz listens. Structures can be disconnected by time, you might be listening to changes and interactions of textures rather than melody, etc.

"My kid could do that" is the great dismissal. Well, my kid could do the I-IV-V structure of most western popular music in their sleep. Really, it's the easiest thing in music. I can have you doing it in 5 minutes on guitar, a bit longer on piano. It's trivial. But, my kid or yours can't churn out an original Johnny Cash type song to save their lives. There's complexity in that their simplicity.

Likewise, any kid can make a saxophone squawk at a high rate of speed. None of them can actually make it squawk with very specific notes and sounds at 180bpm with 3 time signatures going on at once and 2 different atonal keys, while listening to what everyone else is doing and responding to it immediately.

But the listener knowing which is which? I'll grant you that is not so easy. :) And, as with all art, most of it is discard-able, second rate stuff.

Damien Evans
9th July 2010, 09:03 AM
I can say pretty much categorically that I don't like rap/hip-hop. I have never heard any that I would care to listen to for more than long enough to turn it off. However, it does have musical elements and it is enormously popular....

Years ago, when I started playing (in the 70s) a still-popular form among the folkie crowd was the "talking blues". There were hundreds of these little things, some humorous, some political, some oriented to current events. Rhymed couplets spoken over a 12-bar blues figure... Not dissimilar to rap. In fact, Peter, Paul and Mary did a great take on the old "Do You Want To Get To Heaven" talking blues done over rap beat.... Funny.

I have listened to avante-gard jazz that was atonal, arhthmic, aharmonic... Sounded for all the world like you told a bunch of kids to "make noise". Is that music?

You mean like this?

b8DtpdXZi0M

Naddig74
9th July 2010, 09:37 AM
I suppose you don't think drumming is music either. Oh well. My husband is a drummer.

What do you call someone that hangs round with musicians?

A drummer.

On the other hand;

Whats the difference between a drummer and a proctologist?

A proctologist only has to deal with one ******** at a time.

GrouchoMarxist
9th July 2010, 10:06 AM
What do Ringo's aggressive hand gestures (http://blog.cleveland.com/top_entertainment/2007/08/large_ringo.jpg) mean?

Philosaur
9th July 2010, 10:07 AM
Rap is (usually derogatory) poetry set to a beat.

I don't care if anyone likes it or not, but it isn't music.

I never said it was all crap. I said it wasn't music. Big difference.

I repeat: Rap is not music. It is a form of poetry set to a beat, but it isn't music, any more then the poems of Lord Byron are music.

I know it when I hear it.

More seriously, it's almost impossible to define what music is, since music is itself an artificial construct given to a way we make noise.

No. Nothing defines or doesn't define music, it's as subjective as art. some people would consider the sound a chainsaw makes to be music.

I don't consider rapping to be music, I consider it to be a style of performing poetry. The backing tracks I wouldn't dispute are music, but since I've not heard one I like I don't care.


What I'm really curious about is why you have such a strong opinion that rap is not music, and yet you acknowledge that music is subjective and very difficult to define. It's almost like you feel like you'd lose your "rock cred" if you admit that rap is a form of music.

Well, maybe dafydd or I Ratant would judge you unworthy of the rock mantle, but I doubt anyone else here would. And it's not like someone is going to print out your posts and run up to your bandmates to prove that you once admitted that rap is music on an Internet forum.

Is the following performance by Anthrax and Public Enemy music? Does it switch between being music and not being music depending on who's vocalizing at any given moment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBA-xi8WuCU

(Can someone tell me how to embed a YouTube video properly?)

Naddig74
9th July 2010, 11:10 AM
.

Is the following performance by Anthrax and Public Enemy music? Does it switch between being music and not being music depending on who's vocalizing at any given moment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBA-xi8WuCU


It most certainly is! That takes me back.

Seriously, beauty is in the ear of the beholder. You either like it or you don't. There's no need for drama. Save that for commenting on YouTube.

ZirconBlue
9th July 2010, 11:47 AM
I suppose you don't think drumming is music either. Oh well. My husband is a drummer.

What do you call someone that hangs around wi --

What do you call someone that hangs round with musicians?

A drummer.

Dammit!

Suddenly
9th July 2010, 11:59 AM
One thing I wonder is that if a rap song is made up partially of samples from older songs, how exactly does it stop being music?

I don't know how Lounge Against The Machine's arrangement of Snoop's "Gin and Juice" fits in here, but I felt like mentioning it.

ktesibios
9th July 2010, 01:39 PM
What do you call someone that hangs round with musicians?

A drummer.

On the other hand;

Whats the difference between a drummer and a proctologist?

A proctologist only has to deal with one ******** at a time.

How can you tell if a drum riser is level?
The drummer is drooling out of both side of his mouth

What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?
Homeless.

Howie Felterbush
9th July 2010, 02:39 PM
How do you get a drummer off your porch?

Pay for the pizza.

GrouchoMarxist
9th July 2010, 06:39 PM
I had a small epiphany once

Had you been in the pool?

Brainache
9th July 2010, 06:52 PM
Why is there no heavy metal music in Star Trek?

Because it's set in the future...

Thunder
10th July 2010, 07:48 AM
Rappers seem to be fond of using strange hand gestures, which appear rather aggressive and intimidating as they are waved about and thrust at the audience. Whatever do these gestures mean? Is there a dictionary of them?

it means they are secretly Italian and Jewish.

:p

jmcvann
10th July 2010, 09:25 AM
This was a very interesting thread. It amazes me that so many people can't understand the difference between "music" and "music they like."

GrouchoMarxist
10th July 2010, 03:35 PM
I'd love to see a hip hop version of Bohemian Rhapsody.

Snoop?

Thunderbolts and lightning
very very frightening

Seriously.

Naddig74
10th July 2010, 03:43 PM
How do you get a drummer off your porch?

Pay for the pizza.

A drummer gets pissed off with all these jokes, and decides to learn to play at least one 'proper' instrument. He goes to a music shop, and after browsing round for a bit, he makes his selections and goes to the counter.

''I want this trumpet, and that accordian.'' says Skins.

''You're a drummer aren't you?'' says the guy behind the counter. ''The drum section is down in the basement, get down there where you belong.''

''No, I've had enough of that, and wise-acres like you taking the mickey,'' says Skins, ''Now sell me this trumpet and that accordian!''

Counter guy sighs.

''Alright,'' he says, ''you can have the fire extinguisher, but the radiator stays on the wall.''

BPScooter
11th July 2010, 06:02 AM
Well, now that we know that Byron was the first rapper, we can all sleep well! And my small epiphany is just a-waiting to grow.... mercy, I might just sound like a poet or Irish person if I keep my mental dialogue active. Not that I'd be in bad company with that lot, I just think I couldn't really keep up. James Joyce as original rapper? I'd buy that contention if the beat was right.

brodski
11th July 2010, 06:05 AM
Well, now that we know that Byron was the first rapper, we can all sleep well! ... James Joyce as original rapper? I'd buy that contention if the beat was right.

or maybe someone even earlier...
Evpu_0UP4Dk

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:01 AM
So, what makes them not-music?
What makes classifying them as music objectionable?

You a need a modicum or more of talent to make music.You need no talent to rap,other than a talent for self-publicity.

MaGZ
11th July 2010, 11:04 AM
Rappers seem to be fond of using strange hand gestures, which appear rather aggressive and intimidating as they are waved about and thrust at the audience. Whatever do these gestures mean? Is there a dictionary of them?

Rappers are a primitive culture. Anthropologists should study them.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:07 AM
And yet Beefheart, as heard on Trout Mask and the Zappa collaborations, is belting furiously (or downright reciting) atop a rhythmically driven instrumental as much as he is singing in a traditional sense.

Residents, too; for example, in Semolina as performed in the recent Talking Light tour, Randy was as far from - or as close to - singing melodically, as any rapper. On top of that, they performed several spoken word pieces with soundscape backing and instrumental interludes.

Really, both bands are poor examples if you want poetry and the spoken word disallowed in music.

Full disclosure: I like Beefheart and Residents too, and to a lesser extent a very limited (as probably demonstrated by my ignorance) selection of rappers.

The Magic Band rehearsed the Trout Mask Replica album every day for eight months until they had it down pat.They needed musical talent to do that.I suppose you could call rap a form of street poetry,with a certain generosity of spirit,although I doubt that in three hundred years time the rappers of today will be quoted along with Will Shakespeare.

brodski
11th July 2010, 11:08 AM
You a need a modicum or more of talent to make music.You need no talent to rap,other than a talent for self-publicity.

Utter nonsense.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:10 AM
This was a very interesting thread. It amazes me that so many people can't understand the difference between "music" and "music they like."

No,there are forms of music which I don't like but I still recognize as forms of music.I just don't believe that rap and hip-hop belong under the heading.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:11 AM
Utter nonsense.

Anyone can rap,it's easy.No previous experience necessary.

Damien Evans
11th July 2010, 11:19 AM
Anyone can rap,it's easy.No previous experience necessary.

From painful experience, I can honestly tell you not everyone can rap, especially not some of my mates when drunk.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:22 AM
From painful experience, I can honestly tell you not everyone can rap, especially not some of my mates when drunk.

They can talk when they're sober,can't they? I can't play the guitar when I'm drunk.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 11:29 AM
And don't get me started about the way the name R and B has been stolen and applied to a genre of tuneless,watered-down soul music.Sacrilege.

Gazpacho
11th July 2010, 12:09 PM
You a need a modicum or more of talent to make music.
Have you ever listened to a hip-hop instrumental track? or are you still clinging to tired stereotypes where every rap act sounds like the Fat Boys?

Anyone can rap,it's easy.No previous experience necessary.
They can, but they can't do it well enough to move people the way Tupac could. Like pretty much any musical skill. Thanks for that astonishing revelation.

And don't get me started about the way the name R and B has been stolen
Ha ha, you thought "R&B" actually meant something rather than being a substitute for the older term "race music"

Juniversal
11th July 2010, 12:30 PM
No,there are forms of music which I don't like but I still recognize as forms of music.I just don't believe that rap and hip-hop belong under the heading.Would you consider a quasi rap/rock band like POD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEVPoo0kOa4) to be music? Or does the rap verses zap any essence of musicality it has from it? What about this old Papa Roach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0lSpNtjPM8) song? Is it music?

Anyone can rap,it's easy.No previous experience necessary.Yes and anyone can sing. But not every one can sing good. Same goes for rap.

From painful experience, I can honestly tell you not everyone can rap, especially not some of my mates when drunk.Thank you for that honest appraisal. ;)

And don't get me started about the way the name R and B has been stolen and applied to a genre of tuneless,watered-down soul music.Sacrilege.I honestly expected that you'd equally hate R&B. I was right. :D

Juniversal
11th July 2010, 12:48 PM
They can talk when they're sober,can't they? I can't play the guitar when I'm drunk.Nice try. An honest man would compare rapping to singing. Not compare rapping (or "talking" as you put it) to playing a musical instrument that requires coordination drunk. And no, rapping is not just "talking".

dafydd
11th July 2010, 03:18 PM
Have you ever listened to a hip-hop instrumental track? or are you still clinging to tired stereotypes where every rap act sounds like the Fat Boys?


They can, but they can't do it well enough to move people the way Tupac could. Like pretty much any musical skill. Thanks for that astonishing revelation.


Ha ha, you thought "R&B" actually meant something rather than being a substitute for the older term "race music"

It did mean something and the term race music was never used in Britain.It was just good music.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 03:19 PM
Nice try. An honest man would compare rapping to singing. Not compare rapping (or "talking" as you put it) to playing a musical instrument that requires coordination drunk. And no, rapping is not just "talking".

You could have fooled me.Rappers do not sing.

dafydd
11th July 2010, 03:21 PM
Would you consider a quasi rap/rock band like POD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEVPoo0kOa4) to be music? Or does the rap verses zap any essence of musicality it has from it? What about this old Papa Roach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0lSpNtjPM8) song? Is it music?

Yes and anyone can sing. But not every one can sing good. Same goes for rap.

Thank you for that honest appraisal. ;)

I honestly expected that you'd equally hate R&B. I was right. :D

Wrong,I am a big Rhythm And Blues fan.

ThatSoundAgain
11th July 2010, 04:03 PM
The Magic Band rehearsed the Trout Mask Replica album every day for eight months until they had it down pat.

And, depending on which sources you choose to believe, more or less sociopathic micro-management of the younger musicians' lives by the older Van Vliet.

They needed musical talent to do that.

No argument here. Like I said, I listen to the record often.

Incidentally, could you tell me how songs like, say, Dachau Blues, Pachuco Cadaver, Wild Life, Fallin' Ditch, Steal Softly Through Snow, Old Fart a at Play [etc.] off that album are music? They prominently feature rhythmic recital of poetry that uses inflection of voice rather than traditional melody. Some of it even (gasp) rhymes!

I suppose you could call rap a form of street poetry,with a certain generosity of spirit,although I doubt that in three hundred years time the rappers of today will be quoted along with Will Shakespeare.

Irrelevant, even if true. I won't be quoted along with anyone in just three weeks, but you wouldn't argue that what I'm doing here isn't a form of writing.

Juniversal
11th July 2010, 04:42 PM
You could have fooled me.Rappers do not sing.And singers don't rap. My point was anybody can sing drunk or sober just as anyone can rap drunk or sober. That doesn't mean it requires no talent. Your point that you can't play guitar drunk is moot.

Wrong,I am a big Rhythm And Blues fan.Let me guess. The modern music described as R&B isn't the "real" R&B and it requires no talent? :rolleyes:

And I can't help but notice you completely ignored my first question. Is Rage Against the machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY) music? P.O.D? Last Resort?

GrouchoMarxist
11th July 2010, 05:04 PM
Rappers are a primitive culture. Anthropologists should study them.


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Philosaur
12th July 2010, 10:45 AM
You a need a modicum or more of talent to make music.You need no talent to rap,other than a talent for self-publicity.

Rappers are a primitive culture. Anthropologists should study them.


Hey, dafydd, looks like you found a kindred spirit in MaGZ. Maybe you can write a treatise on how a culture's artistic output determines its value within humanity.

(You know what, painting with a broad brush is actually kinda fun! It requires no effort or precision whatsoever! Y'all should try it some time.)

Philosaur
12th July 2010, 10:48 AM
And singers don't rap. My point was anybody can sing drunk or sober just as anyone can rap drunk or sober. That doesn't mean it requires no talent. Your point that you can't play guitar drunk is moot.

Let me guess. The modern music described as R&B isn't the "real" R&B and it requires no talent? :rolleyes:

And I can't help but notice you completely ignored my first question. Is Rage Against the machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY) music? P.O.D? Last Resort?

I wouldn't bother trying to engage dafydd--he's just trolling. Otherwise he'd actually address a point rather than regurgitate the same opinion over and over.

dafydd
12th July 2010, 02:54 PM
I wouldn't bother trying to engage dafydd--he's just trolling. Otherwise he'd actually address a point rather than regurgitate the same opinion over and over.

What is there to address? I do not believe that Rap and Hip-Hop are forms of music.That's it.

dafydd
12th July 2010, 03:00 PM
Hey, dafydd, looks like you found a kindred spirit in MaGZ. Maybe you can write a treatise on how a culture's artistic output determines its value within humanity.

(You know what, painting with a broad brush is actually kinda fun! It requires no effort or precision whatsoever! Y'all should try it some time.)

I do not believe that Rappers are a primitive culture and I resent being classed with a racist like Magz.I am not interested in the culture of Rap,or itīs value to humanity.I just don`t like the noise it makes.There are many forms of music that I donīt like but I can understand why others appreciate them.I cannot understand how anyone would willingly listen to Rap and Hip/Hop.It beats me.

Nerd
12th July 2010, 03:31 PM
Actually Hip-hop is composed of four different elements: MCing (Rapping is apart of this), Break dancing, DJing, as well as graffiti. I don't find Hip-hop as a "primitive" culture; I find it incredibly artistic by nature, but of course, thats just my opinion. :D Grouping all of rap into just vulgar slang is just plain silly.

For anyone who wants a laugh, Rick Ross and Jay-Z just released a song "Freemason" in a response to people who were calling them satanic, Freemasons,
Illuminati, and whole bunch of other woo. I actually kind've like the song. :p

Region Rat
12th July 2010, 05:20 PM
For those who think that Rap has no value, I've only got 3 words for you:

"Baby got Back"


'Nuff said. I win.

Captain.Sassy
12th July 2010, 06:05 PM
I do not believe that Rappers are a primitive culture and I resent being classed with a racist like Magz.

You kinda lumped yourself in there with him with your rants, ddyaaff.


I am not interested in the culture of Rap,or itīs value to humanity.I just don`t like the noise it makes.There are many forms of music that I donīt like but I can understand why others appreciate them.I cannot understand how anyone would willingly listen to Rap and Hip/Hop.It beats me.

Fine, you don't have to like rap, but neither do you have to go on these 'rap is easy' 'rappers have no talent' tangents. I don't like opera, but I'd be retarded to say it takes no talent to be an opera singer.

Rap is music, rap takes talent. If you don't believe me, go record a rap song.

See how you do.

I defy you.

As for rap not being quoted in 300 years, maybe not, but then again, rap and rap musicians are constantly being quoted and have had and continue to have an impact on the colloquialisms used in much of American slang. You might not quote them, but that doesn't mean the untermenschen don't.

dirtywick
12th July 2010, 07:58 PM
They can talk when they're sober,can't they? I can't play the guitar when I'm drunk.

You can't do it well. Simply playing the guitar is much easier than rapping.

Checkmite
12th July 2010, 08:04 PM
There are many forms of music that I donīt like but I can understand why others appreciate them.I cannot understand how anyone would willingly listen to Rap and Hip/Hop.It beats me.

I don't understand why people who go to a museum to see a crucifix submerged in urine, or a bisected pig floating in a tank of formaldehyde; but I'm not going to insist it's "not art".

Juniversal
13th July 2010, 12:00 AM
What is there to address? I do not believe that Rap and Hip-Hop are forms of music.That's it.
I do not believe that Rappers are a primitive culture and I resent being classed with a racist like Magz.I am not interested in the culture of Rap,or itīs value to humanity.I just don`t like the noise it makes.There are many forms of music that I donīt like but I can understand why others appreciate them.I cannot understand how anyone would willingly listen to Rap and Hip/Hop.It beats me.I see you still managed to ignore my (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6114039&postcount=191) question (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6114672&postcount=197). :p And I remained baffled by the fact you like The Residents (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve0XrTiFiwo) (which honestly sound pretty bad to me...no offense to anyone that likes it. Just way too dissonant and choatic for my ear) but don't consider hip-hop to be music. So you like super dissonant/choatic and just plain weird (IMHO) talkers/singers "The Residents" but it's unconcievable to you how anyone can enjoy hip-hop/rap. :boggled: I just don't get it. *shrugs*

GrouchoMarxist
13th July 2010, 02:30 AM
I see you still managed to ignore my (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6114039&postcount=191) question (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6114672&postcount=197). :p And I remained baffled by the fact you like The Residents (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve0XrTiFiwo) (which honestly sound pretty bad to me...no offense to anyone that likes it. Just way too dissonant and choatic for my ear) but don't consider hip-hop to be music. So you like super dissonant/choatic and just plain weird (IMHO) talkers/singers "The Residents" but it's unconcievable to you how anyone can enjoy hip-hop/rap. :boggled: I just don't get it. *shrugs*


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dafydd
13th July 2010, 07:00 AM
For those who think that Rap has no value, I've only got 3 words for you:

"Baby got Back"


'Nuff said. I win.

I have no idea what you mean.Baby got back? Back to where?

dafydd
13th July 2010, 07:01 AM
I don't understand why people who go to a museum to see a crucifix submerged in urine, or a bisected pig floating in a tank of formaldehyde; but I'm not going to insist it's "not art".

It isn't art.The term for that sort of thing back in the 60's was a ''happening.''

dafydd
13th July 2010, 07:04 AM
You kinda lumped yourself in there with him with your rants, ddyaaff.



Fine, you don't have to like rap, but neither do you have to go on these 'rap is easy' 'rappers have no talent' tangents. I don't like opera, but I'd be retarded to say it takes no talent to be an opera singer.

Rap is music, rap takes talent. If you don't believe me, go record a rap song.

See how you do.

I defy you.

As for rap not being quoted in 300 years, maybe not, but then again, rap and rap musicians are constantly being quoted and have had and continue to have an impact on the colloquialisms used in much of American slang. You might not quote them, but that doesn't mean the untermenschen don't.

No such thing as untermenschen.

dafydd
13th July 2010, 07:05 AM
You can't do it well. Simply playing the guitar is much easier than rapping.

Please be serious.

Philosaur
13th July 2010, 11:58 AM
I do not believe that Rappers are a primitive culture and I resent being classed with a racist like Magz.I am not interested in the culture of Rap,or itīs value to humanity.I just don`t like the noise it makes.There are many forms of music that I donīt like but I can understand why others appreciate them.I cannot understand how anyone would willingly listen to Rap and Hip/Hop.It beats me.

Remember that part where I said that painting with a broad brush is fun? I'll wait while you go back and read it.

There.

So anyway, I was making a point by using hyperbole. I don't really think you are racist, I just think you're making idiotic snap judgments about an art form you know so little about you don't even consider it an art form.

And your back-peddling is simply dishonesty. If you want to assert that rap is not music, then stand by that assertion, maybe even provide an argument or two. If you are simply expressing an opinion about rap, then understand this:

WE GOT IT. You don't like rap. Stop repeating your opinion as if it's an argument.

Philosaur
13th July 2010, 12:03 PM
It isn't art.The term for that sort of thing back in the 60's was a ''happening.''

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art


Performance art, as the term is commonly understood, began to be identified in the 1960s with the work of artists such as Yves Klein, Allan Kaprow—who coined the term Happenings—Carolee Schneemann, Hermann Nitsch, Yoko Ono, Wolf Vostell, Joseph Beuys, Barbara T. Smith, Vito Acconci, the women associated with the Feminist Studio Workshop and the Woman's Building in Los Angeles, and Chris Burden


So you know as much about art as you do about music.

What can you tell us about dog grooming? Or maybe you want to take a stab at metallurgy? I'm sure we can all learn from your abysmal ignorance on those subjects, too.

Captain.Sassy
13th July 2010, 12:10 PM
Dafydd please sing us a rap.

Naddig74
13th July 2010, 12:29 PM
I have no idea what you mean.Baby got back? Back to where?

Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY84MRnxVzo&a=6iVm73GDUoE&playnext_from=ML)

Dafydd please sing us a rap.

Try this one. (http://forums.randi.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6120781)

dirtywick
13th July 2010, 01:25 PM
Please be serious.

Played a guitar once, sounds came out of it. True story.

Juniversal
13th July 2010, 06:36 PM
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XF2ayWcJfxo&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_detailpage&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XF2ayWcJfxo&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_detailpage&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>Yea, Seriously. :D

And I've been ignored (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6119026&postcount=208) by dafydd once again. How can I go on?? :covereyes

Foolmewunz
13th July 2010, 11:01 PM
Captain.Sassy brought up what I think is most pertinent. Opera.

If you've seen my posts in various music threads, I follow a little bit of (and in some cases, a lot of) everything. Blues, Jazz, Rock, R&B, Folk, Pop, Broadway/Show Tunes, heck - I'm even good to go on popular music in several cultures outside of the Blues/Jazz/Rock tradtional countries, e.g. France, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, China.

I cannot, though, try as I might, get into Opera. I not only cannot get into Opera singing and operas, but I cannot get into Andrea or Luciano or Placido or Enrico singing ANYTHING. I find the trained operatic voice to be a bit like hog-calling. Over-bearing and sort of pointless.

And I've tried.... believe me, I've tried. It just doesn't sit well with me.

But - I admit that that's personal taste. I don't propose that because I can't get along with it, it's not music. I think it's fairly well recognized as one of the highest forms of the art. Not to me. So, by the standards of this thread, then,....

It's settled. Neither Rap ('cuzy D doesn't like it) nor Opera ('cuz both Foolmewunz and Captain.Sassy don't like it) is real music.



Dafydd, can you give me a cutoff date or bellwether for when R&B stopped being R&B and became crap. Was it with a certain artist? When Chess Records went under? Just a gut feeling, like a day when you woke up and said, "Hey, that's not music, that's noise" ?

The great (or awful, depending on your tastes and tolerance) thing about these threads is that given enough spare time, they can go on forever. You can't legislate taste and you can't define art, so unless those who take the old "I may not know art but I know what I like" road are willing to agree that it is just about taste, no one ever wins.

Chocolate!
Vanilla!
Chocolate!
Vanilla!
Chocolate!
Vanilla!
Is not!
Is too!
I win, I got the last word in - Chocolate!
Did not - Vanilla!
Maaaaaa, Jeannie won't stop it.
She started it (whispers) vanilla!

Damien Evans
14th July 2010, 12:34 AM
What I'm really curious about is why you have such a strong opinion that rap is not music, and yet you acknowledge that music is subjective and very difficult to define. It's almost like you feel like you'd lose your "rock cred" if you admit that rap is a form of music.

Well, maybe dafydd or I Ratant would judge you unworthy of the rock mantle, but I doubt anyone else here would. And it's not like someone is going to print out your posts and run up to your bandmates to prove that you once admitted that rap is music on an Internet forum.

Is the following performance by Anthrax and Public Enemy music? Does it switch between being music and not being music depending on who's vocalizing at any given moment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBA-xi8WuCU

(Can someone tell me how to embed a YouTube video properly?)

Hmm. I think I'm going to have to change my mind and declare that, although I cannot stand listening to it, rap is music.

The act of rapping, however, I'll still say is not singing, which is kinda why they invented a different term for it in the first place I suppose.

GrouchoMarxist
14th July 2010, 12:54 AM
Yea, Seriously. :D

And I've been ignored (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6119026&postcount=208) by dafydd once again. How can I go on?? :covereyes

Light lots of candles and put on some bryan adams. It's the only way.

Juniversal
14th July 2010, 01:48 AM
Hmm. I think I'm going to have to change my mind and declare that, although I cannot stand listening to it, rap is music.

The act of rapping, however, I'll still say is not singing, which is kinda why they invented a different term for it in the first place I suppose.:shocked: We've had a breakthrough folks... *salutes Damien Evans*

Light lots of candles and put on some bryan adams. It's the only way.I'll need that to recover from neglect i've suffered from dafydd. :alc:

Philosaur
14th July 2010, 07:50 AM
Hmm. I think I'm going to have to change my mind and declare that, although I cannot stand listening to it, rap is music.

The act of rapping, however, I'll still say is not singing, which is kinda why they invented a different term for it in the first place I suppose.

This makes my day. :D And not in a "I won! I won!" kinda way...it's just good to know that participating in Internet forums might not be the complete waste of time I sometimes feel it is.

Yeah, I don't think rapping is the same as singing, but like most everything else, there are degrees in between rapping and singing. Take "Boy Named Sue" as performed by Johnny Cash: he's definitely not singing, but he's not quite rapping, either. But it's still music. (Actually, a Shel Silverstein poem set to music).

In any case, by all means--hate away! I'm not trying to convince anyone to *like* rap, just to acknowledge that it is, in fact, a form of music.

Damien Evans
14th July 2010, 08:16 AM
This makes my day. :D And not in a "I won! I won!" kinda way...it's just good to know that participating in Internet forums might not be the complete waste of time I sometimes feel it is.

Yeah, I don't think rapping is the same as singing, but like most everything else, there are degrees in between rapping and singing. Take "Boy Named Sue" as performed by Johnny Cash: he's definitely not singing, but he's not quite rapping, either. But it's still music. (Actually, a Shel Silverstein poem set to music).

In any case, by all means--hate away! I'm not trying to convince anyone to *like* rap, just to acknowledge that it is, in fact, a form of music.

A boy named Sue is the most awesome "country comedy" song I've ever heard.

Matter of fact, here it is!
M89c3hWx3RQ

I love his prison concerts.

carlitos
14th July 2010, 08:58 AM
http://www.muzu.tv/lukabloom/i-need-love-music-video/615411

An Irish folk singer covers an Ice Cube LL Cool J song.
I like this cover, and Luka Bloom in general.

....
In a recent letter to the author, Dr. Henry van Dyke says of jazz: "As I understand it, it is not music at all. It is merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion. Its fault lies not in syncopation, for that is a legitimate device when sparingly used. But 'jazz' is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity."

--Anne Shaw Faulkner, "Does Jazz Put the 'Sin' in Syncopation?", Ladies Home Journal, August 1921
Good perspective.
I think you'll find that there was a steady reaction against blues musical forms as they moved (with various names) up through society.
My parents are the whitest people I know. My mother complained about much of the music that I enjoyed as a kid, and didn't see the irony that she was forbidden to listen to the "colored radio station" as a kid. Neither she nor I appear corrupted beyond redemption.
Captain.Sassy brought up what I think is most pertinent. Opera.
Does anyone else remember the Bill Cosby spinoff show where his daughter (Lisa Bonet) goes to college? Heavy D guest appeared once, and addressed the rap 'controversy' / non-music issue, saying that the opera Carmen was just as controversial in its day. Not sure if that's true, but I liked the explanation.


Dafydd, can you give me a cutoff date or bellwether for when R&B stopped being R&B and became crap. Was it with a certain artist? When Chess Records went under? Just a gut feeling, like a day when you woke up and said, "Hey, that's not music, that's noise" ? Yup. Screamer bands clearly aren't music.

Someone upthread pointed out that the 4 elements of hip hop are emceeing, DJing, breakdancing and grafitti. Rapping is essentially the emcee / rhyming part of the music, where originally they were emceeing in front of a live crowd, trying to get the audience dancing, participating and involved. The very first raps all included exhortations to "Raise your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care" ... or ... "Say hooooo! Say ho ho!" This isn't any different from Bruce Dickinson doing football chants / responses from stage in an Iron Maiden concert, or the audience holding up lighters and singing along with pop chorus lyrics. Waving your hands to get the audience going is just natural. "Aggressive hand gestures" seem to just build on this, and really I don't expect a thread on sicilians here anytime soon. ;)

The Norseman
14th July 2010, 10:07 AM
But 'jazz' is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a willful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity.

Did anyone else start to read this to themselves in a hip-hop beat and think it'd sound pretty good?

calebprime
14th July 2010, 10:13 AM
I don't like Sicilians, or anyone, really, who thinks it's unmanly to drink milk.

Message to all milk-drinker-haters: Some people AREN'T lactose intolerant! Get over it! Some people need milk for digestion!

Besides, we won the war!

And keeping kosher! Don't get me started.

Peace
14th July 2010, 07:03 PM
Rap is crap. Would you look at that, I made a rap, and another one.

Foolmewunz
15th July 2010, 03:25 AM
Rap is crap. Would you look at that, I made a rap, and another one.

Lost it at the end there, though, didn't you?

(Note to Cole Porter - your job is safe.)

carlitos
15th July 2010, 09:13 AM
Why can't you behave?

Foolmewunz
15th July 2010, 03:22 PM
Why can't you behave?

It's all that colored devil music I listened to in New Orleans as a kid. I'm a victim of my environment.

Juniversal
15th July 2010, 04:11 PM
Rap is crap. Would you look at that, I made a rap, and another one.Don't quite your day job fella. ;)

GrouchoMarxist
16th July 2010, 12:26 AM
It might be time to begin the beguine.

dafydd
16th July 2010, 06:08 AM
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art



So you know as much about art as you do about music.

What can you tell us about dog grooming? Or maybe you want to take a stab at metallurgy? I'm sure we can all learn from your abysmal ignorance on those subjects, too.

Urinate in the direction of away.

dafydd
16th July 2010, 06:10 AM
:shocked: We've had a breakthrough folks... *salutes Damien Evans*

I'll need that to recover from neglect i've suffered from dafydd. :alc:

Sorry,I've been busy rehearsing.Music.Not a rap in sight.

dafydd
16th July 2010, 06:13 AM
Is cutting a sheep in half art?

GrouchoMarxist
16th July 2010, 06:33 AM
Is cutting a sheep in half art?

It is if you know what you're doing.

Captain.Sassy
16th July 2010, 07:05 AM
Sorry,I've been busy rehearsing.Music.Not a rap in sight.

Bro

You're a musician, yeah?

probly got mics, drum kits, etc lying around

like you said
rap is easy

you should do up a rap for the forum

since it's easy
no excuses
prove your point

Captain.Sassy
16th July 2010, 07:10 AM
It is if you know what you're doing.

There is definitely an art to cutting sheep.


In any case, some art can have more artistic merit than other art.

Same for rap.

Release Yo Delf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1CP0Q4TxIE)has more artistic merit than Get Low (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1xch9GQLaQ). Both songs are music, and both have their place IMO.

GrouchoMarxist
16th July 2010, 08:53 AM
There is definitely an art to cutting sheep.
In any case, some art can have more artistic merit than other art.

Same for rap.

Release Yo Delf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1CP0Q4TxIE)has more artistic merit than Get Low (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1xch9GQLaQ). Both songs are music, and both have their place IMO.

I tend to agree.
I think Release Yo Delf demonstrates a greater range and flexibility, while Get Low - even though it can be infectious - comes dangerously close to shooting itself in the foot at various points.

Philosaur
16th July 2010, 09:59 AM
Urinate in the direction of away.

You aren't even trying any more, are you?

Sorry,I've been busy rehearsing.Music.Not a rap in sight.

Well, here on the forum we've been making arguments. Care to join in?

Is cutting a sheep in half art?

Which axis are cutting along? If it splits the sheep into left and right halves, it's art. Top and bottom or front and back are obviously not.

Mumbles
16th July 2010, 01:47 PM
Someone upthread pointed out that the 4 elements of hip hop are emceeing, DJing, breakdancing and grafitti. Rapping is essentially the emcee / rhyming part of the music, where originally they were emceeing in front of a live crowd, trying to get the audience dancing, participating and involved. The very first raps all included exhortations to "Raise your hands in the air, and wave 'em like you just don't care" ... or ... "Say hooooo! Say ho ho!" This isn't any different from Bruce Dickinson doing football chants / responses from stage in an Iron Maiden concert, or the audience holding up lighters and singing along with pop chorus lyrics. Waving your hands to get the audience going is just natural. "Aggressive hand gestures" seem to just build on this, and really I don't expect a thread on sicilians here anytime soon. ;)

There are other elements to hand gestures, depending on the gesture. Think of, say, the "west coast" sign that sprang up in the 90s - it looks like a gang sign to some, but it's more about the feud between the coasts from back then. But yeah, the gesturing is mostly about working the crowd or keeping rhythm.

The "rap isn't music" brigade remind me of the Lost Causers saying that the south will rise again. It's obvious that rap is a form of music, so why even bother trying to say that it isn't?

Naddig74
16th July 2010, 02:43 PM
I don't like Darjeeling, therefore it isn't a form of tea.

GrouchoMarxist
16th July 2010, 02:49 PM
I don't like Darjeeling, therefore it isn't a form of tea.

I don't like tea, therefore it isn't a beverage.

carlitos
16th July 2010, 03:47 PM
I'm glad someone caught the Cole Porter reference. :)

Juniversal
16th July 2010, 04:43 PM
Bro

You're a musician, yeah?

probly got mics, drum kits, etc lying around

like you said
rap is easy

you should do up a rap for the forum

since it's easy
no excuses
prove your pointI would loooove for dafydd to demonstrate his immense rap skills to prove how "easy" it is. Hows about it dafydd?? ;)

Foolmewunz
16th July 2010, 05:29 PM
Without googling (so as to avoid sounding like a pretentious git), how long are we talking about for this partiular variant? I'm sure I wasn't in the forefront, but can recall stopping off and listening to rappers in Alphabet City in the late 70s or early 80s, so I'm sure it predates that time, as I'm a skinny white boy who didn't really make it up to the hood that often (as in "never"), so it had moved downtown by then.

I think the fact that it's held sway for such a period is telling in itself. When I first got into R&R, the popular version had only been around for five or six years (dating R&R around '55 - e.g. the explosion).

No, I'm not saying that popularity is any sort of bellwether of validity as an artform, otherwise marshmallows would be gourmet cooking. But it's held its own.

GrouchoMarxist
17th July 2010, 06:33 PM
Without googling (so as to avoid sounding like a pretentious git), how long are we talking about for this partiular variant? I'm sure I wasn't in the forefront, but can recall stopping off and listening to rappers in Alphabet City in the late 70s or early 80s, so I'm sure it predates that time, as I'm a skinny white boy who didn't really make it up to the hood that often (as in "never"), so it had moved downtown by then.

I think the fact that it's held sway for such a period is telling in itself. When I first got into R&R, the popular version had only been around for five or six years (dating R&R around '55 - e.g. the explosion).

No, I'm not saying that popularity is any sort of bellwether of validity as an artform, otherwise marshmallows would be gourmet cooking. But it's held its own.

Google "s'mores".

MikeSun5
17th July 2010, 07:18 PM
I do not believe that Rap and Hip-Hop are forms of music. I don't know enough about rap or hip-hop to make an informed decision. That's it.

Fixed that for you. ;) You're welcome.

Sorry,I've been busy rehearsing.Music.Not a rap in sight.

:rolleyes: If you were actually a real muscian, you'd know the value of R&B, rap, and hip-hop. I play guitar too, and I've been making and performing music since the early 90s. If you're serious about music at all, then even music you don't like deserves your attention. At the very least, you can learn what NOT to do. Your random dismissal of an entire musical genre clearly shows your lack of real musicianship. It also shows a pretty arrogant obliviousness, as there is plenty of musical talent present in hip-hop. For reals, dawg.


As per the OP, sometimes hand gestures are just that: hand gestures. Google "Finger Tutting." It's a form of hip-hop dance that only uses hand gestures. Some of it is way cool.