Dogs,plants and gods...OH My!

[Dancing David]

In my time I have done many an invokation of higher power and had time to reflect upon how such a higher power might view me. (There is of course the proviso that I only beleive that higher power is a perception I have generated in my mind.)

What would we be like to a higher power, having owned a dog and having spent a year pretending to be a dog at times, I have often felt that a higher power might view us as a pet.

We do all sorts of annoying things, like barking at the mail man, digging in the yard and eating feces, which our higher powers loks at and go "Why on eath did you do that?"

So while you think about god and jesus, it just makes you wonder why god would torture his pet much less his son.

[TruthSeeker]

An evangelical friend once told me that humans trying to understand god is like my cat trying to understand me. I have nothing against my cat, and the visits to the vet aren't torture and the "no, get downs" aren't cruel, but he can't understand that.

So, yes, we are all god's pets :D

p.s. he isn't my friend anymore.

[Upchurch]

But, ya know, when I admonish or praise my girls (dogs), they know for a fact that I'm there. They hear my voice. They feel my hand scratch behind their ears. They feel the leash on their collars.

I don't remember the last time God directly responded to my plea that it is time him/her to go outside and play with me.

[Keneke]

Ah, those funny humans. Always gathering in their cute little buildings and sitting and watching one person bark for an hour or more! What could their little minds be thinking?

Oh, and isn't it hilarious to see them do their extreme sports? The human just rides his bike up the the ramp and jumps straight off of it! How cute! Sometimes they hurt themselves, but they never stop.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Dancing David
In my time I have done many an invokation of higher power and had time to reflect upon how such a higher power might view me. (There is of course the proviso that I only beleive that higher power is a perception I have generated in my mind.)

What would we be like to a higher power, having owned a dog and having spent a year pretending to be a dog at times, I have often felt that a higher power might view us as a pet.

We do all sorts of annoying things, like barking at the mail man, digging in the yard and eating feces, which our higher powers loks at and go "Why on eath did you do that?"

So while you think about god and jesus, it just makes you wonder why god would torture his pet much less his son.

At the very end of your message you say "torture his pet", yet nothing in the body of the mention speaks of God torturing any of us.

Torture can mean many things I know; I'm thinking of direct actions resulting in feelings of pain. Is permitting torture the same as torturing?

Is a witness to a murder as guilty as the murderer?

We can certainly apply our legal standards to God even though, as God, he is not able to be imprisoned, except the whole business with Jesus of course. As usual, this leads to the free will question. God permits us to make imperfect choices.

-Elliot

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Is a witness to a murder as guilty as the murderer?
In most cases, no.

In a case where the witness knew of the murder beforehand, and had the power to prevent the murder with no risk to himself, then yes.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
An evangelical friend once told me that humans trying to understand god is like my cat trying to understand me. I have nothing against my cat, and the visits to the vet aren't torture and the "no, get downs" aren't cruel, but he can't understand that.

So, yes, we are all god's pets :D

p.s. he isn't my friend anymore.

The problem with his analogy is that no matter how many times my cat does things I don't like, I would never torture the animal, much less sentence it to be tortured for eternity.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by elliotfc


At the very end of your message you say "torture his pet", yet nothing in the body of the mention speaks of God torturing any of us.

Torture can mean many things I know; I'm thinking of direct actions resulting in feelings of pain. Is permitting torture the same as torturing?

Is a witness to a murder as guilty as the murderer?

We can certainly apply our legal standards to God even though, as God, he is not able to be imprisoned, except the whole business with Jesus of course. As usual, this leads to the free will question. God permits us to make imperfect choices.

-Elliot

But if God is omnipotent and created the universe then he also set up the rules, specifically the rules that say"if you do X (or fail to do Y) then you will be tortured for eternity." This makes God the torturer.

If I stick a gun to your head and demand that if you don't give me all your money I will shoot you, is it your own fault that you get shot if you fail to hand over the money? Would I be free of all blame since, after all, if you had just handed over the money I wouldn't have shot you? If the answer to these questions is no, then how is that any different than creating a place of torture (hell) and demanding that we do as he says or we will go there for eternity?

[wollery]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


But if God is omnipotent and created the universe then he also set up the rules, specifically the rules that say"if you do X (or fail to do Y) then you will be tortured for eternity." This makes God the torturer.

If I stick a gun to your head and demand that if you don't give me all your money I will shoot you, is it your own fault that you get shot if you fail to hand over the money? Would I be free of all blame since, after all, if you had just handed over the money I wouldn't have shot you? If the answer to these questions is no, then how is that any different than creating a place of torture (hell) and demanding that we do as he says or we will go there for eternity? Possibly more to the point, if God really is loving and wants everybody to go to heaven then why not just show himself and make sure that we all believe in him rather than demanding blind faith?

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


The problem with his analogy is that no matter how many times my cat does things I don't like, I would never torture the animal, much less sentence it to be tortured for eternity.

This is pretty much how I responded. My thought was that I, like god, had offered my cat a relationship. If my cat chose not to have a relationship with me, I would not punish it indefinitely especially if it is incapable of really understanding what my motives are.

[Jas]

I'm pretty sure that my cat believes I exist...but does it care?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Upchurch
But, ya know, when I admonish or praise my girls (dogs), they know for a fact that I'm there. They hear my voice. They feel my hand scratch behind their ears. They feel the leash on their collars.

I don't remember the last time God directly responded to my plea that it is time him/her to go outside and play with me.

That waas always what I considered to be the weakness of the anology, the direct feedback that knowledge of god would create.

The same applies to the god/parent and the human/child argument.

Talk about child neglect.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by elliotfc


At the very end of your message you say "torture his pet", yet nothing in the body of the mention speaks of God torturing any of us.

Torture can mean many things I know; I'm thinking of direct actions resulting in feelings of pain. Is permitting torture the same as torturing?

Is a witness to a murder as guilty as the murderer?

We can certainly apply our legal standards to God even though, as God, he is not able to be imprisoned, except the whole business with Jesus of course. As usual, this leads to the free will question. God permits us to make imperfect choices.

-Elliot

Well, Elliot I am not sure how to respond to your post, as well written as it is, it makes me want to foam at the mouth and spew flames. I try to restrain that part of myself, especialy to such a considered post.

Did God torture Jesus, it sure seems that way if you buy the 'prot-orthodox and orthodox visions of Christianity'. I understand from reading your posts that you are someone who has thought long and hard on the actual message of Jesus. I can only wish that all the Christians did so.

I feel that the whole "jesus Son of God' was a rather weak view, and not one certainly shared by all of the early followers of Jesus. The elevation of jesus to the unattainable 'God made Flesh' is a real problem for orthodox Christainity.

And I brought up the pet of god and the son of god to point out this weakness in the orthodox view(by orthodox I mean the version of christianity which is now the current standard having alot to do with the vision and establishment of the mainstream version about 400 CE.), god is all powerful and all knowledgeble and sets out from the start to have jesus be tortured upon the cross. In some early christianity this was not followed by the physical resurection of jesus.

So the whole torture your dog , so he can be raised from the dead and lead all other dogs to salvation. Seems to be a really mistaken notion of a religion.

From my experience I feel that modern pet owner would go out of thier way to prevent thier child from being tortured.



... Is permitting torture the same as torturing?...



Well in my book if one has the power to prevent that torture, why yes it is! So if god had the power to prevent the torture of jesus, and yes having to hang on a cross and die by suffocation or use your pierced extremities to prevent that suffocation is torture. That is why the Romans used that method, to make the victim suffer a great long while, it is very cruel that the crucified person must pull themselves up by thier arms and push up with thier feet if they chose to live. It was considered a mercy to break the arms of the victim to hasten thier death.

So yes if god had foreknowledge that jesus was to be crucified and had the power to prevent the crucifixtion of jesus, then god did torture or allow jesus to be tortured.

Sorry, but that is just the way that I see it.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by wollery
Possibly more to the point, if God really is loving and wants everybody to go to heaven then why not just show himself and make sure that we all believe in him rather than demanding blind faith?

BINGO!

[Riddick]

Originally posted by wollery
Possibly more to the point, if God really is loving and wants everybody to go to heaven then why not just show himself and make sure that we all believe in him rather than demanding blind faith?
i think i can actually respond to this one. yes, god did show himself for 33years. and in several other occurences. but that counts for nothing now. unfortunately, god isn't going to have Q&A at the university of nebraska. it would be much simpler if he would. with david copperfield like presentations. but i have a feeling he's not a "showboater," at least not anymore.

i can see how you high intelligence types would get sort of nasty at the thought of god.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Ummm....so the same God who appeared as a moving pillar of fire, who bombed two entire cities with brimstone from the skies, who turned rivers to blood and held the sun still, decides to get his own son killed and then stop with the showboating? Why the sudden change of heart?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Riddick

i think i can actually respond to this one. yes, god did show himself for 33years. and in several other occurences. but that counts for nothing now. unfortunately, god isn't going to have Q&A at the university of nebraska. it would be much simpler if he would. with david copperfield like presentations. but i have a feeling he's not a "showboater," at least not anymore.

i can see how you high intelligence types would get sort of nasty at the thought of god.

I can see how you high minded Xians just ignore very other incarnation of diety and shut your eyes to them, there are plenty of dying god's and miracle workers. There are as many religous texts as there are cultures to produce them.

Ever here of Inanna?

How about Appolonius of Tyana?

The only reason that you think Xianity is historical is because that is what you were taught, there is more veidence for the existance of Santa Claus than jesus(and the Easter Bunny too).

Yeah god not a showboater, he destroyed Soddom and Gomorah for what?

He told the Hebrai to kill all the Ca'anites for what reason?

Oh, thats right , stopping the sun and moon in the sky, that is not any 'show off', much less doing the undoable and bringing someone back from the dead!

(Which Jeusus is not the only one to do, this is rather common in dieties)

[wollery]

Originally posted by Riddick

i think i can actually respond to this one. yes, god did show himself for 33years. and in several other occurences. but that counts for nothing now. unfortunately, god isn't going to have Q&A at the university of nebraska. it would be much simpler if he would. with david copperfield like presentations. but i have a feeling he's not a "showboater," at least not anymore.

i can see how you high intelligence types would get sort of nasty at the thought of god. I'm not getting nasty, merely asking a pertinent question based on the premises of christianity;
God is good,
God is forgiving,
God is omnipotent,
God wants everyone to go to heaven,
God requires that you believe in his existence during your earthly life!
This last codicil condemns huge swathes of humanity to eternal damnation just for believing the wrong thing, which him upstairs could easily remedy by revealing himself.

So why doesn't he?

Edit to add - Are you implying that christians are low intelligence types?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by wollery

-
.......by revealing himself.

So why doesn't he?

-


Why is it that there is not better proof that there is a god?
The only proof I see is that if 'god' invented the universe were really into the details. The material universe contains a depth and consistancy in the structure of the details which is rather amazing. So if there was an intelligent design for the universe, it was more about the nature of the details that lead to the known universe. The whole system is so large that if there was an intelligent design to the thing it is not apparent to view. If it is an illusion the depth of the universe is so vast that I find it hard not to believe that if there was a god they were absorbed into the creation of the universe.
It would seem that god was much more interested in the isotropy of the universe. Why are there all those galaxies and energy particles out there?
And no Invisible Pink Elephants at the Center of the Earth(TM) which made everything look like it was real but really it is all just fake. If I was a IPECOE then I would put like a Sign for All To See. I would hide it in the structure of iron so there would be like this message that would appear in the crystalography of iron. It would be there just to mess with all the materialists searching for meaning to the universe, this one inconsistant glitch in the iron crystals that would only be apparent to technologies which discovered x-ray crystalography, and it would be like this glitch in the system that spells out some sort of message in hunks of iron, one that just says:
"Ha ha ha, we at IPECOE are here just to mess with you!", it would be like this real apparent glitch in the system that would say, here is the trademark key to the universe. This operating system for the universe is the the one that IPECOE used to implement the universe and it is our system. All users of the system are subject to the patents used in the process of construction, all users owe fees to IPECOE for maintenence of the universe.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by wollery
I'm not getting nasty, merely asking a pertinent question based on the premises of christianity;
God is good,
God is forgiving,
God is omnipotent,
God wants everyone to go to heaven,
God requires that you believe in his existence during your earthly life!
This last codicil condemns huge swathes of humanity to eternal damnation just for believing the wrong thing, which him upstairs could easily remedy by revealing himself.

So why doesn't he?

Edit to add - Are you implying that christians are low intelligence types?
he did reveal himself, as jesus. and he revealed his god form to moses - at least his backside. because he said no man can look upon his face and live. so he allowed moses to see him as he passed by, from the back. and so he has a large following from his revelations.

there are intelligent christians, such as:
michaelangelo
galileo galilee
isaac newton (buried at westminster abbey)
blaise pascal
leonardo da vinci (only converted when he was near death)
and apparently stephen hawking has kicked about the idea of god existing.
einstein was jewish, although he did not believe in god, i hear

so we have some of earth's most brilliant minds who were christian. and i'm sure your run of the mill christians have their fare share of high intelligence types. although the greater balance is probably the do what you're told mentality.

i would guess that high-intelligence is more of a questioning, self-sufficient existence. i would hope one could accept that there is a higher being than they are. but it appears not to be the case. it appears they think christianity a shark cage, where one is safely protected by the bars on the cage, and limited. but they feel they cannot swim with the sharks of the oceans, freely. like it would somehow hamper their thinking if they were christian.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Riddick

he did reveal himself, as jesus. and he revealed his god form to moses - at least his backside. because he said no man can look upon his face and live. so he allowed moses to see him as he passed by, from the back. and so he has a large following from his revelations.

there are intelligent christians, such as:
michaelangelo
galileo galilee
isaac newton (buried at westminster abbey)
blaise pascal
leonardo da vinci (only converted when he was near death)
and apparently stephen hawking has kicked about the idea of god existing.
einstein was jewish, although he did not believe in god, i hear



I suppose this mean you aren't going to answer the questions? Why demand our blind faith when there is only the evidence of a set of people with a really good track record of lying , saying to believe them.

And what about the followers of innana and Ashtoreth, there is just as much proof that thier dietes became manifest as there is for Jesus. the bible is not a history lesson, it is a fable, that is why the proto church fought hard to squash any dissent. You are buying the message after two thousand years of editing. It is not the message that jesus gave.

Can you answer the questions?



so we have some of earth's most brilliant minds who were christian. and i'm sure your run of the mill christians have their fare share of high intelligence types. although the greater balance is probably the do what you're told mentality.

i would guess that high-intelligence is more of a questioning, self-sufficient existence. i would hope one could accept that there is a higher being than they are. but it appears not to be the case. it appears they think christianity a shark cage, where one is safely protected by the bars on the cage, and limited. but they feel they cannot swim with the sharks of the oceans, freely. like it would somehow hamper their thinking if they were christian.

And there are alot of brilliant mins that don't believe in god. And an awaful lot of god people who dont.

Why come to a sceptics board? Just so you can sneer down your nose at the unbeleivers? Rather typical you follow the church , you are farther from jesus than ever. Follow jesus, turn your back on the church.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas

In most cases, no.

In a case where the witness knew of the murder beforehand, and had the power to prevent the murder with no risk to himself, then yes.

Valid points. As a Christian I know that God was willing to himself submit to being killed. Allowing evil to happen is part of the divine plan, no Christian can deny that.

As for the risk to himself deal, God isn't afraid of that (i.e. Jesus). He solved the murders you mention in his own way. Not by wishing them away, but by transforming them. Divine justice differs from our justice; I differ from you in that I have faith in that justice.

Again, humans have free will. That means they have free will. You are advocating taking that free will away in some instances (murder), or, you are advocating divine interventions in order to stop all instances of murder. Those are actions that God does not take. I believe that is because he values the free will of his creatures. With immortal souls, murder is not the end of existence.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


But if God is omnipotent and created the universe then he also set up the rules, specifically the rules that say"if you do X (or fail to do Y) then you will be tortured for eternity." This makes God the torturer.

If I stick a gun to your head and demand that if you don't give me all your money I will shoot you, is it your own fault that you get shot if you fail to hand over the money? Would I be free of all blame since, after all, if you had just handed over the money I wouldn't have shot you? If the answer to these questions is no, then how is that any different than creating a place of torture (hell) and demanding that we do as he says or we will go there for eternity?

I believe the "torture" business is an analogy. The true torturing is self-torturing; that is Hell, and God will allow people to torture themselves. I can see why analogies of torture exist to get the point of Hell across, but my conception of Hell is distinct from them. Self-torture may be *rationalized* by a person in Hell as the torture coming from without. God knows you'd have to rationalize Hell if that was your eternal state.

If you stick a gun to my head, it is your fault if you pull the trigger, regardless of what I say or don't say to you.

I don't believe that Hell is a place of torture, although analogies of that exist and people in the condition of Hell may very well rationalize it as a place of torture.

The demand you mention is unconditional capitulation. Anything less, and God cuts us off from grace competely. What that cutting off actually means (Hell) can be debated, but I don't know if it is vital to fixate on the details of Hell, as opposed to the reality of Hell.

-Elliot

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Riddick
he did reveal himself, as jesus. and he revealed his god form to moses - at least his backside. because he said no man can look upon his face and live. so he allowed moses to see him as he passed by, from the back. and so he has a large following from his revelations.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, you are asking me to believe quite a bit.

Nothing is known about the life of Jesus, yet you claim he was God.

Then you claim Moses existed (and furthermore that the story of Moses and God written in the bible is historically accurate).

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. You might as well ask me to take Homer's Odyssey home with me and read it as Gospel.

God has not revealed himself, one plausible explanation is that there exists nothing to reveal. It seems if we are going to take Romans 1:20 credence whatsoever, it appears the universe is utterly indistinguishable from a universe driven by purely natural forces. So, it seems the stories of the bible are allegorical (unless you have actual reasoning for belief in the existence of Sampson and Delilah), and by the bible's advice we conclude either 1. A deistic concept of God is accurate (which for all intents and purposes, a god who says "let there be a bang" then abandons the creation is quite an atheistic concept), 2. God is no different than the universe (which again, the scientific pantheism is an atheistic concept), or 3. God does not exist.

Looks like atheists are in the clear (or if they are not, then the god you worship is an absolutely evil god).

there are intelligent christians, such as:
michaelangelo
galileo galilee
isaac newton (buried at westminster abbey)
blaise pascal
leonardo da vinci (only converted when he was near death)
and apparently stephen hawking has kicked about the idea of god existing.
einstein was jewish, although he did not believe in god, i hear

so we have some of earth's most brilliant minds who were christian. and i'm sure your run of the mill christians have their fare share of high intelligence types. although the greater balance is probably the do what you're told mentality.

i would guess that high-intelligence is more of a questioning, self-sufficient existence. i would hope one could accept that there is a higher being than they are. but it appears not to be the case. it appears they think christianity a shark cage, where one is safely protected by the bars on the cage, and limited. but they feel they cannot swim with the sharks of the oceans, freely. like it would somehow hamper their thinking if they were christian.
Ok, I did not want to ask this earlier, but I cant make up my mind: Are performing a clever parody of "worst Christian apologest EVA!" or something?

[Riddick]

you deny the dead sea scrolls

so its like i'm arguing with a bunch of 5 year olds here.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Riddick
you deny the dead sea scrolls
Here, read about the stories written in the Dead Sea Scrolls, you can start with The Descent of Sophia (http://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/homily_Descent.htm).

How about a nice introduction to The Life of Adam and Eve (http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/adamnev.htm), one you've never heard before.

so its like i'm arguing with a bunch of 5 year olds here.
Riddick,

If you beliefs have any credence whatsoever, you ought to be able to present a pretty good case for them.

Your sarcastic comments dont do much in the way of convincing folks like me.

I am a bright person, well educated, now I invite you to destroy my beliefs.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Again, humans have free will. That means they have free will. You are advocating taking that free will away in some instances (murder), or, you are advocating divine interventions in order to stop all instances of murder. Those are actions that God does not take. I believe that is because he values the free will of his creatures. With immortal souls, murder is not the end of existence.
I believe Pahansiri has asked a similar question in other places, but: why does God seem to respect the free will of murderers (and other scum) over that of victims?

Also, if God has such respect for free will, and wouldn't want to impede it, and we are to try our best to model ourselves after him, why should any human being ever try to prevent a crime?

In truth, I am advocating neither the abdication of free will or divine intervention. I am advocating that God take omnibenevolent out of his job description.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Riddick
you deny the dead sea scrolls

so its like i'm arguing with a bunch of 5 year olds here.

Only because you debate like a five year old! Only weak apologists resort to insults.

The dead sea scrolls present the traditional books of the bible from a different point of view than the traditional ones. There is also one that talks about a living messiah, before the time of jesus and one that talks about treasure. They are frequently cited as being the same as the traditional OT which they are not.

Did you know that there are books of the teachings of the buddha that were written long before jesus. And that the Vedas were composed long before your date for the tower of babel.

What about the books that didn't make it into the new testament? Why did they leave out the books of mary and phillip. They were divinely inspired as well.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I believe the "torture" business is an analogy. The true torturing is self-torturing; that is Hell, and God will allow people to torture themselves. I can see why analogies of torture exist to get the point of Hell across, but my conception of Hell is distinct from them. Self-torture may be *rationalized* by a person in Hell as the torture coming from without. God knows you'd have to rationalize Hell if that was your eternal state.

If you stick a gun to my head, it is your fault if you pull the trigger, regardless of what I say or don't say to you.

I don't believe that Hell is a place of torture, although analogies of that exist and people in the condition of Hell may very well rationalize it as a place of torture.

The demand you mention is unconditional capitulation. Anything less, and God cuts us off from grace competely. What that cutting off actually means (Hell) can be debated, but I don't know if it is vital to fixate on the details of Hell, as opposed to the reality of Hell.

-Elliot

Elliot, I understand that you have a deply held belief about jesus. But there is no excuse for evil, evil has no purpose.

the world is full of real torture, everyday humans abusr all sorts of animals and inflict all sorts of suffering. Why would a designed universe allow for that?

The gnostic solution is that the demiurgos(yhvh) is not the god of jesus.

You fortunately have a vision of xianity that fell far from the church, in that you sem to beleieve that believe in jesus is not needed for salvation, and that people who do not confess christ are not condemned to hell.

However a created universe either has a god who doesn't care (IE they set it up and let it go) or a god who is sadistic.

[wollery]

Originally posted by Riddick
i can see how you high intelligence types would get sort of nasty at the thought of god. Originally posted by Wollery
Are you implying that christians are low intelligence types?My quote (above) was in response to the final sentence of your post (also quoted above), as it seemed a very curious form of words to use, particularly from someone who does believe in God.

I have known many very intelligent people who believed in a god of one kind or another (some of them believed in several gods). It was your words which seemed to imply that you believed there to be some sort of intelligence/belief segregation.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Riddick
you deny the dead sea scrolls

so its like i'm arguing with a bunch of 5 year olds here.
You have yet to state what you think the dead sea scrolls prove or how they prove it.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I believe the "torture" business is an analogy. The true torturing is self-torturing; that is Hell, and God will allow people to torture themselves. I can see why analogies of torture exist to get the point of Hell across, but my conception of Hell is distinct from them. Self-torture may be *rationalized* by a person in Hell as the torture coming from without. God knows you'd have to rationalize Hell if that was your eternal state.

Self torture isn't the image I got when I read the bible. Being tossed into a lake of fire doesn't sound like self torture to me. Even if I were to accept your definition, there is still the fact that if the God of the Bible exists, he set up the universe in such a way that the vast, vast majority of his human crations are going to be miserable for eternity. I cannot accpet that as the act of a being that loves his creations, it sounds more like a young boy pulling the wings off of flies

If you stick a gun to my head, it is your fault if you pull the trigger, regardless of what I say or don't say to you.

I agree 100%. It is, in fact, my point.

I don't believe that Hell is a place of torture, although analogies of that exist and people in the condition of Hell may very well rationalize it as a place of torture.

The demand you mention is unconditional capitulation. Anything less, and God cuts us off from grace competely. What that cutting off actually means (Hell) can be debated, but I don't know if it is vital to fixate on the details of Hell, as opposed to the reality of Hell.

-Elliot

Fair enough. I agree the existance of Hell (and of God) is the bigger question. I see nothing to lead me to conclude that either one exists, so I won't worry about it.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Here, read about the stories written in the Dead Sea Scrolls, you can start with The Descent of Sophia (http://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/homily_Descent.htm).

How about a nice introduction to The Life of Adam and Eve (http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/adamnev.htm), one you've never heard before.

Don't forget the Book(s) of Enoch!

Anyhow so there are pseudepigrapha. We've known about pseudepigrapha for centuries, no biggie. At some point the books were whittled down for theological reasons.


-Elliot

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Don't forget the Book(s) of Enoch!

Anyhow so there are pseudepigrapha. We've known about pseudepigrapha for centuries, no biggie. At some point the books were whittled down for theological reasons.


-Elliot

Thats a nice thought from a nice person, they were whittled down for political reasons that had a lot to do with the internal struggle in the early church. And just like the supression of the Franciscan, it was bloody at times.

So if they are all divinely inspired why is one divine scriture and the other pseudepigraphia, the people who recorded them felt they were holy scripture.