Mental illness and 9/11

[Seymour Butz]

Some Scottish guy posted an awesome thread over at the ATS loony bin. He is promoting the banning of those with admitted mental illness, since it is being arged that places like that only re-inforce their delusional thinking.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread595425/pg1

Some not so shockers: 3 moderators have a diagnosed mental illness - hear voices, schrizophrenia.



And a right on the money post about twoofs and their mental illness on page 5:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread595425/pg5#pid9259507

"When it comes to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I have to wonder if some of ATS's visitors are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress. Other words, our society and way of life changed so dramatically and uncontrollably, so many-many people created the ultimate of ultimate conspiracies. Why? Because it gives them some sort of control. Since an uncontrollable entity (Terrorists) were able to break into a secure society (US), people felt very insecure by the lack of control our country actually had. So, they created this elaborate conspiracy, which make them feel as if 'control' can be regained. What does not help with this issue is that we are actually loosing the war, so overall morality has hit this all time darkish low."


Looks like Gravy was right on the money about not engaging the obviously mentally ill....

[T.A.M.]

There is much, MUCH, that has already been posted on this forum, about this topic, but I will say...

I have no doubt that the percentage of mentally ill that become "truthers" is much higher then those who become fascinated with global warming, starving in Darfur, or some other publicized issue.

THe suggestion that an all powerful, mean and evil NWO could have plotted it and carried out, feeds directly into their paranoia.

TAM:)

[Seymour Butz]

I was most interested in the point that the OP made about banning the admittedly mentally ill.

And then wondering if those that DON'T admit to it, like Chris7, Ace Baker, etc, should be ignored. Gravy had it right, I think, on this issue, when he refused to engage with those lunatics.

Others, like Redibis, BillSmith, are just trolls that are well aware of just how stupid their claims are. So they serve the purpose that JREF was started for: they provide the erroneous claims that can be debunked. There is nothing wrong with feeding an obvious troll when they serve as the source of the stupidity that can be debunked.

Just avoid the obviously mentally ill, is all I'm saying.....

[T.A.M.]

I was most interested in the point that the OP made about banning the admittedly mentally ill.

And then wondering if those that DON'T admit to it, like Chris7, Ace Baker, etc, should be ignored. Gravy had it right, I think, on this issue, when he refused to engage with those lunatics.

Others, like Redibis, BillSmith, are just trolls that are well aware of just how stupid their claims are. So they serve the purpose that JREF was started for: they provide the erroneous claims that can be debunked. There is nothing wrong with feeding an obvious troll when they serve as the source of the stupidity that can be debunked.

Just avoid the obviously mentally ill, is all I'm saying.....

I agree, but it is hard to make a diagnosis of such without a proper history and exam, and a proper professional (like mine) opinion after all that. As well, in additionto mood disorders, schizophrenia, there are the personality disorders which are hard to dx, and harder to treat.

That said, i think if the diagnosis can be made, or is self admitted, then YES, avoiding interactions concerning provocative topics is probably best avoided.

TAM:)

[CompusMentus]

I listened to a Fetzer/Judy Wood interview the other day. Judy was saying that she found it significant that the US Department of Defense had made some announcement on the weaponisation of space the day before she was to publish one of her "space beam" papers (or make a speech or something along those lines). I cannot decide whether this is an indication of her own inflated sense of self-importance or a sign of mental illness. I have listened to many of the Fetzer/Wood interviews (I find them fascinating) and she does come over as quite a timid amiable creature but overall I lean to the toward the view that she's an apple or two short of a picnic.

Compus

[Kent1]

Interesting thread. I believe a lot of the hard core people that regularly still post on the subject are mentally ill. Jammonius the most extreme current example here. I believe CIT and Cap. Bob would also fit into various mental disorders as well.

On the other hand I believe metamars and RedIbis being more along the lines of addicted to "hidden knowledge".

Bill smith is along the common troll lines with zero useful information. One of very few I put in ignore.

Chris7 seems to be a combination. Borderline crazy with some trolling traits mixed in.

[jiggeryqua]

she does come over as quite a timid amiable creature but overall I lean to the toward the view that she's an apple or two short of a picnic.

I'm accustomed to jrefers flaunting their ignorance of art (after all, it's not science, so who cares?) but where does this proud ignorance of mental illness come from, when such an ill-informed, unresearched, bordering on the superstitious approach to physical illness would be laughed off the boards?

I use you only as an example, Compus, of something common here and elsewhere.

[T.A.M.]

I'm accustomed to jrefers flaunting their ignorance of art (after all, it's not science, so who cares?) but where does this proud ignorance of mental illness come from, when such an ill-informed, unresearched, bordering on the superstitious approach to physical illness would be laughed off the boards?

I use you only as an example, Compus, of something common here and elsewhere.

I love art, all forms. I appreciate it, and i am a writer myself. I would love to see proof that the disregard or dislike for art is a systemic "jref" thing.

I have no ignorance of mental illness what so ever. On the contrary i am a clinician trained in the assessment, diagnosis, and management of mental and physical illnesses. If you see my comments above, you would realize that.

TAM:)

[CompusMentus]

....where does this proud ignorance of mental illness come from, when such an ill-informed, unresearched, bordering on the superstitious approach to physical illness would be laughed off the boards?
I use you only as an example, Compus, of something common here and elsewhere.


Unlike TAM I am not a professional in the field of mental health but I am capable of forming an accurate judgement about someones thinking faculties/sanity. I'm also quite informed about and have done a fair amount of "research" of her, let's say, "unconventional" theories. Having listened to hours of her talking about her work. I feel quite confident that she is.....ummm.....bonkers.


Compus

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Here's my take on the Truthers from my website "9/11 Truthers Exposed":

Psychology:

The psychology of a 9/11 Truther is that of a person who has limited reasoning skills, thought processes and concepts on reality. Their attitudes towards others with a different view or opinion is very prejudice and has many traits. Take the trait of rigidty, which means inability to adapt to a situation. When they are asked a set of questions or are asked to present evidence reguarding their theories and claims they will change the subject immediately. They adapt to ignore questioning while under pressure to provide evidence to prove their theories and claims. Truthers are very rigid, they are self-contained and have a narrow view of the world and a prevailing outlook on history. They see the world as their group (9/11 Truth Movement) sees it, being that they are "ethnocentric". Consequently Truthers hate the people that are hated by their immediate group, the 9/11 Truth Movement. Truthers have learned to rely upon the authorities and standards which regulate, among other things, the prejudice of the group. Truthers have to have the "standard" prejudices to be a "normal" member of the group. Meaning that if they do not do what the group is expected of them they will not be part of the group. In the years from September 11, 2001, not one single shred of phsyical evidence from a 9/11 Truther has turned up.

Truthers often claim to have "mountains of evidence", but won't show it to the general public for fear of being rediculed and humiliated for not having the evidence on hand while in a debate. They will sway away from the real facts and evidence and present their own perverted and twisted versions of events reguarding 9/11. The problem with Truthers is that they imagine everything in a fantasy realm. They will fabricate doctored videos and pictures to suit their motives, it's the only way they can get their false information out to the public. Only they see the fantasy and noone else. The 9/11 Truth Movement doesn't want to look for the truth, they want to cause chaos, riots and murder.

How can we get at this basic rigidity of personality of a 9/11 Truther and find a way to test it? Among the tests of rigidity is the following: Evidence that is shown to a Truther and is asked to show another piece of evidence to counter the evidence that has been submitted. The Truthers can't go in for "wild harbrained innovations", such as editted videos or photos that have been photoshopped from the internet or quotes from survivors, victims and eyewitnesses that are taken out of context.

Personality factors of 9/11 Truthers are also easily elicited by the interview, questionaire, and life-history, as in this self-analysis of an avowed Fascist:

Question: Are you easily irritated when people argue with you about 9/11?
Truthers Responce: Yes. The one thing I cannot stand in any form is opposition.

Question: Do you easily get upset when things go wrong in an arguement about 9/11?
Truthers Responce: Yes. When things go wrong I take it as a humiliating defeat.

Question: Is it hard to admit it when you know you are in the wrong about 9/11?
Truthers Responce: Yes. It's difficult for me to retreat one step.

Question: Are certain people so unreasonable that you hate them when you talk about 9/11 with them?
Truthers Responce: Yes. Anyone who opposes me I hate.

9/11 Truthers have a conflict, it may be hung up between two alternatives, presenting evidence or admit that they are wrong, and at least for the time being to lose both of those goals only to be rediculed or punished for their indecisions about the truth that there was not a conspiracy by the U.S. Government on September 11, 2001.

Paranoia Schizophrenia:

9/11 Truthers suffer from paranoia schizophrenia. It's a disease related to the thought process, basically the brain and mental compacity. Truthers suffer from this type of disease because they don't know the events that happened in the real world and that the events of 9/11 were too much for their minds to process the information. They choose to ignore what had happened on 9/11, they think they have seen something other than what reality is projecting. In short they're imagining things that others can't imagine. They also pretend to ignore the evidence presented to them and what they are shown. 9/11 Truthers are mentally disturbed, and maybe that's why they are suffering from paranoia schizophrenia. Truthers also suffer from narcisim, where their reality is warped, where they have a split personality. That's from being themselves one time then being another version of themselves the next. Either way, the Truthers suffer at their own expense and must seek professional psychiatric and psychological help.

9/11 Truthers are so paranoid that they claim that ordinary people who are researching 9/11 and prove them wrong are called: "Disinformants", "Paid Government Agents", "Fascists", "Racists", "Lackys", "Sheeps", "Liars", "Nazis", "NWO Shills", "Jews", "Freemasons", "Brainwashed", "Communists", "OTCers (Official Conspiracy Theorist)", "Murderers", "CIA Agents" or "Paid Shills". Even though ordinary people are just citizens, and nothing more, the Truthers insist that they are something else entirely. Anyone can research any part of history, they can look at the facts then look at the evidence. Many will find that evidence is key to any debate/arguement. However the Truthers will disreguard the real evidence and rely on imaginary evidence that doesn't support their claims or theories. How can anyone disreguard the real evidence and put in their own imaginary evidence in? Because the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories are just narrative and fairy stories and nothing more. Their stories contain no evidence and can't be taken seriously. But they can be taken as folk lore or urban legends.

All I can say is that I've studied the Truthers for many years.

[The Charnel Expanse]

May I suggest merging this thread with this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=180565)?

[The Charnel Expanse]

Personality factors of 9/11 Truthers are also easily elicited by the interview, questionaire, and life-history, as in this self-analysis of an avowed Fascist
That opens up another can of worms. Is everyone who belongs to a fringe/radical political movement mentally ill? I take issue with that.
If someone is repeatedly lied to and his/her socio-economic reality is conducive to such a lie being a satisfying explanation [perhaps self-exculpatory] for the state of things then the lie becomes as good as truth to that person. The irrational fear behind it becomes rational to them.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

That opens up another can of worms. Is everyone who belongs to a fringe/radical political movement mentally ill? I take issue with that.
If someone is repeatedly lied to and his/her socio-economic reality is conducive to such a lie being a satisfying explanation [perhaps self-exculpatory] for the state of things then the lie becomes as good as truth to that person. The irrational fear behind it becomes rational to them.

So if the Truthers have alot of fear, that fear turns to anger, anger turns to hate & hate leads to their suffering. Then who really cares if they suffer at their own expense? I know I don't! Paranoia is their suffering, they just won't admit that they have a serious mental issue that they can't simply see because they're blinded by stupidity & ignorance.

[The Charnel Expanse]

Stupidity and ignorance aren't mental illnesses though. Neither are stubbornness, credulity or intellectual laziness.
I spent a couple of [miserable] months as a truther a few years back and what snapped me out of it was simply hearing more compelling arguments from the other side.
If someone doesn't seek out that contrary opinion or refuses to listen when it's offered, that doesn't make them mentally ill, does it?

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Stupidity and ignorance aren't mental illnesses though. Neither are stubbornness, credulity or intellectual laziness.
I spent a couple of [miserable] months as a truther a few years back and what snapped me out of it was simply hearing more compelling arguments from the other side.
If someone doesn't seek out that contrary opinion or refuses to listen when it's offered, that doesn't make them mentally ill, does it?

If Truthers are questioning the sanity of the witnesses & experts who are backed by the evidence they provided & calling them a bunch of liars & such. I would say that they're mentally challenged in so many ways.

[The Charnel Expanse]

If Truthers are questioning the sanity of the witnesses & experts who are backed by the evidence they provided & calling them a bunch of liars & such. I would say that they're mentally challenged in so many ways.
If such claims originate from low-level truthers then I'm inclined to agree. But I think many of them are just conditioned to believe that because the more prominent ones like Alex Jones [the ones who cynically use the movement as a cash cow] are yelling in their ears that it's integral to "understanding the conspiracy" and whatnot.

Maybe I'm being pollyanna-ish about this, but I think most truthers can be reformed if they're exposed to the right facts and people.

[uke2se]

I don't believe all - or even most - truthers are mentally ill as per the medical definition. I think that what we have here is herd-mentality coupled in an odd way with elitism. A truther needs to feel special - heck, everyone does - and he achieves this by imagining that he knows the truth about something that is hidden from the general public. This feeds a narcissistic trait and produces feelings of disdain for dissenters.

Enter the "movement". A bunch of people feeding each others' fantasies, with authority figures at the helm providing new "ideas" and you have the recipe for the truth movement, no real mental illness required.

Of course, there are a number of truthers - probably a few of the leaders even - that most likely could be or have been diagnosed as mentally ill. I'm fairly sure a number of our regulars fit into this category.

[The Charnel Expanse]

It's so easy to feign a mental illness - especially nowadays. Conspiracy Theory has become a lucrative industry and Alex Jones and Glenn Beck are living proof of that. I'm as sure that the truther movement is being led by a bunch of opportunists and snake oil salesmen as I've ever been sure of anything.

[Titanic Explorer]

Severe paranoia is a common symptom of mental illness, as is spending every day lost in fantasies of men in black and black helicopters.

I've seen quite a few Truthers in person that exhibited signs of schizephrenia.

[Fonebone]

I have no ignorance of mental illness what so ever. On the contrary i am a clinician trained in the assessment, diagnosis, and management of mental and physical illnesses. If you see my comments above, you would realize that. TAM:)

Au contraire
Show me where, in your comments above, you challenged the assertion
that PTSD is a "mental illness " made in the OP.
And a right on the money post about twoofs and their mental illness on page 5:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/...pg5#pid9259507
"When it comes to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I have to wonder if some of ATS's visitors are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress.

PTSD is a nervous affliction that is earned - NOT a "mental illness ".
Bic ?

[atecom]

A few more years with the NWO and ill be able to earn my PTSD. The wait is hard though.

[T.A.M.]

Au contraire
Show me where, in your comments above, you challenged the assertion
that PTSD is a "mental illness " made in the OP.


PTSD is a nervous affliction that is earned - NOT a "mental illness ".
Bic ?

I don't challenge PTSD as a mental illness...it is. It doesn't mean that people with PTSD are "crazy" it doesn't mean they will always have PTSD. It doesn't mean there children will have it.

However, according to the DSM IV, it is. Now if you want to quibble about what you personally consider to be a "Mental Illness" versus what us clinicians consider, that is fine, you are entitled to your PERSONAL opinion. I am merely telling you what the current state of the disorder is.

TAM:)

edit: I am certain your issue is with the word "illness" as it is clear that PTSD is a mental "issue". For a Physician such as myself, an illness is any affliction that results in a state abnormal and/or negative change from the normal human status. example: a common cold, will be referred to as an illness by a doctor. So will Diabetes, So will a sinus infection. Now only one of these three diagnoses are considered CHRONIC and permanent diagnosis. The other two are short term, temporary, and are aquired infectiously. Yet we (clinicians) refer to them as illnesses.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

what does "Bic?" mean. I find no relevant reference for it on a google search.

TAM:)

[Fonebone]

what does "Bic?" mean. I find no relevant reference for it on a google search.

TAM:)

Fonebone < Bic ? ( see below )

Originally Posted by carlitos
Fonebone, what does "Bic" mean? You never answered the last time I asked. Thanks.

Au Contraire Carlitos , I answered your question in post ---
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...72#post5362772
<excerpt>

Quote:
....The term "bic" is AmerAsian mil-speak for " Have I made myself perfectly clear ? "
or " Do you understand me ? " and the meanings both direct and implied were
completely understood by the citizens.
" Bic ? " in the South-east Asian polyglot is roughly equal to an East German border
guard's use of the term " verstehen? " after completing his statement. --- Capito ?
---Comprendre ? ---hiểu không ?

A truth-teller finds the doors closed against him -Chinese maxim
I think at the time my words and writing disturbed you .

BTW --I spell the word phonically- The correct spelling if such a word does exist in a dictionary
may be "bik" or "bick" or bique or even "bicque"--

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Fonebone < Bic ? ( see below )

FB, your actions on this forum has given me some thought about your personality. You seem to be locked in a world where it's only you in it. You seem to lack social skills with other people. You feel like an outcast, of sorts. You fear that the world is against you, but you fail to realize that the world is trying to help you. You also feel that you're not being helped with your condition, which isn't true at all. I feel like you've had a troubled childhood & you're trying to express or vent your anger towards those who want to help. You feel that you must push away those who are helping you.

[T.A.M.]

Fonebone < Bic ? ( see below )


BTW --I spell the word phonically- The correct spelling if such a word does exist in a dictionary
may be "bik" or "bick" or bique or even "bicque"--

Thank you for the info.

Concerning my other response to you, are we on the same page that your disagreement is with the terminology "illness"? Have I made it clear, and understandable why I refer to it as an illness?

Thanks

TAM:)

[bill smith]

Thank you for the info.

Concerning my other response to you, are we on the same page that your disagreement is with the terminology "illness"? Have I made it clear, and understandable why I refer to it as an illness?

Thanks

TAM:)

Have a look at the attached video TAM. Do you think the behaviour of most of the monkeys is normal or abnormal ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.911blogger.com%2F&hl=en&v=KZeiSKnhOBc&gl=US 5 monkeys

Given that Truthers will mostly metaphorically ' go for the banana ' and push the envelope does that mean that they have a mental illness ?

[Seymour Butz]

Comparing monkeys to twoofs.

Seems apt.....

[carlitos]

I haven't tried to solve one of these in a while, but here we go.

Fonebone < Bic ? ( see below )

I'm going to go with decimal ASCII codes.

F = 70
o = 111
n = 110
e = 101
b = 98
o = 111
n = 110
e = 101

B = 66
i = 105
c = 99

s = 115
e = 101
e = 101

b = 98
e = 101
l = 108
o = 111
w = 119

So, if I sum these up, I get

812 < 270 ? (317 + 537)

812 < 270 ? (854)

812 < 270 / 854
812 < 0.316 False

812 < 270 * 854
812 < 230580 True

812 < 270 + 854
812 < 1124 True

812 < 270 - 854
812 < -584 False

So, it works if you replace the question mark with either the + sign, or division.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Narrator: There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Truther Zone.

Narrator: You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!

Imagine, if you will, that every Truther was like John Valentine:

John Valentine: There's a man on the wing of this plane!

John Valentine: There was somebody out there. You gotta believe me!

Old Woman: I saw him. Green and slimy.

Old Man: Leave the poor man alone.

Old Woman: I'm only trying to help. You've got to humor them.

John Valentine: It was lightning. At first I thought it was animal. Some kind of bird or something. But it was a man! There were flames coming out of the engine, and a flash of smoke. Maybe it was a technician who was caught on the side of the plane when it took off. How could he survive out there? The air's so thin, the blast of the wind. It's so cold.

John Valentine: It's impossible, isn't it? Oh my god, I feel so stupid!

John Valentine: Can you imagine? A naked man crawling along the wing of an airplane at 35,000 feet?

Every Truther dreads these words: Oh my god, I feel so stupid!

[beachnut]

If such claims originate from low-level truthers then I'm inclined to agree. But I think many of them are just conditioned to believe that because the more prominent ones like Alex Jones [the ones who cynically use the movement as a cash cow] are yelling in their ears that it's integral to "understanding the conspiracy" and whatnot.

Maybe I'm being pollyanna-ish about this, but I think most truthers can be reformed if they're exposed to the right facts and people.
I think most truthers can join reality with knowledge.
The 911 truth leaders may be insane or out for the money, fooling others to donate money so they can travel and spread lies.

Most truthers will fade from the internet, drop their avatars, gaining knowledge; learn not to be scammed next time for more money, property or their lives if they are fooled by the next "kool-aid" party nut-case leader of woo.

Wish my worse scammed moment, gullible time, or lack of knowledge event was being in 911 truth...

[Titanic Explorer]

I wonder how many Truthers came to their senses and realised the paranoia laced Truther scene is all based on ignorance and lies?

[T.A.M.]

Have a look at the attached video TAM. Do you think the behaviour of most of the monkeys is normal or abnormal ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.911blogger.com%2F&hl=en&v=KZeiSKnhOBc&gl=US 5 monkeys

Given that Truthers will mostly metaphorically ' go for the banana ' and push the envelope does that mean that they have a mental illness ?

Yes, yes I know of the "5 Monkeys" experiment.

1. Men are not monkeys. While I believe monkeys are capable of thoughts, emotions, etc...I think they lack adult human insight, rationality, and logic.

2. I think a new monkey, who does not know the punishment for reaching for the banana, does what is expected...goes for the banana...because he does not have the intellect, rationality, logic, or insight to examine the situation first.

a sane, logical person with insight, upon entering a room with 4 OTHER people, would look up at the bananas, and think...

"Hmmm, why do those bananas continue to hang there untouched, while 4 of my human friends continue to sit around hungry. I should ask them why they leave the bananas hanging.".

3. Go back to first line of #1.

TAM:)

[Oystein]

...
a sane, logical person with insight, upon entering a room with 4 OTHER people, would look up at the bananas, and think...

"Hmmm, why do those bananas continue to hang there untouched, while 4 of my human friends continue to sit around hungry. I should ask them why they leave the bananas hanging.".
...

Actually, I'd go for the banana! If seen it too often that people are too sheepish to act to improve their conditions when they are in a group. Two stories to highlight what I mean, one from own experience, one from a radio call-in.


1.) I live in a land with moderate climate and few A/C'd buildings. But I studied in the Deep South (University of Georgia) for 2 years. In summer, I would sometimes enter a room where all students were sitting in shorts and t-shirts, legs folded on top of each other, arms wrapped around their bodies, bitterly freezing because A/C was set to lowest possible. It only took someone with a pen to move a little lever on the side of the box next to the door to set the A/C to more bearable temps. Why did 30 people in a room not improve their condition, and why did I, #31, do it? Because I could. And no one ever punished me for it. My theory is that Southerners are so used to cool A/C everywhere, and at the same time so respectful of public property, that they would not question the sensibility of the existing A/C settings and/or would never dare touching it. Whereas I always felt uncomfortable in a fridge, like my environment pleasant, and do question uncomfortable conditions. Plus, I understand that public property ought to serve its users, not vice versa.

2.) A radio show solicited callers to relate family traditions. One young lady had this story: When she went to university and started cooking for herself, she puzzled her roommates when she cut off the ends of sausages ("Bratwürste") before frying them in a pan. Asked, why she did that, she explained her mother had always done it, so she thought that was ho its done. Puzzled herself now, she later called her mum, why she did it, and sure enough, mom had learned it from grandma. So she called grandma, who in turn had adopted the habit from great-grandma. Great-grandma was still alive and fending for herself. next weekend, as the family sat together, daughert, mother and grandmother asked great-granny: Why do we cut the ends of our Bratwürste? And great-granny replied: "What? You still do that? Don't you have larger pans by now??"

:D

[bill smith]

Actually, I'd go for the banana! If seen it too often that people are too sheepish to act to improve their conditions when they are in a group. Two stories to highlight what I mean, one from own experience, one from a radio call-in.


1.) I live in a land with moderate climate and few A/C'd buildings. But I studied in the Deep South (University of Georgia) for 2 years. In summer, I would sometimes enter a room where all students were sitting in shorts and t-shirts, legs folded on top of each other, arms wrapped around their bodies, bitterly freezing because A/C was set to lowest possible. It only took someone with a pen to move a little lever on the side of the box next to the door to set the A/C to more bearable temps. Why did 30 people in a room not improve their condition, and why did I, #31, do it? Because I could. And no one ever punished me for it. My theory is that Southerners are so used to cool A/C everywhere, and at the same time so respectful of public property, that they would not question the sensibility of the existing A/C settings and/or would never dare touching it. Whereas I always felt uncomfortable in a fridge, like my environment pleasant, and do question uncomfortable conditions. Plus, I understand that public property ought to serve its users, not vice versa.

2.) A radio show solicited callers to relate family traditions. One young lady had this story: When she went to university and started cooking for herself, she puzzled her roommates when she cut off the ends of sausages ("Bratwürste") before frying them in a pan. Asked, why she did that, she explained her mother had always done it, so she thought that was ho its done. Puzzled herself now, she later called her mum, why she did it, and sure enough, mom had learned it from grandma. So she called grandma, who in turn had adopted the habit from great-grandma. Great-grandma was still alive and fending for herself. next weekend, as the family sat together, daughert, mother and grandmother asked great-granny: Why do we cut the ends of our Bratwürste? And great-granny replied: "What? You still do that? Don't you have larger pans by now??"

:D

So you are the non-deadhead monkey who still believes that WTC7 was not a controlled demolition.

[Oystein]

So you are the non-deadhead monkey who still believes that WTC7 was not a controlled demolition.

Uhm don't know how you conclude this from my anekdotes, but yes ;)

[bill smith]

Uhm don't know how you conclude this from my anekdotes, but yes ;)

Remarkable..

[TheRedWorm]

I remember when he came here, Dictator Cheney was a truther, now he is not. It stands to reason that if one can change, they all can, be it from reasoning or medication :-D

[dafydd]

So you are the non-deadhead monkey who still believes that WTC7 was not a controlled demolition.

An awful attempt at trolling,you really have lost the touch.Boring.

[Orphia Nay]

We have had several threads about mental illness and 9/11. If anyone is interested in reading more, do a Tag Search for 'truther psychology'.

[TraneWreck]

Here's my take on the Truthers from my website "9/11 Truthers Exposed":



All I can say is that I've studied the Truthers for many years.

Maybe you cover this elsewhere on your site, but you can't underestimate the "I just turned 19 and started smoking weed religiously" factor in trutherism.

[T.A.M.]

Maybe you cover this elsewhere on your site, but you can't underestimate the "I just turned 19 and started smoking weed religiously" factor in trutherism.

I agree. When I was in my late teens, early 20's (college) it was the "In thing" the "Hip Thing" to rage against the machine...to protest...to oppose.

I am convinced it is one of the reasons why the support for trutherism has died these last 3-4 years...a lot of them simply grew up or grew out of undergrad and weed.

TAM:)

[ElMondoHummus]

...a lot of them simply grew up or grew out of undergrad and weed.

TAM:)

Third possibiiity: They ran out of weed. ;)

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Maybe you cover this elsewhere on your site, but you can't underestimate the "I just turned 19 and started smoking weed religiously" factor in trutherism.

Everyone knows what Truthers do in order to make up fairy stories.

[Grizzly Bear]

Instead of arguing that they're all mentally ill I favor it being another version of creationists vs evolutionists. The battle ended well.

[little grey rabbit]

The Soviet Union also went through a period of diagnosing dissidents as mentally ill.

[Thunder]

The Soviet Union also went through a period of diagnosing dissidents as mentally ill.

that doesn't mean that 9-11 truthers aren't mental...or ill.

[little grey rabbit]

that doesn't mean that 9-11 truthers aren't mental...or ill.

It doesn't mean they are either. Simply repulsive elites will generally use any tool to try and maintain control.

[Thunder]

Fact: many 9-11 truthers do indeed show many symptoms of paranoia, psychosis, and even schizophrenia.

case in point, Nico Haupt.

[little grey rabbit]

Fact: many 9-11 truthers do indeed show many symptoms of paranoia, psychosis, and even schizophrenia.

case in point, Nico Haupt.

paranoia and schizophrenia might in some contexts be healthy responses.

You should try reading a book like The Whisperers.

[dafydd]

Ok,which book is like the Whisperers?

[Thunder]

paranoia and schizophrenia might in some contexts be healthy responses.

classic rebutal from a Conspiracy Theorist.

anyways, Truthers call us "traitors", "shills", "co-conspirators", "agents", etc etc.

within that context, i dont think u guys should complain if non-Truthers call you mentally ill.

[The Platypus]

It doesn't mean they are either. Simply repulsive elites will generally use any tool to try and maintain control.

What elites? What control?

I found out how nuts the 911 cults are the same way we all do, by encountering 911 cult followers. It's their/your behaviour and words, the constant lying, the massive use of hyperbole, the calling everyone else evil, etc... that gave me the idea that some if not all of you are crazy.

Spewing some regurgitated delusion about some mysterious unnamed boogiemen, referred too as "repulsive elites", that are making up evil plots for control is exactly the type of thing that shows me that you are nuts.

[little grey rabbit]

What elites? What control?

I found out how nuts the 911 cults are the same way we all do, by encountering 911 cult followers. It's their/your behaviour and words, the constant lying, the massive use of hyperbole, the calling everyone else evil, etc... that gave me the idea that some if not all of you are crazy.

Spewing some regurgitated delusion about some mysterious unnamed boogiemen, referred too as "repulsive elites", that are making up evil plots for control is exactly the type of thing that shows me that you are nuts.

Actually the "repulsive elites" referred to were those portions of Soviet society that used forcibly medicate dissidents for mental illness.

I think "repulsive" is fairly apt adjective. And I am sure these abuses would have been fully supported by all public organs and media of Soviet society at the time

[Thunder]

Actually the "repulsive elites" referred to were those portions of Soviet society that used forcibly medicate dissidents for mental illness.

let me know when we start forcibly treating 9-11 Truthers for mental illness.

[little grey rabbit]

I was for a short while.

[Thunder]

I was for a short while.

BBBBBB SSSSSS

the "government" forced you to receive treatment, because of your being a 9-11 Truther?

Im gonna need to see some evidence of this amazing claim.

[little grey rabbit]

Where did I say "government"?

All I said was "repulsive elites"

[T.A.M.]

Depends on the circumstances. Present day, I have the power as a physician to force medication on a patient if I feel they are a danger to themselves or others, and if the medication will reduce or remove this danger.

eg. A schizophrenic patient who, upon having hallucinations that all other people are aliens out to kill him, declares that he is going to kill his entire family for trying to kill him.

TAM:)

[Thunder]

I was for a short while.

who forced you to undergo mental treatment for 9-11 Truth?

[The Platypus]

I was for a short while.

So you have a history of mental illness... gee, go figure, so many of you drones do.

[The Platypus]

who forced you to undergo mental treatment for 9-11 Truth?

You know, them, they, the elites...:rolleyes:

[little grey rabbit]

So you have a history of mental illness... gee, go figure, so many of you drones do.

No I said I was forcibly treated for a short time, not that I have a history of mental illness.

As far as I can judge I do not believe I suffer or have suffered from mental illness if you exclude mild situational depression.

[little grey rabbit]

Although that doesnt mean that, when recently I was concerned that my Holocaust denial activities while I was in Germany might have me wind up before the court (normal sentence if you do not retract being 5 years, 2.5 years if you recant your views to the court), I wasn't going to try to submit a plea "Not Guilty by reason of insanity"

I do wonder if schizophrenia would be accepted in Germany as a defence against a charge of Holocaust denial. I suspect it would be caught under a Catch 22 clause.

ie. Only a sane person would be aware that large parts of the Holocaust narrative were untrue, ergo if you deny the Holocaust you must be sane.

[A W Smith]

well you certainly have your problems, And you are a holocaust denier on top of being a truther? I'm Shocked I tell you! Shocked!

[little grey rabbit]

well you certainly have your problems, And you are a holocaust denier on top of being a truther? I'm Shocked I tell you! Shocked!

I certainly do have my problems, for example, despite being universally acknowledged as being highly proficient in my previous area of expertise I have had to retrain in a completely field in order to get another job. So yes, I do have my problems, mental issues, however, are not among them.

[The Platypus]

No I said I was forcibly treated for a short time, not that I have a history of mental illness.

As far as I can judge I do not believe I suffer or have suffered from mental illness if you exclude mild situational depression.

Mentally ill people often think they aren't mentally ill and that they are having treatment "forced" upon them.

You've been treated for mental illness, therefore you have a history of it. duh.

[The Platypus]

ie. Only a sane person would be aware that large parts of the Holocaust narrative were untrue, ergo if you deny the Holocaust you must be sane.

So says a guy with a mental illness.

[The Platypus]

who forced you to undergo mental treatment for 9-11 Truth?

Noone, he's making that part up.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

paranoia and schizophrenia might in some contexts be healthy responses.


Holy Christ... In what context(s) would schizophrenia be a healthy response?

[little grey rabbit]

Mentally ill people often think they aren't mentally ill and that they are having treatment "forced" upon them.

You've been treated for mental illness, therefore you have a history of it. duh.

Only if you are misdiagnosed with cancer then you have a cancer history. I was never given anything more than a preliminary diagnosis because I refused to accept the authority of the psychiatrists and answered no questions.

The upshoot of what happened is I spent 10 days in confinement until I took legal action to obtain a court order ordering my release.

Because I answered no questions it was impossible for the doctors to give a firm diagnosis and I exploited this in court to obtain my release - over their objections I might add.

[The Platypus]

Misdiagnosed according to who, you?

This guy is hilarious, he embraces delusions and denies reality over more than one issue, he says crazy things, by his own admission the courts of his country think he's mentally ill and he's been treated for mental illness, and yet he thinks noone can tell he's got a mental illness problem.

Now that's crazy.... LOL

[little grey rabbit]

This guy is hilarious, he embraces delusions and denies reality over more than one issue, by his own admission the courts of his country think he's mentally ill and he's been treated for mental illness, and yet he thinks noone can tell he's got a mental illness problem.

Now that's crazy.... LOL

Actually the courts of my country did not express an opinion on whether or not I was mentally ill. All they said was that evidence could not be supplied to demonstrate I needed treatment - hence I was ordered to be released immediately.

[The Platypus]

Actually the courts of my country did not express an opinion on whether or not I was mentally ill. All they said was that evidence could not be supplied to demonstrate I needed treatment - hence I was ordered to be released immediately.

First you claimed it was the courts, now it wasn't. So then who was it that you claim "forced" you into treatment?

[The Platypus]

Something is very fishy with this vague story of yours. If there was no diagnosis, then there was no treatment. So then you are lying from the beginning by claiming you were forced into mental illness treatment.

[Fonebone]

Fact: many 9-11 truthers do indeed show many symptoms of paranoia, psychosis, and even schizophrenia.

case in point, Nico Haupt.

Why don't you turn him in to the authorities ?

Homeland security says it's your duty to turn people in.
Be a "good German"--Bic ?

[The Platypus]

So to summarize, you were in Germany, and you were in custody for something, and you thought that your activities of denying the holocaust would end you up in deeper trouble, so clearly you weren't in court for that, so what were you in court for originally?

Why did the court order you to be held and to undergo psychiatric evaluation?

How did refusing to cooperate get you off of whatever the charges were and released exactly, how did you exploit this?

If you weren't diagnosed, due to your non cooperation, then what was the "treatment" for mental illness that you endured.

And this was all because you believe in 911 CTs? How do you figure?

This is what you call being "forced by repulsive elites to undergo mental illness treatment for believing in 911 conspiracies"?

What you have claimed, makes no sense at all and makes you look crazy.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Something is very fishy with this vague story of yours. If there was no diagnosis, then there was no treatment. So then you are lying from the beginning by claiming you were forced into mental illness treatment.


Keeping in mind that I'm not a mental health professional, a few possibilities come to mind...


He's trolling
He's a pathological liar
He may suffer some other illness (disorganized thinking is a possible manifestation of schizophrenia; this may also explain why he attempted to defend schizophrenia as healthy in certain contexts)

[dafydd]

I was for a short while.

Bollocks.I can believe that you were treated for a mental illness,but the government did force you to because you are a truther.

[Nick Terry]

Keeping in mind that I'm not a mental health professional, a few possibilities come to mind...


He's trolling
He's a pathological liar
He may suffer some other illness (disorganized thinking is a possible manifestation of schizophrenia; this may also explain why he attempted to defend schizophrenia as healthy in certain contexts)


1. yes
2. yes
3. narcissistic personality disorder, at the very least

[carlitos]

Keeping in mind that I'm not a mental health professional, a few possibilities come to mind...


He's trolling
He's a pathological liar
He may suffer some other illness (disorganized thinking is a possible manifestation of schizophrenia; this may also explain why he attempted to defend schizophrenia as healthy in certain contexts)

Check. "my country" - sure, pal. He's in junior college somewhere in Kansas, I bet.

[LightinDarkness]

Some Scottish guy posted an awesome thread over at the ATS loony bin. He is promoting the banning of those with admitted mental illness, since it is being arged that places like that only re-inforce their delusional thinking.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread595425/pg1

Some not so shockers: 3 moderators have a diagnosed mental illness - hear voices, schrizophrenia.

This is kind of off topic but the fact that ATS promotes people to be moderators who have mental illnesses that would make them more gullible to CT thinking is...ironic. It really is the blind leading the blind, over there.

I would put 9/11 truthers, and other conspiracy theories, into three broad classifications

1) The Mentally Ill People - These are the people who believe in the CT because they have a real mental illness. Paranoid schizophrenia, delusions of grandeur, etc.
2) People Who Are Scared of Events Beyond Human Control - This group of people believe in CT because they offer a comforting view of how controlled forces plan all things that are "bad" in the world. Its not that some earthquake randomly occurred beyond human control and killed people for no reason, but that the evil US government fired HAARP at Haiti in an effort to control the political system there.
3) People Who Love Hidden Knowledge - This sect doesn't really fit into (1) or (2), but they believe in CT because there is something sexy and alluring about having "secret knowledge" about what REALLY goes on in the world that the rest of the sheeple don't. They like to feel like the elite forces of truth. If any CT were ever to become "mainstream", this group would find another wacky idea to believe in instead.

[Thunder]

I certainly do have my problems, for example, despite being universally acknowledged as being highly proficient in my previous area of expertise I have had to retrain in a completely field in order to get another job. So yes, I do have my problems, mental issues, however, are not among them.

I thought you said you were a 9-11 Truther and Holocaust denier.

[Scott Sommers]

Some Scottish guy posted an awesome thread over at the ATS loony bin. He is promoting the banning of those with admitted mental illness, since it is being arged that places like that only re-inforce their delusional thinking.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread595425/pg1

Some not so shockers: 3 moderators have a diagnosed mental illness - hear voices, schrizophrenia.


Where does it say this? I read through almost the whole post and could find no reference to the 3 mentally ill moderators.

[dafydd]

I thought you said you were a 9-11 Truther and Holocaust denier.

Cast iron evidence of metal health problems.

[Fonebone]

Thank you for the info.

Concerning my other response to you, are we on the same page that your
disagreement is with the terminology "illness"? Have I made it clear, and
understandable why I refer to it as an illness?
Thanks
TAM:)

No - You haven't made yourself clear nor understandable.
You stated unequivically the PTSD is a "Mental Illness"
Let's start with the US ARMY definition of PTSD from the
National Institute of Mental Health eh ?

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/03/04/35297-dogs-go-the-distance-program-provides-service-to-veterans-with-ptsd/ttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3409375633223151728#docid=80718927 42127117543

For over 40 years Ken Costich, a former Army colonel, has dealt wit
post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms.

Lucien Mason, a former lance corporal in the Marine Corps has also coped
with PTSD since he returned from Vietnam, more than 35 years ago.
Both men have endured medical treatment and sought psychological
assistance from professionals, and both men are turning to service dogs
as a last resort.
According to the National Institute of Mental Health, PTSD is an
"anxiety disorder'that can develop after exposure to a terrifying event
or ordeal in which physical harm occurred or was threatened."

OK T.A.M. - Are these two combat veterans " Mentally Ill "?

Here is a story about a military working dog that came home from Iraq with PTSD.
Is this dog " mentally ill " T.A.M.?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/03/bombsniffing-dog-gina-com_n_668522.html

I think you owe all PTSD suffers a more thorough explanation of your
diagnosis and why the veteran's PTSD disqualifies him or her from thinking
and speaking intelligently about the murderous attacks of 9/11 !

[little grey rabbit]

So to summarize, you were in Germany, and you were in custody for something, and you thought that your activities of denying the holocaust would end you up in deeper trouble, so clearly you weren't in court for that, so what were you in court for originally?

Why did the court order you to be held and to undergo psychiatric evaluation?

How did refusing to cooperate get you off of whatever the charges were and released exactly, how did you exploit this?

If you weren't diagnosed, due to your non cooperation, then what was the "treatment" for mental illness that you endured.

And this was all because you believe in 911 CTs? How do you figure?

This is what you call being "forced by repulsive elites to undergo mental illness treatment for believing in 911 conspiracies"?

What you have claimed, makes no sense at all and makes you look crazy.

Not even close. Talk about disordered thinking.

[The Platypus]

Not even close. Talk about disordered thinking.


Nice try, but of course it's not even close and it's disordered thinking, because those were questions about your the lies that you spewed, it's your bs story and your disordered thinking that makes no sense in the first place.

Notice i've already said your story makes no sense and that i don't believe it.

[Disbelief]

No - You haven't made yourself clear nor understandable.
You stated unequivically the PTSD is a "Mental Illness"



According to the National Institute of Mental Health, PTSD is an
"anxiety disorder'that can develop after exposure to a terrifying event
or ordeal in which physical harm occurred or was threatened."



You do realize that psychologists/psychiatrists consider "anxiety disorders" as mental illness?

http://www.bu.edu/cpr/reasaccom/whatis-psych.html

Anxiety disorders, the most common group of mental illnesses, are characterized by severe fear or anxiety associated with particular objects and situations. Most people with anxiety disorders try to avoid exposure to the situation that causes anxiety.

<snipped other types>

Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) - a psychological syndrome characterized by specific symptoms that result from exposure to terrifying, life-threatening trauma such as an act of violence, war, or a natural disaster

[T.A.M.]

Fonebone:

1. You seem irritated, and i am. Not sure why. No one is saying people with PTSD are crazy. When a physician refers to an illness, physical or mental, they are simply referring to ANY condition which deviates from the normal human status, that impacts in a negative fashion on that person. A cold is an illness. Depression is an illness, generalized anxiety disorder is an illness, cancer is an illness.

2. I am not deviating from what is considered acceptable in my profession by referring to it as an illness. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the AAFP, or your local medical board.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Oh and fonebone,

I don't owe anyone an explanation. I tried to make myself clearer out of the goodness of my soul but, given your obvious bitterness, i can see it was wasted...oh well.

TAM:)

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Plausiable deniablility is also a trait of an illness. Truthers just love a theory that seems plausiable, but they completely deny the evidence that shatters their theory.

[Seymour Butz]

Where does it say this? I read through almost the whole post and could find no reference to the 3 mentally ill moderators.

Read it again.

One of the mods interacting with the OP says he has been treated for schizo. Another chimed in to say that he hears voices and linked to another thread he started about it.

I forget about the third.

On another note, one of the 3 head honchos there is married to a gal that posts under the handle Valhall. She's a truther and sees ghosts all the time in their house.

[little grey rabbit]

It seems to me that possibly Nazi doctors might have considered people who said the SS were gassing Jews in chambers disguised as showers to have been psychotic or schizophrenic....

[little grey rabbit]

Plausiable deniablility is also a trait of an illness. Truthers just love a theory that seems plausiable, but they completely deny the evidence that shatters their theory.

I don't think you understand what plausible deniability means. Plausible deniability means behaviour that you can deny if you believe exposure being to your disadvantage.

For example a poster here Macgyver in a rather silly thread I started about calender reform and illuminati sponsored terrorism, suddenly went off on a tagent discussing submarines and ended up saying "go too deep and BOOM, you're dead"
Not it is POSSIBLE to imagine (in a situation where the Illuminati did sponsor terrorism on certain significant dates of the Julian calender) to have been a concealed threat. Equally possible he just suddenly became interested in submarines.

But this is an example of plausible deniability, if you call him on this as having a possible (and sinister) double meaning he can plausibly deny it.

[Scott Sommers]

Read it again.

One of the mods interacting with the OP says he has been treated for schizo. Another chimed in to say that he hears voices and linked to another thread he started about it.

Thanks for clearing that up.

On another note, one of the 3 head honchos there is married to a gal that posts under the handle Valhall. She's a truther and sees ghosts all the time in their house.

It's been known for a long time that diagnosis for mental illness assorts in married couples and couples living together.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/468/683
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/10/1173

[jammonius]

There is much, MUCH, that has already been posted on this forum, about this topic, but I will say...

I have no doubt that the percentage of mentally ill that become "truthers" is much higher then those who become fascinated with global warming, starving in Darfur, or some other publicized issue.

THe suggestion that an all powerful, mean and evil NWO could have plotted it and carried out, feeds directly into their paranoia.

TAM:)

I have done a forum-search on 'mental illness and 9/11' with a result of 3 pages of threads, with this one being in the top spot and with the 'ALL 43 video' thread for which I did the OP at the 3rd spot in that search result compilation.

Interesting.

I then did another search based on: 'Mental illness and 9/11 debunkers'.

That search result returned a mere 6 results in total:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126090&highlight=mental+illness+9%2F11+debunkers

It would appear that those who discuss MENTAL ILLNESS as it relates to 9/11 do not adhere to the Socratic Admonition: "KNOW THYSELF" very much, if at all.

Those who seem intent on spouting off about mental illness have not done much in the way of looking in the mirror so to speak. :boggled:

It can fairly be pointed out, I think, that a proper discussion of mental health should include at least a small bit of willingness to assess oneself. Afterall, it is well settled and understood that anyone who seeks to become a mental health professional at or above a certain level, and especially among psychiatrists and doctor-level psychotherapists, those practitioners must themselves undergo rigorous psychoanalysis, right posters?

Anyone here disagree with the need for a little self-awareness?

Look, I am not here seeking merely to engage in "turnabout = fair play." Rather, I am merely suggesting that a comprehensive and well-rounded discussion of 9/11 and mental illness should at least mention, once in awhile, even if only in a 'blue moon' the mental health implications of 9/11 for debunkers and, more importantly, for the population as a whole.

For instance, let me ask whether the concept of "shock & awe" military tactics that seek to impact the psychological response of an entire population has been considered from a mental health perspective.

You folks know what's coming next, right?

Assessment of 9/11 as a psyop.

I won't hold my breathe waiting for responses on any of the aspects of mental health mentioned in this post.

Enjoy your thread.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

I don't think you understand what plausible deniability means. Plausible deniability means behaviour that you can deny if you believe exposure being to your disadvantage.

For example a poster here Macgyver in a rather silly thread I started about calender reform and illuminati sponsored terrorism, suddenly went off on a tagent discussing submarines and ended up saying "go too deep and BOOM, you're dead"
Not it is POSSIBLE to imagine (in a situation where the Illuminati did sponsor terrorism on certain significant dates of the Julian calender) to have been a concealed threat. Equally possible he just suddenly became interested in submarines.

But this is an example of plausible deniability, if you call him on this as having a possible (and sinister) double meaning he can plausibly deny it.

See what your problem is LGR? You didn't like it when McGyver started talking about submarines, but it's ok for you to start talking about the "illuminati". So McGyver made a fair move about submarines, crying about it can't solve your problem about the "illuminati". You can say all you want about them, it just doesn't mean anything to anyone in here. Placing blame on a group is just as equal as a hate crime & then some.

You just think that the "illuminati" should be like the Jews because you want to see some people get the blame for a crime they didn't commit.

Hence your plausible deniability factor!

Plus you targeting McGyver, is just not right.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

I have done a forum-search on 'mental illness and 9/11' with a result of 3 pages of threads, with this one being in the top spot and with the 'ALL 43 video' thread for which I did the OP at the 3rd spot in that search result compilation.

Interesting.

I then did another search based on: 'Mental illness and 9/11 debunkers'.

That search result returned a mere 6 results in total:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126090&highlight=mental+illness+9%2F11+debunkers

It would appear that those who discuss MENTAL ILLNESS as it relates to 9/11 do not adhere to the Socratic Admonition: "KNOW THYSELF" very much, if at all.

Those who seem intent on spouting off about mental illness have not done much in the way of looking in the mirror so to speak. :boggled:

It can fairly be pointed out, I think, that a proper discussion of mental health should include at least a small bit of willingness to assess oneself. Afterall, it is well settled and understood that anyone who seeks to become a mental health professional at or above a certain level, and especially among psychiatrists and doctor-level psychotherapists, those practitioners must themselves undergo rigorous psychoanalysis, right posters?

Anyone here disagree with the need for a little self-awareness?

Look, I am not here seeking merely to engage in "turnabout = fair play." Rather, I am merely suggesting that a comprehensive and well-rounded discussion of 9/11 and mental illness should at least mention, once in awhile, even if only in a 'blue moon' the mental health implications of 9/11 for debunkers and, more importantly, for the population as a whole.

For instance, let me ask whether the concept of "shock & awe" military tactics that seek to impact the psychological response of an entire population has been considered from a mental health perspective.

You folks know what's coming next, right?

Assessment of 9/11 as a psyop.

I won't hold my breathe waiting for responses on any of the aspects of mental health mentioned in this post.

Enjoy your thread.

So you admit that you have a mental illness when you talk about "No-planes"? Bravo, bravo!

[Thunder]

It seems to me that possibly Nazi doctors might have considered people who said the SS were gassing Jews in chambers disguised as showers to have been psychotic or schizophrenic....

the Nazis also accused ANYONE who disagreed with them of being traitors, spies, and are part of a conspiracy.

sorta like what many Truthers say about debunkers

[little grey rabbit]

See what your problem is LGR? You didn't like it when McGyver started talking about submarines, but it's ok for you to start talking about the "illuminati". So McGyver made a fair move about submarines, crying about it can't solve your problem about the "illuminati". .

?????????

I would like to think there was some rational thought process behind this statement, but I can't find it.

I was simply giving an example what plausible deniability is. The example I gave is someone trying to covertly issue a threat but if called upon he could say "Oh no, I was talking about something completely different".

As it happens this is a noted tactic of the 911-supporting Illuminati.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

?????????

I would like to think there was some rational thought process behind this statement, but I can't find it.

I was simply giving an example what plausible deniability is. The example I gave is someone trying to covertly issue a threat but if called upon he could say "Oh no, I was talking about something completely different".

As it happens this is a noted tactic of the 911-supporting Illuminati.

There you go with the "Illuminati" connection again! WTF man?

[JihadJane]

Yawn!

[dafydd]

The non-existent Illuminati? How can the Little Grey Rabbi expect us not to laugh at him?

[Thunder]

As it happens this is a noted tactic of the 911-supporting Illuminati.

posts like this justify the thread.

[Scott Sommers]

I had given up for a while that JREf had anything new to show me. Everything appeared to be the same agruments recycled over and over, sometimes by the same people pretending they are different people. But now I see why one would stick around year after year. There are new things to be seen here.

911 Truth is now the only place I have ever seen where people are proud to have been diagnosed as mentally ill. Some actually seem to brag about it.

[carlitos]

You may wish to visit a gang-stalking forum. Puts 9/11 truth to shame.

[Scott Sommers]

You may wish to visit a gang-stalking forum. Puts 9/11 truth to shame.

You weren't joking. I googled gang stalk and there are dozens of forums. Holy molly, I have stumbled into the weird world of formalized insanity.

[carlitos]

Veering back to our own little slice of 9/11 discussion, I found this at Gang Stalking World.

Directed Energy Weapons

Sheild as best as you can. I find some materials work better than others. Different rooms provide better shielding than others. I also find some combinations of clothing sheild better than others. Eg. Some materials make your legs feel like they are being burnt more than others. I guess they are better conductors, where others almost numb the sensation. Play around with different fabrics.
It all ties together!

[A W Smith]

You weren't joking. I googled gang stalk and there are dozens of forums. Holy molly, I have stumbled into the weird world of formalized insanity.


Gang stalking? Wow, Consequences will never be the same!

2VKYYbwyWtQ

[Fonebone]

Veering back to our own little slice of 9/11 discussion, I found this at Gang Stalking World.
Quote:
Directed Energy Weapons

Sheild as best as you can. I find some materials work better than others. Different rooms provide better shielding than others. I also find some combinations of clothing sheild better than others. Eg. Some materials make your legs feel like they are being burnt more than others. I guess they are better conductors, where others almost numb the sensation. Play around with different fabrics.


It all ties together!

How so ? Splain'it to me
DIRECTED ENERGY weapon (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2008/02/28/image3888934g.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/29/60minutes/main3891865.shtml&usg=__PYpxUFrcuKPnUHCBBIRbelTX6Gc=&h=183&w=244&sz=13&hl=en&start=32&itbs=1&tbnid=WnmD9t6H_nT4fM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dweapons%2Bcrowd%2Bcontrol%2Bnon%2Blet hal%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ADB F_enUS314US314%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1)

[JihadJane]

I had given up for a while that JREf had anything new to show me. Everything appeared to be the same agruments recycled over and over, sometimes by the same people pretending they are different people. But now I see why one would stick around year after year. There are new things to be seen here.

911 Truth is now the only place I have ever seen where people are proud to have been diagnosed as mentally ill. Some actually seem to brag about it.

Where else have you looked?

[Scott Sommers]

Where else have you looked?

Maybe your right. There might be other places where people brag about being diagnosed as mentally ill that I haven't seen. In fact, I'd never seen such a thing before, until I started talking with 911 Truthers.

But I conceed your point. There may be groups of people even more sick than the Truthers who hang around posting on 911 Truth forums. Being a Truther, I can udnerstand you've had more experience with this kind of person, so I accept your speculation there are people worse off mentally.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[JihadJane]

Maybe your right. There might be other places where people brag about being diagnosed as mentally ill that I haven't seen. In fact, I'd never seen such a thing before, until I started talking with 911 Truthers.

But I conceed your point. There may be groups of people even more sick than the Truthers who hang around posting on 911 Truth forums. Being a Truther, I can udnerstand you've had more experience with this kind of person, so I accept your speculation there are people worse off mentally.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Apparently, you have lived a very sheltered life!

[Scott Sommers]

Apparently, you have lived a very sheltered life!

Sheltered is typically not how people describe my life. But I do have no doubt that hearing people boast about their diagnosed mental illnesses is much more a part of your life that mine.

[Miragememories]

Sheltered is typically not how people describe my life. But I do have no doubt that hearing people boast about their diagnosed mental illnesses is much more a part of your life that mine.
Good luck.

No doubt the diagnosis will come soon.

Follow the prescribed meds regime and there will be hope for you.

MM

[johnny karate]

Good luck.

No doubt the diagnosis will come soon.

Follow the prescribed meds regime and there will be hope for you.

What meds do you recommend for someone having paranoid delusions about George Bush planning to attack America with a nuclear weapons in order to declare himself dictator (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=6197807#post6197807)?

[Miragememories]

What meds do you recommend for someone having paranoid delusions about George Bush planning to attack America with a nuclear weapons in order to declare himself dictator (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=6197807#post6197807)?
People like yourself, who apparently have no understanding of context or speculation are beyond hope.

Continue your rant, I know it is all you live for.

Too funny.

MM

[johnny karate]

I can't guess when, but sometime before the next presidential elections I expect a second 9/11 type incident.

I expect a second 9/11 type incident.

I expect a second 9/11 type incident.

Sorry MM, but your words are right there for everyone to read. You were not "speculating"; you said flat-out your were expecting another attack. No one is buying this desperate attempt to downplay your colossal embarrassment.

And that fact that you repeatedly accuse other people of being delusional makes it all the more entertaining.

[dafydd]

Edited for rule 12.

[Scott Sommers]

Edited for quote of modded post.


We can make all the jokes we want about this, but it does lead to a very interesting observation about the Truth Movement and the battle against the NWO.

The forums where they generate their ideas about the world's demise are filled with people who are mentally ill. And we don't even have to speculate on this. Their doctors have diagnosed this.

When you talk to a typical man-on-the-street conspiracy sort of fellow, they may be weird, but they are perfectly capable of getting past a psychiatrist without a prescription for Invega. The folks I talk with on the net about what they think are 'anti-government' ideas, have no idea where these come from. My guess is that most of my conspiracy net friends would be just as horrified by these guys as we are. They wouldn't go near them or let their children near them. Yet they unknowingly spread ideas that originated in their babblings on forums like this.

This is a very strange problem.

[jj-158]

I find it very disturbing that a group of self-identifying skeptics are so eager to diagnose mental illness in people they haven't even met, nor are qualified to do so.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I find it very disturbing that a group of self-identifying skeptics are so eager to diagnose mental illness in people they haven't even met, nor are qualified to do so.

You find it disturbing when someone calls a spade a spade?

[Orphia Nay]

You have a problem with skeptics believing the diagnosis of a mental health professional over the patient's self-diagnosis?

[jj-158]

You find it disturbing when someone calls a spade a spade?

You have a problem with skeptics believing the diagnosis of a mental health professional over the patient's self-diagnosis?

We are not talking about whether people are of a conservative leaning or not, or whether they like Liverpool better than Everton.

We are talking about people who could be having a serious mental illness. Or not.

How do we know that the person claiming to be a mental health professional really is one?

And even if that person is, how ethical is it to diagnose people with mental illnesses based on what they read on the Internet?

Frankly, I don't see a lot of critical thinking here. More like mob mentality.

[Orphia Nay]

How do we know that the person claiming to be a mental health professional really is one?

I'm talking about the truther who says he was diagnosed as mentally ill. Who are you talking about?

[jj-158]

I'm talking about the truther who says he was diagnosed as mentally ill. Who are you talking about?

The same.

....what, you take the word of a truther? :D

[Scott Sommers]

I find it very disturbing that a group of self-identifying skeptics are so eager to diagnose mental illness in people they haven't even met, nor are qualified to do so.

I have almost finished a PhD in Educational Psychology, so I not entirely unquaified. But that really is not the issue.

And it is at this point I have stop and ask, did you actually read any of this thread? The people we are talking about here stated they had been treated by medical professionals for mental illness. The point is that some significant number of people involved in the Truth Movement talk freely about this experince - which is, once again - being treated by medical professionals for mental illness.

Is there still anything confusing you about this? If there is, I am sure all your questions can be answered by actually reading what was posted here. But keeping in the tradition of 911 Truth, even if there is answer posted in front of you, you are aware of it, and everyone here knows that you know the answer...please don't hesitate to ask it again.

[jj-158]

I have almost finished a PhD in Educational Psychology, so I not entirely unquaified. But that really is not the issue.

And I can say that I have a better education than you.

Would you believe me, if I did?

And it is at this point I have stop and ask, did you actually read any of this thread? The people we are talking about here stated they had been treated by medical professionals for mental illness. The point is that some significant number of people involved in the Truth Movement talk freely about this experince - which is, once again - being treated by medical professionals for mental illness.

Some significant number? What number is that?

Is there still anything confusing you about this? If there is, I am sure all your questions can be answered by actually reading what was posted here. But keeping in the tradition of 911 Truth, even if there is answer posted in front of you, you are aware of it, and everyone here knows that you know the answer...please don't hesitate to ask it again.

That you think I am a truther merely stresses my point: That people here seem to be extremely eager to jump to unfounded conclusions.

[Scott Sommers]

And I can say that I have a better education than you.

Would you believe me, if I did?



Some significant number? What number is that?



That you think I am a truther merely stresses my point: That people here seem to be extremely eager to jump to unfounded conclusions.

This is rapidly descending into one of those silly things about how a 'true' skeptic questions absolutely everything. I doubt very many people here really want to go there.

In keeping with my other observations, there is no point at which I said you were a Truther. Perhaps you should read my comment again.

In answer to your question about numbers, clearly you have not read the thread. If you had, you would know the answer to this question. Until you do, I think I will not be answering any of your questions.

[jj-158]

This is rapidly descending into one of those silly things about how a 'true' skeptic questions absolutely everything. I doubt very many people here really want to go there.

Now you are jumping to conclusions again: That is not my position at all. I merely asked why we should believe you, when anyone could say they had your education.


In keeping with my other observations, there is no point at which I said you were a Truther. Perhaps you should read my comment again.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your comment about "keeping in the tradition of 911 Truth". What did you mean?

In answer to your question about numbers, clearly you have not read the thread. If you had, you would know the answer to this question. Until you do, I think I will not be answering any of your questions.

I fail to see any survey of the total number of Truth-members, that's all. If you don't have that, there is no way you could some significant number of people involved in the Truth Movement talk freely about being treated by medical professionals for mental illness.

Nobody knows how many truthers there are. So, you cannot say that a significant number of them talk freely about being treated by medical professionals for mental illness.

You have seen some truthers do that. But that is all you can say.

[T.A.M.]

I find it very disturbing that a group of self-identifying skeptics are so eager to diagnose mental illness in people they haven't even met, nor are qualified to do so.

You are quite correct. The DIAGNOSIS of a mental illness requires a full history and physical as well as the expertise of a medical professional.

That is why in threads such as these i try to confine my comments to general observations on behaviour patterns i see in members of the truth movement.

TAM:)

Edit: btw, i am qualified to do so.

[jj-158]

You are quite correct. The DIAGNOSIS of a mental illness requires a full history and physcial as well as the expertise of a medical professional.

That is why in threads such as these i try to confine my comments to general observations on behaviour patterns i see in members of the truth movement.

TAM:)

Quite right.

[A W Smith]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200809/paranoia-911-and-the-roots-conspiracy-theories


http://books.google.com/books?id=8tX17AXujekC&pg=PP11&dq=%22implausible+visions+of+a+lunatic+fringe%22&hl=en&ei=aq9oTPawJIS8lQedsKChBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22implausible%20visions%20of%20a%20lunatic%20fr inge%22&f=false

[Thunder]

Fact: many Truthers appear to experience feelings and emotions, that would classify one as being mentally ill.

[Scott Sommers]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200809/paranoia-911-and-the-roots-conspiracy-theories


http://books.google.com/books?id=8tX17AXujekC&pg=PP11&dq=%22implausible+visions+of+a+lunatic+fringe%22&hl=en&ei=aq9oTPawJIS8lQedsKChBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22implausible%20visions%20of%20a%20lunatic%20fr inge%22&f=false

While it is true that the writers of this article are 'professionals', they are probably not 'qualified' in the sense that T.A.M meant it when he said
...Edit: btw, i am qualified to do so.

Both of them are described as "social psychologists". They would probably have no legal ability to label anyone as mentally ill. Their use of the terms "paranoid" and "paranoia" is not meant to be used as a diagnosis of mental illness. In fact, nowhere in the article is paranoia referred to as a mental illness.

What T.A.M. is probably referring to with them term "qualified" is his ability as a licensed physician to have people treated medically, even against their will, because of his professional belief in their mental illness - T.A.M. Would that be right?

What I was referring in my post was also quite different from either of these. I am genuinely surprised at the number of Truthers who talk openly about having been diagnosed by a physicianas mentally ill. Some of them have even boasted about this as if it's some sort of statement of protest.

That is, unless it's those pesky shapeshifting reptiles pretending their Truthers and spreading disinfo.

[jj-158]

I am genuinely surprised at the number of Truthers who talk openly about having been diagnosed by a physicianas mentally ill.

Number compared to what? Unless you can compare it to the whole group, you only have unsubstantiated belief. That is hardly the skeptical way to go about these things.

Some of them have even boasted about this as if it's some sort of statement of protest.

Wouldn't that imply that some perhaps are merely bragging? Perhaps that group haven't even gotten a medical diagnosis at all, but merely wanted to 'fit in' - as perverted as it admittedly sounds.

I don't see why you mistrust what truthers say, except when they speak - boast, even - of just how crazy they are.

[jj-158]

scott.in.taiwan,

What if the group in question was not truthers, but skeptics?

'The people we are talking about here stated they had been treated by medical professionals for mental illness. The point is that some significant number of people involved in skepticism talk freely about this experience - which is, once again - being treated by medical professionals for mental illness.'

You would never, ever, accept such a claim.

Yet, when it is truthers, you accept it - and demand that we accept it, too - happily, blindly, without question.

[T.A.M.]

Scott,

You are correct, as a licenced gp i can confine someone against their will for 24h. I can do so only ifin my judgement the patient is a danger to themselves, others, or their property. After 24h, another physician assessment and signature is needed to hold the patient.

That said, by qualified, i meant that i am qualified to assess and diagnose someone with mental illness.

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

Scott,

You are correct, as a licenced gp i can confine someone against their will for 24h. I can do so only ifin my judgement the patient is a danger to themselves, others, or their property. After 24h, another physician assessment and signature is needed to hold the patient.

That said, by qualified, i meant that i am qualified to assess and diagnose someone with mental illness.

TAM:)

But I presume you agree there are a significant number of people involved with 911 Truth who could benefit from quite dramatic medical intervention. I would include here, 911 Truth knowledge sources such as Jeff Hill.

[Thunder]

most debunkers do not exhibit paranoia, delusions, or homocidal or violent fantasies towards public officials. that is why we are not mentally ill.

[dafydd]

most debunkers do not exhibit paranoia, delusions, or homocidal or violent fantasies towards public officials. that is why we are not mentally ill.

All debunkers do not believe that the planes that hit the Twin Towers were holograms.

[T.A.M.]

But I presume you agree there are a significant number of people involved with 911 Truth who could benefit from quite dramatic medical intervention. I would include here, 911 Truth knowledge sources such as Jeff Hill.

What I would say, and this is as a medical professional, is that the pervasive, and as far as I can see unjustified, paranoia that is common in many "truthers" leads me to believe that there would be a higher then average (compared to the general population) number of individuals suffering from various personality disorders within the group who identify themselves as the truth movement.

On an individual basis, of course, a full history and physical would be in order before an official diagnosis is made.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

most debunkers do not exhibit paranoia, delusions, or homocidal or violent fantasies towards public officials. that is why we are not mentally ill.

This is important. For instance, I do not feel there would be any increase in mental illnesses in those who believe we have been visited by aliens, or by those who believe in Bigfoot.

However, I think there would be an increase in said illnesses in the population that believe the moon landing was a hoax, and the anti vaxxers.

It is the paranoia that is the key...the unfounded paranoia.

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

Thank you T.A.M. This is what I was wondering about. I agree that 911 Truth appears to be quite different from other logically similar belief systems. Maybe I'm wrong there, that they are logically similar. Anyway, I can't shake the feeling that it is the content of 911 that seems 'interesting' and attractive to certain types of disturbed individuals. The idea of a body of knowledge created by and for a subculture whose members are disproportionately mentally ill is very strange. These are not institutionalized individuals and their knowledge is being used in an entrepreneurial way.