Are there really any benefits to meditation?

[eijah]

Over the years, I have heard all kinds of enthusiastic claims about the benefits of meditation. But I also know that inviting people to join meditation groups is often used to suck victims into cults. So what do skeptics think of at least individual meditation?

[Cainkane1]

Over the years, I have heard all kinds of enthusiastic claims about the benefits of meditation. But I also know that inviting people to join meditation groups is often used to suck victims into cults. So what do skeptics think of at least individual meditation?
If you do it on your own you can lower your blood pressure using meditation. I've heard it is useful in disorders such as depression and anxiety.

[uke2se]

If you do it on your own you can lower your blood pressure using meditation. I've heard it is useful in disorders such as depression and anxiety.

Pretty much this I'd wager. As a relaxation tool it could surely work. Stress-relief is important, after all.

[eijah]

Yes. I've heard those stories too. But we all hear a lot of stories about all kinds of things that supposedly work. Crystals, copper bracelets, you name it. When and where does meditation actually work? And when and if so, why and how?

[Cainkane1]

If nothing else it makes you feel better even if it really isn't helping you.

[Fnord]

Meditation puts me to sleep. In that context, it's better than drugs. Plus, there's no hangover the next morning.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

What Fnord said.

~~ Paul

[Her Dark Star]

Meditation can be used for a number things, the most basic (and generally most useful) is simply to reduce your stress level, a way to unwind without taking up too much of your time. High stress can affect your health so by reducing it meditation can help.
You can also use it to help focus your mind on or away from problems and other psychological benefits, kind of like positive mental attitude or self hynosis and other such things but in most casing its just about de-stressing. If people start talking about cosmic consciousness or becoming one with universal energy then yeah, you're into cult territory.

[Dancing David]

Mindfullness

[Deranged]

If it doesn't do anything , then why have people been practicing it for five thousand years?

[eijah]

If it doesn't do anything , then why have people been practicing it for five thousand years?

That answer does not seem very logical. People have been practicing religion for five thousand years too.

[Deranged]

Because religion does affect people just like meditation.;) So they've all survived.

[Hellbound]

We've practiced war (or combat, at least) for longer.

ETA: Slavery, also. And murder. Ritual sacrifice.

And cannibalism has likely been practiced in some areas for at least that long, although I'd have to verify that one.

The length of time something has been practiced is no indication of its correctness. There were a lot of things done for extended periods of time that had no benefit or were actively detrimental (such as the thought that bathing was somehow bad for you).

Besides, if they've been practicing that long, you'd think someone would have gotten it right by now :D.

[Giggywig]

THe length of time something has been practiced is no indication fo it's correctness. There were a lot of things done for extended periods of time that had no benefit or were actively detrimental (such as the thought that bathing was somehow bad for you).
As Kumar is fond of saying "Mass existing and well distributed since long."

[Hellbound]

Gah! My typos! I always see them after I'm quoted *sigh* :)

[Deranged]

We've practiced war (or combat, at least) for longer.

ETA: Slavery, also. And murder. Ritual sacrifice.

And cannibalism has likely been practiced in some areas for at least that long, although I'd have to verify that one.

The length of time something has been practiced is no indication of its correctness. There were a lot of things done for extended periods of time that had no benefit or were actively detrimental (such as the thought that bathing was somehow bad for you).

Besides, if they've been practicing that long, you'd think someone would have gotten it right by now :D.
Did I saw it was correct? If something is practiced for THOUSANDS OF YEARS it tends to be USEFUL. Not right; not good; not moral. Useful.

[Hellbound]

Did I saw it was correct? If something is practiced for THOUSANDS OF YEARS it tends to be USEFUL. Not right; not good; not moral. Useful.

No, no it doesn't. See slavery, ritual sacrifice, cannibalism.

At best, it's as useful as any relaxation technique (i.e.-a good hobby).

[MattusMaximus]

I regularly practice a form of meditation called zazen. It helps me to focus my mind & relax, plus it helps me to develop good posture & more efficient breathing. I also tend to sleep better if I do it right before going to bed.

I'm sure that world peace is just around the corner ;)

ETA: My sensei, who is also a Zen priest, once told me that the whole notion of achieving "enlightenment" through meditation was hooey. He said that it is essentially an exercise, nothing more.

[Squidgy]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.

Comparing it to war, religion and slavery is a poor attempt to discredit it...Still, I expect nothing less from certain members of this forum, just round everything off into a group of woo and then you don't have to think about it. :rolleyes:

[bit_pattern]

Yes. I've heard those stories too. But we all hear a lot of stories about all kinds of things that supposedly work. Crystals, copper bracelets, you name it. When and where does meditation actually work? And when and if so, why and how?

Always a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

I'm sure that page will have its share of woo but it also cites credible research.

[eijah]

Always a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

I'm sure that page will have its share of woo but it also cites credible research.

I think you just provided us with a great service! From the Research_on_medition page...

Adverse effects

Both positive rewards and potential benefits of meditation have been noted in academic literature. However, according to a few sources, the practice of meditation is not free from side-effects [23][24]. Adverse effects have been reported, and may, in some cases, be the result of "improper use of meditation" [24]. That is, meditation may produce adverse effects in certain circumstances.

Among the side-effects that have been reported we find those mentioned by Craven [25]: uncomfortable kinaesthetic sensations, mild dissociation, feelings of guilt and, via anxiety-provoking phenomena, psychosis-like symptoms, grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings [26]. From a clinical study of twenty-seven long term meditators, Shapiro [27] found that subjects reported significantly more positive effects than negative from meditation. However, of the twenty-seven subjects, seventeen (62.9%) reported at least one adverse effect, and two (7.4%) suffered profound adverse effects. Among these we find: relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation [28].

In addition, the concept of meditation is sometimes associated with spiritual practices. Some of which may be characterized as "intensive". However, intensive spiritual practices, associated with Asian traditions, are problematic. Psychiatric literature [24] notes that: Since the influx of eastern spiritual practices and the rising popularity of meditation starting in the 1960s, many people have experienced a variety of psychological difficulties, either while engaged in intensive spiritual practice or spontaneously.

Particularly in the Chinese Qigong tradition, stories of unguided practitioners or inexpertly guided students developing chronic mental and physical health problems as a result of their attempts at meditation training are not uncommon. English speaking practitioners and teachers of Qigong and related disciplines note that the practice of this contemplative exercise is sometimes accompanied by physical and psychological distress[citation needed]. The identification of this syndrome has led to the inclusion of a culture-sensitive category in the DSM-IV called Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction [29].

Meditative traditions which include the use of drugs are by some considered to be harmful to the practitioner. Additionally, as with any practice, meditation may also be used to avoid facing ongoing problems or emerging crises in the meditator's life. In such situations, it may be helpful to apply mindful attitudes acquired in meditation while actively engaging with current problems.[30]

[Fnord]

All that meditation is consistently good for is relaxation of the body and mind -- only this, and nothing more.

It does not grant psychic abilities.

It does not cure diseases or regenerate lost limbs.

It does not make one's body less dependent on air, food or water.

It does not make a person immune to extremes of heat or cold.

It may allow your conscious mind to quiet down long enough for your unconscious mind to give you an "Ah-HAH!" moment that enables you to solve a tough problem. A good night's sleep may do this, too.

It may allow you to calm down to a more rational state when you would really rather beat the ever-living snot out of some jackass that really deserves it. But then, a good healthy round of coital activity with someone you love may calm you down just as well.

It also looks cool when you're trying to impress that good-looking vegan yoga instructor ... unless you happen to be a good-looking vegan yoga instructor, in which case, it just makes you look even more cool!

[eijah]

Meditation can be used for a number things, the most basic (and generally most useful) is simply to reduce your stress level, a way to unwind without taking up too much of your time. High stress can affect your health so by reducing it meditation can help.
You can also use it to help focus your mind on or away from problems and other psychological benefits, kind of like positive mental attitude or self hynosis and other such things but in most casing its just about de-stressing. If people start talking about cosmic consciousness or becoming one with universal energy then yeah, you're into cult territory.

So what is good or best to focus on? A word or sound that you keep saying to yourself over and over, or looking steadily at a static mandala? I've heard that looking repeatedly at a dynamic mandala or something like that can be very helpful. Nor for attaining universal consciousness, but for getting as quickly/easily as one can to one's meditation "zone".

[MattusMaximus]

So what is good or best to focus on? A word or sound that you keep saying to yourself over and over, or looking steadily at a static mandala? I've heard that looking repeatedly at a dynamic mandala or something like that can be very helpful. Nor for attaining universal consciousness, but for getting as quickly/easily as one can to one's meditation "zone".

Basically, what I do is focus on my breathing. I inhale through my nose, and as I exhale (also through my nose) I try to make the exhalation last for at least 10 seconds - while I exhale I count the number "one" in my head. Then I repeat, and on the next exhalation I count "two" in my head. Repeat this process all the way up to "ten" on the exhalation, and then cycle back to "one".

It is way more difficult to do than it sounds, because 99.9% of the time you find your mind wandering or getting distracted with something, and then you realize you've lost count. If that happens, and it will, you simply go back to "one".

Clearing your mind completely so that all you think about is the breathing & counting is very, very hard. That's part of the point of the exercise.

[eijah]

Basically, what I do is focus on my breathing. I inhale through my nose, and as I exhale (also through my nose) I try to make the exhalation last for at least 10 seconds - while I exhale I count the number "one" in my head. Then I repeat, and on the next exhalation I count "two" in my head. Repeat this process all the way up to "ten" on the exhalation, and then cycle back to "one".

It is way more difficult to do than it sounds, because 99.9% of the time you find your mind wandering or getting distracted with something, and then you realize you've lost count. If that happens, and it will, you simply go back to "one".

Clearing your mind completely so that all you think about is the breathing & counting is very, very hard. That's part of the point of the exercise.

Thanks, that is very helpful. But it raises a question. Per your,

"Clearing your mind completely so that all you think about is the breathing & counting is very, very hard. That's part of the point of the exercise."

when do you stop even thinking about breathing and counting?

[SusanB-M1]

A poster (on another forum) said that if I wanted to challenge meditation, I should try it. Okay, fair enough. I started by sitting comfortably with no distractions and not paying attention to anything. I decided to count my breathing. I did not concentrate on breathing out slowly or anything, just on number of in-out. In-out, 1, again, 1, third time, 1. In-out, 2, again, 2, third time, 2 and so on until I got to 100. It was quite a pleasant 20 minutes and seemed to be quite relaxing, but then I'm relaxed anyway! After a couple of months, nothing much had changed and, since I am, as I say, a relaxed person, I decided that was enough of that - I'd rather be reading latest posts etc instead of sitting doing nothing.

I have, however, found a use for this. If I have to wait for a train - which happens quite often - I simply sit (or stand) still and composed and count 1(x3), 2(x3) etc for the appropriate number of times and then, voilà, the train arrives!

[jakesteele]

http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Response-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380006766

Check this book and this guy out (http://www.relaxationresponse.org/). He is probably the world's foremost expert on meditation and his book is great because he takes a bunch of different types of meditation (TM, biofeedback, zen stuff, etc.) and strips away all of the religious or cult stuff and boils the techniques down to their very basics and gives you a simple technique you can do yourself for only the cost of the book.

In fact, here is the technique for free:
http://www.relaxationresponse.org/steps/

[eijah]

A poster (on another forum) said that if I wanted to challenge meditation, I should try it. Okay, fair enough. I started by sitting comfortably with no distractions and not paying attention to anything. I decided to count my breathing. I did not concentrate on breathing out slowly or anything, just on number of in-out. In-out, 1, again, 1, third time, 1. In-out, 2, again, 2, third time, 2 and so on until I got to 100. It was quite a pleasant 20 minutes and seemed to be quite relaxing, but then I'm relaxed anyway! After a couple of months, nothing much had changed and, since I am, as I say, a relaxed person, I decided that was enough of that - I'd rather be reading latest posts etc instead of sitting doing nothing.

I have, however, found a use for this. If I have to wait for a train - which happens quite often - I simply sit (or stand) still and composed and count 1(x3), 2(x3) etc for the appropriate number of times and then, voilà, the train arrives!

Hmmm. Very interesting! No need for fancy breathing. But it seems that you still needed/need to count as well as concentrate on your breathing.

Has anyone "progressed" to not thinking about counting? Especially as a prelude for not even thinking about breathing?

That is, is meditation the process of truly thinking about nothing? Or is it the process of just thinking about two things such as breathing and counting, Or is it -- if one advances sufficiently -- the process of thinking about only one thing, such as a mantra?

[LarianLeQuella]

I find that it is very useful to ask certian practitioners of extreme woo to meditate. That way they shut the frak up about their woo...

[cornsail]

However, of the twenty-seven subjects, seventeen (62.9%) reported at least one adverse effect, and two (7.4%) suffered profound adverse effects. Among these we find: relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation [28]

My dad is probably addicted, although in a benign way AFAIK.

[Hellbound]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.

Comparing it to war, religion and slavery is a poor attempt to discredit it...Still, I expect nothing less from certain members of this forum, just round everything off into a group of woo and then you don't have to think about it. :rolleyes:

So it apparently has not helped your reading comprehension or understanding.

I was not attempting to discredit meditation by comparing it to those things. I did not compare meditation itself to those things. What I gave was a counter-argument to the invalid idea that a thing must be useful because it's been around so long. The same argument applies whether it's meditation, fire, science, or anything else. The time it's been around is not an argument that it must be something useful and/or conducive to survival.

If you have any actual evidence to support that meditation has any benefits beyond relaxation, please present it. Until such time, there's really nothing to discuss. I don't play games of "what if".

Of course, from the comment above I can only assume that you aren't really interested in evidence; far easier to cry "evil skeptics!" and avoid having to actually support your assertions.

[mikeyx]

Benefits as I see it;

1) Relaxation/Stress Relief
2) Focus/Concentration
3) Use of visualizations and sometimes symbolism to augment number two.

[tsig]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.

Comparing it to war, religion and slavery is a poor attempt to discredit it...Still, I expect nothing less from certain members of this forum, just round everything off into a group of woo and then you don't have to think about it. :rolleyes:

Shaolin Monks are not religious?

[thatguywhojuggles]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.


What are these super-human like feats?

[tsig]

Benefits as I see it;

1) Relaxation/Stress Relief
2) Focus/Concentration
3) Use of visualizations and sometimes symbolism to augment number two.

4) Keeps the nuts quiet and off the streets.

Yes I have practiced meditation during two years in a seminary and it can help you relax but a couple of beers do the same.

[Squidgy]

So it apparently has not helped your reading comprehension or understanding.

I was not attempting to discredit meditation by comparing it to those things. I did not compare meditation itself to those things. What I gave was a counter-argument to the invalid idea that a thing must be useful because it's been around so long. The same argument applies whether it's meditation, fire, science, or anything else. The time it's been around is not an argument that it must be something useful and/or conducive to survival.

If you have any actual evidence to support that meditation has any benefits beyond relaxation, please present it. Until such time, there's really nothing to discuss. I don't play games of "what if".

Of course, from the comment above I can only assume that you aren't really interested in evidence; far easier to cry "evil skeptics!" and avoid having to actually support your assertions.

You make a fair point, sorry if I misconstrued what you said. I thought you were just saying that because it's not conventional, it must be woo.

I do apologise.

[Squidgy]

Shaolin Monks are not religious?

Shaolin Monks are religious but that doesn't mean that the act of meditating is without value.

[Squidgy]

What are these super-human like feats?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JgMmj4XnEI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qHL2PSpecI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKE5rM1IH_4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llqup1Uir6k&feature=fvw

Those are super-human abilities imo just to show a few, although I imagine you won't even bother watching any of them because you have already made your mind up... Mind over matter, I believe meditation helps these guys accomplish the things they do.

[Squidgy]

4) Keeps the nuts quiet and off the streets.

Yes I have practiced meditation during two years in a seminary and it can help you relax but a couple of beers do the same.

I can't help but agree with you, being a low level alcoholic myself. That is probably why I never bothered to try and practise meditation... Beer drinking was much easier :)

[Hellbound]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.

Comparing it to war, religion and slavery is a poor attempt to discredit it...Still, I expect nothing less from certain members of this forum, just round everything off into a group of woo and then you don't have to think about it. :rolleyes:

You make a fair point, sorry if I misconstrued what you said. I thought you were just saying that because it's not conventional, it must be woo.

I do apologise.

Fair enough, and apology accepted :)

I wasn't saying, necessarily, meditation was woo. I do believe there are some benefits. However, I do NOT believe these benefits extend beyond anything ordinary, like (as others have stated) focus, relaxation, and similar. There are plenty of "woo" claims attached to meditation (the TM stuff, enlightenment, etc), however.

[MattusMaximus]

Thanks, that is very helpful. But it raises a question. Per your,

"Clearing your mind completely so that all you think about is the breathing & counting is very, very hard. That's part of the point of the exercise."

when do you stop even thinking about breathing and counting?

That's supposed to be the next step in the training. I'm no where close to that.

[MattusMaximus]

I have never practised meditation but look at the Shaolin Monks, I am sure they meditate and they are capable of super-human like feats. So yes, I would say there is something to this meditation business.


What are these super-human like feats?

:popcorn1

[LarianLeQuella]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JgMmj4XnEI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qHL2PSpecI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKE5rM1IH_4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llqup1Uir6k&feature=fvw

Those are super-human abilities imo just to show a few, although I imagine you won't even bother watching any of them because you have already made your mind up... Mind over matter, I believe meditation helps these guys accomplish the things they do.


I see nothing "super" human there. Feat performed by well trained and conditioned people, yes, but super human? I think ye be alitterating too much?

[tsig]

I see nothing "super" human there. Feat performed by well trained and conditioned people, yes, but super human? I think ye be alitterating too much?

First video;

I've seen better break dancing.

Super human? There's not a cape among "em.

[Squidgy]

First video;

I've seen better break dancing.

Super human? There's not a cape among "em.

Ok hotshot, can you do that? I doubt it.

[Squidgy]

Reply to LarianLeQuella

Do you even know the meaning of the word 'Alliteration'?

[Squidgy]

Abandon all hope all ye who enter beyond the log in page... Lots of poeple think they are smart :boxedin:

[SusanB-M1]

Hmmm. Very interesting! No need for fancy breathing. But it seems that you still needed/need to count as well as concentrate on your breathing.
The counting is so I can count to the number needed for the waiting time .
Has anyone "progressed" to not thinking about counting? Especially as a prelude for not even thinking about breathing?

That is, is meditation the process of truly thinking about nothing? Or is it the process of just thinking about two things such as breathing and counting, Or is it -- if one advances sufficiently -- the process of thinking about only one thing, such as a mantra?
I don't know, but I wonder why this should be considered to be 'progress'?

[LarianLeQuella]

Reply to LarianLeQuella

Do you even know the meaning of the word 'Alliteration'?


Aw man, I should have put some emoticons there to indicate my sarcasm and general "taking the piss outta ya" attitude in that post... :cool: ("Superhuman Shaolin" was what I was going after by the way... Because there is NOTHING in those videos that indicate anything beyond human ability...)

Look, it doesn't matter whether you or I can do any of the things in those videos at this very moment. Can the said moks perform the Moonlight Sonatta? Does that make my daughter superhuman if she can, but a shoulin monk can't? It's a matter of training and conditioning. That's all I am saying.

Can you fly 125tonnes of metal and gas at 500knots within 12 feet of another 125tonnes of metal and gas? I can and have on numerous occasions, and I find it easy. Does that make me super human? I doubt you can do that, and very few people on this planet can do that so it makes me rather special and unique in that regard, right?

Your standard for "superhuman" is sloppy at best.

[eijah]

The counting is so I can count to the number needed for the waiting time .

I don't know, but I wonder why this should be considered to be 'progress'?

"Progress" in the zazen sense, I suppose. But you do raise a good question about an assumption of mine, which might be quite erroneous.

In any case, in seeking to come up with an answer for you, I came upon this: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003083 . Note that I am not claiming that it supports my original assumption, but some here might find the study of interest.

[Professor Yaffle]

Therapy based on mindfulness meditation is a promising treatment in the prevention of relapse in those with recurrent depression.

http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/mbct.html

[eijah]

Therapy based on mindfulness meditation is a promising treatment in the prevention of relapse in those with recurrent depression.

http://cebmh.warne.ox.ac.uk/csr/mbct.html

Zin Segal's site mbct.com also claims that "MBCT is based on the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) eight-week program, developed by Jon 'Kabat-Zinn. Research shows that MBSR is enormously empowering for patients with chronic pain, hypertension, heart disease, cancer, and gastrointestinal disorders, as well as for psychological problems such as anxiety and panic."

Can I assume they are referring only to reduction of depression resulting from those illnesses, but that MBCT does not otherwise relieve medical aspects of those illnesses? Or is there research on the use of MBCT for the latter as well?

[tsig]

Ok hotshot, can you do that? I doubt it.

I'm not making any superhuman claims.

[Orphia Nay]

http://www.sarahwilson.com.au/2009/12/sunday-life-in-which-the-dalai-lama-tells-me-to-chill/

And so it came to pass that I sit down with arguably the world’s most influential spiritual leader [The Dalai Lama], he kisses my hand and tosses his thongs, and I ask, “How do I get my mind to shut up?” To which His Holiness giggles and blows his nose on three paper serviettes, which he then shoves down the front of his robe, just like my Year 4 teacher, Mrs Makepeace (deadly serious!), used to do. “There’s no use,” he says finally. “Silly! Impossible to acheive! If you can do it, great. If not, waste of time.”

But surely you’re able to do it? “No.” What? “If I sit for a year on mountain, then maybe I do it. But no guarantee. Anyway, I don’t have time.” He’s committed his life to helping other people, the “practice of altruism”, he says. He has better things to do.

So, not to put too fine a point on it…

THE DALIA LAMA CAN’T TURN OFF THE CHATTER IN HIS HEAD EITHER!!!

This is big. Silencing the mind is the aim of meditative practice, which, as a Buddhist for the past 70 years, I would’ve thought he’d have some familiarity with. But the Dalai Lama chose to answer as he did. And in this simple exchange he extends the most gentle, “don’t worry, you’re not alone” hug to all of us out there whose whirring thoughts keep us awake until 4am or reduce us to panic while trying to meditate or trash-talk us into agitated depression.

:)

[Prometheus]

I find that it is very useful to ask certian practitioners of extreme woo to meditate. That way they shut the frak up about their woo...

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but this is actually a good point to take seriously, for pretty much anyone--not just extreme woos. The more people of whatever ilk who are being quiet, the better, as far as I'm concerned!

[Roboramma]

Ok hotshot, can you do that? I doubt it.

By that criteria I'm superhuman.

Unless you can do this:

[Roboramma]

We've practiced war (or combat, at least) for longer.

ETA: Slavery, also. And murder. Ritual sacrifice.

And cannibalism has likely been practiced in some areas for at least that long, although I'd have to verify that one. All of those things are useful to the people who practiced them. The person who took slaves got use out of the slaves, the person who murdered likely did so understanding that the result would be a dead person and found that result useful in some way or another.
And if people didn't think they were going to get something out of wars, they wouldn't start them. Of course, it's a risky proposition: sometimes the aggressor loses, but the risk can also be taken into account.

Mind you, its certainly possible for something to have been practiced for a long time without being useful, but I expect that the majority of things that people have done for thousands of years did tend to be maintained because they found some use in doing so.
That doesn't mean that the use they got is the same one as the use which is advertised, and as I said, it's certainly not always the case.

The length of time something has been practiced is no indication of its correctness. There were a lot of things done for extended periods of time that had no benefit or were actively detrimental (such as the thought that bathing was somehow bad for you).
That's a better example. :)

[NeilC]

Why don't you try it for a few months and report back. Then you'll know for sure. You can buy a book if concerned you are likely to be brainwashed by the course-leader at the local community centre.

[SusanB-M1]

In any case, in seeking to come up with an answer for you, I came upon this: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003083 . Note that I am not claiming that it supports my original assumption, but some here might find the study of interest.
Thank you. The more one can know about the brain, the better, I think.
By the way, do you think the following spelling errors wereaccidental?!
Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia, Untied States of America, 2 Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia, Untied States of America, 3 Department of Biostatistics, The Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, Untied States of America

My screen reader says what's there of course!:)

[Hellbound]

All of those things are useful to the people who practiced them. The person who took slaves got use out of the slaves, the person who murdered likely did so understanding that the result would be a dead person and found that result useful in some way or another.
And if people didn't think they were going to get something out of wars, they wouldn't start them. Of course, it's a risky proposition: sometimes the aggressor loses, but the risk can also be taken into account.

Mind you, its certainly possible for something to have been practiced for a long time without being useful, but I expect that the majority of things that people have done for thousands of years did tend to be maintained because they found some use in doing so.
That doesn't mean that the use they got is the same one as the use which is advertised, and as I said, it's certainly not always the case.


That's a better example. :)

Yeah, yeah. Analogies aren't perfect :p

But yes, there is some use from meditation, as I said, for stress relief/relaxation. And I did think of your objections when I posted my earlier bit, but didn't want to get too bogged down in details. But you are correct.

As to slavery, thoguh, I'd disagree. Yes, the slave-takers got use from the slaves, but for the most part slavery isn't an economically viable practice. Yet it continued to be practiced long after the point when this was true. So while there was some use, the damage/risk/downsides outweighed that. The same general trend can be said for most of the other things I listed...they may be useful sometimes, but generally tend to bring a larger negative than the positive they provide.

(Nice to see someone bring up a valid objection, though, instead of the usual ad homs for comparing meditation to slavery :))

[RVM45]

I would add, that it has been claimed that Meditation was an early form of Biofeedback.

I tried a Search, and couldn't find any reference to Biofeedback on this Forum.

Pending a first rate article thoroughly debunking all the claims of the biofeedback folks, I'm willing to tennatively accept that Biofeedback practicianers can conciously control many bodily functions previously thought to be purely involuntary.

Presumably, modern electronic equipment can train one to control certain processes in a few sessions, that would take years of meditating to accomplish.....

However, while the great majority of Biofeedback techniques are mere stunts.....

Sure, reversing peristalsis is a neat trick--but what can you do with it.....

Presumably the Acolyte who'd spent over a decade learning a score of such stunts, also had a system where the stunts could be combined to give very robust health, good longevity, etc.

Or not.....

.....RVM45 :cool::eek::cool: