Justice Texas Style

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/02/1046540066770.html

(Not andalyn style)




It was the biggest drug bust the town had ever seen, and Tom Coleman was its hero. But then it all went wrong. By Tom Mangold.

On July 23,1999, one-tenth of Tulia's black population was arrested in a much publicised pre-dawn raid. Forty-six people, 39 of them black, were hauled off - half-dressed and unkempt as one tends to be at 4am - to the local jail.

They were charged with numerous drug-dealing offences, most involving dealing in expensive powdered cocaine. Curiously for such a huge drugs bust, no cash, drugs or firearms were uncovered by the ski-masked cops who turned over the defendants' modest homes and shacks.

One week later, the local newspaper, the Tulia Sentinel, celebrated the arrests with unambiguity: "We do not like these scumbags doing business in our town. (They are) a cancer in our community, it's time to give them a major dose of chemotherapy behind bars." And the headline the following week? "Tulia's Streets Cleared of Garbage."





The first prison sentences handed down were so punishing that many defendants knowing only too well what happened to a black drug dealer in a white Texan town, changed their pleas and bargained for the best they could get. The judge handed out a total of 800 years in prison and 100 years on probation. Tulia rejoiced, Coleman's back was sore from the slaps, and he was nominated and awarded Texas Lawman of the Year.



[/quote]

Take Billy Sue Gayler. As we walk round the neat and clean (everything in the white parts of Tulia is neat and clean) museum she runs in town, she quietly and convincingly parades her colour blindness. "At Christmas and Thanksgiving, we help the local Afro-Caribbeans out with cash, we give them turkeys, we help those without decent cookers to cook them. I am known and liked over there." This is true. And yet and yet.

Billy Sue Gayler sat on one of the juries yet couldn't even remember the name of the young black man she sentenced to 53 years in jail (in Texas juries often set the sentence, too). When I ask her about the case I am keen to understand why she believed Coleman but not the young black defendant. "Coleman was honest with us on the stand," she says. "He agreed he was no angel... that he'd been around. His is not an easy job, but he did walk the walk and talk the talk."

Shouldn't lawmen be very close to the angels? "It takes all kinds of us in this world to keep the rest of us alive and to do the things that we know need to be done. So I took it that he was good, the right one for this job."

But the defendant was not accorded the same degree of impartial trust. He had pleaded not guilty, yet something in Billy Sue's breast seemed to demand some kind of public abasement from him despite his plea of innocence. "The way they (defendants) sit there," she tells me angrily, "he didn't turn to us, he didn't give us anything. I waited for him to turn to me and say, to all of us, and say, 'I'm sorry that this has happened', or to say, 'I want to go back and get some education, I want to do better'. I never heard one bit of encouragement from that young man and that young man was old enough to know that he should be running to do better."

But how on earth could this defendant perform such a public mea culpa if he had pleaded not guilty? "I don't know, but I have a feeling, and I'm very intuitive, and I did the best I could do, and I know that he was guilty."

"There is a racial element in all this," says Jeff Blackburn, the Amarillo lawyer working pro-bono for most of the defendants on appeal, "but it's not an overtly racist sort of approach. Frankly, I think the people in a community like Tulia are so racist that they don't know they're racist. They don't need conspiracies or closed doors to take decisions to go after black people because this is how things have been done for a long time. There's a lot of accidental racism involved, much of it racial profiling."

[/quote]

Lucky none of them were found guilty of murder. You have to wonder, even if there was a rogue cop, how could the jury system, which is supposed to be the communities means of keeping an eye on justice system, have failed so badly.

[subgenius]

It turned out that the judge in all the cases had refused to allow the defence lawyers to inform the jury that Coleman's work record was, in his own words "a little spotty". He was, in fact, what Texans call a "Gypsy Cop", freelance paladins who ride from county to county taking short-term contracts with small impoverished sheriffs' departments, then moving on and out. They are men with no real community loyalty, poorly paid bottom feeders in the deep sea of law enforcement in Texas.

Coleman's previous job as a sheriff's deputy in Cochran County ended in tears when he walked out in the middle of a shift owing $7000 locally in unpaid bills and facing a charge of stealing government property. The sheriff then sent a note to the state's main employment office for lawmen in Texas reporting unequivocally: "It is in my opinion that an officer should uphold the law. Mr Coleman should not be in law enforcement if he is going to do people the way he did this town."

But when the Sheriff of Tulia hired Coleman, he did not bother to check on that less than glowing recommendation. "I liked Coleman," drawled the Sheriff in his office, "he was a very outgoing man, very clean cut, I felt good about him. No, I didn't ask if there were any notes on his file." Does he think perhaps he should have asked? "Possibly," he smiled, "it would have been a good question."

So a jury, ignorant of Coleman's background, overheated by the prejudices of a local newspaper editor, and dazzled by Coleman's undoubted glamour (he is the son of a Texas Ranger, lawmen with semi-divine status in the state), slammed the door on impartiality and doubt.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/02/1046540066770.html

All it takes for evil to triumph.

[a_unique_person]

You do have to wonder about a president, who professes his crusade for global justice, bu ran a ramshakle justice system in his own state and used murder of innocent people to get himself elected.

I just can't believe anything the guy says.

[Skeptic]

I just can't believe anything the guy says. [/QUOTE]

Why not?

If Bush is such a dictatorial, illegitimate murderer, he should be right up your alley, and one of your heroes. You believe (or at least "understand") everything Saddam and Arafat say, for example, or the unsupported word of death row inmates.

So why not believe and support one more murderer? It's what you DO, after all...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I just can't believe anything the guy says.

Why not?

If Bush is such a dictatorial, illegitimate murderer, he should be right up your alley, and one of your heroes. You believe (or at least "understand") everything Saddam and Arafat say, for example, or the unsupported word of death row inmates.

So why not believe and support one more murderer? It's what you DO, after all... [/QUOTE]

yawn. i have explained what i have meant by the word unerstanding many times. it is incredible how you wilfully ignore what i have said. it must be just as boring for you as it is for me.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You do have to wonder about a president, who professes his crusade for global justice, bu(t) ran a ramshakle justice system in his own state...

In the interest of correctness, the Governor of the State of Texas (http://www.governor.state.tx.us) does not "run" the criminal justice system.

...and used murder of innocent people to get himself elected.

:confused:

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Wolverine


In the interest of correctness, the Governor of the State of Texas (http://www.governor.state.tx.us) does not "run" the criminal justice system.



:confused:
You are confused.
He does run the system. Appointments of judges, etc. The blurring of the seperation of powers is a major problem in our country.

[Wolverine]

Confused? No.

Pedantic? You bet. :)

I take issue with inaccuracy and generalization.

There is a marked difference between appointing an individual to head a specific position, department, or agency, and "running the CJ system."

Most judicial positions are filled by election, not appointment. Regarding appointees (judicial or otherwise), they still must be confirmed by the State Senate.

[subgenius]

Oh, come on, there's got to be a way to pin this on the guv.;)
But back to rogue cops.

[Skeptic]

In the interest of correctness, the Governor of the State of Texas (http://www.governor.state.tx.us) does not "run" the criminal justice system.

Don't confuse AUP with facts.

[Skeptic]

It is incredible how you wilfully ignore what i have said

Of course I'm ignoring it.

I much rather judge you by how you actually post--who you actually support (murderers and terrorists) and who you actually ignore and belittle (their victims and/or those who fight the terrorists and murderers)--instead of listening to your lame explanations of the "true reasons" and "what you really mean" by your posts.

I just don't believe your excuses, that's all.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Skeptic
It is incredible how you wilfully ignore what i have said

Of course I'm ignoring it.

I much rather judge you by how you actually post--who you actually support (murderers and terrorists) and who you actually ignore and belittle (their victims and/or those who fight the terrorists and murderers)--instead of listening to your lame explanations of the "true reasons" and "what you really mean" by your posts.

I just don't believe your excuses, that's all.

So what you're saying is that you ignore postings from people who don't uncritically support whatever your government happens to be doing?

How is that being a skeptic, Skeptic? Surely you should be equally skeptical of the claims and methods of both "sides".

[Smalso]

If one person was denied due process and a fair trial, the system has failed us all. If one innocent person goes to prison, the system has failed us all. I am constantly amazed at those who make excuses and try to defend such outrages as this.

[Gregor]

Texas governors probably have the smallest role in selecting and governing the judiciary of any state governor.

All levels of judges are elected. Sitting district judges by their county. First level appellate judges by districts (14 groups of counties). The Court of Criminal Appeals by state-wide election.

The review of actions by sitting district judges is to the state government. The governor has no role.

Rarely, the governor will appoint a judge to fill a vacancy, but in a state with 25 million people and 254 counties, don't expect the governor to be involved in that selection process.

Thus, don't try and pin this on W.

[Skeptic]

So what you're saying is that you ignore postings from people who don't uncritically support whatever your government happens to be doing?

No. I ignore postings from people who CLAIM their real motive is "just fair criticism", "not to uncritically support whatever the government is doing", but IN EFFECT criticize EVERYTHING the government is doing, while criticizing NOTHING murderers and terrorists do, but instead "understanding" them.

How is that being a skeptic, Skeptic? Surely you should be equally skeptical of the claims and methods of both "sides".

OF COURSE I should I should NOT be "equally skeptical" of the claims of the US government and Al Quaeda, for the same reason I should not be "equally skeptical" of a raped woman's claim and a serial rapist's excuse, for instance, or of a death-row murderer's cock-and-bull story about how he was "railroaded" and the story told by the cops who arrested him and the relatives of his victim. Should I be "equally skeptical" of a known arsonist's claim that the fire was started by the fireman and of the fireman's claim that it was started by the arsonist?

But, to repeat, the argument about the morality of "fair treatment" is almost irrelevant in AUP's case. To repeart, AUP ISN'T criticizing both sides. He just CLAIMS to be. He ONLY criticizes the US, and more generally those who fight against terroirsm and crime (e.g., cops, soldiers, judges) while ONLY praising and "understanding" the poor, misunderstood death-row murderer, terorrist, dictator, and criminal.

[Wolverine]

I will be very eager to see the results of the investigations into this incident now being conducted by the Texas Attorney General's Office as well as the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.

If indeed the information presented about Coleman is correct, he's the party that should be incarcerated. Swisher County District Attorney Terry McEachern should be held equally responsible (I'm frankly surprised McEachern wasn't discussed in any greater detail in the article).

The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, as of the end of December, has sent back cases to the 242nd District Court "for clarification on whether evidence that may have impeached the testimony of the undercover officer, Tom Coleman, was not turned over to the defense or admitted at trial,"¹ where the matters will be reviewed by a different judge... the original presiding judge has recused (not excused, as stated in the article's text) himself from the matter for the most part.

In January of last year, Governor Perry placed the narcotics task forces in question under the control of the Texas Department of Public Safety (state police). DPS control should indeed prevent similar incidents from taking place in the future; the agency operates under exponentially higher standards and absolutely will not tolerate this sort of crap.

The bogus actions of a select few yokels should not represent in any way Texas' law enforcement community or CJ system as a whole (let alone the Governor). This has indeed been a complex case which exposed legal snafus for the Attorney General as well as the Governor in seeking a swift conclusion. Measures have been taken to ensure this sort of BS won't happen again, and I remain optimistic that justice will be done.

When I learn of updates pertaining to this case I shall post them.

¹ Amarillo Globe-News, 12/31/02

[Wolverine]

Thanks, Gregor, I was hoping to see another Texan participate on this thread.

Howdy neighbor. :)

[Gregor]

Guten tag to you, as well.

What's traffic like in Austin, now that the painted-faced ladies are in session? I might be flying in next week.

[Wolverine]

Downtown is an utter mess at times amidst construction and partygoers. Avoid I-35 like the plague, if possible.

That wraps up traffic. Now, sports...

[c0rbin]

I will sound off as a Texan and hoot loudly LeFevre's sig found on many a t-shirt in this, the lone-star state:

"F*ck you, I'm from Texas."

I'm not proud of Bush, but I am proud of America and of Texas. I let the first country or state in the world that is without sin cast the first stone...

[a_unique_person]

George Bush: Murderer?
Editorial

Texas Gov. George W. Bush claims that he can sleep comfortably at night, resting assured that the dozens of people he has personally condemned to death were in fact guilty.
By any measure, Bush's swaggering certainty says more about his intellectual and emotional depth than it does about the relative guilt or innocence of the men and women who have been executed in what Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and other international monitoring authorities describe as Texas' barbaric, error-ridden program of state-sponsored killing.

Because the Texas executions are generally carried out in the shadows of public indifference and official malice that characterize that state's "justice'' system, Bush has until now been able to claim ignorance of case details that might have troubled his sleep.




http://www.commondreams.org/views/062200-106.htm

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I will sound off as a Texan and hoot loudly LeFevre's sig found on many a t-shirt in this, the lone-star state:

"F*ck you, I'm from Texas."

I'm not proud of Bush, but I am proud of America and of Texas. I let the first country or state in the world that is without sin cast the first stone...

I am not trying to say that texas is the worst state in the world, just that a miscarriage of justice of this extreme does not happen very often, and when it does, it is a real cause for concern.

46 people hauled off to court, 800 years of court time handed out. In England, the birmgingham six was a national issue, and cause for national soul searching.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country and your state.

However, this is a clear issue of great concern. And GWB is quite happy to have possibly innocent people killed because it makes him look tough on crime. He was the governor, and he signed all those execution orders personally.

[Skeptic]

I am not trying to say that texas is the worst state in the world,

No, just that it was headed by a serial murderer and that its main past time is the legal lynching of black people. EXCEPT for THAT, you are not implying anything bad at all about Texas.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Skeptic
No, just that it was headed by a serial murderer and that its main past time is the legal lynching of black people.

Blow it out your *ss. I would very much like to know what you base this on.

Texas does have an extremely crappy judicial system. Judges are elected and this is a terribly poor way to run things as it allows for the types of abuses mentioned in this thread.

As Gregor has poinited out, blaming a Governor for anything in Texas is a joke. For such a large state the Govornorship is remarkably weak and for all intents and purposes probably should be thought of as a figure-head.

One must always remember that Texas is very large and most of the negative images people have of it come from the small red-neck portion of West Texas (which includes Tulia and Amarillo, my home-town).

Central Texas where I am currently living is one of the most progressive areas in the country and as a result is consistently voted as one of the most desirable places to live and a large reason for that is our embracing of the various cultures.

Every holiday is a party from Cinco de Mayo (Mexican Independence) to Juneteenth (Commorating the day Texas blacks learned of their emancipation) to OctoberFest.

Lynchings my ass. I'll match Austin, Texas' racial record against New York City any day.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by Skeptic
So what you're saying is that you ignore postings from people who don't uncritically support whatever your government happens to be doing?

No. I ignore postings from people who CLAIM their real motive is "just fair criticism", "not to uncritically support whatever the government is doing", but IN EFFECT criticize EVERYTHING the government is doing, while criticizing NOTHING murderers and terrorists do, but instead "understanding" them.

So the problem is that you think they aren't being balanced in their criticisms? "You said a mean thing about the US government, now you have to say a mean thing about Al Quaeda to balance it up!"?

Speaking only for myself, I express critical views of US and Australian government behaviour far more than I express critical views of terrorists. Not because terrorists are okay with me, but because I can barely turn the TV on or walk down the street without seeing war propaganda that annoys me.

The reason no one here is attacking terrorism as such is that no one here is advocating terrorism as such.

How is that being a skeptic, Skeptic? Surely you should be equally skeptical of the claims and methods of both "sides".

OF COURSE I should I should NOT be "equally skeptical" of the claims of the US government and Al Quaeda, for the same reason I should not be "equally skeptical" of a raped woman's claim and a serial rapist's excuse, for instance, or of a death-row murderer's cock-and-bull story about how he was "railroaded" and the story told by the cops who arrested him and the relatives of his victim. Should I be "equally skeptical" of a known arsonist's claim that the fire was started by the fireman and of the fireman's claim that it was started by the arsonist? [/QUOTE]

You damn well should. In the sense that in each of those cases you should critically assess the evidence. Maybe the "raped" woman is lying. It has happened. Maybe the "murderer" was unjustly convicted. That too has happened. Maybe the fireman lit the fire. Firebugs are a real and serious problem in Australian volunteer fire brigades.

Who would you have believed when news of the Gulf of Tonkin incident broke? The honest US government or those evil sneaky commies in North Vietnam?

Labeling people "anti-american" and "pro-serial killer" and ignoring their arguments is a dubious way of getting to the truth or convincing others.

If their arguments are flawed you should be able to demonstrate it without demonising them. If their arguments seem solid but conflict with your assumptions, it's possible you need to revise your assumptions.

[BrianT]

Remember that the Texas Observer dug up this story MONTHS before anyone else would even touch it. The attorney general had to be dragged kicking and screaming before he would look into it (John Cornyn, now US senator).

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by BrianT
Remember that the Texas Observer dug up this story MONTHS before anyone else would even touch it. The attorney general had to be dragged kicking and screaming before he would look into it (John Cornyn, now US senator).

thanks brian. there are also examples of miscarriages of justice in australia. I can't recall any of this magnitude, though. They do also often involve politicians trying to avoid them like the plague.

[Gregor]

Blue Monk

I think Skeptic was pointing out "A Unique Person's" misleading past assertions, not that he holds those opinions of Texas.

And Amarillo, huh - so if I mention the Big Texan, buried cadillacs, and Palo Duro Canyon does that bring back memories? (I too spent years on the frontier).

[Alaric]

(drool) The Big Texan is awesome. My girlfriend lives in Amarillo(as will I in a few months) and she uses the place to coerce my meat eating coprse down there. Awesome steak.
As for Palo Duro...that places scares the S8IT out of this Canuck. My god its hotter outside my body then inside. Thats just so wrong.
Er wait. This has really nothing to do with the subject. Hmm.

What im wondering is...what do you think the chance is of these innocent people getting out of jail under the Texas system. In Canada its far too easy(good for the innocent...and um..good for the guilty). WHat sort of chance do they have? Also-will they be allowed massive settlements in court or does Texas not allow it?

[Brown]

An update from Yahoo and Reuters. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=9&u=/nm/20030402/od_nm/crime_tulia_dc)Tom Coleman was hailed as the Texas lawman of the year for busting a drug ring in the Panhandle town of Tulia, but on Tuesday a court moved to say that he cannot be taken at his word and his sting operation was a scam.

[swellman]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I let the first country or state in the world that is without sin cast the first stone...

It won't be Massachusetts throwing stones...

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/092/metro/After_19_years_DNA_set_to_free_rape_convict+.shtml

"Convicted 19 years ago in the rape of two women and attempted rape of a third, Army Sergeant Dennis Maher stood in full uniform at sentencing and called the verdicts a travesty. And he has been saying the same ever since, even after the convictions were upheld on appeal and he was incarcerated for life as a serial rapist.

Justice is finally coming Maher's way. Newly discovered DNA evidence has cleared the way for his exoneration tomorrow, prosecutors and his attorneys said. The former soldier, who was 23 when he was convicted in 1984 in trials in Lowell and Ayer, will be going home."

Not railroaded in just one case, but three!

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Back to Tulia.

[Smalso]

Originally posted by swellman


It won't be Massachusetts throwing stones...

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/092/metro/After_19_years_DNA_set_to_free_rape_convict+.shtml

"Convicted 19 years ago in the rape of two women and attempted rape of a third, Army Sergeant Dennis Maher stood in full uniform at sentencing and called the verdicts a travesty. And he has been saying the same ever since, even after the convictions were upheld on appeal and he was incarcerated for life as a serial rapist.

Justice is finally coming Maher's way. Newly discovered DNA evidence has cleared the way for his exoneration tomorrow, prosecutors and his attorneys said. The former soldier, who was 23 when he was convicted in 1984 in trials in Lowell and Ayer, will be going home."

Not railroaded in just one case, but three!

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Back to Tulia.

I don't believe any state can be singled out as having a monopoly on convicting innocent people. The goal of making as sure as possible that the guilty are convicted is laudible; but not without the proper safeguards to ensure that the innocent go free. "Justice for all" sounds good, but without putting it into practice every day and in every trial, it is meaningless.

[iain]

In reality there is a balance between having an acceptably small number of wrongful convictions and ensuring that someone who commits a crime stands a good chance of being punished.

I doubt a system where there were no miscarriages of justice would be desirable, simply because such a system would also have a very low conviction rate.

The UK has a steady stream of miscarriages of justice being overturned on appeal, and doubtless many more which are not.

Things were much worse before the Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1984. Before then it was pretty easy for the police to fit someone up, invent evidence and lie in court and win because a policeman is seen by judge and jury as being a more convincing witness than a defendant in most cases.

The current UK Government does seem intent on making it easier to convict people (and, almost by definition, increase the number of wrongful convictions) with such measures as allowing double jeopardy for some crimes and allowing juries to take past convictions into account when considering their verdict.

[Smalso]

In reality there is a balance between having an acceptably small number of wrongful convictions and ensuring that someone who commits a crime stands a good chance of being punished.

I beg respectfully to disagree. There is no "acceptably small number of wrongful convictions." One innocent person in prison is one too many.

[iain]

Originally posted by Smalso


I beg respectfully to disagree. There is no "acceptably small number of wrongful convictions." One innocent person in prison is one too many. But one guilty person not in prison is also one too many.

If there were a justice system which could achieve that objective then I would whole-heartedly agree with you. I don't believe there is such a system now and I don't see any sign of there being one in the future.

Most of the measures to protect innocent people from wrongful conviction also make it more difficult to convict a guilty person.

That is not to say that it is ever OK for an innocent person to be in prison. There should always be avenues for appeal and as many safeguards as possible to prevent it happening and it is always wrong to convict an innocent person. But looking at the system as a whole, it has to find a balance between two wrongs.

[Smalso]

Originally posted by iain
But one guilty person not in prison is also one too many.

If there were a justice system which could achieve that objective then I would whole-heartedly agree with you. I don't believe there is such a system now and I don't see any sign of there being one in the future.

Most of the measures to protect innocent people from wrongful conviction also make it more difficult to convict a guilty person.

That is not to say that it is ever OK for an innocent person to be in prison. There should always be avenues for appeal and as many safeguards as possible to prevent it happening and it is always wrong to convict an innocent person. But looking at the system as a whole, it has to find a balance between two wrongs.

I cannot but agree with you; however, it is more preferable to me that ten guilty go free rather than one innocent be sent to prison. The biggest cause of the imperfections in our system--and I am speaking of the United States system--is people and politics. So many on juries believe as you do that it is better to send a few innocent to prison to make sure that we get as many of the guilty as possible; and so many are sent to prison on evidence that could go either way. Real life is not like television. There is not always a Matlock or Perry Mason to make sure the innocent are acquitted. The state--prosecution--has vast resources in money and investigation personnel. All too many times, the defendant cannot furnish the funds necessary to build his case. Of course, appeals exist; but the convicted person has to languish in prison while the process takes place--usually years--and even then the appellate courts are only concerned with the form of the trial; not the guilt or innocence of the appellant. Now, on top of that, we have a congress calling for limits on appeals, especially in death penalty cases as well as an administration that seems bent on appointing federal judges who are not inclined to the appellant. With the advent of advanced DNA technology, there are many convicted people found to be innocent and released; some after having spent years in prison and having exhausted all appeals. I have yet to hear one of them say that their time in prison for a crime he/she did not commit was worth it as a sacrifice they were willing to pay so that as many guilty as possible could be convicted.

[a_unique_person]

One hustler by himself did not do this. He add accomplices, whether they realised it or not.

Also clearly at issue here are:-

1. Racism
2. The Justice System.
3. The judge
4. The townspeople, who formed the jury.
5. 'Tough on Crime'
6. The War on Drugs

Note the many guilty pleas, as a guilty plea gets you less years than contesting the charge. It makes you wonder how many people realise that they are going to be found guilty whether they were or not, and plead guilty for purely pragmatic reasons.

There are miscarriages of justice in all countries and states, but this many at once has to be extraordinary.

This has to be evidence of a serious systemic error.

[Smalso]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
One hustler by himself did not do this. He add accomplices, whether they realised it or not.

Also clearly at issue here are:-

1. Racism
2. The Justice System.
3. The judge
4. The townspeople, who formed the jury.
5. 'Tough on Crime'
6. The War on Drugs

Note the many guilty pleas, as a guilty plea gets you less years than contesting the charge. It makes you wonder how many people realise that they are going to be found guilty whether they were or not, and plead guilty for purely pragmatic reasons.

There are miscarriages of justice in all countries and states, but this many at once has to be extraordinary.

This has to be evidence of a serious systemic error.

True. When the system is allowed to work, it generally does a pretty good job; much better than when people start meddling with it.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/02/1046540066770.html

(Not andalyn style)







Take Billy Sue Gayler. ....

[/quote]

Lucky none of them were found guilty of murder. You have to wonder, even if there was a rogue cop, how could the jury system, which is supposed to be the communities means of keeping an eye on justice system, have failed so badly. [/QUOTE]

here's an Update on a drug bust:


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/16/tulia.hearing/index.html


Texas regularly comes up in the news regarding cases that are conroversial.

Texas has but mentally hanicapped people on death row.

http://edition.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/09/texas.double.execution.03/index.html

Gov. George W. Bush claimed Wednesday that Texas doesn't execute mentally retarded killers, although at least five such convicts have been put to death in recent years.

http://edition.cnn.com/2000/LOCAL/southwest/08/10/hci.bush.executions/index.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/07/scotus.texas.execution/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/26/penry.video/index.html

Texas justice results in a lot of executions

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9706/17/texas.executions/index.html


Is the justice system fair in Texas? It has been criticized for the amount of people jailed and executed that are hispanic, black, and mentally retarted. Is Texas in denial about its racist tendancies? Does Texas meet out justice fairly more often than not? Perceptions are that the punishments are severe compared to the crimes, and that there is an institutionalised racism.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Gregor
And Amarillo, huh - so if I mention the Big Texan, buried cadillacs, and Palo Duro Canyon does that bring back memories? (I too spent years on the frontier).

How funny. When I was at Ft. Sill in Artillery School, I took a classmate of mine from Virginia to Amarillo...

We stayed at the Big Texan hotel, rode horses through Palo Duro and checked out the Cadillacs before heading back to OK.

Of course that was more "Texan" than when we hit metroplex (Six Flags and the 6th Floor Museum) but still...

As to Tulia... I went to A&M with a guy from there. I'm honestly not surprised with a rogue cop probably pinning drug charges on minorities. But since this state has changed a lot since the 1950s.. where a_u_p appears to think it's continually bound... it also doesn't surprise me that these sort of shennanigans were ucovered and corrected.

There are plenty of sad vestiges of the old south in Texas - institutional racism is not one of them.

[JAR]

Please don't judge all white people by white people in Texas. We're quite different where I live in southern California. Where I live there are a lot of non-white people in the police and sheriff force. The two times my parents reported something to the local sheriff department, the officer who came to record the report was a non-white person. The first time an officer came, he was African-American and the second time, he was Mexican-American.

[jj]

Originally posted by subgenius

You are confused.
He does run the system. Appointments of judges, etc. The blurring of the seperation of powers is a major problem in our country.

Well, yeah, what do you call it when the Governor of Texas can get anti-terrorist squads to go out and hunt for missing lawmakers so he can coerce them into making a quorum?

I'd say somebody is confused. Subg seems pretty level here, though.

[Ladewig]

I agree with the statement that the govenor of Texas does not control the justice system, but I do consider the govenor to be a major factor in the execution of criminals. Even though state law says that the govenor cannot commute a death sentence without the approval of Board of Paroles and Pardons, the govenor does have the authority to order the BP&P to hold hearings or to conduct a serious investigation of a case where he may have doubts about guilt or due process -- or for any other reason. GWB never did that. Also, the govenor appoints all the members of the BP&P, so his or her wishes are not ignored by the board.

One hundred and forty-five people were executed by the Texas criminal justice system under GWB, a man who has repeatedly stated his belief in the deterrence of capital punishment. When asked about Illinois's releasing almost half of their death row inmates because of exonerating evidence, GWB replied that, "Everyone who has been executed in Texas is guilty." I personally, have a hard time with that kind of view.

While Texas does lead the country in executions, the figure is somewhat misleading because the vast majority of death row inmates come from Harris County (Houston). If Harris County were a state it would rank third behind Texas and Virginia in total executions since 1977, when they resumed after a decade of litigation. Soon the county will move into second, so large is its death row population. In fact, its list of offenders on death row is larger than the death row populations of 31 of the 38 states that have the death penalty.

I do not mean to criticize the Texas justiced sytem in its entirety, the swift and fair trial of James Byrd Jr.'s murderers is an example of an extremely well-handled case. Still, I would like to see the Texas system improved.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


As to Tulia... I went to A&M with a guy from there. I'm honestly not surprised with a rogue cop probably pinning drug charges on minorities. But since this state has changed a lot since the 1950s.. where a_u_p appears to think it's continually bound... it also doesn't surprise me that these sort of shennanigans were ucovered and corrected.

There are plenty of sad vestiges of the old south in Texas - institutional racism is not one of them.

I didn't think it was just a failure of the police, as the story notes, there appears to be a roving group of freelance cops that appear to have to justify their job. A dangerous conflict of interest.

The real problem was how the whole justice system failed. The jury was a locally convened one, and was quite happy to convict possibly innocent people on evidence that was flawed, with a judge who is supposed to ensure justice is being done not doing his job either.

The systemic failure was the real problem.

[WildCat]

35 defendants were pardoned today by Texas Gov. Rick Perry.

"Questions surrounding testimony from the key witness in these cases, coupled with recommendations from the Board of Pardons and Paroles, weighed heavily on my final decision," Perry said in a written statement.

The sleazeball rent-a-cop that put them in jail still insists he did the right thing, however.
Coleman's attorney has told CNN his client stands behind the work he did on the cases and believes releasing the inmates simply means more drug dealers will return to Tulia's streets.
:rolleyes:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Gregor
Texas governors probably have the smallest role in selecting and governing the judiciary of any state governor.

All levels of judges are elected. Sitting district judges by their county. First level appellate judges by districts (14 groups of counties). The Court of Criminal Appeals by state-wide election.

The review of actions by sitting district judges is to the state government. The governor has no role.

Rarely, the governor will appoint a judge to fill a vacancy, but in a state with 25 million people and 254 counties, don't expect the governor to be involved in that selection process.

Thus, don't try and pin this on W.

But surely a governor could have a role in reforming the justice system in his own state? This is a question, I don't know exactly how it works in the US.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I will sound off as a Texan and hoot loudly LeFevre's sig found on many a t-shirt in this, the lone-star state:

"F*ck you, I'm from Texas."

I'm not proud of Bush, but I am proud of America and of Texas. I let the first country or state in the world that is without sin cast the first stone...

Yeeeee-haw! Hit her with the hammer, Granpaw!

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Skeptic

OF COURSE I should I should NOT be "equally skeptical" of the claims of the US government and Al Quaeda, for the same reason I should not be "equally skeptical" of a raped woman's claim and a serial rapist's excuse, for instance, or of a death-row murderer's cock-and-bull story about how he was "railroaded" and the story told by the cops who arrested him and the relatives of his victim. Should I be "equally skeptical" of a known arsonist's claim that the fire was started by the fireman and of the fireman's claim that it was started by the arsonist?


It's people who have that kind of thinking that ensure more innocent people go to jail, and that more people die unnecessarily in the US. Each and every case should be judged first and foremost on the available evidence, no matter what the background of the people involved.

[American]

You're upset that a lone-wolf hero rode into town, kick ass, and cleaned up Tombstone?


Go to hell! :cool:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by American
You're upset that a lone-wolf hero rode into town, kick ass, and cleaned up Tombstone?


Go to hell! :cool:

OK, just who's sock pupper are you?

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

getting those obscene toys and people off the streets in Texas


some odd laws are enforced in Texas

obscene (http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/local/7270210.htm)

laws in Texas and enforcement of them, appear archaic

[Scott]

aup babbles on and on...He was the governor, and he signed all those execution orders personally.aup, this statement shows your complete ignorance or disregard of fact (you decide and then tell us which one it is), your unwillingness to learn them, and to tell the truth.

If you'd have just done a smidgen more research instead of going off half-cocked because you found something that might make America, Bush and/or Texas look bad, you you'd know that the gov. does not sign the execution orders. A few years ago District Judge Charles Hearn, an elected judge, not the governor, signed an execution order with a smiley face. The Texas governor does not sign execution orders.

5 minutes on Google and you could have had some facts. But I digress, they'd just get in your way.

Now, I'm sure that you'll try to spin your answer into something witty such as by refusing to sign a 30-day stay of execution the governor is symbolically signing the execution order, but instead of doing that, you should try posting on a topic you know something about.

[c0rbin]

Yeeeee-haw! Hit her with the hammer, Granpaw!

Texas Chainsaw Massacre was a great movie loosely based on Ed Gein, a fellow from Wisconsin.

The film-makers are from Texas.