Beyond the Doubt

[Sabretooth]

This is something that has been boggling me ever since I started lurking the JREF boards a couple months back. What does a CTer hope to accomplish? I mean, what, ultimately, is the end result?

So, let us imagine that the CTer’s are right. As if in some bizarre world, they come across some undisputable piece(s) of evidence that proves one or all of the following:

-WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 were all taken down due to a CD…
-Planes were carrying missiles and/or bombs…
-The planes were holograms for cruise missiles…
-UA93 was shot down…
-There were no planes at all…
-the Pentagon was hit with a car bomb/rockets/missiles/aliens or a combination of all of these…
-etc…etc…

Great, right? They finally prove, once and for all, that our gov’t is killing its own people!

Then…what? Everyone goes back to their day jobs? The gov’t just decides to meltdown the entire country/continent/planet because they’ve been found out? What would proving an inside job really accomplish? What is the end result?

I mean, if the gov’t or world powers were really THAT cavalier as to just destroy innocent human lives, planes, and buildings just for the sake of doing so…?

Does the average CTer look beyond what they imply? Do they see some goal at the end?

[DGM]

This is something that has been boggling me ever since I started lurking the JREF boards a couple months back. What does a CTer hope to accomplish? I mean, what, ultimately, is the end result?



I believe for the average (truther) poster here this is their place to vent. They don't really have the strength of their convictions to actually do anything, this just makes them feel better. To them we ARE the government ("the man", NWO or whatever). We're the opponent. Going outside and actually doing something only leads to embarrassment (as been shown countless times).

We are it! Convince us and they ..............(I have no clue what would be next).

[MikeW]

From what people here have said, I think they just want to come back and sneer "we told you so": it's about as childish as that.

[MG1962]

Some of the more balanced CT folk would like see criminal charges against those who engineered the event, and some of the subsquent legislation enacted on it's behalf rolled back

I recall in the day how many saw the election of a Democratic president would formally destroy the movement. That prediction has turned out to be largely true. Although before Obama I would say they had been on life support for a good 12 - 18 months anyway

[Miragememories]

"This is something that has been boggling me ever since I started lurking the JREF boards a couple months back. What does a CTer hope to accomplish? I mean, what, ultimately, is the end result?...

...Then…what? Everyone goes back to their day jobs?

...What would proving an inside job really accomplish? What is the end result?

...Does the average CTer look beyond what they imply? Do they see some goal at the end?"

Your questions say a lot about your attitude towards mass murder and its aftermath.

I've asked myself similar questions, only from the opposite side.

What do OCTers hope to gain by lying, bullying, insulting and obstructing in any way they can, an honest, full investigation into one of the most monumental atrocities to ever be inflicted on mankind?

What do they fear so much?

Look at the consequences of an inside job exposé and I think you'll find your answer.

F E A R.

Who are the real cowards?

Those who blindly support the notion that the Official Conspiracy Theory truly explains what happened on 9/11.

MM

[Redtail]

Your questions say a lot about your attitude towards mass murder and its aftermath.

I've asked myself similar questions, only from the opposite side.

What do OCTers hope to gain by lying, bullying, insulting and obstructing in any way they can, an honest, full investigation into one of the most monumental atrocities to ever be inflicted on mankind?

What do they fear so much?

Look at the consequences of an inside job exposé and I think you'll find your answer.

F E A R.

Who are the real cowards?

Those who blindly support the notion that the Official Conspiracy Theory truly explains what happened on 9/11.

MM
Fear of what?

[Miragememories]

Fear of what?

Now that, is too funny!

MM

[DGM]

.

What do OCTers hope to gain by lying,

Lying about what?

[dafydd]

I believe for the average (truther) poster here this is their place to vent. They don't really have the strength of their convictions to actually do anything, this just makes them feel better. To them we ARE the government ("the man", NWO or whatever). We're the opponent. Going outside and actually doing something only leads to embarrassment (as been shown countless times).

We are it! Convince us and they ..............(I have no clue what would be next).

CT's are the kind of people who used to hang around on the streets mumbling and shouting at passerbys.Now they have the internet.

[Miragememories]

CT's are the kind of people who used to hang around on the streets mumbling and shouting at passerbys.Now they have the internet.
There is your insulting.

MM

[Captain_Swoop]

Your questions say a lot about your attitude towards mass murder and its aftermath.

I've asked myself similar questions, only from the opposite side.

What do OCTers hope to gain by lying, bullying, insulting and obstructing in any way they can, an honest, full investigation into one of the most monumental atrocities to ever be inflicted on mankind?

What do they fear so much?

Look at the consequences of an inside job exposé and I think you'll find your answer.

F E A R.

Who are the real cowards?

Those who blindly support the notion that the Official Conspiracy Theory truly explains what happened on 9/11.

MM

There was a full investigation, you just don't like the result.

[uke2se]

CT's are the kind of people who used to hang around on the streets mumbling and shouting at passerbys.Now they have the internet.

Pretty much this.

[Sam.I.Am]

Some of the more balanced CT folk would like see criminal charges against those who engineered the event, and some of the subsquent legislation enacted on it's behalf rolled back

I recall in the day how many saw the election of a Democratic president would formally destroy the movement. That prediction has turned out to be largely true. Although before Obama I would say they had been on life support for a good 12 - 18 months anyway

That 12 to 18 months tracks with the 2006 election of a Democratically controlled Congress. I've always maintained that a great number of the "Truth Movement" was artificially inflated by people who just wanted something to pin on Bush and the Republicans to get them out of office and not because they actually believed it.

If you truly believed that the "Government did it" then the simple fact that the people who "Did it" were now out of office shouldn't matter at all. Yet here we are, almost 2-4 years later (depending on whether you think that it was the Congress or the Presidency that was the tipping point for these people) and their numbers have dwindled down to almost nothing. If anything you'd think that now that "Their guys" are in power that the "Truth" surely must come out. Yet they don't push for it at all. Why is that?

In my opinion it's because they don't want to embarrass "Their Guys" now in office by showing how stupid they were for espousing such malformed opinions for political gains. What's left of the so called "Truth Movement" here in the US are the true nutjobs and the snake oil salesmen who feed off of them. We still hear the echos of the truthers who were only in it for political gains whenever we hear about 4 or more year old opinion polls being dragged out as "Proof" of their numbers without ever explaining why those numbers aren't sustained over time.

[Horatius]

Then…what? Everyone goes back to their day jobs? The gov’t just decides to meltdown the entire country/continent/planet because they’ve been found out? What would proving an inside job really accomplish? What is the end result?




I don't think they've honestly thought it through that far. Of all the ones I've seen answer the question, "What are you, personally, trying to do?", the answer is usually something along the lines of, "Trying to wake people up to the Truth!"

They seem to imagine that, if they can get belief in the CT up to some unspecified percentage of the population, people will spontaneously arise and Throw The Bums Out, without the CT proponents having to do all that messy revolutionary work themselves. The notion of such a popular uprising being both unlikely, and unlikely to work, absent a well-planned and executed strategy, seems to have passed them by.

Thus, hanging about on message boards, haranguing the sheeple, becomes, via some alchemical Truth process, the most effective way to get rid of the NWO. At least in their minds.

[dafydd]

Pretty much this.

deleted

[beachnut]

...
Those who blindly support the notion that the Official Conspiracy Theory truly explains what happened on 9/11.

MM
You make up lies and believe them blindly.

I used evidence to figure out 19 terrorists did 911. You use what? Delusions?

If I thought 911 was an inside job, I would have found the evidence in the first 30 days and taken action to stop those who did 911.

You can't take action because you have no evidence to back you failed claims on 911. When you find a claim made by 911 truth it always ends in a no evidence pit of ignorance.

[alienentity]

Now that, is too funny!

MM

No really. Fear of what? The truth? LOL

I have the same reaction to homeopathy and dowsing as I do to alien invasions, moon landing hoaxes and 9/11 Truth. I find it alarming and sometimes contemptible that various myths and false ideas like these are foisted upon the average citizen.

I've had several threats to my safety for daring to challenge these myths, esp 9/11 myths - i've been called a treasonous traitor and threatened that my kind will be 'dealt with' after the revolution.

Why just look at my sig quotes to see some of the horrendous stuff that is thrown our way. If there's anything I fear it's some deluded wackjob truther attacking me for expressing my opinion. Much the same as the guys who write heretical things about Islam or Christianity - gotta watch your back.

'Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!' According to Heiwa a lot of us are 'complicit' to murder. Yikes!!

[dafydd]

It is rather predictable,isn't it? How I wish a CTer would come up with a detailed alternative theory,then we would have something to discuss,but it always turns out to be the modern equivalent of going to see the inmates of Bedlam.Come on truthers,surprise us!

[alienentity]

Your questions say a lot about your attitude towards mass murder and its aftermath.

I've asked myself similar questions, only from the opposite side.


What do they fear so much?

Who are the real cowards?

MM

If the American people really thought that the Bush admin engineered 9/11, and there was any real evidence to back it up, they would have been hunted down and brought to justice by the majority of patriotic, honest law enforcement people who look out for all of you.

And I would have been cheering them on in doing so. To say I disliked Bush is an understatement of great proportions. I would have LOVED to have seen Bush fall for that kind of crime. But alas he isn't guilty of that crime, so there it is.

He and his cronies did lie about the WMD's in Iraq however, and that was unforgivable. Yet he was re-elected. Not my fault - for that I blame the idiots who voted for him again. I don't even blame Bush for that.

[dafydd]

There is your insulting.

MM

Provide some concrete evidence of a CT and I will humbly apologize.

[Miragememories]

There was a full investigation, you just don't like the result.
There is the bs.

MM

[dafydd]

There is the bs.

MM

You have proof that it is bs?

[Miragememories]

You make up lies and believe them blindly.

I used evidence to figure out 19 terrorists did 911. You use what? Delusions?

If I thought 911 was an inside job, I would have found the evidence in the first 30 days and taken action to stop those who did 911.

You can't take action because you have no evidence to back you failed claims on 911. When you find a claim made by 911 truth it always ends in a no evidence pit of ignorance.
All lies by there very nature are "made up".

The biggest liars make the most grandiose and pompous claims.

Your post highlights my point nicely.

Too funny.

MM

[Miragememories]

You have proof that it is bs?
Need I quote the investigators themselves?

Are you that weak in your research?

MM

[Miragememories]

No really. Fear of what? The truth? LOL

I have the same reaction to homeopathy and dowsing as I do to alien invasions, moon landing hoaxes and 9/11 Truth. I find it alarming and sometimes contemptible that various myths and false ideas like these are foisted upon the average citizen.

I've had several threats to my safety for daring to challenge these myths, esp 9/11 myths - i've been called a treasonous traitor and threatened that my kind will be 'dealt with' after the revolution.

Why just look at my sig quotes to see some of the horrendous stuff that is thrown our way. If there's anything I fear it's some deluded wackjob truther attacking me for expressing my opinion. Much the same as the guys who write heretical things about Islam or Christianity - gotta watch your back.

'Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!' According to Heiwa a lot of us are 'complicit' to murder. Yikes!!

The expression; "jack of all trades, master of none", comes to mind when I read your post.

MM

[dafydd]

Need I quote the investigators themselves?

Are you that weak in your research?

MM

All the evidence that I have seen points to the fact that terrorists hijacked planes,flew them into building which collapsed due to fire and structural damage.If you can show me where I am going wrong,please feel free to do so.Quote the investigators.

[dafydd]

The expression; "jack of all trades, master of none", comes to mind when I read your post.

MM

Do you have an engineering degree?Are you an architect? What is your trade?

[Miragememories]

If the American people really thought that the Bush admin engineered 9/11, and there was any real evidence to back it up, they would have been hunted down and brought to justice by the majority of patriotic, honest law enforcement people who look out for all of you.

And I would have been cheering them on in doing so. To say I disliked Bush is an understatement of great proportions. I would have LOVED to have seen Bush fall for that kind of crime. But alas he isn't guilty of that crime, so there it is.

He and his cronies did lie about the WMD's in Iraq however, and that was unforgivable. Yet he was re-elected. Not my fault - for that I blame the idiots who voted for him again. I don't even blame Bush for that.
The American prisons are full of people sent there by so-called honest law enforcement people.

Such naivety is pathetic.

MM

[switchpoint]

Need I quote the investigators themselves?

Are you that weak in your research?

MM

Yes, please show me a quote from one the investigators wherein they state, without condition and plainly that they believe that the WTC buildings were brought down with CD, that a missile hit the Pentagon and not Flight 77 and that Flight 93 either never reached Shanksville, Pa or was shot down by US forces.

Not some BS were the investigator offers some disdain about the level of cooperation they got when they were trying to figure out how to improve the exisitng security and intelligence infrastructure. Or trying to figure out who may have slipped on 9/11 from a security standpoint.

[DGM]

The American prisons are full of people sent there by so-called honest law enforcement people.

Such naivety is pathetic.

MM
What? You got nothing left.

This is pathetic for even you.

[dafydd]

Yes, please show me a quote from one the investigators wherein they state, without condition and plainly that they believe that the WTC buildings were brought down with CD, that a missile hit the Pentagon and not Flight 77 and that Flight 93 either never reached Shanksville, Pa or was shot down by US forces.

Not some BS were the investigator offers some disdain about the level of cooperation they got when they were trying to figure out how to improve the exisitng security and intelligence infrastructure. Or trying to figure out who may have slipped on 9/11 from a security standpoint.

Bring on the quotes,Miragememories.

[beachnut]

All lies by there very nature are "made up".

The biggest liars make the most grandiose and pompous claims.

Your post highlights my point nicely.

Too funny.

MM Too funny.
Meaning; you will not list your evidence for your delusions on 911.

[Miragememories]

What? You got nothing left.

This is pathetic for even you.

And then back to more insults.

So predictable.

MM

[Redtail]

Now that, is too funny!

MM

Seriously, fear of what?

[Miragememories]

Too funny.
Meaning; you will not list your evidence for your delusions on 911.

Since I have no delusions, there is no evidence of them to present.

It is people who embrace the Official Conspiracy Theory, like a
religion, who are delusional.

They have so much fear of the truth about 9/11 that they will do anything they can to paint black as white.

Constantly labeling 9/11 truth seekers as liars and delusional only reveals
the weakness in your position.

If you truly had such grand proofs we would have been blown out of the water long ago.

But you don't.

So all you do is seed doubt, apply bad data assumptions to real science, and smear those brave enough to question the status quo.

2008 was just a taste of the reward you can expect for seeing only what you wish to see.

MM

[Dog Town]

What is your trade?

Grunt, in da Twoofer army?

[Redtail]

They have so much fear of the truth about 9/11 that they will do anything they can to paint black as white.
What do we have to fear?

So all you do is seed doubt, apply bad data assumptions to real science, and smear those brave enough to question the status quo.
Brave?2008 was just a taste of the reward you can expect for seeing only what you wish to see.
... Something significant happened with the tm in 08? What?

[Sam.I.Am]

Truthers were blown out of the water a long time ago. Their problem is being unwilling to admit that they are wrong on so many fronts in the face of overwhelming evidence. Pride goes before the fall.

[Grizzly Bear]

Fear of what?

Something about Bush canceling the general elections and bearing upon all of us martial law or attacking the US with nukes (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12488) in 2008 which never happened.... Or something. Maybe he moved it up a couple years to coincide with the 2012 end of world scenario for added drama.

I mean god forbid... I'm apparently a treasonous government apologist by the very act of picking up a college architecture book

[A W Smith]

Since I have no delusions, there is no evidence of them to present.

It is people who embrace the Official Conspiracy Theory, like a
religion, who are delusional.

They have so much fear of the truth about 9/11 that they will do anything they can to paint black as white.

Constantly labeling 9/11 truth seekers as liars and delusional only reveals
the weakness in your position.

If you truly had such grand proofs we would have been blown out of the water long ago.

But you don't.

So all you do is seed doubt, apply bad data assumptions to real science, and smear those brave enough to question the status quo.

2008 was just a taste of the reward you can expect for seeing only what you wish to see.

MM
Project your failure, doubt, and insecurities onto others much Merrie Melodies?

[beachnut]

Too funny.
Meaning; you will not list your evidence for your delusions on 911.

Since I have no delusions, there is no evidence of them to present.

...
MM No list? lol
As I said, you have no evidence; so you have delusions.

List your evidence. No one needs to prove you are wrong, you have to prove you have something. 8 years of failure, and you were proved wrong on 911.

If you had no delusions, you would have evidence.

[Sabretooth]

Wow. I posed this question legitimately, and instead of a simple honest answer, I get yet another pile of garbage from a CTer that doesn't even know how to carry a conversation, let alone have an actual debate.

MM, you basically come out and call me a coward and then run back to your corner. Then the first thing you did was whine that someone insulted you. Grow up and provide a worthwhile debate, or stay out of it. All you've done from my point of view is prove my point that the CT crowd is a bunch loonies that need their medication levels increased.

[Sabretooth]

The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser, not the othe way around. Don't pose some retarded question or theory and then ask us to disprove it. That's your job, MM.

[ElMondoHummus]

Does the average CTer look beyond what they imply? Do they see some goal at the end?

I don't think they've honestly thought it through that far. Of all the ones I've seen answer the question, "What are you, personally, trying to do?", the answer is usually something along the lines of, "Trying to wake people up to the Truth!"

They seem to imagine that, if they can get belief in the CT up to some unspecified percentage of the population, people will spontaneously arise and Throw The Bums Out, without the CT proponents having to do all that messy revolutionary work themselves. The notion of such a popular uprising being both unlikely, and unlikely to work, absent a well-planned and executed strategy, seems to have passed them by.

I agree, yet to a point disagree with Horatius here. I think our fine NWO Kitty illustrator :D nailed it right on the head when he said they've not thought through things very far. They haven't; they're too busy obsessing with the minituae of their narratives to go any further. But I no longer agree that they have some notion of waking the populace up to this so-called "Truth" of theirs. Possibly a truther here and there thought that, but after nearly four years of reading and dealing with these yahoos, I no longer feel it's anywhere near being the majority's goal. For those, the goal is nothing more than simply ensconcing themselves in a position of intellectual superiority via discernment of something they believe rest of the public refuses to grasp.

That's really it.

Their behavior betrays their intents. Sure, you did have the truthers who tried to inform the public - the Loose Change trio, Steven Jones, DRG, etc. But the rank-and-file have done little else with their supposed discoveries and analyses than go to forums like this one to show off, then return to their sandboxes for continual mutual reinforcement. They've been too utterly incompetent at any other "public awareness" attempts (NYCAN, Ground Zero demonstrations, etc.) to make me believe that they took such functions seriously to begin with. And on top of that, when they proselytize, they use the same old refuted junk they always use, even when they know such talking points have long been disproven; it's an artificial way to continually re-experience the "a-ha!" moment of their own entry into conspiracy fantasy, but it still keeps alive that feeling of stumbling into a secret via rejecting what the uninformed, sheeplike public accepts as true.

Bottom line: In their heads, they may play the fantasy of waking the public up to this grand conspiracy over and over, and may have even fooled themselves into believing it, but their obvious goal is nothing more than to ego preen. If it were any more than that, they wouldn't waste so much time trying to one-up people who take the time to refute their narratives.

[Oystein]

...
What do they fear so much?
...

Apart from the obvious fallacy (strawman...), your logic is upside down.

You seem to believe that somehow we "know" that that "OTC" is wrong and that somehow the government is responsible and evil. You are simply and flat out wrong on that.
And that is why we can't possibly be motivated by fear.
You on the oher hand, who purports to think that the evil government did it (I doubt that you do in fact believe this, but that's only an aside), should have some idea of what fears one could have. It really depends on the specific type of conspiracy you lie up.

So the really funny thing is that you call us fearful, when you should be the one who is.



Please tell us about your fears - obviously your fears have kept you from doing anything meaningful about 9/11. Have you called the police? Gone to court? Tried your luck as an independent, investigative journalist, and gone to any newspaper in your quest to win the Pulitzer?
Do let us know!

[Captain_Swoop]

This is exactly like the Apollo Hoax. A few publish books, videos and put up websites. Everyone else parrots along. They don't know what their intent is or what result they hope to achieve. I have noticed a lot of Apollo Hoax followers are also 9/11 Truthers, UFO believers etc.

[Oystein]

Need I quote the investigators themselves?

Are you that weak in your research?

MM

No need to. We know already the quotes you so gleefully wish to indulge us in.
However, we also know already the full stand of the selfsame investigators on the whom what, why amd how of 9/11.
None of them think, the US government did it.

Right?

[Sabretooth]

I expected so much more from this question.

I guess it's safe to conclude the CTer's have no idea what they hope to accomplish.

[carlitos]

I guess it's safe to conclude the CTer's have no idea what they hope to accomplish.
Apologies to those of you who have seen me post this before, but it's appropriate in this topic. These few paragraphs capture the gist of it, but the whole thing is worth reading.

link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/feb/20/comment.september11)


Why do I bother with these morons? Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress, that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy, that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the "9/11 truth movement" is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward's fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don't have the stomach to engage in real political fights.

Let me give you an example. The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago generated 777 posts on the Guardian Comment is Free website, which is almost a record. Most of them were furious. The response from a producer of the film, published last week, attracted 467. On the same day the Guardian published my article about a genuine, demonstrable conspiracy: a spy network feeding confidential information from an arms control campaign to Britain's biggest weapons manufacturer, BAE Systems. It drew 60 responses. The members of the 9/11 cult weren't interested. If they had been, they might have had to do something. The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its horde of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the "truth" movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don't exist, they can't fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow


As for MM's cryptic comment about 2008, maybe he/she forgot that Bush didn't cancel the election or blow off a nuke. You know what they say, tell a lie enough and you start to believe it's true.

[dafydd]

Need I quote the investigators themselves?

Are you that weak in your research?

MM

I know what happened.Please give me a detailed breakdown of what you think occurred on 9/11? You can't,can you?