Wars in Refugee Camps

[zenith-nadir]

As I said before, I am not anti-palestinian...I am anti-Palestinian Authority.

But for days I have been told at JREF how 'settlements' make palestinians blow up jews, how 'IDF' operations make palestinians blow up jews, how Israel's wall makes palestinians blow up jews.

Well lets remove Israel, the settlements and the wall from the equation to discuss terrorism and militants.

Sound fair?





Militant 'heir' killed in Lebanon - BBC - Wednesday, 11 February, 2004 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3478637.stm)

A Palestinian teenager whose father set up a militant group allegedly linked to al-Qaeda has been shot dead in Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp in south Lebanon. The 18-year-old reportedly tried - but failed - to lead a breakaway faction of Asbat al-Ansar after the killings of his father and brother.

Turf wars commonly erupt amongst militants in Lebanon's refugee camps.



Lebanon's no-go Palestinian areas - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2125647.stm)

The Lebanese army may have positions around the Palestinian camp of Ain al-Helweh in south Lebanon as well as checkpoints at all the entrances of the camp.

There are always fears of a repeat of the violent clashes that opposed the Lebanese army to Palestinian factions at the onset of the Lebanese civil war in 1975.

Several fugitives wanted by the Lebanese police are thought to be hiding there.


Violence erupts in Lebanese camp - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2236250.stm)

At least two Palestinians and a Lebanese soldier have been killed during a gunfight in al-Jalil refugee camp in Lebanon. Many more were wounded in the fighting, and Lebanese tanks are still surrounding the camp, near the eastern town of Baalbek.


Palestinian refugee camp hit by clashes - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2190055.stm)

Two people have been killed and at least six others injured in factional fighting at Lebanon's largest Palestinian refugee camp.


Handover ends Lebanon stand-off - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2131035.stm)

A Palestinian militant group based in Lebanon has handed over to the Lebanese army a man suspected of killing three soldiers, ending a tense stand-off at the country's largest Palestinian refugee camp.


________________________________________________



Ok. There you have just a few examples.

I specifically chose the BBC so that it was impossible to say that I chose a pro-Israel source.


Here are my questions.

1) If the Lebanese have the same problems with terrorism, mayhem and death coming from brother Arab-Palestinians in Lebanon, how do you explain it?

2) If all the usual suspects at JREF that defend the palestinian's endlessly, why are they not defending Palestinians that are behind Lebanese tanks and Lebanese checkpoints in Lebanon?

Aren't tanks tanks? Aren't checkpoints checkpoints? Aren't refugee camps refugee camps?

Or does that only really matter if they are 'jewish' tanks and checkpoints?




Before you answer, think about it. This is a serious point I am trying to illustrate, and I am not condeming every single Palestinian on earth.

Please, only serious and rational replies are acceptable.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Well lets remove Israel, the settlements and the wall from the equation to discuss terrorism and militants.

Sound fair?

....

Here are my questions.

1) If the Lebanese have the same problems with terrorism, mayhem and death coming from brother Arab-Palestinians in Lebanon, how do you explain it?

2) If all the usual suspects at JREF that defend the palestinian's endlessly, why are they not defending Palestinians that are behind Lebanese tanks and Lebanese checkpoints in Lebanon?



Of course you could argue that if you did that, you would not have refugee camps because people would not have been displaced, which would kind of invalidate the point of your post.

Specific answers to your questions:

1) Starts with a conditional statement "If..." that is not true unless you can point to regular suicide bombings in Lebanon. Question is therefore irrelevant.

2) Doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should try posting serious and rational questions if you want that sort of reply?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Of course you could argue that if you did that, you would not have refugee camps because people would not have been displaced, which would kind of invalidate the point of your post.

Specific answers to your questions:

1) Starts with a conditional statement "If..." that is not true unless you can point to regular suicide bombings in Lebanon. Question is therefore irrelevant.

2) Doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should try posting serious and rational questions if you want that sort of reply?



Yes your post doesn't make sense.

You say "you would not have refugee camps because people would not have been displaced".

So then the battles between militant groups and the Lebanese army in Lebanon today, 2004, are because of past events in 1948 & 1967?

Is that your point Jaggy?


And just an example for you Jag.


Blasts hit Lebanese Palestinian camp - Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9BA37E2D-4808-436D-967B-0F319277DF92.htm)

Three bomb blasts have rocked Lebanon's largest refugee camp overnight, Palestinian security sources have said.

A bomb targeted the camp's Fatah office in January, while a second hit a residential area.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
You say "you would not have refugee camps because people would not have been displaced".

So then the battles between militant groups and the Lebanese army in Lebanon today, 2004, are because of past actions in 1948 & 1967?

Is that your point Jaggy?

Your links all refer to refugee camps - why do you think these people ended up as refugees?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
And just an example for you Jag.


Blasts hit Lebanese Palestinian camp - Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9BA37E2D-4808-436D-967B-0F319277DF92.htm)



Example of what? Is this a report of a suicide bomb aimed against the Lebanese population? Does it show large numbers of people killed as they go to work?

If not, then why is it relevant? After all your question started:

"If the Lebanese have the same problems with terrorism, mayhem and death coming from brother Arab-Palestinians in Lebanon"

which you have provided no evidence for.

[zenith-nadir]

Here's another Jaggy.

Lebanon jails 26 over bombings of U.S. outlets - CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/20/lebanon.security.reut/)

BEIRUT, Lebanon (Reuters) -- Lebanon sentenced 26 men to between three months and 20 years in prison on Saturday over a string of bomb attacks on U.S. restaurants and an alleged plot to assassinate the U.S. ambassador, judicial sources said.

The Lebanese and Palestinian men had been arrested after a rash of small attacks.

Lebanese authorities cracked the cell after a booby-trapped car was found outside McDonald's in Beirut in April. It failed to explode.


So remind me again your point?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
"If the Lebanese have the same problems with terrorism, mayhem and death coming from brother Arab-Palestinians in Lebanon"

which you have provided no evidence for.


I just posted what?, 7 links to palestinian terrorism inside Lebanon and you response is;

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
"which you have provided no evidence for".


You are funny!:D

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir

You are funny!:D
Not half as funny as you son...

I've got 2 simple questions for you
1. please post a map (I'm sure you have a few) showing what you consider to be the fair and final borders of Israel. Is it the Original Zionist map that includes all the west bank, Gaza and great chunks of Jordan, Syria and Lebanon?
2. What do you consider the correct place for the IDF, inside or outside of these borders?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



I just posted what?, 7 links to palestinian terrorism inside Lebanon and you response is;




You are funny!:D

You think turf wars in refugee camps is "the same problem" as the terrorism going on in Israel? That must mean there is "the same problem" in every city in the world where turf wars exist over drugs/prostitution etc and lead to violence.

That is after all what you claimed.

So far you have demonstrated you can both construct and debunk strawmen - you must be very proud and I'm sure everyone is very impressed.

Any chance of providing real evidence that there is "the same problem" in Lebanon and Israel with regard to terrorist activity?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
You think turf wars in refugee camps is "the same problem" as the terrorism going on in Israel?


Oh, I see. Car bombs, killing Lebanese soldiers, assasinations and blowing up Fatah offices in Lebanese refugee camps is not terrorism.

Ok....sure....whatever....


Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
So far you have demonstrated you can both construct and debunk strawmen - you must be very proud and I'm sure everyone is very impressed.



So far you haven't been able to address why palestinian militants fight each other in Lebanon.

So far you haven't been able to address why palestinian militants fight the Lebanese army.

So far you haven't been able to address why Palestinians are surrounded by tanks and checkpoints in Lebanon.

So far you haven't been able to address why Palestinians are being arrested for bombing American interests in Lebanon.




And I am "demonstating that I can construct and debunk strawmen"???? Wow, you have a very interesting perspective of yourself.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by The Fool
Not half as funny as you son...

I've got 2 simple questions for you
1. please post a map (I'm sure you have a few) showing what you consider to be the fair and final borders of Israel. Is it the Original Zionist map that includes all the west bank, Gaza and great chunks of Jordan, Syria and Lebanon?
2. What do you consider the correct place for the IDF, inside or outside of these borders?


I ain't your son fool.

And this topic is not about "the borders of Israel".

In fact I would say that you are derailing this thread by purposely going off topic.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



Oh, I see. Car bombs, killing Lebanese soldiers, assasinations and blowing up Fatah offices in Lebanese refugee camps is not terrorism.




I've already told you I am impressed by your ability to build strawmen - please feel free to stop doing so if you actually want to have a useful debate.

Unless you actually have any evidence to show that your original claim is true (ie that there is the same problem in Lebanon and Israel), there is nothing to debate. Note this is something you have claimed (read your initial post if you can't recall doing so) so it is not a strawman.

Perhaps posting links to show a similar level of deaths from the activity in both countries would be a good start?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
I've already told you I am impressed by your ability to build strawmen - please feel free to stop doing so if you actually want to have a useful debate.


What a complete cop out from debating the issue.

The topic is Jaggy;

Why do the terrorists run rampant in Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon?

Why are they allowed to?

Why are they surrounded by Lebanese tanks and checkpoints?

Some 'strawman' argument.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



What a complete cop out from debating the issue.

The topic is Jaggy;

Why do the terrorists run rampant in Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon?

Why are they allowed to?

Why are they surrounded by Lebanese tanks and checkpoints?

Some 'strawman' argument.

The question you asked contained a conditional statement. I am questioning whether that statement is true. You have failed to produce any evidence that "the same problem" exists in Lebanon and Israel (you even bolded "the same" for emphasis). Until you do so there is nothing to debate.

For example one of your links refers to Lebanese and Palestinian men being sentenced in relation to bomb attacks. Perhaps you would provide a link to where Israelis and Palestinians are involved in similar plots to demonstrate that they have "the same problem".

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
The question you asked contained a conditional statement. I am questioning whether that statement is true.


No, you are avoiding the question.

It's not a Mensa test Jaggy.


Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
You have failed to produce any evidence that "the same problem" exists in Lebanon and Israel (you even bolded "the same" for emphasis). Until you do so there is nothing to debate.


A) Palestinians are in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians are in refugee camps in Lebanon.


B) Palestinians are fighting other Palestinians in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians are fighting other Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon.


C) Palestinians are attacking Israeli soldiers in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians are attacking Lebanese soldiers in Lebanon.


D) Palestinians have to go through checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians have to go through checkpoints in Lebanon.


E) Palestinians have tanks surrounding them in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinians have tanks surrounding them in Lebanon.


And then I provide many links to show that I am not lying about the events in Lebanon.


And then you come up with this gem;


Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
You have failed to produce any evidence....




Simply amazing logic Jaggy.....:rolleyes:

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Palestinians are not strapping bombs on their bodies and blowing up buses in Lebanon, they are in Israel.

Palestinians are not routinely attacking civilians in Lebanon, they are in Israel.

The Lebanese army is not using helicopter gunships to target Palestinian leaders, the Israeli army is.

Yet again you fail to demonstrate that "the same problem" exists.

And you are of course aware that neither the West Bank or Gaza fall within the internationally recognised borders of Israel, which means that your comparisons to those areas are invalid?

Of your examples, A, B and D could be argued to be true about refugees in the UK. Does that mean they have the same problem as well?

I would prefer if you tried and kept the debate above personal comments, but if you feel that is all you have....

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Yet again you fail to demonstrate that "the same problem" exists.


No... I think I just demonstrated that you are completely unable to discuss the topic... several times.