Truthers and the mosque? [Archive]

Sabrina

17th August 2010, 11:29 AM

I am not a truther, and I am not protesting, but I do think that the Muslim community has the right to build a place of worship where ever local law allows. As to whether it is in good taste, well I am not sure.

Ask yourselves this, however...How far out from GZ is considered far enough out? 2 blocks, 4 blocks, 8 blocks? Sounds silly, but really that is the heart of the entire thing.

TAM:)

I agree wholeheartedly. I'd say, let them build the mosque; from what I've heard, it isn't even in line of sight of the WTC Complex, so it's not like the folks visiting the site will have to have their eyeballs assaulted by the view of a mosque. :rolleyes: I'm probably far in the minority on that subject, but quite honestly I don't see what the big fuss is about. They have as much right to worship as I do, and it's not like they're planning on forcing everyone who walks within 200 feet of their mosque to convert to Islam.

As to the OP question, I have yet to hear a truther speak out for or against it, so your guess is as good as mine.

Alferd_Packer

17th August 2010, 12:26 PM

Has anyone discussed this with a truther?

How are they spinning it?

Sam.I.Am

17th August 2010, 12:27 PM

Let me start off by saying that I personally find choosing that particular location to build a Mosque offensive. I'm not religious in the slightest and religion has little to do with what I find offensive other than it being perverted by the 19 hijackers who self-identified with the people who want to build this Mosque. What I find offensive is the utter bad taste in choosing that particular location. T.A.M. asked how far away is far enough? I don't know, but what I can say is that building a Mosque in a location that was actually damaged in those attacks by falling landing gear or other debris is probably too close.

With that being said I didn't don a uniform and swear an oath to uphold and defend the constitution only when it didn't offend me. On the contrary, that's exactly when I and everyone else should be most aggressively protecting it and the people who offend us in a manner that is legal under our laws. They have every right to build it as long as our laws say they do and I have yet to see someone point to one law that doesn't say that they can't build it there or anywhere else in the area.

Finally, the people who want to build it had to know that it will be a magnet for other people, who will also exercise their rights under the very amendment that allows them to build the Mosque, to protest at the offending structure. It cuts both ways and building it there certainly isn't going to win the Muslims any more friends by pulling an attention whore stunt like this.

tl;dr summary: Offensive isn't against the law nor should it be. Let them build it but don't be surprised when it garners unwanted attention.

Alferd_Packer

17th August 2010, 01:08 PM

Sam I am, do you think that the Catholics should be banned from building churchs next to playgrounds?

DGM

17th August 2010, 01:15 PM

Personally, I think they should be able to build the mosque wherever they wanted. No true Muslim was involved with 9/11. Period end of story!

Sam.I.Am

17th August 2010, 01:34 PM

Sam I am, do you think that the Catholics should be banned from building churchs next to playgrounds?

No. And if you read my post I don't think that they should ban the Mosque either. Just that it's in bad taste. I assume that you're referring to the kiddy diddlers in the Catholic church so I'll address it here. Last I heard the abused children were more involved with the church than simply playing in a playground near or next to the church. I really don't follow the subject that closely to know much more than that so I'm not qualified to make a judgment call on it other than to say that as a kid I played in a lot of different playgrounds, some next to Catholic churches, others mere blocks away from Castro street in San Francisco. I was approached by no pedos at either that I could tell. Using the loaded approach of your question (which I take to be that most Catholic priests are pedos) is tantamount to saying that most gays are pedos. I highly doubt either one of those statements is even close to the truth.

The same goes for Muslims. I highly doubt that most or even many of them are sekrit terrists. That doesn't mean that I think that all of them are as pure as driven snow either but I'm not going to let the actions of a small subgroup of a larger group cause me to lump everyone in with the smaller group no matter how convenient it may be in the short term.

Bell

17th August 2010, 02:28 PM

Scanning the thread titles, I don't see any posts on what the truthers take on the GZ mosque is.

Given that they are insistant that Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11, what is their attitude toward the mosque?

Are there any truthers out there protesting FOR the mosque?

The same group that protests the captivity and upcoming trial of KSM.

Myriad

17th August 2010, 02:30 PM

According to a recent poll, 68% of Americans oppose the mosque.

That leaves just 32% to include all the undecideds, as well as everyone like myself and several posters on this thread and President Obama, who accept the mosque on the basis of principles of civil and constitutional rights.

Not much room is left for the percentage of Americans who do not oppose the mosque because they think 9/11 was an inside job so blaming or penalizing any muslims at all would make no sense. It appears that percentage is very small indeed.

So, I don't think you'll see much comment at all from Truthers about it.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Thunder

17th August 2010, 02:37 PM

I think Truthers are just pissed because some other 9-11 related issue is geting all the limelight.

DGM

17th August 2010, 02:42 PM

I think Truthers are just pissed because some other 9-11 related issue is geting all the limelight.
How can that be? 9/11 is a forbidden "blacked out" topic buy the MSN.

triforcharity

17th August 2010, 05:05 PM

nchammer326

17th August 2010, 05:17 PM

I just want to clarify something: while it keeps getting referred to as the "ground zero mosque" or whatever, it's not actually a mosque. It's an Islamic community center that has a designated space for prayer.

Just wanted to point that out.

bikerdruid

17th August 2010, 05:23 PM

Personally, I think they should be able to build the mosque wherever they wanted. No true Muslim was involved with 9/11. Period end of story!

precisely. just as true christians do not kill abortion doctors.

bikerdruid

17th August 2010, 05:25 PM

According to a recent poll, 68% of Americans oppose the mosque.

i have been told that more than half of americans don't believe in evolution.
the majority is apparently not always correct.

Mr.Herbert

17th August 2010, 05:38 PM

I have to agree with what the majority of us here are saying. I think it is in bad taste that this site was chosen. Bad taste, however does not trump our constitution.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (leader of the Cordoba Institute that is running the project) claims this will "bridge the great divide" between Muslims and the rest of America.I have to disagree. My opinion is that it with widen the gap with New Yorkers.
It was reported about 6 years ago Mr. Rauf who preaches a western style of Islam (democracy) claimed that the West had to "understand the terrorists' point of view." and that it was the Christians who "started killing civilians" in WWII. (from the Sydney Morning Herald http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/21/1079789939987.html)

Interesting times ahead I guess.

Mr.Herbert

17th August 2010, 05:52 PM

precisely. just as true christians do not kill abortion doctors.

I'm curious.. who decides who is a "true Christian" and who is a "true Muslim?"

The bible states in Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not kill. ....or depending on your version...Thou shalt not murder.

A Christian may claim to be doing God's work by protecting the "child" that the abortion doctor is about to "murder." Are they in the Biblical sense wrong?

If you talk to a Jehovah's Witness, they are the only Christians that will be saved. The rest will suffer the second death. If you talk to the Born-Again Christians, they claim all of us are going to hell unless we are "Born Again". The Sunni's and Shiites argue to the death over the legitimate successors of Mohammad.

One of the MANY reasons why religion IMO is a joke.

leftysergeant

17th August 2010, 06:00 PM

Carll68

17th August 2010, 07:19 PM

Too many ofthe rabble-rousers in the twoof movement are saying that Obama wants to impose Shari'a law for them to trurn around nad endorse one of the venues in which Shari'a will be interpeted.

I'm sure AJ would dislike seeing any mosque built anywhere in the USA.

Is anyone else surprised that the twoof twibe hasn't latched on to and qoute mined the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf qoute " U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened " and especially " Osama bin Laden was made in the USA." ???????

9/11 Chewy Defense

17th August 2010, 10:16 PM

I think if a mosque is built near GZ, there's going to be alot of people who would want that building gone. I don't think it's wise to build near hallowed ground. But that's my opinion!

SezMe

17th August 2010, 11:32 PM

I am not a truther, ...
No, you're just a foreign disinfo agent. Bastard. :) :) :)

SezMe

17th August 2010, 11:37 PM

I think if a mosque is built near GZ, there's going to be alot of people who would want that building gone. I don't think it's wise to build near hallowed ground. But that's my opinion!
But more seriously, I am troubled by the notion of "hallowed ground". Yes, a whole lot of innocent people died there but why does that make the location "hallowed"? How far away does this hallowness extend? Does the hallowness only apply to al quada? Or to Muslims? Or to religious people?

portlandatheist

17th August 2010, 11:55 PM

I don't think the 9/11 truth movement is up to anything at all these days

leftysergeant

18th August 2010, 02:46 AM

Twopofers are probably too eaten up with cognitive dissonance to do much one way or the other regarding the mosque.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:52 AM

To litterally get a perspective, here is the location of the planned mosque and cultural center at 45 Park Place, flagged with the letter A:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=de&geocode=&q=45+Park+Place,+New+York,+NY,+United+States&sll=40.713974,-74.010494&sspn=0.000978,0.002642&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=45+Park+Pl,+New+York,+10007&ll=40.713191,-74.009925&spn=0.001956,0.005284&t=h&z=18

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:58 AM

...
Are there any truthers out there protesting FOR the mosque?

Why should they? I suspect most people in the West, both in Europe and North America, have a similar opinion about mosques as they have about nuclear power plants, waste incinerators or forensic psychiatric wards: Build them if you must, but please nowhere near my house. I guess that goes for truthers as much as it goes for sane people. You can hate Islam even if you don't think islamists were responsible for 9/11, and you can love Islam even if you hate the islamist terrorists.

JihadJane

18th August 2010, 04:01 AM

Is anyone else surprised that the twoof twibe hasn't latched on to and qoute mined the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf qoute " U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened " and especially " Osama bin Laden was made in the USA." ???????

How foolish.

They did it coz they hate our fweedoms.

Jono

18th August 2010, 05:00 AM

Building a mosque at GZ? Seriously? :rolleyes:

Something's not right with that picture. If it's called the "GZ Mosque" simply because it's argued to be close to the neighbourhood of Ground Zero, and not smack cosy right up to it, then it really doesn't translate to that site symbolically in any way (imo). And, given what TAM noted on, it doesn't appear to be planned at or "right at" GZ.

Edit: Thanks for the link Oystein. What made me chuckle there was that it's going to be next door to a place called "The Amish Market", Dakota Roadhouse and Biddy's Pub. The muslim flock intended for that mosque has to be the coolest ever.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:10 AM

But more seriously, I am troubled by the notion of "hallowed ground". Yes, a whole lot of innocent people died there but why does that make the location "hallowed"? How far away does this hallowness extend? Does the hallowness only apply to al quada? Or to Muslims? Or to religious people?

Take advise from the NPS at all the Civil War Battlefields, mainly Gettysburg. The town of Gettysburg is trying to make the park look the way it did before the battle on July 1st, 2nd, & 3rd, 1863. They want every modern building out of park grounds.

Ground Zero is the Gettysburg of our time, they both are hallowed ground & we must preserve the memory of those that died in that location. By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 09:15 AM

T By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

..so much for 'the land of the free'....:rolleyes:
so, is three blocks better? four?

could you possibly be a little more dramatic?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:16 AM

..so much for 'the land of the free'....:rolleyes:
so, is three blocks better? four?

could you possibly be a little more dramatic?

You want dramatic? Ok! How about in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean? :D

Jono

18th August 2010, 09:25 AM

You want dramatic? Ok! How about in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean? :D

A mosque-platform at sea? Hmm...

Thunder

18th August 2010, 09:27 AM

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 09:29 AM

what about the titty shops, the betting parlor, and the porno stores?

should those be removed?

those are ok, because 'christians' frequent them.:rolleyes:

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:32 AM

what about the titty shops, the betting parlor, and the porno stores?

should those be removed?

America was built on those, it's like taking tobacco out of America. Can't be done! Besides just about everyone likes those shops, they love to bet & the pornos. :D

Thunder

18th August 2010, 09:34 AM

America was built on those, it's like taking tobacco out of America. Can't be done! Besides just about everyone likes those shops, they love to bet & the pornos. :D

kinda makes GZ and the area around it, pretty un-hallowed, if you ask me.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:35 AM

A mosque-platform at sea? Hmm...

Good idea isn't it? LOL!

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:37 AM

kinda makes GZ and the area around it, pretty un-hallowed, if you ask me.

Ask yourself this question: "Would I let a terrorist piss on the grave of my dead relative?"

Then think of yourself as being a 9/11 Family member!

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 09:47 AM

Ask yourself this question: "Would I let a terrorist piss on the grave of my dead relative?"

Then think of yourself as being a 9/11 Family member!

ity appears that near gz, it is more likely that someone coming out of a stripper bar could puke on those 'graves', or throw used condoms on them.

someone praying near the 'graves' seems preferable.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 09:48 AM

...By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

When the mosque opens in 2011, would you mind going there with me, so you can point fingers at the specific terrorists that won? Cause I would not know who that would be... Beers are on me! :)

Oystein

18th August 2010, 09:50 AM

Ask yourself this question: "Would I let a terrorist piss on the grave of my dead relative?"

Then think of yourself as being a 9/11 Family member!

Would you let anybody piss on the grave of my dead relative?
Is Park Place a grave?
Which terrorist is doing the pissing there? Care to name one, just one, and explain how that terrorist is doing any pissing at GZ?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:53 AM

When the mosque opens in 2011, would you mind going there with me, so you can point fingers at the specific terrorists that won? Cause I would not know who that would be... Beers are on me! :)

LOL! I wouldn't want to be like a "Truther" pointing fingers. This whole bloody affair about the mosque is delicate, but 1 thing's for sure, New Yorkers aren't gonna put up with a mosque near that site.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 09:54 AM

ity appears that near gz, it is more likely that someone coming out of a stripper bar could puke on those 'graves', or throw used condoms on them.

someone praying near the 'graves' seems preferable.

So on the nail!

The terrorists killed nearly 3000 "because they hate our freedom". Or so some say.

If we sink so low as to deny anybody the freedom to worship their god peacefully where they want (and in accordance with local zoning rules), that is the moment that the terrorists have won.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:54 AM

Would you let anybody piss on the grave of my dead relative?
Is Park Place a grave?
Which terrorist is doing the pissing there? Care to name one, just one, and explain how that terrorist is doing any pissing at GZ?

OMG, has people lost all reality with the figure of speech? :confused:

Oystein

18th August 2010, 09:56 AM

LOL! I wouldn't want to be like a "Truther" pointing fingers. This whole bloody affair about the mosque is delicate, but 1 thing's for sure, New Yorkers aren't gonna put up with a mosque near that site.

Well, you make a statement there about some vague group of people. Just want you to be a little more specific: Are there any terrorists in that downtown Manhattan muslim community? Or have any members of Al Quada had their hands in choosing that location? Inquirimg minds want to know...

Sceptic minds want evidence that support claims, or call the claimant on his unsupported claims. ;)

Oystein

18th August 2010, 09:58 AM

OMG, has people lost all reality with the figure of speech? :confused:

A figure of speech should say something true about something real.
What is it?
Yeah, call me stupid, but I couldn't identify the true statement about something real in your figure of speech. Please elaborate :)

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 09:58 AM

Well, you make a statement there about some vague group of people. Just want you to be a little more specific: Are there any terrorists in that downtown Manhattan muslim community? Or have any members of Al Quada had their hands in choosing that location? Inquirimg minds want to know...

Sceptic minds want evidence that support claims, or call the claimant on his unsupported claims. ;)

As far as we all know there are terrorists in America. They might be "below the radar" but they might be there. Just like those Russian spies that were caught, we didn't know they were living here, but in some way we knew they had to be here.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:00 AM

A figure of speech should say something true about something real.
What is it?
Yeah, call me stupid, but I couldn't identify the true statement about something real in your figure of speech. Please elaborate :)

This isn't about me, it's about the mosque. Like I said in an earlier post: "I think if a mosque is built near GZ, there's going to be alot of people who would want that building gone. I don't think it's wise to build near hallowed ground. But that's my opinion!"

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:03 AM

As far as we all know there are terrorists in America. They might be "below the radar" but they might be there. Just like those Russian spies that were caught, we didn't know they were living here, but in some way we knew they had to be here.

Undoubtedly, some of these terrorists are Christians, some of these even motivated by their faith.

Now what to do with St. Peter's church on Church and Barclay Streets, which is even closer to hallowed grounds hmm hmm.......

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:06 AM

Undoubtedly, some of these terrorists are Christians, some of these even motivated by their faith.

Now what to do with St. Peter's church on Church and Barclay Streets, which is even closer to hallowed grounds hmm hmm.......

Why are you bringing up other churches for? Are you trying to tell us that you're for the mosque to be near GZ?? That's why you have all this negativity showing in your posts???

Inquiring minds want to know!

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:06 AM

This isn't about me, it's about the mosque. Like I said in an earlier post: "I think if a mosque is built near GZ, there's going to be alot of people who would want that building gone. I don't think it's wise to build near hallowed ground. But that's my opinion!"

Yeah, your opinion is cool. There's something you don't like. All cool.

Just that figure of speech that suggested that Muslims are one terrorist bunch. Got me worried. Cause, well, it's just wrong.

Besides, you won't make any muslims go away by denying them a place to worship.

This is a sceptics' forum. Any appeal to xenophobia can be expected to meet with quick criticism.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:11 AM

Yeah, your opinion is cool. There's something you don't like. All cool.

Just that figure of speech that suggested that Muslims are one terrorist bunch. Got me worried. Cause, well, it's just wrong.

Besides, you won't make any muslims go away by denying them a place to worship.

This is a sceptics' forum. Any appeal to xenophobia can be expected to meet with quick criticism.

Opinions are great!

Was it any different when the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor? Sure, there's alot of resentment from the WWII vets, but some did forgive, as did the Japanese forgave.

Will the state of New York allow the mosque there? Since there is a seperation of church & state!

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:11 AM

Why are you bringing up other churches for? Are you trying to tell us that you're for the mosque to be near GZ?? That's why you have all this negativity showing in your posts???

Inquiring minds want to know!

i support the GZ Mosque for the simple reason that haters and extremists are against it. :p

and cause I respect the Constitution.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:12 AM

Why are you bringing up other churches for? Are you trying to tell us that you're for the mosque to be near GZ?? That's why you have all this negativity showing in your posts???

Inquiring minds want to know!

Why are you bringing up terrorists? We are talking about the muslim community and their place of worship.

Where is the connection to terrorists? Just because the real terrorists were muslims also? See, that's where my bringing up other churches comes in: There are also real terrorists who are motivated by their Christian faith.
Inquiring minds satisfied now? Should be easy to spot the analogy.

I personally don't care much if or where this or that religious community builds their place of worship, as long as they abide by zoning rules and general law. There should not be special laws and rules for or against individual religions, don't you agree? So I am neither for nor against a mosque near GZ. However, what I am for, is the right of any community group to freely own and operate real estate for their purposes wherever they want, as long as they abide by the rules that everyone must abide by.

grandmastershek

18th August 2010, 10:13 AM

Sam I am, do you think that the Catholics should be banned from building churchs next to playgrounds?

DAILY SHOW!!!

You can wear your yamulka on Good Friday....Should you?

BigAl

18th August 2010, 10:15 AM

Why are you bringing up other churches for? Are you trying to tell us that you're for the mosque to be near GZ?? That's why you have all this negativity showing in your posts???

Inquiring minds want to know!

The people that will attend that mosque had nothing to do with the people that executed 9/11.
Guilt by association is un-American.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:16 AM

i support the GZ Mosque for the simple reason that haters and extremists are against it. :p

and cause I respect the Constitution.

It's protected by the U.S. Constitution, that's true. But whose gonna protect the mosque, the NYPD??

grandmastershek

18th August 2010, 10:17 AM

Funny no one is concerned about the strip clubs on that hallowed ground.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:18 AM

Why are you bringing up terrorists? We are talking about the muslim community and their place of worship.

Where is the connection to terrorists? Just because the real terrorists were muslims also? See, that's where my bringing up other churches comes in: There are also real terrorists who are motivated by their Christian faith.
Inquiring minds satisfied now? Should be easy to spot the analogy.

I personally don't care much if or where this or that religious community builds their place of worship, as long as they abide by zoning rules and general law. There should not be special laws and rules for or against individual religions, don't you agree? So I am neither for nor against a mosque near GZ. However, what I am for, is the right of any community group to freely own and operate real estate for their purposes wherever they want, as long as they abide by the rules that everyone must abide by.

People in NY just won't stand for it. NYers are tough people to deal with.

Besides we have to think about the new Tower that's supposed to be built at GZ. It's not built yet, & having a mosque built before the Tower is like telling every NYer to go F themselves.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:18 AM

It's protected by the U.S. Constitution, that's true. But whose gonna protect the mosque, the NYPD??

hopefully they won't be needed, but if the NYPD had to protect the Mosque, what's the problem?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:19 AM

Opinions are great!

Not all opinions are equally great :p

Was it any different when the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor? Sure, there's alot of resentment from the WWII vets, but some did forgive, as did the Japanese forgave.
...

Uhm - I didn't get that bit about Pearl Harbour...
There are, I presume, Christian churches (even US-based denominations), McDonalds joints, and other such profane and un-Japanese things in Tokyo, and quite likely in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well. Despite of what the Americans did to those cities... (and despite of how most Americans to this day think about the conduct of the war).
I think that is pretty cool of the Japs. I am also very much for Burger Kings in Hamburg or Dresden. And happy they sell "Butterbrote" in Kiev.

...
Will the state of New York allow the mosque there? Since there is a seperation of church & state!

Uhm yes - because there is apparently no law against it. What has that got to do with the separation? :confused:

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:19 AM

The people that will attend that mosque had nothing to do with the people that executed 9/11.
Guilt by association is un-American.

Were we any different when we went to Iraq for a second time?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:20 AM

People in NY just won't stand for it. NYers are tough people to deal with.

Besides we have to think about the new Tower that's supposed to be built at GZ. It's not built yet, & having a mosque built before the Tower is like telling every NYer to go F themselves.

I AM A NEW YORKER. AND I RESPECT FREEDOM OF THE RELIGION, SO BUILD THE MOSQUE.

and everyone I know who is not a bigot, has no problem with the Mosque.

as for the Freedom tower, its already at 40 stories or more.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:21 AM

It's protected by the U.S. Constitution, that's true. But whose gonna protect the mosque, the NYPD??

Are you calling for terrorist acts against New York citizens, or are you just predicting such terrorist acts?

I sure hope the NYPD will stand firm against the kind of terrorism you seem to envision, because that is their damned job.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:21 AM

hopefully they won't be needed, but if the NYPD had to protect the Mosque, what's the problem?

Mad NYers, that's the problem. Just like those race riots in the 1960's where black churches were burnt down. I see that same scene being played out with the mosque.

I really have a bad feeling about this!

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:23 AM

azazal

18th August 2010, 10:23 AM

LOL! I wouldn't want to be like a "Truther" pointing fingers. This whole bloody affair about the mosque is delicate, but 1 thing's for sure, New Yorkers aren't gonna put up with a mosque near that site.

PSSST...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38730223/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/

Let me take you, in conclusion, to 20 Warren Street. Not much to look at. Not from across the street Not from up close. That open door is the only thing that distinguishes it from the rest of the grill-fronts of the neighborhood.
That, and the yellow sign there. "Entrance To Islamic Center." It's in the basement. It is a Muslim house of worship. Masjid-Manhattan. It lost its lease in a larger building down the street, two years ago. The new facility is so small that only about 20 percent of worshipers can use it, at a time. But "Masjid-Manhattan" opened in early 1970. Four blocks away, the World Trade Center opened, in December 1970.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:24 AM

People in NY just won't stand for it. NYers are tough people to deal with.
...

And why won't they stand for the freedom of their fellow New Yorkers? You see, we here, as sceptics, like for people with a stand to have rational reason for their stand. What is that rational reason?

Are the muslims who worship in lower Manhattan not "People in NY"?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:24 AM

I'm done with this issue. George Washington was right in his farewell address that if we got involved in foreign politics it'd be madness. Well this whole damn thing about the mosque is madness!

I'm not a political person, but I have a right to express my opinions, same with everyone else.

I just feel that this mosque is going to cause trouble in the long run & New York is gonna pay for it.

Skeptic Guy

18th August 2010, 10:25 AM

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:26 AM

I just feel that this mosque is going to cause trouble in the long run & New York is gonna pay for it.

there are already Mosques in NYC. nothing wrong with one more.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:26 AM

Were we any different when we went to Iraq for a second time?

No. Not much different. That's why the esteem for the USA has sunk so low around the world since 2003, and that's why most of us here think of Bush, Cheney and Co. as possible war criminals. Because they invaded another country based on a hodgepodge of lies, raw emotion and prejudice, and against all applicable law.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:27 AM

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:28 AM

No. Not much different. That's why the esteem for the USA has sunk so low around the world since 2003, and that's why most of us here think of Bush, Cheney and Co. as possible war criminals. Because they invaded another country based on a hodgepodge of lies, raw emotion and prejudice, and against all applicable law.

This just keeps getting worse, doesn't it?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:29 AM

Mad NYers, that's the problem. Just like those race riots in the 1960's where black churches were burnt down. I see that same scene being played out with the mosque.

I really have a bad feeling about this!

What you really are saying is: Even though the Constitution allows all religions to worship peacefully where they want, we can't let that freedom stand, we MUST restrict this freedom, in order to appease terrorists. You are bowing to the threat of white christian terrorism even before it has raised its head.

That is a defeatist stance. You tell us that you want the terrorists win. Those who would beat up worshippers or burn down a place of worship. Or whatever you fear.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:31 AM

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:32 AM

Chewy- a year ago, you went on a long rant about the 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech, etc etc etc.

but now, you are taking the side AGAINST the 1st Amendment and Freedom of Religion.

why the turn around?

..plus you still haven't told us whats wrong with the NYPD guarding a mosque.

I'm not against the 1st Amendment or the Freedom of Religion. It's just that it's going to be 9 years next month since 9/11 & I personally feel that it's too soon to have a mosque near GZ.

Remember Kent State University?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:32 AM

Every September, during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, NYPD stand guard outside lots of synagogues across NYC. Even the ones my family goes to.

Oh my, all that over-time pay. Maybe we should just move the synagogue to a safer location huh...and ask Jews not to build, or live, or breath, in neighborhoods where they may not be tolerated.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 10:33 AM

I'm not against the 1st Amendment or the Freedom of Religion. It's just that it's going to be 9 years next month since 9/11 & I personally feel that it's too soon to have a mosque near GZ.

Remember Kent State University?

:p:p:p:p

I'm sorry...what??????

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:33 AM

:confused:

How is this an issue of foreign politics? :confused:

U.S. Bases on "Holy Lands".

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 10:35 AM

Let me start off by saying that I personally find choosing that particular location to build a Mosque offensive.

Actually what is offensive is finding it offensive that a Mosque (which is not a Mosque) is built somewhat close to Ground Zero. It implies that Islam was connected to 9/11, which is unfortunaltely one interpretation that evolved throughout 9/11, but also one that couln´t be more superficial and cliché. As was mentioned one could also argue that "true christians do not kill abortion doctors". I wouldnt go for that entirely because I don´t believe we are not able to identify the "true words" (as words are created by people and not existing apart from them), but yes it is an intersting point, that christian terrorists are rather not framed by religion but islamic people (or people that look "islamic") are.
I wouldn´t blame you on that because it might be the cultural reception you were socialized in, a reception that obviously is based on a "orientalistic" point of view on Islam. Anyway I really recommend you to think about your reaction already being offensive because you seem to care for the future as you said "Let them build it but don't be surprised when it garners unwanted attention." The whole discussion taking place in the U.S. is offensive, even though I can also understand why it takes place. Just wanted to say that if you (personally) want things to change then just let them build their community center, calm down people that start to get irritated and ask them if they don´t find it a bit unfair to imply these people have anything in common with 9/11. And ask yourself what you are actually criticizing and why. Your way of thinking is one part of the production and strenghening of radical group perspectives. I don´t say you should be critical and talk about that, but I ask you to be more sensitive, especially if you a re not really into the culture in focus.
Just sayin.

DGM

18th August 2010, 10:37 AM

Remember Kent State University?
Yes I do. I was 11. What's your point?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:39 AM

This just keeps getting worse, doesn't it?

What does? :confused:

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:42 AM

U.S. Bases on "Holy Lands".

That could be a good topic for an entirely different thread in this sub-forum, but I fail to see what it has to do with the right of New Yorkers to worship their god as they see fit :confused:

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:46 AM

What you really are saying is: Even though the Constitution allows all religions to worship peacefully where they want, we can't let that freedom stand, we MUST restrict this freedom, in order to appease terrorists. You are bowing to the threat of white christian terrorism even before it has raised its head.

That is a defeatist stance. You tell us that you want the terrorists win. Those who would beat up worshippers or burn down a place of worship. Or whatever you fear.

I fear that this country will one day be destroyed. Not by the hands of an invader, but from within.

With everyone arguing about petty differences & opinions, no wonder why the rest of the world looks at us like we're the "bad guys".

History is my subject, basically my passion. Sure we can uphold the Constitution for all it's worth, we can fight over lands of our choosing, we can take human life in an instant. But what we have is an understanding that we, the people, have to control ourselves. Without control we'll have chaos.

This whole thing about the mosque is causing people to be chaotic. Look at our attitudes in this very thread. It's chaos!

Expressing an opinion is a matter of words. Words might hurt, but it's just words none the less. It's what we do that counts.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:47 AM

Yes I do. I was 11. What's your point?

Mosque, people protesting in front of mosque, shootings. That kind of point!

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 10:47 AM

By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

Are you seriously equaling islamic people with terrorist. Well, do it, but for sake explain what gives you the right to do so. Are you realizing how mad your argument is. Here another one:

Ask yourself this question: "Would I let a terrorist piss on the grave of my dead relative?"

They are not pissing on any grave, there are building a house for their religion. These people have anything in common with 9/11. And even if they would build it as a provocation (which i strongly doubt and ask for good arguments if you don´t agree): it would never be anything like a blasphemy like pissing on a grave. In this case you are the one being offensive and heating up the situation.

Were we any different when we went to Iraq for a second time?

Strange argument, because the fact that the Iraq war was actually guilt by association doesn´t make the whole thing any better than it is. You are breaking with universal ideals that are as well ideals of the States.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:51 AM

Are you seriously equaling islamic people with terrorist. Well, do it, but for sake explain what gives you the right to do so. Are you realizing how mad your argument is. Here another one:

They are not pissing on any grave, there are building a house for their religion. These people have anything in common with 9/11. And even if they would build it as a provocation (which i strongly doubt and ask for good arguments if you don´t agree): it would never be anything like a blasphemy like pissing on a grave. In this case you are the one being offensive and heating up the situation.

Strange argument, because the fact that the Iraq war was actually guilt by association doesn´t make the whole thing any better than it is. You are breaking with universal ideals that are as well ideals of the States.

So if extremists in NY some how manage to destroy the mosque, does that make me a "bad guy" for just saying what's going to happen eventually?

Knowledge is based on history, history will tend to repeat itself if we're not careful. History tells me that bad things will happen.

DGM

18th August 2010, 10:52 AM

Mosque, people protesting in front of mosque, shootings. That kind of point!
Now that's one hell of a stretch. The two circumstances aren't even remotely similar.

:o

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 10:54 AM

Now that's one hell of a stretch. The two circumstances aren't even remotely similar.

:o

Figure out how many people that live in NY own guns of all sorts, even those that are illegal. Too many to count!

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:54 AM

I fear that this country will one day be destroyed. Not by the hands of an invader, but from within.

With everyone arguing about petty differences & opinions, no wonder why the rest of the world looks at us like we're the "bad guys".

History is my subject, basically my passion. Sure we can uphold the Constitution for all it's worth, we can fight over lands of our choosing, we can take human life in an instant. But what we have is an understanding that we, the people, have to control ourselves. Without control we'll have chaos.

No, you cannot fight over land. Not anymore.
No, you cannot take life in an instant. You must not.
If you fight over (read: grab) land, occupy territories, kill people in an instant, then yes, some will feel aggravated a bit!
So stop THAT kind of chaos!
Do take control!
And do uphold the Constitution! You know, that piece of paper that grants everyone the right to worship (or not) as they see fit. That tells the government it is bound by international treaties as the Supreme Law of the Land and must therefore not illegally invade other countries.
Do not bow to people who want to take away these freedoms with violence! Do not bow to the terrorists who fight against the rights of their fellow New Yorkers just because those happen to be muslims!

This whole thing about the mosque is causing people to be chaotic. Look at our attitudes in this very thread. It's chaos!

No! It is not the mosque that causes chaos! It is the defeatist stance of people like you that allows chaos to enter is!

Expressing an opinion is a matter of words. Words might hurt, but it's just words none the less. It's what we do that counts.

Oh words do incite and perpetuate hatred, and hatred breeds chaos!

Skeptic Guy

18th August 2010, 10:56 AM

LOL! I wouldn't want to be like a "Truther" pointing fingers. This whole bloody affair about the mosque is delicate, but 1 thing's for sure, New Yorkers aren't gonna put up with a mosque near that site.

Speaking as a New Yorker, yes, yes we are "gonna put up with a mosque near that site".

It's protected by the U.S. Constitution, that's true. But whose gonna protect the mosque, the NYPD??

Yes, the NYPD will protect the mosque.

People in NY just won't stand for it. NYers are tough people to deal with.

Besides we have to think about the new Tower that's supposed to be built at GZ. It's not built yet, & having a mosque built before the Tower is like telling every NYer to go F themselves.

There isn't just one tower, but a few. Tower 1, formerly known as The Freedom Tower, is in the process of being built now. I'd say it's 40% done? Building 7, I believe it is, is already built. The others, not so much. You might want to define yourself a bit more. Not that it's a race to see which will be completed first.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 10:59 AM

So if extremists in NY some how manage to destroy the mosque, does that make me a "bad guy" for just saying what's going to happen eventually?
...

But it was YOU who argued earlier that allowing a mosque near GZ would be akin to "letting the terrorists win". Sounded like you did not want any terrorists to win.

Now you argue in favour of terrorists winning a battle - this time the battle over (religious) freedom in the USA!

Care to untangle that contradiction? Do you generally want terrorists to win, do you generally not want terrorists to win, or do you favour some terrorists over others? Are NYC terrorists better than foreign terrorists? Are muslim victims of terrorism less worth of a strong stand against terrorism than mixed religion victims?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:00 AM

No! It is not the mosque that causes chaos! It is the defeatist stance of people like you that allows chaos to enter is!

People like me? That I express my opinion sorely based on my thoughts that this mosque is a bad idea & I'm being made out like the "bad guy" here for expressing that opinion under the Constitution in the 1st Amendment, that I have no right to express my opinion on here, based on the opinions of those who don't want my opinion?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 11:01 AM

Figure out how many people that live in NY own guns of all sorts, even those that are illegal. Too many to count!

Ok. How about this proposal: Ban anyone who owns a gun from developing anything around GZ.

Fair enough?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:01 AM

But it was YOU who argued earlier that allowing a mosque near GZ would be akin to "letting the terrorists win". Sounded like you did not want any terrorists to win.

Now you argue in favour of terrorists winning a battle - this time the battle over (religious) freedom in the USA!

Care to untangle that contradiction? Do you generally want terrorists to win, do you generally not want terrorists to win, or do you favour some terrorists over others? Are NYC terrorists better than foreign terrorists? Are muslim victims of terrorism less worth of a strong stand against terrorism than mixed religion victims?

Me, argue in "favor" of the terrorists? Since when did I get the blame for being a "terrorist sympathizer"? I'm not a Truther you know!

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:03 AM

Ok. How about this proposal: Ban anyone who owns a gun from developing anything around GZ.

Fair enough?

2nd Amendment wouldn't allow that.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 11:03 AM

People like me? That I express my opinion sorely based on my thoughts that this mosque is a bad idea & I'm being made out like the "bad guy" here for expressing that opinion under the Constitution in the 1st Amendment, that I have no right to express my opinion on here, based on the opinions of those who don't want my opinion?

You have every right to voice your opinion, and I have every right to call you on its contradictions, xenophobia and defeatism. ;)

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:04 AM

Speaking as a New Yorker, yes, yes we are "gonna put up with a mosque near that site".

Yes, the NYPD will protect the mosque.

There isn't just one tower, but a few. Tower 1, formerly known as The Freedom Tower, is in the process of being built now. I'd say it's 40% done? Building 7, I believe it is, is already built. The others, not so much. You might want to define yourself a bit more. Not that it's a race to see which will be completed first.

Yeah I know, it's just that I'm getting blindsided for having an opinion.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 11:04 AM

Me, argue in "favor" of the terrorists? Since when did I get the blame for being a "terrorist sympathizer"? I'm not a Truther you know!

You say you don't want the mosque because you fear extremist New Yorkers shooting at it or the people in it.

In other words: You recommend to bow to the potential demands of hypothetical terrorists.

Right?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:06 AM

You have every right to voice your opinion, and I have every right to call you on its contradictions, xenophobia and defeatism. ;)

Well we'll see down the road. I'm telling ya, something bad will happen to that mosque & we'll get the blame for being the real "terrorists". The world will know if & when that happens.

God forbid if anyone does anything stupid to that mosque.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 11:08 AM

You say you don't want the mosque because you fear extremist New Yorkers shooting at it or the people in it.

In other words: You recommend to bow to the potential demands of hypothetical terrorists.

Right?

Wrong, I keep telling you people that something bad is going to come from this. Both the NYers & the people in the mosque are gonna suffer for it. Mainly the NYers.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 11:26 AM

Wrong, I keep telling you people that something bad is going to come from this. Both the NYers & the people in the mosque are gonna suffer for it. Mainly the NYers.

You were already quite specific on that "something" :confused:

Spindrift

18th August 2010, 11:44 AM

So if extremists in NY some how manage to destroy the mosque, does that make me a "bad guy" for just saying what's going to happen eventually?

There is no mosque. Why do you insist on calling it that? Is it because Cultural Center isn't quite as inflammatory?

Alareth

18th August 2010, 11:51 AM

I don't see what the big deal is. We all know people who live in caves aren't smart enough to build a mosque.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 12:21 PM

There is no mosque. Why do you insist on calling it that? Is it because Cultural Center isn't quite as inflammatory?

Huh? The cultural center will have (IIRC: at its top floor) a room for communal prayer and worship - such is the definition of a Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque).

SnakeTongue

18th August 2010, 12:27 PM

Expressing an opinion is a matter of words. Words might hurt, but it's just words none the less. It's what we do that counts.

Why the words MOSQUE IN THE GROUND ZERO hurt you so much, when they are not even true, none the less?

SezMe

18th August 2010, 12:33 PM

Spindrift

18th August 2010, 12:39 PM

Huh? The cultural center will have (IIRC: at its top floor) a room for communal prayer and worship - such is the definition of a Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque).

My local hospital has a chapel. That doesn't make it a church.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 12:46 PM

My local hospital has a chapel. That doesn't make it a church.

Yes, because a church and a mosque are two different things. Typically, a church is just that house of prayer and mass, whereas a mosque is typically a multi-purpose-building that includes a prayer room for the community.

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 12:51 PM

So if extremists in NY some how manage to destroy the mosque, does that make me a "bad guy" for just saying what's going to happen eventually?

Knowledge is based on history, history will tend to repeat itself if we're not careful. History tells me that bad things will happen.

Chewy, you are not actually commenting my post, you try to evade the - excuse me - stupid things you said.

You alleged islamic people to be terrorists, which is obviously a racist statement. And you pretended the community center to be a piss on the grave of the victims of 9/11. You were blocking BigAls argument that there can't be guilt by association by saying that the US government (supported by vast parts of the us-society) did so in Iraq. Talking like this it is a travesty you come up with wise sentences like "knowledge is based on history". You are not taking part in the debate, you are crushing it.

P.S.: Your argument against the "mosque" at the beginning was NOT the security of the muslim society but some metaphysical moral argument. You are twisting around and it's sad watching you doing so.

@Oysten

"Huh? The cultural center will have (IIRC: at its top floor) a room for communal prayer and worship - such is the definition of a Mosque."

Muslims wouldnt call every institution with a prayer room a mosque, likewise you wouldnt call every jewish prayer room a synagogue. You also don't call a chapel a church. You could actually do that and it wouldnt be totally wrong, specially if the institution has an Imam, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to make NO difference between a building with minarets, muezzin and conspicuous or even traditional architectural elements and a common house with a prayer room. Why? Because the WHOLE discussion is focussing on symbolic elements. I do not support that but it is like this (and I think nobody here would reject that). And because it is like this it IS imho important to make a difference between community center and mosque. Well, it is important if your main interest is the solution of the conflict, but there are obviously many people that are not interested in solving the conflict but only in them being right about everything.

Btw. most enterprises do have prayer rooms and nobody would call them a mosque. I know that's a killer argument but it's worth mentioning as many people seem to forget about it (or simply not knowing it).

Best regards!

P.S.: It is true that mosques are often multi-purpose-buildings but again: theres a difference between a building primarily used for prayer and a library using 5% of the whole space and a building in which 5% of the whole space is used for prayer. There is no need merging alltogether...only if you want it to be a more symbolic place than it actually is. As a former student of identity politics i strongly advise to take care of the use of words even if there are "technically" neither right nor wrong.

nchammer326

18th August 2010, 12:54 PM

Huh? The cultural center will have (IIRC: at its top floor) a room for communal prayer and worship - such is the definition of a Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque).

Not it isn't.

http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-cordoba-house-is-not-a-mosque/

Many media outlets have covered the topic of the Cordoba House by calling it a mosque. While it would be completely legal for us to build a mosque, and many mosques already exist in New York, we feel this would not serve the mission of the Cordoba Initiative. The Cordoba Initiative is focused on bridging Muslim-West relations, with a special focus on expanding the definition of American to include the millions of Muslim Americans as a part of the national fabric.

To build a mosque would simply squander this great opportunity for engagement. While a mosque is necessary for serving the needs of Muslims, we are building a community center for all New Yorkers. What YCMA is to Christians or the JCC is for Jews, we want the Cordoba House to be for Muslim Americans. This demands that it meets certain standards, such as welcoming everyone from the community, and refraining from proselytizing. With an auditorium, swimming pool, fitness center, conference rooms, and a restaurant, by no standard of the imagination could this community center be considered a mosque.

http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/what-is-prayer-space/

Among the questions we have heard regarding Cordoba House is what is the definition of a prayer space, and how is that different than a mosque.

Most practicing Muslims pray five times a day, at set times. While some Muslims do their prayers in a mosque, most pray where they are, whether at work, school, or home. Much like other faiths, they have a house of worship, but prayers can take place anywhere.

Prayer space does not signify a mosque. Certain aspects of Cordoba House disqualifies it as a mosque, including space for musical performance or a restaurant, which are not allowed to be in a mosque. However, additional prayer is necessary as the existing nearby mosques are no longer able to tend to the need for prayer space.

Furthermore, Cordoba House’s vision is bigger than being a mosque. It is about creating a community center that serves all New Yorkers. A prime example of this fact is the planned meditation room, where people of any faith can pray or meditate. For all these reasons we believe it is imperative to have prayer space in the Cordoba House.

Myriad

18th August 2010, 12:58 PM

From what I've been able to determine about the technical definitions of the key terms, the proposed cultural center includes a mosque.

If a hospital included a facility devoted exclusively to Christian prayer and worship services directed by a Christian clergyman, it would indeed be a church. (Not the whole hospital, but the portion in question.) Is the plan for the top floor of the cultural center for it to be available for use by groups of any faith wanting to use it? If not, the analogy to a chapel in a modern hospital (in the US at least) fails.

I'm not opposed to the mosque, but I am opposed to using misleading and inaccurate distortion of terminology to pretend no issue exists.

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: I cross-posted this with the previous post. It appears the Cordoba Initiative disagrees with the other sources I consulted regarding the definition and qualifications of a mosque. Of course as an interested party they do not have the final word on the matter, but in light of these claims I'll have to consider further.

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 12:58 PM

Me, argue in "favor" of the terrorists? Since when did I get the blame for being a "terrorist sympathizer"? I'm not a Truther you know!

you are claiming that new yorkers will destroy the mosque, or take arms against the worshippers.
that would make said 'new yorkers' terrorists, and you are in support of them.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:01 PM

Spindrift

18th August 2010, 01:03 PM

A mosque is a place of worship that may have a community center. They are building a cultural center that has a prayer room. There is a difference whether you want to admit it or not.
Whether or not it is called a mosque or a cultural center is irrelevant any way. Beyond having the right to build their center, they have the permits to do so. Two blocks from ground zero is not ground zero. Should Oklahoma City ban all blonde ex-marines from opening businesses near the bombing because of Timothy McVay?

Spindrift

18th August 2010, 01:08 PM

None of you will ever understand why I dislike having the mosque near GZ.

For me, the events of 9/11 hit home. Flight 93 would've crashed on top of my house that day, killing both my parents & me (I was visiting them) if it had gone down in Johnstown, PA. My father & I were up & we heard this loud engine noise right above the house. A second it was there, the next it was gone.

So don't give me any lip as to why I don't think the mosque near GZ is a "good idea".

You're right, we'll never understand because your reason makes no sense. I live a lot closer to Manhattan than you do to Shanksville. I'd been to the WTC on business a few weeks before 9/11. However by no stretch of the imagination do I consider that a near miss and condemn a whole religion for what 19 lunatics perpetrated.

ETA: Flight 93 didn't fly over Johnstown anyway.

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:09 PM

None of you will ever understand why I dislike having the mosque near GZ.

For me, the events of 9/11 hit home. Flight 93 would've crashed on top of my house that day, killing both my parents & me (I was visiting them) if it had gone down in Johnstown, PA. My father & I were up & we heard this loud engine noise right above the house. A second it was there, the next it was gone.

So don't give me any lip as to why I don't think the mosque near GZ is a "good idea".

Chewy, the fact that you were traumatized and had to suffer is no reason, I repeat, NO REASON to discriminate other people or equating them with terrorist only because this is YOUR reception. People that are emotionally involved should take their time to think instead of agitating and saying bottomless things like you said. You are offending honest and innocent people by pretending they would be terrorist by religion. NOTHING excuses your irrational argumentation. If you want to take part in the discussion go ahead and try to argue why you can claim a muslim community is connected to 9/11. What you are doing is supporting the rhetoric of Al Qaida by pretending Islam is Terror against Western Society/USA. Think about it.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:15 PM

Chewy, the fact that you were traumatized and had to suffer is no reason, I repeat, NO REASON to discriminate other people or equating them with terrorist only because this is YOUR reception. People that are emotionally involved should take their time to think instead of agitating and saying bottomless things like you said. You are offending honest and innocent people by pretending they would be terrorist by religion. NOTHING excuses your irrational argumentation. If you want to take part in the discussion go ahead and try to argue why you can claim a muslim community is connected to 9/11.

Just because I said that having the mosque near GZ makes me "discriminate"? I didn't call them "terrorists" in any of my posts, did I? No I didn't so don't even go there!

Bottomless things? So my life & the lives of my parents don't mean a thing? That's rather harsh, isn't it?

Why would I need to claim that they're "connected" to 9/11. I've said it plenty of times before that no good is gonna come from this mosque idea.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that?

Just because I've got a bad feeling about it doesn't mean people can slander me for pete sakes.

nchammer326

18th August 2010, 01:18 PM

Chewy, for the five hundredth time, it's not a mosque.

From Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_propos ed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html

The project has been mischaracterized, so I want to explain clearly what it would be. Our planned 13-story community center is intended for Park Place between Church St. and West Broadway. It is not a mosque, although it will include a space for Muslim prayer services. It will have a swimming pool, basketball court, meeting rooms, a 500-seat auditorium, banquet facilities and many other things a community needs to be healthy. The center will offer theatrical programming, art exhibitions and cooking classes. These are amenities missing now from this part of the city.

And, yes, the center will have a public memorial to the victims of 9/11 as well as a meditation room where all will be welcome for quiet reflection. The center will support soul and body.

The center will be open to all regardless of religion. Like a YMCA, the 92nd St. Y or the Jewish Community Center uptown, it will admit everyone. It will be a center for all New Yorkers.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:22 PM

You're right, we'll never understand because your reason makes no sense.

ETA: Flight 93 didn't fly over Johnstown anyway.

So in other words: Life doesn't mean a thing & makes no sense?

And about Flight 93 "not flying" over Johnstown? Really?? Looky here:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/r/966339/detail.html

Witness accounts have the plane flying over Johnstown, Pa., before crashing in Stonycreek Township.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:24 PM

Chewy, for the five hundredth time, it's not a mosque.

From Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_propos ed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html

I get it! OK!

I just don't like people slandering me for no apparent reason & getting into a hissy fit because my opinion doesn't match theirs.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:28 PM

None of you will ever understand why I dislike having the mosque near GZ.

how far away does a mosque have to be from GZ, for you to be comfortable?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:30 PM

how far away does a mosque have to be from GZ, for you to be comfortable?

As far as it can be! But I've said it before, that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:31 PM

Remember Kent State University?

at Kent State, Ohio National Guard troops opened fire on peaceful Vietnam war protestors.

what the heck does this have to do with a Mosque near GZ?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:33 PM

at Kent State, Ohio National Guard troops opened fire on peaceful Vietnam war protestors.

what the heck does this have to do with a Mosque near GZ?

To make it as black & white as possible: "Opened fire on protestors."

Need I say more?

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:34 PM

Just because I said that having the mosque near GZ makes me "discriminate"? I didn't call them "terrorists" in any of my posts, did I? No I didn't so don't even go there!

(...)

Why would I need to claim that they're "connected" to 9/11.

Here's what you said:
"By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

Furtheron you compared the buiding of the community center with a piss on a grave:

"Ask yourself this question: "Would I let a terrorist piss on the grave of my dead relative?"

So explain to me how you DIDNT make a connection between the islam community building and the 9/11 terrorist. Honestly, explain to me, how you could compare it to pissing on somebodys grave. I am excited to hear about that explanation.

Bottomless things? So my life & the lives of my parents don't mean a thing? That's rather harsh, isn't it?

Do you want to provoke me? I never said that the lifes of you parents and yours where bottomless things. QUOTE ME! Somehow it starts to sound like a mental problem to me that you now even start to twist my words just to play the one who's right.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:34 PM

As far as it can be! But I've said it before, that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

how's 5 blocks? is that far away eniugh for you?

btw, several friends of mine could have been killed on 9-11. my best friend since 2nd grade used to work in the Army wing of the Pentagon, which was the wing totaled by the crash.

an ex-girlfriend had an interview in the towers, but showed up late. she is alive today due to her lazyness.

my dad, mom, aunt, uncle, 3 cousins, and a great-aunt, all lived 2 miles from WTC.

i breathed in the crappy air for months, and helped in the recovery effort.

and yet, i don't care about the mosque being near GZ.

Arus808

18th August 2010, 01:35 PM

There a Mosque that is closer to GZ than the proposed one. Why aren't you crying out against that one?

Also, many businesses in the area are owned by Muslims. Why aren't you crying out against them?

Some of the food cart proprietors that also sell at GZ or near it are owned by Muslims. Why aren't you crying out against them?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:36 PM

To make it as black & white as possible: "Opened fire on protestors."

Need I say more?

yes....you need to say a WHOLE lot more..for many of us to understand what you are really trying to say.

honestly, it appears that like with many other Americans, your slightly bigoted connection between ALL Muslims and the 9-11 terrorists, is clouding and coloring your judgement on this issue.

nchammer326

18th August 2010, 01:37 PM

I get it! OK!

I just don't like people slandering me for no apparent reason & getting into a hissy fit because my opinion doesn't match theirs.

You're entitled to your opinion, and there's no point in me telling you not to get upset or offended because that's an emotional reaction you can't control.

My point is if your reason for being upset is that you think they're building a giant mosque next to ground zero to celebrate their domination over America or whatever, then you have no reason to be upset, because none of that is the case.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:38 PM

Here's what you said:
"By letting a mosque be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero isn't right though, it's like saying: "We've let the terrorists win."

Do you want to provoke me? I never said that the lifes of you parents and yours where bottomless things. QUOTE ME! Somehow it starts to sound like a mental problem to me that you now even start to twist my words just to play the one who's right.

The words "as" & "like" are similies ya know?

Hey, you provoked me first & foremost! Just because you don't like my opinion. Well tough **** Sherlock!

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:39 PM

I get it! OK!

I just don't like people slandering me for no apparent reason & getting into a hissy fit because my opinion doesn't match theirs.

It's not that your opinion doesn't match. You are offending people, that's the point. And for some reason you don't even try to argue WHY a mosque should be as far away from 9/11 as it could be. I already asked you several time: Go for it and argue. It is so easy to complain about other people not understanding you if you don't even try to make a point. It is not enough to show that you are emotionally involved. You also need to explain how a small muslim prayer room of a local NY community is connected to 9/11.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:40 PM

this is the most important question:

Chewy- do you believe that the Federal govt., State govt, or City govt. should try to stop the mosque from being built?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:41 PM

You're entitled to your opinion, and there's no point in me telling you not to get upset or offended because that's an emotional reaction you can't control.

My point is if your reason for being upset is that you think they're building a giant mosque next to ground zero to celebrate their domination over America or whatever, then you have no reason to be upset, because none of that is the case.

Right, emotions are what makes us all human.

I know it's not the case, but how many "Timothy McVeighs" are out there, right now, plan on taking that "mosque" down? Everyone seen what McVeigh did, why can't they see something simular happening with the "mosque"?

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:41 PM

The words "as" & "like" are similies ya know?

Hey, you provoked me first & foremost! Just because you don't like my opinion. Well tough **** Sherlock!

I provoked you?!?!?! Now it's getting interesting. Btw. I don't mind if you have another opinion if you would have some argumentation as fundament. But it seems you have nothing but hurt feelings and that is (unfortunately) not enough in this discussion.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:42 PM

Right, emotions are what makes us all human.

I know it's not the case, but how many "Timothy McVeighs" are out there, right now, plan on taking that "mosque" down? Everyone seen what McVeigh did, why can't they see something simular happening with the "mosque"?

Neo-Nazis want to blow up synagogues. does this mean we should remove all synagogues?

and please answer my last question: Chewy- do you believe that the Federal govt., State govt, or City govt. should try to stop the mosque from being built?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:43 PM

It's not that your opinion doesn't match. You are offending people, that's the point. And for some reason you don't even try to argue WHY a mosque should be as far away from 9/11 as it could be. I already asked you several time: Go for it and argue. It is so easy to complain about other people not understanding you if you don't even try to make a point. It is not enough to show that you are emotionally involved. You also need to explain how a small muslim prayer room of a local NY community is connected to 9/11.

Just because I have an opinion & I'm protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution means that I'm "offending" people? Dude, I have a Constitutional right to say my peace. If you have a problem with that, might I suggest you "cool your jets before you crash"?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:44 PM

Just because I have an opinion & I'm protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution means that I'm "offending" people? Dude, I have a Constitutional right to say my peace.

and Muslims have a Constitutional right to build a mosque wherever they like, as long as it meets non-discriminatory local zoning laws.

Chewy- do you believe that the Federal govt., State govt, or City govt. should try to stop the mosque from being built?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:45 PM

I provoked you?!?!?! Now it's getting interesting. Btw. I don't mind if you have another opinion if you would have some argumentation as fundament. But it seems you have nothing but hurt feelings and that is (unfortunately) not enough in this discussion.

So you would let people destroy the "mosque" because you feel it's nessesary to have it there, when you know full well what people are capable of doing in this day & age?

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:46 PM

and Muslims have a Constitutional right to build a mosque wherever they like, as long as it meets non-discriminatory local zoning laws.

Chewy- do you believe that the Federal govt., State govt, or City govt. should try to stop the mosque from being built?

I believe it's a bad idea! Christ sakes!

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:47 PM

Just because I have an opinion & I'm protected by the 1st Amendment of the Constitution means that I'm "offending" people? Dude, I have a Constitutional right to say my peace. If you have a problem with that, might I suggest you "cool your jets before you crash"?

Dammit Chewy, you were offending people by the things I quoted. Stop f****ing with me. I put my points clearly and if you can't read it's not my problem. I repeated myself saying that I don't have any problem with your opinion but I would like to hear your arguments which you obviously can't present properly.

Lafayette

18th August 2010, 01:50 PM

So you would let people destroy the "mosque" because you feel it's nessesary to have it there, when you know full well what people are capable of doing in this day & age?

No, I don't think it is necessary there. I think that people have the right to have it there like everybody else have. And only because YOU say it will be destroyed it is not gonna happen. Following your argumentation you would have to forbid every building that could be hit by an attack, so basically ALL BUILDINGS. Again, no arguments.

P.S.: You are leaving your basic argument (which everyone can read in this thread) that the "mosque" can't be there because it would be as if one would say that the terrorist won. You are twisting...

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:50 PM

Thunder

18th August 2010, 01:57 PM

I believe it's a bad idea! Christ sakes!

do you believe government should intervene to prevent it?

its a simple question Chewbacca.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 01:57 PM

P.S.: You are leaving your basic argument (which everyone can read in this thread) that the "mosque" can't be there because it would be as if one would say that the terrorist won. You are twisting...

Dude, the mosque is a bad idea. Live with that fact!

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:00 PM

do you believe government should intervene to prevent it?

its a simple question Chewbacca.

It's always been up to the people to decide things in the U.S. So we'll have to wait & see what the people say, won't we? Should they intervene or shouldn't they?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 02:01 PM

It's always been up to the people to decide things in the U.S. So we'll have to wait & see what the people say, won't we? Should they intervene or shouldn't they?

i am asking for YOUR opinion..which you seem to love to give.

what do you think? should the govt. intervene and stop the mosque?

Thunder

18th August 2010, 02:02 PM

Dude, the mosque is a bad idea. Live with that fact!

check yourself. you have no right to label your OPINIONS as being facts.

nchammer326

18th August 2010, 02:03 PM

I presented them. Can you read?: I THINK IT'S A BAD IDEA!

Could you clearly explain why you think that the Islamic community center is a bad idea?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 02:04 PM

...
@Oysten

Muslims wouldnt call every institution with a prayer room a mosque .... You could actually do that and it wouldnt be totally wrong, specially if the institution has an Imam, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to make NO difference between a building with minarets, muezzin and conspicuous or even traditional architectural elements and a common house with a prayer room. Why? Because the WHOLE discussion is focussing on symbolic elements. I do not support that but it is like this (and I think nobody here would reject that). And because it is like this it IS imho important to make a difference between community center and mosque. Well, it is important if your main interest is the solution of the conflict, but there are obviously many people that are not interested in solving the conflict but only in them being right about everything.

Btw. most enterprises do have prayer rooms and nobody would call them a mosque. I know that's a killer argument but it's worth mentioning as many people seem to forget about it (or simply not knowing it).

Best regards!

P.S.: It is true that mosques are often multi-purpose-buildings but again: theres a difference between a building primarily used for prayer and a library using 5% of the whole space and a building in which 5% of the whole space is used for prayer. There is no need merging alltogether...only if you want it to be a more symbolic place than it actually is. As a former student of identity politics i strongly advise to take care of the use of words even if there are "technically" neither right nor wrong.

From what I have read, that building already serves as an "overflow" room for the muslim community that can't be fully suited at the old location in Tribeca. So the impetus for this project originally comes from finding a nice place for prayer, and the idea to build a community center around it, and to consider 9/11, and make it open to all, seem to have come in secondarily. That's why I would consider the complex to be a proper mosque. A library, school, workplace, hospital with a prayer room on the other hand would usually be a library, school, workplace, hospital first, with an added prayer room as afterthought.

So yes, this is hairsplitting.

I don't mind what you call it. A mosque or a cultural center.

However I think you are plain wrong when you claim it is NOT a mosque.

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 02:05 PM

do you believe government should intervene to prevent it?

its a simple question Chewbacca.......

which, it appears, he does not wish to answer.

SezMe

18th August 2010, 02:05 PM

It's just that it's going to be 9 years next month since 9/11 & I personally feel that it's too soon to have a mosque near GZ.

How long, then, before it's ok?

You missed my question.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:05 PM

check yourself. you have no right to label your OPINIONS as being facts.

I've studied history, there's plenty of facts in history to tell me otherwise.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:07 PM

You missed my question.

Sorry!

How long before it's ok? When this whole bloody thing about the mosque dies down & people judge for themselves if it's a good idea or a bad one.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 02:08 PM

ok, I'm done with Chewy on this issue. believe whatever you like.

we in New York will decide.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:10 PM

i am asking for YOUR opinion..which you seem to love to give.

what do you think? should the govt. intervene and stop the mosque?

Shouldn't you stop repeating the same question like a broken record of once.

You know my opinion: It's a bad idea to have a mosque near GZ.

Why would you want to Gov. intervene anyways? You know it has to go through the people first, which is currently happening.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:11 PM

we in New York will decide.

It took you all this time to realize that? Yes, it's your decision cause it's happening in your state.

Spindrift

18th August 2010, 02:11 PM

Shouldn't you stop repeating the same question like a broken record of once.

You know my opinion: It's a bad idea to have a mosque near GZ.

Why would you want to Gov. intervene anyways? You know it has to go through the people first, which is currently happening.

What people does this have to go through?

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 02:24 PM

It took you all this time to realize that? Yes, it's your decision cause it's happening in your state.

i doubt that state voters are able to pass a law that interferes with constitutional rights.
didn't work in california for banning gay marriage, did it?

AJM8125

18th August 2010, 02:27 PM

What a silly thread. If they own the building, they can do with it whatever the law allows them to.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:28 PM

i doubt that state voters are able to pass a law that interferes with constitutional rights.
didn't work in california for banning gay marriage, did it?

You'll never know, with them adding some Amendments/Rights here & there in Congress, whose to say who will interfer?

God & Nature made man & woman to be together. Adam had Eve, not Steve! But that's just my opinion on that subject.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:29 PM

What a silly thread. If they own the building, they can do with it whatever the law allows them to.

Right! But you know there's alot of loonies out there that want to be destructive.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 02:31 PM

Thunder

18th August 2010, 02:32 PM

What a silly thread. If they own the building, they can do with it whatever the law allows them to.

Chewy is saying that since some hateful lunatic bigots might try to firebomb it, the building should not be built.

Next time I see the NYPD guarding a synagogue, I will recommend they instead just demolish the building and move it elsewhere, rather than spending tax-payer dollars to protect a house of worship.

we're in a recession, ya know.

AJM8125

18th August 2010, 02:32 PM

Right! But you know there's alot of loonies out there that want to be destructive.

And what's that got to do with the mosque?

AJM8125

18th August 2010, 02:33 PM

Chewy is saying that since some hateful lunatic bigots might try to firebomb it, the building should not be built.

Next time I see the NYPD guarding a synagogue, I will recommend they instead just demolish the building and move it elsewhere, rather than spending tax-payer dollars to protect a house of worship.

we're in a recession, ya know.

Well it's the risk they're willing to take isn't it?

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 02:35 PM

God & Nature made man & woman to be together. Adam had Eve, not Steve! But that's just my opinion on that subject.

well, at least you are consistent.
with your opinion of intolerance towards muslims and their rights,
it seems fitting that you are intolerant of queers and their rights too.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:37 PM

On an emotional level, that's ok.

But should people not be able to rise above their feelings of hatred and fear and contempt? Should we not work to get rid of such negative emotions, especially if we can determine rationally that they are based on prejudice, misconception and contradictory assertions?

Well there's quite a few WWII vets who remember what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor & after the attack. They never forgave them!

9/11 was a tramatic event which shook us all. And just like those few WWII vets, people have that feeling of not forgiving or forgetting. That's the problem!

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:38 PM

And what's that got to do with the mosque?

Just saying that stupid people tend to do stupid things.

9/11 Chewy Defense

18th August 2010, 02:39 PM

well, at least you are consistent.
with your opinion of intolerance towards muslims and their rights,
it seems fitting that you are intolerant of queers and their rights too.

Thanks!

Well I was brought up to be a hard a$$!

AJM8125

18th August 2010, 02:41 PM

Just saying that stupid people tend to do stupid things.

I've noticed.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 02:48 PM

So in other words: Life doesn't mean a thing & makes no sense?
...

Life means a lot, but it does not mean that the muslims of lower Manhattan are terrorists, it does not mean they or anyone is pissing on any grave, and it does not mean that non-muslim New Yorkers will form a terrorist group.

All that is not implied by any lives lost or any people living nearby getting a scare. It just is not. To to any reasonable person at least.

Life makes sense.
Only you make no sense.

If you tried to think about it all rationally, you'd agree in a second. And wholeheartedly so.

bikerdruid

18th August 2010, 02:50 PM

Thanks!

Well I was brought up to be a hard a$$!

you view your intolerance as a positive thing?:jaw-dropp

SezMe

18th August 2010, 03:07 PM

How long before it's ok? When this whole bloody thing about the mosque dies down & people judge for themselves if it's a good idea or a bad one.
What a curious answer. First, this whole bloody thing will die down in less than a week. Fox will move on to the next outrageous thing our Socialist Prez wants to do and it will fall off the national scene. Some pols will try to milk it during the campaign but nearly everybody just won't give a damn.

Second, you imply that people are not judging this issue for themselves. Huh? Who is doing the judging? Some 911 families don't see a problem with this so what group is so all-powerful that they can be so influential. Hell, they even seem to have gotten to Thunder and you know what a crank he can be. :)

SezMe

18th August 2010, 03:10 PM

9/11 was a tramatic event which shook us all. And just like those few WWII vets, some people have that feeling of not forgiving or forgetting. That's the problem!
My interpolation. Yeah, so what? There's always a few hard asses *cough, cough* around but we don't - or at least shouldn't - cater to them.

triforcharity

18th August 2010, 03:12 PM

Dammit Chewy, you were offending people by the things I quoted. Stop f****ing with me. I put my points clearly and if you can't read it's not my problem. I repeated myself saying that I don't have any problem with your opinion but I would like to hear your arguments which you obviously can't present properly.

Let me say, that this is my emotional opinion, and not my rational opinion.

I say, due to my distruct of Muslims in general, I say build it somewhere farther away from Ground Zero. Like, somewhere in the Middle East. I don't trust Muslims in general. They have burned me 343 times in the name of Allah. It wouldn't matter if it were Muslims, or Englishman, or African Americans, or Christians, or Irishman, or any other nationality or religious group. It could have been the Roman Catholic, I still wouldn't trust them.

Im sorry if that upsets someone, or offends someone. I quite frankly don't give a rats ass.

Now, my RATIONAL, level headed opinion is that they should be allowed to build their center wherever they want to. The US Government, or state of NY, or city of NY, should not do anything to prevent this "Mosque" or cultural center, or whatever you want to call it, from being built. Freedom of Religion is one of the things our founding fathers left and started America for. It is one of the rights that we are guaranteed under the US Constitution.
That right should never be infrindged upon.

I put my emotions aside and go with the rational opinion. Let them build the building.

Thunder

18th August 2010, 03:16 PM

Now, my RATIONAL, level headed opinion is that they should be allowed to build their center wherever they want to. The US Government, or state of NY, or city of NY, should not do anything to prevent this "Mosque" or cultural center, or whatever you want to call it, from being built. Freedom of Religion is one of the things our founding fathers left and started America for. It is one of the rights that we are guaranteed under the US Constitution.
That right should never be infrindged upon.

I put my emotions aside and go with the rational opinion. Let them build the building.

your rational opinion is the one that really counts.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:25 PM

I've studied history, there's plenty of facts in history to tell me otherwise.

Which facts in history inform you that a mosque near GZ would be like terrorists pissing on graves?
Which facts in history inform you that the terrorists would have won?
Which facts in history inform you that New Yorkers will violently attack the mosque?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:28 PM

Sorry!

How long before it's ok? When this whole bloody thing about the mosque dies down & people judge for themselves if it's a good idea or a bad one.

What keeps YOU from judging that NOW and coming up with the rational conclusion: that of course a muslim place is ok in a city that is home to tens of thousands of muslims?

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:33 PM

deleted - foolish reply; see Bell calling me on my **** in post 185

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:35 PM

Well there's quite a few WWII vets who remember what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor & after the attack. They never forgave them!

9/11 was a tramatic event which shook us all. And just like those few WWII vets, people have that feeling of not forgiving or forgetting. That's the problem!

Couldn't agree more. That is the problem indeed. Not a mosque or cultural center.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:42 PM

Let me say, that this is my emotional opinion, and not my rational opinion.

...Muslims in general. They have burned me 343 times...

Good thing you don't let that emotional crap prevail.

Bell

18th August 2010, 03:43 PM

No. "Loonies"* that want to be sceptic, rational, employ reason.
You have clearly contradicted yourself, and used inflammatory, derogatory, insulting simile. Your opinion makes you want certain freedoms to be destroyed. We find that destructive.

* Please don't call me a loony ;)

To be fair to Chewy he did not call you a loony, but the people who might possibly attack the mosque in the future.

BigAl

18th August 2010, 03:45 PM

Let me say, that this is my emotional opinion, and not my rational opinion.

I say, due to my distruct of Muslims in general, I say build it somewhere farther away from Ground Zero. Like, somewhere in the Middle East.

At least 60 victims of 9/11 were Muslim. There are at least 600,000 Muslims in NYC. As a group they are as fine a bunch of people as any group of Americans.

There are currently about 3,500 Muslims serving our country in uniform.Who knows how many are buried in the veterans cemeteries.

I'm embarrassed over the reaction for the families of the Muslim victims, the solders and vets and for the Muslims I know and all the other city residents I don't know.

We don't do guilt by association. The millions of American Muslims and legal immigrants love this country and hate what bin Laden does and stands for.

Rauf, the Imam, has been a known public figure in NYC since 1983. In the war on terror, he's one of the good guys.

Rauf is Sufi Muslim. Sufi is non-political and there has never been a Sufi terrorist that anyone knows of.

Reportedly most Americans that convert to Islam follow Sufism.

Oystein

18th August 2010, 03:45 PM

To be fair to Chewy he did not call you a loony, but the people who might possibly attack the mosque in the future.

Ups

Apologies to Chewy :blush: Didn't read right - past midnight here, I shoud go to bed

JoeTheJuggler

18th August 2010, 04:00 PM

I think if a mosque is built near GZ, there's going to be alot [sic] of people who would want that building gone. I don't think it's wise to build near hallowed ground. But that's my opinion!

Hallowed ground? Really? How far does the hallowed ground extend? (Does it encompass off track betting parlors and strip clubs?)

Do you suppose there are many people who want the existing muslim organizations in that area gone? If so, should we give the opinion of these people any weight at all?

SezMe

18th August 2010, 04:43 PM

Chewy, this guy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/liz-cheneys-keep-america-_n_686697.html) has a lot more skin in the game than you.

Well it may not make me hap-- popular with some people, but I think, probably, the president was right about this," Olson told MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell. "I do believe that people of all religions have a right to build edifices, or structures, or places of religious worship or study where the community allows them to do it under zoning laws and that sort of thing, and that we don't want to turn an act of hate against us by extremists into an act of intolerance for people of religious faith.

Skeptic Guy

18th August 2010, 04:58 PM

Ok. How about this proposal: Ban anyone who owns a gun from developing anything around GZ.

Fair enough?

2nd Amendment wouldn't allow that.

Ok, how about anyone that flies a plane?

Yeah I know, it's just that I'm getting blindsided for having an opinion.

You have a right to an informed opinion.

None of you will ever understand why I dislike having the mosque near GZ.

For me, the events of 9/11 hit home. Flight 93 would've crashed on top of my house that day, killing both my parents & me (I was visiting them) if it had gone down in Johnstown, PA. My father & I were up & we heard this loud engine noise right above the house. A second it was there, the next it was gone.

So don't give me any lip as to why I don't think the mosque near GZ is a "good idea".

Oh, come on. I was on my way into NYC when it happened. If I had made it in, been downtown, or if they had crashed in midtown, I would have been a casualty. What ifs and maybes don't make an informed stance.

triforcharity

18th August 2010, 05:07 PM

Good thing you don't let that emotional crap prevail.

I usually don't. If the terrorists whom supported Bin Jackass, wanted to come over here to pay their respects to the Muslims who perished that day, erect a monument to the 19 Hijackers, I might end up in jail. That much is true.

But, I usually don't let emotions get in the way of rational thinking.

That, and my knowledge of the Muslim faith is limited. I did not even know, (As BigAl pointed out) that there are many different types of Muslims.

Hey, learn something new every day.

leftysergeant

18th August 2010, 05:23 PM

Letting the shrieking morons who get their information mostly from Beck and the Lardblob or maybe Alex Jones win one victory is bad ju-ju. Victory encourages a mob to do even more outrageous crap, so I do not see allowing them to shut down the mosque is any benefit to public safety.

nchammer326

18th August 2010, 05:31 PM

Well there's quite a few WWII vets who remember what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor & after the attack. They never forgave them!

There actually is a Shinto shrine not far from Pearl Harbor was attacked:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ajay-singh-chaudhary/the-mosque-affair-or-far-_b_684141.html

Also, the people who worked in Ground Zero the aftermath of 9/11 don't care about the mosque's location.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/18/2010-08-18_focus_on_zadroga_bill_bam_mosque_site_not_an_is sue_911_heroes_fume.html

One of the thousands who worked at The Pile after the World Trade Center attacks, Feal heads the Fealgood Foundation supporting the responders.

The plight of the Ground Zero heroes, still suffering and dying from illnesses brought on by the toxic cloud over the twin towers' ruins, has taken a backseat to the political posturing over the mosque, Feal said.

The mosque's location "is not an issue for us," he told Obama.

Ninja R

18th August 2010, 05:35 PM

Should Oklahoma City ban all blonde ex-marines from opening businesses near the bombing because of Timothy McVay?

Point of clarity -- McVeigh was not a Marine.

BigAl

18th August 2010, 05:40 PM

We all know that Republican lawyer Ted Olsen lost his wife at the hands of Arab terrorists on 9/11.

Olsen says let them build the GZ mosque and explains why. (70 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHEydwKu6-s

SezMe

18th August 2010, 05:58 PM

BigAl, see #189.

triforcharity

18th August 2010, 06:07 PM

There actually is a Shinto shrine not far from Pearl Harbor was attacked:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ajay-singh-chaudhary/the-mosque-affair-or-far-_b_684141.html

Also, the people who worked in Ground Zero the aftermath of 9/11 don't care about the mosque's location.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/18/2010-08-18_focus_on_zadroga_bill_bam_mosque_site_not_an_is sue_911_heroes_fume.html

NChammer,

That article does not say that the majority of the people who worked GZ don't oppose the mosque. It opposes Obama not focusing his attention on the healthcare bill. The Fealgood Foundation says they don't care.

I care. I was there. Many of my friends whom were there, actually care. But, most of us know that for us to tell them they could not build a mosque there is not right. We may have our personal feelings. I have expressed mine here ITT.

But, most of us are rational people, and understand that it would be trampling their right to freedom of religion. We may not like it personally, but that means precisely....nothing.

fess

18th August 2010, 07:14 PM

Thunder

18th August 2010, 07:16 PM

That being said, let them build their mosque where they may, it is their right. But I still retain the right to not be happy about their choice to do so.

that is your right. does it not allieve any of your fears knowing that it will be a very moderate mosque?

T.A.M.

18th August 2010, 07:22 PM

I’m sorry if I offend anyone by making this statement, but, GZ is hallowed ground in my opinion. GZ to me is where 343 of my brothers and sisters died a horrific death while trying to save others. I still have a hard time watching some of the videos of that day. The picture of the lifeless body of Fr. Judge being carried from the carnage of the WTC still brings a tear to my eyes.

However, being a past member of the military, I lost a lot of my friends that were trying to preserve the freedoms and rights that we all enjoy. Those rights that I and many others fought to preserve extend to all Americans, no matter what their religious beliefs may be. That being said, let them build their mosque where they may, it is their right. But I still retain the right to not be happy about their choice to do so.

I think a fair bit of the mistrust and anger over this mosque (actually I think it is a center, not a mosque) is due to the fact that those who carried out the attacks did so in the name of a particular religion.

If the hijackers were jewish, and did so in the name of Yaweh, would the reaction be the same if a temple were to be built there?

If the hijackers were christian, and did so in the name of jesus, would the reaction be the same if a church was to be erected there?

Hmmm???

TAM:)

Thunder

18th August 2010, 07:24 PM

If the hijackers were jewish, and did so in the name of Yaweh, would the reaction be the same if a temple were to be built there?

If the hijackers were christian, and did so in the name of jesus, would the reaction be the same if a church was to be erected there?

most persecutions of Jews was done in the name of Christ.

and yet, there are still churches in Israel.

triforcharity

18th August 2010, 07:28 PM

I think a fair bit of the mistrust and anger over this mosque (actually I think it is a center, not a mosque) is due to the fact that those who carried out the attacks did so in the name of a particular religion.

If the hijackers were jewish, and did so in the name of Yaweh, would the reaction be the same if a temple were to be built there?

If the hijackers were christian, and did so in the name of jesus, would the reaction be the same if a church was to be erected there?

Hmmm???

TAM:)

Me personally, absolutely, 100%. For me, it's not about race, or a preticular religion, it's about what specific religious affiliation this was done by.

But, I still support their decision.

SezMe

18th August 2010, 08:07 PM

I’m sorry if I offend anyone by making this statement, but, GZ is hallowed ground in my opinion.
fess, how far out does this hallowness radiate?

MG1962

18th August 2010, 08:12 PM

fess, how far out does this hallowness radiate?

All over the continental USA of course. Aren't you paying attention. Anywhere that the mighty constitution bears its teeth, to stop oppression of....ohh wait....umm. Well anyway how them Yankees going this year

Sam.I.Am

18th August 2010, 08:27 PM

fess, how far out does this hallowness radiate?

I believe that currently inside the actual footprints of the towers outer columns are the official "Hallowed" ground. Some people might want it to extend out as far as the first dust clouds or limit it to just where non-airborne (meaning that the wind didn't place them there) chunks of the buildings/airplanes landed.

I'd guess it would depend on whom you asked and when you asked it.

Alareth

18th August 2010, 09:14 PM

I presented them. Can you read?: I THINK IT'S A BAD IDEA!

So tell me, how about these mosques? Are they too close and should be removed?

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&q=mosques+in+new+york+city&fb=1&gl=us&hq=mosques&hnear=New+York&ei=A69sTI7ZGNzlnQeXgJnlBw&ved=0CEoQtgMwBg&z=12

BigAl

18th August 2010, 11:57 PM

I’m sorry if I offend anyone by making this statement, but, GZ is hallowed ground in my opinion. GZ to me is where 343 of my brothers and sisters died a horrific death while trying to save others. I still have a hard time watching some of the videos of that day. The picture of the lifeless body of Fr. Judge being carried from the carnage of the WTC still brings a tear to my eyes.

However, being a past member of the military, I lost a lot of my friends that were trying to preserve the freedoms and rights that we all enjoy. Those rights that I and many others fought to preserve extend to all Americans, no matter what their religious beliefs may be. That being said, let them build their mosque where they may, it is their right. But I still retain the right to not be happy about their choice to do so.

I'm familiar with that part of town and I suspect that if the mosque gets built you won't be able to find it, starting from GZ, without a map or lots of searching on foot.

I don't know what 13 floors Park Place looks like and how tall nearby buildings are.

Lafayette

19th August 2010, 12:53 AM

I don't mind what you call it. A mosque or a cultural center.

However I think you are plain wrong when you claim it is NOT a mosque.

Here´s what I wrote:

"Muslims wouldnt call every institution with a prayer room a mosque, likewise you wouldnt call every jewish prayer room a synagogue. (...) You could actually do that and it wouldnt be totally wrong, specially if the institution has an Imam, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to make NO difference between a building with minarets, muezzin and conspicuous or even traditional architectural elements and a common house with a prayer room. Why? Because the WHOLE discussion is focussing on symbolic elements. I do not support that but it is like this (and I think nobody here would reject that). And because it is like this it IS imho important to make a difference between community center and mosque. Well, it is important if your main interest is the solution of the conflict, but there are obviously many people that are not interested in solving the conflict but only in them being right about everything."

Lafayette

19th August 2010, 01:37 AM

I presented them. Can you read?: I THINK IT'S A BAD IDEA!

Chewy....I don´t know from which world you come from but thinking it is a bad idea is not an argument, it is an opinion. An argument is saying WHY you think it is an bad idea.

This is what you did: First you compared building a community center with some piss on the parents grave and said that a "mosque" blocks away from Ground Zero would mean to let the terrorist win (!?!). You were talking about you being emotionally involved because flight 93 nearly crashed your house and said that therefore nobody would understand why you wouldn´t like to have a mosque close to Ground Zero (which again is no argument against a community center, but yes, you said it).
Only in the end (when you didn´t find it necessary to comment the offensive stuff you said before) you came up with some strange "argument" that the muslim community center shouldn´t be built because people could destroy it (already commented on that). You even accused me I "would let people destroy the "mosque" because [I] feel it's nessesary to have it there" (which is also offensive). And then you start being pissed and claimed people would question your constitutional right to express your opinion, which is some sort of Kindergarten argument (because anybody did so). Like I said, you obviously didn´t understand what an discussion is about. You can express your opinion but you can´t have a discussion with it - so if you want to take part in the discussion you better present some arguments.

The way you are talking is unfortunately nothing uncommon, I actually met many US citizen that "argued" this way and didn´t understand how offensive it is (however I met many others that did). And as I said: I can understand it concerning the symbolic power of 9/11, the personal experience and trauma. But I would never approve it therefore from an analytic point of view. I studied ethnic problems long enough to know that your way of treating the case is causing more problems (for the US!) and radicalizing the whole situation.

AJM8125

19th August 2010, 02:07 AM

Chewy....I don´t know from which world you come from

Location: Planet Kashyyyk, currently on Planet Endor with the Ewoks fighting the Galactic Truther Empire, of course.

And before you write another logical, well thought out and rational reply, you should have a look at this -

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=162555

That's the type of argument you're up against, in a nutshell.

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 05:05 AM

Look, I'll be honest.

I'm not too keen on the whole idea, but as someone else on here said, that's mainly my emotional reaction. My rational side reminds me that I took an oath to uphold the Constitution and fight for the ideals it espouses, if need be offering up my life for said ideals, so my emotional reaction upon reflection seems rather petty. Therefore, I go with my rational side.

Quite frankly I am of the opinion that most of the people who oppose the idea of the mosque/cultural center being so close to Ground Zero are letting their emotional reactions rule rather than letting themselves calm down and think about it logically. I would imagine that the poll showing 68% of Americans being against the mosque/cultural center deliberately phrased the questions asked so as to incite an emotional response. But I would also hope that the majority of people, after giving it some thought, would come to realize that their initial, emotional reaction, while allowed, is in fact petty and not in keeping with the tenets this nation was founded on. If they were aware of all the facts, among them that there are other mosques close to Ground Zero, that there are strip clubs and gay bars close to Ground Zero, and that there are other religious buildings from various religions near Ground Zero, they might come to realize that their visceral reaction to the idea seems rather hypocritical. Ground Zero is not hallowed ground. I'm probably going to get lambasted for saying that, but if you think about it, it is true. Yes, nearly three thousand people died there, but people die everywhere, often from circumstances as horrific as what happened on 9/11. By that logic, the entirety of the world should be considered hallowed ground.

Perhaps it comes from my own religious background, but I cannot bring myself to blame an entire religion for the actions of a few members. The vast majority of the practitioners of Islam are by and large peaceful people who merely wish to live their lives and practice their faith without harrassment or fear. From what I can tell, that's the way most people who follow some sort of faith, or don't even follow any faith at all, feel as well. I cannot and WILL not understand why people can assign blame to an entire religion without bothering to make the effort to differentiate why some members of a faith feel the way they do. A tiny percentage of Muslims were responsible for 9/11. Think about it; out of a religion that boasts over 1 billion people (IIRC), there were, at best twenty to twenty-five people who planned and executed the plan for 9/11. Do I blame those people? Hell. Yes. Do I blame every other person who practices Islam? Hell. No. I don't even blame the people who celebrated in various Middle Eastern countries upon hearing of the tragedy, because they did not participate. I do hold them in some contempt for being so uncaring about their fellow man, but I do not blame them, especially when I consider the fact that by and large America is considered to be extremely arrogant by the rest of the world, and I can see the arrogance for myself simply by living here. We are a proud people, but in my opinion we have pretty much forgotten our humble beginnings. Our forefathers came to this country to escape religious persecution; our Constitution is founded upon that very idea, among others. I cannot and WILL not bring myself to spit upon the principles we fought the Revolutionary War to uphold.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but like the saying goes, "opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one." My opinion is that there is no logical excuse for the emotional reaction from the majority of Americans upon hearing about this particular issue, and it is also my opinion that, upon reflection, the majority of Americans will come to realize this and will cease their opposition to the idea. There will likely be protests; I don't deny that. Some people might even be hurt. But ultimately the furor over this will die down, and New York will continue on much as before, reflecting the hodgepodge of nations and religions it has always reflected. Building this mosque/cultural center, whichever you want to call it, will not mean that we are letting the terrorists win. What it will mean is that we are upholding the principles laid out in the Constitution correctly. So if you're vigorously protesting the idea, I suggest you pause and take a moment to reflect on just WHY you are protesting the idea. If there is no logical reason for your opposition, then perhaps the best thing is to recognize that your emotional response is not the correct response. My $0.02 American; take it or leave it.

Thunder

19th August 2010, 05:52 AM

Chewy has already stated that his post: "Its a bad idea", is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact.

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 06:10 AM

Well then, he's mistaken.

T.A.M.

19th August 2010, 06:24 AM

Chewy has already stated that his post: "Its a bad idea", is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact.

By definition, his comment on it being a bad idea is an opinion, not fact. Unless i am missing something.

TAM:)

excaza

19th August 2010, 06:42 AM

I don't think this can be posted enough :p

http://i.imgur.com/TacgJ.jpg

T.A.M.

19th August 2010, 07:20 AM

It is a deep mental wound that will take time to get over....in the meantime, the rational will come into conflict with the emotional.

TAM:)

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 08:54 AM

You guys/gals still don't get it do you?

It's a bad idea to place a mosque anywhere near GZ because it's going to be a target of some irrational person. Do you all remember what happened to that Holocaust Memorial in Washington, D.C. or did you all forget?

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bell
To be fair to Chewy he did not call you a loony, but the people who might possibly attack the mosque in the future.

Ups

Apologies to Chewy :blush: Didn't read right - past midnight here, I shoud go to bed

Thanks for seeing it through my eyes Bell & Oystein. Your apologies are accepted, the others who don't think outside the box about a future attack on the mosque, because of its location, will have to deal with demons if & when attacks do occur after it's built.

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 09:01 AM

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:02 AM

So tell me, how about these mosques? Are they too close and should be removed?

They are too close & should be moved else where. Too much blood has been spilled in NY almost 9 yrs ago. An attack will occur in the future on the mosque, I **** you not!

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:04 AM

That is your assumption, and this should in no way override the Constitution.

You still don't get it! They can build it there, but I'm telling you, some irrational person will attack the mosque in the future.

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 09:13 AM

You still don't get it! They can build it there, but I'm telling you, some irrational person will attack the mosque in the future.

No, you do not get it. Why the Alex Jones act? What proof do you have that someone will do anything? Your fear that someone will do something to the community center does not trump the fact that the Constitution allows them to use the building as they choose.

Thunder

19th August 2010, 09:16 AM

Synagogues get attacked in Europe all the time. Doesn't mean we should remove them or prevent Jews from building new ones.

Chewy is truly blaiming the victim. Bigots consider anything dealing with the people they hate, to be a provocation.

Thunder

19th August 2010, 09:17 AM

It's a bad idea to place a mosque anywhere near GZ because it's going to be a target of some irrational person. Do you all remember what happened to that Holocaust Memorial in Washington, D.C. or did you all forget?

are you suggesting the Holocaust Museum should not have been built, cause it migth draw the ire of Neo-Nazis?

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:18 AM

No, you do not get it. Why the Alex Jones act? What proof do you have that someone will do anything? Your fear that someone will do something to the community center does not trump the fact that the Constitution allows them to use the building as they choose.

Obviously you've never read history. Alex Jones act? Ummm, my estimates is that Alex Jones never got involved in historical events. Proof's in the history books, you might want to read it.

Fine, they build the mosque where they want, be it near GZ. Then when some irrational person attacks the mosque & kills innocent people, whether they be muslim or American. Then you'd say that I was right about it!

Until then I don't give a rats ass what anyone thinks, I just say it's a bad idea to begin with.

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 09:19 AM

Chewy, if we let what someone MIGHT do prevent us from doing the things we SHOULD do, we'd never get anything done.

Someone MIGHT molest any children I have in the future; that doesn't mean I shouldn't attempt to have them.

Someone MIGHT claim the police are too brutal in their pursuit of a criminal; that doesn't mean the police should cease upholding the law.

We have absolutely NO guarantees that what you are claiming will happen will, but just because there's a possibility of it happening doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing.

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:20 AM

are you suggesting the Holocaust Museum should not have been built, cause it migth draw the ire of Neo-Nazis?

I'm suggesting that an attack on the mosque will occur. Or don't those words compute?

Chewy is truly blaiming the victim. Bigots consider anything dealing with the people they hate, to be a provocation.

You got it wrong, I'm blaming society, cause there's some sick people in the world that would do things, especially to a mosque. Being a "bigot" isn't the issue, it's the issue of protecting the mosque & the people that visit it.

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:22 AM

We have absolutely NO guarantees that what you are claiming will happen will, but just because there's a possibility of it happening doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing.

I know what you're gonna say that they have a right to build there, but I'm just nervous that more blood will be spilled in NYC. We don't need that!

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 09:29 AM

Obviously you've never read history. Alex Jones act? Ummm, my estimates is that Alex Jones never got involved in historical events. Proof's in the history books, you might want to read it.

As a matter of fact, I have read history. Your "proofs" have absolutely zero to do with the community center being built. But, you are doing a commendable Alex Jones impersonation by trying to rile people up by predicting a future event. So, if something happens in a mosque in the near future, are you going to proclaim some sort of internet victory?

Fine, they build the mosque where they want, be it near GZ. Then when some irrational person attacks the mosque & kills innocent people, whether they be muslim or American. Then you'd say that I was right about it!

If it were to happen, I would say you were right. What is your timeframe? If nothing happens in a year, will you come back here and apologize to all NYers and Muslims?

Until then I don't give a rats ass what anyone thinks, I just say it's a bad idea to begin with.

You have said it is a bad idea because you are xenophobic. Keep talking, so you can sway more people to the rational side - you do as fine a job as any CTist.

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 09:30 AM

Redtail

19th August 2010, 09:32 AM

I'm suggesting that an attack on the mosque will occur. Or don't those words compute?

You got it wrong, I'm blaming society, cause there's some sick people in the world that would do things, especially to a mosque. Being a "bigot" isn't the issue, it's the issue of protecting the mosque & the people that visit it.

So my wife and I shouldn't have kids because that is the best way to ensure they aren't hurt by some crazy white supremacy guy. Hmmm... actually, using that logic it would be best if I divorce her....

Thunder

19th August 2010, 09:33 AM

Blood is spilled every day, Chewy. IN New York, no less. I'd say a decent percentage of the homicides in New York are either racially or religiously motivated.

actually, most homocides in NYC are not hate crimes.

remember, we have like 600 a year.

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 09:34 AM

I didn't say they were hate crimes; I said a percentage had racial or religious motivations. That's not to say those were the only motivations.

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 09:34 AM

I know what you're gonna say that they have a right to build there, but I'm just nervous that more blood will be spilled in NYC. We don't need that!

I predict that at least ten more people will be murdered by handguns in NYC by the end of this year. We should ban handguns because we do not need more blood spilled in NYC!

You should have no problem with this position.

Thunder

19th August 2010, 09:35 AM

You got it wrong, I'm blaming society, cause there's some sick people in the world that would do things, especially to a mosque. Being a "bigot" isn't the issue, it's the issue of protecting the mosque & the people that visit it.

it appears that you believe the best way to protect the mosque, is to not build it in the first place.

how far away from GZ do you think is a "minimum safe distance" for any new mosques?

5 blocks?

10 blocks?

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:36 AM

As a matter of fact, I have read history. Your "proofs" have absolutely zero to do with the community center being built. But, you are doing a commendable Alex Jones impersonation by trying to rile people up by predicting a future event. So, if something happens in a mosque in the near future, are you going to proclaim some sort of internet victory?

If it were to happen, I would say you were right. What is your timeframe? If nothing happens in a year, will you come back here and apologize to all NYers and Muslims?

You have said it is a bad idea because you are xenophobic. Keep talking, so you can sway more people to the rational side - you do as fine a job as any CTist.

Oh really? Then mind if I ask you how many mosque within the U.S. have been attacked since 9/11??

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 09:43 AM

Not many, according to this website (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter1.htm).

It could have been a lot worse:
The murders, attempted murders, many ineffectual firebombings and shootings at mosques, and countless less serious instances of harassment are certainly serious. However, the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim backlash could have been much worse. The pleas by religious, government and media leaders that Americans to pull together and to avoid stereotyping may well have prevented a much greater display of blind rage.

Journalist Tim Cavanaugh commented: "The pleas for compassion, the chilling reminders that our natures contain darker angels, and the overriding editorial caution may be somewhat overstated, but if repetition serves the purpose of keeping peace in the streets, it all may be worth it. Sometimes the only way to fight a kneejerk reaction is with a kneejerk precaution."

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:45 AM

Blood is spilled every day, Chewy. IN New York, no less. I'd say a decent percentage of the homicides in New York are either racially or religiously motivated.

Look, I understand that you don't want more blood spilled; neither do I. But until we grow as a species, racial or religiously motivated crimes are going to keep happening. The trick is not to give in to that pressure and continue to uphold the principles this nation was founded on by letting the right thing happen. I'm more than certain that these Muslims who will be building the center know of the risks; they can't fail to know of them, what with the media coverage. If they know the risks, and still choose to build there, the only thing that you or I can do is correct the misguided perspectives of those who might wish them harm for merely doing what the Constitution says they are allowed to do. You want to fix things? Start by telling the people raising a fuss that they have no right to their bigoted attitudes and explain why. The more people you educate, the less ignorant fools there will be who might mean this group harm.

I hilited a sentence from your post Sabrina, maybe those who are arguing with me can get the picture.

I've been trying to tell these people in here that it's a bad idea to have the mosque near GZ, not only 1 but possibly 2 of them. They can't seem to grasp the situation this is causing. I think some of them are blindsided to the fact that attacks occur everyday, that's true. But how many of them know that some of us Americans have attacked mosques within the U.S.? Don't they dread the fact that a mosque near GZ will always be a target of some vigilanty or a homegrown terrorist, like Timothy McVeigh? I'm trying my best to educate these people about an attack on the mosque. But it seems to fall on blind eyes!

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 09:47 AM

So my wife and I shouldn't have kids because that is the best way to ensure they aren't hurt by some crazy white supremacy guy. Hmmm... actually, using that logic it would be best if I divorce her....

No silly! :p Have kids & all, but be mindful of what's out there! ;)

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 09:49 AM

Chewy, you're not getting it.

Yes, people will be stupid and end up trying stupid things; that's in the nature of being human. That DOES NOT MEAN we should NOT do the right thing! IF someone were to attack the mosque/cultural center, then they would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for engaging in a blatant hate crime, and life would go on; the cultural center would likely still be there. Just because there COULD be an attack on the mosque/cultural center does NOT mean that it should not be built! There COULD be an attack on a Catholic church, or a Jewish synagogue, or any other religious building; that doesn't stop people from building them, does it? Your logic is painfully flawed here!

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 09:52 AM

I predict that at least ten more people will be murdered by handguns in NYC by the end of this year. We should ban handguns because we do not need more blood spilled in NYC!

You should have no problem with this position.

Chewy, will you respond?

Also I have no clue how many mosques have been attacked since 9/11. Do you? Then you need to explain the relevance.

Do you know how many churches have been attacked by arsonists since 9/11?

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 10:04 AM

Whatever! I just know something bad is going to come out of this mosque idea & it ain't gonna be pretty in the end.

When it's attacked, then those who opposed me will have to apologize. I'm just predicting what will come!

excaza

19th August 2010, 10:07 AM

Do I really need to post the picture again?

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 10:09 AM

Whatever! I just know something bad is going to come out of this mosque idea & it ain't gonna be pretty in the end.

Ok Alex.

When it's attacked, then those who opposed me will have to apologize. I'm just predicting what will come!

Once again, what's your timeframe? One year? 2 years? I will apologize, based on a reasonable timeframe, if you consent to do the same when nothing happens. Also, you need to better define "something bad." There are plenty of things that can happen there that are not inn anyway related to religion.

Finally, are you going to back banning handguns in NYC since something bad is going to happen with them this year. I will even define something bad as multiple murders with multiple handguns.

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 10:13 AM

Ok Alex.

Once again, what's your timeframe? One year? 2 years? I will apologize, based on a reasonable timeframe, if you consent to do the same when nothing happens. Also, you need to better define "something bad." There are plenty of things that can happen there that are not inn anyway related to religion.

Finally, are you going to back banning handguns in NYC since something bad is going to happen with them this year. I will even define something bad as multiple murders with multiple handguns.

You equate me to Alex Jones, does that equate you to a Truther? Then stop with the name calling!

That's the thing with time, it's endless, so who knows when it'll happen.

2nd Amendment says we have a right to bear arms.

Sorry to piss people off, but if my opinion offends anyone, it's my right to opinion.

excaza

19th August 2010, 10:14 AM

It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to claim your opinion is fact.

9/11 Chewy Defense

19th August 2010, 10:16 AM

It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to claim your opinion is fact.

The fact is mosques' in America have been attacked since 9/11. Why should the GZ mosque be any different?

Why can't you deal with the fact that the GZ mosque will be attacked? You know it's gonna come eventually!

Sabrina

19th August 2010, 10:21 AM

The fact is, synagogues and churches have probably been attacked in the US since 9/11.

What's your point?

Disbelief

19th August 2010, 10:21 AM

You equate me to Alex Jones, does that equate you to a Truther? Then stop with the name calling!

No, since I do not believe the nonsense you are spouting. Quit acting like him, and I will quit referring to you as him.

That's the thing with time, it's endless, so who knows when it'll happen.

So, there is no time limit, so you can never be proven wrong. Just like a CTist spouting that sometime in the future there will be an attack.

2nd Amendment says we have a right to bear arms.

So, you are ok with this Constitutionally protected right but not with the constitutionally protected right of freed of religion? Keep proving your xenophobia.

Sorry to piss people off, but if my opinion offends anyone, it's my right to opinion.

Then quit trying to prove that your opinion is based upon some kind of concern for the Muslims, as everyone can see through your charade. You should have stated your opinion and moved on.