Business Astrology

[Karen Boesen]

www.randi.org www.businessastrologers.com
randi@randi.org www.erhvervsastrologi.dk - choice of English language
info@businessastrologers.com


OPEN LETTER ABOUT JAMES RANDI!

Unfortunately, once again, I am forced to correct the information passed on by James Randi in his weekly letter of 6 February 2004 concerning me and my work.

The last time it happened was 5 September when James Randi casually claimed that I worked together with criminals, information which he had also received from Mogens Winther (a Danish sceptic). I immediately informed James Randi that he was repeating unverified slander which had no relation to reality and when, on that occasion I contacted my lawyer, James Randi came with a denial the following week (12 September).

Now, yet again, there is a credibility problem. James Randi writes in his weekly letter that in connection with my talk at the International Business Club I presented forecasts. This is not true. At no time did I present a forecast. The journalist who covered my talk in a double article the following Sunday quite correctly reported my statement that the company Lego had an excellent horoscope. Founded i 1932. So far so good. Now, to my utter amazement, I read that I have done a 180 degree turn and changed my statement. Why on earth should I do that? Completely untrue. The founding horoscope, which is now more than 70 years old, has absolutely nothing to do with Lego's present situation. I have never made forecasts for Lego, as claimed by James Randi, for the simple reason that Lego does not possess an exact founding horoscope. This fact appears in my book, in which Lego is a case story, and in complete agreement with Lego whom I naturally contacted before starting to publish the more than 70 year old horoscope. So all this, for your information, has happened with their full acceptance.

Furthermore, I have to state that James Randi's claim, that I apparently said I had no doubt that dark clouds were gathering over Lego, is pure fabrication. As already mentioned, I have never made a forecast for Lego and have never had the least idea how Lego's future would develop. Randi's quote, which has no relation to Lego's "super horoscope", originates from a chatroom for astrologers --- a chatroom from which Mogens Winther and Claus Larsen have been expelled because of their harrassment towards astrologers and other participants. Expelled members as well as the general public can naturally follow the chatroom without however being able to actively participate in the debate.

We discussed here how one should interpret the aspects which PERHAPS would appear in Lego's horoscope for this year --- ON CONDITION that Lego's horoscope data was valid. Noone, and certainly not myself (knowing from experience how all my remarks are misrepresented, manipulated, lied about etc. by, in particular, Mogens Winther and Claus Larsen) would dream of making such a bombastic statement.

In other words noone has made predictions, certainly not in connection with share prices. I personally have never given one single piece of advice on financial conditions --- I do not work with these markets as I have absolutely no knowledge about them.

It is unfortunate that James Randi passes on these stories which are so far from the truth. It means that one will have this in mind when reading his newsletters in future and consequently will have reservations abouvt the credibility of his articles.

There is altogether an unfortunate development among certain elements of the sceptic movement --- not least the 3 persons mentioned above contribute to this negative tendency.

Mogens Winther is notorious for his manipulation of facts when he goes after people with beliefs other than his own. Even Winther's own scientific colleagues criticise him and his methods in the press.

Claus Larsen, who is James Randi's assistant at congresses etc., has become famous/infamous in Denmark as he has now progressed to using physical violence against so-called "alternative" thinkers.
An extract from a Danish newspaper follows:

"FIGHT .....
The last 10 participants then experienced that Kurt Bertelsen quick as a flash snatched the little taperecorder from a critical member of the audience and gave it to Andre´ H. Corell. The critical participant then flew up and overpowered Andre´ H. Corell, aided and abetted by yet another person who held him down. After a short battle the two critical participants left with the taperecorder.. The remaining participants gaped in disbelief.......... "
korsholm@kristeligt-dagblad.dk

The two "critical" participants were respectively Dan Simonsen (Randi's translator) and Claus Larsen, both members of the Danish Sceptic Organisation. The following quotes illustrate perfectly the debating level of these two gentlemen:

Dan Simonsen to chief consultant, legal psychiatrist Toni Haugen: "You are an unintelligent, pretentious, amateur interpreter".

Claus Flodin Larsen to the writer: "You are just a simple, pathetic, spiteful scandalmonger."

Other astrologers have been accused of being alcolholics etc. etc.

By far the majority of sceptics are of course decent people, however, the above-mentioned behaviour of certain individuals does contribute to the fact that many are beginning to consider the worldwide sceptic movement on a par with Hells Angels.

Claus Larsen has also threatened me personally but I have chosen for the moment just to give the existing material as well as Claus Larsen's threats to my lawyer without taking further action .... unless, of course, Claus Larsen carries out his threats and tries to prevent me from doing my legitimate work.

But we can easily manage Mogens Winther and Claus Larsen here in Denmark. James Randi is sitting safe and sound in USA.

A final point! In my private correspondence with James Randi, when he last misrepresented the truth and insulted my person, he was also able suddenly to produce references from ISBA's members area which is a private area requiring password and user ID which James Randi does not have. Or does he?? If he does not then the man must have psychic abilities which enable him unimpeded to enter closed areas. Surely this can be checked? After all USD 1.2 mill. are at stake.

Yours sincerely

Karen Boesen

Cc to James Randi, Mogens Winther, websites, organisations for astrologers, organisations for sceptics worldwide, chatrooms, the press etc.

[Brown]

From the commentary of 6 February:Reader Mogens Winther, in Denmark, tells us of the latest adventures of a remarkable Dane who persists in being very wrong, but I have to admit that she does so with great pride and a persistance [sic] that invokes both admiration and incredulity...Thereafter follows a lengthy quotation. As best I can tell, the complaints pertain principally to that quotation. The author of the quote is not Mr. Randi, but is properly identified. Accordingly, one may question whether the matters in question are things "James Randi writes in his weekly letter" or whether they are things "claimed by James Randi."

It has been said that certain individuals "have been expelled [from a chatroom] because of their harrassment [sic] towards astrologers and other participants." The poster should be relieved to know that, in spite of the uncomplimentary remarks appearing in her post, such expulsions do not take place here. Historically, individuals have been excluded from this forum for exceptionally bad manners, but not because they hold opinions contrary to those who manage the forum.

Edited to add "sic" and to correct typo.

[Karen Boesen]

Thank you for your comment Mr. Brown.
It was very interesting for me to read.

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[CFLarsen]

Well, hello, Karen...nice to see you here. Despite your threats of physical violence to anyone who dares question you. Despite your many claims of lawsuits, aimed to quell any dissent.

Be prepared to face the world of skepticism. You will probably not like it. You see, here, we like things to get out in the open. Something you really, really hate. Something that you have worked very hard to avoid.

Now, please, present your evidence of your claims.

[Karen Boesen]

Dear Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen,

I am afraid that the evidence are written in Danish.

But as far as I have understood, Mr. Randi has an excellent translater Mr. Jensen. Maybe he can help us.

I am sure that noone in this forum will trust me, if I ( capital I ) translate all your stuff. Would not be very flattering for you. Would it?

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Brown]

Claus, my friend, it is clear that the two of you know each other. I am, however, unfamiliar with the dispute. So permit me to ask a few questions if I may.

First, the commentary of 6 February includes a quote that begins ". . . the progressive Sun in square to Saturn, which is an extremely strong and stressfull aspect. . ." and that is apparently attributed to Ms. Boesen. Is it Ms. Boesen's contention that this comment should be attributed to someone else?

Second, I must say that I am unfamiliar with various aspects of astrology. I may therefore be unfamiliar with some of the terminology. In the USA, "horoscopes" are used to make "forecasts" about the future. Thus "horoscope" and "forecast" are terms used interchangably by many astrologers in the USA. In connection with Lego (if I understand correctly) you said that the company had an "excellent horoscope" but you did not make "forecasts." To me, saying that a company has an "excellent horoscope" sounds like there is a prediction of good things to come. If I understand correctly, however, saying that a company has an "excellent horoscope" is not necessarily making a "forecast" of any kind.

I further understand that you maintain that no forecasts could be made, because "Lego does not possess an exact founding horoscope." How then can the horoscope be called "excellent?" In what respects was it "excellent?"

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dear Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen,

I am afraid that the evidence are written in Danish.

But as far as I have understood, Mr. Randi has an excellent translater Mr. Jensen. Maybe he can help us.

I don't know who this "Mr. Jensen" is. But I am sure that your English is good enough for this forum. Until now, you have had no problems with your English.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I am sure that noone in this forum will trust me, if I ( capital I ) translate all your stuff. Would not be very flattering for you. Would it?

"Trust" is irrelevant here. Only evidence counts. Now, please present yours.

What's the matter, Karen? Here is your chance: Present your evidence. Let's see how badly you have been treated.

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Brown!

I appriciate you question. I don`t think that Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen is the right person to answer you. He is not an astrologer, and he has proved many times, that he does not know about astrology at all.

A company has 2 charts.

A founding chart! The " excellent " one for Lego. You can work out such a chart even though you don`t have the excate time of birth on the day the company has started. The " big " planets don`t move that fast. That was the chart, which I was talking about to the journalist. I did not mention it at all in my lecture.

IF you forecast you need an excate time of founding. 4 minutes will change the forecast with about one year, and because of that it would be completely rediculous to work out a chart, and of course noone has done that.

As mentioned in the text, which Mr. Randi appartently misunderstood, or was it Mr. Winther?, we don`t have any idea, what is the founding time of Lego, BECAUSE of that, we cannot forecast!

It is late now in Copenhagen, and I am closing down. If you have further questions I shall be happy to answer them tomorrow.

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Karen Boesen]

To Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen!

We know you all to well in Denmark. I will not post, what we use to call you. I am afraid it is not polite enough for this Forum.

But I will not respond to all you usual scribblings in future.

Yours sincerely,

Karen Boesen

PS. By the way, I have no idea what you are talking about, when you mention " lawsuit " . Are you being delirious?

[Randi]

First, I am not about to become involved here in long discussions about Ms. Boesen's accusations and wild assertions. That's Forum business. However, I think that readers should know that Ms. Boesen posted, earlier today, this claim, addressed to me:

"I give up, I have never met a person, who was able to lie as much as you are. IF you were a decent man, you would have printed my "open letter". But you are too much of a coward to do that. I have tried to get access to your chatroom. No luck! Are you afraid of the truth?"

Ms. Boesen, you were denied access here for only a few hours, because you did not complete the required details. As soon as you fulfilled that necessary task, you were on the Forum within 30 minutes.

The latest of your "open letters" is now published. Stand back.

James Randi.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
A company has 2 charts.

A founding chart! The " excellent " one for Lego. You can work out such a chart even though you don`t have the excate time of birth on the day the company has started. The " big " planets don`t move that fast. That was the chart, which I was talking about to the journalist. I did not mention it at all in my lecture.Thank you for your reply. If one of the charts is a "founding chart," what is the other? Is it a "forecasting chart?" Does it go by another name?

Also, what is the purpose of a "founding chart?" If it is imprecise and cannot be used to make forecasts, it must have some other purpose, does it not? What would a "founding chart" tell us about a company? In particular, what information would it provide that we could not already know or learn from other sources?

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Randi,

I am sorry to say that you have misunderstood my letter. I tried to get access to this board about a week ago. No luck.
I wrote your webmaster and asked him to help me. He never answered me.

Tonight when I wrote yóu the letter above, I also went to the Danish Forum for astrologers, where Mogens Winther and Claus Larsen usually pick up information. After app. ½ - 1 hour I tried to register again, and what happened .... I was in. ;)

Good night!

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I appriciate you question. I don`t think that Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen is the right person to answer you. He is not an astrologer, and he has proved many times, that he does not know about astrology at all.

Actually, I am just as much an astrologer as you are, Karen. Feel free to flaunt your academically approved credentials to prove otherwise.

What, can't do it? Why is that?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
A company has 2 charts.

No, a company has the chart of choice: If it fits, it fits. If it does not fit, the chart can be changed until it fits.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
A founding chart! The " excellent " one for Lego. You can work out such a chart even though you don`t have the excate time of birth on the day the company has started. The " big " planets don`t move that fast. That was the chart, which I was talking about to the journalist. I did not mention it at all in my lecture.

Bull. You had no such reservations before.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
IF you forecast you need an excate time of founding. 4 minutes will change the forecast with about one year, and because of that it would be completely rediculous to work out a chart, and of course noone has done that.

But, you had no such reservations before your LEGO prognosis showed you wrong. And, as you and I know, it doesn't matter if it is 4 minutes, or whatever you like: Any "birthdate" can be changed, depending on what post-hoc data is available.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
As mentioned in the text, which Mr. Randi appartently misunderstood, or was it Mr. Winther?, we don`t have any idea, what is the founding time of Lego, BECAUSE of that, we cannot forecast!

Then, how can you possibly write 14 pages worth of prognosis in your book about LEGO?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
It is late now in Copenhagen, and I am closing down. If you have further questions I shall be happy to answer them tomorrow.

Oh, no worries. Skeptics are used to waiting for answers.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
To Mr. Claus Flodin Larsen!

We know you all to well in Denmark. I will not post, what we use to call you. I am afraid it is not polite enough for this Forum.

But I will not respond to all you usual scribblings in future.

Of course you won't. I am sure you know me "all to well". And I have every post you made saved. That is probably the reason why you do not dare respond to me.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
PS. By the way, I have no idea what you are talking about, when you mention " lawsuit " . Are you being delirious?

Not at all. You have threatened with legal actions several times. Nothing has ever emerged.

[Brown]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
No, a company has the chart of choice: If it fits, it fits. If it does not fit, the chart can be changed until it fits.Claus, your observations may have some validity, or they may not. I would like to hear Ms. Boesen's explanation. I will be signing off soon myself and I will be looking forward to seeing her kind responses to my queries.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Brown
Claus, your observations may have some validity, or they may not. I would like to hear Ms. Boesen's explanation. I will be signing off soon myself and I will be looking forward to seeing her kind responses to my queries.

You will simply love them.....

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Brown!

It is in the middle of the night in Denmark now, but Mr. Randìs attacks have made me so angry, that I am not able to sleep, so I shall answer you in the following.

But first of all, I want to comment on Mr. Jensen, mentioned by the person above in regard to Mr. Randis translator.
Mr. Jensen has told me that I am not able to write Danish, even though I have passes more than 15 years in school, high school, university ( 5 years - psychology and political science ).
Of course I accept the judgement of Mr. Jensen. After all he is a " bright " and I am a "woo-woo."
BUT I will admit, that when it comes to foreign languages, I am far from being talented, so if there is something, that you don`t understand, please do not hesitate to ask me.

Now to your questions:

the best thing would be if you could read my book. I hope that it is ok to mention it here? I was expelled from the Danish Skeptic Forum ( which only lasted for app. 5 --6 weeks because of that ).
As mentioned by the person above, I have written 14 pages app. about Lego. But only about their founding chart, which is very different from a forecast. We call a forecast for a prognosise in Danish. It changes every year.

The founding chart is called ( by me ): a structurel analysis.
To creat this correctly it requires the following:

1) founding date and year

2) time of founding ( does not excist )

3) longitude and latitude of founding.

As mentioned in my book, I have settled on the founding time 6 in the morning. Might be wrong. We don`t know. As I write:

" The founding time defines many important point in the horoscope: not only the Ascendant, but also the houses. One must work with correct data.
This is stressed even more when you forecast. If the founding time is just four minutes off, the analysis is one year off the mark"

It will take a lot of time Mr. Brown to explain, what is the different between a structural analysis and a forecast. But I can offer you to send you my book, and then you can read about it yourself. For free.

Shortly: the structural analysis deals with the potentials of the company. The CEO can use them or he/she can choose not to use them.

The forecast is dealing with the opportunities of the future. It also reveals the excate time to implemente the different actions etc. etc.
2 very different analysis.

Yours sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Zep]

Gentlefolk,

Pardon me for intruding on the conversation, but I'm keen to see Ms Boesen's responses to questions here, such as those from Brown, not interpretations of same by third parties. So Claus, could I ask you kindly to allow her to respond in her own words, and NOT to antagonise the situation. We are all well aware of the "differences of opinion" on this subject in Denmark currently. Let her speak for herself.

And let me state from the start, Ms Boesen, that most of us are interested in your field of work and how you believe it operates, not any personal differences and feuds. We genuinely welcome good, solid evidence for any new and different phenomena - evidence obtained and presented in a logical scientific manner (you will note the tenor of Brown's questions already - he is a good example).

And with that said, welcome to our forum!

[CFLarsen]

Zep,

Fine with me. Sit back and get ready for a ride... :)

[Mogens Winther]

Concerning KB’s reaction to last weeks newsletter :

What I really like about Karen is that every time JREF mentions her in his newsletter, she gets so furious that she starts revealing an amazing treasure trove of intricate details about both her work and her association.

In the case at hand, Lego, she has published more than 3000 words since Randis newsletter.

Now it turns out that KB cannot make an astrological prediction for Lego , “since one does not know the time when the company was founded. ”

But how come? – her book on astrological management has a chapter of fourteen (14 !) pages devoted to nothing but the horoscope of this company.

According to Karen's investigations, Lego was 'born' on August 13, 1932 – at 06.00 – which places this company in Leo.

lego-s.jpg

As KB writes in her book on p. 90 “What an excellent date for a company which manufactures toys. Why excellent ? .. because this company is born in the sign of Leo.“

Here KB refers to a previous chapter, p. 42, where she gives the following description of zodiac Leo : “Without any comparison the most regal of all signs – no one above me, no one beside me.” etc...

As KB continues in her chapter on Leo Lego :

“Let us assume that the owner of Lego, having run his company for a few years, approached a business astrologer in order for him to make a structural analysis. “

And again – on the following pages nothing but positive buzzwords (all bold letters by MW) :

“- You would probably have to say that these aspects present the company with qualities that it definitely needs. In particular because the position of the planets is both concrete and creative which is almost, indeed no less than, outstanding. “

In addition:

“The planets in Lego's horoscope are in the signs of, respectively, Virgo, Cancer, and Capricorn, and in the first, the fifth and the eleventh houses, which is an eminent position since these signs and houses - in short - deal with everyday routines of work/the long-term objective, human resources and the field of managerial strategy and the development of ideas. Could you ask for more than this?”

No doubt : clear sky and sunshine-reggae all the way for Leo Lego.

In addition, here again the 2002 newspaper article in which Lego was praised to the sky: “...the company really has a quite fantastic horoscope. The toy manufacturer is simply as strong as a shooting star. The relations between Venus and Saturn are really good, and Venus is particularly positive. It is a super horoscope, Karen Boesen explains.”

This newspaper article was distributed by Karen via email to almost everyone, and is still mentioned on the webpage

http://www.businessastrologers.com/NYHANNAH.htm

So far, no hesitations at all, not one word correcting the original estimates.


But then – on Jan 09 2004 – all Danish newspapers published the story about Lego’s record deficit.


On the very same day – based on the very same August 13, 1932 birthdata - Karen suddenly turns 180 Degrees :


“BUT, if we assume that the date August 13th stands the progressive Sun in square to Saturn, which is an extremely strong and stressful aspect, which in a very noble way describes the situation, and which people in this company experience as at present. Inertia, low growth, elimination of everything, which in no way is giving profit, cut-downs on all the line, downsizing . . . in the developing sector.”


On 10 January 2004 - 16:16 - she even claims that if Lego's 'birth data' as mentioned above are valid, she can “easily observe several reasons for firing the Lego company director” :

“Sun in Square to Saturn, Transit Uranus in Opposition to the Ascendant, and a progressive happiness point in opposition to Mars during the first 3 months of 2004.“


Really amazing, Karen , when we remember your writing above : "we don`t have any idea, what is the founding time of Lego, BECAUSE of that, we cannot forecast! "


But – how come you did not reveal all these dark and nasty secrets a long time ago?


The applied data are identical all the way – so why weren't we made aware of this apparently bad director several years ago – when the economy of Leo Lego was still going strong? – when these calamities could still have been avoided ?


Most amazing, when dealing with humans, people have one birth day – if one pays a bit extra, the astrologer may move your birth some hours back and forth, but that is usually it.


However, in the field of business astrology a company may choose among several possible birthdays.


Usually, you may select the very moment, when the founder of the company got the idea of starting on his own, when he invented his first product, or the moment when the company had its first official reception, or the moment when the company was officially registered at the tax department, etc.

Still, astrologers do not doubt that the very moment selected can be of critical importance. In the case of a not-so-lucky Danish Travel Agency – KB later wrote that if only the owner of the company had postponed the official opening by 10-15 minutes, the astrological image would have been much better. :

http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Larsen%20Rejser.htm


Surely, the moment of birth is of crucial importance!


But how about the birth data of Karen's own association, the ISBA - http://www.businessastrologers.com ?


According to the official webpages, Karen gave 'birth' to the ISBA on March 10, 1997 at 09:09:00 a.m. in Copenhagen.

Following Karen’s recent reactions, a company-owning ISBA member, who seems to have become tired of Karens numerous escapades, has send me a most interesting copy of the ISBA newsletter Dec 2003.


According to this - the stars do not smile on the ISBA: Actually, the ISBA suffers due to a bad Pluto transit – which again has implied “many weird experiences, not least from the so-called Skeptics.”


The newsletter continues : “One could ask why we did not find another date to establish ISBA, since the ideal chart was so challenged. “

This was ardently discussed among the board members during the first year of ISBA, with both pro and con arguments. The result was that we nevertheless kept the original chart - given to us by the Universe.”

If you want to become a member of this Pluto-affected association – simply click www.businessastrologers.com - all currencies accepted .


This would all be most funny, if it had not been for the very part of business astrology devoted to the astrological “selection of managers and employees, teambuilding” etc.

Click www.erhvervsastrologi.dk or www.businessastrologers.com / http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Kurser%20english.htm


All these methods are in direct violation of the International ILO ethical declarations concerning protection of workers data, section 6.11 - http://www.ilo.org/public/english/support/publ/pdf/protect.pdf .


Personally, I cannot help comparing these unproven (and according to KB’s bad results, also invalid) methods with phrenology :

- the well-known “human resource” phrenology methods, by which people were selected/rejected due to the shape of their skulls.

More not unsuccesful predictions from mrs Boesen : www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm

Enjoy -

Mogens Winther

Skeptical Aquarian

http://www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm www.businessastrologers.com (http://www.businessastrologers.com) http://www.businessastrologers.com/Isbainthemedia.htm

[Karen Boesen]

Please find my answers below:


Now it turns out that KB cannot make an astrological prediction for Lego , “since one does not know the time when the company was founded. ”

But how come? – her book on astrological management has a chapter of fourteen (14 !) pages devoted to nothing but the horoscope of this company.

KAREN: " right. 14 pages on Lego`s founding chart. From 1932. "

According to Karen's investigations, Lego was 'born' on August 13, 1932 – at 06.00 – which places this company in Leo.



As KB writes in her book on p. 90 “What an excellent date for a company which manufactures toys. Why excellent ? .. because this company is born in the sign of Leo.“

Here KB refers to a previous chapter, p. 42, where she gives the following description of zodiac Leo : “Without any comparison the most regal of all signs – no one above me, no one beside me.” etc...

As KB continues in her chapter on Leo Lego :

“Let us assume that the owner of Lego, having run his company for a few years, approached a business astrologer in order for him to make a structural analysis. “

And again – on the following pages nothing but positive buzzwords (all bold letters by MW) :

“- You would probably have to say that these aspects present the company with qualities that it definitely needs. In particular because the position of the planets is both concrete and creative which is almost, indeed no less than, outstanding. “

In addition:

“The planets in Lego's horoscope are in the signs of, respectively, Virgo, Cancer, and Capricorn, and in the first, the fifth and the eleventh houses, which is an eminent position since these signs and houses - in short - deal with everyday routines of work/the long-term objective, human resources and the field of managerial strategy and the development of ideas. Could you ask for more than this?”

KAREN: "correct! What is your problem? I am talking/writing about the chart of 1932."

No doubt : clear sky and sunshine-reggae all the way for Leo Lego.

In addition, here again the 2002 newspaper article in which Lego was praised to the sky: “...the company really has a quite fantastic horoscope. The toy manufacturer is simply as strong as a shooting star. The relations between Venus and Saturn are really good, and Venus is particularly positive. It is a super horoscope, Karen Boesen explains.”

KAREN: "yes, we were talking about the 1932 chart. I have never worked out any forecast.
By the way, you cannot compare the Danish and the English edition. There is an extra chapter in the English.
On page 146 I write:
" ... correct data are essential to creating strategy plans ( forecasts ) .... If the time is wrong, the analysis is worthless, or worse, misguiding. "
" Because of that: No forecast has been worked out for Lego. Noone knows the correct date of founding."

This newspaper article was distributed by Karen via email to almost everyone, and is still mentioned on the webpage

http://www.businessastrologers.com/NYHANNAH.htm

KAREN: "Correct. Before my lecture in the International Business Club you send out a very dirty press release about me and my work. One of our very rough newspapers showed up and printed a wonderful - 2 pages - article on the following Sunday. Not mentioning the skeptics at all. Half of our country was laughing. ( Small country), because you - as you use to, again and again, made a fool of yourself.
As I have said before, noone can promote astrology better than the skeptics. Thank you very much Mr. Winhter. "

So far, no hesitations at all, not one word correcting the original estimates.


But then – on Jan 09 2004 – all Danish newspapers published the story about Lego’s record deficit.


On the very same day – based on the very same August 13, 1932 birthdata - Karen suddenly turns 180 Degrees :


“BUT, if we assume that the date August 13th stands the progressive Sun in square to Saturn, which is an extremely strong and stressful aspect, which in a very noble way describes the situation, and which people in this company experience as at present. Inertia, low growth, elimination of everything, which in no way is giving profit, cut-downs on all the line, downsizing . . . in the developing sector.”

KAREN: "Yes, I was asked - by a student in a chatroom for astrologers - about the chart. The fictive chart for Lego. and I told her that IF the data was correct etc. etc. We are now talking about the chart for 2004. Very, very different from the chart of 1932."

On 10 January 2004 - 16:16 - she even claims that if Lego's 'birth data' as mentioned above are valid, she can “easily observe several reasons for firing the Lego company director” :

“Sun in Square to Saturn, Transit Uranus in Opposition to the Ascendant, and a progressive happiness point in opposition to Mars during the first 3 months of 2004.“

KAREN: "yes, what is your problem?"

Really amazing, Karen , when we remember your writing above : "we don`t have any idea, what is the founding time of Lego, BECAUSE of that, we cannot forecast! "

KAREN: "No, we cannot forecast, and we have not made any forecasts. But of course we can discuss aspects etc in a fictive situation. We are astrologers. What is wrong with that? Apart from the fact, that you start to manipulate, twist the meaning etc. Not important. We are used to that. As Claus Larsen printed in a Danish fora, when Randi had passed on your lies: " now we have made a fool of you - worldwide! " Very serious. Really skepticism, which deserves respect."
Randi forgot to ask me, if the story he printed was the truth. He does not seem to care either. THAT is the problem!


But – how come you did not reveal all these dark and nasty secrets a long time ago?

KAREN: "easy to explain. I did not reveal these dark secrets long ago, because I did not know about them. I have never worked out a forecast for Lego."


The applied data are identical all the way – so why weren't we made aware of this apparently bad director several years ago – when the economy of Leo Lego was still going strong? – when these calamities could still have been avoided ?

KAREN: "read above!"

Most amazing, when dealing with humans, people have one birth day – if one pays a bit extra, the astrologer may move your birth some hours back and forth, but that is usually it.

KAREN: "Nonsense."

However, in the field of business astrology a company may choose among several possible birthdays.


Usually, you may select the very moment, when the founder of the company got the idea of starting on his own, when he invented his first product, or the moment when the company had its first official reception, or the moment when the company was officially registered at the tax department, etc.

Still, astrologers do not doubt that the very moment selected can be of critical importance. In the case of a not-so-lucky Danish Travel Agency – KB later wrote that if only the owner of the company had postponed the official opening by 10-15 minutes, the astrological image would have been much better. :

http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erh...en%20Rejser.htm

KAREN: "more nonsense, and you know that!"

Surely, the moment of birth is of crucial importance!


But how about the birth data of Karen's own association, the ISBA - http://www.businessastrologers.com ?


According to the official webpages, Karen gave 'birth' to the ISBA on March 10, 1997 at 09:09:00 a.m. in Copenhagen.

Following Karen’s recent reactions, a company-owning ISBA member, who seems to have become tired of Karens numerous escapades, has send me a most interesting copy of the ISBA newsletter Dec 2003.


According to this - the stars do not smile on the ISBA: Actually, the ISBA suffers due to a bad Pluto transit – which again has implied “many weird experiences, not least from the so-called Skeptics.”


The newsletter continues : “One could ask why we did not find another date to establish ISBA, since the ideal chart was so challenged. “

This was ardently discussed among the board members during the first year of ISBA, with both pro and con arguments. The result was that we nevertheless kept the original chart - given to us by the Universe.”

If you want to become a member of this Pluto-affected association – simply click www.businessastrologers.com - all currencies accepted .

KAREN: "What is your problem?"

This would all be most funny, if it had not been for the very part of business astrology devoted to the astrological “selection of managers and employees, teambuilding” etc.

Click www.erhvervsastrologi.dk or www.businessastrologers.com / http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erh...r%20english.htm


All these methods are in direct violation of the International ILO ethical declarations concerning protection of workers data, section 6.11 - http://www.ilo.org/public/english/s...pdf/protect.pdf .


Personally, I cannot help comparing these unproven (and according to KB’s bad results, also invalid) methods with phrenology :

- the well-known “human resource” phrenology methods, by which people were selected/rejected due to the shape of their skulls.

More not unsuccesful predictions from mrs Boesen : www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm

Enjoy -

Mogens Winther

KAREN: "to the reader: Mr. Winther has tried again and again to come through with a prohibition against my work. Since 1997. No luck at all. Of course we are fighting for our human rights, and if necessary we will go to the European Hag Court of Justice.
The fight has just begun! We are looking forward to a fair fight without lies, manipulation etc.

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Cleopatra]

Hello Karen and welcome to the forum. :)

Those of us who have spent time in Astrology know the importance of the Birth Chart. We sketch birth charts only for a single purpose: to investigate the individual's progress in the future based on the elements of its character that this chart reveals to us.

A birth chart, as the one you created for the company in question , is by definition a tool for prognosis.If you were interested in sketching the nature of company you wouldn't need to apply any time of birth.

As you know, in Astrology when we cannot specify the time of birth we use as Ascendant the position of the sun. An experienced Astrologer can surpass the burden of the time of birth and have all the necessary info he needs.

I must confess that I am amazed with your insisting that you didn't proceed in any predictions. The creation of a Birth Chart is by definition a tool of prediction. Progessions is not the only way to predict the future. You don't need to create a progressive chart in order to make predictions.A simple birth chart can speak volumes about the path the subject of our study will follow.

So, how can you suggest that you haven't posted any predictions? What sort of analysis was that that didn't include any reference to the future since by the phrase I read here: " What an excellent date for a company which manufactures toys. Why excellent ? .. because this company is born in the sign of Leo.“

This IS a prediction.

I do not wish to fool you: I have spent years in Astrology but I am skeptical towards Astrology.

Although I detect some tension from your part I assure you that this can be a really hospitable place for discussion. Personally I can guarantee a discussion without resorting to personaly attacks. Of course we have certain rules that I am sure that you have understood and realized since you agreed to come and post here.

Do you need any help with the features of the forum? For example have you understood how the "quote" feature works. If not please let us know, the moderators will help you to figure this out!

[Karen Boesen]

Thank you Cleopatra for your welcome! I don`t know if you have ever work with business astrology. I have for 32 years.

It will be too complicated to reveal the different methods of astrology in this forum. After all we are among skeptics.

Of course there is a sort of prognosis in the statements, which you quote, but on the other hand they have nothing to do with stategy planning. If you know about astrology, I assume that you agree on that? A forecast is related to time first of all.

Also you must agree on the fact, that there is a big difference between 1932 and 2004. Right?
Yes, I know that there are many types of forecasts. But that was not the issue in my book. My book is written for business people, and I only wanted to show them, what a structural analysis contents. Nothing else.

The stuff reg. quotation etc. is not at all important to me. But thank you anyway!

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Karen Boesen]

Dear reader,

Below you will find the 14 pages, which I have done on Lego.

Karen Boesen

______________________________________________

LEGO A/S

True entrepreneurial companies are always admired. Lego A/S is such a company. It is headquartered in the west of Denmark, where production still takes place. The company was founded by Ole Kirk Christiansen, a carpenter, who used to hand-make children's toys in his spare time.

This pioneer is gone today, and the company is managed by his son, Keld Kirk Kristiansen, who has led the development of the last decades, where Lego has become a million-dollar business with products known by children and adults all over the world.

Lego A/S is founded in Billund, Denmark, on August 13, 1932 at 6.00. am accourding to the company itself. But it is a fictive date.

Anyway a wonderful date for a toy-manufacturer. Why wonderful? Because the company in the sign of Leo. The Leo domain (please see the chapter on the natural horoscope) is precisely enjoyment, entertainment, playing, origination and creativity.

The horoscope ascendant is placed zero degrees in Virgo. We may suspect good old Ole Kirk Christiansen for starting his company a little before 6 am, so that the company would be a so-called double-Leo (with both the Sun and the ascendant in Leo) but we will never know.


Figure 20: Founding horoscope Lego A/S


The theory we will try to illustrate through the horoscope in this chapter is the theory of the "creative tension", which as mentioned before is inspired by Peter Senge. Just the name: The Creative Tension really works well with a company like Lego, since creativity, origination and development of ideas are all part of the 5th house, home of Leo.

I have chosen – of course – to work with this field (5th house) as well as the filed of the Learning Organization/Sales (3rd house). I think both areas are relevant to a company of Lego's character, since it must always develop new products, through the learning process in the company - among the employees. This process is reflected in the 3rd house and the planets connected to that area. So let us jump straight to those houses and planets!

Figure 21: The Creative Tension in Lego

Immediately we strike gold, since two of the most important planets are located in the 5th house. They form an opposition to three planets in the 11th house. Challenging influences, that is. This means that there is plenty to work with in this area, which is quite natural, all things considered. Moreover we find a very important point in the 5th house, the synthesis of the horoscope, the Part of Fortune.

The 3rd house has no planets. The cusp is in Libra, ruled by Venus. This planet opposes the two planets in the 5th house, Saturn and the Moon, and this gives us assistance and information from many parts of the horoscope. To conclude the technical analysis of the constellations, we must also analyze the rulers of the 3rd and 5th houses, Mercury and the Sun. Both are located in Leo in the 12th house.

So far so good. As you can see, many significant planets and house positions refer to the 5th house and to Leo.


Creativity elevated
In my dealings with astrology through 30 years, 20 of which in full-time employment as an astrologer, I have seen countless horoscopes of people possessing creative and originative powers, who exploited these in their careers.

A classic combination in this field is a strong connection between Mars and Venus. Especially when we talk of manual creativity, which is necessary for arts, crafts, decorating, fashion and related areas.

This vital aspect is naturally, I might almost say, found in Lego’s horoscope. It is almost a basic requirement for such a company. This aspect also indicates a very good color sense and generally appeals to the senses.

To develop toy s of the kind we are working with here, it is also necessary that the company has other traits, such as fantasy connected with the unrealistic and dreaming (Neptune). As you will see later on in the analysis, these aspects are provided other places in the horoscope.

Again we can conclude, as in the case of ST, there is a lot for an astrologer to work with in this horoscope. Also when we look at the creative tension as a form of management. This is what we must try to set to work seen from an astrological point of view.

It is doubtful that the management has had the creative tension at the back of their heads through the years. There is no doubt, however, that it has been capable of creatively handling the challenges seen in this part of the horoscope.

The Creative Tension
The creative tension is much combined with learning in any company. Exploiting the potential is connected with how the management uses this capacity for change. After all, it is through the management and the decisions it makes that a culture evolves, also as regards learning, which enables the company to handle challenging aspects creatively.

As mentioned in the introduction to this chapter, the creative tension in brief requires you to consider the following:

a) Where is the company? A realistic evaluation!
b) Where does the company want to be?
c) How is the tension between these two points best used managerially – how is the vision used to create motivation, involvement, and learning in the organization.

As regards learning and creativity in Lego, Venus is the planet, that, combined with other planets and aspects, answers a lot of questions. This is lucky for Lego, since Venus symbolizes creativity in the natural horoscope, and because it in this specific horoscope has such a prominent place.

Apart from the conjunction with Mars (in Cancer, the sign of human resources), Venus has a challenging aspect to the Moon (planet of human resources) in Capricorn (overall/long-term strategy) in the 5th house (creativity and development of ideas). In the 5th house we also find Saturn (overall/long-term strategy) as well as the Part of Fortune (synthesis of the horoscope).

In connection with the two fields we have chosen to work with - the field of learning and the field of creativity and development of ideas, I will also look at the Sun (ruler of the 5th house in the natural horoscope), Mercury (ruler of the 3rd house in the natural horoscope). These two planets and their aspects tell us more about the options and potential available to the company.

One must assume that a company such as Lego is strongly dependent on being able to create new ideas. Which makes us wonder at Saturn being placed in the 5th house. Not exactly the most fertile planet in this area. The challenging aspect to Pluto is, or has been, another obstacle.

The Vision of the target
In the problem solving model of management theory the objective is to move away from the condition indicated by the challenging aspects, or to solve the inherent problems.
When you work with the creative tension, the energy must primarily be sought after in the visions of the company. In brief: where do you want to go. The management then uses the energy of the creative tension to move forward.


Well, we haven't had the opportunity of conversing Ole Kirk Christiansen, but we must assume that this pioneer envisioned the creation of a unique product.

The vision in this horoscope is not in the opportunities available for moving away from the challenges, but instead in making positive use of the energy to phrase and work with the vision.

The two houses involved in the tension of creativity and development of ideas are the 5th and the 11th house. The cusps are placed in Sagittarius and Gemini, respectively, where Jupiter and Mercury rule (natural horoscope). These two planets are central to Lego’s horoscope, because they are in aspect to rules of precisely the 3rd and 5th house of the natural horoscope. How fascinating!

The aspects and constellations of the 5th and 11th houses oppose one another. This means that they are part of challenging aspects/influences which would normally be considered restraining. Not leastly because Saturn is part of this pattern - you would usually consider these constellation unproductive as regards creative development.
We know that things have gone quite differently, which indicates that the company has been able to use the aspects creatively.

Let's see how this can have happened.

The Creative Tension set to work
There are two dominant aspect constellations in the 5th and 11th houses.
One is the Mars/Venus conjunction which opposes the Moon. The other is Pluto opposing Saturn, placed in the for a toy manufacturer vital area of the 5th house. To avoid complicating the analysis we will not go into the Part of Fortune.

We will try to show an example of how the influences can be used constructively to improve motivation and the general conditions of the company.

The management must understand how the tension can be put to work.
This requires a clear idea of where one wants to be. We must assume the Lego wants the creative potential set free for optimum use in product development. The creative potential is somewhat hampered by the opposition to the Moon, - however this challenging aspect is not among the most significant.

The Moon rules both the physical location and the more abstract human resources – employee conditions such as emotional security, values, social groups and close work relationships.
The current situation seen in the horoscope is that the creative process expressed through the Venus-Mars conjunction, is suppressed by conditions connected with the locations and human resources-processes in the organization. We will not go into the placement of planets in signs and houses although these provide valuable information. This is just an example of how you can advice astrologically.

Back to the tension. As astrologers we must help the management of the company, in this case Lego, manage the organization in a manner that makes use of the energy in this tension.

The management must motivate employees and influence the learning process of the organization to create a company atmosphere necessary to make use of the energy.
As mentioned before, Venus is a very important planet in this connection, since it rules the 3rd house, the area of the learning organization, and also the 10th house or the MC, which is concerned with overall and long-term strategy. And that is important in Lego as well as in any other company.

How to make optimum use of the tension?
Most people, especially in out part of the world, know of Lego, and therefore many of us are also quite familiar with the development of the company over the years, even though we do not have knowledge of the management and other internal factors in the company.

Because of this, I will allow myself to consider Lego’s horoscope a case story which could have been about any toy manufacturer. Let us assume, that the owner of Lego, after having run the company for a couple of years, contacted a business astrologer to have a structure analysis made.

First and foremost to get advice regarding the problems in the challenging aspects, but of course also to get information about possible unused resources in the company.

If we base our analysis on the theory of this example, our recommendations to the client could look like the following:

Let us summarize - challenging aspects
1) Involved planets in the ”Creative Tension”, which we will try to use as resources, are Venus, Mars and the Moon.
2) These planets are - according to their nature and placement in the horoscope - concerned with the essence of the company's production: creativity and development.
3) These planets rule and guide us in the following company fields:
a) development and creativity (Leo and the 5th house)
b) sales and the learning organization (3rd house)
c) human resources (4th house)
d) overall strategy (10th house)

The first step on the road to constructive use of the creative tension is that the company acknowledges that there is a problem.

This problem can have many causes, and we do not know these reasons when we work with the analysis before meeting with the client. A guess could be serious disagreement between management and production/product development in the company.

There is also a possibility that the organization has never made use of the creative energy originating from the tension.

My advice to this company would be, firstly, to make use of the knowledge that the aspects provide us about the problems, and try to make it an advantage that there is tension between on the one hand creativity and on the other hand employee culture, sales, and training programs.

This could for example be carried out by the company appointing teams with representatives from all employee groups – not only the creative ones – and gave them the task of finding possible development models that could exploit the potential in the tension. Perhaps by establishing employee courses that dealt with available resources in times of conflict.

A brainstorming would also be productive as it often generates ideas and material that has not been available before - for the simple reason that no one has bothered to think along these new lines.

In brief the key questions could be: “Where are we now? Where do we want to be? How do we get there? ” And in the mean time - and this is probably the most important question to answer: “How does the management from now on make the best use of the inherent energy in the tension aspects"

How exactly to implement these solution models is impossible to answer at this stage, because it will be an individual matter from company to company, depending on type of products size of employee force, company resources in terms of educational level and financial level and human resource management, just to mention a few relevant factors.

In order for an astrologer to answer such questions one must have deep knowledge of the company, conversations with managers and the opportunity to influence daily work processes.

And this is usually only the case with companies that one has worked with for years, building mutual trust, and thus being able to form a picture of work processes, decision processes etc. in the organization.

A very important requirement for managing using the “Creative Tension” will always be that the company management is not hierarchic. Much of the managerial work must be performed by the employees since they are wearing the shoes, so to speak.

An optimum organization would be one where it is possible to make use of the astrological advice, and combined with small department and a large degree of independence among employees.

Creative resources
The first part of the advisory process is to introduce the company manager (or owner) to the problems of the challenging aspects.
Then to introduce possible managerial solution models - for instance as the ones mentioned earlier - that only focus on the challenges and according to our theory enables the user to look at problems as possible resources.

But there are many other possibilities for an astrologer with the horoscope in her/his hands.
Once the problems and the associated creative resources are revealed, we can look at the positive resources offered by the company horoscope, which will help us understand and develop the issues below the surface of the company.

In the following brief analysis I will point out the positive aspects, that may help us make use of the potential, or at least enter the process in an easier manner and with better results than would otherwise be the case.


Figure 22: Creative Resources in Lego

An astrologer will quickly find these aspects, whereas company decision-makers might have to spend years locating the problems described by these aspects. Positive influences in a horoscope - and thus in the existence of a company or a person - are often influences that you use and consider a neutral part of your life, and that is of course true.

Even so it is often the case that in these positive influences you find resources that one has not been aware of previously and may profit you to a large extent.

For instance it can enhance the fruits of the other aspects, and can also introduce recommendations, which may be used for rationalization purposes.
The positive aspects I have chosen for this short case story are:
a) Jupiter conjunct Neptune
b) Jupiter/Neptune-conjunction trine the Moon.
c) Jupiter/Neptune-conjunction sextile the Mars/Venus-conjunction

Let us see what the aspects to Neptune, the Moon and Jupiter tell us about opportunities for a toy manufacturer with this horoscope – and afterwards which resources are accessible in relation to making better and more creative use of the challenging aspects.

Actually one can say that the organization through these aspects are presented with much-needed qualities. Especially because the placement of the planets indicate both concrete and creative traits - which can only be described as excellent.

Furthermore, Neptune is a collective planet, which means that the thoughts, visions, fantasies and development-oriented ideas created in the light of this planet have a pipeline to the collective unconscious. They wil appeal to everything that so many children (and adults, too) carry at the bottom of their psychological chest, the wish to create one's own universe, the wish to play and for a time lose oneself in a world apart from reality and everyday life.

The planets of the Lego horoscope are placed in Virgo, Cancer and Capricorn, and in the 1st, 5th and 11th houses, excellent, as these signs and houses deal with daily work processes, overall strategy, human resources and management strategy and development ideas. One can hardly ask for more?
In a way, you could say that the positive aspects bear the seed of a managerial competitive parameter, since they influence concrete aspects of a process, where the development potential, that must be released by management, is connected to qualities that are also important to production, creativity and development of ideas.

How is the analytic model supported by the positive aspects?
Going through the challenging aspects we determined that this company could find suitable solution models by using the challenges in a positive manner – for instance by using the creative potential and development aspects in changes to the management structure and management process. In the analysis of the positive aspects we see that we receive yet another helping hand in this area – which is always welcome.

This means that we can further advise this manufacturer of toys that he/she can count on the positive aspects to supply the company with the resources necessary to particularly the learning processes. This company will always – through the positive aspects (Neptune sextile Venus) be able to develop and make use of the knowledge that is produced in the company. A very important competitive parameter in this connection could be that the company hired new employees with skills and knowledge that had not previously been present in the company (Jupiter sextile Mars), or on-going training of current employees and/or inclusion of foreign impulses in the development of ideas.

Innovation is a key concept in this company – indicated by the positive aspect between the Jupiter/ Neptune-conjunction and Mars. This innovative ability can be developed through a new local human resources strategy which can then be expanded to subsidiaries abroad if relevant and realistic. Another model for the company to try out – based on the Moons positive aspect to Neptune – could be to use the potential to transform the company’s inherent energy as to management, employees and generation of ideas to shape a new strategy for product development questions. There are many inspiring possibilities, and depending on the chosen solution model there may also be rationalization profits if for instance production is relocated abroad.

I would like to point out that I personally do not support a company moving production to foreign countries if the sole motive is cheap work force. It is a phenomenon we often encounter, and which is not very appealing. Nevertheless, when we work with this individual company, in regard to foreign countries and innovation it is structured in a manner that opens up for considerable profits in this area. One should also look into how this is used practically.

The company could also use the influences to intensify the rationalization process using logistics and automation. Or implementation of new IT, technology or other forms of advanced production and communication tools.

All these areas require a conversation with the decision-makers of the company – in this case they only serve to illustrate how the various fields can be used practically. Furthermore – even though we are based in the Lego horoscope – this case has evolved to a general example which doesn’t only apply to an individual company.



How often is a structural analysis created and interpreted? Does it change?
Contrary to strategic planning, which we will look at in the following, you only crate a structural analysis once. This analysis doesn’t change every year as the strategic plan which continuously develops new potential.

This does not mean that the structural analysis is deterministic. One has the opportunity, as we have seen in the past two examples, of working with all the influences in the analysis.

What may be the most important in this connection is that the structural analysis can provide the company owner or manager with important input regarding unused resources and regarding the sources of encountered problems. This can result in the company being able to make full use of the entire potential, which is otherwise not often the case.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Thank you Cleopatra for your welcome! I don`t know if you have ever work with business astrology. I have for 32 years.

I am not a professional Astrologer but none has started professionally right? :) After spending a lot of time in Birth Charts I have worked a lot on horary astrology and since my passion is food and I have friends who own restaurants in NYC and Athens I have created some business charts for them.

By all means I do not have your experience but I am not "illiterate" astrologically speaking, so I can follow you very well and I am fluent with the astrological terminology on a really advanced level. :)

It will be too complicated to reveal the different methods of astrology in this forum. After all we are among skeptics.

What distinguishes Astrology from magic for example is that it doesn't have professional tricks to reveal. Nobody can become astrologer out of the blues. You need to spend time in reading books and practice a lot with people and charts. When somebody presents to me an astrological claim, I do not reject it our of principle. I examine it. I have already created the chart of the Lego company and I have it in front of my eyes based on the data I read in this thread. :)

Of course there is a sort of prognosis in the statements, which you quote, but on the other hand they have nothing to do with stategy planning. If you know about astrology, I assume that you agree on that? A forecast is related to time first of all.

There is no doubt that the more clues you have the better predictions you can accomplish. The better in Astrology doesn't mean " more accurate", it means that you can specify better the time frame in which the events that are predicted will occur.

But it's not necessary. In one of my travels in Syria I met an astrologer who was a very nice and wise person. He showed me how you can use the exact degress of the position of the planets. For example my Sun is at the 27 4' 44'' of Taurus. By turning degrees into days and months you can achieve some pretty good predictions. Of course you have to be good in maths. :) I was quite impressed and it worked fine for me.

I hope that you agree that a good Astrologer doesn't need a computer in order to proceed to a prediction. The positions of the planets, the calculation of the degress and of course experience can reveal to him pretty much.

To return to Lego, the birth chart of the company can predict the basic phases of the company. The Moon period of its life, the Mercury/Venus period. The Aries period and Jupiter period if the company will last that much.These periods phases can be used to plan the stragedy.

My point is that a birth chart is a prognostic tool so maybe you have to consider to rephrase your claims.

You did do some prognosis but maybe you need to specify the sort of prognossis you did because otherwise you leave the door open to severe criticism. :)

Also you must agree on the fact, that there is a big difference between 1932 and 2004. Right?

Yes of course but I am not sure what you mean. If you wish explain to me.

Yes, I know that there are many types of forecasts. But that was not the issue in my book. My book is written for business people, and I only wanted to show them, what a structural analysis contents. Nothing else.

My husband was in the stock market business. He didn't believe in Astrology but his partner did so I know the nature of questions businessmen pose. :) " Will I make money"? " What do I have to do in order to achieve that? " :)

The stuff reg. quotation etc. is not at all important to me. But thank you anyway!

No it's not a matter of importance it's just that it makes the discussion more easy to follow.

edited for spelling

[Cleopatra]

Oopps You posted the horoscope. Thank you very much! Back in a while! :)

[Karen Boesen]

A small and very compremised example of a forecast.
Case Story: Skandinavian Tobacco Compagny.

Lego has never been a case in that respect.

____________________________________________


STRATEGIC PLANNING
One of the questions I am often met with when I give lectures about astrology to business managers is: “Why should we use astrological counseling instead of or as a supplement to our usual advisors?”
As I have indicated earlier, the questions is easily answered: because astrologers, especially business astrologers can do things that no other advisors can. As simple as that!
That should be reason enough.
On the other hand, how can this be taken as anything but an allegation from me. Of course I can’t “prove” my claim during the few hours of a lecture. And so, potential clients have no other option than testing the product for themselves.
If one tries it, one could become dependent.
In my experience, many company managers get used to combining astrological advice with other types of counseling. This is the most sensible thing to do, in my opinion.
But we still live in a society where it is considered strange to use astrology professionally, and these attitudes influence the people who use business astrologers.
Several of the company owners I have worked with over the years have confided that they sometimes feel much provoked by the fact that astrology actually works, because they then do not wish to be without this tool. This dependence annoys many managers, which I both understand and not understand.
I do understand that one prefers to see results as a product of ones own knowledge and efforts and independent of outside aid. On the other hand it would be impossible for any human being, no matter who you are and how clever you are, to know exactly when to initiate activities, when to hold back and direct your energy to other resources. Those that are able to receive this energy. This is a new and different way of thinking, and I can understand that it is problematic initially.
Then again, my clients acknowledge that once they have seen for themselves that this type of advice cannot be gotten from any other source – it would be stupid no to use it. Thus benefiting all involved parties.
One of my larger clients, who has used astrology for app. 15 years, occasionally chooses to shut me/astrology out of the work with strategic planning – a decision you can make at any time.
I particularly remember an occasion where the managing director – having held a break for about 3 months after the end of the 2-year periods we usually worked with – contacted me and asked me to make a new strategic plan for the upcoming 2 years. Once again. He additionally asked me to include the 3-month period we had skipped and for which he hadn’t had a prognosis, and asked me to include the advice I would have given him for that period.
When I had done the relevant charts, it was soon clear that there had been quite a few challenging aspects in the past three months. Probably that was the reason for my client’s wish.
The nature of the challenges must have meant that it hadn’t been possible to carry out plans in those months.
Actually, it was very easy for me to describe the kinds of activities that could have caused problems.
As I recall, anything to do with foreign countries, contacts, negotiations, business conditions and so on in relation to other countries was strongly afflicted. Any astrologer would have told the decision-makers of this organization to under no circumstances engage in any form of new business areas related to other countries. The company should also avoid important negotiations as the communication planet Mercury was much afflicted. As we have seen earlier, Mercury’s domain is creating verbal and written contacts, in among other areas in negotiations.
This picture is of course simplified compared to the actual situation and the many partial areas that are influenced by such an aspect, which is why this brief description only serves as an example of the value of an annual prognosis. It is important to once again stress that an astrologer can offer unique information to a company.
My analysis dealt to a great extent with this problem situation, and the written report was sent to the client in advance of our meeting.
I recommend this procedure as it allows the client to study the material before the face-to-face meeting.
It turned out that the organization for the past three months had engaged in comprehensive negotiations with a large foreign company in the same line of business. My client’s goal was to acquire this other company to improve their own competitive ability and in addition gain a larger customer portfolio.
The company had during these three months – to no avail, of course – spent tons of time on negotiations, travelling, and even used the weekends to try and accelerate the situation.
The aspects had also lead to many power struggles (progressive Mars challenging Saturn).
But most importantly: the result of all the efforts was absolutely nothing. In short, they had misused their energy and therefore also resources, that could have been used in other areas of the company!
Timing is, as I have pointed out several times, the trump card of astrology. It would have been much wiser to have consulted an astrologer. Time is money, as they say – this investment had been bad indeed.
Looking at the new prognosis my advice to the client was to postpone further negotiations six months and then start afresh. At this time very positive aspects started to influence the horoscope, indicating that negotiations could almost not go wrong at this time.
It is always risky to listen to advice of this type, it may mean that at the end of the six months the company you had in mind has been bought by a competitor. To follow the advice requires you to be able to stay cool. And have confidence in astrology and you astrologer.
This was the case in my client’s company, and they postponed negotiations. At the right time, they contacted the other organization to restart their negotiations.
Luckily enough, they had no entered into agreements with any other potential buyers.
The company was now acquired on far better conditions that what had originally been discussed, which meant that the disposition had been very profitable.
In the following I will give an example – again very compressed – of a strategic analysis for Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni (from now on ST) in the year 2004. One of the companies that we have already looked at in the chapter on Structural analysis.
I will also stress that none of the companies we are working with here, Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni A/S and Lego A/S, are among my clients which means we can’t be certain of the founding time, as we have had no possibility of correction.
The time we are basing the analysis on is the time supplied by each company, the time the companies considers to be their official founding time. Reality may be different.
This mini analysis will not be used by ST, but only serve to enlighten the contents of a strategic plan.
Before you, the business astrologer, start working with a new company, there may be many hours of work before you are certain that the basic founding time is correct.
The below story may illustrate the problems.
At the end of the 1980’ies, where a new client approached me with a wish for help with the company’s future strategy plans, I had a great deal of detective work before I succeeded in finding the right founding time.
My client knew – which is not always the case – the date the organization was started, the year and the location. That is, latitude and longitude. But the founding time could only be narrowed down to sometime between 10 am and noon. That gave me two hours to work with, which may not seem a lot to non-astrologers, but is in fact a huge time span for an astrologer.
The day after my client placed his order, the company chauffeur arrived at my door with a stack of documents. They held information about company actions and larger changes through the period around the Second World War, where the company was established, and right up to the 80’ies, which was where I became involved.
Only one thing to do: start form the beginning and work my way through all the years!. This is an enormous job, which takes my time and company money. Detective work like this involves creation of many charts, verification of the times one works with and so on.
My husband, who is something of a historian, was allowed to read the documents, and we spent app. 8 days sifting through these historic documents, which were not only of astrological interest.
After these many hours of work I pinned down a founding time of 11:23 am. We have worked with this time since then, for app. 12-14 years, and it has proven to be valid.
This little story only serves to illustrate the size of the effort sometimes involved in finding the correct data. Data, which is essential to creating strategy plans with valid analyses. If the time is wrong, the analysis is worthless, or worse, misguiding.
Therefore this analysis of ST must be read knowing that the time may not be precise – and thus the analysis and its recommendations could be timed wrongly.

Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni A/S
Prognosis 2004
As we write, we are in the beginning of 2002, and you may declare that it must be difficult to make a statement about the period 1. January 2004-2005.
And you are right - and wrong.
Of course it is an advantage, when doing a prognosis, that two things are in order.
One is that you have knowledge of the company, its’ everyday business, decision process etc..
The other just as important is that you know what the company situation is at the time when you start the prognosis.
None of these criteria are met in the upcoming analysis – nevertheless I hope to give the reader a brief glimpse of what an astrological analysis offers its’ users.
An analysis usually spans a year and is structured in three main areas.
These are:
a) introduction
b) permanent aspects
c) timing
In an astrological annual prognosis, certain fields – or houses, as they are called in astrological terminology – are activated. These activated fields tell a company and its’ decision-makers within what areas they must make decisions at a given time. You could also describe it as the fields that are energized in the company in question.
It is important to stress that these fields are of neutral value. They only tell us what areas the company should concentrate on to follow the rhythm of the horoscope and thus the development process of the company.
Only when we look at the permanent aspects and timing do we start to determine whether the influences are positive or negative.


Activated fields 2004
ST should concentrate on the following areas in 2004:
a) the internal communication process (Virgo – 6th house)
b) the external communication process (for instance mergers, strategic alliances, partnerships – 7th house)
c) Funds, creditor and debtor policy, financing, structure processes (Scorpio – 8th house)
These are fields that demand a good deal of attention from the company – and all are large areas in a company.
We must stress that if or when the company wishes to restructure the mentioned areas, this must take place within those brief periods where the aspects are positive. More about this in the specific part of the analyses, which concentrates on timing.

The permanent aspects
In the following analysis I will only look at progressive aspects and the larger transits.
The most important aspects, without comparison – are the permanent aspects. They set the agenda. The permanent aspects operate in a horoscope the entire year – thus the word permanent. Let us look at them.
I will now briefly summarize, for the benefit of any reader with an astrological basic knowledge, what aspects we are dealing with. If you know something of astrology you will learn more from the analysis if you are able to follow the technical details. You do not, however, need to know about this to follow the analysis.

Figure 23. Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni, progressive horoscope for 2004


Positive permanent aspects:
§ Progressive Ascendant trine Natal Neptune
§ Progressive Sun trine Natal Pluto
§ Progressive Sun sextile Natal Mars
§ Progressive MC sextile progressive Mercury

Challenging permanent aspects:
§ Progressive Mercury square Jupiter
§ Progressive Mars opposing Saturn
§ Progressive Sun square progressive Jupiter
§ Transit Pluto square Sun

For the astrologically interested: I work with an orbis of 2½ degrees before the aspect is exact. In my experience, this is when the aspects starts to make an effect which continues until ½ a degree after the aspect has passed the exact position.

Figure 24: The permanent aspects for Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni



Interpretation of the permanent aspects
When I use the solution model, I always start my presentation with this most important part of the analysis by describing the challenging influences. This is not because I want to start with the negative, but – again in my experience – the challenges will work no matter what. There really isn’t any way around that.
Additionally, in experience, the challenging aspects have the attention of the clients - this is where their energy is concentrated.
The positive influences – successes – are often taken for granted, or at least as something that doesn’t require the same attention as the challenges, which is where the problems seem to be located.

2004 is a very important year for ST.
As mentioned, we don’t know at present what situation this company will be in, when we reach 2004. What has already passed in terms of legal incidents with customer groups? The smokers!
But if ST has changed their production methods, then they will have created an atmosphere of openness and honesty between manufacturer and buyer of products, and they will be on the right path. Do the customers know what they are buying? And do they know which harmful ingredients that may have been added to the tobacco to create addiction in the customer group – has this fact been marketed of nor?
All these questions are unanswerable at present.
They were part of the problems related to the law-suits back in 2000. They were also more than an ingredient in the questions that formed the legal base that opened the possibility for the smokers to file a suit against the company.
What is not uncertain at present is, that any skeletons in the closet will fall out in 2004 and continue to do so in 2005! Whether they want to or not, they will now be forced to enter into a thorough re-engineering process, an in-depth one. Actually you can say that both 2004 and 2005 show aspects, which will have the consequence that the company overall strategy must change radically over the coming years.
In other words, we are not discussing minor adjustments here.

Managerial problems
Looking at the structural analysis we already noticed that management issues were less than optimum in ST. Even so, there is, or was, resources to draw on. This is also the case in the annual prognosis for 2004, which we will look at now.
But the year 2004 tells the management, that in spite of power struggles and hiring/firing at the very top of the hierarchy in ST, they have to change their managerial strategy radically. No matter what decisions have been made earlier. If they can’t do it themselves, their surroundings will do it for them.
An example could be that the society comes to know of the conditions that have been kept secret so far, and which will force the management to rethink the concept of openness.
The best advice for a company with aspects like this is to clean up, before the influences come to bear. It is always nicest to be the one controlling the development, instead of being forced to do so.
There are always two options when these sort of intense aspects appear. One – most recommendable – is to take action yourself.
The other more unpleasant is to try and uphold the status quo – an unchanged situation relying on the old model.
No doubt it can become a process, which will set off internal problems, assessing one another in various areas of responsibility – and you can’t predict the end result. It depends on what is going on internally in the company at the time – information we don’t have.
Another thing that decision-makers must consider is that the necessary reengineering process also must involve development-oriented potential and a novel approach to internal communication. This covers work methods, routines, job descriptions in the production process and employee conditions.
The last of the challenging areas I will mention covers several fields in the horoscope. They are:
a) funds
b) creditor and debtor policy
c) financing
d) the learning organization/sales strategy
e) legal conditions.
Quite a bit of work – but let us see what can be done.
There are resources available for this reengineering process. From several sides through the positive permanent aspects which offer a new path and the ability to change on different conditions than earlier. But – first you must face the problems and try to work with them.

Managerial resources
Five of the most important areas in the year 2004 concerned with structural change are:
a) Mergers, business relations partnerships etc.
b) External communication
c) Internal communication
d) Sales strategy and the learning organization
e) Development of ideas
It is within these areas that the resources are mainly located. Very good areas to be able to act within.
Furthermore, some of these areas are among those afflicted by the challenging aspects. That is excellent, because it indicates that once the in-depth structural changes have been effectuated, you have the positive aspects to use in building completely new settings for all areas.
Looking at mergers and business relations – item a – this could mean that the company might enter into large-scale change concerned with the construction of the entire company. Such a change could also mean that one started to use entirely new means of internal communication in the company.
For instance by reengineering the production conditions. Possibly towards more visible operations – both in terms of employee insight in existing conditions – and, what may turn out to be more important, in terms of making the production process transparent to the society – customers, that is.
Internal communication is connected to the corporate culture and human resources, so such a decision would indeed result in structural changes and influence the overall strategy. Internal communications in ST is not a very visible area in the horoscope (and thus in the organization) which was also apparent in the structural analysis.
But I must stress that in 2004 the company horoscope holds very positive aspects for entering into strategic alliances, new business relations and also for the internal communication process. Especially because ST can try and make use of hidden or unrevealed – but accessible – areas of the horoscope within this field.
In other words – the energies can be used positively which is to be preferred.
More important in this connection is that the new internal communication forms are strongly connected to the new overall strategy in ST. No small adaptations, but significant moves.
Formerly I mentioned power struggles in connection with new strategies.
This is still the case, but I want to add that such struggles are energized by the positive aspects, particularly in relation item d and e, as well as to what we have discussed above. Power struggles and internal disagreements need not mean pulverization of the company – seen from the astrologers point of view.

Sales strategy, the learning organization and development of ideas
It is quite apparent that if ST is to rework its’ sales strategy, it must at the same time introduce a new marketing policy, especially as regards honesty and credibility in questions about ingredients, production etc. It won’t be a problem for the company to introduce this, as item d assists in openness – even when we are talking about an aggressive strategy.
The involved planets are very powerful – but in a positive manner. Additionally one of them is strongly connected to what astrologers call the collective – many large groups of people – which is excellent when we work with communicating a message to the society. Public relations, advertising and so on is localized here.
This planet is located in the field of idea development meaning that the company has a good chance of generating and carrying out such actions.
There is also a very fine connection with the field of the learning organization, which points at involving the employees in the process, and through training and courses, they must learn new work methods as well as the ability to communicate well with the society – not leastly the company's customer groups..
With the influences at hand, focus should be on improving customer nursing, and improving employees communication resources. In short the external communication and here it would be a definite asset to start acknowledging the production methods used in the company as well as learning to be open about all questions connected to the company's outward image.

Corporate Culture – Human Resources
On account of the horoscope structure, the fields mentioned above are also strongly involved in all questions regarding possible restructuring of ST.
It is quite natural, since one wouldn't be able to execute changes in important areas without including these indefinable and psychologically-oriented areas.
Let us look at them!
The challenging aspects indicated, that the entire old company base should more or less be exchanged. This of course means that internally among the employees entirely new forms of cooperation and work attitudes are necessary. New types of groups, and perhaps even a division of the processes that have characterized former areas of responsibility.
In experience these areas are among the most difficult to work with, not to mention that they are also some of the most difficult to change. That is because we are now working with areas where the human factor is the most important - and this factor is quite unruly. Especially in this case, where transiting Pluto has a challenging aspect to the Sun, which activates the 4th house in the progressive horoscope. (For the astrologers)
The process we are discussing does not only demand changes in group activities or the group compositions, but may also require change in the physical structure of the company. That is possible logistics changes such as changing headquarters etc..
As I have mentioned several times earlier on, these examples only serve to acquaint the reader with the possible contents of a strategic plan. In real life, this discussion and the examples involved would be much more in-depth and comprehensive, in addition to requiring one or more consultations with the company's decision-makers.
In the following we will nonetheless once again ultra-briefly look at how timing has great influence on implementation.
The brief aspects determine when one should act in a given area, all the time with respect for the permanent aspects, which are still the most important.

Timing Focus
January 2004
§ 1 positive aspect. (Progressive Moon sextile Neptune)
§ 1 challenging aspect. (Transit Saturn conjunct Mars the last week of January)
The positive aspect activates the following signs and houses in the natal and the progressive horoscope:
Scorpio and Pisces. 6th, 8th and 12th houses.
Astrology is very often about timing the decision process - I can't stress this often enough. Therefore it is obvious that when a positive aspect appears, as in this case, one should act within the company areas that the aspect refers to.
In this case the company should initiate activities, reengineer or rationalize within the following areas:
1) Internal communication
2) Funding – creditor and debtor policy.
The most interesting of the influences in relation to the permanent influences in ST, is of course the internal communication process. If the company acts here, it will often also be able to involve the other areas. In any case this area offers resources to the company.
If one chooses to initiate the activities in the last week of January, one must expect slightly more difficulty because power games cannot be avoided during this specific time - also one of the ingredients of the permanent aspects.
My clients often ask me if they must execute and complete all possible decisions within the time frame of the aspect - in this case by the end of January.
No, this is not the case. In astrology the important thing is to initiate the decisions or activities at a time with positive influences. Such an action carries the positive energy. And of course you cannot complete thorough reengineering of the work methods, internal communication and other areas within a month. It takes much more time.
Let us not forget the other areas of the company, that are also activated, and which may also be taken on.

Beginning of February 2004 – April 1st , 2004
1 positive aspect.
§ Progressive Part of Fortune sextile MC/IC
This horoscope axis is mainly oriented towards to areas in the organization:
a) overall strategy
b) corporate culture/human resources and locations
It would probably be a natural continuation of the January activities to proceed with these and furthermore try to sketch a new strategy and overall company objective. This is also supported by the permanent challenging aspects, which more than indicated that new lines of thought are demanded.
Any other changes regarding corporate culture and locations could also be initiated now with good results.

April 1st , 2004 – July 1st , 2004
1 positive aspect.
§ Progressive Part of Fortune sextile MC continues until app. Middle of May, where it is taken over by progressive Moon trine MC – an aspect with similar qualities and effect.
2 challenging aspects.
§ Progressive Part of Fortune opposing the Ascendant and square the Moon.
The positive aspect involves the same company areas as in the former period.
The two challenging influences are related to the following:
a) management strategy
b) mergers, cooperation and external communication
c) financial strategy
d) corporate culture – locations
e) teamwork – IT
The positive aspect continues to provide the opportunity of changing the overall long-term strategy - actually it invites such actions - and the conditions related to corporate culture and locations provide the very best chances of allowing a transformation to a more fertile situation.
Otherwise, this period will be more difficult than the two others because of the two challenging influences.
The areas touched by the challenging aspects require new thinking by the company management. New thinking based in surfacing problems that can result in mandatory change of overall strategy, locations and corporate culture. As there are still available resources, these changes should still be possible. The company might experience implementation problems regarding decisions made in the previous period.
There is, though, another possibility. That on account of possible mergers, new business relation or similar decisions, it is necessary to change strategy, corporate culture and human resources.
Much depends on the plans and possibilities present in the company at the time - and the consequent decisions.

July 2004 – Beginning of August 2004
1 positive aspect:
§ Progressive Moon trine MC.
1 challenging aspect:
§ Progressive Part of Fortune square Uranus.
§ Furthermore transiting Saturn opposes MC the 3 first weeks of July.
This is a turbulent as well as an ambiguous time, because the aspects pull in two opposite directions. In spite of the presence of both a challenging aspect and a positive aspect, my evaluation is that the challenging aspect has the larger effect.
Therefore I will consider the positive aspect as resource potential - once the company has handled the influence of the challenging aspect.
The challenging aspect refers to these organizational areas:
a) development of ideas
b) innovation (closely connected to the above)
c) teambuilding – group formations
d) IT strategy
e) foreign circumstances
The challenging aspect is very turbulent, which indicates that all above areas may be influenced by unpredictable and indefinable negative energy – "struck-by-lightening" type of problems.
On the positive side the challenging aspects also offer development potential - so maybe one should give a little slack in the relevant areas - however without implementing new activities until later on.
But this energy-loaded aspect may easily generate quite new ideas which may later prove useful. The more untraditional one dares to be, the better. Loosen control are the operative words.
There is an area where one can plan for a long-term goal, based on the positive aspect, but one must still be careful because of the strong challenging aspect.
The positive aspect refers to:
a) overall strategy
b) human resources/corporate culture and locations.
Both influences can be used effectfully by contemplating the possible realization/implementation of strategy and logistics issues later this Fall.
If we look at the transit aspect which has effect during the first three weeks of July, this would be a good period to initiate any such contemplated plans.

Beginning of August 2004 – Middle of October 2004
3 brief aspects
2 positive, which are:
§ progressive Moon trine the Ascendant
§ progressive Part of Fortune trine the Sun.
1 challenging aspect:
§ cont. Aspect: progressive Part of Fortune square Uranus.
2 transiting aspects of a challenging nature.
§ Transiting Saturn opposing Saturn. From middle of September – middle of October.
§ Transiting Saturn square Venus. Two first weeks of October.
What I described in the former period regarding the challenging aspect to Uranus still applies. Meaning unrest, unpredictable happenings, lightning-quick restructuring. Please reread the text about this rather turbulent aspect, if necessary.
But, at the same time, two very positive progressive aspects appear. Particularly the one usually has the consequence that the company – in this case ST – moves into what could almost be described as a new era within the affected areas.
In this case, the areas are:
a) sales strategy
b) the learning organization
c) development of ideas
d) locations – human resources
in other words, significant company areas.
The other positive aspect is strongly related to:
a) mergers – new business relations
b) external communication
My interpretation of these very different influences is that one should continue a strategy of less control. Do no try to fit future overall goals into fixed and structured paths. As mentioned earlier - it simply isn't possible. The company will constantly, in this period, experience day-to-day changes relating to legislation, foreign activities, IT strategy and development of new ideas.
Do not let this advice lead to lethargy. Continue to develop the areas with positive resources.
The new era predicted by the aspect, will have its beginning around August/September.
If one is forced to make large and comprehensive decisions during this time, especially about overall strategy, mergers, business relations and finances, at least avoid the two last weeks of September and the two first of October where the transiting aspects are operative.

Middle of October 2004 – December 1st 2004
This is the single period of the annual prognosis, where the company only finds challenging aspects.
They are:
§ Progressive Part of Fortune square Mercury
§ Progressive Moon opposing the Sun.
The two transiting aspects mentioned in the former period still operate right through to December 1st . Transiting Saturn opposing Saturn and transiting Saturn square Venus.
Normally I advise my clients to keep a low profile during such period of challenging aspects. Such a time appeals to the introverted, reflective and philosophical. Don't launch new initiatives. This is just not the time.
However, in a company, things are somewhat different.
A company cannot lie still for 1½ month - not making the least decision. Still the above applies to the extent that it is possible for the company.
Any important decision must be postponed.
The information given by the aspects can luckily be used for other purposes than action.
Let's take a look at which areas the challenging aspects affect:
a) finances
b) sales strategy
c) development of ideas
d) the learning organization
e) internal communication
f) IT strategy
g) group formations/group activities
h) unfair competition
So far so good. I want to repeat that when a company's decision-makers order a strategy plan, this is usually made for at least two years.
This means, of course, that the company is aware of upcoming challenges many months before they actually appear. In consequence, they have the opportunity of taking precautions regarding the affected areas well in advance.
And this is basically the essence of any strategy. Not leastly astrological strategy. As is now obvious, this is the strength of astrology.
Who is able to tell a company that they will experience problems within certain areas within a certain period of time, plus that the company must under no condition react with activities. No one, right? As far as I know, astrologers are the only ones providing this sort of service.
I will not go into every aspects, as it will be too extensive, but I want to stress that within all areas the company should prepare measures to meet with the problems. This is one way to safeguard the company. The astrological analysis should here be used to minimize the damage.

December 2004
This month offers slightly more help than the previous weeks. The two challenging aspects from the middle of October up till December 1st are still active during December.
But a very strong positive aspect appears here at the end of the year, and it helps and supports new beneficial actions.
The new aspect is:
§ Progressive Part of Fortune sextile Saturn.
(The 2 transiting challenging aspects to Saturn are now complete out of the picture).
The positive aspect to Saturn affects:
a) long-term goals – overall strategy
b) innovation
c) foreign circumstance
d) credit conditions – funding
e) external communication – mergers, strategic alliances.
These very different aspects indicate, that one should still count on problems where the challenging aspects are operative, but that one can now start to think in long-term ways and start implementations in the above areas. Long-term strategy is connected to Saturn.
In this case we are talking about long-term strategy within the areas that Saturn rule in this individual horoscope, as shown earlier.
I hope that I through this description of important aspects in a strategic context have succeeded in giving the reader some insight in what astrological counseling can do for strategic planning.
In the following chapter we will examine one of the prime situations for an astrologer - the discipline called entrepreneurship.

[Karen Boesen]

Cleopatra,

I have just read your post - very quickly! I am out for the rest of day, but I will be back. Late tonight - if I am not to tired, or too drunk ;) Astrologers are used to be called alkoholics by the skeptics in my country.

Anyway, I shall be back at the latest tomorrow morning.

Best,

Karen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Lego A/S is founded in Billund, Denmark, on August 13, 1932 at 6.00. am accourding to the company itself. But it is a fictive date.

That's odd. In your book, you say nothing about the date being fictive:

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/kb-lego.gif

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Astrologers are used to be called alkoholics by the skeptics in my country.

You are most welcome to back that up with evidence.

[Karen Boesen]

Now I shall answer CFL once, even though I have told him yesterday, that I will not spend my time on his way of " debating"

Read page 112 in my book:
det tidspunkt osv. Danish.

Som jeg skrev tidligere, er der forskel på den danske og engelske udgave.

Du behøver ikke at skrive mere, jeg svarer dig ikke. Hverken i nat eller i morgen.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Now I shall answer CFL once, even though I have told him yesterday, that I will not spend my time on his way of " debating"

What is my "way of debating"? That I show you wrong?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Read page 112 in my book:
det tidspunkt osv. Danish.

Why don't you simply explain it?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Som jeg skrev tidligere, er der forskel på den danske og engelske udgave.

Why are the English and the Danish editions different? Will the Danish edition be changed?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Du behøver ikke at skrive mere, jeg svarer dig ikke. Hverken i nat eller i morgen.

If you like. No evidence of your claim that "Astrologers are used to be called alkoholics by the skeptics in my country".

[Darat]

Karen - if you go to another addition of your book you may like to correct two very basic errors that I spotted in the first couple of paragraphs of your "LEGO section".

First of all it should always be LEGO never "Lego". May seem a small point but it is of supreme importance for LEGO company.

Secondly Kjeld is not the son of Ole: Ole's son and successor was Godtfred, Kjeld is the grandson of Ole.

(Please go to http://www.lego.com/eng/info/default.asp?page=facts for verification.)

And finally one question - I take it the name of the company is unimportant or the fact that a company changed its name?

[Cleopatra]

We have some separate issues here:

1. Karen's issues with Claus amd Mogens that I am not sure that anybody here wants to comment.
2. We have to examine whether Karen in the horoscope she created for "Lego" industry makes a prediction that was proven by the events false and we have to examine her claims that the data might not be valid.

I will try to examine the second issue based on the two horoscopes Karen posted.

1. First of all Karen I see a contradiction in what you say regarding the the time of birth of Lego.When challenged by Claus you insisted that your data might not be accurate but on the other hand in your book where you use the chart of Lego to prove your theory about "Creative Tension" you base your analysis on the House System which is based solely on the birth time.

Allow me to explain a couple of things to those that they do not know Astrology so as they can judge by themselves what we are going to discuss. :)

A Birth Chart is a photo of the sky the moment a human being is born.In this picture we can see the position of the 9 planets the moment we are born and the way those 9 panets interact. Another basic feature that a birth chart must include is our Ascendant or Rising Sign that symbolizes the "image of the personality" that other people see.Also it's the point from which we calculate the Houses of the Birth Chart.

The Houses are the areas of the individual's Life where the energy of the planets and their interaction manifest their influence and powers. The Houses are 12 as many as the Signs.

I mentioned the above to show where the problem with Karen's claims is.

Karen insists that the time of Birth is eesential to have a full image of a chart and yet although she says that the data for Lego company is not verified she uses it for her calculations. Note that the example of Lego occupies a 14 pages analysis in her book and it was presented in a meeting of business men as proof of the benefits her method can provide to enterprizes. So, she considers the particular horoscope quite important otherwise she wouldn't be using it and she would use another example instead. I insist: The example of Lego is used to demonstrate her professional skills.

Karen for the reasons above you cannot seriously stick on the argument that you don't consider the data for the birth of Lego company accurate. You do. That's why you put yourself in the pan to post a whole analysis.

2.Does the chart analysis constitutes a prognosis?

In order to support that she hasn't make any prediction for Lego she was kind enough to post her Progresive analysis of another industry in order that we make the comparison.

Progressive analysis is not the only way to predict the future. The basic trends that show how the subject of our study will develop are shown in the birth chart.

Karen has done this repeatedly in the analysis of the birth chart. In the translation of her analysis that she posted here I didn't find anything that constitute a specific forecast.

Of course the fact that she doesn't make the prognossis in the book doesn't mean that she hasn't posted the explanation about Lego's financial problems that constitute prognossis.

According to the birth chart description Lego is an excellent company with full potential to grow.

I can't help but making the following comment though :)

Lego is 72 years old. It's in the period of Saturn.

Dearest Karen, with such a lousy Saturn in this Birth Chart what did those people expect? ;)

Recap:

Karen's detailed analysis that she has used it to advertize the quality of the counselling she provides proves that she has accepted the data of Lego's birth as valid.

So, her present claims that this data might not be valid cannot be taken seriously I am afraid. :)

[CFLarsen]

Karen,

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/kb-lego2.gif
I also want to point out, that none of the two companies we work with, the Scandinavian Tobacco Company and LEGO, are among my clients, which is why we cannot be quite sure of the time of establishment, since there were no possibilities of corrections.

The time we are using here is the time given by the companies regarded as the official time of establishment. But the reality can easily be another.

"Not quite sure". However, you rely on what they told you. And, as Cleopatra pointed out, you have accepted LEGO's birthday as correct.: You spend 14 pages arguing that it is.

Or, perhaps you are (now) saying that the LEGO horoscope in your book is not accurate, because it is based on a false birth time?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
"Not quite sure". However, you rely on what they told you. And, as Cleopatra pointed out, you have accepted LEGO's birthday as correct.: You spend 14 pages arguing that it is.


And not only that. If I understood well she presented this horoscope to a congress to advertize her professional skills. As we all understand somenody wouldn't jeopardize her professional reputation with an example that she didn't consider solid.

It doesn't make sense. That's all.

[The Bad Astronomer]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen

But of course we can discuss aspects etc in a fictive situation. We are astrologers. What is wrong with that?


I find this statement to be

1) astonishingly ironic,

2) a great summation of astrology, and

3) great fodder for sig material.

[Karen Boesen]

Cleopatra: " There is no doubt that the more clues you have the better predictions you can accomplish. The better in Astrology doesn't mean " more accurate", it means that you can specify better the time frame in which the events that are predicted will occur."

I don`t view astrology as a tool to tell people, what will OCCUR. To me the chart shows your possibilities. YOU are the one, who make the desions and the responsibility is yours too. A chart is not fatalistic.

I believe that we view forecast/predictions different! To me a preciction is not to tell a compagny that they will go bankrupt. week or two. :) I don`t work that way at all. Maybe they will maybe not, how should I know? But what I CAN tell them is, that they might get some problems in a week or two because of this or that. How they solve these problems is their own business. Depending on their ressources etc.

Reg. the LEGO chart: You have misunderstood! I have never presented the chart to anyone at all. I did not use it in my lecture either. Please reread my first mail. I said a few words to the journalist, who interviewed me after the lecture about the chart, because I had just written the chapter. He did not understand much, esp. not about the planets, but as he said, it was not important. Neither did the readers of the paper.

I could have choosen a chart, which I had worked out myself. In my own head. A chart, which had nothing to do with a " real" company. It is not the important issue here. The important thing to me was to show my readers, what a structural analysis can reveal. Nothing else. Maybe the founding data for LEGO is the 21st of March 1932 or maybe 1931. Not important for my purpose. LEGO themselves don`t know either, so I decided to accept the date, which they themselves regard as their founding date. Also because it fit my purpose of a chart for a toy-company.

To say that one predicts already when one mention that a company is a Leo, sounds extremely odd to me. Do you think that we can sell that prediction to anyone? :)

But I think that we have moved a very long way away from, what was discussed here originally.
The question was: " Did I change my mind about the chart, when Lego got problems? " No I did not!I have not given the company one thought since I wrote my chapter, nor have I ever worked out a predition, progressive horoscope. That should be enough answer to the question.

Reg. your view on business people, I don`t think that we work THAT primitive.

/Karen

[Karen Boesen]

Darat!

You are rigth, but as you say, it is not important in reg. to this issue. But thank you anyway.

/Karen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I don`t know if you have ever work with business astrology. I have for 32 years.

Not according to your own homepage:

"Mrs. Boesen has practised as a consultant astrologer since 1972 and as a business consultant for the last 16 years."
http://www.businessastrologers.com



What is the difference between a horoscope and a forecast?
How can you cast a horoscope for a company, if you do not know the time of "birth"?
How did you determine the time of "birth" for LEGO in the first place?
Why is the 1932 chart "very, very different" from the 2004 chart?
If you are "talking/writing about the chart of 1932", how can you describe LEGO in such glowing terms, when LEGO was not a success until more than 20 years later?
Why did you leave out the extra chapter in the Danish edition?
What use is a fictional horoscope? How does that show that astrology works? Would you describe that as being "serious"?
Have you ever moved the time of birth for a company and/or a person?
Are horoscopes that have their time of birth moved invalid or not?

[Kopji]

Karen
Hello, am enjoying the discussion.

I do not understand much about astrology, but I am a business leader in a small multinational company, we always welcome the opportunity to consider new or different ideas.

Something that global businesses struggle with on an everyday basis is communication involving vast differences in culture and time. Sunrise in Arizona is sunset in Europe. Companies, even LEGO, have a complex creative environment and are organized differently than you seem to imply. A successful company is “recreated” or “reborn” many times during its existence.

I am unclear how a horoscope sensitive to ‘four minutes’ could be accurate or remotely useful for a company that spans the globe, and whose ‘creative processes’ are essentially present at all hours of the day. (Teleconferences are hard enough to coordinate among time zones, what if we also needed to consider whatever time we chose might be inauspicious for one of the attendees?)

I suppose on-site astrologers at multiple key decision sites around the globe could solve the problem. First I would weigh the cost/benefit of consultants or extra ‘astrology’ department. Since astrology is not a core competency or focus of our business, I would probably 'source' the astrologers, or hire a consulting firm (perhaps yours?)

But how would I make that business case? I suppose I might take a look at other companies who attribute their success to the presence of an astrology staff. But businesses, despite our outwardly friendly and ever-helpful appearances, are quite comfortable knowing competitors are busy doing unproductive things and, well... ‘wasting their time’. So I need a better argument than business testimonials. If I were the owner or president and believed in astrology I could just ‘make it happen’, but companies seem to be run by ordinary people like me who apply a certain amount of skepticism and logic to important decisions.

“Correct” business decisions have a kind of clarity or logic to them. Here are some questions I might ask a potential business astrologer:

Q: Can a business horoscope work backwards? That is, could you look at a company’s profile “today” and accurately predict the exact time it was founded? To imply an ability to see where we should go implies a mirror ability to see where we were. This ability done as a blind test (you did not know the actual companies who the profiles were from) might build a good business case.

Q: Today’s businesses do more than ‘take over other businesses’. There are complicated ‘partner’ relationships among many firms that are short of a complete ‘takeover’. How would you go about providing advice about our partnering with another company, or more than one?

Q: What if another company discovered we used astrology to make our decisions? Would that not tend to increase the asking price for auspicious decision times, as in your example? Our prices would be always higher at the 'right' times. Wouldn't that give my competitors an advantage over me?

Q: How does astrology make us more successful as a company?

[CFLarsen]

Page 103-104:

"In reality, one must say that qua these aspects, the organization will have qualities handed on a platter, which it definitely needs. Especially because the position of the planets are of both concrete and creative nature, which is close to excellent. Nothing less."

Page 105:

"This company (LEGO) will always qua the positive aspects (Neptune in sextile to Venus) be able to develop and utilize the knowledge produced in the company."

This is not a prognosis? A horoscope? Please, Karen, you are using astrology to tell what will happen to the company!

[thatguywhojuggles]

Karen,

I am always trying to find simple but thorough ways of testing claims using the scientific method. I confess I know little to nothing about your profession. I was wondering if you were given the date/time/location of the birth of a company (but not its name,) would you be able to determine if that company is still in business? If you could, this would be an easy way to win Randi's money.

Also, could you explain to me what is the definition of the birth of a company.

Thanks

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I don`t view astrology as a tool to tell people, what will OCCUR. To me the chart shows your possibilities. YOU are the one, who make the desions and the responsibility is yours too. A chart is not fatalistic.

Yes I know the theory according to which we can change the patterns of our birth chart since this it shows us directions. It's a common belief between those who practice psychological astrology or astrology of the psychology to be exact.

I believe that we view forecast/predictions different! To me a preciction is not to tell a compagny that they will go bankrupt. week or two. :)
Even if you wanted to do that you couldn't do it. :) Modern Astrology doesn't promise that can do such things.Astrology can predict only pleasant events :)

Reg. the LEGO chart: You have misunderstood! I have never presented the chart to anyone at all. I did not use it in my lecture either. Please reread my first mail.

Thank you for correcting me. I read it in the commentary but you denied that indeed, I am sorry.

I could have choosen a chart, which I had worked out myself. In my own head. A chart, which had nothing to do with a " real" company. It is not the important issue here. The important thing to me was to show my readers, what a structural analysis can reveal. Nothing else. Maybe the founding data for LEGO is the 21st of March 1932 or maybe 1931. Not important for my purpose. LEGO themselves don`t know either, so I decided to accept the date, which they themselves regard as their founding date. Also because it fit my purpose of a chart for a toy-company.

I am sorry Karen but I have the minimum of intelligence. Why didn't you use a company out of your head with which you wouldn't have to deal with problems that the accuracy of the birth data pose? What astrologers and mediums have in common ( and I find it totally normal) is that they want publicity that's why the try to deal with cases everybody knows. That's why you chose to analyze a well known company that for many people is synonymous to success.

Also, allow me to remark that by claiming that you could create a chart out of your head to show the structural analysis to your reader doesn't do you much good. It is as if you admit that you make the data fit your theories. Do you see the problem here? Do you see the problem of credibility that you create with such claims?

To say that one predicts already when one mention that a company is a Leo, sounds extremely odd to me. Do you think that we can sell that prediction to anyone? :)

You didn't just say that the company is a Leo if you see the parts of your book that Claus quotes you say more than that.

You have two serious problems so far that you have to be careful with how to deal with them:

1. First you mentioned that you could create a horoscope out of your head in order to show your readers the structural analysis. Problem of credibility.

2. If you insist that a birth chart analysis doesn't reveal the future of the individual then you will be in trouble in the future because Danes read this forum.

Maybe admitting an unfortunate prediction is better but this is just my opinion.

The question was: " Did I change my mind about the chart, when Lego got problems? " No I did not!I have not given the company one thought since I wrote my chapter, nor have I ever worked out a predition, progressive horoscope. That should be enough answer to the question.

Not really and I will explain you why what you say doesn't make sense.
You chose to analyze a sucessful and well-known company. You chose to present your structural analysis because you knew the company's success ( until the moment you wrote the chapter) and you believed that the popularity of the company would verify automatically your claims.

Take your time to answer because many people here found the discussion interesting and posed many questions. :)

[Zep]

Karen Boesen: I believe that we view forecast/predictions different! To me a prediction is not to tell a company that they will go bankrupt. week or two. I don't work that way at all. Maybe they will maybe not, how should I know? But what I CAN tell them is, that they might get some problems in a week or two because of this or that. How they solve these problems is their own business. Depending on their resources etc.Karen, I'm confused by this paragraph. My confusion comes from this:

You tell us that you can tell a company that they might get some problems in the near future ("a week or two", in your example). That does sound very much like a prediction to me. Maybe you are not being absolutely pinpoint accurate, but overall, some change, some upheaval, some difference is predicted that will require possibly extraordinary corporate action. Would you agree that is what you are saying?

If so, then how can you deny, in the preceding sentences in the same paragraph, that you do not make predictions, such as major upheavals (bankruptcy within weeks, in your example - I would have thought that would be a corporate "problem" in most boardrooms)? Can you see my confusion?

And another point, if I may. I do understand what you are trying to say about the difference between a 1932 horoscope and a 1994 horoscope. The prospects for a company in 1994 may be vastly different from what they were in 1932. But this brings up the issue of how long any particular horoscope is valid for, so let me follow through with a line of thinking and then let you comment on it.

In 1932, a company horoscope indicates a particular outlook. In 1994, the future outlook is vastly different. In the 62 years in between, what caused the horoscopes to change? What would the outlook for that company have been in, say, 1940? Or in 1963? Or in 1980? What about the horoscopes for each and every year from 1932 to 1994? If the horoscopes change from year to year, or even month to month, what good are they for addressing corporate problems on that same time scale? Companies often have plans spanning more than 12 months, sometimes many years, but if the horoscope on which they take consideration changes in that time, what real confidence should they have in it as a corporate planning tool?

Oh, and CF, you promised...!

[Karen Boesen]

Dear Kopji,

thank you for your very interesting post.

I will suggest that you contact me by private mail: info@businessastrologers.com

I can see that you are living in the states, and the best way for you to get an answer to your many and intelligent questions, is to contact - on a personal level - one of colleques in your country.

I can see that the amount of very large questions is risen, and if this continues, I am afraid that I will have to close down my business. It will be far too timeconsuming for me.

I am looking forward to hear from you!

/Karen Boesen

[Karen Boesen]

Walter,

no, I would not be able to tell you from a chart, if a company is still in business or not.

I don`t want to sound arrogant, but there have already been answers to your question in reg. to the founding horoscope. Please reread the earlier post.

/Karen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Zep
Oh, and CF, you promised...!

I know. But my horoscope said I had to....

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I can see that the amount of very large questions is risen, and if this continues, I am afraid that I will have to close down my business. It will be far too timeconsuming for me.

But surely, Karen...these questions must have popped up before. It cannot be news to you. You must have heard them before, so why not simply answer them?

They go to the very heart of how astrology works, the very foundations of it, one might say.

[Karen Boesen]

[

".Astrology can predict only pleasant events :)"

KAREN: ?? If so, what do you do with the rest of the charts indications?
I could give you lots and lots of exampels of " not pleasant " predictions, which have been " filled in".

Sometimes you also experience that a magazine/newspaper or whatever it can be, don`t want to print an article, even though they have ordered it themselves, if the company, which you are dealing with prohibites it, because it describes their situation too well and the " preditions " are too " unpleasant "

"I am sorry Karen but I have the minimum of intelligence. Why didn't you use a company out of your head with which you wouldn't have to deal with problems that the accuracy of the birth data pose?"

KAREN: The problems have arisen, because the skeptics are lying. If they were honest people, there would never have been a problem. I discussed with my assistent, if I should find some charts, not reveal the data or the company`s name, but only print the article. We agreed on that most people prefer to read about a company, which they know about.


" What astrologers and mediums have in common ( and I find it totally normal) is that they want publicity that's why the try to deal with cases everybody knows. That's why you chose to analyze a well known company that for many people is synonymous to success."

Karen: No, you are wrong. You impute a lot of motives to me, which I do not have at all. I can assure you the I have had more than enough publicity in my lifetime. Not only in Denmark but around the globe. I often say no to interviews too, because it had long ago started to bore me.

"Also, allow me to remark that by claiming that you could create a chart out of your head to show the structural analysis to your reader doesn't do you much good. It is as if you admit that you make the data fit your theories. Do you see the problem here? Do you see the problem of credibility that you create with such claims? ""

KAREN: no, I am sorry, I cannot see that!


" You didn't just say that the company is a Leo.. "

Karen: true, I did not, you did! :)


" 2. If you insist that a birth chart analysis doesn't reveal the future of the individual then you will be in trouble in the future because Danes read this forum."

KAREN: Sorry, how?

" Maybe admitting an unfortunate prediction is better but this is just my opinion. "

KAREN: Excuse me, what unfortunate prediction are we talking about?

May I remind you of my motive to be here.

For some years now, I have experienced that some, of course not all skeptics, including Mr. Randi, have spread a lot of lies about me. I do not care about critizisme, when it comes to peoples opinion on astrology. For my sake they can state any meaning, they may have.
But we have a few skeptics, including Mr. Randi, who hates astrology among a lot of other topics of " alternative " character.
Hate combined with lack of honesty is a very dangerous and very subjective.

So I have been called criminal etc. by these few fanatics. I have invited Mr. Randi to come to Denmark to prove his accusations, but he has refused that. Sad!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I could give you lots and lots of exampels of " not pleasant " predictions, which have been " filled in".

Can you make up your mind? Are they predictions or not?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Sometimes you also experience that a magazine/newspaper or whatever it can be, don`t want to print an article, even though they have ordered it themselves, if the company, which you are dealing with prohibites it, because it describes their situation too well and the " preditions " are too " unpleasant "

This touches on the very ethics of astrology: How can you ethically defend that you analyze LEGO - a company that has not asked you to do so - and reveal things that are crucial to the company, something that influences their future?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
The problems have arisen, because the skeptics are lying. If they were honest people, there would never have been a problem. I discussed with my assistent, if I should find some charts, not reveal the data or the company`s name, but only print the article. We agreed on that most people prefer to read about a company, which they know about.

That should not be a problem: Just pick one of those companies that you have worked with. You know, those big Danish companies with thousands of employees.

Skeptics are lying? You are most welcome to show where.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
No, you are wrong. You impute a lot of motives to me, which I do not have at all. I can assure you the I have had more than enough publicity in my lifetime. Not only in Denmark but around the globe. I often say no to interviews too, because it had long ago started to bore me.

Not quite correct: You also turn reporters down, because you are afraid they will write the truth about you and astrology.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
no, I am sorry, I cannot see that!

You go back and change the data, so it fits your theory. Standard procedure in astrology.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Excuse me, what unfortunate prediction are we talking about?

LEGO. You predicted wrong.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I have invited Mr. Randi to come to Denmark to prove his accusations, but he has refused that. Sad!

That is a bald-faced lie, and you know it. It is you who refuse to meet him.

[Mogens Winther]

KB ; “Maybe the founding data for LEGO is the 21st of March 1932 or maybe 1931. Not important for my purpose. LEGO themselves don`t know either, so I decided to accept the date, which they themselves regard as their founding date. Also because it fit my purpose of a chart for a toy-company.”

<a href ="http://members.attcanada.ca/~ckuhne/legoinfo2.html">August 13, 1932 IS LEGOs founding date </a> - but sure, a family company like LEGO does not even know what year it was founded. Maybe they should hire an astrologer to help them out ?

But never mind – if your ISBA newsletter mentions that you have discussed moving the birth day of your own association (my letter above) in order to avoid weird Pluto induced experiences from skeptics, why should we at all take your astrology seriously ? :


Karen, I would like a Porsche and a Mercedes Benz – would you PLEASE move my birthday too ?




And how come, that you on On 10 January 2004 - 16:16 - even though your applied data were fictive - could “easily observe several reasons for firing the Lego company director” .

Do you make similar dramatic conclusions based on fictive data when selecting <a href ="http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Human%20Resources1%20english.htm">managers and employees
</a> at "your companies", of which – so you claim – some even 3 have in the order of 3-4000 employees ?


/ Mogens Winther

[Karen Boesen]

ZEP:

" You tell us that you can tell a company that they might get some problems in the near future ("a week or two", in your example). That does sound very much like a prediction to me. Maybe you are not being absolutely pinpoint accurate, but overall, some change, some upheaval, some difference is predicted that will require possibly extraordinary corporate action. Would you agree that is what you are saying?"

KAREN: yes, that is, what I am saying. I did not state earlier, that I did not predicte. I say that I did not give absolute predictions, which means that you are making a prophecy about the Day of Judgement -so to speak.
When you tell a company or a person that or this aspect does arrive, and that means so and so, they have the opportunity to take action. They can change plans, try to minimize the "damage", profit from the aspect or they can be prepared, change their attitude etc. etc.
As mentioned earlier, I am not the one, who choose the strategy, the company or whoever it is, do that themselves.

" And another point, if I may. I do understand what you are trying to say about the difference between a 1932 horoscope and a 1994 horoscope. The prospects for a company in 1994 may be vastly different from what they were in 1932. But this brings up the issue of how long any particular horoscope is valid for, so let me follow through with a line of thinking and then let you comment on it.

In 1932, a company horoscope indicates a particular outlook. In 1994, the future outlook is vastly different. In the 62 years in between, what caused the horoscopes to change? What would the outlook for that company have been in, say, 1940? Or in 1963? Or in 1980? What about the horoscopes for each and every year from 1932 to 1994? If the horoscopes change from year to year, or even month to month, what good are they for addressing corporate problems on that same time scale? Companies often have plans spanning more than 12 months, sometimes many years, but if the horoscope on which they take consideration changes in that time, what real confidence should they have in it as a corporate planning tool?"

KAREN: The founding chart, which I worked on in reg. to LEGO, or any other company for that matter, never changes. It is the same through all the years - unless some big changes happen in the life of the company.
The founding chart gives you an idea about the ressources, problems etc., which the company might have to deal with.

The prediction/progressive chart changes all the time. In fact every minute due to the movement of the planets/stars. It is compared to the founding chart, and it tells the owner, what aspects in the founding chart are affected for the time being. What that implies, what you might be able to do about it etc. etc.

Normally you work out a prognosis for 2 - 3 years, containing all the different periods etc. written reports. Then you can use the charts implication to work out a strategy plan. Nothing strange in that. :)

/Karen

Oh, and CF, you promised...! [/B][/QUOTE]

[Karen Boesen]

MW:

" August 13, 1932 IS LEGOs founding date - but sure, a family company like LEGO does not even know what year it was founded. "

KAREN: Right! I am sorry, but that is how it is!


MW : "But never mind – if your ISBA newsletter mentions that you have discussed moving the birth day of your own association (my letter above) in order to avoid weird Pluto induced experiences from skeptics, why should we at all take your astrology seriously ? :"

KAREN: Who has claimed that you shall? Do as you like! Not of my business.


MW : " Karen, I would like a Porsche and a Mercedes Benz – would you PLEASE move my birthday too ? "

KAREN: Do you really think that cars, boats etc. will make you happy? The other day you send a photo of your yacht. Very impressive. Or is it the yacht of the bank? Well, never mind, I belive it would be a good idea for you to change your character
anyway. Especially your Neptune must be under huge pressure.

MW : "And how come, that you on On 10 January 2004 - 16:16 - even though your applied data were fictive - could “easily observe several reasons for firing the Lego company director” ."

KAREN: you forget the little word: IF. You can select 10 different charts, and you might be able to find " fyring aspect " in all of them. Even though they have nothing to do with LEGO. You cannot separate a chart from it owner.

MW : " Do you make similar dramatic conclusions based on fictive data when selecting managers and employees
at "your companies", of which – so you claim – some even 3 have in the order of 3-4000 employees ?"

KAREN: as I have told you earlier. I now have one more big company. The 3 ones, were the ones I had back in 2000/1.
The business is expanding dear!

/Karen;)

[Karen Boesen]

Oh, by the way I forgot to mention, that some of the leaders of my latest - very big company - will participate as case stories in my next book. Coaching!

They have given my work 13 with an arrow upwards! The highest - almost impossible to accomplish.

Isn`t that great?!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Oh, by the way I forgot to mention, that some of the leaders of my latest - very big company - will participate as case stories in my next book. Coaching!

They have given my work 13 with an arrow upwards! The highest - almost impossible to accomplish.

Isn`t that great?!

What company is this? What are the names of these people?

[Mogens Winther]

Concerning KB-s claim, that LEGO does not even know what year it was founded.

However - this does not keep KB away from speculating in minutes - maybe LEGO was born a few minutes earlier than August 13, 1932 at 6.00 - because this would make LEGO a Double LEO :


KB-s book : "The horoscope ascendant is placed zero degrees in Virgo. We may suspect good old Ole Kirk Christiansen for starting his company a little before 6 am, so that the company would be a so-called double-Leo (with both the Sun and the ascendant in Leo) but we will never know."

But never mind, if it does not fit, she will move the birth day/year anyway.



The only bad aspect of all this heavenly nonsense is the fact that this astrology is applied to innocent people, people who have not asked for this.

Newspaper articles have given interviews with one of KB-s furious victims, and in addition revealed similar cases with Karens collegues : job applicants were rejected, if they refused to accept an astrological investigation.

The AER - a Danish ethical council - has adressed this problem in earlier reports, as well as one workers union.

In addition, this problem has been discussed in Danish Parlament - here businessastrology was forbidden in public and semipublic companies.

During that parlament discussion, the minister of work pointed out that this kind of astrology, where astrologers do ask employees for birth data - according to her best estimates is a violation of Danish Laws against racism.

Besides, as described before - this is a violation of international ILO rules on workers protection.

But astrologers do not care about such legal/moral problems - as mrs Boesen wrote so wonderful on the Danish Astrologers Board May 2003 :

“I say/write whatever suits me, and I won't present arguments for any of it.”



/MW

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
ZEP:

" You tell us that you can tell a company that they might get some problems in the near future ("a week or two", in your example). That does sound very much like a prediction to me. Maybe you are not being absolutely pinpoint accurate, but overall, some change, some upheaval, some difference is predicted that will require possibly extraordinary corporate action. Would you agree that is what you are saying?"

KAREN: yes, that is, what I am saying. I did not state earlier, that I did not predicte. I say that I did not give absolute predictions, which means that you are making a prophecy about the Day of Judgement -so to speak.
When you tell a company or a person that or this aspect does arrive, and that means so and so, they have the opportunity to take action. They can change plans, try to minimize the "damage", profit from the aspect or they can be prepared, change their attitude etc. etc.
As mentioned earlier, I am not the one, who choose the strategy, the company or whoever it is, do that themselves.

" And another point, if I may. I do understand what you are trying to say about the difference between a 1932 horoscope and a 1994 horoscope. The prospects for a company in 1994 may be vastly different from what they were in 1932. But this brings up the issue of how long any particular horoscope is valid for, so let me follow through with a line of thinking and then let you comment on it.

In 1932, a company horoscope indicates a particular outlook. In 1994, the future outlook is vastly different. In the 62 years in between, what caused the horoscopes to change? What would the outlook for that company have been in, say, 1940? Or in 1963? Or in 1980? What about the horoscopes for each and every year from 1932 to 1994? If the horoscopes change from year to year, or even month to month, what good are they for addressing corporate problems on that same time scale? Companies often have plans spanning more than 12 months, sometimes many years, but if the horoscope on which they take consideration changes in that time, what real confidence should they have in it as a corporate planning tool?"

KAREN: The founding chart, which I worked on in reg. to LEGO, or any other company for that matter, never changes. It is the same through all the years - unless some big changes happen in the life of the company.
The founding chart gives you an idea about the ressources, problems etc., which the company might have to deal with.

The prediction/progressive chart changes all the time. In fact every minute due to the movement of the planets/stars. It is compared to the founding chart, and it tells the owner, what aspects in the founding chart are affected for the time being. What that implies, what you might be able to do about it etc. etc.

Normally you work out a prognosis for 2 - 3 years, containing all the different periods etc. written reports. Then you can use the charts implication to work out a strategy plan. Nothing strange in that. :)

/KarenThank you for your information on this, Karen. But I remain confused even more so now. I hope you can help me understand.

In your first point (about "aspects" of horoscopes) you have confirmed that you are indeed seeing possible future events based on current data (i.e. the stars, planets, etc). In fact, you go on to use the word "prediction" for this yourself later. However, if a company or indeed a person chooses to take actions that avoid those potential problems, and indeed nothing bad eventuates, then the aspects' view of the future must surely have been flawed - what actually happened is not what the aspects indicated at that point in time. Is that not so?

And the same goes the other way, surely: aspects indicating a "positive" future may be overturned by the company or person making poor current decisions that lead to negative results for them. And I'm not referring specifically to LEGO here - that is too controversial. I'm just being generalised.

Altogether then, we would have four different situations: (a) the aspects are good and the results turn out good, (b) aspects good, results bad, (c) aspects bad, results good, and (d) aspects bad, results bad. That is, the aspects match actual events 50% of the time, all other influences not being considered. Which is exactly the same as flipping a coin heads or tails. Would you not agree? If not, why not?

And here's my dilemma: If I knew nothing about the future at all and I was about to make a momentous decision, would the results be any different if I did or did not know what my horoscope aspects were? Would I be any better off flipping a coin? And how do you think we could test if astrology is better or worse than chance?

With regard to the second point, do I now understand that you are saying that each horoscope made after the founding one is used only to show "variances" from the founding chart?

Then you introduced the qualifier to that statement, of "...unless some big changes happen in the life of the company." OK, what qualifies as "big"? I gather founding, bankruptcy and winding-up are "big", but what else is in this context? A record profit year? A float on the stock-market? Something less serious, like a new boss at the helm? I'm trying to get an understanding of what would be momentous enough to cause a change in the "founding horoscope".

And I thank you for the confirmation that horoscopes for a single entity change from minute to minute, although this simply adds to the confusion for me. What you seem to be saying is that a horoscope is only valid until the next horoscope is done, either minutes later or years later. Which would suggest that if you didn't like the horoscope that you received at any time, all you need do is wait a few minutes and get another one. And if you don't like that one, keep on waiting and getting new ones until you DO like one of them. Is that not so?

Thank you in advance, Karen.

CF - please let us talk with Karen also. We have not met her before like you have.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Zep
CF - please let us talk with Karen also. We have not met her before like you have.

Nobody is stopping either you or her.

[Karen Boesen]

Zip,

I am sorry. No, I cannot help you any further. Would be too timecosuming. Please reread my post - or maybe even better: read some books on astrology.

CF has not met me and I thank to good that because of that I have not met him either. Hopefully this situation will continue in future. :)

/Karen

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Zip,

I am sorry. No, I cannot help you any further. Would be too timecosuming. Please reread my post - or maybe even better: read some books on astrology.

CF has not met me and I thank to good that because of that I have not met him either. Hopefully this situation will continue in future. :)

/Karen Karen, your books are not available in Australia (where I live) as far as I can find out, and they are EXTREMELY expensive to buy in from America. So I really would appreciate a response from you to my questions here on this forum. I was so looking forward to your answers. It would be a pity of there were none.

And we have plenty of time here to continue discussions - as much time as you need. You can do it in small portions if you think that it is too big to be done in one chunk. I don't mind, really!

And as you see, we are trying to keep Claus quiet so you can have your own say here uninterrupted and in your own words.

Please?

Zep

[Karen Boesen]

Zep:

you can buy my book on the following web:

www.businessastrologers.com

Literature/ Management in Astrological Perspective.

There are also a lot of other interesting titles, which might answer a lot of your questions.

Best,

Karen

[Karen Boesen]

MW: " Concerning KB-s claim, that LEGO does not even know what year it was founded.

However - this does not keep KB away from speculating in minutes - maybe LEGO was born a few minutes earlier than August 13, 1932 at 6.00 - because this would make LEGO a Double LEO :



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KB-s book : "The horoscope ascendant is placed zero degrees in Virgo. We may suspect good old Ole Kirk Christiansen for starting his company a little before 6 am, so that the company would be a so-called double-Leo (with both the Sun and the ascendant in Leo) but we will never know." "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KAREN: right! Again, what is your problem?

MW: "The AER - a Danish ethical council - has adressed this problem in earlier reports, as well as one workers union. "

KAREN: You forget to tell the readers that AER is a cristian organisatión with no authority at all. They are fighting everything, which is not in the bible. Have you become a beliver?

MW: "In addition, this problem has been discussed in Danish Parlament - here businessastrology was forbidden in public and semipublic companies.

During that parlament discussion, the minister of work pointed out that this kind of astrology, where astrologers do ask employees for birth data - according to her best estimates is a violation of Danish Laws against racism. "

KAREN: No, business astrology has never been forbidden in the Danish Parliament! If so, I would not be a business astrologer, would I?
What was said by the minister ( 6 -7 years ago )was, that the Parliament had no intention of changing the law, because of the skeptics.
There already was a law - against racisme . Because of that you could not select applicants in public offices etc. Nothing else!


MW: "Besides, as described before - this is a violation of international ILO rules on workers protection."

KAREN: well, to be honest, I never work with workers. ILO is an organisation for people with similar interests - nothing else.

MW: "But astrologers do not care about such legal/moral problems ..."

KAREN: what legal problems? Are you insinuating that I am violiting the laws? If so - you better have to pass on this information.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Zep:

you can buy my book on the following web:

www.businessastrologers.com

Literature/ Management in Astrological Perspective.

There are also a lot of other interesting titles, which might answer a lot of your questions.

Best,

Karen Karen, I'm a bit disappointed and surprised.

Please, I would much rather that you gave me some concise answers to my questions here, and not try to sell me your books on the Internet. Wouldn't you be annoyed too if I tried to sell you MY books on the Internet as an answer to any questions you may have of me? Would that be fair?

And you are saying that these books might answer a lot of my questions? Did you not write them yourself? If so, surely you would be aware of whether they answer my questions or not? I'm happy if you give me short answers here to my longish questions, so that it doesn't inconvenience you.

I know! Would you like me to restate my questions in a much shorter and clearer fashion so that you can answer them more easily?

I'm trying to help here.

Please?

Zep

[Mogens Winther]

KAREN: No, business astrology has never been forbidden in the Danish Parliament!

Negative. Read the ministers declaration clearly. As she pointed out – the application of irrational methods like astrology in public/semipublic companies is not allowed due to Danish Law of public administration.

And as the minister pointed out too – in private companies, this will await a court descision , however she could not see how astrologers could ask for place of birth without violating the antiracial descrimination laws.

These laws directly forbid asking job applicants for their birthplace / national origin !

Sure, Karen, its all available on the parlament pages .

<KAREN: well, to be honest, I never work with workers. ILO is an organisation for people with similar interests - nothing else.
Negative. ILO is an international and widely accepted all-workers protection organisation, the declarations by this association have been adopted by most European contries.

And much to the dismay of Karens association - the ISBA – on June 08, 2001 - the Finnish State President TARJA HALONEN as well as Minister of Work - Tarja Filatov - on behalf of the parlament officially signed Law #477/ 2001 - concerning worker protection.

This new law demanded that employers only apply trustworthy test methods while e.g. interviewing job applicants.
The official supplements to this law directly mention that

"graphological, astrological and similar test methods have to be abandonned."

In addition - this Finnish authorities refer to directly to the internationally accepted declaration by the ILO – according to which : no test is to " be conducted against the worker's will . ..... " that these tests have to be "validated..." - and .... " In this regard, the use of astrology, graphology and the like should be precluded. "

Maybe, with a bit of luck - this law regulation could become an ethical standard across all EU ?

Please, what do your falling stars predict in that aspect, Karen ?


KAREN: “what legal problems? Are you insinuating that I am violiting the laws? If so - you better have to pass on this information.”

Sure ... Just one example -according to Danish Trade Act § 2 section 1 and 4 : – all commercial claims have to be validated on demand.

Put another way, if an astrologers sells a horoscope and do claim it is more than nonsense, then it is the astrologer who has to prove this.

On several occasions, you have been asked to present us this law demanded documentation, to show, that your business astrology works.

You have so far avoided the Randi test, and even worse - you have in full public admitted the documentation that your product actually works is not possible, and still may not be possible “even for centuries ahead”.

How come, that you do not care about these moral/legal problems ?

/MW

[Karen Boesen]

To my dear and oldest friend with a skeptic mind, Mogens!

I shall not go through all your nonsense. I belive that we have heard this again and again and again for at least 500 times.

You have tried so hard to make me a "criminal", and you have always lost. You have gone to the authorities and claimed that I did not protect my clients employees accouring to Danish law. Soon after I got the authorities green stampel ( as we say ), that everything was fine and according to the law. Yes of course, what else?

The tax-authorieties right me: businessastrologer etc. That is also
the green stampel. When they have recognised your business, you are legal.

I have even won a case in court against a client, who did not pay my fee.
The judge did not for one second doubt, that an astrologers client should pay his fee. The judge did not question my " products " either.

Then you start to speak of the law in German. Your favorite country. Maybe it is different down there, maybe not. I am not a German, I am a Dane.
But we know very well that you personally is extremely fond of everything from Germany. You phone astrologers, who are producing charts via a computer. Ordering a chart for your belowed grandfather Josef Mengele ( one of the worst warcriminal in European history this century ). When a maschine cannot discover that your grandfather was a monster, you go to the press and try to persuade them to write that astrology is rubbish, because it does not give credit to your " strange " family.

But after all, we still watch your - all your defeats with a smile. We have even started to feel sorry for you. Think that you deserve som applaus from life.

What is your next - intelligent - attack? Can hardly wait. A good laugh is always appreciated.

[Karen Boesen]

"The tax-authorieties right me: businessastrologer etc. That is also
the green stampel..."

The authorities write me - sorry

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
The tax-authorieties right me: businessastrologer etc. That is also the green stampel. When they have recognised your business, you are legal.

Wrong. That only means you have found to be liable to pay tax, by - in your case - providing a service. The Tax & Customs department does not validate the services, it merely taxes them.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I have even won a case in court against a client, who did not pay my fee. The judge did not for one second doubt, that an astrologers client should pay his fee. The judge did not question my " products " either.

What was the case, a client doesn't paying for the service, or whether astrology works or not?

It is not either the Tax & Customs or the courts who make the laws, Karen. If you fantasize about being validated this way, you are wrong.

You know this, of course, being a Dane. But honesty is not a character trait of yours, is it? Guess you must have a particular shaped face....

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Then you start to speak of the law in German. Your favorite country. Maybe it is different down there, maybe not. I am not a German, I am a Dane.

Mogens lives very near the border to Germany, as you well know. It is not surprising that he refers to it so much.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
But we know very well that you personally is extremely fond of everything from Germany. You phone astrologers, who are producing charts via a computer. Ordering a chart for your belowed grandfather Josef Mengele ( one of the worst warcriminal in European history this century ). When a maschine cannot discover that your grandfather was a monster, you go to the press and try to persuade them to write that astrology is rubbish, because it does not give credit to your " strange " family.

Yes, the Mengele fiasco: A Danish astrologer could not detect mass murderer tendencies in a person. Neither can you: You appointed a murderer for a high-ranking job...

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
But after all, we still watch your - all your defeats with a smile. We have even started to feel sorry for you. Think that you deserve som applaus from life.

What is your next - intelligent - attack? Can hardly wait. A good laugh is always appreciated.

"He who laughs last, laughs best."
Danish proverb.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Mr. Brown!



The founding chart is called ( by me ): a structurel analysis.
To creat this correctly it requires the following:

1) founding date and year

Hello Karen, sorry to intrude on this dialogue

I have a few questions:

Using which calender? Jullian?
If so, does the founding date and reading take into account leap years? This would be interesting to know because a calender (its months, weeks and any modifications to account for leap years) are human constructs (as are all units of measure regarding time, distance, location).
The earth's orbit and the earth's rotation are rather uncooperative and do not take into account the Human need for order and nice time blocks. What model, tools or formulae are you using to negotiate the inherent difficulties of attaining accuracy as related to time and place?


2) time of founding ( does not excist ) Oh? No paper work? No bank / mortgage/ insurance records? No records saved and filed by Board of Governors over the decades? Odd, but then again I am not familiar with Danish law or the workings of Danish corperations.

3) longitude and latitude of founding. longitude and latitude are helpful human constructs eg. for navigation. How is the application of this human construct relevant to a reading?

As mentioned in my book, I have settled on the founding time 6 in the morning. Might be wrong. We don`t know.


Is this GMT or GMT +/- ? Does this founding time make use of a tool like a cesium atomic clock or other time keeping device?

Oh, you don't actually know; so this is not verifiable. Did you choose this time because it conveniently accomodates your conclusion?

the company Lego had an excellent horoscope


As I write:

" The founding time defines many important point in the horoscope: not only the Ascendant, but also the houses. One must work with correct data.
This is stressed even more when you forecast. If the founding time is just four minutes off, the analysis is one year off the mark"

Ah, so potentially, if the analysis is "off the mark" one could just input different numbers to support the outcome? This sounds very flexible. Which data would constitute the variables in this equation? Which data the constants?



It will take a lot of time Mr. Brown to explain, what is the different between a structural analysis and a forecast. .....

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Using which calender? Jullian?
If so, does the founding date and reading take into account leap years? This would be interesting to know because a calender (its months, weeks and any modifications to account for leap years) are human constructs (as are all units of measure regarding time, distance, location).
The earth's orbit and the earth's rotation are rather uncooperative and do not take into account the Human need for order and nice time blocks. What model, tools or formulae are you using to negotiate the inherent difficulties of attaining accuracy as related to time and place?

Here is an article about that problem:

Time is not on Astrology's side (http://www.skepticreport.com/astrology/astrotime.htm)

[Kopji]

Hi Karen,
Thanks for your response.

My questions seemed like casual "initial contact" questions that could be asked by any businessperson with international interests. The questions are of general interest, and responding here is an opportunity to show eagerness to demonstrate expertise and build credibility with at least one potential customer.

[Karen Boesen]

Kopji,

I agree with you. That is how things should be among normal people, but the reason I went into this Forum, is because I am not dealing with normal and decent people, when it comes to the skeptics, which I have mentioned in my first letter.

IF I seriously answer yours ( or any other persons ) questions, I will shortly find my answers manipulated, twisted into unrecognizability, lied about etc. Like the experiene I have had resently with Mr. Randi and Mr. Winther.

So, I am sorry that I cannot help you!

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Kopji,

I agree with you. That is how things should be among normal people, but the reason I went into this Forum, is because I am not dealing with normal and decent people, when it comes to the skeptics, which I have mentioned in my first letter.

IF I seriously answer yours ( or any other persons ) questions, I will shortly find my answers manipulated, twisted into unrecognizability, lied about etc. Like the experiene I have had resently with Mr. Randi and Mr. Winther.

So, I am sorry that I cannot help you!

Sincerely,

Karen Boesen

I am sorry Karen but I feel tad offended. I don't know your past with Claus and Mr. Randi. I am lawyer and my experience has taught me that nobody argues alone but this is not the question.

You joined the forum where members and friends of JREF post and debate claims and opinions. The majority, 9 to 10 people treated you with politeness and tried to make you feel at home.

I am sure that during the years that you practice Astrology you have come up with people who question the astrological claims. Some of us before becoming skeptical we have spent time trying to understand what this all about and you come now and announce to us that your opinions will be twisted and mocked by us and out of principle?

Well, I feel offended. I have spent time to read your posts carefully and I tried to do my best to open a channel of dialogue as many others did.

Please retract those comments and specify if you are willing to discuss. Why did you come here? Even if you came here just to expose Mr. Randi and the Danes you will have to answer to our questions and let us decide whether you are right or not.

[Zep]

Hello again, Karen.

I note that my repeated requests for you to openly answer my questions in your own way and in your own words seems to have fallen on deaf ears. That seems to be a shame, as this is precisely the place where you will get a fair hearing from skeptics across the world.

I can assure you: on this forum it is considered extremely bad manners to "twist people's words into something else". We will not stand for it among ourselves, and we will not stand anyone doing that to you either. We deal in facts here, and people who bring outstanding claims will be required to bring their evidence, and that applies especially to us skeptics.

What is more, although we all have our own pet prejudices, we consider it a mark of true skepticism to show fairness to another person's view, and to concede that we may be wrong when the evidence proves it.

Which is why we do research on everyone's claims and ask so many questions! That is how we try to arrive at the facts of anything. We ask questions, we seek the evidence, and examine it rigorously.

As you can see from above, there are a number of people here who are extremely interested in what you have to say, and are prepared to engage in extended, intelligent, polite debate with you. I do hope you take advantage of their eagerness.

So shall we be addressing my outstanding questions at any time?

many thanks
Zep

[Blondin]

I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.
Karen, does your Business Astrology company make recommendations about who should be employed based on applicants horoscopes? You are attempting to influence peoples' livlihoods or job prospects based on the postitions of celestial bodies at the time of their birth? :confused:

[Karen Boesen]

Cleopatra,

I am sorry if you feel offended. Of course my mail was not addressed to you, but I can see from your threads, that English is not your first language either, so maybe we have misunderstood each other.

Anyway: the first thing I want to say is the following:

I have "met" some of the skeptics, who belive in Randi and his circus! They have been very nice, very fair and very honest! They have treated me ( an astrologer ) with politeness and intelligence.
IF anyone feel that I have addressed them with my former mail reg. manipulation etc. I apologise for that. My writing ONLY concern the following people:

James Randi
Mogens Winther
Claus Flodin Larsen.

But I am sorry Cleopatra, I cannot let you - or anyone else for that matter - decide whether I am right or wrong.

I will in the following use some words/a language, which are not at all polite, so maybe I will be expelled from this Forum. :) I shall try to live with that.
My experiences with the above mentioned " skeptics "are very " bad "

Mr. Winther has pursued me for years. Unfortunately for this person, he is not very talented, and normally he ends up making all of us laugh.
But anyway, if I state a point in the forum for excampel, he will take it, manipulate it, withdraw it from its context and pass it on to journalist, the public, the Danish website for skeptics etc. etc.
As mentioned in my first mail, even scientist, who are skeptics themselves don`t agree with his methods.
Mr. Winther is, like James Randi and Claus Flodin Larsen, very involved in skepticim EMOTIONALLY! Not because they are rationel thinkers.
As Mr. Randi says: " maybe astrology or any other topic that he does not like, will be able to prove its validity in future. He may not LIKE it, but he will have to accept it. "
That is for me a very emotionally and subjective statement to announce. NOT a statement for a scientist.

As to Mr. Randi I regard his as a swindler. To be honest. He has appeared on Danish TV several times, calling me and other " alternative thinkers " for criminals etc.
I have asked Mr. Randi to come to Denmark to prove his statement. Best in 2005.

I have suggested a panel. Mr. Randi can use his wittnesses for proving his statement. On the other hand I myself will try to prove that Mr. Randi is a swindler, and that the circus he is running with his 1,1 million dollars is a fake. I will take in witnesess from all over the world too. Written statements etc. that sort of things take times. Because of that 2005 is the best time.
Mr. Randi has refused that!!!!!! Why??
I have read an interview, in which Mr. Randi is saying that he always has a way out, when he is asked, what he will do, if anyone passes his test. Does not seem very honest to me.

Let me give you an exampel. We had a member in ISBA, he is still a member, who was very eager to be tetsted. He studied economy at the university of Vienna. He started to negotiate with Randi and Winther ( where did he come from? Why is he involved? )

This business astrologer experienced all the same, which I have experienced with Randi and Winther. They were extremely destructive. For excampel our member wrote Randi, that he would like to get a garantee from the bank, saying that the 1,1 mill. dollars actually were availably IF he passed the test.
Mogens Winther wrote back: " I can see, that you have asked for money in advance!"
At last our member gave up, even though he had worked out a very good testmaterial. After that Winther started to pursue him at his university in Vienna. But of course he passed his examination and got his degree.

Claus Flodin Larsen is regarded as a total psychopate in Denmark. Noone never enter any discussion with him. Even the skeptics were about to expell him from their discussion board, because of his behaviour.
CFl attacks people pfysical if they don`t agree with him. No need to say more.

I think that I would be able to write a book about my experiences with these sick people. No need to spend your time on that. But I wonder, what can be the reason for their hate.

Well anyway, I want to thank the participants of this board, except for the 3 people mentioned above, for their kindness and civilised behaviour.
I will not participate anymore. Maybe I will not be allowed to either. If I come back, I will only return because Mr. Randi is printing more lies about me.

Yours sincerely,

Karen Boesen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Claus Flodin Larsen is regarded as a total psychopate in Denmark. Noone never enter any discussion with him. Even the skeptics were about to expell him from their discussion board, because of his behaviour.
CFl attacks people pfysical if they don`t agree with him. No need to say more.

Except, perhaps, that you are a liar?

Fascinating to see how you argue, Karen.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
[BClaus Flodin Larsen is regarded as a total psychopate in Denmark. Noone never enter any discussion with him. Even the skeptics were about to expell him from their discussion board, because of his behaviour.
CFl attacks people pfysical if they don`t agree with him. No need to say more. [/B]
Now, that's funny. I can picture Claus as a berserker Viking, wading into groups of asstrologers wielding a huge doulbe-bladed axe, roaring, "AAARGH!" or whatever the berserkers roared.
And then visiting a bookstore.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Now, that's funny. I can picture Claus as a berserker Viking, wading into groups of asstrologers wielding a huge doulbe-bladed axe, roaring, "AAARGH!" or whatever the berserkers roared.
And then visiting a bookstore.

Right on.

[Zep]

Karen Boesen: Well anyway, I want to thank the participants of this board, except for the 3 people mentioned above, for their kindness and civilised behaviour.
I will not participate anymore. Maybe I will not be allowed to either. If I come back, I will only return because Mr. Randi is printing more lies about me.

Yours sincerely,

Karen BoesenKaren,

Thank you for your extended description of what you feel has happened between yourself and other astrologers and Mr Randi.

I'm very surprised that you feel you you will be kicked off this forum for saying what you have said. Why would you think that? What you have said is perfectly all right to say - it is your viewpoint and we respect it. No-one has asked for you to be removed, no-one wants to see you go, there is no discussion that we can see here even hinting that you are not welcome here (banning is a very serious step for our forum, very difficult to make happen, and is invariably preceded by much discussion). So please feel free to stay and speak your mind. If you leave, it will only be you who will be taking yourself away, not us sending you away.

And as for your points, let us examine them.

KB: On the other hand I myself will try to prove that Mr. Randi is a swindler, and that the circus he is running with his 1,1 million dollars is a fake.Response: You can confirm the US$1 million is real and available for yourself at any time. Other people have, entirely to their satisfaction.http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account," as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail.
KB: Let me give you an exampel. We had a member in ISBA, he is still a member, who was very eager to be tetsted. He studied economy at the university of Vienna. He started to negotiate with Randi and Winther...What was the name of this applicant, what did he claim to be able to do, and when did he apply?

Would it happen to be Manfred Zimmel (http://www.amanita.at/)? The person whose Disclaimer on his very own website says:I do not guarantee the accuracy, adequacy, or completeness of any information and I am not responsible for any errors or omissions.Surely that is not comforting for his clients. Also, Manfred's doctoral thesis seems to have gone missing from the ISBA and his own websites - do you have a copy of it available?

[Kopji]

On the Manfried site I ran across a lot of gushing about how the Astrology calculations predicted an upswing in silver, and then this gem…

To summarize, it seems that the rather surprising action of silver has been clearly shown in the horoscope. Unfortunately, this is an ex-post analysis as I ceased to cover silver on a regular basis in 2003, mainly because of the lack of momentum compared to gold I didn't perform this in-depth study in advance in the horoscope...

Humm, well... exactly makes my point about astrology being able to work backward AND forward to be really useful to business.

I have this dark and probably misguided urge to encourage our competitors in Europe to keep relying on this stuff. "YOU GO DUDES!" :D but yeah I know... a skeptical mindset ultimately is good for all businesses.

PS:
We hired an excellent Russian inventor/scientist found driving a cab in Moscow, maybe we’ll get some more good people with the wrong birth date or sloppy signatures next…

[Zep]

Karen, I just found this, in respect of confirming the actual existence of the JREF US$1 million.

I believe this is a real document, because I would imagine that a major financial firm like Goldman Sachs would be VERY unhappy if someone as public as JREF were found to be falsifying documents on their letterhead, and Mr Randi would have his backside sued if that was the case.

cheers
zep

http://members.aol.com/mikecombs/confirm.gif

[CFLarsen]

Zep,

There is more evidence here:

A scanned copy of the "Statement of Investment Account" (http://www.skepticreport.com/images/investmentaccount.gif)

[Karen Boesen]

Hi Zep,

my last comment for the time being. I just want to thank you for posting this material.

I have never doubted that the money excited. I assume that the person, who wanted to take the test, had not either. This person only wanted, which is completely normal in all businessaffairs, to get a written garantee that the money were there.

My point, when I mentioned the story, was NOT to question the excisting of the 1,1 mill. dollar - or how much it is for the time being - I only wanted to give an exampel of the way these people communicate. Winther obviously wanted to present this person as a person, who was more or less shady.
A small thing. Yes, I agree, but it is only one among lots and lots of others.

What I meant, when I stated that I would try to prove that Randi is a dishonest person, was, that I for the time being have quite a few statements about, how he tests people, how he manipulates, lies etc. Of course we will have to start to investigate these stories again from the beginning, if he is coming to Denmark. Because of that very timeconsuming work, we will prefer to see him in 2005.

Kind regards,

Karen Boesen

Business Astrologer :)

[Cleopatra]

Good morning Karen.

Yes English is not my native languge , it is only one of the languages I speak but I think that my English is acceptable. Yes I understood that your opening post was addressing among other people Mr. Randi and the Danes but you see, when you come here to narrate your story what you really try to do is to notify us for some events and persuade us about your right.

The truth is that Claus' debating methods ( I am stressing the word debating because I don't have any other experience with him out of this forum) are not very much of my taste but so far none has ever proven him lying.

I and everybody here have never found Claus lying about something and when accusations are presented to us it is our obligation to investigate them. What would you like us to do instead? To ignore your post?

I wish you didn't diagnose people with mental illnesses, I don't like this coming from an Astrologers because in the past astrologers have suffered such treatement I expect them to be sensitive in that matter.When you say that Claus is a psychopath this reminds me of witch -hunting.

Astrology talks about life-patterns, when an astrologer analyzes a birth chart to another person he revels to him part of his personality. This person that has come to counselling relates to what the astrologer says and it affects his life and future. Many people organize their future life according to Astrology and base their business decisions on Astrological claims.So, everything that affects life that much must be questioned.

Think it that way. If I was working in an industry as a simple employee where the boss uses an astrologer to run his business I would do everything possible to check the validity of the astrological claims.

Here is another example.Doctors say that I must quit smoking because I put my health in great risk and in order to persuade me the present me evidence that support their claims. You, as an astrologer claim that I must look at the planets to take professional decisions so I have to ask you why and see if your theories are verified.

This is what skepticism is about. You are skeptical too in some aspects of life, you are using skepticism to take your decisions, you expect doctors to give you proofs before taking a drug.

Anyway. It was nice talking to you. I invite you to stay because in this forum we don't talk only about Astrology but we discuss about many many things. Stay around we don't bite :)

What's your sign BTW? I am Taurus with Virgo ascendant and Moon in Libra but I didn't become a singer, only a boring lawyer ;)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
What I meant, when I stated that I would try to prove that Randi is a dishonest person, was, that I for the time being have quite a few statements about, how he tests people, how he manipulates, lies etc. Of course we will have to start to investigate these stories again from the beginning, if he is coming to Denmark.

You have already had so much time to dig up "lies", e.g. with your "presseofre.dk" site, created specifically to expose the "lies" of the skeptics, Randi included. You had to close it down, because the "lies" were non-existent.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Because of that very timeconsuming work, we will prefer to see him in 2005.

You are perfectly aware that Randi is probably coming to Denmark in 2004, so you invent excuses not to meet him. A few days ago, you "suddenly" discovered that you had to have an operation in the timeframe Randi could visit Denmark. After you were told when he could come, that is.

[Karen Boesen]

Hi Cleopatra,

my last mail. ( How often will I say that? :))

I can see that CL has forgotten to take his medicine today. Not the first time. Sad.
There are no less than 3 lies/manipulations in his last mail. Poor guy!

I am a Saggitarious, Leo Rising, Moon in Taurus.

/Karen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I can see that CL has forgotten to take his medicine today. Not the first time. Sad.

Nice.....

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
There are no less than 3 lies/manipulations in his last mail. Poor guy!

Asking you to point them out would be too much?

[Brown]

Good day, everyone.

I had hoped to return to this thread sooner, but I found my time in the past two days dominated by more pressing matters.

I have read all of the posts above, but I cannot say that I have read them all carefully. When an author ventures upon personal matters, I pay little heed.

From what I have read, I am not sure that I quite understand Ms. Boesen's basic position. I shall approach the problem in another way:

Suppose my associates and I decide to start a corportation, and we are considering hiring a business astrologer. What would a business astrologer do for us, specifically? We are practical people and we want to know what we would be getting for our money.

If the business astrologer were to ask us for our exact founding time, how should we answer? Is our founding time the time that we agreed to start the company? Is the founding time the time that we actually signed the founding documents? Is the founding time the time that we filed those documents with the secretary of state (the secretary of state is the government office that recognizes corporations, partnerships and the like)? Is the founding time the time that the secretary of state receives the documents and time stamps them? Is the founding time the time that the secretary of state issues a certificate of incorporation (officially recognizing our company)?

To complicate matters further, what if a statute (a law passed by the legislature) provides for a "constructive" founding time, such as "All corporations shall be deemed founded as of 12:01 a.m. on the date of incorporation." Is 12:01 a.m. our founding time?

If we know the exact founding time, then our company's horoscope would presumably be more valuable and useful. But if we do not know the exact founding time, what would the horoscope do for us?

[Blondin]

I would like to know more about the aspect of using Business Astrology in hiring/Human Resources practises. It seems to me this might present an easily tested claim. Any large company should have files on employee performance and birth data. Not time of day usually but that might be made available. too, for the purpose of a test.

If you were trying to decide on which Business Astrologer to hire you could test them by seeing which ones could match employee's evaluations with their birth data with a better-than-chance hit-rate.

[Kopji]

I cannot speak for all businesses, but I have not seen any comments from the skeptic ‘regulars’ that would not happen in a normal business meeting. Honestly, I am a little annoyed by the lack of ‘astrologer backbone’. Sheesh, if there is a business case for astrology, make it.

If I were going to be really harsh, I’d ask why the guy with the astrology charts did not consult with a psychic and KNOW that silver was the stock to watch. That simple connection might get my attention and interest. The simple words: “I had not paid any attention to the silver market, but my psychic called and told me to run a detailed chart on it. I did and made a big pile of money for the both of us”. But instead I read this past tense kind of wishful thinking "what might have been". This screams LOSER! Why would I recommend such stuff to people who respect and value my opinion? There is no reason.

Yes, there is harshness and emotion (both good and the bad) that comes when new ideas are presented, but making a good decision is perhaps similar to forging steel in a fire: We question and examine from all sides, pounding away. Dunk ‘em in cold water, heat 'em up… We try to break ideas, and see if they return stronger. The weak ones fall away. We ask “And what evidence is there that shows we might be completely wrong?” Hey this is business! Nothing personal. We come back and do it all over again next week. We are a better company for it.

[Rolfe]

I happened to notice Karen browsing this forum about 9 o'clock last night (Monday, GMT), and came by hoping she might have answered a few questions during that visit.

Apparently not.

Rolfe.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I happened to notice Karen browsing this forum about 9 o'clock last night (Monday, GMT), and came by hoping she might have answered a few questions during that visit.

Apparently not.

Rolfe.

Karen keeps a close eye on this forum.

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Brown,

I have very little time to answer questions in my daily life.

Please write the small article below. I shall try to find an example tonight.

/Karen Boesen

____________________________________________


Correction of the founding time
I have already mentioned the information required to create an company horoscope correctly.

It is:
1) Founding date and year.
2) Time of founding.
3) Longitude and latitude of founding.

As we will see, when we move on to especially strategic planning (but actually with any type of analysis) it is of vital importance that the timing of the founding is absolutely correct. The other information is usually always there.

To correct the company founding time – if there is any doubt of the validity of this – you must ask for at least 2 or 3 events. Very few people know exactly, down to the second, when their company was established.

Examples of correction events:
Hiring/firing of key employees
New locations
Introduction of new products
Establishment of subsidiaries

Any larger event in the company’s history can be used.
Based on the information, you calculate a horoscope for the event in question and evaluate if the given time appears to be correct.
It may seem strange to a layman that this is possible. If you think along astrological lines, it is very logical that you cannot change for instance a company’s locations by moving without seeing an clear effect in the horoscope.

The correction itself is made by moving the initial time given back or forth, say, 5-10 minutes to match the event. Then you continue with one or two other events to see if they fit with the new time set.
If the first 2-3 correctional horoscopes match the same time, you can trust the validity of the initial company founding horoscope. Keep in mind that the time is extremely important in structuring the horoscope. If the time is wrong, the chart will be imprecise, and you will not be able to interpret it correctly, nor, perhaps more important prognosticate correctly.

One of the vital points in a horoscope is the placement of the ascendant. This ascendant can change signs even with little deflections in the time. Even an inexperienced astrologer knows the vast difference between being born with your sun in Cancer instead of in Leo. Similarly, there is a great difference between a company with Cancer rising and with Leo rising.

The founding time defines many important points in the horoscope. Not only the Ascendant, but also the houses. You must work with correct data.

This is stressed even more, when you work with the prognoses. If the founding time is just 4 minutes wrong, the analysis is one year off the mark. Meaning that you either work with the past year, or that your prognosis is a year early. Not very practical mistakes. If you are working with a time that is just 7 or 8 minutes wrong you have already moved several years from the period you are expected to advise the company about.

Often it is difficult to get hold of the information necessary to create the horoscope. Particularly when we are dealing with smaller companies, started in the owner’s spare time, and then gradually growing bigger and becoming a full-time job.

The astrologer may in such a case have to work with several different horoscopes, each providing their own picture of the company. The astrologer must then use his/her experience combined with the events that have taken place after the founding of the company to determine which horoscope is the correct one.

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Brown,

Why use business astrology as a management tool?
One of the questions I often encounter in Denmark and abroad is: ”What can an astrologer do for businesses?” The answer to this is, of course, elaborate and also often surprising to the person asking the question.
Many business managers do not know that by using astrology they add to their company a business management analysis tool very different and much more precise than any previously used.

A very common remark from my clients, especially during the first years when we look mostly at strategic questions, is that the areas uncovered by the business astrologer are ones that the manager would have no other means of gaining knowledge of.

Traditional business counseling is based on the experiences of the relevant industry. This experience and knowledge along with the current situation as viewed by the company creates the foundation for making decisions about the company’s future.

But we all know that what we thought was part of our future and according to which we planned, can change quickly due to both internal and external influences. Influences that we have no way of guarding against or preparing for.

All companies, large and small, are dependent on technological tools, the know-how and loyalty of the staff, financing and stable conditions among customer groups nationally and abroad.

If the company is influenced in vital areas, it can turn out to be fatal. I am thinking of legal and political events. On a large scale for instance the Gulf War or the fall of the Berlin Wall – both events did influence strategy plans in Danish and international companies for better or for worse.

Through the press or through personal relations, most of us know of companies, that – if only they had been warned beforehand – would have known how to act regarding for instance the effect of the Gulf War on their turnover. Just look at the travel industry. They could have, much earlier than was the case, have decreased their expectations and changed their strategy plan, if they had made use of astrological counseling.

Of course a business astrologer cannot tell a company’s decision makers that there will be a war in the Gulf region which will influence the company dramatically. What a business astrologer can tell, though, are the risks the company will face in the coming years, what character the risks have and when they will have effect.

This counseling can contribute to a strategy that is realistic in view of the factors that astrology shows will come up.
Contrary to the risk you always face in questions regarding the uncertain future, you can through astrology get a much more valid prognosis and achieve a more stable development than previously. The strategic goals gain a completely new perspective which may even lead to the company performing better than the competition, because it uses its resources to the full.
The above is only a small part of the possible counseling types available.

[dann]

Karen Boesen: "Many business managers do not know that by using astrology they add to their company a business management analysis tool very different and much more precise than any previously used.
(...)
On a large scale for instance the Gulf War or the fall of the Berlin Wall – both events did influence strategy plans in Danish and international companies for better or for worse."

dann: And can anyone imagine a business manager who wouldn't enjoy being able to use "much more precise" analysis tools than the very unprecise ones currently at his or her disposal? Can you imagine an investor who wouldn't like to know when to invest in the former DDR or when to get out of Iraq? Is (business) astrology able to help the business manager answer these questions?
Apparently not ....

Karen Boesen: "Of course a business astrologer cannot tell a company’s decision makers that there will be a war in the Gulf region which will influence the company dramatically. What a business astrologer can tell, though, are the risks the company will face in the coming years, what character the risks have and when they will have effect."

dann: A better idea might have been to look at the horoscopes of Erich Honecker or Saddam Hussein .... if only the ordinary kind of astrology were actually able to predict anything, which apparently it isn't.

[Karen Boesen]

Mr. Brown,

I can see that Claus Larsen Has called for help. Dann is the person, who uses to fight astrologer. I shall jump over his writings and anything, which i related to it.

Below a small case story, while I am waiting for my client.

/ Karen Boesen

________________________________________________

STRATEGIC PLANNING

One of the questions I am often met with when I give lectures about astrology to business managers is: “Why should we use astrological counseling instead of or as a supplement to our usual advisors?”

As I have indicated earlier, the questions is easily answered: because astrologers, especially business astrologers can do things that no other advisors can. As simple as that!
That should be reason enough.
On the other hand, how can this be taken as anything but an allegation from me. Of course I can’t “prove” my claim during the few hours of a lecture. And so, potential clients have no other option than testing the product for themselves.
If one tries it, one could become dependent.
In my experience, many company managers get used to combining astrological advice with other types of counseling. This is the most sensible thing to do, in my opinion.
But we still live in a society where it is considered strange to use astrology professionally, and these attitudes influence the people who use business astrologers.

Several of the company owners I have worked with over the years have confided that they sometimes feel much provoked by the fact that astrology actually works, because they then do not wish to be without this tool. This dependence annoys many managers, which I both understand and not understand.
I do understand that one prefers to see results as a product of ones own knowledge and efforts and independent of outside aid. On the other hand it would be impossible for any human being, no matter who you are and how clever you are, to know exactly when to initiate activities, when to hold back and direct your energy to other resources. Those that are able to receive this energy. This is a new and different way of thinking, and I can understand that it is problematic initially.
Then again, my clients acknowledge that once they have seen for themselves that this type of advice cannot be gotten from any other source – it would be stupid no to use it. Thus benefiting all involved parties.

One of my larger clients, who has used astrology for app. 15 years, occasionally chooses to shut me/astrology out of the work with strategic planning – a decision you can make at any time.
I particularly remember an occasion where the managing director – having held a break for about 3 months after the end of the 2-year periods we usually worked with – contacted me and asked me to make a new strategic plan for the upcoming 2 years. Once again. He additionally asked me to include the 3-month period we had skipped and for which he hadn’t had a prognosis, and asked me to include the advice I would have given him for that period.
When I had done the relevant charts, it was soon clear that there had been quite a few challenging aspects in the past three months. Probably that was the reason for my client’s wish.
The nature of the challenges must have meant that it hadn’t been possible to carry out plans in those months.
Actually, it was very easy for me to describe the kinds of activities that could have caused problems.
As I recall, anything to do with foreign countries, contacts, negotiations, business conditions and so on in relation to other countries was strongly afflicted. Any astrologer would have told the decision-makers of this organization to under no circumstances engage in any form of new business areas related to other countries. The company should also avoid important negotiations as the communication planet Mercury was much afflicted. As we have seen earlier, Mercury’s domain is creating verbal and written contacts, in among other areas in negotiations.
This picture is of course simplified compared to the actual situation and the many partial areas that are influenced by such an aspect, which is why this brief description only serves as an example of the value of an annual prognosis. It is important to once again stress that an astrologer can offer unique information to a company.
My analysis dealt to a great extent with this problem situation, and the written report was sent to the client in advance of our meeting.
I recommend this procedure as it allows the client to study the material before the face-to-face meeting.
It turned out that the organization for the past three months had engaged in comprehensive negotiations with a large foreign company in the same line of business. My client’s goal was to acquire this other company to improve their own competitive ability and in addition gain a larger customer portfolio.
The company had during these three months – to no avail, of course – spent tons of time on negotiations, travelling, and even used the weekends to try and accelerate the situation.
The aspects had also lead to many power struggles (progressive Mars challenging Saturn).
But most importantly: the result of all the efforts was absolutely nothing. In short, they had misused their energy and therefore also resources, that could have been used in other areas of the company!
Timing is, as I have pointed out several times, the trump card of astrology. It would have been much wiser to have consulted an astrologer. Time is money, as they say – this investment had been bad indeed.
Looking at the new prognosis my advice to the client was to postpone further negotiations six months and then start afresh. At this time very positive aspects started to influence the horoscope, indicating that negotiations could almost not go wrong at this time.
It is always risky to listen to advice of this type, it may mean that at the end of the six months the company you had in mind has been bought by a competitor. To follow the advice requires you to be able to stay cool. And have confidence in astrology and you astrologer.
This was the case in my client’s company, and they postponed negotiations. At the right time, they contacted the other organization to restart their negotiations.
Luckily enough, they had no entered into agreements with any other potential buyers.
The company was now acquired on far better conditions that what had originally been discussed, which meant that the disposition had been very profitable.
In the following I will give an example – again very compressed – of a strategic analysis for Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni (from now on ST) in the year 2004. One of the companies that we have already looked at in the chapter on Structural analysis.
I will also stress that none of the companies we are working with here, Skandinavisk Tobakskompagni A/S and Lego A/S, are among my clients which means we can’t be certain of the founding time, as we have had no possibility of correction.
The time we are basing the analysis on is the time supplied by each company, the time the companies considers to be their official founding time. Reality may be different.
This mini analysis will not be used by ST, but only serve to enlighten the contents of a strategic plan.
Before you, the business astrologer, start working with a new company, there may be many hours of work before you are certain that the basic founding time is correct.
The below story may illustrate the problems.
At the end of the 1980’ies, where a new client approached me with a wish for help with the company’s future strategy plans, I had a great deal of detective work before I succeeded in finding the right founding time.
My client knew – which is not always the case – the date the organization was started, the year and the location. That is, latitude and longitude. But the founding time could only be narrowed down to sometime between 10 am and noon. That gave me two hours to work with, which may not seem a lot to non-astrologers, but is in fact a huge time span for an astrologer.
The day after my client placed his order, the company chauffeur arrived at my door with a stack of documents. They held information about company actions and larger changes through the period around the Second World War, where the company was established, and right up to the 80’ies, which was where I became involved.
Only one thing to do: start form the beginning and work my way through all the years!. This is an enormous job, which takes my time and company money. Detective work like this involves creation of many charts, verification of the times one works with and so on.
My husband, who is something of a historian, was allowed to read the documents, and we spent app. 8 days sifting through these historic documents, which were not only of astrological interest.
After these many hours of work I pinned down a founding time of 11:23 am. We have worked with this time since then, for app. 12-14 years, and it has proven to be valid.
This little story only serves to illustrate the size of the effort sometimes involved in finding the correct data. Data, which is essential to creating strategy plans with valid analyses. If the time is wrong, the analysis is worthless, or worse, misguiding.
Therefore this analysis of ST must be read knowing that the time may not be precise – and thus the analysis and its recommendations could be timed wrongly.

[MRC_Hans]

Karen Boesen:
On the "what can astrology do for a company" question, I think we have a bit of a short-circuit. The many things you list are obviously useful provided you can see into the future, however, that basic question is not answered. Quite the contrary, that is what is being challenged here, and it is this you are asked to show evidence for, not what astrology could do if it worked.

I have a couple of technical questions, which you might be able to answer (they have been mentioned before here):

1) How do you compensate for timezones? For example, all of Denmark is in the same timezone, but the celestial time difference between Christiansø and Blåvandshuk is some 35 minutes. To compound things further, timezones are placed rather arbitrarily on the map, for instance to keep entire districts or countries within the same timezone. What is the true celestial time for, say, 12:00 in Odense?

2) How do you compensate for calendar imprecision? The celestial year is not a whole number of days. Thus, Earth is not in the same position on, e.g. July 4th 12:00 1990 and July 4th 12:00 1991.

3) How do you compensate for proper motion of stars? As you surely know, the zodiac to-day is different from the one used in astrology.

I'm, sure these questions are quite elementary, but to a scientific mind they become very pertinent when you talk about a few minutes making a lot of difference.

Hans

[Brown]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I have already mentioned the information required to create an company horoscope correctly.

It is:
1) Founding date and year.
2) Time of founding.
3) Longitude and latitude of founding.

As we will see, when we move on to especially strategic planning (but actually with any type of analysis) it is of vital importance that the timing of the founding is absolutely correct. The other information is usually always there. Thank you for this helpful response.

If I may summarize (and please correct me if I am wrong), the three key pieces of information ((1) founding date and year, (2) time of founding and (3) longitude and latitude of founding) all appear to be within the control of the founders. Otherwise, strategic planning becomes exceptionally difficult, if not impossible.

In other words, actions by the government do not count. If my associates and I decide to found a company on February 16, and we specifically say so in our founding papers, then our founding day ought to be February 16. The government may not recognize our company until February 17 or 18, but that fact is not important to the date of founding. (If government recognition WERE important, then strategic planning would be nearly impossible, because it is nearly impossible to know the day or time when the government will act.)

A corporation, of course, is a legal entity, and has no existence except by law. For example, a corporation has no physical being, and therefore has no latitude or longitude. Can the founders of a corporation include in their founding documents a provision like "This corporation was founded on 17 February 2004 at exactly 12:01 a.m. central standard time at exactly 45 degrees north latitude, 90 degrees west longitude." Assuming that such date, time and location resulted in a favorable horoscope, could the corporation guarantee this favorable horoscope by including such a provision in its founding documents?Originally posted by Karen Boesen
To correct the company founding time – if there is any doubt of the validity of this – you must ask for at least 2 or 3 events. Very few people know exactly, down to the second, when their company was established.

Examples of correction events:
Hiring/firing of key employees
New locations
Introduction of new products
Establishment of subsidiaries

Any larger event in the company’s history can be used.
Based on the information, you calculate a horoscope for the event in question and evaluate if the given time appears to be correct.

The correction itself is made by moving the initial time given back or forth, say, 5-10 minutes to match the event. Then you continue with one or two other events to see if they fit with the new time set.
If the first 2-3 correctional horoscopes match the same time, you can trust the validity of the initial company founding horoscope.If I understand correctly, "correction" becomes important when the founding time is not precisely known. I am puzzled because the listed "correction events" do not apply to company founding, and do not seem to have any relation to founding time. Many of the "correction events" may occur a very long time after founding. A newly founded company does not establish subsidiaries at the time of founding, for example, and a new company almost never introduces new products at the time of founding. Also, because a company has no existence except by law, establishment of new locations is not relevant to founding (in the USA, a company can change its state of incorporation or principal place of business, but newly founded companies never do this).

I am further puzzled by the notion that one can use a correction event to move "the initial time given back or forth, say, 5-10 minutes to match the event. Then you continue with one or two other events to see if they fit with the new time set." If there are no limitations as to which events can be considered, and if there are no limitations as to whether the adjustment should be forward or backward, and if there are no limitations as to how far the initial time should be moved, then I do not see how this can possibly be an exact process. Forgive me, but it looks like guesswork.

As an engineer, I am aware that two things almost never "fit" or "match" exactly. I sometimes use well-known mathematical techniques such as "correlation," "pattern matching" or "morphological analysis" to determine whether data indeed match. Do you use such techniques?Originally posted by Karen Boesen
The astrologer may in such a case have to work with several different horoscopes, each providing their own picture of the company. The astrologer must then use his/her experience combined with the events that have taken place after the founding of the company to determine which horoscope is the correct one.Once again, this looks to me like guesswork. Surely there must be some criteria (such as a statistical analysis) for selection of which horoscope is the correct one? Engineers often rely on their training and experience when making decisions, but they always have criteria and evidence to support their judgments, and can explain the bases for their opinions.

Also, I am very puzzled about the benefits of a horoscope that can be changed after the fact. If all of the indicators are favorable, but then something very bad happens to my company, then it is little comfort to me for an astrologer to change the horoscope because of later events.Originally posted by Karen Boesen
[A]strologers, especially business astrologers can do things that no other advisors can. As simple as that!
That should be reason enough. In reading your extensive post, I still do not see what business astrologers can do that other advisers cannot. It is a simple matter for me to obtain information from sources other than business astrologers concerning the current and future economic climate, the prospects for marketability of my products and services, potential for financing and growth, and so on. These sources, however, never guarantee success. They always include reminders that their best judgment might be wrong: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results" is a popular reminder often used in the USA. Can a business astrologer give me a guarantee of success (assuming I follow the business astrologer's advice exactly)?

[dann]

It won't come as a surprise to Mr. Brown or anybody else, but
1) Claus Larsen hasn't "called for help". He is not in need of any.
2) I no longer spend nearly as much time as Claus or Mogens 'fighting' astrology.
3) "I shall jump over his writings and anything which is related to it", is a Danism meaning: 'I'll neglect whatever he says'.
Combined with Karen Boesen's tendency to post irrelevant and extremely long messages instead of answering simple questions, these tactics make a 'discussion' with her very tedious indeed.

[Karen Boesen]

Dann Simonsen!

You know perfectly well, that you NEVER will get any answers from me. I find you repulsive. You are forcible and the way you treat other people in your socalled " discussinons " is perfectly illustrated below:

"Dann Simonsen to chief consultant, legal psychiatrist Toni Haugen: "You are an unintelligent, pretentious, amateur interpreter".

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by dann
It won't come as a surprise to Mr. Brown or anybody else, but
1) Claus Larsen hasn't "called for help".

True.

Originally posted by dann
He is not in need of any.

Well....actually...there's this old pc over there, with a few harddisk errors....so.... :)

Originally posted by dann
2) I no longer spend nearly as much time as Claus or Mogens 'fighting' astrology.

I can testify to that.

Originally posted by dann
3) "I shall jump over his writings and anything which is related to it", is a Danism meaning: 'I'll neglect whatever he says'. Combined with Karen Boesen's tendency to post irrelevant and extremely long messages instead of answering simple questions, these tactics make a 'discussion' with her very tedious indeed.

But, you have to admit that, at times, Karen is very entertaining. In a frantic, frothing, maniacal sort of way.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dann Simonsen!

You know perfectly well, that you NEVER will get any answers from me. I find you repulsive. You are forcible and the way you treat other people in your socalled " discussinons " is perfectly illustrated below:

"Dann Simonsen to chief consultant, legal psychiatrist Toni Haugen: "You are an unintelligent, pretentious, amateur interpreter".

Tell us Karen is anybody that you like in Denmark?

I am sorry but we are not used in such behaviors here.We are not used in staying indifferent when people are called psychopaths, repulsive, liars or whatever without any proof.


Claus, Karen presents you and the others as a group of savages. What is going on here?

[Brown]

Please, friends, can we return to the subject of discussion?

I consider Claus to be my friend, but in the interest of discovering the nature of business astrology, I have avoided reading his posts. (Claus, I will read them at a later date.)

At this point, I am still wondering what business astrology can do for me. There are many services out there that can give me their judgment about my company's prospects. Many of them rely on current and past economic data, past performance, market surveys, and so forth. These services are often helpful in their analyses. But these services do not guarantee that my company will achieve success, even if I follow their advice exactly.

I am wondering whether I can get such a guarantee from a business astrologer if I follow the business astrologer's advice exactly. Can I take the business astrologer's advice to guarantee that my company will have a very favorable horoscope and thereby achieve success?

[Karen Boesen]

Dear Cleopatra,

I have asked webmaster to remove me from this list.

I hope that you will enjoy the company of the gentlemen here in future.

[dann]

"Dann Simonsen to chief consultant, legal psychiatrist Toni Haugen: "You are an unintelligent, pretentious, amateur interpreter".

For the benefit of those of you who know neither me nor Karen Boesen and Toni Haugen:

One of the astrologers had drawn the retired forensic psychiatist's attention to a (not very flattering) photo of me. Without asking for permission he took it from the webpage of my school and posted it at the astrologers' message board "Den Røde Tråd": www.astrologforeningen.dk
For a couple of months I let the former psychiatrist publish his weird interpretations of my character based on this photo. He paid particular attention to the fact that I was wearing a white undershirt which permitted a view of some chest hair above the neckline. The red-shift [I don't know if that is the right word!?] of the photo made him comment on my apparent tendency to drink too much alcohol! And, best of all, the alleged way that I had carefully positioned myself clearly proved the perverse vanity of my nature.
When I finally revealed that the photo had been made at my highschool/junior college (immediately obvious to most people) with the brief instruction from the photographer, "Look slightly to the left!", and absoluty no time for 'positioning' or 'posing', the good doctor was very upset because I had been 'leading him on' by not pointing out this fact to him before he started rambling.
By the way, my relative lack of vanity would be apparent from the fact that I let my school make this not very flattering photo of me appear on its website. Also, if I had been a little more vain, I might have shaved that day ....
I regret having to say that I can’t show you the photo. The webpage at my school no longer uses it (I wonder why ...), but I’m sure that Karen Boesen will send you a copy if you ask her.
In the meantime this is all I can offer you:
http://www.salsafritz.dk/salsaskole/billeder-kka-fest/b-kka-dec-00/original/image22.jpg
(I’m the busboy!)
http://www.salsafritz.dk/salsaskole/billeder-kka-fest/b-kka-dec-00/original/image24.jpg
(Damn! Just one more button ...)
http://www.salsafritz.dk/salsaskole/billeder-kka-fest/b-kka-maj-00/original/image66.jpg
(At long last – the infamous undershirt, the pony tail - but what happened to the hairy chest?)

For those of you who understand Danish, I recommend the Danish Astrologers’s message board Den Røde Tråd at: www.astrologforeningen.dk If you use undertrøje (undershirt) as your search word, you won’t miss much!

[LFTKBS]

Nicely done, CF et al. She came to this site to defend herself and sell her books, and I now have hard evidence that she is a liar. Sweet.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Tell us Karen is anybody that you like in Denmark?

Hmmmm......better not. :)

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am sorry but we are not used in such behaviors here.We are not used in staying indifferent when people are called psychopaths, repulsive, liars or whatever without any proof.

However, we do accept evidence if they are. ;)

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Claus, Karen presents you and the others as a group of savages. What is going on here?

It's a long story. It involves a thieving dowser, a face-reader with a penchant for censorship and an astrologer with a highly flexible memory. Together with a voice recorder, a scuffle and some serious lies....

Originally posted by Brown
I consider Claus to be my friend, but in the interest of discovering the nature of business astrology, I have avoided reading his posts. (Claus, I will read them at a later date.)

Fine. It's OK. I'm not offended. *sniff*

(.........*pearls before swine*......mumble....grumble...)

;)

[dann]

Still, you missed out on a lot of funny attempts at character assassination, LFTKBS. If Karen Boesen returns, she'll probably present you with all the bad things that the satanists have said about Claus and me!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by dann
Still, you missed out on a lot of funny attempts at character assassination, LFTKBS. If Karen Boesen returns, she'll probably present you with all the bad things that the satanists have said about Claus and me!
Oh! Oh! Classics! Oh!

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
It's a long story. It involves a thieving dowser, a face-reader with a penchant for censorship and an astrologer with a highly flexible memory. Together with a voice recorder, a scuffle and some serious lies....
Add a whip, a litre of Mazola Oil and it sounds like a great article for Skeptic Report.

[Mogens Winther]

For those who would like to know more about mrs Boesens amazing <a href ="http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Human%20Resources1%20english.htm">application of astrology when selecting employees - </a>

hereby a few quotations - enjoy !




LEO

"Without comparison, the Royal sign. Nobody above me, and nobody beside me, would be the correct description for a Leo, and for most parts, also the companies born with the Sun in this sign. The energy present here simply has a need to act in surroundings that are unique.

...

Quality and luxury are usually communicated through this, which is why it is advantageous to be a Supplier to the Royal Court. That could in many ways satisfy the self-centered and individualistic that describes the sign, which of course should not be placed in businesses where you mass-produce.

Whatever appeals to an extrovery promotion of the beautiful and the elegant should be the key area.

The entertainment business, directing, running an educational business, preferably top level, and entertainment as such stimulates and speaks to these companies.

Teaching children and adolescents, and the marketing of products aimed at these groups would be an excellent way to utilize the Leo's qualities."


========================


SCORPIO

"...we are now getting acquainted with a Scorpio-company, that is both capable of keeping its' business secrets, and therefore is very suited for areas that require discretion.

If you wish to start a company, where the ability to keep things to yourself - perhaps also a company with a good sense of the needs some clients can unconsciously have, then you need to start in the autumn, beginning of winter.

Underground activities of any kind is, by definition, the realm of a Scorpio. The world of banking, secret services, the fraud squad, espionage and private investigation bureaus are a few worth mentioning. Funeral parlors will also be found in the sign for destruction."

.....

========================
PISCES

"The last of the 12 zodiac signs is the climax. Pisces is an aquatic sign like Scorpio, and also has the ability to work behind the scenes, in the dark and hidden.

... If we talk about feeling and sensing how things work, it is in its right element, and therefore also appeals to companies where the need for illusions are predominant.

The romantic, the dreaming and imaginative is fruitful in Pisces, if the creative side is used in the best way. Soap operas, movies and music are mentioned as some of the arts that inspire companies submitted this category, where the sense of reality is rarely needed.

Nevertheless, the Pisces also contains a more traditional aspect in its nature. Here, we find the farmaceutical industry, shipping, oil industry, hospitals, nursing and all of the social sector."




- from Karen Boesens amazing business astrology articles in ”Horoskopet” #3 og #4 , 2000.


MW

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dear Cleopatra,

I have asked webmaster to remove me from this list.

I hope that you will enjoy the company of the gentlemen here in future. Karen, let me quote myself from a recent post here in this thread. So please feel free to stay and speak your mind. If you leave, it will only be you who will be taking yourself away, not us sending you away.So I hope you will reconsider your decision to depart our forum. You will always be welcome to return at all times, especially as there are many issues you raise that you have yet to explain in detail.

However, I also hope that if you decide to stay away that you will not be engaging in unsavoury tactics with your fellow astrologers such as badmouthing of us skeptics or JREF or Mr Randi or Claus Larsen or Mogens Winther, who have welcomed you here and continue to welcome you here so you can state and argue your positions freely. I think you will agree that would be very bad manners to treat your new friends so.

best wishes
zep

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Hi Zep,

...What I meant, when I stated that I would try to prove that Randi is a dishonest person, was, that I for the time being have quite a few statements about, how he tests people, how he manipulates, lies etc. Karen,

If you are still reading this, I would REALLY appreciate seeing your evidence of Mr Randi's lies and manipulations, and the statements of how he tests people. I don't mean just second-hand stories and anecdotes but the actual, real facts of the matter (journals, transcripts, photographs, etc). We MUST see ALL sides of the story if we are to be fair, so if you can give us the solid evidence then we will examine it critically. But we do mean solid, reliable evidence...

cheers
zep

[jj]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I can see that CL has forgotten to take his medicine today. Not the first time. Sad.
There are no less than 3 lies/manipulations in his last mail. Poor guy!


Some day, I sincerely hope that you wind up being held responsible for any false accusations that you've made.

I won't judge anything you've said, I'm merely making a wish that you be held responsible for those which prove to be false, hurtful, and/or conciously deceptive.

[jj]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Mr. Brown,

I can see that Claus Larsen Has called for help. Dann is the person, who uses to fight astrologer. I shall jump over his writings and anything, which i related to it.



Are you saying that you are going to stalk this fellow over the internet? Really?

[MRC_Hans]

Very interesting read on Karen's website (http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Novo%20Nordisk%20english.htm) . She is actually analyzing the company I work for. Now I begin to understand her statement about working with several large Danish companies: She makes horoscopes for them and publishes them on her website. And she does it for free! (Because they won't pay her for it).

The piece about Novo Nordisk is quite interesting (for an insider, I don't recommend you to wade through it):

First a long advertizing rant about the virtues of businessastrology (why does she write that in one word?).

Then a number of generalities about the company, lifted straight from its official website.

Then an "analysis", which is made of typical general statemens about business and management strategies, straight from any three-day course on management. Whatever parts are actually specific for Novo Nordisk consistently miss the point. For instance, KB has rather gloomy predictions for 2003, recommending caution and consolidation. With 2003 safely behind us, I'm glad to say that it was the best year in a long time, a clean recovery from the slight slow-down of the preceeding years. Far from caution and consolidation, an offensive and expansive strategy has paid off, and the company passed its chief competitor during 2003 and is now world leader in its field.

All this not to glorify my company but to indicate that KB might want to adjust the founding date a bit ;).

Hans

Edited to add: I have, of course, secured a copy of the page in question, in the unlikely event that it should suddenly change ;).

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by jj


Are you saying that you are going to stalk this fellow over the internet? Really?

No. She is attempting to say that she will pay no attention to his writings.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Jaymz

She is attempting to say that she will pay no attention to his writings. Welcome, Jaymz, and thanks for your input!

For the record, Karen's original quote was:I can see that Claus Larsen Has called for help. Dann is the person, who uses to fight astrologer. I shall jump over his writings and anything, which i related to it.Given the "translation" that you have supplied, it would appear that Karen is saying here that she is going to ignore not only what Claus Larsen says, she is also going to ignore anything Dann says too. Would that be your understanding?

If so, do you have an opinion if this would be a good or a bad thing?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by jj

Are you saying that you are going to stalk this fellow over the internet? Really?

It was already pointed out by Dann that: "I shall jump over his writings and anything which is related to it", is a Danism meaning: 'I'll neglect whatever he says'.

Why you ask her if she's going to stalk somebody in response is a mystery.

[dann]

"First a long advertizing rant about the virtues of businessastrology (why does she write that in one word?)"

dann: Because it's one word in Danish: forretningsastrologi

"I shall jump over his writings" is a so-called 'undersættelse', explained as "an amusing incorrect translation" in my dictionary.
In Danish the sentence would be: 'Jeg vil springe over hans skriverier'.
jeg vil = I'll
hans skriverier = scribblings
springe over = skip, leave out, miss, forget, cut out
The word springe, however, means jump, which results in the undersættelse.
My 'translation': "I'll neglect whatever he says."

"If so, do you have an opinion if this would be a good or a bad thing?"

dann: Well, I, for one, can live with that! But if you go back, you'll notice that Karen Boesen was the one who, for some reason, had to drag me into this, even though I wasn't active in the 'fight' against astrology for the past six months or so and didn't really miss it.

I experienced the same thing with the retired forensic psychiatrist Toni Haugen who found it hard to live with the fact that I, a mere mortal, had ridiculed his notion of human consciousness as a thing existing in another dimension and somehow being beamed into our skulls by means of something akin to, but not identical with, radio waves!

[dann]

Oh, it just occurred to me: It's Danicism,, not Danism!

[Zep]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


It was already pointed out by Dann that: , is a Danism meaning: 'I'll neglect whatever he says'.

Why you ask her if she's going to stalk somebody in response is a mystery. I suspect, and I may certainly be corrected, that this was originally interpreted as meaning: "I shall jump [all] over his writings and anything which is related to it" in the sense that the term "to jump all over" something is a colloquialism that means to pursue something frantically by every means available. Therefore the sentence can easily be translated to mean that Karen was going to frantically chase Dann's writings across the internet, i.e to stalk him. Fortunately this notion has been adequately dispelled.

Nothing divides us like a common language!

[Tanja]

I have only now read this thread - and it is the most interesting thread I have read on this forum in a long while. I would be delighted if there were more astrologers, homeopaths etc. willing to answer questions on this board.

Well, actually not so many questions have been answered. I have noticed as well (as Dann pointed out) that Karen answered specific questions by posting long and vague posts, and by quoting large paragraphs of other posters just adding "and what is your problem with that?".

She NEVER answered the most interesting question (in my opinion) about what constitutes the exact moment when a company is established. What if a group of people decided to start a company over a videoconference, one person being in New York at 6am local time, the other in London at 11am, and the third one in Helsinki at 1pm local time? And they register the company on the Cayman islands for tax purposes? What time and lattitude and longitude would an astrologer choose? I don't think astrology could take into account any of these things, probably because astrology is a product of times when people and ideas travelled much less fast.

I suppose in the same way it is impossible to say, at least in some cases, what constitutes an individual's exact itme of birth? What if a person was delivered prematurely on a transatlantic flight? Surely the time of birth is purely arbitrary in this case?

My personal opinion is actually that the problem is not that astrologers can do as well as business consultants, but that consultants can be as vague as astrologers, and that often a company paying for a consultant's services accepts similar vague statements and prognoses. If the consultant has good verbal and presentation skills, they can bulls**t their way around and get away with it. I am not a consultant myself, this is the opinion I formed after talking to a couple of people working as consultants.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by dann
Oh, it just occurred to me: It's Danicism,, not Danism!

You sure it's not a "Dann-icism"? ;)

[dann]

Tanja: "My personal opinion is actually that the problem is not that astrologers can do as well as business consultants, but that consultants can be as vague as astrologers, and that often a company paying for a consultant's services accepts similar vague statements and prognoses. If the consultant has good verbal and presentation skills, they can bulls**t their way around and get away with it. I am not a consultant myself, this is the opinion I formed after talking to a couple of people working as consultants."

dann: And like the astrologers: When the company goes bankrupt, nobody ever doubted that this was bound to happen ...

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Tanja
My personal opinion is actually that the problem is not that astrologers can do as well as business consultants, but that consultants can be as vague as astrologers, and that often a company paying for a consultant's services accepts similar vague statements and prognoses. If the consultant has good verbal and presentation skills, they can bulls**t their way around and get away with it. I am not a consultant myself, this is the opinion I formed after talking to a couple of people working as consultants.

Oh, you are so right. While it is not general, there are consultants out there who can spout the most incredible vapid bullsh1t, talking for hours and not saying a single thing.

Consulting is a very much needed business, though. I'm not putting it down (I'm a consultant meself) or anything. Consulting is basically selling information/knowledge: E.g. I know a great deal about a certain part of computing, but have absolutely no idea about e.g. economics. My job is to give the best possible advice to the client within my own field, while the client will get his economical advice somewhere else. It is then up to the client to decide what to do with the information he gets.

To claim that you can give sound advice on all aspects of how to run any kind of company is to fool yourself and the client. That's why business astrologers cheat their clients: They pretend to derive knowledge from celestial sources that will solve all your company's problems.

The trick is to distinguish between the bull and the bread. That is why asking direct questions is so crucial. That is why Karen Boesen doesn't want to answer them.

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by Zep
Welcome, Jaymz, and thanks for your input!


Thank you.


Originally posted by Zep

For the record, Karen's original quote was:Given the "translation" that you have supplied, it would appear that Karen is saying here that she is going to ignore not only what Claus Larsen says, she is also going to ignore anything Dann says too. Would that be your understanding?


Yes it would.

Originally posted by Zep

If so, do you have an opinion if this would be a good or a bad thing?

Actually in this particular thread and since it is Karen's first visit to the forum, I would have preferred if Claus and Dann had assumed a more passive role. The bad blood (and words) between the two gentlemen and Karen gives her an easy way out, and it will not be difficult for her to quote passages from Claus or Dann to show that she left the forum due to abuse, and not because she was unable to answer the simple questions she was asked.

Of course I understand why Claus and Dann have a hard time staying silent during Karen's accusations but they should both remember that sometimes it is better to let someone else argue your case.

I have read several of Dann's and Claus's arguments both here and on Skeptica.dk and I consider them both to be very informed and well spoken. However I often find them trying to beat Karen in her own game: Aggressiveness.

I find that unnecessary as well as damaging for their cause. They have a great case, and presenting it in an aggressive manner only gives Karen excactly what she wants: a chance to play the innocent victim.

[dann]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dann Simonsen!

You know perfectly well, that you NEVER will get any answers from me. I find you repulsive. You are forcible and the way you treat other people in your socalled " discussinons " is perfectly illustrated below:

"Dann Simonsen to chief consultant, legal psychiatrist Toni Haugen: "You are an unintelligent, pretentious, amateur interpreter".

I'm aggressive, and I give Karen Boesen a chance to play the innocent victim???

[dann]

"Af Karen Boesen (kb) indsendt onsdag, d. 26. november, 2003 - 09:41:
"Endnu en trussel. Forbløffende at der er ikke er nogen astrologer, der tager afstand fra dette.
/Claus Larsen "

Det er der da sikkert også. Men hvad skulle det hjælpe dig? Om så der var 500 astrologer, der gik i fakkeloptog for at redde dig, ville du únder alle omstændigheder få en røvfuld.
Forøvrigt ikke en ny trussel. Blot en gentagelse af den gamle. Mere så du ikke glemmer den og tror, at den hellige grav er velforvaret."


dann: my translation:
"Another threat. Amazing that no astrologer repudiates this.
/Claus Larsen"

Somebody probably does. But what good would it do you? Even if 500 astrologers held a torchlight procession to save you, you would still get a thrashing.
By the way, it's not a new threat. Just the old one being repeated. Just to make sure that you don't think yourself safe.


dann: Claus Larsen is being aggressive???
Believe me, the "chance to play the innocent victim", to paraphrase an old song, no, no, you can't take that away from her.
More examples? Go to the www.astrologforeningen.dk and use "røvfuld" as your searchword ...

[CFLarsen]

Jaymz,

I'm very direct. I want some answers. I am not satisfied with a vapid one, I want to see the facts, the data, the evidence.

And I have very little tolerance for frauds.

So, I don't stop, when people try to give answers that are not answers at all, but merely hot air and flummery. I dig deeper, until I find whether people have evidence of their claims, or whether they don't.

You can call that "aggressive" if you like.

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by dann


I'm aggressive, and I give Karen Boesen a chance to play the innocent victim???

I'm sorry Dann. I should have pointed out that I see Karen as much more aggressive than you and Claus combined.

What I had in mind was stuff like this from Claus:
"But, you have to admit that, at times, Karen is very entertaining. In a frantic, frothing, maniacal sort of way."

I must admit that a person like Karen deserves all the ridicule she gets. I have (as you) witnessed her calling a board administrator "fascist" and several other things that were hardly called for.

However I believe in choosing the high road even when arguing people like her. Even though Karen is 10 times more abusive than Claus she will still feel justified in leaving this thread due to abuse, and she will still be able to use the above quote as "proof" that skeptics are mean and cynical.

[dann]

Originally posted by Jaymz

Even though Karen is 10 times more abusive than Claus she will still feel justified in leaving this thread due to abuse, and she will still be able to use the above quote as "proof" that skeptics are mean and cynical.

dann: Exactly! You can't take that away from her!

[CFLarsen]

Jaymz,

You don't like Karen being described as "frantic, frothing, maniacal"?

A few gems from Karen:

"Men hvis det kan glæde dig, kan vi sagtens udvide min lovning om en røvfuld til alle medlemmer af Skeptica.dk - med undtagelse af Anja Andersen - hvis jeg bliver generet i at udføre mit lovlige arbejde."

"But if it pleases you, we can easily expand my promise of a thrashing to all members of Skeptica.dk - with exception of Anja Andersen - if I am bothered in my lawful work"


"...at hele polimikken med disse skeptikere, som jo blot skulle have haft en røvfuld..."

"...that the whole controversy with these skeptics, who only should have had a thrashing..."


Karen in a nutshell:

"Jeg siger/skriver, hvad der passer mig, og jeg argumenterer aldrig for noget af det!"

"I say/write what I feel like, and I never argue for any of it!"

How Karen looks at criticism:

"Jeg tåler ikke kritik, vil under ingen omstændigheder acceptere indblanding. Er argumentresistent! Kan det siges tydeligere?"

"I cannot stand criticism, will under no circumstances accept interference. Is argument-resistant. Can it be said more clearly?"

Guess not...

[dann]

Well, "am resistant to arguments", would be a little clearer ...

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by Claus

Jaymz,

You don't like Karen being described as "frantic, frothing, maniacal"?

No I don't. Not because she deserves to be treated with respect, but because diagnosing people with mental illnesses should be something she does and only her!


BTW - you forgot this little beaty:

Originally posted by Karen Boesen

KB: "Hvis du en dag viser dig i mit regi og forsøger at optage med skuldt kamera or whatsoever, så klapper jeg dig ganske enkelt nogen på skrinet. Så mange, som jeg overhovedet kan overkomme, inden politiet ankommer.

Translation by Jaymz:
"Should you ever show yourself on my turf and try recording with a hidden camera or whatever, I will beat you in the head. As many times as I can manage before the police arrives.

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by dann


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jaymz

Even though Karen is 10 times more abusive than Claus she will still feel justified in leaving this thread due to abuse, and she will still be able to use the above quote as "proof" that skeptics are mean and cynical.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


dann: Exactly! You can't take that away from her!

You can't take away the fact that she will always feel justified, I agree. But you can take away the "proof" by using a tone as for instance Zep and Brown (amongst others) have done in this thread.

I don't mean to lecture either you or Claus in how to behave. I am sure you already know that. I'm just asking you to consider how some of your posts might look to an outsider.

Or maybe it's just me - I hope some of the other JREF'ers will give me their take on the situation?

[dann]

It's true, Jaymz, if I had never used these words to sum up the activities of retired forensic psychiatrist Toni Haugen,
"You are an unintelligent, pretentious, cheap deliverer of homespun interpretations" (my translation this time)
Karen Boesen would never have been able to quote me. (Her point being that I dared to treat this distinguished gentleman, MD and forensic psychiatrist!, in this manner).
However, every time she quotes me (in public!), it gives me the opportunity to tell the whole story, which is very educational, I think.
A similar thing happened when the astrologers repeatedly called Mogens Winther a "liar" and "deceiver" because he had posted certain birth data as his own and only revealed that they weren't, when the astrologers had interpreted everything that they thought they new about him into the horoscopes based on the false data.
They felt justified in using these terms to describe Mogens Winther, which gave us the opportunity to tell the whole story. I used to stress the point that Mogens Winther was the one who revealed the truth, the astrologers never 'exposed' the 'deceiver' as they'd like to think.

As I see it, skeptics often gain a lot from using the good-cop/bad-cop routine! And believe it or not: for a very long time Danish astrologers thought of me as the good skeptic!

[Karen Boesen]

I can see that the webmaster not yet has removed me from this forum, and I could not resist to come back to see, what has happened since yesterday.

I have read some of the threads - very quickly - others not.

There was a gentleman, who argued against Cl and Simonsen. He was afraid that I should " use " the statements of these 2 creatures in a "wrong way". Be sure I will!
The skeptics have taught me that.
One takes a few words here - put them together with some other words in another context, then we make up some fantasies ourselves - and then, then, then............ we have her statemensts. Goebbels could not have done that much better.

I saw that a person mentioned that I have called the moderator of the skeptic forum in Denmark a fascist . '' The truth is that Mr. Wolf presented HIMSELF as a satanist and a fascist!
Both CL and Simonsen were about to be expelled from this skeptic forum because of their way of communication.
But then all the skeptics started to fight each other, and the whole board was closed down. It was extremely funny. All we astrologers leaned back and laughed. Simonsen among others were called " a religious skeptic " etc. etc. They had only allowed CL to be there for so long, because they thougt that he was about 20 years old. ( He has passed his forties. )

And yes Simonsen about Winthers data. 2 - 3 amateur astrologers tried to say something about Winthers false data. The rest of us were silent. We know too well that Winther is extremely dishonest, so why should we waste our time on his false data.

Well gentlemen! It has been a pleasure to be in here. Most of you - not all - seem to be just as narrowminded as the 3 Danish skeptics, you have met so far.

[MRC_Hans]

The "good cop/bad cop" analogy is very good. The thing is, these people will slander skeptics no matter what. I really don't know what is best, but perhaps it is simply not worth the trouble to argue with them, except to expose them to the hypothetical audience of lurkers. One thing I know is that a good fight draws a crowd.

Hans

[Karen Boesen]

" : for a very long time Danish astrologers thought of me as the good skeptic!


__________________
dann"

Good Lord!!!!!! Who was that astrologer/astrologers?? Try to tell the truth - just for one time in your lifetime!

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen


I saw that a person mentioned that I have called the moderator of the skeptic forum in Denmark a fascist . '' The truth is that Mr. Wolf presented HIMSELF as a satanist and a fascist!

Wolf said the following: "When it comes to moderating, I am a fascist", meaning that he wasn't prepared to run the board as a democracy but would ban people as he saw fit. Perfectly reasonable, since it was his board.

You Karen, then used that statement as an excuse to constantly label him as "Wolf - the admitted fascist".

Not entirely honest do you think?

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I really don't know what is best, but perhaps it is simply not worth the trouble to argue with them, except to expose them to the hypothetical audience of lurkers.
Hans

Exactly - and in my opinion the less we look like them, the more they will be exposed.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Well gentlemen! It has been a pleasure to be in here. Most of you - not all - seem to be just as narrowminded as the 3 Danish skeptics, you have met so far. I am sad that this thread has involved so much name-calling, as it has detracted from the topic of discussion.

The topic (of course) is business astrology, and in particular, the merits (or lack thereof) of horoscopes for business.

I have tried to approach the question from the point of view of a businessman. A good businessman would ask whether it would be of value to obtain the services of a business astrologer. This may sound like a skeptical point of view, but I submit that it is the kind of inquiry any good businessman would make.

I still am unsure whether there is value in following the advice of a business astrologer. It seems to me that the time and place of founding would be important, but I cannot seem to get straight information about how I could control the time of founding. There are so many possible times that could be "the time of founding," but I do not know which one is the most important one. And if I can control the time of founding, can I guarantee my company a favorable horoscope?

Also, if I did not know the time of founding, I am told that my company's horoscope would not have predictive value, and that it could be modified according to events that occurred after founding. As a businessman, I would be compelled to ask: "What, then, is the value in such a horoscope?"

[Karen Boesen]

"in my opinion the less we look like them, the more they will be exposed."

What shall one say? The skeptics like Simonsen and CL have fought people physicallly, who hold different opinions. Is that a good way to an open dialogue? Not from my poin of view.

I will admit - no problem at all - that I will never be open, polite etc. to the skeptics, Danish, that we have met in this forum. I know them too well. I despises them right from my heart. To me this is a war. Believe me I am sure that it will continue for the rest of our lives.

To Mr. Brown!

I am sorry that I wasn`t able to answer your serious questions. The fact is, that I will NEVER answer any question, no matter if an astrologer is asking me or if it is a skeptic. I know from experience that all I say will be twisted, manipulated etc.
Sorry - but that is how things are. At least in Denmark and in regard to James Randi.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Jaymz
No I don't. Not because she deserves to be treated with respect, but because diagnosing people with mental illnesses should be something she does and only her!

FTR, I was not intending to diagnose anyone with a mental illness.

Originally posted by Jaymz
BTW - you forgot this little beaty:

Yup. Thanks.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
What shall one say? The skeptics like Simonsen and CL have fought people physicallly, who hold different opinions. Is that a good way to an open dialogue? Not from my poin of view.

You are a liar, Karen. Neither me or Dann have "fought people physically". I was robbed of a sound recorder, and Dann was quick to help me get it back.

You repeat your lies (and you know they are lies, you have admitted this) until they become truth to you. If we really had "fought people physically", we would have at least been reported to the police. You know how violent crime is treated in Denmark, Karen: The politicians are very harsh on those who commit violence.

Gee, golly: Dann and I are not in jail. We did not receive any fines. We were not found guilty. We were not even charged with anything. There were no reports. The police didn't show up. Nobody called the police. No ambulances, no bruises, not even a cracked nail.

Gee, golly, Karen, why is that? Perhaps because that assault you are accusing us of never happened?

You are a liar, Karen.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I will admit - no problem at all - that I will never be open, polite etc. to the skeptics, Danish, that we have met in this forum. I know them too well. I despises them right from my heart. To me this is a war. Believe me I am sure that it will continue for the rest of our lives.

You may look at this as a personal war. I prefer to look at it as a fight against ignorance, oppression and fraud.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I am sorry that I wasn`t able to answer your serious questions. The fact is, that I will NEVER answer any question, no matter if an astrologer is asking me or if it is a skeptic. I know from experience that all I say will be twisted, manipulated etc. Sorry - but that is how things are. At least in Denmark and in regard to James Randi.

Trench warfare thinking. Sad, but a reality.

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
The skeptics like Simonsen and CL have fought people physicallly, who hold different opinions.

That is one way to put it. Another would be to say that they have used force to retreive a taperecorder that was unlawfully taken from them.

One would think that if they really are such terrible people you wouldn't have to exaggerate their actions as much as you do.



Originally posted by Claus

FTR, I was not intending to diagnose anyone with a mental illness.


I know :)

But it could still be interpreted that way, and the less Karen has to work with the better. For example see above (not that I wouldn't have gotten that taperecorder back myself, one way or the other)

[Karen Boesen]

Cl!

You were not reported to the police BECAUSE the guys you attacked were socalled ( In Denmark ) " alternative "
These people don`t start such thing. They are calm. They only wanted to get rid of you and Simonsen and get peace.

You was lucky that I ( capital I ) was not the one, you attacked.

After your " performance " in the KB-Hall in Copenhagen, you started to threaten me too, and because of that I told you, what would happen if you ever dared to lay hands on me.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
To Mr. Brown!

I am sorry that I wasn`t able to answer your serious questions. The fact is, that I will NEVER answer any question, no matter if an astrologer is asking me or if it is a skeptic. I know from experience that all I say will be twisted, manipulated etc.
Sorry - but that is how things are. At least in Denmark and in regard to James Randi.

Please. I am able to talk to equal terms with you but you have refused to discuss.
BTW dann mentioned some adventures of his with this respectable psychiatrist you mentioned. You didn't comment them. Do you find such analysis serious? Do you think that it is a serious thing to analyze people from a photo judging by the way they look?

I have started to believe that when you came here you expected to come up with a really abusive behavior from our part and return to the forum of the astrologers to narrate what sort of savages the members of JREF are.

I hope that people from the forum of the astrologers follow this discussion ( I wonder if Claus can link the thread) and people see that you have not responded to our invitations or polite questions. Instead, you accused people of things you never bothered to support.

How nice of you.

[Mogens Winther]

Concerning Business Astrology.


Karen always avoids answering tricky technical questions, probably because she knows the answer will be devastating to her work as astrologer.

But the questions by Brown et al are relevant – in other aspects ISBA members do stress the importance of knowing the birth data within 1 degree = 4 minutes.

On her webpages you however find nothing but small talk – including a <a href ="http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Analyser1%20english.htm">short notice by Mr Munkasay</a> : - which describes again some of the claimed timing benifits within astrology :



“Often, questions which arise in this area involve sound business practice: should I take out a loan at this time from this bank; should I fire or hire an employee; should I move to this building; etc. ... Astrology can give wonderful insight into the timing of such events....”

(Bold letters – MW) .


Mr Munkasy is ISBA member, member of <a href ="http://kepler.edu/who/board/index.html">the Kepler Board</a> - as well as member of the Kepler foundation <a href ="http://kepler.edu/giving/founders.html">25 000 Dollar sponsor circle</a>

So, actually the <a href ="http://www.kepler.edu/index.html">
“Kepler College of Astrological Arts and Sciences” </a> should be able to give you a more qualified reply than Karen.

However - they will probably not dare to reply too.


This little club of business astrologer also counts

Georgia Stathis – teacher on <a href ="http://kepler.edu/who/faculty/index.html">Kepler</a> and <a href ="http://www.businessastrologers.com/Listofmembers.htm">member of ISBA</a>

As well as good old Robert Hand, <a href ="http://kepler.edu/who/guest/index.html"> guest lecturer :</a> , <a href ="http://kepler.edu/who/advisors/index.html">Kepler Council Member</a> as well as ISBA member

In addition we find Kay Schrinker – ISBA member – who also offers academic classes in business astrology - <a href ="http://www.astrocollege.com/">Astrocollege</a>


The latter has an agreement with both Kepler – as well as the :
<a href ="http://www.astrocollege.com/academic/department.cgi?DEPT=CERTIFIC">“National Council for Geocosmic Research”</a> - oh, what a wonderful nonsense


So you see, it is easy to understand why Karen sponsored cookies on the <a href ="http://kepler.edu/giving/online_auction.html">recent Kepler auction </a>



Best greetings


Mogens


Concerning mrs Boesens frequent self invented stories, now
her claims about CFL : "you started to threaten me too"


Karens flexible memory has been amazing – also concerning

<a href ="http://www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm"> her efforts to avoid the JREF test - </a> - as well as concerning her tears about mr Zimmels apparently wrecked university thesis in business astrology.

Karens imagination shows apparently no limit. Last summer she and a collegue started distributing stories that I every year force my family to participate in deeply religious and boring Bible tent camp meetings.

When she was shown a link to a nautic website that showed how we really do spend our holidays at sea, that was even worse – as you may have read in one of her letters above

[Karen Boesen]

Cleopatra.

No need to invite more astrologers. I did so one week ago, and many of them are reading this stuff. They don`t want to participate, because they know that it is vaste of time.

I am much worser in Danish chatrooms, because I don`t have an ear for language, and that prevent me from a lot of more serious claims.

[Karen Boesen]

BTW. Reg. the " story " on Simonsen!

You believe that? No problems at all. How strange.
Well I know, what happened and I know that Simonsen is lying.
Did that occur to you at all?

[Brown]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
To Mr. Brown!

I am sorry that I wasn`t able to answer your serious questions. The fact is, that I will NEVER answer any question, no matter if an astrologer is asking me or if it is a skeptic. I know from experience that all I say will be twisted, manipulated etc.
Sorry - but that is how things are. At least in Denmark and in regard to James Randi. This is too bad. Normally, this forum is devoted to a frank exchange of opinions and information. Strong disagreements occur from time to time. You are not the first person who has felt that others have twisted or manipulated your remarks.

I sincerely hope that you do not feel that I am one who has done so.

In my experience, when one person start to charge another with saying things that are untrue, chances are that not everything said is untrue. I was hoping to find out the nature of what was believed to be untrue, and so I inquired into the benefits of business astrology, business horoscopes, and founding time.

Perhaps some of the things said about your practice are valid or are legitimate points of view, and perhaps some are not. I certainly expect that any honorable skeptic who makes a factual error about something (even if it is something the skeptic considers trivial) would want to know about the error. But blanket accusations of dishonesty do not help us sort out (1) what is agreed upon as factually true and (2) what is honest difference of opinion and (3) what is alleged to be factually false.

So be it. I am sorry that you have decided not to help me learn more about your practice, but I understand your decision.

[Karen Boesen]

MW: "Karens imagination shows apparently no limit. Last summer she and a collegue started distributing stories that I every year force my family to participate in deeply religious and boring Bible tent camp meetings.

When she was shown a link to a nautic website that showed how we really do spend our holidays at sea, that was even worse – as you may have read in one of her letters above"

Ha-ha! Yes, I know that you enjoyed your holiday together with other people, who are " belivers ". Nothing wrong with that!

Reg. your boat. You send me a photo of a very expensive boat/yacht. I can send you one too if you want. Maybe a photo on one of the many ferries, we have in Denmark?

For the reader: Mr. Winther is a teacher. Because of his age, he might be paid app. USD 6.000 - 7.000 per month. He send me a photo of a yacht. App. USD 180.000. Maybe Mr. Winther has won the lottery or may be has a huge enheritance? Not of my business.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
You were not reported to the police BECAUSE the guys you attacked were socalled ( In Denmark ) " alternative "
These people don`t start such thing. They are calm. They only wanted to get rid of you and Simonsen and get peace.

You obviously were not present. It wasn't the skeptics who stole anything. It wasn't the skeptics who demanded the right to censor the media. It wasn't the skeptics who threw bile at anyone who disagreed with them.

Copies of recording available by request (In Danish only, I'm afraid).

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
You was lucky that I ( capital I ) was not the one, you attacked.

I did not "attack" anyone, Karen, and neither did Dann.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
After your " performance " in the KB-Hall in Copenhagen, you started to threaten me too, and because of that I told you, what would happen if you ever dared to lay hands on me.

I merely told you that anyone could expect skeptics to show up at any lecture to ask questions. That, apparently, was such a scary possibility that you began to threaten me and others with physical violence.

And let us forget all about the threats of lawsuits from astrologers, face-readers, dowsers, clairvoyants, as well as your own hate-site, "presseofre.dk".

Not to speak of your behavior here.

"Calm" indeed.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Well I know, what happened and I know that Simonsen is lying.

Well I know, too, what happened, and I know that Simonsen is telling the truth.

Did that occur to you at all?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
No need to invite more astrologers. I did so one week ago, and many of them are reading this stuff. They don`t want to participate, because they know that it is vaste of time.

This reminds me of what the Danish astrologer Christian Borup said (on TV!), when he was asked why he wouldn't take the Randi Challenge:

"Every time astrologers have been tested, it has gone wrong".

When asked, "For whom?", he replied:

"For the astrologers".

Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings....

[Mogens Winther]

Dear Karen, you are not able to give any reply concerning this boards questions on your business.


However you do not hesitate asking questions about what is NOT your business : skeptics private life.


But nevertheless - since you have asked so many times about these details - this boat was fully paid by both my reasonable salary and by an educational award – given due to my work in <a href ="www.amtsgym-sdbg.dk/as/galleri ">astronomy teaching</a>


So what is the problem, Karen, that science teaching maybe pays better off than astrological superstition ?



/MW

[Karen Boesen]

MW: "Dear Karen, you are not able to give any reply concerning this boards questions on your business."

I beg your pardon!!! YOU were the one, who send me a photo of " your " boat. Were you not? I could not care less.

By the way, do you remember, when you started to send my husband a lot of manipulated stuff about me? What were your purpose? One can only guess. I have NEVER tried to interfere with skeptics private life. In fact I am not at all interested.

[CFLarsen]

Mogens,

The link doesn't work. It is:

http://www.amtsgym-sdbg.dk/as/galleri

Has Phil Plait seen these images?

[CFLarsen]

This:

Originally posted by Mogens Winther
Dear Karen, you are not able to give any reply concerning this boards questions on your business.

is absolutly not addressed here:

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I beg your pardon!!! YOU were the one, who send me a photo of " your " boat. Were you not? I could not care less.

Yet another "blowing in the wind" reply from Karen.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
By the way, do you remember, when you started to send my husband a lot of manipulated stuff about me? What were your purpose? One can only guess. I have NEVER tried to interfere with skeptics private life. In fact I am not at all interested.

May we see this evidence of Mogens Winther's manipulations?

[Karen Boesen]

CL:

"May we see this evidence of Mogens Winther's manipulations?!


__________________

No, you may not see anything, because it is not of your business.
But my questions are as follows:

Is the above mentioned critizisme of astrology?
Is it critizisme of astrology, when Winther`s pupils phone me and ask me / ( and other astrologers ) " strange " questions?
Is it critizisme of astrology when Winther`s pupils email me again and again?

No of course not. Winther apparently uses his position as a teacher to influence his pupils and pass on his hate towards people, who have different believes of his own.

[Karen Boesen]

PS. To make it very clear!

Noone in the " alternative " invornment here in DK has ever pursued any skeptics because his or hers attitudes.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
No, you may not see anything, because it is not of your business.

That means we should trust your word, Karen? Doesn't work 'round these parts.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Is the above mentioned critizisme of astrology?

No idea, we are not allowed to see it.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Is it critizisme of astrology, when Winther`s pupils phone me and ask me / ( and other astrologers ) " strange " questions?

What questions were that?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Is it critizisme of astrology when Winther`s pupils email me again and again?

What did they email you about?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
No of course not.

Well, it's impossible to tell, isn't it? You have only come up with vague accusations, but not given one single piece of evidence to back them up.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Winther apparently uses his position as a teacher to influence his pupils and pass on his hate towards people, who have different believes of his own.

I find it very impressive when a teacher can get students so interested that they get off their butts and actively seek out information for themselves. That you are so unwilling to educate kids (or anyone else, for that matter) is only testament of your lack of understanding how important education is.

It seems you felt like you were being harrassed by Mogens Winter and his students. Why didn't you file a formal complaint with the Ministry of Education? If you really were harrassed, then I doubt that Mogens Winther would still be working as a teacher today.

Wait, he is. Gee, golly....

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Noone in the " alternative " invornment here in DK has ever pursued any skeptics because his or hers attitudes.

Another lie. I was pursued by Danish astrologers to reveal not just my home address, but also who my employer was, as well as giving up my birth data, so I could be "analyzed" so they could find out why I was such a horrible person (meaning "skeptic").

Lie after lie after lie from you.

Accusation after accusation after accusation from you.

[DanishDynamite]

Mogens Winther:Karens flexible memory has been amazing – also concerning

her efforts to avoid the JREF test (http://www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm) :D Nice link, Mogens.


Karen Boesen:The fact is, that I will NEVER answer any question, no matter if an astrologer is asking me or if it is a skeptic.What, pray tell, are you doing here then? This is a discussion forum, not a ranting forum.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
What, pray tell, are you doing here then? This is a discussion forum, not a ranting forum.
To smear skeptics and sell her book. Isn't that obvious??

[Karen Boesen]

CFL: "It seems you felt like you were being harrassed by Mogens Winter and his students. Why didn't you file a formal complaint with the Ministry of Education? If you really were harrassed, then I doubt that Mogens Winther would still be working as a teacher today."

As said by Simonsen earlier: " your folk ( astrologers etc. ) are woo-woo`s, the sort of people, who the nazists looked at as " minor people": You can complain from now on and until the day you die. Noone will ever listen to you! "

Very nice person this Simonsen. Maybe I should also mention that he calls himself a socialist.

Also I forgot to answer Cl reg. his stories and lectures.

It is very difficult for me to understand that for instance Simonsen and CL attend a lecture on astro. They despise us as much as we despise them.
Why are they there? They are there to make trouble. They start with about 50 - 60 questions, they do not wait for an answer, they just continue and continue with question after question.

Why? Of course because they want to interrupt the lecture. They want people to get nervous, to start to discuss, start to get angry, even better: start to fight. If that does not happen they will start a fight themselves.

They can be compared to " the brown shirts " ( Nazists ) they were doing the dirty work. They were the ones, which more intelligent people send our into the streets to beat people, because they were jewish, homo sexuals, Jehovas Withneses etc. etc.

[Karen Boesen]

By the way, I believe that it is very strange, that I have got questions from the skeptics like:

How much money do you make?

Why do you use make - up?

Why do you always present yourself very well dressed ?

What is the name of your attorney?

What is the name of your clients?

I could go on with this.

Other astrologers have been accused of alchoholism etc. without any clues at all.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
As said by Simonsen earlier: " your folk ( astrologers etc. ) are woo-woo`s, the sort of people, who the nazists looked at as " minor people": You can complain from now on and until the day you die. Noone will ever listen to you! "

Very nice person this Simonsen. Maybe I should also mention that he calls himself a socialist.

What, pray tell, does this have to do with you being harrassed by a teacher and his students??

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Also I forgot to answer Cl reg. his stories and lectures.

It is very difficult for me to understand that for instance Simonsen and CL attend a lecture on astro. They despise us as much as we despise them.
Why are they there? They are there to make trouble. They start with about 50 - 60 questions, they do not wait for an answer, they just continue and continue with question after question.

Why? Of course because they want to interrupt the lecture. They want people to get nervous, to start to discuss, start to get angry, even better: start to fight. If that does not happen they will start a fight themselves.

Completely wrong. I can't speak for Dann, but I would ask relevant questions, that went to the core of how astrology is supposed to work. I cannot see why that would be a problem.

Apparently, it is enough of a problem for you to threaten with physical violence to anyone who dares question you.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
They can be compared to " the brown shirts " ( Nazists ) they were doing the dirty work. They were the ones, which more intelligent people send our into the streets to beat people, because they were jewish, homo sexuals, Jehovas Withneses etc. etc.

Karen has left the planet.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
By the way, I believe that it is very strange, that I have got questions from the skeptics like:

How much money do you make?

You brag about it yourself, Karen, (e.g. that you are among the top paid astrologers in DK), so of course it is relevant to ask for evidence of that.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Why do you use make - up?

Who has asked you this? Evidence?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Why do you always present yourself very well dressed ?

Who has asked you this? Evidence?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
What is the name of your attorney?

Well, it is nice to know which attorney we need to accept all those lawsuits from....

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
What is the name of your clients?

You brag about them, e.g. that they have thousands of employees. It would be in the public's interest to know which companies use your superstitious beliefs to select staff, and how they conduct business in general.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I could go on with this.

Please do. Don't forget to present evidence, who said what, when, where.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Other astrologers have been accused of alchoholism etc. without any clues at all.

Evidence?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
By the way, I believe that it is very strange, that I have got questions from the skeptics like:

How much money do you make?

Why do you use make - up?

Why do you always present yourself very well dressed ?

What is the name of your attorney?

What is the name of your clients?

I could go on with this.

Other astrologers have been accused of alchoholism etc. without any clues at all.


Who asked such things? I didn't see any of these questions posted in this forum.

[Karen Boesen]

Cleopatra,

no not here. But we have a long history behind us.

To CL:

first. You were the one, last time, the 23rd of December, who accused an astrologer of being an alchoholic, because he wanted to celebrate the day before Christmas with his wife. You even passed it on to other chatrooms. People were astonished.

www.astrologyforum.dk

The rest is from you, Simonsen, Winther and other skeptics.

In Danish:

www. astrologyforum.dk

www.astrologforeningen.dk

[Zep]

Originally posted by Jaymz
Actually in this particular thread and since it is Karen's first visit to the forum, I would have preferred if Claus and Dann had assumed a more passive role. The bad blood (and words) between the two gentlemen and Karen gives her an easy way out, and it will not be difficult for her to quote passages from Claus or Dann to show that she left the forum due to abuse, and not because she was unable to answer the simple questions she was asked.

Of course I understand why Claus and Dann have a hard time staying silent during Karen's accusations but they should both remember that sometimes it is better to let someone else argue your case.

I have read several of Dann's and Claus's arguments both here and on Skeptica.dk and I consider them both to be very informed and well spoken. However I often find them trying to beat Karen in her own game: Aggressiveness.

I find that unnecessary as well as damaging for their cause. They have a great case, and presenting it in an aggressive manner only gives Karen excactly what she wants: a chance to play the innocent victim. Well, too a certain extent, I agree.

I'm pretty certain that most of us here are NOT concerned with actually BEATING Karen - this isn't a fight, it's an investigation. I see it as a chance for someone to rationally state their case and to support it rigorously, and for others to examine it critically (hence all the questions!). I think that Claus and Dann think the same way too, but they are much more at home in the "rigorous, critical examination" phase than Karen is comfortable with currently, which could easily be seen as "attacking" for her just at the moment.

Aaah! It seems Karen has not fled the field after all - that is good!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
first. You were the one, last time, the 23rd of December, who accused an astrologer of being an alchoholic, because he wanted to celebrate the day before Christmas with his wife. You even passed it on to other chatrooms. People were astonished.

I did no such thing. I referred to what he said: Late at night, after I proved he was not able to show any evidence that astrologers had not been able to predict earthquakes, he retreated with a bottle of wine. "Escape", was the term he used. I said nothing about him being an alcoholic.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
www.astrologyforum.dk

The rest is from you, Simonsen, Winther and other skeptics.

In Danish:

www. astrologyforum.dk

www.astrologforeningen.dk

Very nice. Huge forums. In Danish. Perhaps you would find the exact quotes?

[Karen Boesen]

Zep:

Aaah! It seems Karen has not fled the field after all - that is good!


__________________

:) it seems as if Mr. Randi`s chatroom is managed just as bad as everything else, he is engaged in.

[Karen Boesen]

CL: "I did no such thing. I referred to what he said: Late at night, after I proved he was not able to show any evidence that astrologers had not been able to predict earthquakes, he retreated with a bottle of wine. "Escape", was the term he used. I said nothing about him being an alcoholic."

Wrong " Mr. Larsen". By the way I have resently read about an Indian astrologers, who could do, what you discussed.

After many hours with you, he got tired, we all understood that, and then as a joke he said, that he would " escape" with a bottle of wine together with his wife. You took that phrase, even though you knew it was a joke, twisted it into a "truth" and made him an alcoholic. THAT Mr. Larsen is the truth.

And that is, what we always experience from you skeptics. Lyiing and lying and lying.
As my assistent and my attorney say. " they are not able to prove anything. You are doing so wonderful. Because of THAT, they have started all their lies about you. "

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Wrong " Mr. Larsen".

Karen, you can't just say "wrong" and expect people to believe you. You have to prove that I am wrong.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
By the way I have resently read about an Indian astrologers, who could do, what you discussed.

You are most welcome to provide references to this Indian astrologer who could predict earthquakes. I am sure the people in Bam would simply love to know why he did not warn them in time! Those that survived, of course.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
After many hours with you, he got tired, we all understood that, and then as a joke he said, that he would " escape" with a bottle of wine together with his wife. You took that phrase, even though you knew it was a joke, twisted it into a "truth" and made him an alcoholic. THAT Mr. Larsen is the truth.

Really? A "joke"? You mean, he did not "escape" finishing a bottle of wine with his wife, well after midnight?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
And that is, what we always experience from you skeptics. Lyiing and lying and lying.

So far, you have done nothing to prove that skeptics lie.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
As my assistent and my attorney say. " they are not able to prove anything. You are doing so wonderful. Because of THAT, they have started all their lies about you. "

No evidence of this lying yet....

Perhaps you would find the exact quotes from the fora?

[Brown]

I will probably regret saying this, but...

This thread has become almost silly.

I was hoping for an adult discussion of the issues. Instead, we have overlooked the issue in favor of childish accusations and counter-accusations. I do not see the benefit of this.

[Mogens Winther]

The conclusion is very simple : the truth is maybe out there, some where, but you will never hear it from an astrologer.



/MW

[Brown]

Originally posted by Mogens Winther
The conclusion is very simple : the truth is maybe out there, some where, but you will never hear it from an astrologer.Originally posted by Karen Boesen
And that is, what we always experience from you skeptics. Lyiing and lying and lying.Come, come now. These are very sweeping statements, and they are probably not fair to astrologers or to skeptics. Neither astrologers nor skeptics always lie.

Astrologers often report information about positions of planets in the sky at the time of a particular event (such as a time of founding of a company), and they are not necessarily lying about that. This sort of information is easy to check.

And skeptics often correctly point out that the gravitational effects of those distant planets is so small as to be trivial, and therefore the planetary positions cannot materially affect the event by plantary gravity. This too is factually true, and is easy to check.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Brown
Come, come now. These are very sweeping statements, and they are probably not fair to astrologers or to skeptics. Neither astrologers nor skeptics always lie.

Oh, I dunno about astrologers... :)

Originally posted by Brown
Astrologers often report information about positions of planets in the sky at the time of a particular event (such as a time of founding of a company), and they are not necessarily lying about that. This sort of information is easy to check.

But that is not what astrologers do. Even though it is easy to point out that astrology has nothing to do with the actual sky, astrologers imagine they can predict the future, like the recent train accident in Iran.

Oh, wait. They couldn't.

Originally posted by Brown
And skeptics often correctly point out that the gravitational effects of those distant planets is so small as to be trivial, and therefore the planetary positions cannot materially affect the event by plantary gravity. This too is factually true, and is easy to check.

Most astrologers have actually abandoned this idea, and now favors different explanations. None are validated by evidence, though....

[Karen Boesen]

CL:.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Karen Boesen
By the way I have resently read about an Indian astrologers, who could do, what you discussed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You are most welcome to provide references to this Indian astrologer who could predict earthquakes. I am sure the people in Bam would simply love to know why he did not warn them in time! Those that survived, of course."
"
Yes, I shall try to remember. For the time being I am not able to.

But that is not the most important thing for the time being. What I want to show to people here, is the lack of ethics people like you represent.
Also of course when you stated that the astrologer, who - according to you - could not provide the evidence, -was an alcoholic.

You went on and on the night when this very sad incident took place:

" Now 500 people have lost their lives
now 1000 people have lost their lives
now 1500 people have lost their lives
now 2000 people have lost their lives
now 2500 people have lost their lives
now 3000 people have lost their lives "

etc. etc. you could not stop. You were debunking astrology, and that was the most important issue to you.

At last a priest - yes a priest, sorry for that, went into your excitement, a philosofer - teacher at the university of Copenhagen interrupted your totally discusting, manic screaming, asking you, where were your ethics, your feelings in regard to all these people and their families, who your were dealing with. He asked you to stop. This situation for those poor people, the ones who had died and their families, who was left behind, did not need your crazy behaviour.

All of us, who watched this, were embarrassed.

But of course Mr. Larsen. You are a bríght! You don`t have to care about the feelings of other people - maybe you are not able to? Sad!

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
CL...At last a priest - yes a priest, sorry for that, went into your excitement, a philosofer - teacher at the university of Copenhagen interrupted your totally discusting, manic screaming, asking you, where were your ethics, your feelings in regard to all these people and their families, who your were dealing with. He asked you to stop.
That's the Claus Larsen we all know and love. His maniac screaming.
Why I remember one time in a bistro in NYC, being embarassed by Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer, maniacically screaming at the poor waitress and attempting to bite her ankles until restrained by members of New York Area Skeptics.
Who, of course, do not resort to maniac screaming and passively let people steal their tape recorders.
Yeah, right.

[Zep]

BAD POST - BAD COMMS!! Deleted.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Zep
... I see no furt [/B]
No, they are invisible. The stealth furt.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
:) it seems as if Mr. Randi`s chatroom is managed just as bad as everything else, he is engaged in. Karen,

I am trying to give you a fair hearing here, a chance to put your case fairly and show your evidence for business astrology. So is Cleopatra, so is Brown, so are many others. I would remind you that Mr Randi has posted only once on this forum about you, in this thread, and that was to welcome you here. I see no further words at all from him about you here, which means he has said nothing unpleasant about you at all.

Furthermore, Mr Randi does not speak for us, we do not speak for him, we are not his employees or spokespeople or puppets, we live all around the world and have many different points of view on many things. Please be VERY clear: this is NOT "Mr Randi's chatroom", any more than the Danish astrologers' chatroom belongs to you, Karen Boesen. He does not "manage" the JREF forum, never censors it, and rarely even visits here. We skeptics do criticise Mr Randi and his thoughts and actions here - he is not above comment and he accepts this gracefully. I repeat: this is NOT "Mr Randi's chatroom". So the thoughts and words and actions of skeptics here are entirely their own, not Mr Randi's.

So if you wish to play the innocent matyr by claiming that Mr Randi has somehow organised a campaign against you here on this forum then you are incredibly mistaken and wrong.

You, and any other astrologers who wish to, are more than welcome to be here and participate in our forum, and we insist that your words be yours and yours alone. You must be allowed to say here precisely what you wish to say.

However it does your words no good at all, and indeed a lot of harm, if you continually use them to make unfounded personal snipes at people - ad hominem attacks. That is merely childish playground bickering, and we consider that when people resort to that sort of thing, it means they have no real evidence at all. That makes for dull conversations here, so we will usually talk about something else instead.

But since you are new here, Karen, and especially since we are keen to hear your input, can I please ask that you stick to the subjects at hand and refrain from any more personal attacks.

Next point: If you have personal issues with Claus and Dann and Mogens and other Danish skeptics, please take them up elsewhere. We do not care to see some Danes fighting a petty personal battle here. That is not what this forum is for. Anyway, most of us have no idea what the heck you are all arguing about anyway - we have no idea of the history, and you don't seem to want to tell us when we ask for details. Oh well, that is your choice, but somewhere else, please.

OK, back to the topic??

[MRC_Hans]

Amen to that! Actually, there is a forum here called "flame war". Might I suggest that not only Karen, but certainly also Claus, Mogens and Dann, take their fight there. Then we could continue discussing astrology on a scientific level here.


----- Time will then show which thread get the most activity :rolleyes:.

Hans

[T'ai Chi]

I'm thinking a sandbox is the more appropriate place.

[CFLarsen]

MRC_Hans, T'ai Chi,

In a perfect world, you are right. But we are not dealing with honest people here. I personally do not sit back and let lies stand unopposed. That is also what we are here for. Don't we speak out when e.g. Sylvia Browne lies about Randi? When PSI TECH lies about finding missing children?

You bet we do.

Karen shows no inclination to discuss astrology, scientific or otherwise. But her lies and accusations will be met with facts and evidence. I don't find that "sandbox"'ing at all.

[MRC_Hans]

KB and SB not honest and sincere?? :eek:

I'm stunned. Truely stunned.

Hans

[Brown]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
But that [reporting information about positions of planets in the sky at the time of a particular event] is not what astrologers do. Even though it is easy to point out that astrology has nothing to do with the actual sky, astrologers imagine they can predict the future, like the recent train accident in Iran.Actually, I think some of them do. I believe there was a television program aired a few years ago (sorry, can't remember the name or the network... it might have been John Stossel on ABC but I'm not sure) in which two astrologers were independently asked to prepare horoscopes for a particular person who was born at a particular time. The astrologers both correctly identified what planets were rising, and what "houses" were involved, and so forth. In other words, they independently checked their almanacs and made some calculations and saw basically the same arrangement of the heavens at the time of this person's birth. So far so good.

The conclusions that they drew from the arrangement, however, were strikingly different from one another, and many of the conclusions were clearly way off base. Both astrologers passionately asserted that their work was based in science and mathematics, and yet their opinons, predictions and advice showed no consistency at all. In fields of science and mathematics, there is not necessarily 100 percent agreement on everything, but there is always some sort of consensus. With the astrologers, there was virtually no consensus (and if I remember right, the things they did agree on were inconsistent with the facts.)Originally posted by CFLarsen
Most astrologers have actually abandoned this idea [gravitational effect], and now favors different explanations...I understand this you are correct about this. The idea of gravitational influence was popular at one time, but has since fallen out of favor because it is inconsistent with formulas derevied from empirical evidence.

[CFLarsen]

Brown,

Ah, let me clarify: I did not mean that they don't use computers (if they used almanacs, I think the tv show would have been in black&white!) to calculate the positions of the planets.

What I was pointing to was that these data do not correspond to the actual positions of the planets. That's why Mozart is both a Capricorn and an Aquarius. (http://www.skepticreport.com/astrology/astrotime.htm)

Here's a comparison of how the two main astrologies, Western (Tropical) and Eastern (Sidereal) conflict:

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/astrosch01.gif

Of course, the Eastern zodiac is a few days off, too. None of the astrologies are using the correct star signs.

I can see that my sentence "But that is not what astrologers do" could have been worded better.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey

That's the Claus Larsen we all know and love. His maniac screaming.
Why I remember one time in a bistro in NYC, being embarassed by Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer, maniacically screaming at the poor waitress and attempting to bite her ankles until restrained by members of New York Area Skeptics.
Who, of course, do not resort to maniac screaming and passively let people steal their tape recorders.
Yeah, right.
I understand that this little quip is being repeated as the truth on Danish astrology boards by KB. It was a joke, as anyone who knows about "strong US beer" would be able to discern. Also, the "Yeah, right" at the end should give it away.
The point of the quip and the previous post about Claus as a berserker Viking was that both could not be further from the truth.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
I understand that this little quip is being repeated as the truth on Danish astrology boards by KB. It was a joke, as anyone who knows about "strong US beer" would be able to discern. Also, the "Yeah, right" at the end should give it away.
The point of the quip and the previous post about Claus as a berserker Viking was that both could not be further from the truth.

Well....the part about "maniacal screaming" is true, but only when at a McCartney concert.... ;)

[dann]

Jaymz: “You can't take away the fact that she will always feel justified, I agree. But you can take away the "proof" by using a tone as for instance Zep and Brown (amongst others) have done in this thread.”

dann: No, Jaymz, you can’t possibly take away the proof by using any kind of tone. There is one reason why good behaviour will never serve its purpose in a discussion with people like Karen Boesen: If they have not got an actual quotation that they can use to discredit their opponents, all they have to do is invent one. And they do so, frequently.

Karen Boesen: "As said by Simonsen earlier: " your folk ( astrologers etc. ) are woo-woo`s, the sort of people, who the nazists looked at as " minor people": You can complain from now on and until the day you die. Noone will ever listen to you!" "

dann: You, Jaymz, are probably well aware of the fact that I never said anything remotely similar to this 'quotation' attributed to me. This is not just a question of Karen Boesen's inability to translate from Danish into English. Nothing is lost in this translation. This quotation does not exist and never existed anywhere in any language! This is fiction! If you make a search at www.astrologforeningen.dk using the word woowoo, what you get from my hand is a link like this:
[I]Af dann simonsen indsendt tirsdag, d. 16. september, 2003 - 13:23:
http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html
22. Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements.[I]

dann: You won’t find any attempts from my hand (or anybody else’s, I presume) at trying to treat the astrologers, even theoretically, like the Nazis treated Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals or communists.
When Karen Boesen gets going, however, it isn’t very difficult for her to invent the ‘facts’ that she finds necessary to ‘prove’ that sceptics are very bad people.

Karen Boesen: "It is very difficult for me to understand that for instance Simonsen and CL attend a lecture on astro. They despise us as much as we despise them."

dann: I never attended a lecture on astrology, not even once, nor do I despise astrologers in general (and – in general – they don’t despise me), but I might consider despising those who are so completely unable to distinguish between reality and their own imagination that they probably don’t even know when they are dealing with one or the other. This may not impair you very much as a business astrologer, but it makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with these people. Karen Boesen probably knows that I never said anything like this, but since she finds it necessary for the sake of the argument, she feels justified in inventing the kind of quotation that would prove her right.

Karen Boesen: “Both CL and Simonsen were about to be expelled from this skeptic forum because of their way of communication.
But then all the skeptics started to fight each other, and the whole board was closed down. It was extremely funny. All we astrologers leaned back and laughed. Simonsen among others were called " a religious skeptic " etc. etc. They had only allowed CL to be there for so long, because they thought that he was about 20 years old. ( He has passed his forties. )”

dann: The facts in this case are as follows: I actually was banned from the so-called skeptic forum, not because of my ”way of communication”, however, but because I tended to disagree with the moderator/owner of the board, a Satanist posing as a skeptic.
“All the sceptics” never started to fight each other on the board, but the owner did shut it down. Among other things, he called me “an old religious man”. He gave proof to this claim by quoting professors at the University of Copenhagen and their criticism of my book about new-age religions. He was later forced to admit that the alleged quotation, if it existed at all, concerned somebody else. (It was hard not to, since I never wrote a book about this subject!) Nor am I in any way religious, by the way.
Claus was never actually banned from the board, but the moderator often threatened to do so – for the same reason that he banned me, and not because of Claus’ ”way of communication”.
So, Jaymz, it is simply not right when you say that, the less Karen has to work with the better. You cannot possibly put a limit to what Karen Boesen has to work with. Even the sky is not the limit in this case. Being a true astrologer, she is only limited by her imagination.
And I would never consider "trying to beat Karen at her own game", Jaymz. I wouldn’t be able to make up the lies that she is capable of. In the case of the quotation about Toni Haugen, the psychiatrist, I made specific references to the astrologers' board and the word that you can use to find the discussion. You know that I don’t lie, Claus and Mogens know that I don’t lie, but to everybody else, and in particular to Cleo who asked the question, this is probably a very efficient way of raising doubts about the truth of my messages:

"BTW. Reg. the " story " on Simonsen!
You believe that? No problems at all. How strange.
Well I know, what happened and I know that Simonsen is lying.
Did that occur to you at all?
__________________
Karen Boesen


PS Karen Boesen's latest 'fact' about Claus biting a waitress' ankle can be found at Den Røde Tråd: www.astrologforeningen.dk

Af Karen Boesen (kb) indsendt torsdag, d. 19. februar, 2004 - 07:38:

[Jaymz]

Originally posted by dann
Jaymz: [I] There is one reason why good behaviour will never serve its purpose in a discussion with people like Karen Boesen: If they have not got an actual quotation that they can use to discredit their opponents, all they have to do is invent one. And they do so, frequently.

I must admit Dann, that the fact that Karen Boesen is already trying to use Jeff Coreys ironic statement to miscredit Claus, really proves your point beyond any doubt.

I didn't realize it before but I understand now that nothing is too low for this woman. I am amazed that a number of Danish astrologers allow themselves to be associated with her.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Jaymz
I must admit Dann, that the fact that Karen Boesen is already trying to use Jeff Coreys ironic statement to miscredit Claus, really proves your point beyond any doubt.

I explained it to her in Danish, and she had this to say:

Yeah, right. We all know your ability to talk around the issue. Of course you bit the waitress in the ancle, or tried to in your intoxicated state. Don't you think you should try some antabus?

And:

You know what, perhaps I should mention to you that I have had more than one client, who has had very good results from taking - or is taking - the "Sober Alcoholic" cure. Have you tried that? I am not aware of it's real name, but your doctor can probably help you with that.

The presentation is always the same: "Hello, my name is Claus Larsen, I am a sober alcoholic!" It is part of the therapy that you at once admit what you are.

There is more, but she tops it with an allusion to Corey's joke:

How did you get away from it? Overthere, people are very quick to file lawsuits for huge compensations. Was that why you escaped to Denmark, head over heels? You know, a little like Dracula - with the blood dripping out of the mouth.

I don't know if I may be so indiscreet to ask, but: Do you only bite when you have been drinking, or is that something that can come over you at any time?
Source (http://www.astrologforeningen.dk/discus/messages/61/1615.html?1077208369#POST21888)

Karen Boesen will stop at nothing.

Originally posted by Jaymz
I didn't realize it before but I understand now that nothing is too low for this woman. I am amazed that a number of Danish astrologers allow themselves to be associated with her.

That is the really sad part. It doesn't matter what any astrologer will do, nobody speaks out against it. They cover for each other, and accept the lies - as long as it is meant to hurt their critics.

[smoke]

I've probably missed this somewhere but why won't Karen take the $1M challenge?

So many benefits - the money, the publicity, the 'in your face' to skeptics. Amazing that she won't go for it....

[Mogens Winther]

Let me adress some of the technical questions, which these business astrologers do not dare to answer.


First of all the question of how to correct a horoscope.


Astrologers often work with two set of birth data :

1) - the official birth hour + day - as registered by the hospital.

2) - the astrological birth data, specifying exactly at what hour the planets did infect the newborn child's brain.

The latter may be estimated by moving the birth hour forth and back, until the horoscope will fit additional data - e.g. year of graduation, year of marriage, etc.

With companies, a common correction point is the first day registered on the stock trade list.

Several amazing results may occur - another Danish business astrologer, Mr Giber (www.giber.dk) once even interchanged the birth order of two twins - in order optimize their horoscopes.

In general - astrologers however disagree on both which data, and which method should be applied during a birth data correction.

In Scandinavia, people prefer the socalled Kündig Correction, other astrologers apply the Kepler or Naibod methods. However - this is not the only controversy.

Astrologers usually divide the horizon into 12 zones - similar to compass directions . House 1 is approximately East - this may vary a bit from hour to hour.

House 10 points to the solar culmination - at Northern latitudes, this means straight South.

Each house has its own meaning - like a monopoly game. House 2 is the house of money. Zodiac sign number 2 was Taurus, so of course, Karen writes :

A company, born in Taurus, is par excellence a company strongly connected to finance. Or should be. The entire banking sector is one example.

This combination is a bit strange, the compass directions say houses are more or less fixed, South is South, all day long. However - the zodiac signs are moving fast - one full rotation within 24 hours.

Connecting the fixed house #2 with a moving zodiac sign #2 is maybe easy to remember - but just as stupid as relating Lions with Lemons, because both objects do start with the same letter "L".

Nevertheless, that is the way business astrologers work.

One more amazing example - house number 8 is the house of Death. The planet Mars in that house will give you a dramatic death, including "sharp metal knifes, etc.."

Zodiac number 8 is the Scorpion, so combining house #8 with zodiac #8 we now understand why Karen did claim that Scorpions often work :

"as Funeral Directors".

In addition, the system of houses poses several internal conflicts. If you ask an astrologer to make a horoscope for your company, please avoid the subsolar latitudes : a company born at + 23.47 Degrees latitude means that the Sun will pass Zenith at noon on June 23.

Zenith is neither South or North, so now it is not possible to adjust the 10th house direction, as a consequence the whole horoscope will fall apart.

Similar problems will happen in case you have a goldmine company in Greenland or Canada - at these latitudes, the first house direction may be missing, and again the house system breaks apart.

To make problems even worse - astrologers do neither agree on where these houses are placed, nor how big these houses are.

If you click here (http://www.skeptica.dk/BAV_bogen/Images/s119.gif), you will see a comparison of 4 different systems - these systems may even turn upside down if you move to Southern latitudes.

Dean and Mather do mention one astrological congress which tried to solve the discussion on which house system should be applied, however - the conference did end up in one big shouting match... (oh no - not again..)

Maybe the best description of astrological culture was given by ex astrologer Joanna Asmun (1996):

"Astrologers are less literate than average ; they write badly and they read badly; there is almost no critical response; errors are ignored, corrections are not acknowledged. "

"They answer off the top of their heads., (quote from memory) ... and then get sidetracked into arguing about who's a liar... "
Ivan Kelly (http://www.astrology-and-science.com/pdf/c4-concepts.pdf)


As Richard Dawkins wrote :

Astrology is neither harmless nor fun, and we should see it as an enemy of truth.


/ Mogens Winther

[Zep]

Karen,

If you are still reading here, please indicate if you are interested in continuing a serious discussion with us or not on this thread.

many thanks
zep

[Zep]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
MRC_Hans, T'ai Chi,

In a perfect world, you are right. But we are not dealing with honest people here. I personally do not sit back and let lies stand unopposed. That is also what we are here for. Don't we speak out when e.g. Sylvia Browne lies about Randi? When PSI TECH lies about finding missing children?

You bet we do.

Karen shows no inclination to discuss astrology, scientific or otherwise. But her lies and accusations will be met with facts and evidence. I don't find that "sandbox"'ing at all. Claus, WE can trade blows with you quite happily if we disagree, because we all know how to do it properly. But Karen Boesen and the other astrologers have still to learn these skills. Let them have their say, and allow us at least to "have a cup of coffee with them", before you come down like a Viking. No doubt, any differences in the facts will be sorted out soon enough.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Zep
Claus, WE can trade blows with you quite happily if we disagree, because we all know how to do it properly. But Karen Boesen and the other astrologers have still to learn these skills. Let them have their say, and allow us at least to "have a cup of coffee with them", before you come down like a Viking. No doubt, any differences in the facts will be sorted out soon enough.
I disagree. Claus is a bit over the top at times, but as our Euro representative of NYASk, we support his efforts to bite the ankles of these fools. And goniffs.
Totally.

[Karen Boesen]

ZEP:

No, I will not continue the " discussion ". I have learned from the past week that there is too much despise etc. on both sides. Skeptics towards people like myself for instance, who hold a different approach to life from their own.
From my point of view these people are more or less to be compared with the Taleban movement in Afganistan.

But of course there have been exceptions. Like you and Mr. Brown, who seem to be more open-minded that skeptics in general.

Kind regards,

Karen Boesen

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Zep
Claus, WE can trade blows with you quite happily if we disagree, because we all know how to do it properly. But Karen Boesen and the other astrologers have still to learn these skills. Let them have their say, and allow us at least to "have a cup of coffee with them",

Like I said, nobody is stopping either of you. But if I am attacked, I defend myself.

Originally posted by Zep
before you come down like a Viking.

I resent that stereotype. Vikings, although the odd "rape, plunder & pillage" did occur, Vikings were also traders and settlers. Nyah! :p

Originally posted by Zep
No doubt, any differences in the facts will be sorted out soon enough.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
ZEP:

No, I will not continue the " discussion ". I have learned from the past week that there is too much despise etc. on both sides. Skeptics towards people like myself for instance, who hold a different approach to life from their own.
From my point of view these people are more or less to be compared with the Taleban movement in Afganistan.

But of course there have been exceptions. Like you and Mr. Brown, who seem to be more open-minded that skeptics in general.

Kind regards,

Karen Boesen

Well....there you have it, Zep. It doesn't matter how nice you are to Karen, you are still grouped with the Talebans, and therefore is not worthy of Karen's time.

Does that answer your question?

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Claus is a bit over the top at times

Better to be over the top than over the hill... ;)

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
but as our Euro representative of NYASk

What, I'm not Eurotrash anymore?

[Jaymz]

Karen, would you like to comment on the way that you have twisted Jeff's words to ridicule Claus on the danish astrology board?

Do you think such actions make you better or worse than Claus and Dann?

Aren't you afraid that obvious lies from a prominent astrologer like yourself might hurt the entire astrology community?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
ZEP:

No, I will not continue the " discussion ". I have learned from the past week that there is too much despise etc. on both sides. Skeptics towards people like myself for instance, who hold a different approach to life from their own.
From my point of view these people are more or less to be compared with the Taleban movement in Afganistan.

But of course there have been exceptions. Like you and Mr. Brown, who seem to be more open-minded that skeptics in general.

Kind regards,

Karen Boesen

Please stop "threatening" us that you will quit
the discussion. You don't discuss anyway. Don't reply if you wish, none forces you to but stop insulting people.

Since you mentioned Taliban. I think that they would appreciate your stance here since they do not discuss anything, they do not accept questions and the do nothing but accusing people.

This is too much . Please stop.

[Karen Boesen]

Jaymz,

what is your problem?

I have never heard any skeptic, who has risen his or hers voice, when astrologers were treated unfair. What is the difference?
I have an e-mail here saying that Mr. Larsen has been drunk in NYC and that he tried to bite the waitress in her angle. I have not passed anything on, which is untrue.
Oh, you are claiming that there was some irony in the post? I did not see that.
The above sort of " argumentaion " is just the kind, which we astrologers and others experience from the skeptics again and again.

I went in here to try to show people, that Randi was printing lie after lie about me.

One week he insinuated that I worked together with criminals!
He ONLY printed a retraction, BECAUSE I treaten to sue him.

I could go on and on wiht excamles of this kind.
The Danish skeptics have a web, which is full of lies about me and other people. Does that make you feel embarrassed?

I shall not vaste more time in here.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Jaymz,

what is your problem?

I have never heard any skeptic, who has risen his or hers voice, when astrologers were treated unfair. What is the difference?
You have now. Three different people on this thread have voiced support for your right to express yourself here, and have suggested that your critics quiet their voices long enough for you to be heard. (Your critics have stated strongly their reasons not to keep quiet, but that does not change the fact that here, on this thread, other skeptics have stood up for you.)

I have an e-mail here saying that Mr. Larsen has been drunk in NYC and that he tried to bite the waitress in her angle. I have not passed anything on, which is untrue.
Oh, you are claiming that there was some irony in the post? I did not see that.
The author of that post has posted again explaining that it was meant sarcastically. What more do you need? The honorable thing for you to do would be to tell the truth, and perhaps even apologise. Will you behave honorably, or will you behave as you accuse your opponents of behaving?

The above sort of " argumentaion " is just the kind, which we astrologers and others experience from the skeptics again and again.

I went in here to try to show people, that Randi was printing lie after lie about me.
But you have brought no evidence! Again and again, the people here have expressed their willingness to listen to you. All they require is that you back up your claims--and this is the same requirement we ask of any who post here.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
What, I'm not Eurotrash anymore? [/B]
But you're our Eurotrash, even though you didn't bite that waitress's angle.

[Karen Boesen]

Mercutio:

"... , or will you behave as you accuse your opponents of behaving? "

For the time being I have decided that I will not send out this stuff as a press release ( Winther - one of the aggressive skeptics uses to operate that way).
Neiter will I use it against the skeptics ( in this case Mr. Larsen ) next time I am interviewed by a journalist. Normal behaviour for a skeptic too in Denmark.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Mercutio:

"... , or will you behave as you accuse your opponents of behaving? "

For the time being I have decided that I will not send out this stuff as a press release ( Winther - one of the aggressive skeptics uses to operate that way).
Niether will I use it against the skeptics ( in this case Mr. Larsen ) next time I am interviewed by a journalist. Normal behaviour for a skeptic too in Denmark.

I have been following this thread from the moment it started and I have the following observations to make.

1) you have refused to answer the questions put by everyone here. I can almost understand a certain reticence to respond to CFL, He's a hard sceptic who plays by hard sceptic rules and there seems to be some history between you guys. However I'm not interested in this little feud, no do I believe are many of the more "casual" sceptics here. I would just like to see some answers. Care to provide some?

2) You are making the mistake of assuming that there is only one approach that sceptics use. In fact you are almost relying on it. It is very easy when pressure is applied to scream "foul" or "bully" and then use this as a reason to clam up. Well from what I have seen of this thread, many of the posters have expressed a genuine interest in your claims, your methods and any evidence you may have. So far you have chosen to evade this approach too.

3) You seem to be forgetting that it is you who are claiming that business astrology has benefits. We are simply saying "OK, if thats the case, show us the benefits!" if you refuse to do that then some WILL pursue any irregularities evident in your previously published comments. All of this could be silenced simply by providing the evidence.

Now is there a common theme to the things I have listed above? You may be able to deduce that we want some indication that what you claim is based in truth. Failing that you will continue to go around the same roundabout, unfortunately generating yet more inconsistency to have thrown in your face in any subsequent rounds.

The ball is firmly in your court I think.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Mercutio:

"... , or will you behave as you accuse your opponents of behaving? "

For the time being I have decided that I will not send out this stuff as a press release ( Winther - one of the aggressive skeptics uses to operate that way).
Neiter will I use it against the skeptics ( in this case Mr. Larsen ) next time I am interviewed by a journalist. Normal behaviour for a skeptic too in Denmark. It is, I guess, admirable that you will not release what you now know to be lies as a press release...for the time being. I would hope that you would choose never to knowingly lie to the press, but that might just be me. I would also hope that you would publicly retract statements that you now have been made aware are untrue. Do you plan on doing that? (I admit I have not checked the sites to be certain you have, in fact made these statements--there is a language barrier for me--and if you have not, in fact, passed on the waitress story, then I apologize, of course.) The "high road" is open...

For the record, I too wish to hear more about business astrology. I am teaching a class which will begin a section on astrology next week, and I would love for them to be able to read your views and see your evidence. I would have hoped that this thread would serve as good reading for them; it still could, if you would please do as Brown, Zep, and Cleopatra have asked and show us your evidence. You have the chance to tell my students what you want them to hear; I sincerely hope you will do so.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
One week he insinuated that I worked together with criminals!
He ONLY printed a retraction, BECAUSE I treaten to sue him.

No, he retracted it because he found out he had made a mistake.

You are very quick to threaten with lawsuits, but they never emerge. However, feel free to sue Randi when he comes to Denmark.

I do not have to look at your horoscope to know that you won't.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
No, he retracted it because he found out he had made a mistake.

You are very quick to threaten with lawsuits, but they never emerge. However, feel free to sue Randi when he comes to Denmark.

I do not have to look at your horoscope to know that you won't.
Claus, would you mind not inviting people to sue Randi?

[Linda]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dear Cleopatra,

I have asked webmaster to remove me from this list.

I hope that you will enjoy the company of the gentlemen here in future.

Our policy is not to remove members from the message boards at their request. If they don't wish to participate anymore, they can just stop posting.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Claus, would you mind not inviting people to sue Randi?

Only if you explain why. Karen has claimed she will do it, and if she feels she needs to...

[Blondin]

What the hell does any of this "he said, she said, I know you are but what am I" bull crap have to do with the validity of business astrology?

I think a few of us have asked some very straight forward questions which have not been addressed in any way. All I see is personal attacks and pathetic attempts to support your position (or garner sympathy) by attacking the methods and ethics of some of your detractors.

Have you ever done any double-blind testing to compare the fortunes, successes and/or failures of corporations, executives and employees using the services of a business astrologer with those who do not?

If not, why not? Would you be prepared to conduct such tests? If not , why not?

If you are serious about wanting the skeptics off your back then why not prove unambiguously and conclusively that you can do what you claim?

Name one major benefit of business astrology and then prove you can provide it or shut up and get used to the sniping.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Blondin
I think a few of us have asked some very straight forward questions which have not been addressed in any way. All I see is personal attacks and pathetic attempts to support your position (or garner sympathy) by attacking the methods and ethics of some of your detractors.You know, there are a few posters to this board whose posts I do not care to read. I put them on my "ignore" list, and do not pay any attention to them. Perhaps Ms. Boesen would consider putting her detractors on her "ignore" list, and not paying any attention to them.

It would be a shame if personal squabbles were to interfere with our desire to learn about business astrology from a business astrologer through a question-and-answer process.

[Blondin]

Originally posted by Brown
It would be a shame if personal squabbles were to interfere with our desire to learn about business astrology from a business astrologer through a question-and-answer process.
Well said, Brown.

And I apologize for the tone of my last post.

Karen, could you please stick to the point? You appear to be purposely trying to avoid the hard questions and that doesn't do anything for your credibility.

[CFLarsen]

Blondin,

That's what I don't understand. Karen and other astrologers make a goddamn living from proving their claims, don't they?

Karen says herself, when asked "Do you make a good living from your trade?" (Emphasis mine)

"Yes, among the twenty professional astrologers who can make a living from it, I am probably at the top. I think it is only (laughing a little) Ole Giber who makes more (http://www.giber.dk/job.htm), because I am not doing sun sign astrology, there's a lot of money in that, but it is also boring. But most of the money I make go back to the milieu in one form or another. E.g. I am sponsoring a big international business astrology congress each year. I don't have a summer house or anything. I live in an ordinary flat on Frederikssundsvej in Brønshøj, so if I were that big capitalist that some would like to make me, I would be living up North on Strandvejen (ed: A very rich part of Copenhagen). I am not interested in making money for money's sake, it doesn't interest me at all."
Source: Visdomsmagasinet, June 2003 (http://www.visdomsmagasinet.dk/pdf/Magasin%20X%209-s3-s7-web.pdf)

All they have to do is pick one of their success-stories and post the evidence. Easy peasy.

But they don't.

It is odd....

(Edited to add link)

[Karen Boesen]

Client Interview Allan Ramby © Karen Boesen

Tlf. Nr. on the following web:

www.erhvervsastrologi.dk - English version. Analysis.

Allan Ramby owns and is the CEO of Ramby & Partnere - a real estate company focusing on business estates and primarily operating for large companies. The company manages business sales in Denmark as well as internationally and is very active in the society of MIPEM. Allan Ramby has a Masters degree in national economics and has formerly been employed with among others Christian Hjort. Allan Ramby has used business astrology for app. 12 years. Allan Ramby can be contacted by phone + 45 39 76 08 00.

Why did you choose to contact a business astrologer?
From my youth I was interested in astrology without going into any greater depth in the subject. This is why I registered for a course held by Børsen some years ago - Astrology as a management tool. Karen Boesen lectured at the course on among other things personal analysis, company analysis, manager and employee selection and development. I found it very interesting. A year prior to this course I had been meeting with an amateur astrologer who gave a sort of prognosis about my partnership and my financial situation. I had never moved further with this astrologer. At the course I suddenly found that astrology had a higher level. Also Karen Boesen appeared a presentable business woman, who could have stepped right out of a board room - it filled me with confidence that astrology could actually be a serious phenomenon. A colleague of mine arranged a meeting with Karen Boesen and came back with a report of an interesting conversation. This whetted my appetite and I set up a meeting for myself.

Have you used any other forms of consulting in your company?
Only once. I was contacted by a staff recruiting firm in 1997, and after a brief conversation with me, they presented me with candidates - without my asking them to do so. Just in case I spoke to the candidates, as it would have been a pity to miss out on a potential good employee. I ended up sending a couple of them to my business astrologer, and I actually hired one of them. But my experience with the staff recruiting firm was unpleasant. I didn't feel that the operated in a fair manner and they didn't seem trustworthy.

Was there any particular event in your business which induced you to choose to contact a business astrologer?
At the time when I contacted the astrologer, my company had quite serious problems. There was problems in relation to employees and partners, and there were latent financial problems. All problems were acknowledged - I was curious to see what an astrologer could advise me to do.

What value, in your opinion, can business astrology add to your company?
I can mention three areas where business astrology in my opinion excels. They are

planning
prognostication, and
resource allocation.
Can you get this type of advice from a non-astrological consulting firm?
Yes, in fact I can - but the advice is not as exact. Many large companies have planning departments and budget departments that operate based on former results, statistics etc. They are often very good indeed, but it takes a great amount of resources, experience and tradition as well as a comprehensive foundation of statistics and analyses to bring about a credible counseling. With astrology you get to the core immediately and directly. My attention is pointed to a number of precisely defined areas to dig into - for a far smaller investment.

Can you give any examples of business astrology having given you advice that notably changed the decision process in your company?
It is more a case of examples of advice I couldn't have received anywhere else, and which has consolidated my business. The original analyses from Karen Boesen were based on a company horoscope which was in part worked out by the amateur astrologer I mentioned earlier - specifically, I had selected a day, and then asked the astrologer for at good time. The company actually did not have a good horoscope and it was consequently dissolved. I was made aware of that there was no reason to hold on to this horoscope, and I had a new one constructed based on my natal horoscope. This has provided a much better foundation for my company. But already when I dissolved the partnership, my attention was directed to a problematic - and hidden - financial situation, and this prevented me form losing unnecessary funds. Another example is the overall strategy for business areas in my company. The entire real estate market was bearish in the 1990'ies, many large companies had to shut down or were at least in a very frail situation. Through the astrological analyses I was told that I had a good chance of working with international activities, and thereby I could specialize and differentiate myself from other colleagues on the market. In the given situation with a tough market, I dared take the chance to get international assignments and was successful, because I had confirmation that I could put resources into this field. Another area where the advice has helped me, is a recommendation to enter into networks. International networking has characterized my company through the later years. I also work more and more with freelancers - instead of many employees - and this allows me to haul in relevant specialists to the jobs I have. And then generally on counseling: As a client with Karen Boesen, I have never been told that I should do so and so. I see a high degree of ethics and professionalism with her, and she encourages one to take charge and responsibility. I am shown opportunities and threats and a framework within which I can act freely.

In which areas do you make use of business astrology?
In my company I use business astrology for structural analysis, strategic planning and prognostication, moves, business areas (abroad) and employee selection.

Are there any reasons for not selecting certain fields of business astrology?
My company's size - it is comparatively small - makes certain fields irrelevant.

What is your attitude to the criticism of astrology and using it for recruitment?
In my experience the critics haven't bothered to investigate the area properly.

What feedback have you received from people who have participated in an employee selection process?
I have had several employee selections - the first time was in 1991. Initially I had advertised for a consultant, and from the stack of applicants I asked a handful to an interview. I chose four people and sent them on to a conversation with Karen Boesen. I told the four potential employees, that they were completely free to decide whether or not to participate in this conversation and that it wasn't disqualifying to say no. Everyone was ready, however, and one was even very keen. Then I informed them about what the consultation would consist of - a personal analysis and a prognosis. One applicant didn't want the prognosis - and we respected that. The result was that my own first priority was also selected by Karen Boesen - but this person got another job, before we managed to secure him. Out of the three remaining applicants one was rejected because of lack of credibility - hidden for me, but visible in the horoscope. This person otherwise appeared very agreeable, and I could easily have chosen the person, if I hadn't involved an astrologer. I ended up hiring one of the other two candidates. I am well aware that this statement is provocative - imagine someone being rejected based on what an astrologers says. I can only invite you to consider what you reaction would have been, if a psychologist had said something similar. Not a single eyebrow would have been lifted then. The consultations with the astrologer were confidential, by the way, and all applicants had to permit the astrologer to communicate information to me. Here I would like to point out that you must be very observant about the astrologers professional proficiency and moral integrity - both in general because of common courtesy to other people, but certainly also because of society's present view of business astrology. The feedback from the candidates I have involved in an astrological employee selection process has been neutral or positive - never negative. One applicant in 1997 had already participated in another personality test, and the comment was that this test was very similar to the astrological personal analysis, but the prognosis was something quite unique and very positive.

Are you open about your use of business astrology?
Yes - but diplomatic. I have been cited in papers, radio and television about my use of astrology, for instance about employee selection which is a controversial subject, so my use of astrology is definitely not hidden. But on a daily basis I evaluate others opinions with tentative questions. If people are uninterested, or even dislikes astrology, there is no point in my dominating the conversation with information about my use of astrology - this practice actually goes for any conversational subject. But I gladly explain to interested people about why I use astrology and what my results have been. In consequence the reaction shave been positive and people have shown more interest. If I just went about clamoring the fact everywhere, I would probably receive more marked and negative reactions. If I had been employed in a like position in a large company, I would probably have operated more discreetly on account of the general attitude of the surroundings.

What do you see as particularly positive about business astrology?
Honesty - it is straight to the point. "You can't cheat the universe."

What do you see as problematic about business astrology?
It can be difficult to use astrology pragmatically when interacting with colleagues, teams, networks, vendors and customers for the simple reason that astrology isn't universally accepted.

Have you any advice for potential users of business astrology?
It is important to choose a capable astrologer - I place great weight on professional proficiency and moral integrity. As when choosing any other form of counseling, it pays to do your research and get references. And it is a good idea to test the astrologer on a couple of other assignments before you venture into employee selection.

How do you see the perspective of the use of business astrology in the future?
This is a question for an astrologer or a clairvoyant …. The media coverage and the Internet will influence the development to a great extent - as they have already done in the case of personal astrology. Business astrology is still very new. Even I hadn't considered that you could do horoscopes for companies - and I have after all been interested in the subject. The subject demands patience and time for adaptation in the companies. The interest could also be increased by existing users of astrology. If for instance a customer experiences good service, proficiency and integrity when using a company's services, and then finds out that this company makes use of astrology, the interest can be spread that way. You don't quit working with a company just because it uses astrology. I believe that business astrology will calmly and quietly become more and more accepted.

[Karen Boesen]

I have already answered all the other questions in the earlier mails. No need to repeat them.

[Karen Boesen]

Client Interview Lone Meier © Karen Boesen


Lone Meier is an independent business woman. Today, she manages a real estate business and owns a restaurant. She currently employs 10 people. Lone Meier studied law and has during her almost 25 years of active business career worked as a private detective, as a controller in a stock exchange company and as a translator in the East Asiatic Company. Lone Meier has used business astrology for app. 10 years and has not used any other form of counseling in her companies. Lone Meier can be contacted by mobile phone +45 29 21 63 23.

Why did you choose to contact a business astrologer instead of some other form of business counseling?
Initially, I contacted an astrologer to have my personal chart done, and afterwards I also expanded this to my family. The results and the advice we received - precise, objective and mathematically founded - made me want to use this counseling for my companies.

Was there any particular event in your business which induced you to choose to contact a business astrologer?
Yes, I was in doubt about what to do. I contemplated selling part of my business and I wanted to ensure that the timing was right. What value, in your opinion, can business astrology add to your company? As mentioned before, in my experience business astrology is scientifically based and objective - this doesn't necessary apply to a row of other types of consulting. With business astrology I get an overview of what aspects are influencing what parts of my business at a given time - and then it is up to me to draw my own conclusions and make my own decisions. The responsibility of running the business still lies with me. In addition, I like having the long-term perspective to work with - instead of putting out fires. And business astrology is the only form of advice which tells me when I can carry out my plans - and when I should keep from doing so.

Can you get this type of advice from a non-astrological consulting firm?
No, I don't think I can do that. I find that other forms of conventional counseling is often very subjective - and entirely dependent on the individual consultants level and possible fads - and that these forms of advice do not leave me with the freedom of choice. It also seems to me that most large consultancy firms to a large extent employ very young people, who simply do not possess the experience required to advise company owners.

Can you give any examples of business astrology having given you advice that notably changed the decision process in your company?
Without going into detail, I can mention that I use astrological counseling very much for timing sales and buy situations and this has given me very good results.

In which areas do you make use of business astrology?
I mainly use business astrology for structure analysis of my companies, for strategic planning and for timing the establishment of new ventures.

Are there any reasons for not selecting certain fields of business astrology?
I haven't yet used business astrology for employee recruitment. This is because I have not yet had the need for an employee at a level which would justify the effort. If at some time I am hiring a manager, I will definitely use business astrology for the selection process. Among other things to ensure that the person in mind has a good prognosis for the coming couple of years as well as a personal horoscope that ensures that the person possesses precisely the qualifications that the company needs - and which would thus justify the financial investment in this person.

What is your attitude to the criticism of astrology and using it for recruitment?
That it is a society thing. Astrology is thousands of years old but the dogmas of Christianity has influenced general society away from astrology. I am fascinated by that fact that astrology - as one of only a very few forms of consulting - is constantly faced with demands for proof. There are so many other forms or more or less serious personality models which are used uncritically by the industry. With no proof whatsoever. Astrology is a tool that works - otherwise a growing number of companies wouldn't be using it - we are taking about dollars an cents here and bottom lines are important to most company owners.

Are you open about your use of business astrology?
Yes and no. Yes - no one in my company or the authorities I interact with have any doubt that I make use of business astrology. And this is accepted. On the other hand, I have no wish to enter in to ridiculous discussions with people who haven't bothered to investigate the area - so in certain situations I don't bring up the subject.

Have you any advice for potential users of business astrology?
If you are independently employed, I will definitely encourage at least a trial of business astrological counseling - instead of for instance the (sad to say) unqualified counseling you get with banks. If you try this form of consulting (astrology) I also recommend that you set off time to learn to use the tool correctly and integrate it properly in your company.

How do you see the perspective of the use of business astrology in the future?
I believe that business astrology will become more widely used. There is growing openness among the users, founded in their positive experiences, and following that, more media coverage. Also, there are more books on the market about the subject with information for potential users.

[Blondin]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
All they have to do is pick one of their success-stories and post the evidence. Easy peasy.

I don't want to see any number of success stories. Those are subjective and anecdotal.

I am interested in seeing if they can produce data to show that some group of executives or other employees, who would not have been hired if business astrology has been used, were actually bad for the company. Or vice versa.

I mean you could randomly grab a bunch of personnel files from a number of companies and give their birth data to Karen to do an analysis of each one rating their "probable" benefit to the company or likelyhood of achieving their own goals, etc. Then do a follow up on the individuals and see what their performance reviews had to say and how well they did in and for the company or if they were still employed there or fired or in jail or whatever. Surely that is not a hard test to put together with the help of an independant 3rd party and could provide some credible statistics.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Blondin
I don't want to see any number of success stories. Those are subjective and anecdotal.

Well, I did say "post the evidence".... :)

[Karen Boesen]

I can see that CL has posted the magazine: Visdomsmagasinet.

That is illegal here in Denmark!

Dann Simonsen and Mogens Winther went mad, when their photo was published by astrologers.

I have contacted the magazine right away.

[Tanja]

Out of the three remaining applicants one was rejected because of lack of credibility - hidden for me, but visible in the horoscope. This person otherwise appeared very agreeable, and I could easily have chosen the person, if I hadn't involved an astrologer. I ended up hiring one of the other two candidates.

If somebody decided not to hire me on the basis of my horoscope I would sue them with pleasure.

I do acknowledge that psychometric tests are not perfect prognostic tools. I am a psychologist and I did some psychometric testing. They have a limited prognostic validity, but they are aware of what the validity is as it had to be determined before the test was put in use. For example, a score on a test of ability correlates 0.4 with the employee's performance evaluation. Therefore the test has measurable (however small) prognostic validity.

I would be amazed if horoscopes had any measurable prognostic ability, and I would gladly have one million dollars and prove it right but I have the feeling it will not be done...

(edited for typos)

[Blondin]

I already looked at your website and saw your testimonials, Karen. Is that what you call proof? References from satisfied clients?

I can supply links to dozens of suppliers of free energy machines, laundry disks, magic crystals, healing water, etc. etc. that all have a lot more testimonials than your website (some of them from "bonafide" scientists). Does that make them all honest purveyors of genuine articles that actually do what they claim?

Do you have confidence in your abilities or not?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I can see that CL has posted the magazine: Visdomsmagasinet.

No, I have quoted from the magazine and made a proper link.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
That is illegal here in Denmark!

No it isn't. It's called "fair use", and it is international law. Look up "Bern konventionen", Karen.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Dann Simonsen and Mogens Winther went mad, when their photo was published by astrologers.

No, they pointed out that their pictures were posted without permission from their schools. You also stole a photo, remember?

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I have contacted the magazine right away.

Feel free.

[Mogens Winther]

Blondin wrote : "I think a few of us have asked some very straight forward questions which have not been addressed in any way."

Correct. But I fear you will never get straight forward answers from Karen.

This note is a bit long - but I believe you will understand.

Let me please start with this recent quote by Karen, concerning Randis newsletter.

KB : "One week he insinuated that I worked together with criminals! "

Mrs Boesens did not want to explain any details, and maybe there was a reason for that ?

As you know, Karen is "president" of an organisation, called <a href ="http://www.businessastrologers.com">ISBA</a> .

This organisation was founded back in 1997 - and very soon had mr Henry Weingarten as official webmaster , "moderator", and prominent board member.

Mr Weingarten is a wellknown astrologer who has appeared in CNN as well as <a href ="http://www.forbes.com/2003/08/26/cz_jd_0826watch.html">Forbes </a> magazine.

In addition, Mr Weingarten is editor of the astrological newsletter <a href ="http://www.afund.com"> Walltreet This Week</a>

Mr Weingarten very soon got the honour of being cosponsor on Karens first official <a href = "http://www.theness.com/articles/starsinmyeyes-nejs0204.html">"ISBA World Concerence " New York </a>.

And no doubt, mrs Boesen was excited when she could invite Henry Weingarten as main speaker at her <a href = "http://asabovesobelow.com/creativeastrology/events.htm">Danish Conference on Business Astrology, March 1999. </a>

On that Copenhagen conference, delegates from a number of astrology inclined Danish companies did pay 1000 Dollars pr person pr day - being allowed listening to mr ISBA astrologer Weingartens "High Quality" lecture concerning the consequences of the oncoming Solar Eclipse 1999.

Also back in 1999 - another interesting person, mr Ed Durante - did start an amazing business concerning an absolute worthless stock registered company.

With help of the stars - and business astrologer Weingarten -
mr Durante was able to inflate the value of these worthless stocks by 12500 percent !

The security and exchange commision wrote :
<a href = "http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr17177.htm">
"It is estimated that Durante and others reaped illegal trading profits of more than $30 million while orchestrating manipulations of U.N. Dollars Corp., Wamex Holdings Inc., Ramoil Management Ltd., Absolutefuture.com, and other stocks, through a network of promoters, market makers and brokers under their control."

</a>

The Randi letter mentioning this story is <a href = "http://www.randi.org/jr/090503.html">www.randi.org/jr/090503.html </a>

The Randi letter following <a href = "http://www.randi.org/jr/091203.html" >one week later </a> did bring a correction : that mrs Boesen had stopped her cooperation with mr Weingarten.

Nothing had however been mentioned about this unexpected divorce on <a href ="http://www.businessastrologers.com">the ISBA homepages</a> - the ISBA is a rather closed organisation, outsiders are not even allowed to read their newsletters.

However the information that Karen did not work together with former ISBA moderator and board Weingarten was given one year after their "divorce", in Danish on a Webboard for astrologers :

During an acapolyptical dogfight with one of her other (and now former) ISBA collegues, mrs Boesen in March 2000 did claim that mr Weingarten - during the 1999 "high quality" business astrology conference - was apparently making free with some assets of her astrological clients.

This is what she wrote - to the surprise of all astrologers -


<a href ="http://www.astrologyforum.dk/log/discus/html/messages/1409/258.html#POST1500">" He is a criminal, and I can proove it .. " </a>


Apparently, the ISBA has suffered several internal fightings, some fightings appear being related to the budget during Karens first ISBA conference (sponsored by Henry).

If Karens astrology is such a tremendous succes – “using it for recruitment” – how come that her own stars, her own horoscope did not warn the very moment she started to cooperate with mr Weingarten ?

Did the stars really fail, once again ?

If on the other hand these stars did not fail, and did indeed warn her about these amazing troubles, how come she did not contact the official authorities ?

The March 2002 official papers on this case may be found on this <a href = "http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/ia-2019.htm" >this page</a>

<hr>

Having learned about the amazing possibilities within Business Astrology - how come that mrs Boesen is NOT able to provide us with any documentation or facts concerning her claims on business astrology ?

But still Karen has no hesitation claiming :
<a href = "http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Kritikafastrologien%20english.htm">

"However there are some of the criteria which are determinated in connection with a scientifical testing, that we astrologers are capable of fulfilling. I can mention the empirical part. (How does
things work in real life)...... "</a>

This alone would EASILY be worth a million Dollar - but mrs Boesen has so far <a href ="http://www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm"> refused the JREF test..
</a>

In addition, mrs Boesen claims :
<a href = "http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Kritikafastrologien%20english.htm">
"The demand for inter-subjectivity is the astrologer also capable of fulfilling. This means that different astrologers are capable of reaching the same result from the the same horoscope. "
</a>

But again, she is not able to answer any of the technical questions given here, how to deal with different latitudes, tax related company positions, different house systems, etc.

We may conclude, as Ivan Kelly (CSICOP) did <a href ="http://www.astrology-and-science.com/pdf/c4-concepts.pdf"> in his article - The Concepts of Modern Astrology : a Critique </a> : '

"Astrology itself is deeply problematic from beginning to end."

"Central notions .. are too poorly developed by astrologers to amount to anything useful. There is little consensus on basic issues in astrology, and little agreement on how to settle differences among astrological techniques
and theories."

In addition , mrs Boesen has not been able to explain why she first saw all those disasters in the present LEGO case so late AFTER the press had started to write about that companys record deficit.

And concerning mrs Boesens <a href ="http://www.erhvervsastrologi.dk/erhvervsastrologi/Nytdesign/Human%20Resources1%20english.htm">astrological selection of employees</a> - mrs Boesen has no comments concerning her amazing airmchair combination of houses and signs.

Ivan Kelly again :



"Astrological symbolism is unsystematic and based on metaphors , analogies, verbal associations, and mythology, all of which are developed in different ways by astrologers with no clear way of evaluating them. "

Concerning the legal problems relating to the application of such pure phantasy methods when evaluating job applicants, mrs Boesen has no comments either.

So - here we are - nothing indicates that mrs Boesen and her <a href ="http://www.businessastrologers.com/">ISBA association of Kepler Business College Board members</a> will stop running away from any scientific test, as they did following the <a href ="http://www.skeptica.dk/mw/astrologi/randi.htm">JREF offer</a>, and as they did following <a href = "http://www.theness.com/articles/starsinmyeyes-nejs0204.html">Jon Blumenfelds test suggestion</a>.


/MW




"Who ever claims to predict the future by means of the stars, is either fooling himself, or trying to fool someone else". - Gauquelin

[Karen Boesen]

Reg. Mr. Winther`s post.

It will take me more than an hour to prove that he is passing on more lies, lies and lies,

I give up. These extremely skeptics are amazing. I have never met anyone, who is THAT dishonest.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Reg. Mr. Winther`s post.

It will take me more than an hour to prove that he is passing on more lies, lies and lies,

I give up. These extremely skeptics are amazing. I have never met anyone, who is THAT dishonest.

Just pick one of MW's lies, Karen. Just one. Then prove he is a liar.

That cannot possibly take long.

[Blondin]

Clause, I bet if you could find a dozen or so people willing to give interviews in which they would swear that you are a heck of a swell guy Karen would realize how she's misjudged you and actually become your friend.

:D

Okay, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm trying to make a point. Don't you see, Karen, that everything you've provided so far falls into the category of "Smoke & Mirrors" not evidence?

You appear to be using the tactics of a deceiver rather than someone who genuinely believes her own press.



Edit: had to fix a spelling mistake.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Blondin
You appear to be using the tactics of a deceiver rather than someone who genuinely believes her own press.

Ayup.

[Karen Boesen]

Try to prove this is a lie!

It won`t take long.


Jeff CoreyNew York Skeptic Registered: Aug 2001Location: Long Island, NYPosts: 1579 quote: Originally posted by Karen Boesen CL...At last a priest - yes a priest, sorry for that, went into your excitement, a philosofer - teacher at the university of Copenhagen interrupted your totally discusting, manic screaming, asking you, where were your ethics, your feelings in regard to all these people and their families, who your were dealing with. He asked you to stop. That's the Claus Larsen we all know and love. His maniac screaming. Why I remember one time in a bistro in NYC, being embarassed by Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer, maniacically screaming at the poor waitress and attempting to bite her ankles until restrained by members of New York Area Skeptics. Who, of course, do not resort to maniac screaming and passively let people steal their tape recorders. Yeah, right. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
02-19-2004 12:06 AM



ZepIlluminator Registered: Oct 2002Location: Sydney, AustraliaPosts: 4343 BAD

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Try to prove this is a lie!

It won`t take long.

It's a joke, Karen. As you very well know.

Take a chill pill. Really.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen quoting Allan Ramby
The original analyses from Karen Boesen were based on a company horoscope which was in part worked out by the amateur astrologer I mentioned earlier - specifically, I had selected a day, and then asked the astrologer for at good time. The company actually did not have a good horoscope and it was consequently dissolved. I was made aware of that there was no reason to hold on to this horoscope, and I had a new one constructed based on my natal horoscope. This has provided a much better foundation for my company. (emphasis added)This is very confusing to me, because it seems to be inconsistent with what was said previously.

We have talked briefly about the importance of founding time on a company horoscope, and I thought I understood that the founding time was VERY important for obtaining a horoscope that could be used for prognositication. Mr. Ramby, however, suggests that founding time is not important at all, that he could choose a horoscope based upon his own birth, and that he could use his own natal horoscope as his company's horoscope.

So I return to one of my earlier questions: can a company select its own founding time and "lock in" a favorable horoscope?Originally posted by Karen Boesen quoting Allan Ramby
As when choosing any other form of counseling, it pays to do your research and get references. And it is a good idea to test the astrologer on a couple of other assignments before you venture into employee selection.Testing an astrologer sounds like a good idea. I note that Lone Meier agrees that astrologers should be given a trial (test). What sort of testing does Mr. Ranby do or recommend, if you know? I think many skeptics would be very interested in hearing what sorts of tests astrologers would be willing to take.

[Karen Boesen]

PROVE that it was a joke!!

Was it a joke, when you accused a Danish astrologer of being an alcoholic, because he preferred to drink a glass of wine together with his wife, instead of listening to all your crap?

[Blondin]

Maybe I muddied the waters with my sarcastic example. I didn't mean to get into a discussion about whether Clause is a nice guy or not. I don't know the guy.

The point is that glowing testimonials from satisfied clients prove absolutely ZILCHO!

For your information, Karen, my opinions, beliefs, etc are only coincidentally aligned with those of Clause. I have my own reasons for asking you to support your claims which are in no way based on anything he or any of the other Danish skeptics have said about you. I think that probably goes for a number of us posting here on this forum. So please, put your defensive attitude aside and just address the issues.

Have you ever used the principle of "attempted falsification" to support your beliefs in the accuracy of astrology or is your entire belief system based on "positive hits" only?

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Try to prove this is a lie!

It won`t take long.


Jeff CoreyNew York Skeptic Registered: Aug 2001Location: Long Island, NYPosts: 1579 quote: Originally posted by Karen Boesen CL...At last a priest - yes a priest, sorry for that, went into your excitement, a philosofer - teacher at the university of Copenhagen interrupted your totally discusting, manic screaming, asking you, where were your ethics, your feelings in regard to all these people and their families, who your were dealing with. He asked you to stop. That's the Claus Larsen we all know and love. His maniac screaming. Why I remember one time in a bistro in NYC, being embarassed by Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer, maniacically screaming at the poor waitress and attempting to bite her ankles until restrained by members of New York Area Skeptics. Who, of course, do not resort to maniac screaming and passively let people steal their tape recorders. Yeah, right. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
02-19-2004 12:06 AM



ZepIlluminator Registered: Oct 2002Location: Sydney, AustraliaPosts: 4343 BAD
Karen,
Bubie, it was a joke!
I was making fun of your ridiculous statements about Claus' behavior, just like the previous one about the Berserker Viking.
I've know Claus for a few years now and know your descriptions are totally inconsistent with anything I've ever seen him do.
And you fell for it.

[Blondin]

Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer

I knew it was a joke simply because of this line. Everybody knows there's no such thing as "strong US beer".

For the record: this was a joke. :)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
PROVE that it was a joke!!

Read Jeff Corey's explanations, Karen.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Was it a joke, when you accused a Danish astrologer of being an alcoholic, because he preferred to drink a glass of wine together with his wife, instead of listening to all your crap?

I did not accuse a Danish astrologer of being an alcoholic. You know that, yet you choose to believe the worst.

[Karen Boesen]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claus, who wasn't used to strong US beer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I knew it was a joke simply because of this line. Everybody knows there's no such thing as "strong US beer".

Oh you did! I thought that this forum was an international forum.
Please do remember that US is NOT the whole world. I don`t drink bear myself, so to me it does not matter, if it is American beers, Danish beers, Australien beers or whatsoever.

Neither am I interested in Mr. Jeff Corey`s "feelings" about Mr. Larsen, his subjective postings on that creature.
My impression is, that when Mr. Corey found out, what he had revealled, he tried to turn his testemony into a joke.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------My impression is, that when Mr. Corey found out, what he had revealled, he tried to turn his testemony into a joke.

Your impression is dead wrong. But I suppose you're used to that.
By the way, it's either Jeff Corey or Dr. Corey. Mr. Corey was my father.

[Karen Boesen]

And by the way:

it is beer without a " s " as far as I remember.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
And by the way:

it is beer without a " s " as far as I remember.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
I don`t drink bear myself

And no "a" either.

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Neither am I interested in Mr. Jeff Corey`s "feelings" about Mr. Larsen, his subjective postings on that creature.
My impression is, that when Mr. Corey found out, what he had revealled, he tried to turn his testemony into a joke.

Jeff, meet Karen.

[Karen Boesen]

Good night Genttlemen! It is late in Copenhagen.

If you get the impression that I have met Mr. Larsen, you are wrong, and hopefully that will never happen either.

Now I know that the guy is complete insane. He not only beats people. He also bites. Very nice fellow. Maybe he is just an ordinary skeptic?

[Tanja]

Of course Karen. That's what skeptics do. I am just biting my husband's ankle as I am reading this post.

[Blondin]

It's funny, y'know, but I thought from the title of this thread that it would have something to do with evidence of efficacy of business astrology but apparently I was wrong. It's really all about who upset Karen Boesen and how.

I don't believe in astrology in any form, but whey I see a person who appears to be at least as intelligent as myself who does appear to believe in it I feel one of the following must apply:
a) they have evidence I don't know about,
b) they are a deceiver who only pretends to believe for their own nefarious reasons,
c) they aren't as intelligent as I first thought they were.

I like to keep an open mind about things and I am willing to entertain the idea that I could be exposed to evidence that would persuade me to change my mind. Never mind that there seems to be no explanation for the "mechanism" of astrology and that there is NO reconciling known physics with the claims of astrologers - maybe they just haven't figured out all of the nuts & bolts yet. If I saw some convincing evidence that it really works I might just have to accept that there might be something to it.

I think you are being given ample opportunity to make a case here, Karen. Can you provide non-subjective data or are you b) or c) above?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Good night Genttlemen! It is late in Copenhagen.

If you get the impression that I have met Mr. Larsen, you are wrong, and hopefully that will never happen either.

Now I know that the guy is complete insane. He not only beats people. He also bites. Very nice fellow. Maybe he is just an ordinary skeptic?

Saved for posterity.

[Karen Boesen]

Blondin:

my last post today!

It is number c) . You have been mistaken.

I shall give you an excample of what I regard as an open-minded skeptic.

A doctor ( medicine ) has made an appointment with me. In fact he has book my whole day. Why?
Because a friend of his, who happens to be an astrologer, send him his transitaspect for the forthcoming year. In 2003.

This person found out that this stuff really worked, so now he wants to know more. Not that he believes in astrology at all - at least not for the time being - but he wants to see, what I can do with his chart and why.

This guy is extremely intelligent, and I have told him that he can easily find an astrologer, who is much more intelligent than I am, and also much more interested in all that scientific stuff. I am not at all.

But for one reason or another, it has to be me.

I am pretty sure, that when he leaves my office, I am the one, who have become wiser.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen

I shall give you an excample of what I regard as an open-minded skeptic.

I have a simple question for you...

Is there any evidence whatsoever (not necessarily which does exist, but which could exist) that would convince you that astrology does not work?

I see in this thread already a handful of people who have stated what evidence they would like to see that might convince them that astrology does work. This is open-mindedness. Are you open-minded?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Karen Boesen
Reg. Mr. Winther`s post.

It will take me more than an hour to prove that he is passing on more lies, lies and lies,

I give up. These extremely skeptics are amazing. I have never met anyone, who is THAT dishonest. Karen,

Here is the heart of our problem.

You have come here to our forum at your own request, you have been (and still are) welcome to talk with us. You have accused one of the posters of being dishonest but have not provided evidence, just your own version of the story with rude accusations. That person has responded to that by (a) not being rude to you, and (b) responding to each of your points with facts and references to support his viewpoint (including, I note, your own ISBA website). In total, he has backed up his claims with evidence - he has shown that he knows about what he is saying. And I'm willing to bet it has taken more than an hour for him to gather that evidence - days, weeks, months, more likely.

You see, that is all we are asking of you, whatever your claim. Evidence, please. Just acting exasperated and pretending to go off in a huff every time you post is really rather childish, is it not? But at least you have posted some stories about your successes - that is a start.

And I have read your long posts about the two success stories. Alas, they are not actually evidence that has a lot of weight here. They are anecdotes - stories - only. They are good pointers towards something interesting, but for all we know, you may have made them up yourself. I'm not saying here that you did do that, but you have given us no way to tell if they are fake or not (most of us here can write wonderful stories too - we have a forum on creative writing, if you look around). More solid evidence would be independent things like a testing of your work in company websites, reputable journals, or even just newspaper stories to start with.

Further, these stories certainly raise far more questions than they answer (such is the case with all scientific research, actually). We could talk for days about each one - I certainly have many questions about them myself. But I would only do that if you remain willing to stay here and talk with us and not act like we are trying to hurt you. Our questions are because we are curious, not because we want to hurt you. You are the only one acting like we are hurting you. I am willing to bet that even Claus, strident though he might be, has never actually wanted to hurt you - he just has a forceful way of arguing that you don't seem to like, that's all. (We skeptics have tougher skins - we don't mind!)

So, Karen, are you willing to stay here and answer questions and talk with us?