Just a curious question, what do you think about the school system?

[J3K]

I am just curious so I thought I would ask everyone's opinions on this subject. And I see this as the best forum to post it in. So what are everyone's opinions on the school systems in america??? The good parts, the bad parts, the so so parts, just what are your thoughts on this subject.

[corplinx]

The Bad Parts:
the teachers union
elected school boards
unteachable students
the misconception that education is a right
poor school management
indoctrination
inept principals
inept teachers
poor textbooks
inner city students are doomed to go to the worst schools
kwanzaa is actually taught in schools
the parents
student athletics and the corruption that follows it

The Good Parts:
Taco Day!

I went to a catholic grade school and a public high school. In the end, they were pretty much the same; Mostly teachers who couldn't teach, instructing students who cared very little. The social aspect of both schools was lousy... most people are somewhat intolerable, if not reprehensible.

I'd rather have been homeschooled really, or learned everything on computer.

[Brown]

Well, I attended some pretty good public schools. I had a few teachers who were jackasses, but they were few and far between. Perhaps the most severe problem was that there were some students who seemed bent on making life hell for others. But there weren't all that many of them (and as best I can tell, this problem is universal and not unique to schools).

In my high school, athletes got some slack, but not as much as they got in other schools. For example, my high school implemented a wonderful idea, namely, that a student's physical education grade should be based upon participation, not athletic talent.

[fidiot]

I think a lot depends on the students' willingness to learn.

[Denise]

At my daughter's school, she gets a grade for her pitch in music. I kid you not. As she is like her mom, she doesn't get a good grade in that area. Some people just can't sing and she tries!

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Denise
At my daughter's school, she gets a grade for her pitch in music. I kid you not. As she is like her mom, she doesn't get a good grade in that area. Some people just can't sing and she tries!

Well, all is not lost. Michael Bolton can't sing either, and he makes millions. Doing whatever it is he does.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I cannot say much about the American system, seeing as I live in Australia.

But based on my experience with the Australian system some major reforms are needed.

First you sack every teacher who is thick, lazy or corrupt. This will be easy, since all you have to do is identify the handful of intelligent, committed people and they stand out a mile. Then you sack the rest.

Then you check the content of the curriculum and throw out everything that is either utterly useless to anyone not studying that topic at university, or a pack of lies. Which leaves you with English. Everyone forgets everything else within a year of leaving high school anyway.

Then you examine what teaching methods actually teach people things, as opposed to the "teaching methods" that consist of testing people on their trivia retention. Then you implement these training methods.

This will leave children plenty of free time to learn useful things in sensible ways. Which is the only way to do it. You can't teach anything worth knowing anyway. You can only help people learn it for themselves.

[shanek]

Originally posted by J3K
I am just curious so I thought I would ask everyone's opinions on this subject. And I see this as the best forum to post it in. So what are everyone's opinions on the school systems in america???

Which school system?

The government schools are pretty much failures across the board. Corplinx provided a good summary of it.

As for private schools, it's a mixed bag, and mostly depends on your perception. Generally, the ones run by large organizations over a broad area (like the Catholic schools) tend not to be anywhere near as good as the smaller ones, where an organization owns just a handful of schools, or even one. You also have things like your fundamentalist religious schools, which teach lies about astronomy and evolution and other subjects. But it's a free market. You can pick the one that gives your child the best education.

Unfortunately, you're forced to pay for government schools even if you send your kid somewhere else.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Thorin LungHammer
I went to a catholic grade school and a public high school. In the end, they were pretty much the same; Mostly teachers who couldn't teach, instructing students who cared very little.


I wonder if the two were related. If you're a student who isn't interested in learning, your teachers will not be able to teach you.

If you are interested in learning, I've met very few teachers who won't bend over backwards to help you. They like that kind of student.

or learned everything on computer.

Given the amount of boolsheet on the Internet, that's a scary thought... :)

[Tmy]

The school system is not that bad. The image is that "kids today" are idiots and the schools are failures. Truth is that the kids today are smarter, more computer literate, more literate period. Graduation and college attendance rates are higher than ever.

So whats the problem?

I'm also sick of hearing how children in forgein countries are better educated. So what if some Japaneses kid can do long divisoin in his head. A calculator can do that. Where's the creativity? the inovation? In the US we strive to give EVERY child at least a high school diploma, even the problem kids.

If the US schools are so bad then why do some many foreign students seek to apply.

I'm thinking its all an image problem.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Tmy

I'm also sick of hearing how children in forgein countries are better educated. So what if some Japaneses kid can do long divisoin in his head. A calculator can do that. Where's the creativity? the inovation? In the US we strive to give EVERY child at least a high school diploma, even the problem kids.

Ha, ha, ha :D

Yeah, why should US students learn to use their brains if they can buy a cheap calculator in Walmart (by $3)?

I realise why some people cannot use their brains when they are aduls.


If the US schools are so bad then why do some many foreign students seek to apply.

Probably because the level of education in the undergraduate and postgraduate courses are better than in other countries.

Q-S

[shanek]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
If you are interested in learning, I've met very few teachers who won't bend over backwards to help you. They like that kind of student.

That wasn't my experience in the government schools. With a few exceptions (whom I can count on a hand), most of the other teachers got downright belligerent when you actually asked critical questions about a subject, or (gasp!) demonstrated that you knew more about it than they did. Granted, a lot of that came from hiring coaches and then having them teach...

Given the amount of boolsheet on the Internet, that's a scary thought... :)

I have learned much more during the Age of Cyberspace than in all of my school years combined. And cyberspace is somewhere where you pretty much have to develop critical thinking skills if you ever want to make sense out of anything (as opposed to just wanting your own preconceived notions enforced).

[shanek]

Originally posted by Tmy
The school system is not that bad. The image is that "kids today" are idiots and the schools are failures. Truth is that the kids today are smarter, more computer literate, more literate period. Graduation and college attendance rates are higher than ever.

Yes, that was achieved by lowering the standards for graduation. Hardly a glaring point. Test scores are down, and illiteracy among graduates is up.

[Brown]

Please, folks, don't lump all public schools together. The public schools in the midwest are usually pretty darn good. Unfortunately, it's the crappy public schools in other areas of the country that are driving public educational policy.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Yeah, why should US students learn to use their brains if they can buy a cheap calculator in Walmart (by $3)?

That's always an interesting question, and a debate point around here.

The hard part about the question is this: What, exactly, should students learn to do by hand and what tasks are better left to calculators? Points to ponder:

* Should a student be required to perform the four basic mathematical operations by hand?
* Should a student be required to take square roots by hand?
* Should a student calculate standard deviations by hand?
* Should a student memorize sines and cosines of common angles?
* Should students use the quadratic formula manually?
* Should students try to do all integrations on paper, or have their calculators do them numerically?
* Plotting: By hand, or with a spreadsheet?

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by shanek
With a few exceptions (whom I can count on a hand), most of the other teachers got downright belligerent when you actually asked critical questions about a subject, or (gasp!) demonstrated that you knew more about it than they did.

This, of course, depends on what you mean by a "critical question" and, more importantly, how the question was phrased.

All I can say is that my experience is different. You know what they say about anecdotal evidence ... :)

Granted, a lot of that came from hiring coaches and then having them teach...

I hope you don't think that's limited to the public schools. I really hope you don't. :)

I have learned much more during the Age of Cyberspace than in all of my school years combined.

What does that prove? (I could point out that the "age of cyberspace" has been going on for more years than a traditional high-school education would take.)

And cyberspace is somewhere where you pretty much have to develop critical thinking skills if you ever want to make sense out of anything (as opposed to just wanting your own preconceived notions enforced).

Here's the rub. You don't have to develop critical thinking skills because of the Internet. Look at all the woo-woo boards out there. The internet hasn't taught them anything.

[corplinx]

Let me just say this. Good teachers tend to congregate in the same schools. In the government school system I as in, most of the best teachers wound up trying to get jobs at the same school. Hence, I had to get an "optional school transfer" and drive 30 minutes every morning to go to the goverment school with the most national merit semifinalists in the southeast.

Here is another sad aspect of government schooling. Our school was around 50 percent caucasian, 50 percent negro. How was this diversity accomplished? By forced busing. They piled these kids onto buses and forced them to go to a school nowhere near their neighborhood. The result? Negroes were apathetic and resentful. They clung to standard classes (most whites were in honors). A black kid who was in honors classes was "trying to be white".

This sort peer pressure to be your worst is one of the most hideous aspects of government schools. End forced busing now. There were negroes who like me applied for a school transfer to go there and appreciated that honors education. Some of them were friends from the mostly black school I came from (mostly black is an understatement, me and this guy Stan were the only white guys in the 8th grade, and we got into a fight one day).

[GreyWanderer]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


That's always an interesting question, and a debate point around here.

The hard part about the question is this: What, exactly, should students learn to do by hand and what tasks are better left to calculators? Points to ponder:

* Should a student be required to perform the four basic mathematical operations by hand?
* Should a student be required to take square roots by hand?
* Should a student calculate standard deviations by hand?
* Should a student memorize sines and cosines of common angles?
* Should students use the quadratic formula manually?
* Should students try to do all integrations on paper, or have their calculators do them numerically?
* Plotting: By hand, or with a spreadsheet?

I think most of them should be done by hand at first. Then when the students are comfortable doing them and fully understand what's being done they can switch to calculators so they can spend their time better.

Out of those listed I've never taken square roots by hand. I don't even know how to do it, except try and fail or use some kind of table.

I'm in my first year of college, engineering education.

[fidiot]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
The hard part about the question is this: What, exactly, should students learn to do by hand and what tasks are better left to calculators? Points to ponder:

* Should a student be required to perform the four basic mathematical operations by hand?
* Should a student be required to take square roots by hand?
* Should a student calculate standard deviations by hand?
* Should a student memorize sines and cosines of common angles?
* Should students use the quadratic formula manually?
* Should students try to do all integrations on paper, or have their calculators do them numerically?
* Plotting: By hand, or with a spreadsheet?

I think students should be taught the basics and (here's the main point) then taught how the more complex formulas/ideas are derived from the basics. Then they'd at least know how to solve problems, instead of simply learning the solutions. But then again, what do I know about teaching?

[Kodiak]

In a nutshell..

Vouchers and/or privatization (with local and State government oversight) couldn't do any worse...

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Brown
Please, folks, don't lump all public schools together. The public schools in the midwest are usually pretty darn good. Unfortunately, it's the crappy public schools in other areas of the country that are driving public educational policy.

I have to agree. I went to public schools in the midwest, and they were uniformly good. Personally, I think it all depends on the teachers. I had a truly amazing teacher for fourth and fifth grade -- we learned astronomy and physics and chemistry, and math that most people don't see until college, and all the kids loved every minute of it. There was no such thing as a kid unwilling to learn in that class.

Jeremy

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by corplinx
Let me just say this. Good teachers tend to congregate in the same schools. In the government school system I as in, most of the best teachers wound up trying to get jobs at the same school.

What does "government" have to do with this? It's just like private enterprise.

This sort peer pressure to be your worst is one of the most hideous aspects of government schools.

Peer pressure to be "your worst", of course, has precious little to do with government involvement in schools either. Kids watch the same TV, listen to the same music, and associate in practically the same ways in public and private schools. Having been to both public and private schools, I'd say the pressure to conform in each is equivalent.

Busing might aggrivate the problem, but I doubt it causes it.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
That's always an interesting question, and a debate point around here.

The hard part about the question is this: What, exactly, should students learn to do by hand and what tasks are better left to calculators? Points to ponder:

* Should a student be required to perform the four basic mathematical operations by hand?

Of course. You can't get by in modern life without knowing how to do basic arithmetic.

* Should a student be required to take square roots by hand?

That's a toughie. I learned how to do it, but I've never had it actually come up in my daily life. Memorizing the first 20 or so perfect squares is a must, though.

* Should a student calculate standard deviations by hand?

I think so. Sometimes it's hard to grasp what the standard deviation really means until you do it yourself.

* Should a student memorize sines and cosines of common angles?

Absolutely. I can't tell you how many times in my normal (non-academic) life that I've been glad I knew the sines and cosines of every 15 degrees. Trig is easily the most useful branch of mathematics that most people are likely to learn, and I think it should be taught much more comprehensively.

* Should students use the quadratic formula manually?

Yes, at first. After that, maybe not. I finished algebra before programmable calculators became common, so I never had any experience with them.

* Should students try to do all integrations on paper, or have their calculators do them numerically?

By hand. What's the point of learning anything as advanced as integral calculus if you're not going to go over the theory behind it? You might as well call the calculator the Magic Thinking Machine and just tell them the right Mystical Order to press the buttons in order to get the results they want.

* Plotting: By hand, or with a spreadsheet?

Hmm, that's a tough one, too. It's not likely to be something that most people will be intimately involved with in their normal lives, so I think computer-aided is fine, as long as the basic ideas are covered well enough.

Jeremy

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by fidiot
I think students should be taught the basics and (here's the main point) then taught how the more complex formulas/ideas are derived from the basics.

What I'm trying to get y'all to think about is this: What are "the basics"?

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by toddjh
I think so. Sometimes it's hard to grasp what the standard deviation really means until you do it yourself.

The other side of the coin for this particular argument is simply: "What does punching numbers into the formula manually teach the student? Does it really help them learn the concept, or is it busywork that can be left to the calculator?" Someone approaching the argument from this side of the coin would expose their students to lots of datasets and discuss how the differences in the datasets affect the results, while letting the calculator do the mundane math.

I've tried it both ways in my analytical chemistry classes.


Hmm, that's a tough one, too. It's not likely to be something that most people will be intimately involved with in their normal lives, so I think computer-aided is fine, as long as the basic ideas are covered well enough.

Of course, you could make the same argument here that you made above about the standard deviation. Does some hand-plotting help the student understand the concept of a graph?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
The other side of the coin for this particular argument is simply: "What does punching numbers into the formula manually teach the student? Does it really help them learn the concept, or is it busywork that can be left to the calculator?" Someone approaching the argument from this side of the coin would expose their students to lots of datasets and discuss how the differences in the datasets affect the results, while letting the calculator do the mundane math.

Well, I guess it all depends on what type of calculator you're talking about. Like I said, I went through all that stuff before programmable or graphing calculators were commonplace, so I probably lean a little more towards the elbow grease side just because I want everyone else to have as hard a time with it as I did ;).

If you're using it to compute the squares and square roots and sums, I think that's okay. But if all you're doing is entering a list of data points and then hitting the "Standard Deviation" button, I think that's too easy -- at least in a first statistics class. The latter is what I thought you were referring to.

I've tried it both ways in my analytical chemistry classes.

Did you notice any difference?

Of course, you could make the same argument here that you made above about the standard deviation. Does some hand-plotting help the student understand the concept of a graph?

I think graphs are more self-explanatory than standard deviations, though. They certainly appeal much more to the visually-oriented types.

Jeremy

[J3K]

As I get higher into high school, I seem to be finder smarter and smarter teachers teaching me. Better teachers basically. My dislikes about the school system(speaking public schools) is how ridiculously strict the rules are getting. I got dentention for giving my girlfriend a hug. Some teacher was fussing at us today for holding hands. At first you could be kinda layed back, holding hands and stuff wasn't a problem, a peck on the lips to say goodbye was cool. And then it was you can only hold hands. And now the principal threatens to write you up if he sees any physical contact what so ever. And the only excuse they can give is "people don't want to see that." And granted, some people might, but they can easily turn their head if it hurts that much to see two people showing some affection for each other. I don't know how good of an arguement this is, but in response to that people not wanting to see it thing, how about the days that I have no money for lunch, and have to sit through an hour of lunch watching people eat all around me. You think I want to see and smell that? No, it makes my stomach hungrier. I have to hold my breath half the time I go into the bathroom because of people smoking in there. They should be cracking down on that, and not somebody holding hands. And the school bus is like a freaking prison. Everybody just talking to each other, no yelling or anything, and then "It's too loud, if you talk, you get written up." Being treated like 2nd graders is just ridiculous. And if you have a coke or something left over from lunch, you have to throw it away or if somebody sees it, they take it and throw it away. And then you see teachers drinking coke and stuff. Fear of lawsuits and power going to peoples heads is what makes a lot of this up I believe. Most of the rules and stuff are fine, but somethings are just too out there.

[kittynh]

Our public high school has about 1,500 students. over 1,200 students made the honor roll...
something fishy, as in if a kid is on the honor roll the parents don't complain.

My daughter went to a private prep school where kids with B averages got into Harvard. and the public school wonders why Ivy League schools won't take their kids.

If you feel like going to the trouble there are fabulous private schools, almost all of which offer scholarships based on ability to pay ( and you have to be really rich to afford these schools- so the middle class gets a lot of the scholarship money).

There are stinker private schools for the snobs...if you want a Miss Hall's you can take it!

I teach at a private school, in wisconsin I taught at a public school. when I moved here I was so shocked at the difference I didn't even consider lowering my standards to the public school level here in the East. I love my private school...small class sizes, great teacher support, parent involvement, and the ability to teach instead of parent - or "teach" endless government mandates.

[Ladewig]

Requiring elementary and high school teachers to have degrees in education instead of degrees in the topics they are teaching causes trouble. It is hard to inspire studnets about a subject if you, yourself do not find it inspiring.

I met a 16-year-old whose teacher told him that water appears on the outside of a cold glass on a hot day because glass is porous.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
This, of course, depends on what you mean by a "critical question" and, more importantly, how the question was phrased.

Well, I think they were valid questions. And they're questions that, later on, I found that college professors and professionals in the field had no problems answering, and sometimes even said, "I asked that same question at your age!"

I hope you don't think that's limited to the public schools. I really hope you don't. :)

Didn't say it was, but at least there are some private schools that don't focus on sports over academics.

What does that prove? (I could point out that the "age of cyberspace" has been going on for more years than a traditional high-school education would take.)

Not the explosion of information in cyberspace, which has only been going on for the last ten years or so. Before, you could learn about computers and a smattering of other subjects, but it was nothing like it is now.

Here's the rub. You don't have to develop critical thinking skills because of the Internet. Look at all the woo-woo boards out there. The internet hasn't taught them anything.

Note the conditional I put there. The woo-woos don't want to learn anything; they just want to find support for their own pet theories (as evidenced by the censorship many members of this board have found when visiting them). And the fact that there are so many woo-woo web sites and boards on the Internet is exactly why you have to develop critical thinking skills if you actually want to learn anything.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Kodiak
In a nutshell..

Vouchers and/or privatization (with local and State government oversight) couldn't do any worse...

Vouchers would definitely be worse, IMO, because it will just extend government failure to the private schools. Look at what's happened to private colleges and universities since public money started going to them. Do people really think that money will come with no strings attached?

[shanek]

Originally posted by toddjh
That's a toughie. I learned how to do it, but I've never had it actually come up in my daily life.

I never learned it myself. Personally, if I had to do it, I'd probably just do a prime factorization and divide the factors into two equal groups and multiply it out.

My math teacher at the time didn't make a big deal of prime factorization, but I was hooked on it from the word "go"! I used it for practically everything. This resulted in me being told I was doing it "wrong," even though I'd always get the right answer.

In general, give me anything with a fraction bar and a prime factorization is the first thing I do. Then I cancel like crazy. One consequence of this is that the fraction always ends up automatically simplified. So I always skipped the simplification step, which caused me to get the question marked wrong. When I pointed out that I had the right answer, and the fraction was already simplified, I was told, "That's because you didn't do it right!" One time, on a test, I did one problem three completely different ways and got the right answer each way. It was counted wrong because none of those three ways was the "right" way.

Algebra was the worst. I could see about ten different ways of tacking any given problem. It was a crap shoot to get the "right" one. And then I would get it into a form something like:

4x + 2xy = 16x

And immediately move to:

2 + y = 8

And I'd be told I skipped a step, because I did two numbers at once. But I'm sorry: 2x is one number! It's a number twice the value of x!!!

And people wonder why I suck at algebra. That was my only obstacle learning Calculus!

Geometry was great, though. My final grade was 110 out of 100. Because as long as the proofs followed a logical progression, it was right!

I think so. Sometimes it's hard to grasp what the standard deviation really means until you do it yourself.

Still have problems with that. I have the general idea, but darned if I can actually do it.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Requiring elementary and high school teachers to have degrees in education instead of degrees in the topics they are teaching causes trouble. It is hard to inspire studnets about a subject if you, yourself do not find it inspiring.

I met a 16-year-old whose teacher told him that water appears on the outside of a cold glass on a hot day because glass is porous.

I once had a science teacher (well, actually, the girls' basketball coach pretending to be a science teacher) tell me that meteors burn up in the sky because they're heated by the sun. Of course, we didn't have Phil Plait back then. :D

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by toddjh
Well, I guess it all depends on what type of calculator you're talking about. Like I said, I went through all that stuff before programmable or graphing calculators were commonplace, so I probably lean a little more towards the elbow grease side just because I want everyone else to have as hard a time with it as I did ;).

I wasn't allowed to use a calculator at all until I hit my engineering classes in college. I'm not sure if I'm any better for that or not, though.


If you're using it to compute the squares and square roots and sums, I think that's okay.


For anything other than trivial made-up datasets, you'll HAVE to get out the calculator even doing things manually - else you'll literally spend the whole class period doing one.


But if all you're doing is entering a list of data points and then hitting the "Standard Deviation" button, I think that's too easy -- at least in a first statistics class. The latter is what I thought you were referring to.


I guess what I'm not certain of is this: What benefit is gained by repeatedly doing manual standard deviations? Sure, once to see how the formula works, but nobody in their right minds (outside of a statistics classroom, anyway) does a standard deviation by hand on a real data set.

Whereas, if you get the calculator to do the heavy lifting for you, you can graph the data and see what high and low standard deviations really represent. (You can do this by hand as well, but you'll be very limited in the amount of data you can crunch.)


Did you notice any difference?


My goal was primarily that they understand how to use standard deviation and what it could tell them about sets of data. The ones who punched theirs in manually didn't seem to have a greater grasp on what the s.d. represented than the ones who used their "standard deviation" button for all but one set. They sure did complain about it a lot more, though. :)

I'm divided on the calculator question. I think either extreme (no calculators or no by-hand work) is probably poor. I'm still looking for that perfect balance.

I think graphs are more self-explanatory than standard deviations, though. They certainly appeal much more to the visually-oriented types.

You'd be surprised, though, at how many undergraduate students don't know their x axis from their y axis.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
I guess what I'm not certain of is this: What benefit is gained by repeatedly doing manual standard deviations? Sure, once to see how the formula works, but nobody in their right minds (outside of a statistics classroom, anyway) does a standard deviation by hand on a real data set.

What I had in mind was my wife's first university stats class, where the only thing they learned was what buttons to press on their graphing calculators to calculate the different measures. I guess you can be too extreme in either direction.

I'm divided on the calculator question. I think either extreme (no calculators or no by-hand work) is probably poor. I'm still looking for that perfect balance.

Er, yeah, what you said. I think it's something they should do by hand at least once or twice. Seeing a big sigma on a sheet of paper isn't concrete enough for some people, especially me. I needed to do the busywork before I understood what it was all about.

You'd be surprised, though, at how many undergraduate students don't know their x axis from their y axis.

Ugh, that's sad. What did those people learn in 6th grade?

Jeremy

[Ladewig]

Vouchers and/or privatization (with local and State government oversight) couldn't do any worse...

One of the problems with such a system is that not all students have reasonable access to private schools. Students in rural Mississippi or in the West Virginian mountains won't have the option of using vouchers, but the state education budget of the public schools will be reduced by urban students using vouchers to divert funds to private schools.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Ladewig
but the state education budget of the public schools will be reduced by urban students using vouchers to divert funds to private schools.

Would the expenses not also be reduced by having fewer students to teach?

[QuarkChild]

Sometimes a more useful answer is gained by solving equations or integrating analytically, as opposed to using a calculator.

For example, suppose a student is supposed to get 4/5 for an answer to something, and instead gets 4 Sqrt(2) /5. If they did the caculation on a calculator, and their answer is 1.131..., how can they trace their error? It isn't obvious looking at the decimal number that they are off by factor of root 2.

Another good reason to learn to the calculation without a calculator is that in higher level courses one uses variables rather than numbers. Try integrating y^2 x dx on your calculator. Of course, nowadays, one could use Mathematica for that type of thing. But I think that for a mathematician or physicist, having to run to the computer to do every simple integral or equation solution would be pretty crippling.

As far as memorizing trig formulas: If you use something often enough, it finds its way into your brain of its own accord, and you don't have to memorize it. I think it's silly to make high school kids waste their time memorizing cos(a+b) = cos(a)cos(b) - sin(a)sin(b). I forgot that formula probably 2 minutes after taking my final math exam in high school, but by using it a lot in college I now know it anyway.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by shanek


In general, give me anything with a fraction bar and a prime factorization is the first thing I do. Then I cancel like crazy. One consequence of this is that the fraction always ends up automatically simplified. So I always skipped the simplification step, which caused me to get the question marked wrong. When I pointed out that I had the right answer, and the fraction was already simplified, I was told, "That's because you didn't do it right!" One time, on a test, I did one problem three completely different ways and got the right answer each way. It was counted wrong because none of those three ways was the "right" way.

Algebra was the worst. I could see about ten different ways of tacking any given problem. It was a crap shoot to get the "right" one. And then I would get it into a form something like:

4x + 2xy = 16x

And immediately move to:

2 + y = 8

And I'd be told I skipped a step, because I did two numbers at once. But I'm sorry: 2x is one number! It's a number twice the value of x!!!

And people wonder why I suck at algebra. That was my only obstacle learning Calculus!



maybe also the problem in not demonstrating how you did it, which is just as important. Teachers have a lot of problems with children learning by wrote, guessing and copying. By demonstrating, you are able to show you understand. If you cannot demonstrate, then it is possible you do not.

The ability to not just be able to do the work, but be able to demonstrate it, is just as important. If you did not skip the step, then there is no problem in demonstrating it, if you did skip the step, then you have not demonstrated you really understand it.

Perhaps the real obstacle was a personality clash.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[GreyWanderer]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
As far as memorizing trig formulas: If you use something often enough, it finds its way into your brain of its own accord, and you don't have to memorize it. I think it's silly to make high school kids waste their time memorizing cos(a+b) = cos(a)cos(b) - sin(a)sin(b). I forgot that formula probably 2 minutes after taking my final math exam in high school, but by using it a lot in college I now know it anyway.

We've had a handy little book with those formulas since high school (:

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by toddjh


I have to agree. I went to public schools in the midwest, and they were uniformly good. Personally, I think it all depends on the teachers. I had a truly amazing teacher for fourth and fifth grade -- we learned astronomy and physics and chemistry, and math that most people don't see until college, and all the kids loved every minute of it. There was no such thing as a kid unwilling to learn in that class.

Jeremy

I think you and Brown would agree, though, that there is always room for improvement (cost, quality, efficiency, versatility, etc...), no?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by shanek


Vouchers would definitely be worse, IMO, because it will just extend government failure to the private schools. Look at what's happened to private colleges and universities since public money started going to them. Do people really think that money will come with no strings attached?

Possibly good points, shanek, but the vouchers program wouldn't have the problems you suggest, IMO, if it were carried out nationally, but with local/State oversight.

[Tmy]

One thing that annoyed me about school was that history apparently stops right about WW2. That's if we made it that far during the school year.

That being said, I was wondering just what is a "North Korea" and what's their beef with the USA?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Ladewig


One of the problems with such a system is that not all students have reasonable access to private schools. Students in rural Mississippi or in the West Virginian mountains won't have the option of using vouchers, but the state education budget of the public schools will be reduced by urban students using vouchers to divert funds to private schools.

It is not just a public school/private school problem, though.

There are bad and good public schools, and vouchers, even in an all public school community, would force poor or mediocre public schools to improve.

[Tony]

I would like to see the elimination of manditory attendance laws.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tmy
One thing that annoyed me about school was that history apparently stops right about WW2. That's if we made it that far during the school year.

That being said, I was wondering just what is a "North Korea" and what's their beef with the USA?

He's the younger brother of hockey star Paul Korea. North is angry because Paul refuses to play for a Canadian team.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by a_unique_person, replying to shanek
maybe also the problem in not demonstrating how you did it, which is just as important. Teachers have a lot of problems with children learning by wrote, guessing and copying.

The problem, by the way, does not stop when you get to the college level.

Many times, the instructor will ask that you show a sequence of steps showing your solution. Just writing down the answer, even if it's correct, doesn't demonstrate your mastery of the material.

If the task at hand is to demonstrate how you solve an equation, show the steps. Most teachers I know wouldn't care whether you divided by 2 and then by x or whether you divided by 2x - as long as you showed that's what you did.

Now, if you showed clearly what you were dividing, you just have a bad math teacher. It happens on occasion. But if you didn't, well ...

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Tony
I would like to see the elimination of manditory attendance laws.

Shouldn't you be in class right about now? :)

[Tmy]

School Boards can be a major obstacle. Many of them are made up of unqualified kooks who have to much time on their hands.

Teachers unions can make it all but impossible to fire a lousy teacher.

Funding: Im always suspect of the schools beacuse they are a bottomless money pit always wanting more and more! Ever here of a school system that was pleased with their funding level?

[shanek]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
maybe also the problem in not demonstrating how you did it,

No; I demonstrated how I did it. They just didn't like how I did it. It got worse when I found out that no two teachers agreen on which way was the "right" way.

If you did not skip the step, then there is no problem in demonstrating it,

But I did demonstrate it! I cancelled 2x from each side.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Possibly good points, shanek, but the vouchers program wouldn't have the problems you suggest, IMO, if it were carried out nationally, but with local/State oversight.

On what are you basing this?

[shanek]

Originally posted by Kodiak
There are bad and good public schools, and vouchers, even in an all public school community, would force poor or mediocre public schools to improve.

I agree that school competition would force many public schools to improve, but I still say that a direct tax refund to the families is better than vouchers (although admittedly still not perfect).

[shanek]

Originally posted by Tony
I would like to see the elimination of manditory attendance laws.

Welcome to the forum, Tony!

Why do you think mandatory attendance laws are a bad idea?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
As far as memorizing trig formulas: If you use something often enough, it finds its way into your brain of its own accord, and you don't have to memorize it. I think it's silly to make high school kids waste their time memorizing cos(a+b) = cos(a)cos(b) - sin(a)sin(b). I forgot that formula probably 2 minutes after taking my final math exam in high school, but by using it a lot in college I now know it anyway.

Well, maybe. But if you haven't memorized the easy way to do something, sometimes you'll end up doing it the hard way, or deciding that you just can't do it now and you'll figure it out later when you have a calculator.

But really, I guess I'd settle for kids memorizing that the sine of 30 degrees is 0.5 (and the cosine of 60 degrees, etc.). That's something that's simple enough that you can use it in daily life without even having to have a pencil and paper handy.

Jeremy

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Tmy
School Boards can be a major obstacle. Many of them are made up of unqualified kooks who have to much time on their hands.

Education is one of the few fields (professional sports is another) where every random Joe off the street wants to tell you how to do your job.


Teachers unions can make it all but impossible to fire a lousy teacher.

Or is it that in most places there's a teacher shortage?

Funding: Im always suspect of the schools beacuse they are a bottomless money pit always wanting more and more!

Given that they keep asking the schools to do more and more and integrate the newest technologies into the classroom, is that surprising? For example, you want every kid to know Windows, Word, and Excel? You'll have to cough up the cash for hardware and licenses. Pretty simple, eh? (And because it's Microsoft, you'll have to pay and pay and pay ... ;) )

[J3K]

I just wanted to comment on what Tony said about attendance laws. I agree with him, if you can pass all of the tests and makes good grades, so what if you missed one day over the limit. The first thing that will come out of a school administator is that "School is just like the work place. If you miss more than a certain amount of days at a job, you get fired." However, whenever students want another right or two for themselves(like you would have at a work place) school suddenly becomes a place of learning, and not the work place.

[shanek]

Originally posted by J3K
I just wanted to comment on what Tony said about attendance laws. I agree with him, if you can pass all of the tests and makes good grades, so what if you missed one day over the limit. The first thing that will come out of a school administator is that "School is just like the work place. If you miss more than a certain amount of days at a job, you get fired." However, whenever students want another right or two for themselves(like you would have at a work place) school suddenly becomes a place of learning, and not the work place.

These are good points, and I agree with them. I just wanted Tony to feel free to come forward and tell us his reasoning.

[toddjh]

I disagree about repealing mandatory attendance. These are kids we're talking about; we shouldn't assume they are capable of acting responsibly. Give them permission to skip school, and a lot of them will, even if it means they'll fail. This is not the sort of thing that parents can always control -- they can't babysit their kids every hour of the school day.

I agree for university classes, though, since the students are adults and expected to look after themselves. I got an A in two classes that I literally never went to, because I knew the material and passed the final. I also failed a couple classes I never went to, which was my own damn fault, and I paid for it -- but we all pay if children make are allowed to make immature decisions and cheat themselves out of an education.

Edited to add: hypocrisy in schools is, of course, an issue that needs to be addressed, but one that I feel is independent of attendance.

Jeremy

[J3K]

I disagree todd. You're point is basically taking away the attendence laws will lower education because children will skip right? Well, my first thoughts on this are, if the kids skipping don't pass, they won't be skipping so much. But also, if a kid is just missing days right and left, or suspicious of skipping is there, then parents should be contacted.
But how I do feel about it for the smart kids(not bragging, but this goes for me) it gives them the benifit of being able to take a day off of school, because they have earned it. And I have done this, because I so rarely get sick, if I just don't feel like going to school, and I won't be missing anything important, I don't go. I make good grades, so hey, missing one day isn't going to hurt anything. I wouldn't use this point to fight against attendence laws, but it's a nice point I like.
There is also the trouble people who have been sick have to go through after they reach the limit of allowed missed days. There are times when people are out sick for days because of a bad cold or the flu. You don't always have to go to the doctor for things like this, so you don't have a doctor's note to make those missed days not count. And once that limit comes about, you have to pay to go to the doctor so you can have a doctor's note so the days aren't counted against you.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by J3K
I disagree todd. You're point is basically taking away the attendence laws will lower education because children will skip right? Well, my first thoughts on this are, if the kids skipping don't pass, they won't be skipping so much.

I think the reverse is more important: if they don't skip so much, they won't be failing. I'd rather have a kid graduate on time and grumble about draconian rules than be free to goof off and end up wasting a entire year of his life -- or maybe end up dropping out entirely. If we were talking about adults, I'd be the first to agree with you, but remember, these are kids. We can't assume they will act in their own best interests, and we shouldn't always give them enough rope to hang themselves. That's why their parents and guardians have responsibility for them in the first place.

But also, if a kid is just missing days right and left, or suspicious of skipping is there, then parents should be contacted.

What are the parents going to do? Stay with their kids every minute of every school day? Hire an escort to make sure they don't sneak away from school? At my school at least, parents could get their kids out of school for the day with just a phone call. If you're saying that children skipping school should require the approval of the parents or guardians, isn't that already handled by the status quo (or at least the way things were when I was there)?

But how I do feel about it for the smart kids(not bragging, but this goes for me) it gives them the benifit of being able to take a day off of school, because they have earned it.

Intelligence and responsibility are very different things.

There is also the trouble people who have been sick have to go through after they reach the limit of allowed missed days. There are times when people are out sick for days because of a bad cold or the flu. You don't always have to go to the doctor for things like this, so you don't have a doctor's note to make those missed days not count. And once that limit comes about, you have to pay to go to the doctor so you can have a doctor's note so the days aren't counted against you.

I agree here. Sick days should not be counted toward an attendance total. If the kids can pass tests, they should pass classes.

Jeremy

[J3K]

The last thing you said todd, that is my whole point. Just because a student misses so and so many days, yet they can still pass the classes fine, it shouldn't count against them.
But when it comes down to the students that skip, the parents should be contacted if skipping is suspected, and the kid should be punished. And no, I didn't mean for the parents to be with the kid every waking moment, but if the kid wasnt at school, the parent finds out, the kids will now be punished at home for skipping. And of course there are a few morons who will keep skipping, whether they get in trouble or not, becuase they don't care, and when they fail, they will care. Whether it takes a year out of their life or not, they deserve it. And it's usually not the fact that kids miss days that cause them to fail, it's because they are too lazy to listen in class and study.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by J3K
The last thing you said todd, that is my whole point. Just because a student misses so and so many days, yet they can still pass the classes fine, it shouldn't count against them.

Yes, I agree with that in principle. However, my whole point is that children, by definition, aren't always capable of making responsible decisions. Giving them free reign to skip school would, in my opinion, encourage destructive behavior.

But when it comes down to the students that skip, the parents should be contacted if skipping is suspected, and the kid should be punished. And no, I didn't mean for the parents to be with the kid every waking moment, but if the kid wasnt at school, the parent finds out, the kids will now be punished at home for skipping.

Yes, and we know how well that works -- that's why kids are known for being well-behaved and non-mischievous. ;)

And of course there are a few morons who will keep skipping, whether they get in trouble or not, becuase they don't care, and when they fail, they will care.

Will they? There are lots of people who never graduate already, and the last thing we need to do is make it more likely to happen.

Whether it takes a year out of their life or not, they deserve it.

I disagree. Kids aren't capable of taking care of themselves, and we shouldn't expect them to. For the same reason that juvenile criminals are given relatively light sentences in most cases, they can't be held entirely responsible for their educational failures, either.

Jeremy

[J3K]

I'm speaking mostly about high school students. I feel very strong in the fact that most every student in high school is mature enough to make decisions such as this. If they don't, it is their own stupidity. And like I said, whether they attend school or not, odds won't change too much whether or not they pass. It's if students will be smart and try and school, and then they will pass. You do make good points though todd. I just don't want to admit I am wrong. lol. but I am in some things I have said.

[shanek]

Originally posted by toddjh
I disagree about repealing mandatory attendance. These are kids we're talking about; we shouldn't assume they are capable of acting responsibly. Give them permission to skip school, and a lot of them will, even if it means they'll fail.

What if they're not skipping? What if they have a sudden bout of tonsilitis or monomucleosis and have to miss a week or five? No matter how much they take the initiative to study on their own to catch up, and no matter how well they end up doing, they still fail. I failed Western Civ in college because I was out for THREE DAYS because of surgery!

[Tony]

Originally posted by shanek


Why do you think mandatory attendance laws are a bad idea?

Because the laws force students who dont want to be at school, to attend against their will. This makes for a disruptive student, who will most likely be a displine problem. This is America, children should not have the govenment forcing an unwanted education on them, let the parents do thier job.