My friend is now a truther, any advice/ debunking points available?

[jamietron]

Hi all,

i'm a first time poster here, so apologies if this topic has already been addressed - if it has, could you just point me towards the appropriate thread please?
My friend told me yesterday over msn that he watched zeitgeist, and was shocked to hear that i'd seen it too and yet didn't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. He brought up points such as how building 7 shouldn't have collapsed, the towers fell at freefall speed, obvious signs of demoliton, and how the pentagon security tapes were taken away.
I tried to explain how the north tower fell on building seven, and there were reports of the building leaning, a hole gouged out of its side, and how several floors were on fire.
I told him in normal controlled demos, every floor has a visible (and loud) explosion followed by smoked plumes BEFORE its collapse, it doesn't collapse from the top down, and the elevator shafts dont remain standing afterwards (as happened with the north tower).
I explained that the security tapes were confiscated because it was evidence at a crime scene...
what happened next really surprised me - i'd expect it from a typical 9/11 truther, but not (what i assumed) was a normal person - my friend just ignored my points, refused to accept them or provide a counter argument, and just moved on to the next point... in other words, he was moving the goal posts.
When i informed him of his failure to acknowledge my points, he responded with "lol not really?" Before moving yet again onto another topic.
My question was are there any points or any links anyone could provide that i could use in a proper debate with him? Also any advice you could give to help me stop him from moving goal posts all the time?
Thanks in advance!

[Horatius]

what happened next really surprised me - i'd expect it from a typical 9/11 truther, but not (what i assumed) was a normal person - my friend just ignored my points, refused to accept them or provide a counter argument, and just moved on to the next point... in other words, he was moving the goal posts.
When i informed him of his failure to acknowledge my points, he responded with "lol not really?" Before moving yet again onto another topic.




That can be pretty shocking when you see it live the first time. You expect trolls to do stuff like that, but people you know in real life?

So far, the best solution seems to be being non-confrontational, but asking them to show the same level of skepticism about their new "sources of information" as those sources would have them be of the "official story". Pointing out the flaws in their arguments seems less effective, overall, than letting them find the flaws themselves.

Also, don't expect a sudden reversal - it will take time.

[The Platypus]

Hi all,

i'm a first time poster here, so apologies if this topic has already been addressed - if it has, could you just point me towards the appropriate thread please?
My friend told me yesterday over msn that he watched zeitgeist, and was shocked to hear that i'd seen it too and yet didn't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. He brought up points such as how building 7 shouldn't have collapsed, the towers fell at freefall speed, obvious signs of demoliton, and how the pentagon security tapes were taken away.
I tried to explain how the north tower fell on building seven, and there were reports of the building leaning, a hole gouged out of its side, and how several floors were on fire.
I told him in normal controlled demos, every floor has a visible (and loud) explosion followed by smoked plumes BEFORE its collapse, it doesn't collapse from the top down, and the elevator shafts dont remain standing afterwards (as happened with the north tower).
I explained that the security tapes were confiscated because it was evidence at a crime scene...
what happened next really surprised me - i'd expect it from a typical 9/11 truther, but not (what i assumed) was a normal person - my friend just ignored my points, refused to accept them or provide a counter argument, and just moved on to the next point... in other words, he was moving the goal posts.
When i informed him of his failure to acknowledge my points, he responded with "lol not really?" Before moving yet again onto another topic.
My question was are there any points or any links anyone could provide that i could use in a proper debate with him? Also any advice you could give to help me stop him from moving goal posts all the time?
Thanks in advance!


From my experience with friends that have bought into this stupidity and played the exact same games, i would have to unfortunately tell you that your friend is most likely lost. Soon he will most likely get angry that you will not follow him into his fairy tale land of cult like thinking and will sever the friendship. Frankly, your friend has lost his mind and you can't fix these people until he's ready to return to reality himself.

[GlennB]

I suspect your friend might routinely put key words into Google and get whisked away to CT websites.

Quietly suggest that s/he might put in those same words with +debunk . It can be good to just discover the alternative in written form without having an actual real live person in your face to argue against.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Hi all,

i'm a first time poster here, so apologies if this topic has already been addressed - if it has, could you just point me towards the appropriate thread please?
My friend told me yesterday over msn that he watched zeitgeist, and was shocked to hear that i'd seen it too and yet didn't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. He brought up points such as how building 7 shouldn't have collapsed, the towers fell at freefall speed, obvious signs of demoliton, and how the pentagon security tapes were taken away.
I tried to explain how the north tower fell on building seven, and there were reports of the building leaning, a hole gouged out of its side, and how several floors were on fire.
I told him in normal controlled demos, every floor has a visible (and loud) explosion followed by smoked plumes BEFORE its collapse, it doesn't collapse from the top down, and the elevator shafts dont remain standing afterwards (as happened with the north tower).
I explained that the security tapes were confiscated because it was evidence at a crime scene...
what happened next really surprised me - i'd expect it from a typical 9/11 truther, but not (what i assumed) was a normal person - my friend just ignored my points, refused to accept them or provide a counter argument, and just moved on to the next point... in other words, he was moving the goal posts.
When i informed him of his failure to acknowledge my points, he responded with "lol not really?" Before moving yet again onto another topic.
My question was are there any points or any links anyone could provide that i could use in a proper debate with him? Also any advice you could give to help me stop him from moving goal posts all the time?
Thanks in advance!

That's exactly what's going on in this sub-forum. Truthers pull the same silly routine over and over again.

I would tell you to tell your friend to: "Stop handwaving what I say. You're not Obi Wan Kenobi and I'm not "weak minded". But that's just me! :D

[jamietron]

Thanks for the advice guys, i'll try it out and let you know how it turns out!
I agree it will take time - to be perfectly honest after i saw zeitgeist and screw loose change, i kind of believed them - after watching screw loose change and looking at other debunking resources, i saw how ridiculous the conspiracy theories were, and after lurking on sites such as this one, i saw how crazy 9/11 truthers really are.
But that all took quite a while.
I expect it to take quite a while for him too!
A mutual friend of ours told me he also bought into the 2012 theory, so i'm not getting my hopes up about him coming to his senses. :-(

[bill smith]

From my experience with friends that have bought into this stupidity and played the exact same games, i would have to unfortunately tell you that your friend is most likely lost. Soon he will most likely get angry that you will not follow him into his fairy tale land of cult like thinking and will sever the friendship. Frankly, your friend has lost his mind and you can't fix these people until he's ready to return to reality himself.

Truthers never change their mind on 9/11. It is a one-way street. The only traffic is from the other direction as with the new poster's friend.

[bill smith]

I suspect your friend might routinely put key words into Google and get whisked away to CT websites.

Quietly suggest that s/he might put in those same words with +debunk . It can be good to just discover the alternative in written form without having an actual real live person in your face to argue against.

I like it Glenn. Keep it up. Finally you accept that the Official Conspiracy Theory is an 'alternative'.

This is a magnificent Freudian slip that shows quite clearly that our view of 9/11 is rapidly becoming the mainstream one. Like it or not that is just the way it is.

[bill smith]

Thanks for the advice guys, i'll try it out and let you know how it turns out!
I agree it will take time - to be perfectly honest after i saw zeitgeist and screw loose change, i kind of believed them - after watching screw loose change and looking at other debunking resources, i saw how ridiculous the conspiracy theories were, and after lurking on sites such as this one, i saw how crazy 9/11 truthers really are.
But that all took quite a while.
I expect it to take quite a while for him too!
A mutual friend of ours told me he also bought into the 2012 theory, so i'm not getting my hopes up about him coming to his senses. :-(

Why not get your friend to sit in and we will see if I can strengthen his conviction even though there will be dozens of debunkers trying to convince him of the OCT.

[Disbelief]

I like it Glenn. Keep it up. Finally you accept that the Official Conspiracy Theory is an 'alternative'.

This is a magnificent Freudian slip that shows clearly that our view of 9/11 is rapidly becoming the mainstream one. Like it or not that is just the way it is.

Your reading comprehension still sucks. If jamietron's friend is only looking at truther sites, the alternative to those sites would be debunking information.

[The Platypus]

Truthers never change their mind on 9/11. It is a one-way street. The only traffic is from the other direction as with the new poster's friend.

Do you ever post anything that isn't a delusional agenda driven lie, that you are so totally incorrect about that it is blatantly obvious?

If so, I've yet to see it...

[TruthersLie]

As for your friend.

Each time he brings up a 'truther talking point" tell him to go and read about it at www.911myths.com

each and every truther talking point is there, and almost all of them have been debunked.

Very simple. Very easy.

friend: "Hey they used thermite on the columns."
You: "go read up on it at www.911myths.com"
friend: "hey no jet at the pentagon."
you" " go read up on it at www.911myths.com"
friend: blah blah blah loose change says...
you: "go read up on it at www.911myths.com"

or even better, sit down with him and go through it. Ask him to find where 911myths.com is wrong. Have him do his own homework.

[Horatius]

or even better, sit down with him and go through it. Ask him to find where 911myths.com is wrong. Have him do his own homework.



Or even better, have him come read this thread, and see how blatantly bill smith distorts reality with regards to something so simple as reading this thread, and ask your friend if he thinks people like that will do better, or worse, when discussing engineering.

[jamietron]

Both great points guys, i'll be sure to use 911myths.com, and any evidence of a truther distorting reality is useful in making him see the route he's going down.

[jamietron]

Ok, i just talked to him offering the links everyone has presented, and was ready to discuss the topic with him... but he said "forget it, I'm not interested in 9/11 truth anymore".
Either he saw the flawed logic and thinking in the conspiracy theories, and decided to move on with his life, or he was being honest, and 9/11 truth - for some reason (too obviously untrue? No longer a relevant topic in today's society because it had no truth, and thus no success?) - is not worth pursuing.
Nonetheless, thanks a lot for the advice, i'm very grateful for it, and i'll be sure to keep your posts in mind should something similar come up in the future!

[cantonear1968]

Hi all,

i'm a first time poster here, so apologies if this topic has already been addressed - if it has, could you just point me towards the appropriate thread please?
My friend told me yesterday over msn that he watched zeitgeist, and was shocked to hear that i'd seen it too and yet didn't believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. He brought up points such as how building 7 shouldn't have collapsed, the towers fell at freefall speed, obvious signs of demoliton, and how the pentagon security tapes were taken away.
I tried to explain how the north tower fell on building seven, and there were reports of the building leaning, a hole gouged out of its side, and how several floors were on fire.
I told him in normal controlled demos, every floor has a visible (and loud) explosion followed by smoked plumes BEFORE its collapse, it doesn't collapse from the top down, and the elevator shafts dont remain standing afterwards (as happened with the north tower).
I explained that the security tapes were confiscated because it was evidence at a crime scene...
what happened next really surprised me - i'd expect it from a typical 9/11 truther, but not (what i assumed) was a normal person - my friend just ignored my points, refused to accept them or provide a counter argument, and just moved on to the next point... in other words, he was moving the goal posts.
When i informed him of his failure to acknowledge my points, he responded with "lol not really?" Before moving yet again onto another topic.
My question was are there any points or any links anyone could provide that i could use in a proper debate with him? Also any advice you could give to help me stop him from moving goal posts all the time?
Thanks in advance!

Mark Roberts site is also a great resource for offering proof of most claims:

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/

And another great resource is the JREF forum itself. I'd be surprised if there is any topic that any truther can bring up that hasn't been discussed into the ground on this site. Use the search function or simply type "jref [subject]" into google and you will most likely find what you need with verifiable sources.

But good luck. If your friend will not look at the other side then he may already be lost. Some people just "want to believe".

[metamars]

My advice, if he's unattached, is to check out the We Are Change girls in Manhattan. Pretty durn cute, if you ask me! Especially that one who laughs a lot. Quite a contrast with the pretentious sourpusses that hang out in cyberspace at <redacted>.

If he doesn't live near Manhattan, he'll have to find out what the situation is, all on his own.

[carlitos]

I guess it's sort of like dating Catholic girls. Sure they believe in silly mythology, but they are cute.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Truthers never change their mind on 9/11. It is a one-way street. The only traffic is from the other direction as with the new poster's friend.

*ahem*

http://extruther.blogspot.com/

PWNED again, Billy.

[Scott Jurgenson]

As for your friend.

Each time he brings up a 'truther talking point" tell him to go and read about it at www.911myths.com

each and every truther talking point is there, and almost all of them have been debunked.

Very simple. Very easy.

friend: "Hey they used thermite on the columns."
You: "go read up on it at www.911myths.com"
friend: "hey no jet at the pentagon."
you" " go read up on it at www.911myths.com"
friend: blah blah blah loose change says...
you: "go read up on it at www.911myths.com"

or even better, sit down with him and go through it. Ask him to find where 911myths.com is wrong. Have him do his own homework.
This is a good thread to do this. I too have a friend who is in a similar situation. He told me to watch loose change, I told him about loose change viewers guide. He told me about Richard Gage, I told him about 911myths.com, then he told me he watched some video where a kid "Mathematically" shows why the towers couldn't have collapsed and said it's proof to him that CD was the only option. I can't find that video to rebutt but I just don't get it. He's watched every video I have, read every article that I've read, yet he draws that the 911myths and debunking911 sites are rubbish and I draw the opposite. I tried, I am almost ready to give up. I just don't know what to do because he's my best friend and I can't stand the fact that he really thinks our government blew up our towers.

[Scott Jurgenson]

I guess it's sort of like dating Catholic girls. Sure they believe in silly mythology, but they are cute.

So true. So true.

[TruthersLie]

This is a good thread to do this. I too have a friend who is in a similar situation. He told me to watch loose change, I told him about loose change viewers guide. He told me about Richard Gage, I told him about 911myths.com, then he told me he watched some video where a kid "Mathematically" shows why the towers couldn't have collapsed and said it's proof to him that CD was the only option. I can't find that video to rebutt but I just don't get it. He's watched every video I have, read every article that I've read, yet he draws that the 911myths and debunking911 sites are rubbish and I draw the opposite. I tried, I am almost ready to give up. I just don't know what to do because he's my best friend and I can't stand the fact that he really thinks our government blew up our towers.

Scott.

Your friend needs to take an information literacy, research methods or experimental design course.

Have you friend work through this
http://www.noodletools.com/debbie/literacies/information/1over/infolit1.html

It should help him understand what information literacy is, and then apply those skills to 9/11 research.

Your friend WANTS there to be some super sekret gubmint conspiracy...

You could also have him research EACH of the topics he spews. Ask him to provide the evidence... not from second hand bad sources (prison planet, online forums). Then go back to 911myths and work through the evidence.

You can tell him all day, but unless he has done the research himself he won't believe it.

[Horatius]

This is a good thread to do this. I too have a friend who is in a similar situation. He told me to watch loose change, I told him about loose change viewers guide. He told me about Richard Gage, I told him about 911myths.com, then he told me he watched some video where a kid "Mathematically" shows why the towers couldn't have collapsed and said it's proof to him that CD was the only option. I can't find that video to rebutt but I just don't get it. He's watched every video I have, read every article that I've read, yet he draws that the 911myths and debunking911 sites are rubbish and I draw the opposite. I tried, I am almost ready to give up. I just don't know what to do because he's my best friend and I can't stand the fact that he really thinks our government blew up our towers.



Are there any conspiracy theories he's heard about while looking into those ones, that he doesn't believe? If so, you could try showing him how the ones he does believe in use the same types of bogus evidence and arguments as those he doesn't believe in. Then ask him why he accepts them in one case, but not the other.


Of course, there's the risk he'll decide to believe in the other CT as well....

[Scott Jurgenson]

You know that's an excellent point. At 27 years old I feel he should be able to think critically. I'll give it a shot. I wish I never came out of the dark on this subject. Life was a lot easier when I didn't know there were 9/11 conspiracy theories.

[ElMondoHummus]

I think that, despite your friend's enthusiasm for it, you'll eventually find that most truthers (and probably him too) actually take conspiracy mythologizing rather superficially. Instead of doing anything openly constructive, the vast majority will do nothing more than make snarks at inappropriate moments and post the occasional diatribe online. And that'll likely be the extent of it.

Sure, we all worry about people turning creepy and semi-stalkerish like Killtown - or worse yet, commit actual crimes - but in reality, most will pursue 9/11 information like Star Wars fans approach fiction: They hit truther equivalents of Wookiepedia and the like, then mess around on boards posting about what they've discovered.

There's actually a decent chance that he'll discard trutherism after a while. There are people on both the conspiracy advocacy side and our rebuttal/debunking side who simply quit after a while. Either they reach a point where they believe they've done all they care to do, or they get bored. Regardless, a good deal of people just quit after a while.

[Scott Jurgenson]

It really is all LC's fault. See what I don't understand is how someone can view Loose Change as something other than just an obvious quote mining, false claim making documentary..(well my roomate did so that's 1). Almost every documentary ever made uses editing to make their stance seem a little stronger.

My story in short:

Watched LC about 3 months ago for the first time as reccomended by my idiot roomate
Thought wow, this is crazy but there's no way it can be true, I like sources and this was lacking much...but hey I'll check it out because if it is true, I'll be damned.
Saw Roberts' Loose Changes Viewers Guide and quickly realized it's been completely debunked
Became obsessed with learning more about 9/11
Found JREF

[blueberries]

Or even better, have him come read this thread, and see how blatantly bill smith distorts reality with regards to something so simple as reading this thread, and ask your friend if he thinks people like that will do better, or worse, when discussing engineering.

This is exactly how I got my mother to see sense.

I made her login to these forums to see what people who believed what she did were saying... she's too embarrassed to even bring it up anymore.

[TruthersLie]

It really is all LC's fault. See what I don't understand is how someone can view Loose Change as something other than just an obvious quote mining, false claim making documentary..(well my roomate did so that's 1). Almost every documentary ever made uses editing to make their stance seem a little stronger.

My story in short:

Watched LC about 3 months ago for the first time as reccomended by my idiot roomate
Thought wow, this is crazy but there's no way it can be true, I like sources and this was lacking much...but hey I'll check it out because if it is true, I'll be damned.
Saw Roberts' Loose Changes Viewers Guide and quickly realized it's been completely debunked
Became obsessed with learning more about 9/11
Found JREF

There is a simple test for your friend.
Ask him how many version of Loose Change there have been (5 IIRC).

show him that in each version they have had to remove VAST sections of the previous version because they were wildly inaccurate and completely bogus.


I love this site blowing up 100 LIES, DATAMINES and outright distortions of the truth from LC 2nd edition...

http://emptv.com/research/loose-change

Many of the same claims were made in LC 3rd and LC AC...

When in doubt ask your roommate to go and look up the FACTS. The easiest way is to put in ANY truther claim into google and add in DEBUNKED.

[Horatius]

This is exactly how I got my mother to see sense.

I made her login to these forums to see what people who believed what she did were saying... she's too embarrassed to even bring it up anymore.



Well, I'm glad to see our local truthers are doing such a bang-up job!

:D

[JihadJane]

My friend is now a truther, any advice/ debunking points available?

Give each other a big hug.

[carlitos]

. The easiest way is to put in ANY truther claim into google and add in DEBUNKED.

Or you can use the 9/11 Power Debunker (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx% 3D016182179862191393560%3Ahx2yxincxdu&ei=ORB0TN7WJZSknQfBk5i7CQ&usg=AFQjCNHyHkc-3Xk75W_PnZh0rF6_5fYpAQ).

[ElMondoHummus]

...the 9/11 Power Debunker (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx% 3D016182179862191393560%3Ahx2yxincxdu&ei=ORB0TN7WJZSknQfBk5i7CQ&usg=AFQjCNHyHkc-3Xk75W_PnZh0rF6_5fYpAQ).

Oh... for a minute there I thought you were referring to this:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/elmondohummus/nonsmileys/cluebat.jpg

:o

[Telltale Tom]

Jamietron,

I think the best thing you and you friend can do is go to ae911truth.org and get out your credit card and sign up for a $911 per month donation. If that doesn't help clear the brain then nothing will

[Scott Sommers]

I think that, despite your friend's enthusiasm for it, you'll eventually find that most truthers (and probably him too) actually take conspiracy mythologizing rather superficially. Instead of doing anything openly constructive, the vast majority will do nothing more than make snarks at inappropriate moments and post the occasional diatribe online. And that'll likely be the extent of it.

Sure, we all worry about people turning creepy and semi-stalkerish like Killtown - or worse yet, commit actual crimes - but in reality, most will pursue 9/11 information like Star Wars fans approach fiction: They hit truther equivalents of Wookiepedia and the like, then mess around on boards posting about what they've discovered.

There's actually a decent chance that he'll discard trutherism after a while. There are people on both the conspiracy advocacy side and our rebuttal/debunking side who simply quit after a while. Either they reach a point where they believe they've done all they care to do, or they get bored. Regardless, a good deal of people just quit after a while.

I have to agree with this one. My one experience talking with a reasonable person about 911 conspiracies was related to Michale Moore's claim that significant Saudis in America were wisked away prior to the 911 attacks. This was supposed to be some statement about how evil the Bush Admistration was. When I pointed out that if this was true, Obama is also complicate because he has failed to follow up on this. The idea of Obama cooperation could lead to the idea of a one world government, perhaps lead by aliens. After that, the whole thing disappeared never to be brought up aagin.

Despite all the doomsaying here, it's possible he'll forget about it and never bring it up again. Many years ago, a woman I knew did foster care. One of the children she cared for had been the playmate of a boy who had been sexually abused and through he was exposed to inappropriate sexual play. Social workers cautioned her not to do anything too dramtic about this suggesting that since he was very young, he would likely forget if he was not reminded of it.

People go through all kinds of ideas in their lives. I have had stages where I explored UFOs, ESP, and subliminal advertizing. If the role of defending 911 Truth doesn't become part of your friends identity or a source of gratification, it could very well just vanish as something he was interested in before he realized how stupid and stigmatizing it really is.