Faith, reason and religion

[EternalUniverse]

Imagine this analogy. You are walking towards the edge of a cliff. Once at the edge, you see fog obscuring the bottom, so you are unable to view what lies below. Taking a deep breath, you leap off, putting your fate into the nature of the surface below. Is it solid ground or a river?

Reason, here, would be the cliff and everything that led up to it. It is realm of belief that can be supported or disproven with evidence. Once at the cliff, the reasoning ends - the possibility of obtaining evidence for these types of beliefs stop. What lies onward are beliefs that are unsupported (or maybe unsupportable). So, to go onward would require a "leap of faith", where the danger is in whether or not you come crashing into solid ground, or are "rewarded" by diving into a river.

What is interesting about this analogy is that it is possible to "leap" at the wrong spot. That is, instead of leaping at the edge of a cliff, you leap in an area of solid ground leading up to the cliff. This is important because it underscores the idea that you have to know where reasoning ends, and faith begins. Leap off at the wrong spot, and you are just making a leap of faith where the belief can be supported or disproven. This is like having faith in certain "medicines" (homeopathy, anyone?) while it is possible to get evidence either in support or in opposition. Perhaps this is what needs to be explained to certain supporters of faith, where it is possible that their faith can be tested.

Comments?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse
Imagine this analogy. You are walking towards the edge of a cliff. Once at the edge, you see fog obscuring the bottom, so you are unable to view what lies below. Taking a deep breath, you leap off, putting your fate into the nature of the surface below. Is it solid ground or a river?


From what I've observed it is both ground and river. :)

That is, from a great height, the effects of hitting either are identical. Put another way, science and religion issues seem to me to converge at the highest levels, and is irrespective of how or where one jumps.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
From what I've observed it is both ground and river. :)

That is, from a great height, the effects of hitting either are identical. Put another way, science and religion issues seem to me to converge at the highest levels, and is irrespective of how or where one jumps.
[overanalyzing]

Even surving the fall, you still never know...

The river could be filled with pirana.

[/overanaling]

:p

[T'ai Chi]

I'm holding out for mermaids. Lots of hot mermaids.

They'll be totally like

'ooooh t'ai chi!! you handsome hewmann!!!'

And I'll be all like

'Yeah, I know, I'm just sooo kewl!'

:)

[epepke]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


From what I've observed it is both ground and river. :)

That is, from a great height, the effects of hitting either are identical.

Actually, it's possible to survive a fall from a great height onto ground. It involves breaking a lot of bones, though.

After a certain speed, hitting water is like hitting concrete. Splat.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse
This is like having faith in certain "medicines" (homeopathy, anyone?) while it is possible to get evidence either in support or in opposition. Perhaps this is what needs to be explained to certain supporters of faith, where it is possible that their faith can be tested.

What you are talking about is just the placebo effect and is accounted for in double blind studies. This is how we know that certain "medicines" don't work.

[espritch]

This of course leaves the question of why you would jump off the cliff to begin with. Most people will not jump off a cliff without knowing whether there was water or land below. If a religious person does so, it is because he believes by faith that there is water below. But of course he cannot actually know that this is so. So in this case, religious faith is likely to get you splattered on the rocks, while a lack of it preserves your life by allowing your sense of self preservation to override a bad idea.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse
Imagine this analogy. You are walking towards the edge of a cliff. Once at the edge, you see fog obscuring the bottom, so you are unable to view what lies below. Taking a deep breath, you leap off, putting your fate into the nature of the surface below. Is it solid ground or a river?

Reason, here, would be the cliff and everything that led up to it. It is realm of belief that can be supported or disproven with evidence. Once at the cliff, the reasoning ends - the possibility of obtaining evidence for these types of beliefs stop. What lies onward are beliefs that are unsupported (or maybe unsupportable). So, to go onward would require a "leap of faith", where the danger is in whether or not you come crashing into solid ground, or are "rewarded" by diving into a river.

It's an interesting analogy, except why would anyone want to jump off a cliff?

If you say "why would anyone want to believe in God", well, the fact is billions of people have and do, while not very many people jump off cliffs.

It's a good analogy if you think that only a few people have faith in religion. A better analogy would be one that describes a more common-place deal, since religious faith is so common among people.

-Elliot

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


From what I've observed it is both ground and river. :)
[snip]
Put another way, science and religion issues seem to me to converge at the highest levels, and is irrespective of how or where one jumps.

Please explain.

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by El Greco


What you are talking about is just the placebo effect and is accounted for in double blind studies. This is how we know that certain "medicines" don't work.

You are right. The point is that some people don't understand that certain beliefs that they have (which they think is out of faith), can be tested in one way or another. My homeopathy example wasn't the best. A better example was mentioned in one of Randi's radio shows. I forgot the details, but a Korean man thought that he had special powers that made his body attract objects that would stick to his chest without him holding on to them. Randi just put baby powder on his chest, and presto, the objects didn't stick!

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by espritch
This of course leaves the question of why you would jump off the cliff to begin with. Most people will not jump off a cliff without knowing whether there was water or land below. If a religious person does so, it is because he believes by faith that there is water below. But of course he cannot actually know that this is so. So in this case, religious faith is likely to get you splattered on the rocks, while a lack of it preserves your life by allowing your sense of self preservation to override a bad idea.

That is exactly one of the important questions - what would make someone want to jump off the cliff in the first place? What makes a person take the "leap of faith"? It would depend on the subject, but my guess would be that a subject with a high amount of emotional impact would influence the possibility of jumping.

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by elliotfc


It's an interesting analogy, except why would anyone want to jump off a cliff?

If you say "why would anyone want to believe in God", well, the fact is billions of people have and do, while not very many people jump off cliffs.

It's a good analogy if you think that only a few people have faith in religion. A better analogy would be one that describes a more common-place deal, since religious faith is so common among people.

-Elliot

Yes, why would so many people take the leap of faith (I equate here believing in God as taking this leap)? I think that the metaphorical act of jumping off a cliff here is not meant to be value-laden since having faith in general is not necessarily "bad", per se. On the topic of the existence of God, it could be...I'm not sure.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by EternalUniverse


Yes, why would so many people take the leap of faith (I equate here believing in God as taking this leap)? I think that the metaphorical act of jumping off a cliff here is not meant to be value-laden since having faith in general is not necessarily "bad", per se. On the topic of the existence of God, it could be...I'm not sure.

How is taking a leap of faith (belief in God) the same as jumping off a cliff? Jump off a cliff and you're liable to smash yourself and die. For an atheist that is bad. For a theist that is bad too (suicide/testing God/taking life less than seriously).

There is no leap in believing in God if you think the universe is obviously designed. It's hardly an outrageous leap as, say, a leap off a cliff. People just don't do that very often.

-Elliot

[EternalUniverse]

Originally posted by elliotfc


How is taking a leap of faith (belief in God) the same as jumping off a cliff? Jump off a cliff and you're liable to smash yourself and die. For an atheist that is bad. For a theist that is bad too (suicide/testing God/taking life less than seriously).

There is no leap in believing in God if you think the universe is obviously designed. It's hardly an outrageous leap as, say, a leap off a cliff. People just don't do that very often.

-Elliot

It all comes down to how much of your belief is due to reason (i.e. through arguments such as "The Design Argument", "First Cause", etc.), and how much is due to faith. If the faith component is predominant, then the belief does involve a "leap" of sorts (and you are right, not necessarily as drastic as jumping off a cliff), in terms of degree.