Stephen Hawking is getting braver in his old age.

[Towlie]

Stephen Hawking used to be very reluctant to answer the question, "Do you believe in God?" Perhaps it was because of his vivid awareness of the fate of Galileo, or perhaps it was because of his physical helplessness and knowledge of what Christians are capable of, but when asked the big question in interviews it seemed that he would always evade the question.

Now it looks like he's getting braver, and he's finally coming out with what we knew he believed all along: "The mind of God" is nothing more than a metaphor.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator


Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

• Physics, not creator, made Big Bang, new book claims
• Professor had previously referred to 'mind of God'

God did not create the universe, the man who is arguably Britain's most famous living scientist says in a forthcoming book.

In the new work, The Grand Design, Professor Stephen Hawking argues that the Big Bang, rather than occurring following the intervention of a divine being, was inevitable due to the law of gravity.

more (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator)

[lionking]

Good for him. I'll have to get the book, although I've no doubt read the same stuff before.

[fossilhound]

I can't forget the image a saw a few years back of Hawking accepting communion from the pope. An image is worth a thousand words.

[lionking]

I can't forget the image a saw a few years back of Hawking accepting communion from the pope. An image is worth a thousand words.
Huh? Accepting communion means nothing. I took communion at the funeral of a friend as a sign of respect, and knelt for prayer. I am an atheist.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Towlie]

Could Richard Dawkins have had some influence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMJFfaKZXRs#t=3m23s) on Stephen Hawking?

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Huh? Accepting communion means nothing. I took communion at the funeral of a friend as a sign of respect, and knelt for prayer. I am an atheist.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

I know you didn't mean it this way, so please don't take this as an admonishment, but actually what you did is a sign of blasphemy, not respect, and is a is a violation of one of Catholicism's most sacred rituals.

Communion is a sacrament. Even other CHRISTIANS are not supposed to receive communion in a Catholic Church. There are exceptions to where other Christians can receive communion, but only in very specific circumstances. Communion is a very holy thing. You can't even receive it as a Catholic until a certain age (when you have then received your first Holy Communion). You are NOT supposed to receive the sacrament unless you believe in transubstantiation. This means that you do not think the bread and wine are symbolic. You honestly believe that the bread becomes the body of Jesus, and the wine his blood, before you take it. This is why other Christians cannot accept communiton.

Even Catholics are not supposed to receive communion if they have any unconfessed mortal sins.

I had not heard that Stephen Hawkings accepted communion. IF that is true, then he himself violated the "rules" of communion. Though the Pope could have granted him a dispensation. A dispensation is when an authority of the church essentially states that in this particular instance, not following Church laws is okay.

But in the future, lionking, you should not receive communion (at least in a Catholic Church). It is not disrespectful NOT to receive communion. Though it should be noted that your actions would probably not be viewed as disrespectful by others. First off, many may not even be aware of the Church laws on the subject. Secondly, I'm sure they would recognize that your intent was to be respectful, not to blaspheme.

[Beth]

But in the future, lionking, you should not receive communion (at least in a Catholic Church). It is not disrespectful NOT to receive communion. Though it should be noted that your actions would probably not be viewed as disrespectful by others. First off, many may not even be aware of the Church laws on the subject. Secondly, I'm sure they would recognize that your intent was to be respectful, not to blaspheme.

While this may be the case in a Catholic church, it is not universal to all Christian churches. Some have open communion where visitors are invited to participate. At a cousin's wedding(she's a Methodist minister), an invitation to take communion was given to all guests. It was not disrespectful to participate regardless of religious belief, although my dh was quite upset about it because he did not want to do so and felt quite conspicuous about stepping out of line although no one made any comment and it didn't seem to bother anyone that he chose not to participate.

[Towlie]

Good information. It could be helpful to know that if it's suggested by others that I take communion at a Catholic wedding or funeral, I can avoid it without causing an unpleasant scene. I wouldn't go as far as lionking did for anyone.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

While this may be the case in a Catholic church, it is not universal to all Christian churches. Some have open communion where visitors are invited to participate. At a cousin's wedding(she's a Methodist minister), an invitation to take communion was given to all guests. It was not disrespectful to participate regardless of religious belief, although my dh was quite upset about it because he did not want to do so and felt quite conspicuous about stepping out of line.

Yes, that's why I specified Catholic Church. I realize this is not true in all denominations.

As lionking was responding to a post regarding the pope giving communion, I assumed his own was speaking about a Catholic Church.

However, it is likely LK did not realize there was any distinction between the Catholic communion and Communion in other churches, so I may have beeen wrong in assuming their own experience was in a Catholic Church.

If that's the case, LK, then indeed my post does not apply. I was only specifically discussing Catholic communion. Other denominations have different guidelines, as Beth said.

[leon_heller]

Tony Blair, who's wife is RC, is supposed to have received communion whilst attending mass with her, which was rather naughty of him. He's now converted to catholicism; I wonder if he confessed to it when he was accepted into the church.

[wolfgirl]

At my niece's Catholic funeral, when communion was offered, a great number of us did not get in line for it, including some of those closest to her. It has nothing to do with respect, but with the fact that communion in the Catholic church is only for Catholics. Some of the family are Baptist, some of the friends are Jewish, some (myself and hubby included) are atheists.

Back to the OP, though, yay for Stephen Hawking. Enough with the appeasement, I say!

[Towlie]

I can't forget the image a saw a few years back of Hawking accepting communion from the pope. An image is worth a thousand words.I don't see how this image is worth two cents. Did it even happen?

[Dave Rogers]

I can't forget the image a saw a few years back of Hawking accepting communion from the pope. An image is worth a thousand words.

I found a couple of images of the Pope looking at Hawking's speech synthesiser and one of him touching Hawking's head, but none of Hawking accepting communion. Are you sure you remembered it right?

And, of course, how would we know whether it was consensual?;)

Dave

[SOdhner]

You can't even receive it as a Catholic until a certain age (when you have then received your first Holy Communion).

I worked at a Catholic summer camp (though I've never been Catholic myself) and when they had mass the priest would be very clear that you should only come up for communion if... (etc. etc.) Even so, my wife and I would joke about the number of kids that we were sure received their first communion at that camp. Whoops. (Best line ever? One kids came back and sat down and turned to the kid next to him and said "They say it's the body of Christ, but it tastes like cardboard.")

[carlitos]

Yes, that's why I specified Catholic Church. I realize this is not true in all denominations.

When I was a non-Catholic Christian attending a lot of Catholic weddings and funerals, I respected this distinction about half the time, and intentionally disrespected this distinction the other half. This thought process eventually led me to leave the whole shebang behind.

[Denver]

IIRC, if you find yourself prompted to go with the crowd at a Catholic service up to communion, you can, and when you get there, instead of holding out your hands for the wafer, you cross your arms across your chest. The person giving out the wafers then just gives you a blessing or something like that.

[TimCallahan]

IIRC, if you find yourself prompted to go with the crowd at a Catholic service up to communion, you can, and when you get there, instead of holding out your hands for the wafer, you cross your arms across your chest. The person giving out the wafers then just gives you a blessing or something like that.

Yes, that's the way it was done at the funeral of a Catholic friend of mine.

[Walrus32]

Jesus said, "This do in remembrance of me."

Don't need no steenking pope or minister to tell me when I can or cannot celebrate this sacrament.

[fossilhound]

Huh? Accepting communion means nothing. I took communion at the funeral of a friend as a sign of respect, and knelt for prayer. I am an atheist.

Or am I misunderstanding you?
I just remember it. My wife's family is catholic, and they'd consider it an affront if I, a confirmed atheist since the age of 9, tried to take communion. But at a funeral for a friend I would probably reconsider my position. People deserve to be respected regardless what I think of their faith.

[bokonon]

Good for him. Getting beaver can't be a walk in the park for a guy in a wheelchair at any age.

[steve s]

Good information. It could be helpful to know that if it's suggested by others that I take communion at a Catholic wedding or funeral, I can avoid it without causing an unpleasant scene. I wouldn't go as far as lionking did for anyone.

I was born and raised Catholic and I don't take communion if I'm at a wedding or funeral. Even Catholics aren't supposed to receive communion if they haven't practiced their religion for a while. They're supposed to go to confession first before jumping back in.

Steve S

[Ducky]

I can't forget the image a saw a few years back of Hawking accepting communion from the pope. An image is worth a thousand words.

You'll forgive me if I don't take your word on this picture. Link please?

Huh? Accepting communion means nothing. I took communion at the funeral of a friend as a sign of respect, and knelt for prayer. I am an atheist.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Why do you make baby Jesus cry?

[Ducky]

...And while we're at it:

89jt7zJzkNQ

[fossilhound]

You'll forgive me if I don't take your word on this picture. Link please?
I saw it on the telly. Have been Googling it. Cannot find a copy of it. Therefore it's hearsay info and I don't blame you for being skeptical.

ETA My apologies to the thread. There isn't a confirmatory image or story to be found.

[Mojo]

Now it looks like he's getting braver, and he's finally coming out with what we knew he believed all along: "The mind of God" is nothing more than a metaphor.


Surely "the mind of God" was just a reference to Newton (one of Hawking's predecessors as Lucasian Professor)?

[Mojo]

If you actually read the article quoted in the O/P (or the coverage in the Times yesterday) what he actually wrote was that "it is not necessary to invoke God". Not the same thing as a declaration of atheism. Laplace said much the same thing about 200 years ago: "Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là."

[Shrike]

Good for him. Getting beaver can't be a walk in the park for a guy in a wheelchair at any age.
Uhm...

[Towlie]

If you actually read the article quoted in the O/P (or the coverage in the Times yesterday) what he actually wrote was that "it is not necessary to invoke God". Not the same thing as a declaration of atheism.For the faithful, I'm sure that taking away God's role as creator of the universe is much more devastating than denying his existence altogether.

[fossilhound]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary."

"Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

[Towlie]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary."

"Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert EinsteinThose two sentences actually appear consecutively in an essay called Religion and Science, and together constitute the conclusion of a very interesting paragraph:How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are capable of it. We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events—that is, if he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it goes through. Hence science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death.I actually have a copy of The World As I See It on my bookshelf, but I was able to copy and paste the above excerpt from this website (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/einstein_religion.html). In my paperback version, the words "We thus arrive" begin a new paragraph.

[Paulhoff]

I hate when people used the word "GOD" as if it is just their idea of one.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I hate when people used the word "GOD" as if it is just their idea of one.

Paul

:) :) :)

And I am intensely amused when people think there is such an entity. ;)

[Towlie]

I hate when people used the word "GOD" as if it is just their idea of one.I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. Everybody has their own idea of what the concept of "god" means, whether or not they believe any gods actually exist. We can only guess how another individual actually pictures his god, or how he assumes that you picture him, her, or it. Even a religious person who knows the Bible thoroughly and believes everything in it undoubtedly has his own personal and unique mental image of God, since the Bible is purposefully vague on the subject.

The same goes for other religious concepts such as Heaven and Hell - The words mean little more than "good place" and "bad place". Like horoscopes, the more vague you are, the more opportunity you give others to fill in the blanks with details that suit them, and the easier it is to get them to accept and embrace what you've made up.

[Piscivore]

While this may be the case in a Catholic church, it is not universal to all Christian churches. Some have open communion where visitors are invited to participate. At a cousin's wedding(she's a Methodist minister), an invitation to take communion was given to all guests.

Yeah, but the Methodists only use grape juice so it's totally not worth it.

[Paulhoff]

I'm not at all sure what you're saying here.
Why, because I didn't use a thousand words or more to make a simple statement. There are main groups of so-called gods, the biggest I have to deal with comes out of the middle east. People seem to think it is a given that "GOD" means that one, and if it is broken down into what people believe. I don't have to time to go into each and everyone's idea of one.

So, here is the deal, put a label on your so-called god.

Paul

:) :) :)

In a word, geezzzzzzz.

[Towlie]

Why, because I didn't use a thousand words or more to make a simple statement. (?)Actually, you seem to be unintelligible no matter how many words you use. There are main groups of so-called gods, the biggest I have to deal with comes out of the middle east.You have to deal with groups of gods, the biggest of which come out of the Middle East. Okay. And what exactly do you do for a living that entails this responsibility?People seem to think it is a given that "GOD" means that one, and if it is broken down into what people believe."and if it is broken down into what people believe" then what? Finish your sentence.I don't have to time to go into each and everyone's idea of one.You don't have to time? What does that mean?

Sorry, I still have no idea what you're talking about. May I respectfully suggest that you proofread what you write and ask yourself if it makes any sense before you post it?

[Paulhoff]

Actually, you seem to be unintelligible no matter how many words you use.
You is funny. :D


I'll see at the JREF the 29th of this month.

Paul

:) :) :)

Oh, that would be 2010, September, last Wednesday of the month, 7:00 PM, EDST etc etc etc

All so-called gods welcome..............

[fuelair]

I saw it on the telly. Have been Googling it. Cannot find a copy of it. Therefore it's hearsay info and I don't blame you for being skeptical.

ETA My apologies to the thread. There isn't a confirmatory image or story to be found.

Located pic of meeting, but, so far, nothing re:communion. http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2008/11/meeting-of-minds.html

[Olowkow]

I hate when people used the word "GOD" as if it is just their idea of one.

Paul

:) :) :)

I agree. Especially when pronounced with that breathy tone "gahhhd". I remember a nasty scene with a guy who was shouting something like "When you're on your death bed, you'll be begging god...etc" I simply asked, "which one?" I thought he was going to harm me.:)

It really seems to me that the extremists need to feel everyone around them is as loony as they are, so they use the umbrella term "god" to cover all their crazy ideas, and somehow make the leap that the other guy gets the exact same meaning. Language is so imprecise in the first place, that it is just ludicrous to think this could happen, but when a person spends all his life studying fairy tales, he may not have much time for learning "other things".

[Paulhoff]

I'm pretty sure that the so-called god of Hawking has nothing to do with any local run-of-the-mill one, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. But the truth is that a three letter word "GOD" that can be anything to anyone brings nothing to the table for our understanding of the universe to begin with, it is a useless step and has no knowledge.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9684168/then-a-miracle-occurs-carto%202.jpg

Paul

:) :) :)

[Checkmite]

Stephen Hawking is getting something in his old age. I've been a little leery ever since that "we need to be scared of invading aliens" thing he came up with.

[Towlie]

Stephen Hawking is getting something in his old age. I've been a little leery ever since that "we need to be scared of invading aliens" thing he came up with.I remember a quote from a woman I saw on television several decades ago, but, unfortunately, I don't remember who she was. She said this:

"Either there is intelligent life out there or there isn't, and either answer is stunning."

[Paulhoff]

Stephen Hawking is getting something in his old age. I've been a little leery ever since that "we need to be scared of invading aliens" thing he came up with.
That idea has been said many times before. I watch Hawking's show couple of times and didn't think it was as big a deal as it has been made out to be. It seems that many like to make things bigger then they should be made, mainly when it something they don't want to hear.


Paul

:) :) :)

[Towlie]

I suspect that "we need to be scared of invading aliens" is an unfair interpretation of what Hawking actually said. I think that, without actually addressing the probability that there will actually be interstellar contact, he was questioning the assumption that if there is contact the beings will be benevolent and friendly. He made an excellent point and he wasn't the first to make it: We have several examples in our history of advanced people making contact with more primitive people and the outcome has always been tragic for the primitive people. Why should we assume that alien beings will behave any differently than we do?

I agree with him; the Independence Day (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116629/) model seems much more realistic than the Contact (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118884/) model.

[DrBaltar]

I read the Grand Design, and like all other popular physics books I needed to skim past the history science and physics from Pythagoras to quantum gravity. But I didn't see the answers to one of the questions he promised answering... "Why is there something rather than nothing". Did I miss it? He mentioned why space can't be empty, but space is still something. The laws that dictate that space can't be empty is something. etc

[A Christian Sceptic]

I read the Grand Design, and like all other popular physics books I needed to skim past the history science and physics from Pythagoras to quantum gravity. But I didn't see the answers to one of the questions he promised answering... "Why is there something rather than nothing". Did I miss it? He mentioned why space can't be empty, but space is still something. The laws that dictate that space can't be empty is something. etc

I heard a radio interview with the co-author (another physicist I believe).

He said that Physics now shows that - Something can be created out of Nothing.

In Hawkings Essay he published he also states that we live in a "extreme" (his word) Fine Tuned Universe.

With largely these two observations the conclusion Hawkings has come to is that apparently because we live in a "extreme" fine tuned universe that was created out of nothing there was no God needed to create this "extreme" fine-tuned universe out of nothing. :boggled: