Birth rape?

[C_Felix]

No...it isn't violating a youngin' as soon as he/she is born...get your heads out of the gutter!

Some women refer to their treatment as birth rape, especially if they had instruments placed inside them without their consent.

http://birthskirt.blogspot.com/2009/11/discussion-about-birth-rape-and-its.html

http://www.parentdish.com/2010/09/09/opinion-there-is-no-such-thing-as-birth-rape/?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%7C170077

Some deny the existence of birth trauma in mothers or believe that they or exaggerating...

Could a birth (and the whole shebang leading up to it [no pun intended]) be a traumtizing event? Sure. Things could go wrong...

This can include having Q-tips, speculums, scissors, forceps, vacuums, fingers, hands, and other objects inserted into a woman's vagina or being given an enema, IV, epidural, or C-section without her consent. Having one's water broken is another example of doctor's taking control, which is basically what rape is all about.

A reply by Heather, from the second link:
A NECESSARY medical exam during labor is NOT RAPE. I understand that there are sick and twisted people out there, but the majority of doctors are not sticking their fingers in a woman's vagina during child birth in a way that would insinuate rape.

With respect to the bolded part, I would like to add, "I highly doubt it is comparable."
Yes, if the person is a victim of a previous sexual assult, I can easily imagine a probe could stir some emotions...but, a necessary medical exam being equated to being raped.

Is this the 'victim society/complex' run amok?

[fagin]

Huh? Am I missing something?

[Professor Yaffle]

Its certainly assault for a doctor to perform any procedure on you without your consent unless it is a life threatening emergency.

[Cainkane1]

No...it isn't violating a youngin' as soon as he/she is born...get your heads out of the gutter!



http://birthskirt.blogspot.com/2009/11/discussion-about-birth-rape-and-its.html

http://www.parentdish.com/2010/09/09/opinion-there-is-no-such-thing-as-birth-rape/?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%7C170077



Could a birth (and the whole shebang leading up to it [no pun intended]) be a traumtizing event? Sure. Things could go wrong...



A reply by Heather, from the second link:


With respect to the bolded part, I would like to add, "I highly doubt it is comparable."
Yes, if the person is a victim of a previous sexual assult, I can easily imagine a probe could stir some emotions...but, a necessary medical exam being equated to being raped.

Is this the 'victim society/complex' run amok?
Women shouldn't feel that medical procedures are rape. I'm sure there have been cases of physicians acting improperly but if you get sick there a doctor needs to ply his or her trade there.

[Aerik]

There's no reason to classify this "birth rape" as any different than any other rape. Separating them plies that they have different causes, different pathologies. They don't. They are all about power and entitlement.

Somebody who rapes and claims they were just getting laid, that it was sex, is lying. They felt entitled to another person's body, and penetrated it without their consent. This applies when you force somebody against their will, or they had no will at the time (unconscious / intoxicated). That these same people will use an object or hand when their genitals are not 'functioning' how they want when they rape is proof that rape isn't about sex. It's about violence. It's not violent sex. It's sexualized violence. There is a very important distinction.

In the case here today, we're seeing doctors feeling entitled to make decisions about penetrating women's bodies, and following through with enacting them, all without the women's consent. This is also rape. It's rape regardless of the gender of the person. It's rape to stick your finger or something in somebody's vagina or anus without their consent. Whether it's sticking something up a passed out drunk person's butt, or 'fingering' a woman without asking if you could, or "accidentally" switching orifices during intercourse, or in this case, inserting fingers, forceps, and other tools while a woman is delirious or unconscious.

The entitlement comes when a doctor assumes that what they see as the most efficient way to carry out childbirth must therefore be what the woman would choose for herself. Because we are finding that in many of these instances, the doctor is way off base, that his assumptions do not match empirically with what the women say when asked, what we have is doctors penetrating women without their consent, without even the flimsiest kind of consent. That is rape and nothing but rape.

The basis for tentative exceptions under law about what a doctor can do while you are debilitated (unconscious, intoxicated, or otherwise mentally incapacitated) is that there are a few actions a doctor can take that, if the patient were given all available information, would choose for themselves. These few assumptions are i) the patient wants to live ii) the patient wants to be repaired, and iii) the patient wants to avoid crippling pain.

Is the doctor using any of this when sticking things into your vagina that aren't saving your life or even saving your fetus during a crisis? NO. That makes it a violation. We all know that we never stop thinking of our genital organs as sexual. We are seeing a pattern in these cases that doctors will dismiss this will of the patient, instead favoring what the doctor thinks is efficient. And they are doing it in ways that they just don't get away with during any other medical procedure. Childbirthing women face the experience of having all their autonomy stripped away. The fetus gets priority. For many that's fine. They're there to birth and that's also their priority.

But when the doctor assumes that is the woman's priority, the doctor is assuming how a woman wants her sexual organs to be treated, and assuming what s/he is allowed to do. And doing it in a way that doesn't happen when one's in for heart surgery, or an appendectomy, or an amputation.

It does not demean the experience of other rape victims. People who say this think only the most violent of rapes get to have that name. They are wrong. What defines rape is not just the resulting trauma. It is the motivation of the perp.

[embie]

While I can appreciate the sentiments made at the end of the first article (treat the mother with respect etc), it still reads as a victim complex to me.

Then again, as I haven't given birth myself and don't know any doctors that I could chat to on the matter, it's a bit difficult to really put myself in the stirrups of these women and give a qualified opinion.

I suppose my biggest question is: how well educated are expectant mothers on the birthing process? I mean, it's hard to cry foul if you KNOW that certain procedures are standard and you very well may end up facing them. Having hands/various medical equipment all up in your lady parts seems like it would be par for the course as well, hardly unexpected and therefore hardly rape, surely?

Or do they ONLY get information like "this will be a miracle" from friends and family and not the "you're going to fart, scream, pee and poo while a room full of strangers stare intently at your vagina and poke stuff in it"? What do the doctors tell and leave out in these cases?

[aggle-rithm]

It's rape regardless of the gender of the person. It's rape to stick your finger or something in somebody's vagina or anus without their consent.

A prostate exam is rape?

The doctor usually doesn't ask permission. He just says something like, "I'm going to check your prostate now..."

[Professor Yaffle]

Well I know that when I was pregnant, if I had become unconscious for any reason, and the baby's life would have been endangered, then I would have wanted them to intervene medically to save the baby's life. In fact I would have considered them extremely negligent not to have done so.

ETA - when I was giving birth, the midwives and doctors ALWAYS asked my permission before performing any intimate examination or procedure. Although I will say that in one case it was slightly less than informed consent.

[Aerik]

embie, even if a mother is completely educated on standard procedures in a hospital birthing process, that does not mean that by knowing, she has consented.

Edited for civility. . They had things done to them that they did not consent to. They get to decide how much it hurts, not you. You don't get to create a caricature of what a victim of a certain crime should act like, then judge others in comparison.

[C_Felix]

embie, even if a mother is completely educated on standard procedures in a hospital birthing process, that does not mean that by knowing, she has consented.

Edited for quote of modded post. They had things done to them that they did not consent to. They get to decide how much it hurts, not you. You don't get to create a caricature of what a victim of a certain crime should act like, then judge others in comparison.

Edited for response to modded text.

A doctor/nurse "going in" to see how dialated and/or effaced the woman is can be considered rape?

So, the doctors/nurses are just supposed to hang around and wait, until the head crowns?

[Professor Yaffle]

Edited for response to modded text.

A doctor/nurse "going in" to see how dialated and/or effaced the woman is can be considered rape?

So, the doctors/nurses are just supposed to hang around and wait, until the head crowns?

If the patient doesn't consent, then yes.

[Cainkane1]

If a woman goes for an exam how is a proper exam going to be done if certain organs aren't examined? To me a man or a woman or even a child needs to know what is sexual and what is not. Looking and examining sometimes digitally is pretty essential to a proper examination. I'm sure some doctors and nurses have overstepped certain boundaries but within the confines of a proper physical examination I don't see this as a violation.

[C_Felix]

If a woman goes for an exam how is a proper exam going to be done if certain organs aren't examined? To me a man or a woman or even a child needs to know what is sexual and what is not. Looking and examining sometimes digitally is pretty essential to a proper examination. I'm sure some doctors and nurses have overstepped certain boundaries but within the confines of a proper physical examination I don't see this as a violation.

YES!
There is a difference between pornography and nudity.

What Kate Winslet did in Titanic was nudity, it wasn't pornographic.

What Brittany O'Connell does is pornographic.

[Professor Yaffle]

A medical practitioner should never perform a medical procedure on a compus mentis patient without explaining what they are going to do and getting the OK from the patient first. That's true regardless of whether it is an injection in your arm, or a vaginal exam. And as I've said, that's always what has happened with me in the past.

[Aepervius]

I am sorry, but at some point one has to draw a line and say "you have a victim complex".

Calling that sort of things as described above rape is belittling not only the real victim of rape, but also the doctor work.

And anybody going to give birth in an hospital and not realizing the doctor might have to touch the intime zone during a birth is quite stupid.

[pgwenthold]

Oh, women like to complain about men gynocologists in lots of ways.

I have heard the accusation that men gynos must be perverts, because why else would they want to do vaginal exams all day.

No, it's not a common belief, but there are certainly those who hear it.

Then again, should I worry about my urologist? I went to see him, and one of the first things he said to me was, "Stand up and drop your pants."

[pgwenthold]

I am sorry, but at some point one has to draw a line and say "you have a victim complex".

Calling that sort of things as described above rape is belittling not only the real victim of rape, but also the doctor work.

And anybody going to give birth in an hospital and not realizing the doctor might have to touch the intime zone during a birth is quite stupid.

It's the inability to dissociate their body organs from sex. Apparently, anything that goes on "down there" must be sex related. It's the same problem with breastfeeding. It's not a sexual activity. If you associate it with sex, that is your hangup, not the nurse.

And I don't buy this, "they have to tell you everything they are doing and get permission before they do it" crap. When I go to the doctor, he looks in my ears. He never tells me what he is looking for, and he has NEVER asked permission to look in my ears. I just know that looking in my ears (and mouth) is part of a medical exam. Shoot, for that matter, he also has me take off my pants and lay back for a testicular exam. He's never asked permission to do that, either.

That's because I gave him permission to do an exam, and those actions are part of proper medical exam.

I realize it is N=1, but I am a case where the doctor 1) touches my genitals without my explicit permission, and 2) has even penetrated body orifices without my permission.

Why does the vagina get special consideration in this? Because YOU associate with sex? The doctor is doing it as a medical procedure.

If there were any indication that the doctor was doing it in a sexually stimulating manner to him (or her), that would be different. But that is not the accusation here, is it?

BTW, I have been in the room when my wife has been checked by the OB. There are times when she hasn't been asked permission, and the doctor says, "As part of your appt today, I will do an exam." When it comes to doing the exam, the doctor says, "I will touch the inside of your thigh" but that is to reduce the shock of the touch. During delivery, when things are flying all over, the doctor doesn't necessarily need to reduce the shock of a touch.

[SatanicSheep]

Seems like using ignorance as a defense. I just got the roots of my teeth scaled and it was more unpleasant then I thought it would be. I consented to the procedure I just didn't know what all it entailed.

[pgwenthold]

Since when has the definition of rape become "taking control"?

When I hold my son's hand when we are crossing the street, I am taking control of his actions. Is that rape? I hope not.

No, somewhere in the definition of rape, doesn't there have to be something about sexual contact?

Which gets me back to the point I made above: just because it is "down there" doesn't mean it is sexual contact. This is where the story fails. It is the inability to dissociate the genitals from sex. They have a lot of other roles, too.

[Lithrael]

Um. Hm. I guess the easiest was to obviate this problem would be to make it so that women who felt strongly about this get the opportunity to find doctors who will definitely treat them the way they want to be treated. I can understand caring a lot about this issue and I can also understand not giving a rat's ass. Probably best to team up doctors and patients with compatible attitudes.

That said, it does sound like it's definitely a problem if you're still in a position to give or withhold consent, it's not a dire emergency, and yet doctors are going and giving you an 'enema, IV, epidural, or C-section' without permission. There would seem to be a problem with medical professionals deciding on the fly that you're a situationally crazy person.

[Nursefoxfire]

Having been a victim of rape AND a woman who's given birth (C-section), I can tell you they were worlds apart.

A few things occurred to me while I was reading this thread:

1) Where is the patient-doctor communication during all this? When I found my OB/GYN, I made damn sure we had open lines of communication all during my pregnancy. There are so many delivery choices for women today, I feel a lot of the blame has to lay at the feet of the pregnant woman who didn't screen properly when finding her doctor (or doula, or midwife). If the doctor is making you feel uncomfortable in the early stages of the pregnancy, then SWITCH DOCTORS!

2) when my son's delivery date came due, I signed a torrent of paperwork placing my (and his) health and safety in the hands of the delivery and ER doctors and nurses. That included them doing procedures I may not have explicitly approved of in advance, but were considered necessary at the time. I deliberately picked a doctor who I felt could make those decisions for the sake of my and the baby's well-being. I didn't scream "Rape!" when he stuck his hands inside my abdominal cavity to remove my son.

Perhaps there have been accurate examples of women being sexually violated while giving birth, but I find it hard to believe. I tend to agree with those who've said there is a victim mentality that some are buying into, and if the birth doesn't go according to their plan, then they cry "rape". Frankly, I find that disgusting, and an insult to those of us who've actually been raped.

Trust me sister, being beaten up and thrown down on asphalt, with your clothes being torn from your body, and having a man literally rip you open, is FAR FAR different from a doctor (and accompanying nurses and anesthesiologists) assisting you in delivering your baby.

[Weak Kitten]

Isn't there a certain amount of implied consent simply by going to the hospital to have your baby? I mean, by going to where the doctors are and asking them to help you with the birth you are sort of implying that you want them to do whatever it is they need to do to help. And given the nature of the birthing process that is going to include sticking things where the sun normally doesn't shine to make certain things are going properly.

As for the whole male gynecologist thing, I've only have female gynecologists. It's got nothing to do with feeling weird with a man looking at me naked , it's just when I'm talking about a problem with my female bits I like to feel that the person I'm talking to, well, has the same bits and might have even had the same problems with them herself. It's irrational, I know, but sometimes we are all irrational.

[Professor Yaffle]

I'm not going along with the line that it is a sexual assault, but it is just good practice to make sure a patient knows and understands what you are going to do and gives their assent before you do it. This is just basic.

In my first birth, the midwife broke my waters with my consent - but I found out later that it probably wasn't the best course of action given the position of the baby, so I was a little peed off about that. Now if she had just gone ahead and broken the waters without even bothering to ask me, I would have been really peed off.

[Czarcasm]

Could someone please point out the "paranormal" aspect of this thread?

[SOdhner]

If I had to guess (and I do have to guess) I would say this would look like a bell curve if you charted it, with a few isolated people on one end who are easily traumatized possibly due to past sexual assaults or rape, a few isolated doctors on the other end whose actions can best be described as rape or assault rather than medical assistance (I've read some accounts where there's no way it was anything but this), and then the big bulge of the bell curve a range of doctors that do things where it would reasonably be expected that they would warn you or explain to you but they don't.

That middle section isn't okay even though it's not what I would personally call assault or rape. I haven't had any invasive stuff done, but when a doctor is even doing something as simple as looking in my ears it is clear that that is what they are doing. They might say it explicitly ("I'm going to look in your ear with this thing") or they might just otherwise make it clear ("Okay, turn your head..." while holding the ear-looky-thing) but I know what is going on. They don't always ask permission, exactly, but I have the chance to (for example) say "wait, I have an ear phobia, why do you need to do that?".

My roommate is in a wheelchair and people talk past her all the time. "Can she use a fork?" Gee, why don't you ask HER? It is constant. I wonder if this might not be the same thing, in a way... they somehow just don't think to talk to the patient. Anyway, whatever the reason it is something that doctors need to do as part of their job. They can't always ask permission ("Hey, you're bleeding pretty bad. I was thinking of stopping that, is that okay?") but they can at least warn you if they are going to shove something into you that you weren't aware of.

Could someone please point out the "paranormal" aspect of this thread?

Yeah, I'm sure it will be moved shortly.

[fromdownunder]

When I went into Hospital with a suspected Heart Attack (it was) at one point in the morning, a Nurse came up and said we are going to install a catheter. They did not ask permission, they just did it. The next evening, I was informed that they were going to remove the catheter and replace it with a larger one. The Nurse who installed the second one did it somewhat clumsily, and I promptly had a second Heart Attack

A few days later, my urogologist removed the catheter and shoved a camera up my penis (this was the first time I had given consent to this type of action), and discovered that I had bladder cancer. Four operations later, plus 6 lots of chemotherapy, all of which involved a catheter, I am in remission. I add just for the record, that both men and women have been handling my "private parts" during these processes (mostly women - only one male nurse and two male surgeons..

All these subsequent actions were done with my full consent, and I have another four years of having my bladder inspected from the inside 6 monthly which will also be with my consent, so they don't count.

But could the first two events be considered "sexual" assaults, just because my penis has a reproductive purpose, as well as acting as a sewer? Trust me, the first two hurt, and the penetration happened without consent. But "sexual" in any way, shape or form? I don't think so, and I doubt that the people shoving these things where I did not really want them to go thought so either.

Norm

[aggle-rithm]

A prostate exam is rape?

The doctor usually doesn't ask permission. He just says something like, "I'm going to check your prostate now..."

I'm serious about this. Is a prostate exam rape if the doctor doesn't ask permission? If not, then why not?

[Alferd_Packer]

A prostate exam is rape?

The doctor usually doesn't ask permission. He just says something like, "I'm going to check your prostate now..."


While he snaps on the latex gloves.

[Alferd_Packer]

When I went into Hospital with a suspected Heart Attack (it was) at one point in the morning, a Nurse came up and said we are going to install a catheter. They did not ask permission, they just did it.

I had a kidney stone once and the cather insertion was the most painfull part of the whole event.

{shiver}

[XBoxWarrior]

"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their" pause... "their love, with women all across the country."


Hmmmmmmmn...maybe he was onto something? :rolleyes:

[Soapy Sam]

While I'm all for patient - doctor communication and informed consent, it seems to me that the medical team have rights as well as the patient.
If the patient is not going to let them do what they consider necessary until an emergency situation develops, then I feel the meds have the right to tell that patient to find another hospital. They are not supposed to be in ER / A&E. They are supposed to be in a maternity hospital. The idea is to solve problems before they become emergencies, not to do nothing till the patient stops breathing.

[sgtbaker]

I don't mean to minimize the feeling that some women may experience during the whole birthing process but there are some things I don't understand. Of course this is barring blatant abusive situations but what is the doctor supposed to do in emergency situation?

A baby's head is caught in the birth canal, is this the time he/she is supposed to whip out a consent form so he/she can use forceps? I went through the process three times. I don't necessarily recall them alerting me to the pelvic exams throughout labor. Seeing him walking up, putting gloves on and telling me to raise my knees was enough to know what he was doing.
As for slicing, the way my doctor explained it to me, it's a spur of the moment decision. Once the baby begins the decent, that's when the doctor can tell if it's going to be problematic. The slice, as he explained it, is a mercy call because a straight incision is a lot easier and less painful to repair than a jagged tear. But again, the doctor has no way of predicting how long the actual pushing process will take so there is a good chance that by the time the doc even gets the words out, it will be too late.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Well, according to Aerik and the proponants of "birth rape" I was viciously gang raped by my own parents, along with my doctors. From age 3-6.

I had various problems as a child with both my bowels and bladder. The examination and treatment of which involved MANY incidents of my parents and/or my doctors inserting various items into both my vagina and anus. Not only did I not consent, I actively fought against it. Some of my earliest childhood memories are of being held down by my mother while my father or doctor inserted something into my vagina or rectum while I fought like a wildcat.


Obviously, no parent has the right to consent to their child being raped. But according to Aerik and other proponents, there is NO DISTINCTION between a medical professional penetrating your genitals without explicit consent, and being forcibly raped by a sexual predatory. My parents gang raped me, end of story. As has any parent who ever gave consent for their child's genitals to be penetrated.

Aerik, you consider me a victim of incestuous gang rape, and my parents rapists, correct? Or, conversely, you believe parents have the right to consent to the rape of their children. Kiddie sex rings should be totally legal so long as the parents consent.

That's this argument taken to its logical conclusion.

[themusicteacher]

Having been a victim of rape AND a woman who's given birth (C-section), I can tell you they were worlds apart.

A few things occurred to me while I was reading this thread:

1) Where is the patient-doctor communication during all this? When I found my OB/GYN, I made damn sure we had open lines of communication all during my pregnancy. There are so many delivery choices for women today, I feel a lot of the blame has to lay at the feet of the pregnant woman who didn't screen properly when finding her doctor (or doula, or midwife). If the doctor is making you feel uncomfortable in the early stages of the pregnancy, then SWITCH DOCTORS!

2) when my son's delivery date came due, I signed a torrent of paperwork placing my (and his) health and safety in the hands of the delivery and ER doctors and nurses. That included them doing procedures I may not have explicitly approved of in advance, but were considered necessary at the time. I deliberately picked a doctor who I felt could make those decisions for the sake of my and the baby's well-being. I didn't scream "Rape!" when he stuck his hands inside my abdominal cavity to remove my son.

Perhaps there have been accurate examples of women being sexually violated while giving birth, but I find it hard to believe. I tend to agree with those who've said there is a victim mentality that some are buying into, and if the birth doesn't go according to their plan, then they cry "rape". Frankly, I find that disgusting, and an insult to those of us who've actually been raped.

Trust me sister, being beaten up and thrown down on asphalt, with your clothes being torn from your body, and having a man literally rip you open, is FAR FAR different from a doctor (and accompanying nurses and anesthesiologists) assisting you in delivering your baby.

Thank you for a dose of reality, NFF.

[Dorian Gray]

There's no reason to classify this "birth rape" as any different than any other rape. Separating them plies that they have different causes, different pathologies. They don't. They are all about power and entitlement.

Somebody who rapes and claims they were just getting laid, that it was sex, is lying. They felt entitled to another person's body, and penetrated it without their consent. This applies when you force somebody against their will, or they had no will at the time (unconscious / intoxicated). That these same people will use an object or hand when their genitals are not 'functioning' how they want when they rape is proof that rape isn't about sex. It's about violence. It's not violent sex. It's sexualized violence. There is a very important distinction.

In the case here today, we're seeing doctors feeling entitled to make decisions about penetrating women's bodies, and following through with enacting them, all without the women's consent. This is also rape. It's rape regardless of the gender of the person. It's rape to stick your finger or something in somebody's vagina or anus without their consent. Whether it's sticking something up a passed out drunk person's butt, or 'fingering' a woman without asking if you could, or "accidentally" switching orifices during intercourse, or in this case, inserting fingers, forceps, and other tools while a woman is delirious or unconscious.

The entitlement comes when a doctor assumes that what they see as the most efficient way to carry out childbirth must therefore be what the woman would choose for herself. Because we are finding that in many of these instances, the doctor is way off base, that his assumptions do not match empirically with what the women say when asked, what we have is doctors penetrating women without their consent, without even the flimsiest kind of consent. That is rape and nothing but rape.

The basis for tentative exceptions under law about what a doctor can do while you are debilitated (unconscious, intoxicated, or otherwise mentally incapacitated) is that there are a few actions a doctor can take that, if the patient were given all available information, would choose for themselves. These few assumptions are i) the patient wants to live ii) the patient wants to be repaired, and iii) the patient wants to avoid crippling pain.

Is the doctor using any of this when sticking things into your vagina that aren't saving your life or even saving your fetus during a crisis? NO. That makes it a violation. We all know that we never stop thinking of our genital organs as sexual. We are seeing a pattern in these cases that doctors will dismiss this will of the patient, instead favoring what the doctor thinks is efficient. And they are doing it in ways that they just don't get away with during any other medical procedure. Childbirthing women face the experience of having all their autonomy stripped away. The fetus gets priority. For many that's fine. They're there to birth and that's also their priority.

But when the doctor assumes that is the woman's priority, the doctor is assuming how a woman wants her sexual organs to be treated, and assuming what s/he is allowed to do. And doing it in a way that doesn't happen when one's in for heart surgery, or an appendectomy, or an amputation.

It does not demean the experience of other rape victims. People who say this think only the most violent of rapes get to have that name. They are wrong. What defines rape is not just the resulting trauma. It is the motivation of the perp.And with that last sentence, you just negated everything you just said.

The motivation of the doctor is not to derive sexual gratification or to exert forceful power or control over the patient. The motivation is to determine a whole host of things that any moron with a computer could find out in 15 seconds, no offense. So, if motivation is what defines rape, then doctors and nurses are not committing rape.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Thank you for a dose of reality, NFF.

agreed

[bit_pattern]

I agree with these guys

PJ0RWsiYuEg

[Slimething]

I'm serious about this. Is a prostate exam rape if the doctor doesn't ask permission? If not, then why not?

My esteemed opinion is, not at all. It's not a sexual act so it can't be rape. Yeah, the first time's a shocker, isn't it? ;) Once you're a certain age, no competent physician is going to overlook the test. I don't think they enjoy it much either.

I can't believe anyone would have a thought this stupid (birth rape, not your question) and actually say it.

[Soapy Sam]

Aye. Prostate check is a bummer.

[aggle-rithm]

My esteemed opinion is, not at all. It's not a sexual act so it can't be rape. Yeah, the first time's a shocker, isn't it? ;) Once you're a certain age, no competent physician is going to overlook the test. I don't think they enjoy it much either.



There was a Family Guy episode about this.

Anyway, the taboo against anal insertion is so great that many people would rather die of colon cancer than get a colonoscopy, even though it is done under light anesthesia.

Having seen someone die of colon cancer...I do not count myself among them.

[Marquis de Carabas]

That these same people will use an object or hand when their genitals are not 'functioning' how they want when they rape is proof that rape isn't about sex.
No it's not. Unless it also constitutes proof that manual stimulation of or the use of a toy on a willing partner is also not about sex.

[SnakeTongue]

WTF?

Birth rape?

:dl:

Are this women serious?

What will be next?

Spoon rape: she got a trauma after her parents had used the old and traditional way to feed babys: "Here comes the airplane...".

[aggle-rithm]

Spoon rape: she got a trauma after her parents had used the old and traditional way to feed babys: "Here comes the airplane...".

There was a Simpsons about that.

[Nursefoxfire]

I agree with these guys

PJ0RWsiYuEg

Fantastic Young Turks episode, thanks!

[I Ratant]

Aye. Prostate check is a bummer.
.
At my last, the doc said "You have a young man's prostate".
Golly, I hope that young man doesn't want it back! :)
As I was in the doctor's office and care specifically for that exam, it couldn't by any stretch be termed "rape".
Rape is forcing oneself on someone who has no desire to be assaulted sexually.
Routine care and procedures during delivery aren't rape.
No sexual intent.

[Checkmite]

"Birth rape"?

If anyone ever bothered to read that piece of paper the hospital always makes you sign the moment you're admitted for treatment (assuming you're conscious), what it basically says is "If you have a problem with something a doctor is doing or suggesting, you have a right to object; but if you don't do so, your signature on this page tells the doctor that you want him to do whatever his job entails". Doctors don't stick things in you for no reason; there's always a procedural justification for everything they do; especially when dealing with patients' genitals and especially where there's a room full of nurses and your husband (presumably) standing there watching everything they do at the time. If you're uncomfortable with a strange man touching your no-no place during the delivery process - honestly, hire a midwife or have your husband deliver the baby.

[stup_id]

There's something that seemed illogical to me aboout all this...

If the mother is in a concious calmed state of mind, so she can be fully informed and give whole consent to EVERY procedure needed before the birth, then how come they don't complain in THAT MOMENT to the doctors and nurses?

If the case is the opposite, and you admit that during excruciating pain and in a vulnerable state you would not be certainly in your best to understand and give consent; then you must admit that "being fully informed, and being explained EVERYTHING" is pointless in that moment and it should suffice to give consent beforehand giving control to your medical staff during the event.

[Edx]

I dont know why people are calling it rape anyway, if anything its sexual assault not rape. Otherwise, where is the line drawn? When something goes in an orifice its rape?

[†= Crap!]

It's concepts like "birth rape" that make discussions over the actual prevalence of real rape so contentious. It muddies the definition of rape and does a great disservice to actual real rape victims by claiming some kind of equivalency between having the person delivering your baby touching your vagina to being violently sexually assaulted. It's absurd.

[bit_pattern]

"Birth rape"?

If anyone ever bothered to read that piece of paper the hospital always makes you sign the moment you're admitted for treatment (assuming you're conscious), what it basically says is "If you have a problem with something a doctor is doing or suggesting, you have a right to object; but if you don't do so, your signature on this page tells the doctor that you want him to do whatever his job entails". Doctors don't stick things in you for no reason; there's always a procedural justification for everything they do; especially when dealing with patients' genitals and especially where there's a room full of nurses and your husband (presumably) standing there watching everything they do at the time. If you're uncomfortable with a strange man touching your no-no place during the delivery process - honestly, hire a midwife or have your husband deliver the baby.

This http://forums.randi.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

/debate

[aggle-rithm]

If you're uncomfortable with a strange man touching your no-no place during the delivery process - honestly, hire a midwife or have your husband deliver the baby.

Or just do what they did in the old days...die in childbirth.

[ZirconBlue]

There's something that seemed illogical to me aboout all this...

If the mother is in a concious calmed state of mind, so she can be fully informed and give whole consent to EVERY procedure needed before the birth, then how come they don't complain in THAT MOMENT to the doctors and nurses?

If the case is the opposite, and you admit that during excruciating pain and in a vulnerable state you would not be certainly in your best to understand and give consent; then you must admit that "being fully informed, and being explained EVERYTHING" is pointless in that moment and it should suffice to give consent beforehand giving control to your medical staff during the event.

I think it would behoove any woman who has concerns along these lines to include those concerns in their birth plan, and discuss them with their OB/GYN during prenatal visits. You can't plan for every event that might happen, but you can certainly make your wishes known with regards to episiotomies, epidurals, etc. in advance.

For the unforeseen issues, they should also consider having someone with them (their partner, a doula, etc.) that is aware of their concerns and can advocate for them.

[Beerina]

A prostate exam is rape?

The doctor usually doesn't ask permission. He just says something like, "I'm going to check your prostate now..."

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