Have truthers given up?

[CHF]

So I've been away from the "scene" for almost a year and I see I've barely missed a thing.

I thought I'd check back at the nine year anniversary figuring the truthers would do....something. But it seems to have passed with barely a whimper.

Yeah, I know - the previous anniversaries weren't exactly coup attempts either, but this year they seemed especially invisible.

Here in Toronto about 30 people (out of 415 members) showed up for their usual Saturday "street action." That's up from 5-10 at a normal gathering, but still a lame showing for an anniversary.

They did the same ol' crap - standing around and preaching nonsense.

Most of the truther e-mail list these days is devoted to debating religion (the most vocal truthers in the group are also fanatical Christians), which drives off a lot of other members. Maybe 1 in 10 threads is even 9/11 related and in the run up to the anniversary there was almost nothing about it. They simply have no ideas.

From what I've heard, south of the border the big event this year consisted of Richard Gage staging a joke "news conference" for his fellow quacks.

On 9/11 itself it looks like a hundred or so truthers stood around Ground Zero with signs. Boooooring.

It's like they really don't care anymore.

[CHF]

Seriously though....have these people given up?

Is Steven Jones even bothering to fake peer-reviews? Is Loose Change version 17 in the works?

Any new "smoking guns" recently?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It's like they really don't care anymore.


9/11 Truth is just settling into the rut that it was destined to end up in. The same rut that all major conspiracy theories end up in. Most of the people who believe there's something suspicious about the event do so passively.

From here on out, if 9/11 Truth gets mentioned at all to a wide audience, it'll be as a humorous pop culture reference (like the recent The Onion article about a 9/11 Truther Memorial).

As big and loud as the movement was in 2006, reality was louder still. "We" won...

[Thunder]

As big and loud as the movement was in 2006, reality was louder still. "We" won...


pretty much.

[CHF]

9/11 Truth is just settling into the rut that it was destined to end up in. The same rut that all major conspiracy theories end up in.

Yeah I'm not surprised that the TM ended up where it's now at, but since I haven't been paying attention lately, I wonder if they're actually trying anymore.

I mean has Steven Jones tried to fake any more peer-reviews? Or better yet, has he tried to actually conduct an experiment to verify his claims?

Have there been any more "smoking guns" that would totally rock my world like the previous 2,175?

[rjh01]

Until about June abovetopsecret was a forum that was growing. Since then it has started to decrease in size. It hardly matters how you measure it. This forum in contrast is probably growing.

Ref: http://www.quantcast.com/abovetopsecret.com

[Thunder]

I think most Truthers are getting bored with the whole thing.

I know I would.

[njslim]

Well Richard "Box Boy" Gage tried to upstage the Twin spires of ligh from WTC

He and some other nuts mounted light on back of pickup to bring attention to WTC 7
which the truther clowns are pushing as "proof" of conspiracy

Nobody saw the light!

I was at Exchange Place Jersey City NJ right across the Hudson from WTC and could not see it

Epic fail again for Box Boy

[T.A.M.]

The movement, as a movement, is dead, and has been for the last 2 years. The remaining characters are MM, bill smith, a few newish irritants such as ergo and cmatrix (oh boy he is fun), and likely half a dozen PDoh and HI socks.

You hear absolutely nothing from the oldies like Jim Fetzer, Morgan Reynolds etc...

S. Jones has virtually nothing left but his paint chips and iron balls...I mean microspheres.

Gage is a DRG parrot, and DRG has practically saturated the market with his 9/11 rehash books.

I come here for gits and shiggles more then anything else.

TAM:)

[ProBonoShill]

Let's face it the truth movement is dead. They'll have one last final hurrah next Sept. and
then it's all over but the crying.

All their delusions have been debunked over and over and over again.

9/11 CT jumped the shark about 3 years ago.

I read this sub-forum more for the comedic value, than the scientific.

[Orphia Nay]

I've seen quite a few posts at various twoofy places where people admit they can't really be bothered to fight anymore. Some people blame it on the power of the NWO, some say the debunkers have muddied the waters over the years. Here's a post I read only yesterday:

i've read and heard so mutt about 9/11 over the years, and i've struggled to retain what was clear about how it all unfolded and was partially revealed, but it's like a dream now. and the work of the debunkers has been very effective in watering down what we do know over time, as rivers of rumours run over those rocks of truth and now it's a very murky picture.

[alienentity]

I've seen quite a few posts at various twoofy places where people admit they can't really be bothered to fight anymore. Some people blame it on the power of the NWO, some say the debunkers have muddied the waters over the years. Here's a post I read only yesterday:

That's very poetic. I like it.

To the OP, Truthers have given up trying to be legitimate and serious. They know they're just baiting people, but they think they're doing it for the 'right' reasons, because there is, after all, evil out there somewhere.

Based on the principle that a broken clock is right twice a day, I suppose one or two of the wild and fantastic claims of 9/11 Truth might actually jibe with reality, somewhere, someday.

Just not so far, that's all.

I'm more concerned about casual viewers - those people who know nothing but are exposed to the outright lies and myths. The people pushing the myths? They know what they're doing.

[Captain_Swoop]

I think the lack of Martial law and Bush accepting defeat in the election put the nail in the coffin.

[Derek Johnson]

I come here for gits and shiggles more then anything else.



I know what you are talking about.

[Derek Johnson]

I suppose one or two of the wild and fantastic claims of 9/11 Truth might actually jibe with reality

Good start

[MikeW]

No, truthers haven't given up. They can't. It's too much about ego now. They like that feeling of arrogant superiority, looking down on the shills and the sheeple - admitting to errors now would be just too embarrassing.

But I'm beginning to think they have an alternative strategy. They will cling to their lies, repeating them endlessly, pretending they have a case, until even the last few people who bother to engage with their frauds give up, in disgust and contempt.

And then they will pretend they've "won".

[Derek Johnson]

No, truthers haven't given up. They can't. It's too much about ego now. They like that feeling of arrogant superiority, looking down on the shills and the sheeple - admitting to errors now would be just too embarrassing.

But I'm beginning to think they have an alternative strategy. They will cling to their lies, repeating them endlessly, pretending they have a case, until even the last few people who bother to engage with their frauds give up, in disgust and contempt.

And then they will pretend they've "won".

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.

Clears throat.

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.

[MikeW]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.
In my experience, truthers who are "seeking answers" are vanishingly rare. The huge majority are only about finding support for their version of the "truth", while ignoring everything else.

[T.A.M.]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.

Clears throat.

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.

And like most of your ilk, you will leave that statement without backing it up with any kind of evidence (see "ergo" and "cmatrix" for even better examples of this behaviour).

You fit in with your crowd quite well.


TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

In my experience, truthers who are "seeking answers" are vanishingly rare. The huge majority are only about finding support for their version of the "truth", while ignoring everything else.

Exactly. The one and only truther in my area of 500,000 said to me, as we exchanged mail about 2 years ago, that he was "done with debating...done with discussion. All that matters now is getting the word out."

TAM:)

[Derek Johnson]

The one and only truther in my area of 500,000



You know this statistic how?

[Derek Johnson]

you will leave that statement without backing it up with any kind of evidence



We need to talk NIST, walk off failures and column buckling energy dissipation, buddy. I have no dearth of "backing it up".

Other thread then?

[CHF]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.

Yeah for sure, cuz truthers are known for being open-minded with regards to evidence that contradicts their theories. :rolleyes:

[CHF]

The one and only truther in my area of 500,000 said to me, as we exchanged mail about 2 years ago, that he was "done with debating...done with discussion. All that matters now is getting the word out."

The Toronto truthers seem to be the same. They really think that the only problem with their product is that not enough people have seen it.

[T.A.M.]

You know this statistic how?

Well far from scientific, but he tried to have a meeting a year ago, made it very public, and he had no one show up...was very frustrated by it, iirc.

Anyway, it was, to a degree, hyperbole. I am sure there might be another 5-6 truthers in the closet here somewhere.

TAM:)

[Horatius]

The Toronto truthers seem to be the same. They really think that the only problem with their product is that not enough people have seen it.



It's a bit like the Christians who pass out Chick Tracts (http://www.chick.com/default.asp). If you read any of those, most of the "non-Christian" characters who convert are apparently largely unaware of the existence of the Bible, or the teachings of Christians. The believers who hand out such tracts seem to think that such ignorance is the only possible explanation for people not automatically believing everything the Christians do.

So many truthers are the same way - any time you run across one in the wild, they trot out all the same old "Did you know...?" questions that we've all heard before. It's inconceivable to them that we could have heard the message, and not accepted it, and so they think success only awaits getting the message out.

[T.A.M.]

We need to talk NIST, walk off failures and column buckling energy dissipation, buddy. I have no dearth of "backing it up".

Other thread then?

You havent done it in any of your posts so far, so i am not expecting much, but feel free to start a new thread backing it up. You'll find my standards for evidence are quite high. Go for it.

TAM:)

[Sabretooth]

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.

Not when you...ya know...actually understand physics...

[leftysergeant]

There are still a lot of them crawling about You tube, some of them quite well-established, such a Simon Shack and Nuffrespect. Killtown may even be over there somewhere, although he has been banned several times under various pseudonyms.

Kind of hard to tell, sometimes, whether the newest post is from one of the usual suspects or someone else who just recently lost his marbles.

[Derek Johnson]

Not when you...ya know...actually understand physics...

Big talk...other thread.

[Panoply_Prefect]

Hell no, there is action everywhere. Do not miss the mighty force of "Artists and blatant exhibitionists actors for 911 truth" (or somesuch):

http://www.actorsandartistsfor911truth.org/

By the layout of that page they've been active since sometime around -96.

Or!

Scientists for 911-truth:

http://www.scientistsfor911truth.org/

A page that is so credible and full of facts it takes ages to load it all. Not to mention that everything moves, and there are beakers and stuff! Oh, and Heiwa is one of them, so it must be good.

[Sabretooth]

Big talk...other thread.

After you...after all, you're the engineer, right?

[Myriad]

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.


Actually Newtonian physics squares very nicely with NIST's findings (and the findings of numerous peer reviewed papers on the subject).

What's hard to "square" is Newtonian physics with your own intuition about how materials behave at unfamiliar scales. That's not because either reality or the Newtonian model of reality is deeply flawed (at least in the low-velocity realm), but because your intuition is wrong, as most people's are.

For instance, do you think very large buildings are strong? Well sure, by some measures they are. But do you think very large buildings are strong in comparison to their own weight? Do you think they are at least as strong in comparison to their own weight as, say, a cupcake, a crystal champagne glass, or a model made of toothpicks? Or even anywhere near? If you do, that proves your intuition is extremely unreliable about such things.

Caveman intuition ("Steel strong. Steel not break.") will lead you to wrong conclusions ("Witch doctor do bad magic on steel, make steel break."). You have to do the actual analysis, with actual numbers.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Jackanory]

Actually Newtonian physics squares very nicely with NIST's findings (and the findings of numerous peer reviewed papers on the subject).

What's hard to "square" is Newtonian physics with your own intuition about how materials behave at unfamiliar scales. That's not because either reality or the Newtonian model of reality is deeply flawed (at least in the low-velocity realm), but because your intuition is wrong, as most people's are.

For instance, do you think very large buildings are strong? Well sure, by some measures they are. But do you think very large buildings are strong in comparison to their own weight? Do you think they are at least as strong in comparison to their own weight as, say, a cupcake, a crystal champagne glass, or a model made of toothpicks? Or even anywhere near? If you do, that proves your intuition is extremely unreliable about such things.

Caveman intuition ("Steel strong. Steel not break.") will lead you to wrong conclusions ("Witch doctor do bad magic on steel, make steel break."). You have to do the actual analysis, with actual numbers.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Outstanding post. lol. :D

[beachnut]

..., I suppose one or two of the wild and fantastic claims of 9/11 Truth might actually jibe with reality, somewhere, someday.

...

Three; the day, the month, and the year. 911 truth might get this right if asked, but they usually don't answer questions.


(Myriad) Caveman intuition ("Steel strong. Steel not break.") will lead you to wrong conclusions ("Witch doctor do bad magic on steel, make steel break."). You have to do the actual analysis, with actual numbers.
Me like this...

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.

Clears throat.

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.

That sounds like that "Michael" nutcase who writes on my blog (which is on my signature) who refuses to accept Newtons Law.

Read what the nutcase says:

The 2.25 seconds of free fall proves fire did not cause the fall of WTC 7 because fire can't magically remove 8 stories of resisting structure simultaneously and continuously to allow this period of free fall. You may be a fireman but you have an exceptionally primitive understanding of high school-level Newtonian physics.

"2.25 seconds of free fall proves fire did not cause....." is laughable cause it proves nothing. With me being a fireman & others in here as well, he knows Jack **** about how fires cause building collapses.

[1337m4n]

Most of the truther e-mail list these days is devoted to debating religion (the most vocal truthers in the group are also fanatical Christians), which drives off a lot of other members.

More than anything, I think infighting is what killed them. We saw it with the likes of Dylan Avery, Craig Ranke, and Alex Jones: The only thing that a Truther hates more than a Debunker, is another Truther with a competing theory.

On the subject of religion, it's my experience that they're divided between extremist Christianity and extremist atheism (to the extent that you could say such a thing exists, at least). One group believes that they are almost "holy warriors" fighting against the NWO and its attempts to bring about a Satanic world order. The other group believes that all forms of religions were invented by the NWO in order to control the masses. It's all quite amusing to watch from the sidelines.



Speaking of which, what have Ranke and CIT been up to lately? I don't hear much about them anymore. Did they ever get around to releasing their complete unedited witness interviews?

[SRW]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.

2005 --- "We are just asking questions"


It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.


2010---"We don't like/understand the answers"

2025---"President Miley Cyrus is hiding the truth".

[Myriad]

2025---"President Miley Cyrus is hiding the truth".


Nah, President Cyrus is being kept in the dark by the Powers That Be. But First Lady Gaga is definitely in on it. :D

Respectfully,
Myriad

[uke2se]

Nah, President Cyrus is being kept in the dark by the Powers That Be. But First Lady Gaga is definitely in on it. :D

Respectfully,
Myriad

I like this future and wish to know more. Pics preferred.

[Kent1]

What's amazing (or not amazing depending on your view) is how little things have changed in the last few years. Truthers have advanced very little in the last 4 years and for the most part simply avoid what debunkers have to say and the websites devoted to debunking them.

[DGM]

I like this future and wish to know more. Pics preferred.
I don't know. It kind of gave me the "willys".


:eek:

[tfk]

It's hard to square Newtonian physics with NIST woo. Just sayin'.


No, it's not hard to square those two in the slightest.

It's easy to see how people who think that the acceleration profiles of "parts of collapsing buildings" are ruled by the same equations of motion as "isolated objects falling in either a vacuum or in air" can be fooled, tho.

The amateurs who might think that include non-technical people, and surprisingly, physicists, high school teachers & architects.

One wouldn't expect the same level of ignorance out of a mechanical engineer, of course...


Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.


There is a term for an engineer who hasn't been able to come to at least a provisional conclusion in 9 years about some topic awash in hard data and published analyses:

"incompetent".

Some non-engineers mistakenly consider "keeping an open mind" on a technical issue to be a good thing. This is fine in many professions, but not in any field (e.g., surgeon, pilot, a policeman or soldier under fire) where fast, mostly correct answers are crucial.

Engineers are trained & paid to come to conclusions. Fast, competent conclusions. Frequently with less than complete data.

The data set on 9/11 is not "less than complete", tho. It is overwhelming. As are the analyses provided by competent, experienced engineers.

Ergo, the only engineers left "with an open mind" on the issues are the ones with minds so "open" that their brains have leaked out.

Harsh.

But true.


tom

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Or maybe they are seeking answers and don't have their minds made up.


Pfft. Right...

It's long been very clear that most truthers are seeking validation, not answers. Most of the "experts" associated with the 9/11 Truth Movement are simply regurgitating nonsense that the dunces came up with years ago. The idiots love that sort of thing. "Someone smart agrees with me! I figured it out all by myself!"

What's amazing (or not amazing depending on your view) is how little things have changed in the last few years. Truthers have advanced very little in the last 4 years and for the most part simply avoid what debunkers have to say and the websites devoted to debunking them.


Exactly. There's no reason to evolve your "theory" if you already believe it to be truth. Your concern is now in converting people.

[SpitfireIX]

2025---"President Miley Cyrus is hiding the truth".


Erm, Miley Cyrus won't be old enough to be POTUS until 2027. :nope:

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Erm, Miley Cyrus won't be old enough to be POTUS until 2027. :nope:


More proof of the conspiracy...

[SRW]

Erm, Miley Cyrus won't be old enough to be POTUS until 2027. :nope:

Oh really? Have you seen Miley's birth certificate? I know I have not, just what is she hiding, were is this alleged birth certificate...

[carlitos]

It's a bit like the Christians who pass out Chick Tracts (http://www.chick.com/default.asp). If you read any of those, most of the "non-Christian" characters who convert are apparently largely unaware of the existence of the Bible, or the teachings of Christians. The believers who hand out such tracts seem to think that such ignorance is the only possible explanation for people not automatically believing everything the Christians do.

So many truthers are the same way - any time you run across one in the wild, they trot out all the same old "Did you know...?" questions that we've all heard before. It's inconceivable to them that we could have heard the message, and not accepted it, and so they think success only awaits getting the message out.
Good points.

Here is some self-assessment from a few folks who attended the Chicago 9/11 "street action." There were 14 signed up, but they claim 60 or 70 attended. Some of this appears to be slightly exaggerated, but I wasn't there so can't say for sure. No photos were posted on their meetup page, and let's just say that the event didn't get much media coverage...


“ Another great street action! A lot of information was passed out to a mostly receptive public. I brought over 500 AE911truth WTC7 placards and over 200 AE911truth Blueprint for Truth DVDs that were all handed out before we even arrived at the Chicago Theater. I then had over 20 Fall of the Republic DVDs that were handed out quickly in front of the ABC studio. Besides the numerous Chicago police officers that we walked by who gave us a thumbs up a highlight of the march was right at the beginning when the Brown Line "EL" train engineer slowed the train and leaned out the window at us with a thumbs up while repeatedly honking the train's horn! Good job to all that attended. ”

“ The organization for this event was fantastic. Flyers, top rate color postcard size Building 7 palm cards, big buttons, a broad range of DVD's on 9/11, and the Architect's and Engineers for 9/11 truth flyer were all available. Large banners and stick signs were available. This 9/11 group was extremely effective in passing out info. Chicago couldn't ignore the message..it was carried along the river to Millenium Park to the Bean to State Street and in front of the Chicago Theatre! So many people took some form of information it's hard to tell how many people were truely informed. Many people did not know about Bldg 7..and that was motivating them to take info! Great Job! ”

“ Around 60 or 70 people showed and passed out 1,400 DVDs, A&E 9-11 news, Republic Mag., and various literature to a more than ever receptive public. All that was needed was 200 more activist. What did you do to further the cause? JUST ASKIN', YA KNOW. ”

Fall of the Republic DVD's are Alex Jones, right?

Their message board is dead, with only 10 views and no replies to the recent Gage press conference / mock debate topic. I'm on the mailing list, and I get a mail maybe once every other month. Seems pretty dead to me.