Bad credit? No credit? Then you might just be an airline security risk!

[shanek]

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/28/133952/495

According to the Transportation Department Agency, CAPPS II will be rolled out within 90 days. CAPPS II (Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System) will check such things as credit report and bank account activity to determine the security level risk that each and every individual passenger poses.

All airline passengers meeting certain criteria will be assigned security risk levels of green, yellow and red. Those with red levels will not be allowed to fly. Passengers will not be allowed to view their personal information used in such determinations, and the information used will be on file for 50 years.

[...]

"This system threatens to create a permanent blacklisted underclass of Americans who cannot travel freely," said Katie Corrigan, an ACLU Legislative Council. "Unfortunately, history suggests that the government will be capricious, unfair and politically biased in deciding who to stamp as suspect. Anyone could get caught up in this system, with no way to get out."

Great. It's bad enough that the credit reporting system is a pathetic failure; over 50% of all credit reports have inaccurate information on them. Now, they want to base whether or not you're a security risk based on this specious information. And that's just a short step away from being able to declare these people "enemy combatants," and you suddenly disappear.

Now, tell me again why I should have voted for Bush?

[corplinx]

I don't know Shanek.

"will check such things as credit report and bank account activity "

Would this type of information have flagged any of the 9-11 hijackers?

[Crossbow]

Man the more I hear about this kind of stuff the more it makes me want to go into debt for the next 10 years, get a serious airplane, and do all of my own flying!

Ugh!

[Lisa]

Until I married Eddie, I didn't even have a credit rating. I'd never borrowed money in my life. And looky here, a credit report that show's I was late paying off my Victoria's Secret card...three years ago.
I guess I'm about as subversive as they get.:rolleyes:

[corplinx]

Well, I am thinking the program's logic won't take your credit report as the only factor. Didn't one of the 9-11 hijackers use credit card to buy his airline tickets?

If so, I am wondering if there was some discrepency in his credit history that they may profile for in the future.

I think this "poor people wont be able to fly" is a red herring out of political activism. Of course, I could be wrong and this could be as intrusive and unfair as the article suggests.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Lisa
Until I married Eddie, I didn't even have a credit rating. I'd never borrowed money in my life. And looky here, a credit report that show's I was late paying off my Victoria's Secret card...three years ago.
I guess I'm about as subversive as they get.:rolleyes:

You think you've got troubles? My credit says I've had a Chrysler van and an Honda Accord repossessed! The only Accord I've ever owned was totalled by a drunk driver, and I've never even been in a Chrysler van! This makes my house payments $300-400 more than they should be; but, alas, there's nothing I can do (and I've tried). The credit reporting agencies just report what they're told and are under no obligation to verify it, and the banks only have to confirm that they sent the information to the credit agencies, not that it's correct (how is this not libel???). The government has the system set up where no one is to blame.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by shanek
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/28/133952/495



Great. It's bad enough that the credit reporting system is a pathetic failure; over 50% of all credit reports have inaccurate information on them. Now, they want to base whether or not you're a security risk based on this specious information. And that's just a short step away from being able to declare these people "enemy combatants," and you suddenly disappear.

Now, tell me again why I should have voted for Bush?

Potentially scary, yes, but your excerpt doesn't say anyplace that being a CREDIT risk is one of the flagging criteria (I'll read the whole thing and see if that holds up).

Maybe this isn't about checking you credit history per se, and maybe more about looking for transactions with Saudi Arabian banks and such? In any event it seems premature to assume that the poor are being targeted.

As if the ailing airlines can afford to pick and choose these days...!

[Victor Danilchenko]

shanek

You think you've got troubles? My credit says I've had a Chrysler van and an Honda Accord repossessed! The only Accord I've ever owned was totalled by a drunk driver, and I've never even been in a Chrysler van!My condolences. My friend once got arrested for something his namesake did... but he was able to clear it up in under a day.

This makes my house payments $300-400 more than they should be; but, alas, there's nothing I can do (and I've tried). The credit reporting agencies just report what they're told and are under no obligation to verify it, and the banks only have to confirm that they sent the information to the credit agencies, not that it's correct (how is this not libel???). The government has the system set up where no one is to blame.the government? Isn't the entire credit checking system private? the credit agencies are private, and the banks use them voluntarily. Errors or no, it does give the banks good results in most cases...

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by shanek


You think you've got troubles? [snip]
. . . but, alas, there's nothing I can do (and I've tried). The credit reporting agencies just report what they're told and are under no obligation to verify it, and the banks only have to confirm that they sent the information to the credit agencies, not that it's correct (how is this not libel???). The government has the system set up where no one is to blame.

Shanek:

I am not a credit/consumer attorney, but am generally aware of a few things under federal law -- and probably your state laws -- that may provide you with some protection. Do a search on "Fair Debt." At the very least, you have the right (IIRC) to place an explanation in the file that must be given out at the time that any information on you is handed out by one of these agencies.

You may want to consult an attorney -- if he or she can help you save that much money every month, then his or her fees would not seem too unreasonable.

NA

Originally posted by corplinx
I don't know Shanek.

"will check such things as credit report and bank account activity "

Would this type of information have flagged any of the 9-11 hijackers?

The original article from CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/02/28/airport.security.ap/index.html) gives a less hysterical spin on this program.

It also says:



Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.



If you take what shanked posted:


According to the Transportation Department Agency, CAPPS II will be rolled out within 90 days. CAPPS II (Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System) will check such things as credit report and bank account activity to determine the security level risk that each and every individual passenger poses.


and compare it to the source(CNN) article:


Transportation officials say a contractor will be picked soon to build the nationwide computer system, which will check such things as credit reports and bank account activity and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.

you see a glaring omission.

Read the full CNN story.

One other thought. Does anyone seriously believe the TSA has the manpower and the time to check the bank records of every single person who flies? Come on!

The way the computer program probably works is to compare the names of passengers to a list of people on a watch list. Then, if their name pops up on a flight reservation, the program dives into their bank records to see if they have made any recent large cash transactions, or made any unusual purchases with their credit card.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
the government? Isn't the entire credit checking system private?

Nope; I found that out the hard way. The government has regulated the bejeezus out of it until no one at all is responsible for the information your credit report contains.

Something with that great a failure record would never be tolerated in the free market. Or do you think banks want to turn down loans to people who really do have a good chance of paying them back because of information that isn't true?

[shanek]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
I am not a credit/consumer attorney, but am generally aware of a few things under federal law -- and probably your state laws -- that may provide you with some protection. Do a search on "Fair Debt." At the very least, you have the right (IIRC) to place an explanation in the file that must be given out at the time that any information on you is handed out by one of these agencies.

Can you back that up? Because I've heard that, although that's how it's supposed to work on paper, that's not really the case. And I've been trying to get such an explanation on my credit report for three years now and it still isn't there.

You may want to consult an attorney

I did; he said I basically have no legal recourse. Essentially, there's no one to sue.

[corplinx]

There was a good segment on this topic on O'Reilly tonight. The first amendment attorney he talked to about it brought up some good points as did Bill.

Both of them said that only Delta was using this new system. Is this true? And if it is then does your right to travel override Delta's ride to service whomever they want?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Poor people shouldn't be allowed to fly. They smell bad.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by shanek

Can you back that up? Because I've heard that, although that's how it's supposed to work on paper, that's not really the case. And I've been trying to get such an explanation on my credit report for three years now and it still isn't there.

Nope; can't back it up without digging around -- I do believe that there is a legal requirement, but it is possibly limited to a state law here. Alternatively, it mught be part of the federal laws on the subject, but have no method of enforcement.

If an attorney who handles this type of claim [assuming that he handles debt relief and/or consumer protection cases regularly] gave that opinion, then I am ill-equipped to counter it. If he has not done a lot of work in this specific area, I would look for someone that does this stuff specifically -- your local bar association whould have a list of attorneys who specialize, and may be able to steer you to someone.

I'll see what I can dig up in the meantime, but will be slammed until the weekend, so may take a few days.

NA

[Questioninggeller]

That makes no sense. In a time when fewer people are getting on plans and there is more security as the airlines are bankrupt... the US wants less people on the planes.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Questioninggeller
That makes no sense. In a time when fewer people are getting on plans and there is more security as the airlines are bankrupt... the US wants less people on the planes.

I doubt that if sample sets run through the the new program were producing too many false positives that Delta would have had it developed. They do want butts in seats after all.

However, I would be interested in how they plan to do credit checks since a frequent flyer would be checked often and therefore their credit rating would drop. My guess is that a credit check is probably one of the last things checked in a decision tree.

My guess is that the program looks at country of origin, age, and many other factors looking for people who match a profile. If that profile is mostly met then they probably check other data looking for corroborating factors to make a red hit.

My guess is most of these factors are made to match the profile of the 9-11 hijackers and other hijackers. In other words, it is a system that can be easily defeated since all a hijacker has to do is not fit the easily guessable profile.

Seriously, I doubt Delta is going to do a credit check on everyone who buys a ticket. That would set up a serious class action suit since credit checks can lessen your credit rating.

My trip to the Amazing Meeting is the last plane trip I am going to take voluntarily until the airlines figure out that six foot tall men are people, too.:mad:

[corplinx]

Originally posted by LukeT
My trip to the Amazing Meeting is the last plane trip I am going to take voluntarily until the airlines figure out that six foot tall men are people, too.:mad:

I flew this weekend and the first class steward didnt offer me a drink when I sat down. He hid up front so I couldnt flag him down either. I have never flown first class and not been offered a drink. Neither was anyone else in first class.

I finally flagged down the coach steward and she said she would get me a drink "in a minute". 20 minutes later when I finally made eye contact with her again, she explained to me that she would take care of me once we got in the air and that she couldn't get me a drink because they were "speed boarding".

At this point, I became upset since I think the lie she told me was poorly conceived and could fool noone but a complete rube. She simply forgot or didn't care to get my drink. Meanwhile, the first class steward was still hiding in the beverage area.

The outright rudeness and laziness of these people amazed me. They know you aren't going to bitch them out on the plane either unless you want the plane to stop and a man with a rubber glove covered with a jelly to await you back at the gate.

The airline (for the sake of anonymity) I will call NorthWorst. To be fair, this is the only first class flight I have ever taken with them where first class only meant a seat you could actually sit in with a 36 inch waist.

Since it wasn't a meal flight. My first class ticket bought me a full can of diet soda versus the small cup people got in coach. Mind you, I got this soda one hour and fifteen minutes after sitting down in the plane.

And of course, if you have a complaint about the service, _noone_ at a NorthWorst hub airport can take your complaint. You have to mail a letter to an address they provide.

[Victor Danilchenko]

shanek

Nope; I found that out the hard way. The government has regulated the bejeezus out of it until no one at all is responsible for the information your credit report contains.Oh come on, are you saying that there would be someone responsible with less regulation? it's freedom of association, dontcha know. the banks voluntarily use the information provided by the credit agencies, just as the store owners in the south voluntarily forbade blacks to enter the premises. If you are against anti-segregation laws, then I fail to see how you can be consistently for a much stronger gov't oversight of the banking industry.

Something with that great a failure record would never be tolerated in the free market.But it is tolerated, and those are private companies. Your faith in the free market it touching, but it doesn't withstand the reality check.

Or do you think banks want to turn down loans to people who really do have a good chance of paying them back because of information that isn't true?The banks just care that the information be true enough, frequently enough. It becomes a cost/benefit thing -- correcting the error may be simply more costly that it's worth for the credit report company (where 'worth' includes the value of the credit report info to the banks); and so people like you end up getting shafted by the market. No different from Joe Sixpack in the middle of Bumble****, Nowhere not getting a local cable service because it's just not worth the trouble for the cable company to run the wires there. Free market, dontcha know.