Illegals sending $$$ to the old country

[Tmy]

Ive heard Oreilly use this as a point on why we need to seal the borders and stop the illegals. Sure an outflow of domestic cash is not a good thing, but is it really that bad?

Its going to some poor country in the hopes of makeing life better for family members. Our own govt sends billions to these countries, how much of that reaches those in need? If some Mexicans sends a few bucks back to mom, I'm sure that'll be used to buy food , clothing, medicine or other basic needs. Probably more efficient dispersment tool than handing a big chunk of cash to shady govt officials.

[Drooper]

Would he object if the money was spent on booze and cigarettes?

These people EARN the money. It is their financial recompense for the contribution they have made to output in the US. They earned it, they can do what they like with it.

From an economic point of view: so what if they send some out, it is a puny capital outflow.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ive heard Oreilly use this as a point on why we need to seal the borders and stop the illegals. Sure an outflow of domestic cash is not a good thing, but is it really that bad?


What I find obscene is paying celebrities $20,000,000 to act for six weeks on a film, or putting them up in $8,000-a-night hotel rooms, or giving them $20,000 "gift baskets" to announce the 'winners' of the Golden Globes or Emmys. Or you have Kobe buying a 4 million dollar ring to suck up to his wife after cheating on her.

Those examples are far more obscene to me than some illegal alien janitor sending 50 bucks a month to his family in El Salvador, at least he "works" for a living.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ive heard Oreilly use this as a point on why we need to seal the borders and stop the illegals. Sure an outflow of domestic cash is not a good thing, but is it really that bad?

Its going to some poor country in the hopes of makeing life better for family members. Our own govt sends billions to these countries, how much of that reaches those in need? If some Mexicans sends a few bucks back to mom, I'm sure that'll be used to buy food , clothing, medicine or other basic needs. Probably more efficient dispersment tool than handing a big chunk of cash to shady govt officials.

My objection is this: life in these countries is bad -- to the point where people are willing to break the law just to live as second-class citizens in the U.S. Now they're sending money back, and for what? To help improve societal conditions there? No, to make the status quo more liveable for their relatives. It reduces the incentive to change and, in effect, subsidizes the governments which are happy to maintain a low quality of life for their citizens.

Jeremy

[Agammamon]

I'm unsure as to why O'reilly would see the outflow of dollars as a bad thing. Those dollars buy stuff. In essence someone, somewhere has floated us a loan and our collateral is a few pieces of colored paper. Seems like a winning situation for us.

[Cleon]

I swear, if there was a "schmuck of the year" award, it would be a running battle to see if anyone could beat O'Reilly for the honor.

LEGAL immigrants send money home, too!

How this becomes a problem just because "illegals" do it mystifies me.

[jj]

Originally posted by Cleon
I swear, if there was a "schmuck of the year" award, it would be a running battle to see if anyone could beat O'Reilly for the honor.

Well, taking your pejoritive conceptually instead of physically, how about Coulter?

[Zero]

Originally posted by jj

Well, taking your pejoritive conceptually instead of physically, how about Coulter? Ummm, we can send her out of teh country too? How much will it cost, and where do you want me to send the money?!?;)

[Cleon]

Originally posted by jj

Well, taking your pejoritive conceptually instead of physically, how about Coulter?

Eh. Coulter doesn't have a TV "news" show that she claims is a "no-spin zone." Her message seems to be, "I'm evil, I'm dishonest, and proud of it!" I couldn't really put her in the "schmuck" category; at least she's consistently evil and dishonest. And she's upfront about it. O'Reilly puts on this "fair and balanced" farce.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



What I find obscene is paying celebrities $20,000,000 to act for six weeks on a film, or putting them up in $8,000-a-night hotel rooms, or giving them $20,000 "gift baskets" to announce the 'winners' of the Golden Globes or Emmys. Or you have Kobe buying a 4 million dollar ring to suck up to his wife after cheating on her.

Those examples are far more obscene to me than some illegal alien janitor sending 50 bucks a month to his family in El Salvador, at least he "works" for a living.

Careful...your class envy is showing...

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Careful...your class envy is showing...

I don't really know anyone who envies Kobe his "class."

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ive heard Oreilly use this as a point on why we need to seal the borders and stop the illegals. Sure an outflow of domestic cash is not a good thing, but is it really that bad?


Maybe I just don't get how this works, but if an immigrant in America sends dollars to a relative in, say, Mexico, doesn't that relative then take it to the bank for conversion into pesos?

I mean, even in a tourist-infested town like Cancun, you have to use pesos for most purchases. The places that accept dollars only do so out of courtesy for the dumb gringos who didn't convert enough at the airport, at least in my experience. I imagine that away from high-traffic dollar areas, pesos are the only way to go.

So if the dollars are getting converted to pesos anyway, does it matter if its done by some poor local or a tourist? I imagine tourism money far outweighs the cash streams coming in for the natives. It all goes through a bank anyway, right?

Or can hovel-dwellers buy their groceries with Hamiltons and Jacksons?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


I don't really know anyone who envies Kobe his "class."

You mean his class A felony?

(or whatever the hell it is when you drive to the hole without permission)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Careful...your class envy is showing...


It's not really class envy. Take Kobe for instance, wouldn't it be neat if he donated $3,500,000 million to charity and gave his wife a $500,000 ring?

Or wouldn't it be cool if the celebrity-multimillionares didn't accept a $30,000 gift basket for announcing a winner at the Emmys or Oscars and gave the $30,000 to a worthy cause?

I can accept an illegal alien making minimum wage and sending money home before I can rationalize that kind of crap.

[Zero]

I've never heard Bill O'Reilly blast corporations for outsourcing jobs overseas, getting an overseas address to avoid paying taxes, or even complaining about buying designer clothing from European designers. All of those things certainly cost alot more money han someone spending their hard-earned pddly wages on their family back home.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



It's not really class envy. Take Kobe for instance, wouldn't it be neat if he donated $3,500,000 million to charity and gave his wife a $500,000 ring?

Or wouldn't it be cool if the celebrity-multimillionares didn't accept a $30,000 gift basket for announcing a winner at the Emmys or Oscars and gave the $30,000 to a worthy cause?

I can accept an illegal alien making minimum wage and sending money home before I can rationalize that kind of crap.

Those celebrities earned their money too, should they feel bad they get paid more?

[shecky]

If it's such a problem, why doesn't O'Reilly attack the businesses hiring illegal immigrants? If there were no jobs in the US for them, they wouldn't be risking life to cross the border.

[Zero]

Originally posted by shecky
If it's such a problem, why doesn't O'Reilly attack the businesses hiring illegal immigrants? If there were no jobs in the US for them, they wouldn't be risking life to cross the border. Because those people pay Fox's bills...it is always easier to kick the weak, because they can't kick back.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Those celebrities earned their money too, should they feel bad they get paid more?


The earning part I have no problem with. It's the over-the-top spending part. I mean come on, $30,000 gift baskets for announcing a winner at the Emmys?...most people don't see $30,000 a year...

Anyhow, that is not the topic of the thread. Just something I used as an example.

[shuize]

As long as the tax man gets a bite of it somewhere in the process, I don't really care if the illegals send a few dollars home. I could be wrong, but I think the best example of this is when employers withhold money on the fake social security numbers the illegals are required to produce but from which they will never be able to collect.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



It's not really class envy. Take Kobe for instance, wouldn't it be neat if he donated $3,500,000 million to charity and gave his wife a $500,000 ring?

Or wouldn't it be cool if the celebrity-multimillionares didn't accept a $30,000 gift basket for announcing a winner at the Emmys or Oscars and gave the $30,000 to a worthy cause?

I can accept an illegal alien making minimum wage and sending money home before I can rationalize that kind of crap.

Cool...crap..."utopian dreaming" is more like it.

Its his money...Its the Academy's money.

They can burn it if thats what they decide thay want to do with it. Period.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



The earning part I have no problem with. It's the over-the-top spending part. I mean come on, $30,000 gift baskets for announcing a winner at the Emmys?...most people don't see $30,000 a year...

Anyhow, that is not the topic of the thread. Just something I used as an example.

That "over-the-top spending" remark? That "most people don't make a year what the Oscars spend on a gift basket" remark?

That's the class envy I was talking about.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Kodiak


That "over-the-top spending" remark? That "most people don't make a year what the Oscars spend on a gift basket" remark?

That's the class envy I was talking about.


Is it class envey or "fame envy". You often here those remarks directed at the salaries of actors, athletes, and musicians.

Rarely do you here people commenting on the income or bonuses of CEO's and other high paid business types. Its almost like they deserve their millions but entertainers do not.

Whats more offensive? Joe Actor getting 2 million for a bomb of a film or Joe CEO getting a 2 million bonus after laying off a few thousand employees.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Kodiak
That "over-the-top spending" remark? That "most people don't make a year what the Oscars spend on a gift basket" remark?That's the class envy I was talking about.


I don't 'envy' actors getting $30,000 gift baskets for announcing winners at the Emmys. I don't 'want' a $30,000 gift basket, I don't 'want' to be an actor. Ergo, I don't envy them Kodiak.

What I find strange is in a country that pays 'actors' $20,000,000 to 'act' for a few weeks and gives $30,000 gift baskets for announcing winners in a self-mastubatory event to congratulate themselves is less appauling to people than some poor illegal alien sending money home to his family.

Focus on the subject Kodiak, rather than me.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



I don't 'envy' actors getting $30,000 gift baskets for announcing winners at the Emmys. I don't 'want' a $30,000 gift basket, I don't 'want' to be an actor. Ergo, I don't envy them Kodiak.

What I find strange is in a country that pays 'actors' $20,000,000 to 'act' for a few weeks and gives $30,000 gift baskets for announcing winners in a self-mastubatory event to congratulate themselves is less appauling to people than some poor illegal alien sending money home to his family.

Focus on the subject Kodiak, rather than me.

The difference (and I'm not surprised you don't get this) is that the first two groups above are a part of, and thrive within, the system and are thusly rewarded.

Illegal aliens, on the other hand manipulate, cheat, and rob the system and reward outsiders.

How's that for focus?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Kodiak


The difference (and I'm not surprised you don't get this) is that the first two groups above are a part of, and thrive within, the system and are thusly rewarded.

Illegal aliens, on the other hand manipulate, cheat, and rob the system and reward outsiders.

How's that for focus?

If Im not mistaken quite a few of the Oscar nominees are in fact forgieners. Forgieners being payed millions by US filmmakers who couldve hired americans to do the job.

Adn you all laughed at me when I wanted to boycott the "Miracle" film cause it was filmed in Canada:p

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tmy


If Im not mistaken quite a few of the Oscar nominees are in fact forgieners. Forgieners being payed millions by US filmmakers who couldve hired americans to do the job.

Adn you all laughed at me when I wanted to boycott the "Miracle" film cause it was filmed in Canada:p

They are all members of SAG and pay taxes on their income.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Kodiak
The difference (and I'm not surprised you don't get this) is that the first two groups above are a part of, and thrive within, the system and are thusly rewarded.Illegal aliens, on the other hand manipulate, cheat, and rob the system and reward outsiders.How's that for focus?


Rewarded?...rewarded?...for what?..."acting"? Saving lives should be rewarded, curing diseases should be rewarded, fighting for your country should be rewarded, teaching children should be rewarded....but 'acting' deserves no reward, especially $30,000 in gifts to say the names of a winner for 5 minutes at the Oscars.

If J Lo dropped off the face of the earth today it would not change the course of history one single bit.

And illegal aliens do manipulate, cheat, and rob from the system, that is uncontested from me.

[Tmy]

Yeah, then they take their millions back to their country. But I guess its ok for the rich to abuse the system.

But if some poor shmuck makes a few bucks cleaning moviestars toilets and then sends $20 back to mom, well hes worse than HITLER!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



Rewarded?...rewarded?...for what?..."acting"? Saving lives should be rewarded, curing diseases should be rewarded, fighting for your country should be rewarded, teaching children should be rewarded....but 'acting' deserves no reward, especially $30,000 in gifts to say the names of a winner for 5 minutes at the Oscars.


On an abstract level, I agree with you. But who is to determine what is a "worthy" salary for "worthy" efforts? It's all subjective. That's why I'm glad the markets set the prices, even if I shake my head every time I hear how much a Mickey Rourke or a Tom Green is getting paid for their next movie.

After all, I'm sure there are people who would think I'm grossly overpaid for what I do, particularly on slow days when I'm just fooling around on the internet.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy

But if some poor shmuck makes a few bucks cleaning moviestars toilets and then sends $20 back to mom, well hes worse than HITLER!

I still want to know if there is any functional difference between money sent to relatives and tourists spending money in a foreign country. I can't think of any real distinction, except that tourist dollars are funneled into a specific portion of the foreign economy, whereas money sent home would probably be spread around a bit more.

I mean really, what's the difference? It all goes through foreign banks anyway. And people trade in foreign currency all the time on a massive scale. What about the money drain there when the dollar is low?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Jocko




After all, I'm sure there are people who would think I'm grossly overpaid for what I do,.

Nah, they all just think your gross.



Since when are you in Conn.?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy


Nah, they all just think your gross.


No argument here.


Since when are you in Conn.?

Since you went on Atkins, tubby.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak

Illegal aliens, on the other hand manipulate, cheat, and rob the system and reward outsiders.


Yep. They're just evil, evil people. They've got long pointy noses, beady little eyes, and their entire mission in life is to rob hardworking Americans of quality $1.50-per-hour jobs.

[Tmy]

Just chalk up the Oreilly bitching to xenophobia and scapegoating.
"Seal the borders" ok thats not a waste of money.




Im not fat Im big boned. I was in DC last week and made Ivan buy me lunch. He wouldnt spring for the supersized, cheap bastard.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon


Yep. They're just evil, evil people. They've got long pointy noses, beady little eyes, and their entire mission in life is to rob hardworking Americans of quality $1.50-per-hour jobs.

For whose benefit are you demonstrating this level of absurdity?

Not for mine, I hope... :(

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



Rewarded?...rewarded?...for what?..."acting"? Saving lives should be rewarded, curing diseases should be rewarded, fighting for your country should be rewarded, teaching children should be rewarded....but 'acting' deserves no reward, especially $30,000 in gifts to say the names of a winner for 5 minutes at the Oscars.

Ah....

The world according to zenith-nadir....

:nope:

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Ah....The world according to zenith-nadir....:nope:



This is what I find bizzare. I have a couple of other posters here at JREF who go out of their way to criticize my opinions. They will just drop into threads I am posting in and drop zenith non sequitur bombs.

If this thread was in the Flame section and I was the topic of the thread I could see zenith non sequitur bombs being "topical", since this thread is neither I find the attention "flaming" and thread derailing. But that's ok, I have broad shoulders.:D

Perhaps you could concentrate on the topic Kodiak, instead of endlessly focusing on how much you think I suck.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak


For whose benefit are you demonstrating this level of absurdity?

Not for mine, I hope... :(

I have instinctive, knee-jerk condescension to comments like "Illegal immigrants manipulate, cheat, and rob the system." These aren't bad people out to rob, steal, and plunder. They're hard-working, normal folks who are trying to make something out of life for them and their families.

I happen to live in a community where the majority, probably the vast majority, of residents are immigrants of questionable legal standing. The door-to-door preachers don't even speak English. I get really ticked at people who make sweeping generalizations about an entire class of people who get treated like $h!t and yet are still blamed for everything that's wrong with the US.

Sorry, I know this is probably not where you're coming from, but that was the source of my sarcasm.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir




This is what I find bizzare. I have a couple of other posters here at JREF who go out of their way to criticize my opinions. They will just drop into threads I am posting in and drop zenith non sequitur bombs.

If this thread was in the Flame section and I was the topic of the thread I could see zenith non sequitur bombs being "topical", since this thread is neither I find the attention "flaming" and thread derailing. But that's ok, I have broad shoulders.:D

Perhaps you could concentrate on the topic Kodiak, instead of endlessly focusing on how much you think I suck.

I don't think you suck. I think you have a utopian view of the world where the "show-biz rich" or the "pro athlete" rich do not deserve what they earn, while others you do deem "worthy", do not receive enough.

I have posted comments to this affect previously in this thread which you deny. My smart-a$$, or flippant, or wry remark (whatever) was just a different technique to demonstrate the same point.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon


I have instinctive, knee-jerk condescension to comments like "Illegal immigrants manipulate, cheat, and rob the system." These aren't bad people out to rob, steal, and plunder. They're hard-working, normal folks who are trying to make something out of life for them and their families.

I happen to live in a community where the majority, probably the vast majority, of residents are immigrants of questionable legal standing. The door-to-door preachers don't even speak English. I get really ticked at people who make sweeping generalizations about an entire class of people who get treated like $h!t and yet are still blamed for everything that's wrong with the US.

Sorry, I know this is probably not where you're coming from, but that was the source of my sarcasm.

Fair enough. I never said that illegal aliens are "everything that's wrong with the U.S." and I do not think they are "evil".

I do think, however, that they are willing to risk violating the laws of my country for profit ("profit" as in making more than they would if they stayed home, not "profit" as in "oodles of dough"). Though what they might earn on an individual basis may not be alot, they are earning it illegally.

What kind of image would immigrants and immigration have if we had no illegal aliens in the US??

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Fair enough. I never said that illegal aliens are "everything that's wrong with the U.S." and I do not think they are "evil".

I do think, however, that they are willing to risk violating the laws of my country for profit ("profit" as in making more than they would if they stayed home, not "profit" as in "oodles of dough"). Though what they might earn on an individual basis may not be alot, they are earning it illegally.

What kind of image would immigrants and immigration have if we had no illegal aliens in the US??

You make it soudn like they are engaged in some illcite trade. They may be here illegally but they are earning their pay. There is allways the focus on the immigrant. Whta bout the employer "illeaglly paying".

Yes staying here illegally is a crime. But its not exactly a violent horrobel act. Im not for open immigration but it bugs me how the poor schulb immigrants gest so much grief.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Kodiak

I do think, however, that they are willing to risk violating the laws of my country for profit ("profit" as in making more than they would if they stayed home, not "profit" as in "oodles of dough"). Though what they might earn on an individual basis may not be alot, they are earning it illegally.

What kind of image would immigrants and immigration have if we had no illegal aliens in the US??

This is exactly the kind of psychosis Americans have about illegal immigration. Nobody complains when they want cheap labor to staff the car washes, bus tables, clean construction sites, pick crops, mow lawns, etc.

In other words, there are plenty jobs here almost specifically for illegal immigrants. And nobody really wants to eliminate that cheap labor pool. Pointing the finger ultimately points back in your own direction. Americans vote with their dollars to look the other way regarding illegal immigration.

Perhaps Americans should count their blessings and be glad they're not considering a clandestine breach across the border into Mexico to find work.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tmy


You make it soudn like they are engaged in some illcite trade. They may be here illegally but they are earning their pay. There is allways the focus on the immigrant. Whta bout the employer "illeaglly paying".

Yes staying here illegally is a crime. But its not exactly a violent horrobel act. Im not for open immigration but it bugs me how the poor schulb immigrants gest so much grief.

They are earning that pay illegally!! No legal status, no minimum wage, no social security card, no W-2, no OSHA, no pension, no 401-K.

The employer(s) should be prosecuted and sentence within the confines of the law.

I never said illegal aliens were "violent" or "horrible", just criminals who cheat, rob, and take advantage of a system they do not belong to.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by shecky


This is exactly the kind of psychosis Americans have about illegal immigration. Nobody complains when they want cheap labor to staff the car washes, bus tables, clean construction sites, pick crops, mow lawns, etc.

In other words, there are plenty jobs here almost specifically for illegal immigrants. And nobody really wants to eliminate that cheap labor pool. Pointing the finger ultimately points back in your own direction. Americans vote with their dollars to look the other way regarding illegal immigration.

Perhaps Americans should count their blessings and be glad they're not considering a clandestine breach across the border into Mexico to find work.

True. If there were no work for them they wouldnt come.

If the southwest is having such a problem the solution should be to hit the businesses who hire them. Better to take out the dealers than the users. Govt has so much control over business anyway it shoudl be easy to keep them honest. If you wanted to anyway.

I just want to note that we're assuming that illegals just run over the border. Many come here legally and overstay.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by shecky


This is exactly the kind of psychosis Americans have about illegal immigration. Nobody complains when they want cheap labor to staff the car washes, bus tables, clean construction sites, pick crops, mow lawns, etc.

In other words, there are plenty jobs here almost specifically for illegal immigrants. And nobody really wants to eliminate that cheap labor pool. Pointing the finger ultimately points back in your own direction. Americans vote with their dollars to look the other way regarding illegal immigration.

Perhaps Americans should count their blessings and be glad they're not considering a clandestine breach across the border into Mexico to find work.

Nobody complains? I complain! I'd rather pay more to a citizen or legal immigrant than less to an illegal alien.

Many, maybe even most, do look the other way, but I"M not one of them.

If no legal employment can be found for the occupations you cited (and that's a BIG "if" - juveniles and part-timers fill many of those job vacancies), then the level of wages increase until willing applicants are found.

[shecky]

If no legal employment can be found for the occupations you cited (and that's a BIG "if" - juveniles and part-timers fill many of those job vacancies), then the level of wages increase until willing applicants are found.

If you need to fill a unskilled position with with someone reliable, who would you consider? A 16 year old living with mom spending most of his time trying to score some booze, or someone who actually needs a job, with a family to support?

Nobody complains? I complain! I'd rather pay more to a citizen or legal immigrant than less to an illegal alien.

Sure, and Americans would rather shop at the small old downtown businesses than at Walmart.

I'm sure you do complain. LOTS of Americans do. I'd bet they complain louder about paying higher prices for menial work. In the end, Dollars speak louder than all whining.

They are earning that pay illegally!! No legal status, no minimum wage, no social security card, no W-2, no OSHA, no pension, no 401-K.

The employer(s) should be prosecuted and sentence within the confines of the law.

Now that's the way to spur small business!

I've heard some conservatives bemoan the "no minimum wage, no social security card, no W-2, no OSHA, no pension" status of undocumented workers in the past. Yet when a citizen starts speaking out about such issues, they get branded as a socialist. Since when did they become advocates of minimum wages, taxes, OSHA, etc?

[kittynh]

Trust me, big business loves illegals. You can't go to a hotel in a big city and not find lots of illegals running things. Caused a heck of a rumpus when the airports had to get rid of all their illegals. I think it's bad because these people are taken advantage of by their employers, and do hold down any chance of the minimum wage being raised. NPR recently had what percentge of the Mexican economy was being supported by money sent from the states (legal and other). I dont remember the exact number, but Mexico would pretty much collapse if this money flow stopped.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak

I never said illegal aliens were "violent" or "horrible", just criminals who cheat, rob, and take advantage of a system they do not belong to.

Yeah, next thing you know they'll get wacky ideas like "America is the place to go for a better life."

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by shecky
If you need to fill a unskilled position with with someone reliable, who would you consider? A 16 year old living with mom spending most of his time trying to score some booze, or someone who actually needs a job, with a family to support?


Nicely loaded question. I'll answer it as soon as you tell me when you're going to stop beating your spouse!



Originally posted by shecky
I've heard some conservatives bemoan the "no minimum wage, no social security card, no W-2, no OSHA, no pension" status of undocumented workers in the past. Yet when a citizen starts speaking out about such issues, they get branded as a socialist. Since when did they become advocates of minimum wages, taxes, OSHA, etc?


Instead of side-tracking to the topic of conservative advocacy of the protections and benefits of legal employment, why not address the legitimacy of the claim that illegal aliens working illegally inside the U.S. receive none of these protections or benefits??

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon


Yeah, next thing you know they'll get wacky ideas like "America is the place to go for a better life."

Yeah? Would you rather have it be "Don't come in and be one of us. Sneak in and take advantage of us instead."

What right do illegal aliens have to reap the benefits, but suffer none of the responsibilities, costs, or sacrifices?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Yeah? Would you rather have it be "Don't come in and be one of us. Sneak in and take advantage of us instead."

What right do illegal aliens have to reap the benefits, but suffer none of the responsibilities, costs, or sacrifices?

You're absolutely right. They don't work, they don't pay taxes, all they do is come here and take money. They don't contribute anything, they don't live and work like everybody else. And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon


You're absolutely right. They don't work, they don't pay taxes, all they do is come here and take money. They don't contribute anything, they don't live and work like everybody else. And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

BullSh!+...

I never said they didn't work for the money they receive.

Working in the U.S. illegally and living in the U.S. illegally is ALL they do...

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak
I never said they didn't work for the money they receive.


No, you said they reap all the benefits but don't share any of the costs or responsibilities. That is pure, 100%, Grade-A BS.


Working in the U.S. illegally and living in the U.S. illegally is ALL they do...

And is (legally) working and living in the US all you do?

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon
No, you said they reap all the benefits but don't share any of the costs or responsibilities. That is pure, 100%, Grade-A BS.

Evidence that illegal aliens suffer the same costs and responsibilities as citizens and legal immigrants, please...



Originally posted by Cleon
And is (legally) working and living in the US all you do?

No, but like you said "I'm legal". :p :p


Care to answer my original question:

"What right do illegal aliens have to reap the benefits, but suffer none of the responsibilities, costs, or sacrifices?"

[Tmy]

Kody,

ARe you saying that illegals all work under the table and dont pay taxes? Cause thats not true.

And I dont think that all the teens could replacethis job. First off there are in school mostofthe time, then theres the strict labor laws for them, then theres a large group of teens who dont work or dont need to work (spolied brats!).

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Evidence that illegal aliens suffer the same costs and responsibilities as citizens and legal immigrants, please...



Gladly.

Costs: Housing, food, transportation, taxes. No way to get around them, really. I'd love to be able to do without them myself, but it's not really an option.

Primary responsibilities: Pay taxes, take care of yourself and/or your family, stay out of trouble. (You could add other things like "drive insured" and "feed your dog," but they vary from place to place and individual to individual.) "Illegals" pay taxes, and (I would think this is obvious) try to take care of themselves and their families and stay out of trouble.

Those that work under the table make far less than minimum wage, and in an economy where even minimum wage isn't exactly subistence-level income, one could argue that they make MORE sacrifices then the "legal" immigrant or citizen. In fact, I'd be happy to make that case.


No, but like you said "I'm legal". :p :p


So explain to me how it is that something about being "illegal" means that all you do is live and work illegally, and how "legal" people do more than live and work?

"Living and working" isn't "ALL" anyone does.


Care to answer my original question:

"What right do illegal aliens have to reap the benefits, but suffer none of the responsibilities, costs, or sacrifices?"

Considering that "illegal" immigrants do share the responsibilities, costs, and sacrifices, your "original question" is meaningless BS.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tmy
Kody,

ARe you saying that illegals all work under the table and dont pay taxes?

Income and Property taxes, yes. Unless the illegal alien or their employer have falsified forms and documents to avoid deportation. If you or anyone can informed me differently, I'd be more than willing to revise my position.

I know they pay gas, cigarette, and sales taxes.

Originally posted by Tmy
And I dont think that all the teens could replacethis job. First off there are in school mostofthe time, then theres the strict labor laws for them, then theres a large group of teens who dont work or dont need to work (spolied brats!).

I said juveniles and part-timers (moms, retirees, the mentally and physically disabled, etc...) and I didn't say "all".

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Cleon
Gladly.

Costs: Housing, food, transportation, taxes. No way to get around them, really. I'd love to be able to do without them myself, but it's not really an option.

Primary responsibilities: Pay taxes, take care of yourself and/or your family, stay out of trouble. (You could add other things like "drive insured" and "feed your dog," but they vary from place to place and individual to individual.) "Illegals" pay taxes, and (I would think this is obvious) try to take care of themselves and their families and stay out of trouble.

Those that work under the table make far less than minimum wage, and in an economy where even minimum wage isn't exactly subistence-level income, one could argue that they make MORE sacrifices then the "legal" immigrant or citizen. In fact, I'd be happy to make that case.

What a joke! Shelter and food? Care for family and avoid arrest?

:rolleyes:

Do they vote?

Do they serve jury duty?

Are they eligible for the draft?

Do they pay into social security?

Do they pay into Medicare?

Are they be bonded and insured?

Are their cars registered and insured?

Do they purchase firearms?

Do they pay income taxes?

Do they pay property taxes?

And again, I mean legally, as a citizen or legal immigrant could.


Originally posted by Cleon
So explain to me how it is that something about being "illegal" means that all you do is live and work illegally, and how "legal" people do more than live and work?

"Living and working" isn't "ALL" anyone does.

When your very presence is illegal, it doesn't matter what you do. Whatever it is, its illegal.




Again, what right do illegal aliens have to work and live in this country??

[Tmy]

Lots of illegals make up SS#'s or they may have been legally working till their status ran out. THey still pay income tax. THeres no buzzer that goes off in Human Resources when a person becomes illgeal or uses a bogus SS#.

Whos ever gotten a paycheck without income tax withheld??? (OK if youlive in a state wh/o income tax)

[shecky]

Originally posted by Kodiak



Nicely loaded question. I'll answer it as soon as you tell me when you're going to stop beating your spouse!


Loaded, maybe. But could you answer? Who would be a better prospective employee?

Originally posted by Kodiak

Instead of side-tracking to the topic of conservative advocacy of the protections and benefits of legal employment, why not address the legitimacy of the claim that illegal aliens working illegally inside the U.S. receive none of these protections or benefits??

That it doesn't bother employers of said workers, nor customers who reap benefits of their cheap labor is a issue.

Still, it is disingeuous for conservatives I hear attempt to neuter every worker protection law and program, and then hold such protections up as example why it's inhumane to employ illegal immigrants under such conditions.

There are plenty of citizens working without those protections, either. Where do they belong?

[The idea]

This is the same reason that the US is having trouble in Iraq. An American soldier's shift ends and the soldier goes off to wash cars, bus tables, clean construction sites, pick crops, and mow lawns. Iraqis see their jobs being taken away. They ask, "Are these soldiers legal immigrants? Where are their immigration documents? Are they spending all of their earnings in Iraq or are they planning to take the money home to America?"

[shecky]

Originally posted by Kodiak

Do they vote?
Do they serve jury duty?
Are they eligible for the draft?
Do they pay into social security?
Do they pay into Medicare?
Are they be bonded and insured?
Are their cars registered and insured?
Do they purchase firearms?
Do they pay income taxes?
Do they pay property taxes?

And again, I mean legally, as a citizen or legal immigrant could.


C'mon. Who cares if they vote or serve jury duty? A awful lot of citizens with the right avoid either. Same with taxes, SS, insurance, etc. Hard to hold illegal immigrants to such standards when it's difficult enough to hold actual citizens to them.

Interestingly, the issue with cars was a hot button helping the terminator get into office. Encouraging illegal behavior among illegal immigrants.

The fact is that most are here doing a service to the overall economy. Because the overall economy wants them. You don't have top like it. But it's fact.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kodiak


What a joke! Shelter and food? Care for family and avoid arrest?


Pretty important responsibilities, IMHO.


Do they vote?

Do they serve jury duty?

Are they eligible for the draft?


No, but then, "legal" immigrants don't either.


Do they pay into social security?

Do they pay into Medicare?


If they pay taxes, yes. More often than not, they do.


Are they be bonded and insured?

Are their cars registered and insured?


Depending on the state, yes.


Do they purchase firearms?


Erm...They can. Is this a "responsibility," "cost," or "sacrifice?" Because--while I'm not pro-gun-control--I don't happen to own a gun, myself.


Do they pay income taxes?


Yes.


Do they pay property taxes?


Well, if they own property to pay it on...And I suppose you could argue that those who rent pay it indirectly. In Georgia, we have a property tax on vehicles (called "ad valorem"--I figure this is Latin for "we don't use lube"). You can't register your car without paying it.


And again, I mean legally, as a citizen or legal immigrant could.


Way to move the goalposts. You want "illegal" immigrants to "share in the costs, responsibilities, etc." but if they try to, you just come back and say:


When your very presence is illegal, it doesn't matter what you do. Whatever it is, its illegal.


So it doesn't matter to you if they "share in the costs, responsiblities, and sacrifices" or not, because if they're not "legal," they're not doing it "legally," so they're not actually "sharing in the costs," and it all becomes a great exercise in rhetorical masturbation. I guess they're just doing a good impression of "sharing the costs, responsiblities, and sacrifices." Whether the SSN their employer uses is valid or not, they still don't get the money that gets withheld for Uncle Sam.


Again, what right do illegal aliens have to work and live in this country??

The same right that you and I have. No human being is illegal, and treating people who simply want to live and work like criminals is a crime in itself.

[Tmy]

There are so many misconceptions about illegals. Just read this thread.

For the record:

They dont all get in by running across the border. Most illegals ( non southwest areas) enter legally, then become illegal after overstaying their visas (sealing the borders will not stop this.

They dont all work under the table. If they are getting a payroll check then they are getting taxes taken out. Otherwise we'd all tell our employers we have no SS#'s and no taxes would be taken out.

Property taxes ect.... When was the last time you paid a taxed and was first asked to prove your citizenship??? When you buy a home or car or whatever, are you asked to prove citizenship??? 401k's, or checking accounts. NO. Illegals are buying and paying the same things.

Just cause they are illegal doesnt mean everthing they do is illegal.