how to a pro-gay marriage conservative

[corplinx]

This is for you, Mr. "we have to protect the pillars of civlization". You know who you are.

A. We don't have to protect pillars of civilization. For instance, think about trying to pass a law that mandates hard work and punishes laziness.

B. America was founded by Christians who setup the constitution to prevent religious law from being implemented by any particular sect. In other words, if a religious sect decides to marry gay people and the government recognizes marriage as a form of legal union, then it is possibly a violation of equal protection and perhaps religious persecution to deny gays married by certified religious leaders legal status.

C. The biggest cluster-fsck is that government actually marries people. This is kruft. This needs to be gone. If you believe that marriage is religious in nature, then why do you want secular government to be able to do it? San Franciso has it right, a legal union should have Applicant 1 and Applicant 2 and not bride and groom. And yes, it should be a legal/civil union or whatever.

Now, you can still believe that homosexuality and that homosexual marriage is wrong and still reconcile your religious stance with your stance as a strict constructionist.

[corplinx]

Mr. Moderator, mysql stinks. Please delete one copy of this thread and load postgresql asap. :)

[hammegk]

You might also request that a mod change the thread title to something with a bit of meaning. What were you trying to say? :p

"how to a pro-gay marriage" ??????

[corplinx]

Originally posted by hammegk
You might also request that a mod change the thread title to something with a bit of meaning. What were you trying to say? :p

"how to a pro-gay marriage" ??????

Hamm, you can be a strict constructionist, believe gay marriage is immoral, and support the right of gay religious unions to be recognized as legal unions.

The true test of freedom is supporting freedom even when what it allows is offensive to you.

If you want to be a bigot, you have the freedom be one even though I find bigotry offensive for instance.

[Zero]

Originally posted by corplinx


Hamm, you can be a strict constructionist, believe gay marriage is immoral, and support the right of gay religious unions to be recognized as legal unions.

The true test of freedom is supporting freedom even when what it allows is offensive to you.

If you want to be a bigot, you have the freedom be one even though I find bigotry offensive for instance. You and George Will, apparently...

[Silicon]

Gay marriage not just for the left:
Some conservatives give their support

http://reviewappeal.midsouthnews.com/news.ez?viewStory=19008


"The conservative course is not to banish gay people from making such commitments. It is to expect that they make such commitments," David Brooks wrote recently in The New York Times, praising the virtues of fidelity. "We shouldn't just allow gay marriage. We should insist on gay marriage."

[jj]

Originally posted by corplinx
B. America was founded by Christians who setup the constitution to prevent religious law from being implemented by any particular sect.

America was founded by a group of people, including Christians, who were enthusiastic about the principles of the enlightenment, and as such, were rather secular in behavior. Certainly some of the sales pitch for the constitution as it was written and originally amended comes from what you say, some also comes from the desire to allow freedom from religion.

Some founders were not even Deists. Some were non-Christian deist. Some were Christian.

[Silicon]

Just to be a curmudgeon...


America was founded on tobacco, rum and slavery.



That's what I always like to say to people who say "America was founded on religious values." or religious freedom, or whatever other reason they pull from the imaginary past to apply to a real problem in the present.

As if those in the past were not only wise, but were prescient of the solutions to all our modern woes, if only we could better follow their ancient wisdom.

Tobacco, rum and slavery. Those were the real foundations of America.

Not that the founding fathers didn't have good ideas. The Bill of Rights is a whopper. But only as it exists today. The Modern Bill of Rights, as it is interpreted by a modern judiciary. I wouldn't really care for the founders' version of the Bill of Rights, which would be the Bill of the Rights of Property-Holding White Men.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Silicon
Gay marriage not just for the left:
Some conservatives give their support

http://reviewappeal.midsouthnews.com/news.ez?viewStory=19008



"The conservative course is not to banish gay people from making such commitments. It is to expect that they make such commitments," David Brooks wrote recently in The New York Times, praising the virtues of fidelity. "We shouldn't just allow gay marriage. We should insist on gay marriage."emphasis mine


I find it amusing that at least this pro-gay-marriage conservative still doesn't get it. Fidelity and marriage of any couple are not the business of the govt.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Silicon
Tobacco, rum and slavery. Those were the real foundations of America.


Don't forget freemasonry!

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Silicon
Just to be a curmudgeon...


America was founded on tobacco, rum and slavery.



That's what I always like to say to people who say "America was founded on religious values." or religious freedom, or whatever other reason they pull from the imaginary past to apply to a real problem in the present.

As if those in the past were not only wise, but were prescient of the solutions to all our modern woes, if only we could better follow their ancient wisdom.

Tobacco, rum and slavery. Those were the real foundations of America.

Not that the founding fathers didn't have good ideas. The Bill of Rights is a whopper. But only as it exists today. The Modern Bill of Rights, as it is interpreted by a modern judiciary. I wouldn't really care for the founders' version of the Bill of Rights, which would be the Bill of the Rights of Property-Holding White Men.

You left out the right to make whiskey!

The only reason Madison wanted to stop the slave trade was because then the slave surplus in Virginia would be worth more money!

Making whiskey!
The people in kentucky went west after the feds tried to tax whiskey.

Rum, tobbaco, slaves and making whiskey, not to mention cheating the natives!

[Dancing David]

There are more kinds of conservatives , huh?

Funny y'all look the same to me!

The federal deficit makes me want to be a conservative real bad, is there room for free thinkers?

[Silicon]

Something I hadn't thought of in the Conservative reasons for being pro-gay-marriage.

Today on NPR's Day to Day they had the lawyer from the Coalition for California Families or whatever the group is called that is sueing to stop this. You know what he said? He said that California had a legitimate public health interest to STOP gay marriage, because sodomy is a public health problem!

W.... T..... F.....?!!!

NPR let him get away with saying that, with no rebuttal!


SODOMY is a public health problem? You mean straight people don't have and spred AIDS? Straight people don't have and spread tons of different STD's, some which scar children for life?

This guy had it all backwards.

What could be BETTER to slow the spread of AIDS in the gay community than MONOGOMY?

In fact, I can't think of a better argument to make to a conservative than that. Gay marriage encourages gay monogomy.

The exact opposite of the complete medical falsehood he was spewing on the radio.

I hope he makes that argument in front of a judge. I want to hear the howls from the courtroom.




edit:

The group is called the Campaign for California Families.
http://www.savecalifornia.com/


Not THIS California family.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon


Today on NPR's Day to Day they had the lawyer from the Coalition for California Families or whatever the group is called that is sueing to stop this. You know what he said? He said that California had a legitimate public health interest to STOP gay marriage, because sodomy is a public health problem!





:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Silicon
Something I hadn't thought of in the Conservative reasons for being pro-gay-marriage.

Today on NPR's Day to Day they had the lawyer from the Coalition for California Families or whatever the group is called that is sueing to stop this. You know what he said? He said that California had a legitimate public health interest to STOP gay marriage, because sodomy is a public health problem!

:con2:

Never could quite grasp "family values movement" logic. I guess the theory is that if gays can't get married, they won't have sex, and if they don't have sex, nobody will get AIDS or anything.

Normally I'd ask if this guy was on crack, but even crackheads have more reasoning capacity than that.

[Ælfgifu]

Tobacco, rum and slavery. Those were the real foundations of America. Don't forget the right to not have to pay taxes. :)

Have a nice day,
Kelly :)

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Cleon


:con2:

Never could quite grasp "family values movement" logic. I guess the theory is that if gays can't get married, they won't have sex, and if they don't have sex, nobody will get AIDS or anything.


This is the part that is really confusing me. Is he seriously suggesting that if they prohibit marriage, that gay people won't have sex? That's just too funny.

Yep, those good old gay people are going to save themselves for marriage.

Man, what an idiot.

[Silicon]

Here's the reasoning of the family values crew:

If we legalize gay marriage, that condones gayness.

Therefore straight people, including young people, will suddenly decide to be gay, since it's now legal.

Bingo, lotsa sodomy.


Because, COME ON, who wouldn't WANT to be gay, given the choice? Have you seen how cool those gay guys dress?




I usually feel that the people most against gays are closeted freaks ashamed of themselves.

Look at this picture of the head of the "Campaign for California Families." Look at his beard. There's no WAY this guy's straight!

http://www.savecalifornia.com/_content/home/home_perspective.gif



One of the most anti-gay, family values Christians I ever knew was a lisping, mincing guy who made Harvey Firestien look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was like, "Come ON, who do you think YOU'RE fooling?"

[Kodiak]

This conservative's $.02:

If gays or lesbians want to get married, or "unioned", why not?

How does their choice have anything to do with us?

If some religious sect or another wants to perform the ceremony, who cares?

What's the difference to the State (big "S" meaning the federal gov't) if the participants are of the opposite or same sex?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by jj


America was founded by a group of people, including Christians, who were enthusiastic about the principles of the enlightenment, and as such, were rather secular in behavior. I found this quote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewash129971.html) the other day:The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
George Washington

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I found this quote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewash129971.html) the other day:

Any idea as to the context?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Dragonrock


Any idea as to the context?

IIRC, it was in a treaty with with Barbary states; Washington was trying to convey the message to the Muslims (or "Musselmen") that the US wasn't religiously committed to wiping out Islam.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I found this quote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewash129971.html) the other day:

Put on the brakes hoss. Noone in this thread said that the country was founded on christianity. I merely made mention that it was founded by christians who didn't want sectarian law being imposed on them by other sects (which is true with exceptions which of course some nits had to mention). Noone in this thread has made the claim that you and others in this thread are refuting.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Dragonrock


Any idea as to the context?

Found it!

http://secular.embassyofheaven.com/usa/tripoli.htm

Article 11:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I found this quote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewash129971.html) the other day: Wow here's another relevent one by good old George:As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.

[hammegk]

corplinx
Noone in this thread has made the claim that you and others in this thread are refuting.

But of course. What else can one refute other than what one is aware of?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by corplinx

Put on the brakes hoss. Relax. I wasn't trying to make a specific point. I just found the quote and thought it interesting. I didn't know the context (Thanks, Cleon) and didn't mean to draw the thread onto a tangent.

Just a novelty in my eyes, that was all.

edited to add:
Thank god I didn't make this joke:
Originally posted by Silicon
Tobacco, rum and slavery.Of course, today it's lawyers, guns, and money (http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/lawyersg.htm).

[Tony]

Yet another good quote from George:

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.