21st and 26th in science and math

[Bishadi]

Per Obama, the US ranking of the school children shares what has happened to our educational system.

Kind of sad ain't it?

How to inspire the teachers? Was the question to Obama and he said there is no greater importance than teaching the children.

I agree

but to read some of the ranting by members on this forum, which is supposedly an Ed based venue, I can see why.

I know the Randi shares care but often people have learned how to discount material information and the new evolutions of observing evidence rather than actually care about the progression of our future

why is it that "we the people" have become so selfish?

Ie... How is it that Our teachers are paid so little and the kids are learning at such a reduced pace than the rest of the world?

[Bishadi]

P/s.... I am in Newton Iowa, the show was on Nbc called education nation.

(just in case any wanted to do the reference check)

[sol invictus]

How to inspire the teachers? Was the question to Obama and he said there is no greater importance than teaching the children.

I agree

but to read some of the ranting by members on this forum, which is supposedly an Ed based venue, I can see why.

Why what?

And why are you posting this here rather than in the education subforum?

[casebro]

So which countries were higher rated?

I did a small analysis in the thread about which country is best to live in, where the U.S. was #10. We may have been @# 10, but we were in the 97th percentile, ant the total population of the nine countries that beat us was 2/3 of the U.S. pop. I think that makes us within one standard deviation, no?

And we are the "Engineering School of the World", at the other end of the educational scale.

I suspect that if the average quality of our secondary education is dropping, it is because we no longer kick the devolutes out. The stupid and un-ambitious students are pulling down the averages. Did the other countries report on the students that were sent to out of the usual track, drop outs or trade schools?

[Ladewig]

I know the Randi shares care but often people have learned how to discount material information and the new evolutions of observing evidence rather than actually care about the progression of our future

Are "Randi shares" people who post on this board? If so, then I may I see the evidence that JREFers are more concerned with "discounting material information" than "caring about the progression of our future"? Furthermore, I personally consider emphasis on caring about our future to be somewhat useless. I could collect 200,000,000 citizens who care about the progression of our future and without accurate measurements of where we are and where we want to go, all the caring in the world will not help us take even a single step.

As for comparing the U.S. educational system to those in other countries, it is important to note that there is not a U.S. educational system - there are fifty diverse state educational systems.

[Bishadi]

The president made a claim as I watched it this am.

He shared the importance and even that increasing funding for teachers as a governing solution but why am I being attacked for pointing out what is in the news about our childrens ranking in math and science within the data He apparently is observing?

Why don't people just post there feelings and intentions that they really don't give a hoot? At least then I could have respect for honesty.

[Foster Zygote]

Why don't people just post there feelings and intentions that they really don't give a hoot?

Are you stating that you started this thread with the assumption that the people responding would not care about the state of education? Not only have many people on this forum benefited from good education, but quite a few on this forum are educators. Why, assuming that you haven't miscommunicated your intent, would you make such an assumption?

ETA: In the three posts responding to your OP, would you be so kind as to point out a single attack against you?

[MetalPig]

How to inspire the teachers? Was the question to Obama and he said there is no greater importance than teaching the children.
If that were true, teaching the children would be the highest paying job in the country.

[jasonpatterson]

I'm not sure that teachers need inspiring, honestly. Most of the attempts that I've seen to inspire me to great new heights of teacherosity have been hit and run silliness from people who don't teach. They've been fantastic wastes of resources as well, from what I can see.

There are some poor teachers, and there are some excellent teachers, and there are a great many average teachers in the middle. The idea that teachers are woefully undereducated to teach their subjects, or that they just don't care about their jobs again may apply to some few teachers, but the majority enjoy teaching, want their students to learn, and know what they're doing.

If people started claiming that we needed to inspire doctors because the US is getting fat, we'd call them nuts, because we know that ultimately the responsibility for maintaining a healthy weight falls on the patient, with the help of others. Why is the same view not used with students, with the responsibility to learn being placed on their shoulders, with educational systems in place to assist them? I realize that there is a difference in the time invested, but when I've had 5 students in a class of 30 receiving work in jail, I find it difficult to accept much of the credit for their poor test scores.

Inspiring students to learn might work, but (generally speaking of course) it has to start when they're young. Taking a group of tough, inner city kids, and convincing them to love Shakespeare or calculus might make for a good sappy movie, but the simple truth is that it doesn't work on a large scale.

I'd love to know whether my 5 kids in jail, who were legally required to take the state mandated tests, along with all but 0.5% of the student population (including severely mentally handicapped children) would have been included in the numbers for Japan or the UK or Switzerland...

[drkitten]

If people started claiming that we needed to inspire doctors because the US is getting fat, we'd call them nuts, because we know that ultimately the responsibility for maintaining a healthy weight falls on the patient, with the help of others. Why is the same view not used with students, with the responsibility to learn being placed on their shoulders, with educational systems in place to assist them?

Because students tend to be children, and we recognize that children are almost by definition incapable of taking responsibility for themselves. That's why the campaigns against child obesity are directed at the parents ("Parents -- make your children put that damn Xbox down and go run around outside!"), because we generally accept that parents are responsible for the health of their children.

Who's responsible for the intellectual health of students?

The problem is that there's a lot of parents -- and of the general public -- who believe that teachers are responsible for the intellectual health of the students they see for thirty-odd hours a week. These same people tend to believe that parents are not responsible, even though they see the kids for 130+ hours a week and more during the summers.

This is of course a recipe for disaster.

[drkitten]

If that were true, teaching the children would be the highest paying job in the country.

Doesn't follow. I believe the highest-paying job in the country is actually "film star" or perhaps "starting quarterback"; no one, even the film stars or quarterbacks, would believe that their job is the most important.

It's just that there are more people who can be trauma surgeons (which we all accept as important) than there are who can be starting quarterbacks.

[jasonpatterson]

Indeed drkitten, I teach older students, (16-18 year olds) and tend to forget the other 3/4ths of the student population. :)

[Bishadi]

So which countries were higher rated?
send an email to Barak and ask him

I suspect that if the average quality of our secondary education is dropping, it is because we no longer kick the devolutes out. . That Is kind of how I feel. If a science professor spends such a long period of time learning and still cannot convey how life works, fire 'em. The stupid and un-ambitious students are pulling down the averages. kind of like why many of the folks of the educational community can't work in the general fields so they teach kids that don't know any better. as far as I am concerned if the kids do not exceed the instructors over the same period of time as they spent to obtain their credentials then the system is failingDid the other countries report on the students that were sent to out of the usual track, drop outs or trade schools?
don't know

[Bishadi]

Doesn't follow. I believe the highest-paying job in the country is actually "film star" or perhaps "starting quarterback"; no one, even the film stars or quarterbacks, would believe that their job is the most important.

It's just that there are more people who can be trauma surgeons (which we all accept as important) than there are who can be starting quarterbacks.

I like the thinking minds. One of the best posts I have read on this forum.

This will be my first post to nominate (I have not hit that button yet but this one deserves it)

cudos

[MetalPig]

Doesn't follow. I believe the highest-paying job in the country is actually "film star" or perhaps "starting quarterback"; no one, even the film stars or quarterbacks, would believe that their job is the most important.

It's just that there are more people who can be trauma surgeons (which we all accept as important) than there are who can be starting quarterbacks.

You are right, of course.

But I still think it's strange that the important jobs get so little pay. Sure, anyone can teach the kids, but if the job doesn't pay, no one wants to.

[Zep]

I like the thinking minds. One of the best posts I have read on this forum.

This will be my first post to nominate (I have not hit that button yet but this one deserves it)

cudosGiven the thread title you gave it, this is ironic.:rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

I'm not sure that teachers need inspiring, honestly. Most of the attempts that I've seen to inspire me to great new heights of teacherosity have been hit and run silliness from people who don't teach. They've been fantastic wastes of resources as well, from what I can see.

There are some poor teachers, and there are some excellent teachers, and there are a great many average teachers in the middle. The idea that teachers are woefully undereducated to teach their subjects, or that they just don't care about their jobs again may apply to some few teachers, but the majority enjoy teaching, want their students to learn, and know what they're doing.

If people started claiming that we needed to inspire doctors because the US is getting fat, we'd call them nuts, because we know that ultimately the responsibility for maintaining a healthy weight falls on the patient, with the help of others. Why is the same view not used with students, with the responsibility to learn being placed on their shoulders, with educational systems in place to assist them? I realize that there is a difference in the time invested, but when I've had 5 students in a class of 30 receiving work in jail, I find it difficult to accept much of the credit for their poor test scores.

Inspiring students to learn might work, but (generally speaking of course) it has to start when they're young. Taking a group of tough, inner city kids, and convincing them to love Shakespeare or calculus might make for a good sappy movie, but the simple truth is that it doesn't work on a large scale.

I'd love to know whether my 5 kids in jail, who were legally required to take the state mandated tests, along with all but 0.5% of the student population (including severely mentally handicapped children) would have been included in the numbers for Japan or the UK or Switzerland...

Yes, but in addition to all of that I think the most important issue is the supply of quality teachers. The science of teacher-training is in its infancy. We're just beginning to identify the qualities that actually make an effective teacher, and we don't yet know whether they are even teachable at all, much less how to go about teaching these qualities to aspiring young teachers.

Even if/when we do figure out how to reliably produce effective teachers it will be a monumental (and expensive!) task to actually do the job of training--and maintaining over time--a workforce of several million teachers--especially given the wide variety of skill sets needed across all the subjects and grade-levels, and logistics of getting the teachers produced by our training colleges to actually live and work in the areas where they are needed.

The people who think this can be addressed by "inspiring teachers" or "holding them accountable" simply don't know what they're talking about.

[Bishadi]

Are "Randi shares" people who post on this board? . The forum name "shares" what I meant If so, then I may I see the evidence that JREFers are more concerned with "discounting material information" than "caring about the progression of our future"? tooooooo many trolls having fun just ranting Furthermore, I personally consider emphasis on caring about our future to be somewhat useless.. Then by choice you are worthless to mankind. I bold your quote for "evidence".I could collect 200,000,000 citizens who care about the progression of our future and without accurate measurements of where we are and where we want to go, all the caring in the world will not help us take even a single step. personal responsibility can make all the difference (no one has a right to lie/mislead). Ie.... How many friends do you retain that lie to you?As for comparing the U.S. educational system to those in other countries, it is important to note that there is not a U.S. educational system - there are fifty diverse state educational systems.maybe that is why an AIMS test is the fed standard to measure with

for far too long many have allowed creationists to impose beliefs of a miraculous creation to be taught to the children while science is still incapable of rendering an evolution via math with chemistry into the physiological application

[Zep]

. The forum name "shares" what I meantRight on, man! :cool:

tooooooo many trolls having fun just ranting.I can dig it.

Then by choice you are worthless to mankind. I bold your quote for "evidence".That's a big call, dude. Righteous!

personal responsibility can make all the difference (no one has a right to lie/mislead). Ie.... How many friends do you retain that lie to you?Aww, man! Don't go harshing the cool vibe!

maybe that is why an AIMS test is the fed standard to measure withNever heard of it, dude. We don't do "American" here.

for far too long many have allowed creationists to impose beliefs of a miraculous creation to be taught to the children while science is still incapable of rendering an evolution via math with chemistry into the physiological applicationDeep.

[Prometheus]

...maybe that is why an AIMS test is the fed standard to measure with...

No it isn't.

[SezMe]

Doesn't follow. I believe the highest-paying job in the country is actually "film star" or perhaps "starting quarterback"; no one, even the film stars or quarterbacks, would believe that their job is the most important.
Hedge fund managers. Does anybody else take down a billion dollars?

[ZirconBlue]

So, is education in the US getting worse? Or are other countries just getting better faster than we are?

[case#46cw39]

The bottom line is the super power isn't super. Needs fixing or the US is over as the super economy in the future. Reason: Most new jobs in the 21st century will come from and be in high tech, science and engineering. To put it poetically, the Rat Race has become the Brain Race.

[ZirconBlue]

Needs fixing or the US is over as the super economy in the future.

I think the problem needs to be more clearly defined before we can even begin to "fix" it.

[Roboramma]

B
The problem is that there's a lot of parents -- and of the general public -- who believe that teachers are responsible for the intellectual health of the students they see for thirty-odd hours a week. These same people tend to believe that parents are not responsible, even though they see the kids for 130+ hours a week and more during the summers.

That's one of the things that the chinese seem to have going for them. Over here, parents are expected to spend several hours every day overseeing their kids as they do their homework, and they sign every page of homework for the teacher to see. They also push their kids (too hard in my opinion) such that a test score of 90% is usually recieved with "what happened to the other 10%?" and a "third highest grade in the class" is answered with "how did the other two do better than you?".

I don't really think the way things are done over here is something to be copied, but there's something to be said for parents taking responsibility for the education of their children and instilling a solid work ethic at a young age.

[ZirconBlue]

That's one of the things that the chinese seem to have going for them. Over here, parents are expected to spend several hours every day overseeing their kids as they do their homework, and they sign every page of homework for the teacher to see. They also push their kids (too hard in my opinion) such that a test score of 90% is usually recieved with "what happened to the other 10%?" and a "third highest grade in the class" is answered with "how did the other two do better than you?".

I don't really think the way things are done over here is something to be copied, but there's something to be said for parents taking responsibility for the education of their children and instilling a solid work ethic at a young age.

My daughter has had homework since 1st grade, and we have to sign for it every day. And, she's had elective classes since Kindergarten. Times certainly have changed since I was in school.

[Roboramma]

My daughter has had homework since 1st grade, and we have to sign for it every day. And, she's had elective classes since Kindergarten. Times certainly have changed since I was in school.

Yeah, maybe what I'm noticing isn't a difference between, for instance, the Canadian school system and the chinese, but a difference between the years 1985 and 2010... quite possible.

On the other hand some friends of mine just sent their son to kinderkarten and he's already got homework every day. He's also got full school days (not sure exact hours but I think its 9-4). I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but when I was a kid kindergarten was half days and we certainly never had homework.

I also recall doing very little homework, even in highschool. Sure, we had homework in 1st (or at least 2nd) grade, but it didn't really matter much. The parents I talk to here spend several hours/night with their kids helping them with their homework.

They also send them to tutoring on the weekends and after school, and several classes during the summer as well. I suppose I don't know how widespread that is here, or how widespread it is in north america, so perhaps i shouldn't be making the comparison.

[Prometheus]

I think the real problem in the U.S. is that science and math skills are not held in high regard by the public at large. Kids that are good at those subjects are derided by their peers, or worse. As a culture, we celebrate ignorance. Kids intuitively realize society wants them to be dumb, and so they comply.

[ZirconBlue]

On the other hand some friends of mine just sent their son to kinderkarten and he's already got homework every day. He's also got full school days (not sure exact hours but I think its 9-4). I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but when I was a kid kindergarten was half days and we certainly never had homework.

I also recall doing very little homework, even in highschool. Sure, we had homework in 1st (or at least 2nd) grade, but it didn't really matter much.

My experience was similar. Half days in Kindergarten, very little homework until Middle School. A lot of the stuff my daughter brings home for homework is sort of thing we would have done in in-class exercises when I was a kid. I guess that's how they have time for electives.

The parents I talk to here spend several hours/night with their kids helping them with their homework.

They also send them to tutoring on the weekends and after school, and several classes during the summer as well.

That seems excessive to me. But that may just be my Western upbringing. I think I'd get serious burnout if I had to do that much homework.

[Bishadi]

I think the real problem in the U.S. is that science and math skills are not held in high regard by the public at large i disagree. Any that contribute to the evolution of knowledge do in fact have that innert value. ie.... even if making a fine hamburger.


Kids that are good at those subjects are derided by their peers, or worse.

that's an understatement. Hence why each generation has its 'rebels' that are at one moment feared and the next loved (james dean/madonna etc....)

Eiinstein was shunned for almost 2 decades by an enormous margin within the community. Newton, Darwin, Jesus or even Muhammad and confucius all were non compliant because many are just idiots with ignorance.

As a culture, we celebrate ignorance. not so. The complacent are who are celebrated as then a feeling of equality enables the ignorant to sit on their hands.

Kids intuitively realize society wants them to be dumb, and so they comply.



Wrong.......

it aint the kids fault it is the rearing. ie.... 99.9999999% of all atheists that i know of were born into a religious frame and when the kids observe what hypocrits their parents are, then realize that aint a 'godlike' way of life.

meaning, they aint discounting god for doing the 'stupid' it is the people who adher are representing such non compliance.

i see the innert human life based on far more integrity and empathy and learn how to be idiots.

[JoeTheJuggler]

One thing I've often wondered about these educational rankings--do the countries that rank higher than the U.S. test as great a proportion of their population as the U.S.?

Similarly, I know a lot of private schools test much higher than public schools, but the private schools have the luxury of not having to admit every kid that lives in a district.

[ZirconBlue]

One thing I've often wondered about these educational rankings--do the countries that rank higher than the U.S. test as great a proportion of their population as the U.S.?

Similarly, I know a lot of private schools test much higher than public schools, but the private schools have the luxury of not having to admit every kid that lives in a district.

Well, maybe if the OP had linked to the source of the rankings we'd be able to determine that. . . .

[Loss Leader]

i know the randi shares care but often people have learned how to discount material information and the new evolutions of observing evidence rather than actually care about the progression of our future




Make Sense!

[LarianLeQuella]

Willful ignornace and anti-intellectualism are considered virtues by many in the US. No wonder we're slipping in education. It's not from a lack of educators trying, it's a lack of intellectual curiosity and honesty. Besides, too many people can't tell the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And then the non-sensical ramblings of some posters really makes me wonder as to what level of education they may have been exposed to. Not that I am going to name any names! ;)

[Prometheus]

Willful ignornace and anti-intellectualism are considered virtues by many in the US. No wonder we're slipping in education. It's not from a lack of educators trying, it's a lack of intellectual curiosity and honesty. Besides, too many people can't tell the difference between an opinion and a fact.

And then the non-sensical ramblings of some posters really makes me wonder as to what level of education they may have been exposed to. Not that I am going to name any names! ;)

In some ways, I think humanity has become a victim of its own brilliance. Think about it: It used to be that if you were a complete idiot, you could never get anything done. Then along come a few generations of brilliant engineers creating all sorts of fool-proof gadgets and systems, and now even complete ignoramuses can do or build all kinds of stuff. Heck, the mayor of my city only has a 7th grade education!

As long as there are a few brilliant minds around to keep propping up the rest, education for the masses will continue to become more and more obsolete. :(

[Malerin]

Per Obama, the US ranking of the school children shares what has happened to our educational system.

Kind of sad ain't it?

Not really. We're mostly a service-oriented economy. My waitress at Denny's doesn't need a PhD nor does my mechanic.

It will be sad if our top-tier colleges start becoming second-rate. I haven't heard that's happening though. MIT and CalTech still routinely turn away 4.0 students.

[TriangleMan]

Well, maybe if the OP had linked to the source of the rankings we'd be able to determine that. . . .

I believe he is referring to the OECD's 2006 PISA test (http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_32252351_32236191_39718850_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml) but I think the ranking might be slightly different to what Obama said. (Possibly only OECD countries were considered?)

[ZirconBlue]

I believe he is referring to the OECD's 2006 PISA test (http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_32252351_32236191_39718850_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml)but I think the ranking might be slightly different to what Obama said. (Possibly only OECD countries were considered?)


Interesting read. Thank you.

[TriangleMan]

The 2009 test results should be out this December, it will be interesting to see how the US places.

[TriangleMan]

One thing I've often wondered about these educational rankings--do the countries that rank higher than the U.S. test as great a proportion of their population as the U.S.?

Similarly, I know a lot of private schools test much higher than public schools, but the private schools have the luxury of not having to admit every kid that lives in a district.

I think the PISA test does test both public and private schools. Here is an interesting tidbit from the 2006 science results (level 6 indicates the highest level of understanding of science concepts and how to apply them):

The number of students at Level 6 cannot be reliably predicted from a country’s overall performance. Korea was among the highest-performing countries on the PISA science scale, with an average of 522 score points, while the United States performed below the OECD average, with a score of 489. Nevertheless, the United States and Korea had similar percentages of students at Level 6.

It is possible that the above is due to the test being administered to a wide variety of US schools including high-achieving private schools.

[ZirconBlue]

It is possible that the above is due to the test being administered to a wide variety of US schools including high-achieving private schools.


That's funny. I had copied that exact text, intending to paste it into my reply above, then, for some reason decided not to.

[drkitten]

In some ways, I think humanity has become a victim of its own brilliance. Think about it: It used to be that if you were a complete idiot, you could never get anything done. Then along come a few generations of brilliant engineers creating all sorts of fool-proof gadgets and systems, and now even complete ignoramuses can do or build all kinds of stuff.

Well, most of the people who have looked at this come to just the opposite conclusion; part of the problem is that to actually get stuff done, you need to have ever more and more education.

Almost anyone can plant and harvest corn, or milk cows. But it takes skill to repair an automobile, and it takes a lot more skill now than it did even twenty years ago because the cars are so much more complex.

The problem is twofold. First, there are a lot more "complete idiots" competing for the jobs planting corn and milking cows; there are farmers in countries halfway across the world begging to be able to plant corn for rich Americans. But (secondly) the education gap is getting higher and harder to cross -- the difference between 7th grade education and 11th grade education opens a lot fewer doors than it did two generations ago.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the PISA test does test both public and private schools.

I think I wasn't clear. I was talking about comparing private vs. public schools within the U.S. as an analogy to comparing the U.S. vs. other nations. (Private schools can expel difficult students or even select higher achieving students, something public schools can't do. So comparing test scores of the two aren't very meaningful. I'm asking if something similar isn't going on in comparing U.S. test scores to those of other nations.)

If the test isn't testing the same proportion of the population (including kids with learning or developmental disabilities and so on), it's not a very accurate comparison.

I don't know if the U.S. does attempt to educate more of our population (and by extension whether this broader portion are included in the tests used to compare to other countries), which is why I'm asking.

[drkitten]

I think I wasn't clear. I was talking about comparing private vs. public schools within the U.S. as an analogy to comparing the U.S. vs. other nations. (Private schools can expel difficult students or even select higher achieving students, something public schools can't do. So comparing test scores of the two aren't very meaningful. I'm asking if something similar isn't going on in comparing U.S. test scores to those of other nations.)

As an example, the Dutch have a three-tiered public education system. Twelve-year olds are sorted into one of three types of "high school," VMBO, HAVO or VWO. (You can look up what the acronyms stand for; they're not meaningful to English-speakers.) VMBO is basically vocational training, what we in the States used to call "shop" class. HAVO is a prep school focused on polytechnical education, and only VWO is a full-on university prep course.

Perhaps obviously, the performance of the Netherlands on any exam like this would depend -- perhaps even be controlled by -- which group of students takes it. Sixty percent of students are in the VMBO program; If only the VWO students take a test, they're probably measuring the performance of the top quintile at most.

[fuelair]

Per Obama, the US ranking of the school children shares what has happened to our educational system.

Kind of sad ain't it?

How to inspire the teachers? Was the question to Obama and he said there is no greater importance than teaching the children.

I agree

but to read some of the ranting by members on this forum, which is supposedly an Ed based venue, I can see why.

I know the Randi shares care but often people have learned how to discount material information and the new evolutions of observing evidence rather than actually care about the progression of our future

why is it that "we the people" have become so selfish?

Ie... How is it that Our teachers are paid so little and the kids are learning at such a reduced pace than the rest of the world?

Oddly, this is the first of yours where I am certain it is primarily full on gibberish - unlike others where I thought there might be some semblance of vaguely linear speech/writing.
But to respond to the parts that still seem directed:A) many of us do value education and learning and are interested in advancing same. Where the advancement is based on clearly tested principles shown to work with multiple levels of learner in multiple settings and not dependant on a particular source of instruction or a particular observer/evaluator of that instruction. B) Most of us who have written on the matter are quite interested in where our future is headed and the proper direction to head it. None of this precludes Obama's comments or implies he knows the correct way to move forward nor that he doesn't.
Elucidate or defecate.:)

[Prometheus]

I think the PISA test does test both public and private schools. Here is an interesting tidbit from the 2006 science results (level 6 indicates the highest level of understanding of science concepts and how to apply them):



It is possible that the above is due to the test being administered to a wide variety of US schools including high-achieving private schools.

There's an earlier thread on the 2006 PISA test in which I posted a link I cannot now find about some of the problems with comparing countries using the PISA results. IIRC the fact that the U.S. tests a much wider distribution of students than any of the top-ranked countries was a big red flag.

[Travis]

I think there is a certain expectation in the US that even if the primary education system has flaws the University systems will make up for it. That might be part of the problem. Granted it's worked to a certain extent as US universities are still ranked as the best but this is not something I see as sustainable.

[Prometheus]

Well, most of the people who have looked at this come to just the opposite conclusion; part of the problem is that to actually get stuff done, you need to have ever more and more education.

Almost anyone can plant and harvest corn, or milk cows. But it takes skill to repair an automobile, and it takes a lot more skill now than it did even twenty years ago because the cars are so much more complex.

The problem is twofold. First, there are a lot more "complete idiots" competing for the jobs planting corn and milking cows; there are farmers in countries halfway across the world begging to be able to plant corn for rich Americans. But (secondly) the education gap is getting higher and harder to cross -- the difference between 7th grade education and 11th grade education opens a lot fewer doors than it did two generations ago.

I agree with all of that. I was using 'get stuff done' in the sense of 'have stuff done for you' to refer, not to the essential tasks performed by skilled laborers, but rather to the consumer activity of the general populace.

[TriangleMan]

I think I wasn't clear. I was talking about comparing private vs. public schools within the U.S. as an analogy to comparing the U.S. vs. other nations. (Private schools can expel difficult students or even select higher achieving students, something public schools can't do. So comparing test scores of the two aren't very meaningful. I'm asking if something similar isn't going on in comparing U.S. test scores to those of other nations.)

If the test isn't testing the same proportion of the population (including kids with learning or developmental disabilities and so on), it's not a very accurate comparison.


I think that is something that the US would have to choose to implement as part of the program, I'm not sure if the test itself does the comparison.

For example Canada decided to include all sorts of other metrics to the test in order to do other long-term studies (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/59/35/44574748.pdf) but that was something the country itself decided to do, it was not a requirement of the test nor did other countries do it (but other countries may have done other types of studies).

As for what Canada did:
In 2000, Canada launched the Youth in Transition Survey, a longitudinal component attached to PISA. Since then, the 30 000 Canadian students that participated in the 2000 PISA have been interviewed every two years. The measurement of individual competencies followed by a longitudinal survey can lead to significant new policy insights in understanding choices made at different ages, and the impact of these decisions on consequent education and labour market outcomes. The improved quality of antecedent data and the ability to better adjust for background factors improve analytical power. The Canadian example has demonstrated the value of PISA linked to a longitudinal follow-up and can be a model for other OECD countries that are contemplating a strategy to seek a better understanding of the social and economic impact of competencies acquired at school and to produce insights on the causal nature of these relationships.

[TriangleMan]

There's an earlier thread on the 2006 PISA test in which I posted a link I cannot now find about some of the problems with comparing countries using the PISA results. IIRC the fact that the U.S. tests a much wider distribution of students than any of the top-ranked countries was a big red flag.

I'm not going to argue that PISA is the perfect study, but with perhaps the exception of TIMMS there is no other study that tests in so many different countries, with large sample sizes, with a reasonable amount of statistical analysis. I agree that the media just jump on the absolute values or the ranking, but with some planning countries can make all sorts of statistical comparisons about students within their countries, income levels, public versus private etc. and hopefully not get so hung up on the country versus country comparisons. I am not sure what the US has done in terms of internal analysis. I assume there is a US government department that has more information.

[Prometheus]

I'm not going to argue that PISA is the perfect study, but with perhaps the exception of TIMMS there is no other study that tests in so many different countries, with large sample sizes, with a reasonable amount of statistical analysis. I agree that the media just jump on the absolute values or the ranking, but with some planning countries can make all sorts of statistical comparisons about students within their countries, income levels, public versus private etc. and hopefully not get so hung up on the country versus country comparisons. I am not sure what the US has done in terms of internal analysis. I assume there is a US government department that has more information.

I think that is exactly right. Unfortunately I only ever see PISA come up in the context of discussing country-by-coun try rankings, usually for political purposes.