Randi's Contribution to Woowooism

[The idea]

At least one person has asserted that a million dollars is not enough money to matter to someone who truly has paranormal abilities. If a million dollars is an appropriate prize, then we would expect at least one person to assert that a million dollars is too much. Then a million dollars will seem to be a good compromise. So, my role is to argue that a million dollars is too much.

Imagine someone who has a strong desire to communicate with a dead loved one. "I would give $995,000 to just hear that person speaking to me." That expresses, for those who are not rich, a very strong desire. It is strong enough to warp judgment. People so much want it to be true that they deceive themselves.

A million dollar prize is just too tempting. "I would give $995,000 just to win the million dollar prize." Why not? You'd be making a profit of $5000. If you want something so much that you would be willing to give $995,000 to get it, then your desire may be strong enough to warp your judgment. You may tell yourself, "I am going to win that money. I have paranormal powers. I must have them, because I need to get my hands on that money."

[Major Billy]

And many, many, others have said that anyone with a smidgion of paranormal power would leap at the chance for a fraction of that.

[Answer]

in a group of 3 there can be only one.. but the fourth merely saw, did not experience. for those who must submit, they shall never see the submission of the 3 kings.. i see now the burden was helped off of me by their hand.

- - - -

P.S.

however.. we abused our gift, he gave us much. none can but submit unto the most true animals. we will never see as they see. their beauty has outshone our own from the beginning. we were once as they, but our sin is our price that is payed.

ridiculous, signs cannot be seen by those who wish not to see. only when they stare at those who rule them will they learn to submit, as we must to the always-true animals.

the fraction is not the separation between humanity of one or another, though those who died first their reward is sufferred.. the elevation of self above self is the payment to Him. separation is the price man must pay. you must necessarily be but a fraction of His grace. none foolish-ape who was once the most will ever know him for truth, the beauty of His creation cannot be known by the sinners.

the true-animals will never see but frozen eternity.. He does feel your pain for you, but the Father bears it with a smile.. for that is all He knows.. His price is your own, none hairless-ape will see the cosmic danse of eternity between particles.. you must see what you have done to yourself, for all of His creation.

for if, He speaks to me.. He is but true, beyond eternity, beyond your explanation of Word. your price is what He demanded as he saw the beginning of Your folly.

You will never see it, never, the hairless-ape has taken from Him and His eyes saw the answer far before You will never see. all is his Truth, the cold-blooded has attempted to elevate Him about Him who all else must necessarily come from.. do not ask for explanation, He has said through me "idiot, you yourself will never understand.. do you think you are free of sin, sinner? you must pay the price, do not ever ask me to explain to you or you will receive negativity. accept Am as This, fool." ..

the foolish dream-believing controllers isolated themselves, fools. keep trying to be clever, you f**king bastards. you are idiots who do not realize that a universe of non-idiots already understands how to read.

Edited to asterisk foul language.

[NullPointerException]

Answer get help, you are so devoid of meaning in your life that you are creating it. It's sad but it's what happens to most woo and it can't be stopped. Of course since you seem to be in the advanced stages maybe you can stop and say hey, maybe I don't need to pretend I know the course and direction of humanities development in order to justify my own existance. Now thats just me, but than again maybe there is something so fundamentally bad about your life that having some secret insight into things that don't exist is absolutely neccesary for your mind to cope. In that case, I would recommend seeing a psychiatrist ASAP because you are steps away from a mental break.

P.S. Just because you're ripping biblical symbolism doesn't make it okay to be crazy.

[Answer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NullPointerException
[B]Answer get help, you are so devoid of meaning in your life that you are creating it. It's sad but it's what happens to most woo and it can't be stopped. Of course since you seem to be in the advanced stages maybe you can stop and say hey, maybe I don't n

[Donn]

The way Answer writes reminds me of another acceptic I read recently on Bad Astronomy. (I forget the moniker)
The form and the rhythm of it is very like RAP music; and the content is Conspiratorial.
So, does this make it total C-RAP...?
;)

[DickK]

Originally posted by Donn
...acceptic... Is that a pun or a typo?

[Vim Razz]

I'm not sure how the one-million-being-too-much argument could be built to hold any water--Randi was offering just 10,000 for several decades if I'm not mistaken. No sucessful claimants.

The only viable reason I can think of that such an individual would ~not~ claim the prize would be: that individual lives a criminal life by nature and cannot affoord to be exposed.

For those holier-than-thou types who claim that money is too debasing: they could -still- get themselves tested (not accepting the money) and they would gain an extraordinary amount of soicial and political leverage for proclaiming their "message."

Of course, those who claim money is debasing still seem to have no qualms about charging hundreds of dollars an hour to their suckers *cough*--I mean thier clients.

[Donn]

I recently challenged someone I know to show me his purported 'psychic powers'. His response was that to show such powers to non-enlightened (read ordinary) people would cause the spiritual-whizz-bang-universal-soul-feedback-loop-thingum to punish him in some way.

It seems it's not possible to show these powers; money or no money... :)

Shame, kind of makes the powers useless if you can only use them around other wielders of said powers...

"Acceptic" is a word I use to reflect the opposite stance to a "Skeptic".

[DickK]

Originally posted by Donn
"Acceptic" is a word I use to reflect the opposite stance to a "Skeptic". Hehe, fair enough... :D

[The idea]

Originally posted by psyduck
The only viable reason I can think of that such an individual would ~not~ claim the prize would be [...]

How about the possibility that an individual wouldn't claim the prize because the individual
(a) is not yet prepared to take the test; or
(b) failed the test but nevertheless hopes to pass the test in the future.

There is nothing unusual about someone working towards some goal and initially failing. For example, consider efforts to win a gold medal in the Olympics. What makes psychic powers different is that it would be hard to imagine any observable progress towards acquiring or using psychic powers.

Originally posted by psyduck
For those holier-than-thou types who claim that money is too debasing: [...]
The point is that the money might be too motivating, not that the money might be debasing. Someone whose beliefs can be warped by desire might be affected by the prospect of winning a million dollars.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by The idea
There is nothing unusual about someone working towards some goal and initially failing. For example, consider efforts to win a gold medal in the Olympics. What makes psychic powers different is that it would be hard to imagine any observable progress towards acquiring or using psychic powers.


No, the difference is that no one has ever been able to succeed in demonstrating psychic powers. People win gold all the time.

[The idea]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
No, the difference is that no one has ever been able to succeed in demonstrating psychic powers. People win gold all the time.
Okay, suppose this discussion is taking place in the year 1970. I compare winning a gold medal in the Olympics to proving Fermat's Last Theorem. Would you say, "The difference is that no one has ever been able to succeed in proving Fermat's Last Theorem"?

[Dark_Lord_Erik]

People have proven theorems before. And not all are proven to be correct. No one, that I know of, has ever been able to prove any supernatural/paranormal powers ever.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Dark_Lord_Erik
People have proven theorems before. And not all are proven to be correct. No one, that I know of, has ever been able to prove any supernatural/paranormal powers ever.
Before there were any hot air balloons, you would be able to say that no one has ever been able to build a machine for people to float over mountains or touch the clouds.

[TheBoyPaj]

In 1970, Fermat's theorem was a shade over 300 years old. A multitude of small steps led to the final discovery of the proof.

For how many years have people been claiming psychic powers?
And how much progress towards proof has been made in that time?

[The idea]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
In 1970, Fermat's theorem was a shade over 300 years old. A multitude of small steps led to the final discovery of the proof.

For how many years have people been claiming psychic powers?
And how much progress towards proof has been made in that time?
Okay, now you're agreeing with me. Here's what I said:

What makes psychic powers different is that it would be hard to imagine any observable progress towards acquiring or using psychic powers.

[TheBoyPaj]

When you describe some applicants as being:
(a) not yet being prepared to take the test; or
(b) failed the test but nevertheless hope to pass the test in the future.

.. you portray the challenge as being akin to an Olympic marathon. You seem to be imagining a handful of people with genuine paranormal powers, but who are not yet focussed enough or limber enough to win the prize.

In reality, all we ask is that they display some, ANY paranormal ability. The reason why no one can display progress towards such a goal is that every preceding milestone is marked "no ability".

[Answer]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
When you describe some applicants as being:
(a) not yet being prepared to take the test; or
(b) failed the test but nevertheless hope to pass the test in the future.

.. you portray the challenge as being akin to an Olympic marathon. You seem to be imagining a handful of people with genuine paranormal powers, but who are not yet focussed enough or limber enough to win the prize.

In reality, all we ask is that they display some, ANY paranormal ability. The reason why no one can display progress towards such a goal is that every preceding milestone is marked "no ability".

woman, the language is mine. you can never understand it. fool, you understand merely the negative-positive, not both. however, my pain is gone. i will do the deed.

er, i do not understand the language, apologies to.. you?? thank you for teaching me, i am wrong, not wrong-right..

the curses, my own.. end it i will. machismo is interesting, arrogance is my domain, i know this. i apologize for this non-sin.

[Answer]

Originally posted by Answer


woman, the language is mine. you can never understand it. fool, you understand merely the negative-positive, not both. however, my pain is gone. i will do the deed.

er, i do not understand the language, apologies to.. you?? thank you for teaching me, i am wrong, not wrong-right..

the curses, my own.. end it i will. machismo is interesting, arrogance is my domain, i know this. i apologize for this non-sin.

this body is stupid thank all for advice doomed am i not this hell ?? yes, i am sorry. i know what must be done, am a coward, am apologize..

long am this created coherence when necessarily the true swystem need not be coherent or indeed need not be existant at all lol very good of you you teach me much much much much

[Vim Razz]

How about the possibility that an individual wouldn't claim the prize because the individual
(a) is not yet prepared to take the test; or
(b) failed the test but nevertheless hopes to pass the test in the future. Fair enough. I had implicitly assumed that the individual in question already felt themselves adequately prepared.

However, claiming that one is not yet prepared for such a test is not the same as claiming that one could win it easily, but simply "doesn't" wish to on account of money issues.

Someone whose beliefs can be warped by desire might be affected by the prospect of winning a million dollars Yet individuals who claim to have "powers" also frequently claim to be more spiritualy / moraly / intelectualy advanced than the rest of us. "Warped desire" should not be such an issue in this regard. If they chose not to use their abililities to--for example--win the lottery or take vegas to the cleaners on the basis of moral sentiment, then I would sympathise with them. Avoiding a situation specificaly designed to allow the showcase of such talents, though, is rather suspect.

[thaiboxerken]

No matter what the prize is, there will always be believers making excuses about why the challenge hasn't been beaten. They won't give you the real reason, which is that such paranormal claims have no basis in reality.

These believers have some choices when it comes to the challenge, they can make excuses and not take it, make their claim untestable or they can fail the test. Option 3 isn't very appealing, so the first two options are usually used. I don't doubt that believers actually believe they have powers, but they are afraid to challenge their beliefs thinking that their worlds will collapse.

It has nothing to do with money or prestige, but of security. The JREF challenge threatens their security blanket of delusion.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Answer


this body is stupid thank all for advice doomed am i not this hell ?? yes, i am sorry. i know what must be done, am a coward, am apologize..

long am this created coherence when necessarily the true swystem need not be coherent or indeed need not be existant at all lol very good of you you teach me much much much much

pillory? is that you?

[Peter Morris]

Originally posted by Dark_Lord_Erik
People have proven theorems before. And not all are proven to be correct. No one, that I know of, has ever been able to prove any supernatural/paranormal powers ever.

That's not quite accurate, there have been a few "supernatural" phenomema, fringe science or quack cures validated over the years.

Once they are proved true, science stops classifying them as "supernatural" and classes them as normal, ordinary known phenomena.

The classic example of this is meteorites. At one time, the church said they were the work of God, science denied their existence and only the superstitious believed in them. Antoine Lavoissier, one the greatest scientists in history famously declared "A stone cannot fall from the sky because there are no stones in the sky" He examined a meteorite and declared that it was merely an ordinary rock struck by lightning. Thomas Jefferson said of a scientist that had witnessed a meteorite fall "I'd sooner believe that a yanke professor would lie than a stone could fall from heaven"

As soon as science proved meteorites to be real, they stopped thinking of it as supernatural.

I cannot conceive of any "paranormal" claim that would remain "paranormal" if it were proved.

[Kopji]

Yet individuals who claim to have "powers" also frequently claim to be more spiritualy / moraly / intelectualy advanced than the rest of us. -psyduck

Yeah, I actually kept away from jref for a while because of this.

The forum seemed to unintentionally give a public place for paranormal proponents to promote their brand of spiritual authority, and use jref as sort of counting coup 'back home'; never really engaging skeptics with more than an emotional bantering. The claim and exercise of this supposed 'authority' sometimes bothers me at a deep level.

I finally decided that dialog with 'believers' is an imperfect and more complex task than I first thought. (I will have to live with my weaknesses in communicating...)

[The idea]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
It has nothing to do with money or prestige, but of security. The JREF challenge threatens their security blanket of delusion.
In other words, the love of money is not the root of all woowooism. Is that a fair summary?

[princhester]

As I understand it, you are suggesting people may become believers in the paranormal because they want the million so badly. I suppose this could happen. But it seems a bit far fetched and anyway, if your whole reason for becoming a woo woo is so that you can apply for the prize, then presumably you are going to do so. At which point your beliefs are going to come back to earth with a thump.

[jimmygun]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about the possibility that an individual wouldn't claim the prize because the individual
(a) is not yet prepared to take the test; or
(b) failed the test but nevertheless hopes to pass the test in the future.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of those that say they are not prepared or sufficiently developed enough to take the test have no qualms about convincing their clients that they have sufficient powers to warrant charging $750.00 per half hour for such services.

[The idea]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Some of those that say they are not prepared or sufficiently developed enough to take the test have no qualms about convincing their clients that they have sufficient powers to warrant charging $750.00 per half hour for such services.
Hence the JREF serves a legitimate function and can continue to serve a legitimate function even if someone wins the prize by actually demonstrating paranormal powers.

[Oleron]

A 'true' psychic could always simply cause the million dollars to disappear from the JREF balance sheet and re-appear in their own bank account. No need for the challenge.
Makes you wonder why this kind of psychic theft doesn't actually happen? Surely the JREF would be a prime target for attack?
There are hundreds of psychics out there who would jump at the chance to make the JREF look like idiots.

Instead they prefer to argue over negligible experimental effects to 'prove' psychic power exists.
If psychic power really existed, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Oleron
A 'true' psychic could always simply cause the million dollars to disappear from the JREF balance sheet and re-appear in their own bank account. No need for the challenge.
Makes you wonder why this kind of psychic theft doesn't actually happen? Surely the JREF would be a prime target for attack?
There are hundreds of psychics out there who would jump at the chance to make the JREF look like idiots.

Maybe a true psychic would be afraid of religious fundamentalists and annoyed at phony psychics who make ordinary people think that all psychics are frauds. So maybe a true psychic would rather siphon some money from Sylvia Browne's bank account.