USA: Becoming More or Less Religious?

[Tony]

I read an article this past weekend about Southern Baptists expanding their ministry in different parts of the country because church attendance has basically flat-lined. I guess they need to “seek out new sheep for their flock”. This got me thinking, is the USA becoming more or less religious?

[Tmy]

I think the country is becoming less CHRISTIAN. When Orielly whiens about the "secularists" I dont think its atheists running the show, I think were getting to a point were you can please all so please none.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Tmy
I think the country is becoming less CHRISTIAN.


Can we have numbers on that? I don't see how that could be the case, frankly, with all the christian immigrants (legal and illegal) that this country sees every year.

[Silicon]

Here's an interesting survey. Not sure how unbiased it is, but big numbers of christians:


# 85% of Americans self-identify as Christians.
# 5% of US adults classify as evangelicals (see Evangelical archive for definition)
# 35% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical
# 37% are self-described Christians but are neither evangelical nor born again
# 8% of adults nationwide maintain self-identify as atheists or agnostics
# 9% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp?CategoryID=2


So as far as America being less religious, there's the non-religious folks, taking that missing 8%.

Did America used to be much more religious than that? C-mon, we're talking single-digits of non-religious people. How much more religious could America have been?

[Tmy]

Yaeh but are they hard core anymore? If you asked me Id say Im catholic, but I have big problems with the organized church. Im not as catholic as my grandma but we'd both be counted the same.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon
Here's an interesting survey. Not sure how unbiased it is, but big numbers of christians:


85% of Americans self-identify as Christians.


http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp?CategoryID=2

I don't think people who identify themselves as Christian are necessarily religious.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon
Here's an interesting survey. Not sure how unbiased it is, but big numbers of christians:


# 85% of Americans self-identify as Christians.
# 5% of US adults classify as evangelicals (see Evangelical archive for definition)
# 35% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical
# 37% are self-described Christians but are neither evangelical nor born again
# 8% of adults nationwide maintain self-identify as atheists or agnostics
# 9% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp?CategoryID=2


So as far as America being less religious, there's the non-religious folks, taking that missing 8%.

Did America used to be much more religious than that? C-mon, we're talking single-digits of non-religious people. How much more religious could America have been?

Again, just because someone says they're a christian doesnt make them religious.

[Silicon]

Now you're asking a different question. Your first post was asking about how many Christians are in the Church.

Now you're asking how much Church is in the Christians!


And who can be the judge of that one? Can you see into the hearts of the parishoners?

"No, that guy's CLEARLY not a REAL CHRISTIANtm".


Hehehe... gotta love religion. I have to laugh, or I'd be crying right now!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon
Now you're asking a different question. Your first post was asking about how many Christians are in the Church.

Now you're asking how much Church is in the Christians!



Not really, my original question was "Is the USA becoming more or less religious?".

You seem to think a self described christian=a religious person. I disagree. A religious person is someone who lives by the codes and morals of their religion and who's religious belief's play a part in their life.

[thaiboxerken]

It's not so much that there are less christians. It's more like less christians are going to church. The salad-buffet christian is becoming more prominent.. the type of christian that makes up his own way of worshipping. This way, they can do what they want and still go to heaven.

[Marvel Frozen]

# 85% of Americans self-identify as Christians.
# 8% of adults nationwide maintain self-identify as atheists or agnostics
# 9% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity

Am I missing something? That adds up to 102%. Unless those categories overlap (which I don't see how they can), something fishy is going on.

Edited to add: According to the pie chart on that page, the "other faiths" group is only 7% which makes the numbers add up.

[hgc]

Church is on TV. Sunday mornings, you can watch Lakewood and a whole host of others. The rest of the week also there is no shortage of church on TV. How many watch the 700 Club, believe that Pat Robertson is turning away hurricanes with a bit of mumbo-jumbo, hardly ever go to a brick-and-mortar church, and still can be called evangelical or born-again or whatever?

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Tony
You seem to think a self described christian=a religious person. I disagree. A religious person is someone who lives by the codes and morals of their religion and who's religious belief's play a part in their life.

Yes, but ACCORDING TO WHOM?

Isn't it by definition that everyone follows the codes and morals of their own religion, no matter what it is?

Know anyone who says "I'm a Christian, but I choose to live contrary to my own beliefs."

I have a hard time figureing out what you're getting at. Do you really believe there is a one true religion, and so everyone not in that church, while they may be in A church, or may have a personal relationship with God, and they follow what they see as God's plan for them, is somehow less religious than those in YOUR church?


If that's your argument, you're welcome to it, but I can't see much reason to discuss it here.

If it's not, and I'm guessing it's not, I really don't understand the measure by which you are gauging religiousness.

Is it devotion of daily time to worship? Is it degree of involvement with church functions?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon

Know anyone who says "I'm a Christian, but I choose to live contrary to my own beliefs."


Yeah I have, most of my friends in high school, myself included and a few friends I have now.

I have a hard time figureing out what you're getting at. Do you really believe there is a one true religion, and so everyone not in that church, while they may be in A church, or may have a personal relationship with God, and they follow what they see as God's plan for them, is somehow less religious than those in YOUR church?

If that's your argument, you're welcome to it, but I can't see much reason to discuss it here.

If it's not, and I'm guessing it's not, I really don't understand the measure by which you are gauging religiousness.

Is it devotion of daily time to worship? Is it degree of involvement with church functions?

Huh? I dont have a church.

I am saying a person who describes themselves as "christian" and a religious person are different things.

What about this do you not understand?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Tony
I read an article this past weekend about Southern Baptists expanding their ministry in different parts of the country because church attendance has basically flat-lined. I guess they need to “seek out new sheep for their flock”. This got me thinking, is the USA becoming more or less religious?

Yes.

What's happening is that the situation is polarizing. The numbers of religious extremists and secularists are both increasing, at the expense of the religious moderates.

So, churches see lower attendance even as the number of vocal fundamentalists goes through the roof. Likewise, secularists find increasing levels of resistance in government even as they get broader acceptance.

Kinda scary if you ask me.

Jeremy

[Snide]

Less religious? I think so. By that, I mean less fundamentalist.

My lineage is Catholic, and while my entire family is still Christian, they pay little attention to most of the silly rules. I see that happening quite a bit (although of course it's no proof to my answer).

What makes a rule "silly" is another thread for another day...

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by toddjh


Yes.

What's happening is that the situation is polarizing. The numbers of religious extremists and secularists are both increasing, at the expense of the religious moderates.
...


My personal experience is similar. The people who I identify as the "devout" are even more so, and more strident. This has a tendency to force their "lukewarm" acquaintences into a decision.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Tony


I am saying a person who describes themselves as "christian" and a religious person are different things.

What about this do you not understand?

I don't understand how a non-religious person can be Christian.

I also don't understand how a Christian can be non-religious.

Isn't Christianity a religion?

[Snide]

Originally posted by Silicon


I don't understand how a non-religious person can be Christian.

I also don't understand how a Christian can be non-religious.

Isn't Christianity a religion? Yes, but people who call themselves Christians will often tell you, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual."

Translation: My critical thinking has taken me far enough not to follow all the silly man-made rules of my church, but I haven't allowed my critical thinking to take me all the way to rejecting Christ altogether."

OWTTE...

[Bentspoon]

A person can be religious and not Christian and can be Christian and not religious.

One can be Christian without ever attending church or even opening a Bible. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is your saviour and you are Christian.

Religion is entirely different. You cannot have a religion unless you practice it. Religions come with rules, protocols, rituals and practices. You have to engage in some of these to say you are part of that religion. I should say all of these must be engaged but the "religious" themselves have created a world of wishy washy truths so that you don'y know what is really necessary. I often wonder about my friends who say they are Catholic and yet never attend church, never partake in communion - nothing. However, their parent's were Catholic so they are.

This by the way is the primary reason Atheism is not a religion. Nothing to practice - no rituals - no rules

Bentspoon

[Silicon]

I thought the primary reason Atheism wasn't a religion is that they don't belive in God!


I'm sorry, I don't buy the idea of beliving in God and Christ as being spiritualism, rather than religion.

God, maybe, if you define it as being a spirit.

But once you start following the teachings of a 2000 year old rabbi, it's religion.



re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[Tony]

Originally posted by toddjh


Yes.



Yes the USA is getting less religious?

or..

Yes the USA is getting more religious?

[Renfield]

The polls seem to show that people believe now as much as they ever did in this country. Yet church attendance is dropping. Maybe people are just getting lazier? They still believe, but just don't bother to worship. People don't seem to take the moral strictures of the Christian churches as seriously either, even if they claim to adhere to one of those faiths.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Tony
Yes the USA is getting less religious?
or..
Yes the USA is getting more religious?

Yes, the USA is getting both more and less religious in different contexts.

If you're concerned with fundamentalists and other religious extremists, it's becoming more religious. If you're talking about the average salad bar Christian, it's becoming less religious.

Jeremy

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Renfield
The polls seem to show that people believe now as much as they ever did in this country. Yet church attendance is dropping. Maybe people are just getting lazier? They still believe, but just don't bother to worship. People don't seem to take the moral strictures of the Christian churches as seriously either, even if they claim to adhere to one of those faiths.

I think this has less to do with religion than with social groups. A lot of people are "Christian" because the segment of society they live in believes that being "Christian" is what "good people" are.

My parents are like this. They go to church, they sing the hymns, they say the prayers, and they don't believe in God any more than I do. It's a club. The Christian Club.

Jeremy

[a_unique_person]

Is there a need for "lack of religion' tolerance? I rarely hear references to god spoken by our pollies, but in the US it appears to be compulsory.

[Some Friggin Guy]

It seems to me, and this is merely a personal observation by someone who is forced to live in the central command of the American Taliban, that it's not so much that the country is becomming more or less religious, it's just that the extremes are getting more extreme. Those who are of the religious extreme are now tryig to rewrite laws and history in their favour and those who are extrememly non-religious are taking the fight right back to them.

[chmara]

Somewhere in this sports dominated win/lose culture, the idea of religion ONLY being exhibited by dogmatic and unchanging belief; and rooting that belief in "Christianity," which is one of the most redacted religions on the planet, I feel we have been moved away from humane, human, civil and logical ways to respect each other in the arenas of ideas and discourse.

Ergo: where is the concept of "loyal opposition" to be found in American politics, or even more laughably, in American religion?

For loyal opposition as a concept to work, there must be a goal (preferably of HOW we maintain freedom) not just an economic solution to human and political problems. Much more needs to be considered. Our news problem de jour heralded in the media may have absolutely nothing to do with real issues confronting us as a nation. It miught stir the hornet's nest of opinion until the next superbowl, Michael Jackson story -- or bare piece of human anatomy being seen by anyone who may someday go to church or grow up ignorant of the differencve between the sexes -- gets in the way.

By working with, considering and testing opposition views and ideas, even to the point to true compromise (not surrender) or proof of efficacy of their ideas as solutions, or even as as tentative solutions we can work together, without oppression, until something better (even different) can be worked out.

The Missouri compromise was shameful. It took blood and apocalyptic defeat of a whole part of the nation to start the change toward civil rights. It took Woodrow Wilson about 45 days as president to stop that change from continuing until the 1960's. Then the revolutionaries like Dr. King, Malcolm X and even Jesse Jackson had had enough. Even then, through the Jim Crowe years, it was the black man's LOYAL opposition that kept the wheels of civil rights moving, albeit slowly.

The right of privacy many claim exists today does not exist in the US constitution per se. The balance between government intrusion into privacy, commercial invasion of privacy and a demand of privacy by individuals, beyond mere control of property, is a modern practice.

Consider this: if, a gay couple was to show up in court and claim to be a "man and woman" for a marriage license, does the court have a right to demand a confirmation of sexual nature??? Or does the right of privacy prevail? Or does this act of proposed civil disobedience constitute criminal perjury, offering the government the right to pull the applicants pants down????

(I hope Hal has a comment on this.)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Silicon


I don't understand how a non-religious person can be Christian.

I also don't understand how a Christian can be non-religious.

Isn't Christianity a religion?

We're dealing with an objective poll. For a good 6 or 7 years of my life, I told anyone who asked (including a poll once) that I was "Lutheran", even though I wasn't going to church or even thinking or caring about the whole Jesus-God thing, simply because I used to be, but hadn't fully and completely decided I wanted to change yet. It was a mechanical response.

[Lothian]

I think the American govenment has become more Religious.

[Lemastre]

How do you define religious? Or, how did the compilers of the statistics you cite define it? Is it a certain frequency of church attendance? Is it a belief in god and/or life after death? Is it following a certain code of ethics as espoused by a religious sect? Is it being on the membership roll of some congregation? I think people are pretty much as always regarding how they conduct their lives vis a vis following the precepts of the church. I would think that most people in America would call themselves christian if only because they haven't been introduced to any of the other religions.