Are you sure you're not going to Hell?

[Question]

If so, how sure are you?

[WinAce]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

About as sure as that we won't be abducted for slave labor by aliens, or hunted down by Zombie Elvis... why do you ask? ;)

[c4ts]

I'm sure that there is no Hell as described by any particular religious text. The very concept of eternal punishment is inherently unjust, contradicting any actions of a just deity.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Sure enough to say that I'm sure that god beats up kittens and Jesus was gay.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by c4ts
I'm sure that there is no Hell as described by any particular religious text. The very concept of eternal punishment is inherently unjust, contradicting any actions of a just deity.

Only if you believe that God *sends* people to Hell, against the will of the person in question.

Hell is an extension of the rejection of God that happens in life. In both cases it is a choice of the person. God wishes for reconciliation and conversion but it must happen on God's terms, and every human must capitulate and cease fighting. An individual will be allowed to eternally hold on to his/her pride.

-Elliot

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

100% There is no hell.

[Sindai]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Only if you believe that God *sends* people to Hell, against the will of the person in question.

Hell is an extension of the rejection of God that happens in life. In both cases it is a choice of the person. God wishes for reconciliation and conversion but it must happen on God's terms, and every human must capitulate and cease fighting. An individual will be allowed to eternally hold on to his/her pride.

What you described is a god sending someone to hell against their will.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Sindai


What you described is a god sending someone to hell against their will.

You either live eternally in the grace of God, or outside the grace of God. You can not live in the grace of God on your own terms. Failure to appreciate that is a choice to place your concept of how the universe should operate over God's. So due to this choice you are no longer in the grace of God.

The phrase *sending someone to hell* implies that it is a physical locale created by God. Rather, it is a private place filled only with what the individual brings to it. If you want yourself over God, that's what you will get. Nothing to do with sending. If anything God is just letting a person have what they want most. His/her self.

-Elliot

[evildave]

As sure as I can say that people don't know #*&@ about gods.

I mean, just look at the silly rationalizations here, based on a mesh of assumptions for which there is no evidence.

"Look at me, I'm God's Own Sock Puppet! Take my word for it, or you're ALL DAMNED! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Assumes:
* One (or more) GOD(s) exists.
* One (or more) GOD(s) is aware of humans.
* One (or more) GOD(s) has power over dead humans.
* One (or more) GOD(s) exercises that power.
* One (or more) GOD(s) uses that power to "judge".
* One (or more) GOD(s) has a "Hell" to put dead people into.
* One (or more) GOD(s) has more than one place to put dead people into.
* Such a "Hell" is unpleasant.
* Dead people will notice the difference.
* This person knows exactly how one (or more) GOD(s) is going to decide something.
* Because this person presumes he knows everything this/these GOD(s) do, all of their habits, quirks, etc., where they can PREDICT with CERTAINTY a fate as will be decided by one of these aforementioned entities.
* Among numerous other unsupportable assumptions.

If a "heaven" is full of the kind of people who claim to want to be there to the exclusion of people "like me" (who should be suffering forever, after all), then it's a "hell" for having all of them there, and I simply want nothing to do with such people, in such a place.

[Renfield]

I know because I am going to Valhalla, where all great warriors go when they die in battle, as I am destined to do.

[BroodingSkill]

Hell, I'm already there.:D

Seriously now, I'm quite certain there is no hell to go to.

[DarkMagician]

100%. Where I'm currently at is multitudes worse that they can save money just by keeping me alive.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by c4ts
I'm sure that there is no Hell as described by any particular religious text. The very concept of eternal punishment is inherently unjust, contradicting any actions of a just deity.

The original question didn't say anything about a just diety. :p

[fishbob]

Get real.

We are living in the 21st century and you are still asking about mythology.

Cowards can worry they might go to hell if they don't act right. The rest of us just get by.

[RabbiSatan]

evildave...I just love your cynical sense of humor :D

But to answer the question: I don't put any stock in such rubbish in the first place, so for me, there's nothing to be sure about.

What's your definition of hell in any case? Muslim? Christian? Buddhist? (I'm not familiar with the Judaic, Sikh, Hindu, etc versions of hell, can anyone help clarify it for me?)

[Checkmite]

Pretty damned sure. At least, I'm praying there's no Hell...


Well, to be painfully honest, no I'm not sure. However, if there's even a remote possibility that Hell exists, I'll probably end up there. There's simply so many mutually exclusive ways to "get out", there's no rational justification for choosing one over another, because you'll probably choose the wrong one. So instead, I choose a worldview that excludes Hell. Talk about a stress reliever!

On the other hand, there are some people who seem very certain that I am going to Hell (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34892).

[Humphreys]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Are you sure you're not going to Planet X when you die, to get tortured by evil X peoples?

If so, how sure are you, and why?

[jcon96]

I am sure until proven otherwise (and not by what is written in a book often used to prove said point)

[CWL]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Why do you ask?

[thaiboxerken]

Which concept of hell are you talking about? Even among christians, the concept of hell differs.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by evildave



If a "heaven" is full of the kind of people who claim to want to be there to the exclusion of people "like me" (who should be suffering forever, after all), then it's a "hell" for having all of them there, and I simply want nothing to do with such people, in such a place.

To be in heaven you can't maintain that all the ideas you had on earth were correct. In other words, if some Christians believe that only people who accepted Christ on earth can achieve eternal life with God, they'll have to relinquish that idea if it is, in fact, false.

So evildave, you'll be alright.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by fishbob
Get real.

We are living in the 21st century and you are still asking about mythology.

Cowards can worry they might go to hell if they don't act right. The rest of us just get by.

I agree. If you really believe in hell, there is nothing to worry about. Why would you want to reject God eternally if you believe that such an option is possible and leads to a certain conclusion?

-Elliot

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?
I'm not sure. I think the only way you can be sure is to convert to Islam, strap a bomb to your body, and kill some Jews in an explosion of praise to Allah.

I think most people accept that.

But it's tough. They make you learn all these prayers and stuff before they let you convert. And I'm having trouble remembering them all.

[Marquis de Carabas]

100% sure. Puss told me, and he never lies...

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

I left hell when I left my ex-wife and there is no way in heaven, hell, or Earth that I am going back to her.

So, yes, I am sure that I am not going to hell!

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Question
Are you sure you're not going to Hell?

I'm not sure, but I certainly hope so. All the interesting guys will be there (I said interesting, not "Interesting").

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by evildave
As sure as I can say that people don't know #*&@ about gods.

I mean, just look at the silly rationalizations here, based on a mesh of assumptions for which there is no evidence.

"Look at me, I'm God's Own Sock Puppet! Take my word for it, or you're ALL DAMNED! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Assumes...


Nothing of the sort.

The original question mentioned Hell, but not God.

Perhaps Hell has nothing to do with divine justice at all, that merely being a pious inference.

It could be that there is no God and that Hell is a natural phenomenon, like many other unpleasant things. The statement "You are going to Hell" would have no moral implications at all.

Or it could be that God has no use for puny mortal concepts such as "justice". :p

All you have done is heap scorn on the concept of a cosmic sugar daddy. :D

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by elliotfc


I agree. If you really believe in hell, there is nothing to worry about. Why would you want to reject God eternally if you believe that such an option is possible and leads to a certain conclusion?

-Elliot

Um, right, just worries about whether you'll go to hell or not. Nothwithstanding the idea that hell may or may not exist.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


The original question didn't say anything about a just diety. :p

Exactly. I don't think there is anyone who would admit to believing in an unjust deity. I also don't believe in a just deity, but that's another story...

[Michael Redman]

I'm sure enough that I don't hesitate to live my live as if there is no danger of hell. I see no reason to be more sure than that of anything.

[Jet Grind]

I'd need to be provided with positive empirical evidence of this place called "Hell" before I make a decision on how sure I am I'm not going there.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by elliotfc
You either live eternally in the grace of God, or outside the grace of God. You can not live in the grace of God on your own terms. Failure to appreciate that is a choice to place your concept of how the universe should operate over God's. So due to this choice you are no longer in the grace of God.Very well. When I die and see what truly being out of the grace of God is like for, oh, a tenth of a second or so, I expect that I will want to be in the grace of God again. If that's all it takes, I'm sure He will accept me back into His grace immediately, right?

I have no concept of how the universe should operate, beyond the concepts and experiences God has seen fit to expose me to.

The phrase *sending someone to hell* implies that it is a physical locale created by God. Rather, it is a private place filled only with what the individual brings to it. If you want yourself over God, that's what you will get. Nothing to do with sending. If anything God is just letting a person have what they want most. His/her self.This makes a lot of sense. But it's certainly not the Christian notion of Hell.

[evildave]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


Nothing of the sort.

The original question mentioned Hell, but not God.

Perhaps Hell has nothing to do with divine justice at all, that merely being a pious inference.

It could be that there is no God and that Hell is a natural phenomenon, like many other unpleasant things. The statement "You are going to Hell" would have no moral implications at all.

Or it could be that God has no use for puny mortal concepts such as "justice". :p

All you have done is heap scorn on the concept of a cosmic sugar daddy. :D

Well, in most mentions of "Hell", a god of some sort normally figures into it. Be it the one that's "protecting" you from it (if only you develop those brown-nose skills), and the one who's waiting there for you.

Otherwise, you could just call it an "afterlife", or whatever. The label "H/hell" belongs to the fundies who commit people to suffering in their own hearts.

[fishbob]

I agree. If you really believe in hell, there is nothing to worry about. Why would you want to reject God eternally if you believe that such an option is possible and leads to a certain conclusion?
Elliot has missed the point completely.
There is no hell. I live my life based on this.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by c4ts

Exactly. I don't think there is anyone who would admit to believing in an unjust deity....

No belief in unjust dieties? How about the ancient Greeks and Romans?

OK it's out of fashion these days. :D

[Calee]

Originally posted by elliotfc




The phrase *sending someone to hell* implies that it is a physical locale created by God. Rather, it is a private place filled only with what the individual brings to it.
-Elliot

I'm bringin' a Gameboy...

[aries]

HI !

As i see there is no hell --- so we can't go to hell ---

but what we can do os making life on earth a living hell for all of us

by not treating each other right ---

not showing compassion, forgiveness and spiritual love towards each other

so no, i'm not going to hell (after I die) nor are you --- because there simply does not exist Hell (in my opinion)

aries

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


No belief in unjust dieties? How about the ancient Greeks and Romans?

OK it's out of fashion these days. :D

Even the Greeks would say that Zeus is just.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by c4ts

Even the Greeks would say that Zeus is just.

Doubt it ? Compared to the Christian god Zeus is an exemplar of justice. He sent noone to Hell, everyone was going to the underwolrd once dead, and he would punish immediately anyone who got on his nerves. Simple and straightforward.

[EdipisReks]

Cthulhu is even more just than Zeuss: everybody is a snack.

[RandFan,Jr.]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

How sure are you that Hank is not going to kick the sh*t out of you? (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv)

How sure are you that there are no invisible pink unicorns?

You may substitute your answers to the above for mine as it pertains to your question.

FWIW, if you send me ten percent of your income I will kiss Hank's ass for you.

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Originally posted by elliotfc
The phrase *sending someone to hell* implies that it is a physical locale created by God. Rather, it is a private place filled only with what the individual brings to it.
-Elliot


Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.



you're calling god a lier!?



Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



I guess god wants some to go to hell.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Utterly meaningless question. I have to assume you are talking about one of the various hells suggested by or inferred from the Hebrew/Christian and or Catholic and or Mormon bible. It always irritates me when people ask question which contain so many assumptions and presumptions as though these assumptions are universally accepted. It's like the question "Do you believe in "God" or not?" I have no friggin idea what that question even means. God who? Maybe if you could add some particulars - give this hell and this God some actual attributes and some characteristics it could be a meaningful question. Do I believe that there is a chance I will go to one of the various places of eternal suffering that some guys dreamed up and wrote about in some book? No, not a chance. Is there a chance that there is more to existence than that which seems obviously real - well maybe.

[evildave]

A 'lier', eh?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lier

lier

\Li"er\ (l"[~e]r), n. [From Lie. ] One who lies down; one who rests or remains, as in concealment.

There were liers in ambush against him. --Josh. viii. 14.

Sounds fair. God just [i]creates tons of traps to tempt people into a 'Hell', and sends them there without mercy when people are ensnared.

Why not? God made mosquitoes and malaria, too.

I feel a song comming on... "All things dull and ugly, all creatures short and squat...."

[phildonnia]

Well, we know that the Bible can be trusted since it says so in the Bible. The Bible also has this to say:

"All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Ecclesiastes 3:20 KJV).

I should point out: under a loose interpretation of "dust", this statement seems to be in accord with objective fact.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by c4ts


Even the Greeks would say that Zeus is just.

If you force yourself on a woman, it's not rape if you first metamorphose into a bull? Is that it?

Or a swan? I won't even get into that 'shower of gold' business.

What if you metamorphose her into a heifer? :p

[Regnad Kcin]

I don't know, seems like a nice little place (http://www.hell2u.com/index.php).

[RandFan,Jr.]

Originally posted by phildonnia
Well, we know that the Bible can be trusted since it says so in the Bible. "...this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by bewareofdogmas



Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.



you're calling god a lier!?

Abraham is not the chief of heaven of course. This is no doubt how the rich man rationalizes, or experiences his Hell, by confusing God and Abraham.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by fishbob

Elliot has missed the point completely.
There is no hell. I live my life based on this.

Of course you live your life based on your beliefs. People base their lives on all sorts of beliefs. My only suggestion is that you consider the alternative, for it'll be a shock to you when you find your beliefs are wrong. In such a circumstance I'd hope you accept that at seek understanding and reconciliation. If that sounds like nonsense, and something you would never possibly do, then you can keep the idea that there is no hell for all eternity, you'll be allowed to do that.

-Elliot

[Tricky]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Of course you live your life based on your beliefs. People base their lives on all sorts of beliefs. My only suggestion is that you consider the alternative, for it'll be a shock to you when you find your beliefs are wrong. In such a circumstance I'd hope you accept that at seek understanding and reconciliation. If that sounds like nonsense, and something you would never possibly do, then you can keep the idea that there is no hell for all eternity, you'll be allowed to do that.

You should also consider that your beliefs might be wrong. If atheists are correct, you have nothing to worry about, but suppose some other religion is correct and it is Christians that will suffer a hellish eternity? Why should atheists be more afraid of Christian hell than any other religion's version of eternal damnation? I'd have to say that if any religion is correct about afterlife punishment, then it is the "neutral" players who are less likely to get the worst of things rather than the guys on the wrong side.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Well considering that I was never baptised and bypassed satan for a bunch of pagan dieties, most of them female. I am positive that I would be going to hell, but there is no such place.
God made me the way i am so I don't worry.

By Bast's breasts and Venus's v*****, Freya's furry mons....

[fishbob]

My only suggestion is that you consider the alternative, for it'll be a shock to you when you find your beliefs are wrong. In such a circumstance I'd hope you accept that at seek understanding and reconciliation. Oh, the cowards argument.

I have better things to do with my time than to squeak around life in fear of going to hell. I have better things to do than strain my brain trying to reconcile a mythology with the real world. My suggestion to you is that you get a life, and stop worrying about what might happen when your life is over.

[varwoche]

Maybe this is hell. ;)

[Flo]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Of course you live your life based on your beliefs. People base their lives on all sorts of beliefs. My only suggestion is that you consider the alternative, for it'll be a shock to you when you find your beliefs are wrong. In such a circumstance I'd hope you accept that at seek understanding and reconciliation. If that sounds like nonsense, and something you would never possibly do, then you can keep the idea that there is no hell for all eternity, you'll be allowed to do that.

-Elliot

Which alternative ? There are a few thousand alternatives going on at the moment, every single one of them pretending they are the only true one. What makes you think that yours is better, truer, more deserving of consideration ? Why should we spend our lives in fear of any of those fantasies ?

[iain]

I haven't been to Hell, but I have been to Hull (http://www.hull.co.uk/index.aspx) which probably isn't too different.

If you believe the Chick Tracts, everyone is going to Hell apart from hard-line protestants so if I do end up there, at least I'll have Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Buddists, New Agers, Hindus, Pagans etc. etc. etc. to keep me company. How the saved will be gloating as they enjoy our suffering from the safety of Heaven.

Can't see it myself.

(Oh - and if Angel can survive for 100 years in Hell and come out psychologically unscarred, just a little more broody, then it can't be so bad ;) ).

[Flo]

Originally posted by iain
If you believe the Chick Tracts, everyone is going to Hell apart from hard-line protestants ....


Wrong. If you believe believers in hell, everyone is going there, except themselves, a precious few members of their congregation (the ones who are not better off in life than themselves), some members of their family (especially the nice cousin who keeps forgetting to ask for repayment of the money she loaned), and their pets (well, not the cat that just threw up in their shoes) ;)

[Keziah Mason]

Right, and just which mythology are we supposed to consider as the "one and true WAY(tm)!" when aswering this question?

Personally, I think all of them are bunk.

[frisian]

Originally posted by Chanileslie


100% There is no hell.

:con2:

Well that, is so not skeptical.

[max]

Last night on the beeb there was a programme about God and many questions were raised. Tens of thousands of interviews had been conducted globally. One question was do you believe in God. The USA survey reported that 76% of Americans believed. I guess the other 24% are on this forum.:D

[billydkid]

Originally posted by max
Last night on the beeb there was a programme about God and many questions were raised. Tens of thousands of interviews had been conducted globally. One question was do you believe in God. The USA survey reported that 76% of Americans believed. I guess the other 24% are on this forum.:D

What on earth does it mean to "believe in God"? Does it count to believe in Zeus or Aphrodite? Or maybe the question was phrased "Do you believe it THE God." And the one would have to ask which THE God is being refered to. Which begs the question how does one recognize this God when one encounters it? What particular attributes does this God have that one might be able to distinguish him from the rest our experience? You run into problems the minute you begin to ascribe to this God any particular, distinguishable attributes or characteristics. How do you not dismiss a God who does not have any features? And if you give him features how do you defend his existence when none of those features display themselves in any demonstratable way?

[max]

Billy
It was whatever god the interviewee believed in, so yes it could've been Zeus if that was their god

[Ian Perez]

Originally posted by varwoche
Maybe this is hell. ;)

So hell is a place with millions of religious people trying to convert you to their way of thinking, even thought they're wrong by virtue of they being in hell already? Interesting.

[Meffy]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

Oh, very very sure.

http://members.tripod.com/~theastronomer/camerashy3.html

(fifth photo down)

NASA won't let me into the astronaut corps.

[Cecil]

I'm a masochist*, so I can't wait to get to hell! Or will God send me to heaven instead, where I will have the eternal punishment of never being tortured?








*not really ;)

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I don't know, seems like a nice little place (http://www.hell2u.com/index.php).

On the other hand, I've been to Nice (http://www.city-data.com/city/Nice-California.html) and it was hell.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Originally posted by Question
If so, how sure are you?

100% sure. Human death is the equivalent to a light bulb burning out.

[Lisa Simpson]

I can't prove that Hell exists, or Heaven or any kind of supreme being. Any more than anyone can prove they do exist.

But I can live my life with compassion for others and any afterlife if one should exist, will sort itself out.

My first post, YAY!

[Atlas]

Good first post Lisa Simpson,

You sound like the intelligent one in your family.

Welcome to the party