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CelticRose
22nd October 2010, 03:52 PM
Some very misguided people have organized a Communication Shutdown on Nov. 1st to "support" people with autism. They propose to do this by staying off of social networking sites on that day.

Please read the linked blog post by a woman diagnosed with autism, particularly the quoted paragraph, to see why this is a bad idea.
http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2010/10/22/speak-up-on-november-1st/
Whether we’re verbal or nonverbal, does telling people to stay off social communication networks really create empathy for us? The Internet is how we find one another. It’s where many of us feel heard. It’s where many of us feel most comfortable. Staying away from any form of online communication will not draw attention “to the isolation and intense loneliness experienced by those who are impeded from connecting socially with others.” We’re not impeded from connecting socially online. And we wouldn’t be impeded from connecting socially in the rest of the world if people had a little more empathy for how we feel and met us halfway. At any rate, it’s counterproductive to tell non-autistic people to stay away from online sites when so many autistic people overcome “isolation and intense loneliness” by connecting with one another online. How can anyone possibly develop empathy for us if they’re not even aware that we speak loudly and clearly in our online communities?

It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out. If you are not autistic, please at least boycott the Communication Shutdown.

Thank you.

Fnord
22nd October 2010, 04:16 PM
I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie (http://dwaafnord.wordpress.com/)", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

CelticRose
23rd October 2010, 12:04 AM
I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie (http://dwaafnord.wordpress.com/)", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance. Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either.

Bob Blaylock
23rd October 2010, 01:08 AM
The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea.

I strongly suspect that I may have some form of autism. So what? It doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else, and it doesn't give me any greater need to gratuitously call attention to myself.

Whatever such “day with…” or “day without…” or similarly dumb ideas anyone may try to promote, I will ignore, and will go about living my life that day exactly as I do every other day.

CelticRose
23rd October 2010, 09:23 AM
Here are some more blog posts on this subject:

http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2010/10/19/communication-shutdown-for-autism-a-bad-idea
I don’t know whether I’ll participate. But I’m certainly not participating in “communication shutdown”. You see, there are other people, besides autistics, who rely on the Internet for their social interaction, namely those who are bed-bound or housebound. Some of them are sick, in pain, and lonely, and the last thing they need is their friends cutting them off for a day, perhaps the very day they most need them, even if it is supposedly in aid of another group of disabled people. So, I’d like to say to people out there who’ve got friends in this condition not to cut them off by participating in this ill-conceived event, and if you do, perhaps you could visit a friend who was in need, or talk to them on the phone. Make it “open up day” rather than shut-down day.
This guy makes a good point. This "communication shutdown" will hurt anyone who depends on the internet for social interaction. I have a friend who's housebound, and he would be almost completely isolated if not for the internet.

http://womanwithaspergers.com/2010/10/20/why-communication-shutdown-day-is-a-bad-idea-and-what-you-can-do-instead/
http://astridvanwoerkom.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/speak-up-on-shutdown/
http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com/2010/10/no-im-not-going-silent-for-autism.html

Fnord
23rd October 2010, 09:47 AM
The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea...
So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

:mad:

Sledge
23rd October 2010, 09:49 AM
It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out.
And say what?

Fnord
23rd October 2010, 09:56 AM
The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance.
That may be the official reason, but from my perspective (and that of many other non-hispanics I've spoken with), the 'real' reasons it failed were because on that day: (1) About a quarter of the vehicles were missing from the freeways; (2) Waitstaff and servers spoke English; (3) Shorter lines at the convenience stores; (4) More parking spaces everywhere; (5) No leaf-blowers or lawn-mowers roaring at sunrise; (6) Less than a 30-minute wait at the emergency rooms; et cetera...

The main reason that the "Day Without a Mexican" failed in its intended purpose was that non-Hispanics felt that they actually benefitted from it!
Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either.
The people taking off from work that day don't have to be on the Autistic spectrum... ;)

Bob Blaylock
23rd October 2010, 04:33 PM
So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.


In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Pauliesonne
23rd October 2010, 06:03 PM
As someone with aspergers, what do people expect me to say?

Vic Vega
23rd October 2010, 07:34 PM
Dp

Vic Vega
23rd October 2010, 07:37 PM
So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

:mad:



What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to.


You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference.

CelticRose
23rd October 2010, 09:50 PM
@Sledge and Pauliesonne: Whatever you think people need to hear about autism/Aspergers. Or if you're like me and aren't very eloquent, just post links and quotes galore. :D

Disclaimer: I may or may not be autistic. I have a strong suspicion that I am, but I can't afford to go to a doctor and find out for sure.

CelticRose
23rd October 2010, 10:19 PM
In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

From the link in the OP (sorry for so many quotes, but Ms. Cohen-Rottenberg says it so much better than I can):
We are silenced every time non-autistic people say we are silent.

We are silenced when “autism organizations” speak for us rather than including us.

We are silenced when the “autism community” isn’t led by autistic people.

We are silenced every time non-autistic people call each other “experts” and ignore the fact that we actually live the autistic experience every day.

We are silenced when people give to “autism charities” on our behalf, as though we are victims in need of rescue.

We are silenced every time we are ignored, in situations large and small.

We are silenced when people do not have enough empathy to invite us into a conversation.

We are silenced every time we are told we are “too sensitive” in the face of bullying, harassment, and social ostracism.

We are silenced every time that non-autistic people treat us as though we’re broken.

We are silenced by every act of disrespect, dismissal, and ignorance we encounter.
Bolding mine.

If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against, i.e., those who assume that we can just "get over ourselves" and act like everyone else. We can't. For example, no amount of "attitude adjustment" is going to enable me to be able to follow a conversation when there are more than 2 other people involved.

BTW, I am no "whiny parasite". I have a job, and I do not receive any kind of disability funding. I manage to pay my own way even though I am consistently underemployed and have trouble keeping a job because a) I am incapable of making social chitchat, which seems to be more important to employers than doing the actual job, and b) I have so much difficulty communicating with so-called "normal" people that it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages even though we both speak English. Yet when I lose yet another job I don't moan that I'm being "oppressed" -- I pick myself up and go find another job.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself.

Bob Blaylock
23rd October 2010, 11:41 PM
If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against…·
·
·You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself.


My attitude is that my condition does not make me any better or worse than anyone else, does not entitle me to any special treatment or recognition, and does not constitute any excuse for me to contribute any less to society, or to demand any more from society.

By making such a fuss over your condition, and how “oppressed” you are because of it, and what special privileges and recognition you think you are entitled to because of it, you are insulting everyone else who has this same condition, and who manages to live a fairly normal, productive life. You make us all look like entitlement-minded, self-centered crybabies.

Damien Evans
24th October 2010, 02:53 AM
I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie (http://dwaafnord.wordpress.com/)", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

As a student this isn't really feasible for me.

Damien Evans
24th October 2010, 02:58 AM
What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to.


You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference.

What sort of research?

If it's for a "cure", count me out, because the only way we know that could "cure" aspergers syndrome would leave me no longer me.

TubbaBlubba
24th October 2010, 03:09 AM
I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.


I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Damien Evans
24th October 2010, 05:56 AM
I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.


I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Treatment for any conditions that come with it (anxiety etc.) I'm fine with, but when the only current way we know of that could "cure" aspergers would be massive brain surgery leaving you a completely different person I'm rather less ok with it.

TubbaBlubba
24th October 2010, 07:45 AM
Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome?

jiggeryqua
24th October 2010, 08:53 AM
If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option.

It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'.

But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone.

I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens.

jiggeryqua
24th October 2010, 09:03 AM
Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome?

What are you suggesting to 'cure' Aspergians? You're the one insisting on treatment, don't pretend it's a massive strawman. Nor is it a strawman to ask what 'treatment' you suggest for being black, female, gay or paraplegic.

The 'treatment' is ramps. I don't have to point out that you're not to take that literally, do I?

CelticRose
24th October 2010, 09:52 PM
I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.
Go on social networking sites like you normally would and don't donate to the charity sponsoring the communication blackout.

Doing nothing will actually help. :D


I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.
The opposition is not so much to treatment to help people function as it is to finding a "cure".

Most people with autism want help with learning how to function in society. In fact, a big gripe is that there aren't very many services to help autistic adults function -- the focus seems to be on children.

What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated. There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted.

Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me.

TubbaBlubba
25th October 2010, 12:27 AM
Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option.

It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'.

But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone.

I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens.

I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that?

Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement.

If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to.

Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause.

I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment. Some people may choose to overlook it due to your other redeeming qualities, others won't. And if you choose not to take medication that may help, people certainly are in the right to move away from you if they feel that, perhaps, you're egotistical in not taking a medication, and placing an excessive burden on them.

As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis.

Uncayimmy
25th October 2010, 01:02 AM
Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me.

Is it a neurological disorder or condition? If it's the latter, we all have neurological conditions that affect our personalities. Anyone who has ever raised a child (especially if more than one) clearly sees how much of the personality is present without any form of nurture. Many of us choose to alter our personalties, such as the shy person who takes up public speaking, the addict who stays away from drugs, or the volatile person who wants to control their anger.

I'm puzzled as to what you want from society.

CelticRose
25th October 2010, 09:54 PM
Is it a neurological disorder or condition?
That's a very good question. I wish I had an answer for it. I think a lot depends on how one defines disorder or condition.

I'm puzzled as to what you want from society.
Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

TubbaBlubba
25th October 2010, 10:00 PM
Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

So not any special treatment.

Pauliesonne
25th October 2010, 10:17 PM
I've never even thought of asking for respect and acceptance for having aspergers.

But I seem to get it anyway.

It's the bisexual thing that I want and for the most case, that's what I get.

CelticRose
25th October 2010, 10:18 PM
So not any special treatment.
Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations.

However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help.

Uncayimmy
26th October 2010, 12:11 AM
Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

In what ways does that not happen now?

The Central Scrutinizer
26th October 2010, 05:24 AM
I think everyone with autism should get vaccinated on Nov 1.

TubbaBlubba
26th October 2010, 05:31 AM
Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations.

However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help.
And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?

jiggeryqua
26th October 2010, 05:59 AM
I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that?

I did not imply that. Where do you think you see such implication?

Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement.

No comparisons are absurd. Some things that are compared will have less in common than others, but 100% commonality indicates identical things, and to 'compare' something to itself is absurd and only doesn't contradict the opening sentence of this paragraph because it isn't, in fact, a comparison.

Do, please, point out any and all dissimilar elements of any things I compare to other things. I'll promise not to be faintly patronising in response.

I am unsure what you mean by 'It emphasises excessive entitlement'. I'm guessing 'it' is '[my] comparisons', and they 'emphasises (sic) excessive entitlement'. Where is the excessive entitlement, whatever that may mean?

(By the by, I was talking of racism and sexism, not apartheid - which tends to imply South African politics - or misogyny, which is really very uncommon and has been appropriated as a misunderstood word to stand for 'witch' in the current mechanics of social outrage.)

If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to.

Or, as you might more relevantly have said, "Now, at last, and after much direct action by a disability lobby that inconvenienced the able-bodied community and raised awareness of the social disability model, we make sure they can get where they want to.

Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause.

Again, for the hard of understanding: Aspergians do not 'feel' they don't fit in, any more than a square peg 'feels' it doesn't fit in a round hole. Disability rights groups (I'll skip the other examples you 'feel' show excessive entitlement) did not 'feel' disadvantaged by a societal attitude that said 'I can get up stairs, you can't, there are stairs, because I built them to get up there, so you are disabled by them and here's some happy pills for your hurt feelings'. They did not 'feel' disadvantaged, they were disadvantaged.

The changes in society that enable not only wheelchair-users but also, for example, blind and deaf people were not the gift of some altruistic society, no matter how much you 'bet' on that result. The squeaky wheel eventually got some grease. I'm prepared to belief that since then awareness has grown such that a lot of voters would approve a policy of free prosthetic legs for all - but it would still be politicians deciding whether that happened...because let's face it, it could happen. We put men on the moon, a massively expensive operation - we lack a similar compulsion to distribute free legs.

I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment.

Oh, I see, you think autists are arguing for some law or other that would oblige people to like them. No wonder I've not been catching your drift. If you, for whatever reason, can't get up these steps, why should I expend excessive energy arranging special treament for you? Build your own ramp, whiner.

As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis.

Where 'right' equals 'something I think people should have, because I would want it'. Terminating pregnanices due to unwanted genes is a right...whatever the name of the biosocial pseudoscience.

TubbaBlubba
26th October 2010, 06:14 AM
OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society?

jiggeryqua
26th October 2010, 07:08 AM
OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society?

You think that would be short?

ETA: Let's graciously assume you didn't actually mean everything I would want 'from' society (which is at least four assumptions), nor 'exactly' (which is not really an assumption because you can't have meant 'exactly' and 'short' and I'm sure you meant 'short'). My best effort at a concise expression of what I expect from society, at least in the terms of this thread, is 'continued progress'.

Have at it, sir.

Uncayimmy
26th October 2010, 07:13 AM
You think that would be short?

The question was short. Your answer can be as long as you want it to be.

jiggeryqua
26th October 2010, 07:31 AM
The question was short. Your answer can be as long as you want it to be.

You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

My questions were relatively short, but apparantly none were short enough to warrant a response, any response at all...other than an ambiguous, misleading, goal-post shifting question.

You can make your answers as long as you want, Tubba, but if it helps let's start with just one of the questions your previous post raised (all of which you neglected to respond to) and let's keep it short:

What, exactly, do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'

Uncayimmy
26th October 2010, 07:55 AM
You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

I would appreciate if you would follow the progression below and respond. The original question was asking what the person wants from society.

Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

In what ways does that not happen now?

Skwinty
26th October 2010, 08:21 AM
I can understand ramps etc for the wheelchair bound.
That is a failing of society to provide access to public places for people in wheel chairs.

As for respect and acceptance, well my parents taught me that those reactions from society, are earned and not just given, regardless of race, creed, belief or condition.

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

Now I understand that Aspies, at least those who are affected more severely, have problems with social interaction.
People should, if they are aware of the persons condition, react with compassion and understanding.

However, in many cases, society is not aware of this on first encountering the Aspie. So I think that a little understanding from both sides is in order.

The only way we can garner that understanding is through dialogue and interaction.:)

TubbaBlubba
26th October 2010, 10:17 AM
You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

My questions were relatively short, but apparantly none were short enough to warrant a response, any response at all...other than an ambiguous, misleading, goal-post shifting question.

You can make your answers as long as you want, Tubba, but if it helps let's start with just one of the questions your previous post raised (all of which you neglected to respond to) and let's keep it short:

What, exactly, do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'
The problem is that unless you state clearly what you want, you can just acrobat your way around anything I say and reply with "No, that's not really what I meant!" and make up more irrelevant analogies about black people and wheelchairs.

What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society. I don't know what it is, since you haven't said so yet. Using the term "Aspergians" appears to be a warning flag.

Alt+F4
26th October 2010, 10:26 AM
What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated.

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted.

Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.

jiggeryqua
26th October 2010, 02:19 PM
I would appreciate if you would follow the progression below and respond. The original question was asking what the person wants from society.

Ah, a progression that included a remark from you - as it happens, I only just unignored you to see what you'd said in response to my post, but in the expectation of popping you back on ignore from weary experience of you dragging everything down to some sort of wrestling match.

Just before I do, I'll point out that Tubba was apparantly responding to my post, rather than the 'progression' you mention. I don't know if you'd appreciate him answering any of the questions I raised - I know I would but he hasn't...

jiggeryqua
26th October 2010, 02:42 PM
The problem is that unless you state clearly what you want, you can just acrobat your way around anything I say and reply with "No, that's not really what I meant!" and make up more irrelevant analogies about black people and wheelchairs.

What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society. I don't know what it is, since you haven't said so yet. Using the term "Aspergians" appears to be a warning flag.

A warning flag of what? I use the term Aspergians because I don't care to say that I 'have' Asperger's, anymore than homosexuals 'have' homosexuality. I certainly don't care to be told I 'suffer' from Aspergers.

Let's try and pick apart the earlier remark:
"What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society."

Is that finally a response to the first of my questions arising from an earlier post? Does 'what I mean' answer 'what do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'? You think that my pointing out that civil rights have grown to encompass citizens that aren't white, male, straight and able-bodied is indicative of (and 'very clearly' indicative of) that I somehow think that I'm far more than reasonably entitled to something from society?

Perhaps you haven't really been reading my posts? It took me a while to grasp that you appeared to think I wanted a law that made people like other people (even though that's a very silly idea). I'd grant that would probably qualify as 'an excessive entitlement'...if anyone was asking for it. It is, however, very clearly indicative of your ignorance of Aspergers that you might believe that it was being called for. (Although I will note that many places now make hate speech illegal and many societies make certain words or attitudes socially unacceptable).

I note also that you asked why I'd assumed you were able-bodied when I referred to 'white, male, straight, able-bodied' people. You really shouldn't take these things so personally, but since you did I see that you didn't argue 'white, male and straight'. Do you understand how much you get from society? Do you really appreciate how much of what you take for granted has been hard-won (or is still to be won) by the rest of society? I'm sorry you feel the analogies were irrelevant. I'm not sure I can help you see what you're missing. There's none so blind...

As it happens, I think you're also making the mistake of imagining Rose & I are the same person. I haven't come here 'wanting' something (and certainly not some excessive entitlement), although I do still want some answers to all those questions you avoided. I'm not holding my breath...

In the meanwhile, since you asked, among the things I'd want would be a solution to my biggest problem: whatever the skills required for a job, what is likely to be tested is the ability to be interviewed (which I'm assured usually means 'demonstrating your similarity to the interviewer', something that Aspergians rarely achieve).

Practical solutions to that problem include the interview structure that was used for a job I excelled at some years back. All interviewees were asked the same questions and, crucially, got 15 mins with the written questions before the interview, so I could compose my answers. I aced the interview. I excelled at the work. I got no 'excessive entitlement' - unless you think I'm entitled to less than proper people, which does appear to be the case.

Puppycow
26th October 2010, 03:47 PM
So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

:mad:

"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

Pauliesonne
26th October 2010, 07:57 PM
I have aspergers but I wouldn't want personally to be cured because I'd worry about experiencing a lot of new feelings and activities.

But, I still would like a cure to be found for those who can be given the cure before they're born.

CelticRose
26th October 2010, 10:18 PM
In what ways does that not happen now?
Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

CelticRose
26th October 2010, 10:30 PM
And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?
Children, yes. Adults, not so much. The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.

CelticRose
26th October 2010, 10:37 PM
I can understand ramps etc for the wheelchair bound.
That is a failing of society to provide access to public places for people in wheel chairs.

As for respect and acceptance, well my parents taught me that those reactions from society, are earned and not just given, regardless of race, creed, belief or condition.

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

Now I understand that Aspies, at least those who are affected more severely, have problems with social interaction.
People should, if they are aware of the persons condition, react with compassion and understanding.

However, in many cases, society is not aware of this on first encountering the Aspie. So I think that a little understanding from both sides is in order.

The only way we can garner that understanding is through dialogue and interaction.:)
QFT. Especially the bit about "from both sides".

Unfortunately, many neurotypicals (i.e. so-called "normal" people) seem to be unwilling to meet autistic people halfway. I can't begin to count the times I've asked people to explain something to me because I was having difficulty understanding it, and not only were they unwilling to explain it to me, but they seemed insulted or annoyed that I had even asked the question.

CelticRose
26th October 2010, 11:10 PM
Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.
I'm sorry to hear that your nephew is so severely disabled that he cannot use a fork (that's sincere -- I'm not being sarcastic). However, are sure that's directly related to his autism? It sounds more like a comorbid, but I could be wrong.

You may want a cure, but does he? A question that commonly comes up on autistic forums is "If there were a cure, would you take it?" The majority respond "no", and that includes people who are completely nonverbal irl. There are people that do want a cure, and that's fine. The point is that it should be the autistic person's choice, not anyone else's.

Could you provide more infomation on this, especially the part about the abortions? Thanks.
Here's a project doing genetic research on autism: http://www.autismgenome.org/index.html.

Now, genetic research is generally a good thing, but there's fear among the autistic community that it might be misused, particularly by parents-to-be who have been misinformed by the media. The following site, albeit biased and overly dramatic, illustrates how many on the spectrum feel about the subject. http://ventura33.com/clock/

Uncayimmy
27th October 2010, 03:46 AM
Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.
Societies use acceptance and rejection to modify behavior. People who are different will be rejected. I'm not sure much can be done beyond tempering it to a degree, which is certainly a laudable goal. But the fact is that if someone for whatever reason (say) has trouble holding a conversation such as not knowing when it's their turn to talk on the phone, people are naturally not going to want to talk on the phone with that person.

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.
That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle. What you describe is something many people experience for a variety of reasons. Since you don't go around announcing that you have autism, then you are being treated differently because of your behavior rather than a label. If this is "who you are" then people are treating you according to their perceptions. I have a problem with people treating individuals based on expectations and stereotypes, but when it comes to actual behavior, that's another matter.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.
While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

technoextreme
27th October 2010, 05:43 AM
Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.
For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.
That's not an issue of society but an issue of your personal social circle.
Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.
While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.
Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

Uncayimmy
27th October 2010, 07:17 AM
Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.
In her case there is no label whatsoever. There is only behavior, and by her own description, people seem to treat her according to her behavior. She didn't say anything about society believing or not believing adults can have autism. I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?


Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.
You can take up the myth status with these folks:
http://autism.about.com/od/whatisautism/tp/topmyths.htm

To my knowledge violence is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and the correlations such as they are don't exist outside of other psychological disorders. Do you have evidence to support your statements?

Damien Evans
27th October 2010, 07:36 AM
"oppressed peoples"? Aspies?

I hate that word.

Damien Evans
27th October 2010, 07:39 AM
For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be mental retardation.

Uhhhh... It is an issue of society. A significant proportion of the population refuses to believe that adults can have autism.

Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.

I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

dirtywick
27th October 2010, 07:50 AM
I've never heard of violence having anything to do with any ASDs. Tantrums over what would seem to a normal person nothing in some more severely affected people yes, but not proper violence.

Tantrums from adults can be dangerous and violent.

But either way, I work directly with several people with autism and one of them gets proper violent pretty easily if you don't know how to work with her. If it's autism specifically that causes that behavior, or contributes to it, is hard to say as most of the people I work with have other disorders as well.

Dr. Keith
27th October 2010, 07:58 AM
Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.

If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

We have a friend whose child has ASD and we always remind our kids of this before they see him. It allows them to reset their gauge of what is rude and to understand why some of his actions would not be acceptable for them to mirror.

How else can we expect them to be patient with him when he does things that we would not allow them to do?

Also, people have a tendency to be patronizing toward people with autism. Personally, I often experience people speaking to me as if I'm an idiot child even though I'm 38 and possess above average intelligence. Since I haven't been diagnosed, I don't go around saying I'm autistic, btw, but people treat me poorly anyway. I've heard from autistic people with diagnoses that they're often treated the same way.

Then there's all the stuff that happens due to misinformation spread by the media. I've heard from autistic people that when they tell someone about their diagnosis, the other person will say something along the lines of "You can't be autistic -- you can talk." People assume that all autistic people are completely nonverbal, are savants, are mentally handicapped, and/or are dangerous.

jiggeryqua
27th October 2010, 01:36 PM
If you act in a way that seems rude to neurotypicals and don't let them know that you have ASD, then the reasonable thing for them to assume is that you are rude.

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

Skwinty
27th October 2010, 01:59 PM
When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'..

True, however your example relies on cultural differences in determing the perception of rudeness. Once you know and understand the cultural difference, then a reasonable person will lose the perception that the Ugandans are rude.

The same applies to when I meet an Aspergian and I am not aware of this fact, sure I will think they are rude.

If however, I was aware of the Aspergian condition, then I would not think they are rude and adjust my perception accordingly.

I'd venture to suggest that the reasonable thing to do when you feel someone is rude is to remind yourself that they are not you, and that they may not even have been exposed to the same forces or pressures that helped form you. Outside of your family, that will be a good few people. Outside of your neighbourhood and social circle that will a good few more. Outside of your country, more again, and outside of your neurotypicality, some more.

True again, the person who I perceive to be rude is not me and does not have the same social forces and pressures that I do, but if I do not know that they are Aspergian, I will think they are rude and avoid them.
I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

Pauliesonne
27th October 2010, 05:48 PM
I hate that word.

Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

:)

CelticRose
27th October 2010, 08:43 PM
Well, for one thing autistic people are often ostracized by society simply because they're different.
For someone your age the original diagnosis of autism would be would have been mental retardation instead of autism if you had been diagnosed as a child.
Fixed that for you.

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.
Its not a myth. Autism is a spectrum disorder. The ones that are complaining about people finding a cure are the ones who are lucky. They can function in society and managed to get through with a little bit of trouble. The ones that are violent are more towards the unable to function part of the spectrum.
Uh, no. There are likely about the same number of violent people among autistics as there are among neurotypicals. The misperception of autistic people as being violent is due to media bias and sensationalism. Whenever a crime is committed by an autistic person, the media make a big deal of it and focus on the criminal's autism as the "cause". Oftentimes, if a neurotypical had committed the same crime, the media wouldn't bother to cover it.

CelticRose
27th October 2010, 08:55 PM
I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?
No, but you'd think so the way the medical community and researchers act sometimes. :rolleyes: As I said above:
The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.
Just to be clear, I don't actually think that people don't believe that adults can have autism. More likely, they tend to forget (accidentally or on purpose) about the adults because they don't have the "cute factor" or parents with money that children do.

Damien Evans
27th October 2010, 09:30 PM
Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

:)

Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.

CelticRose
27th October 2010, 09:41 PM
Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.
Cheer up -- it's going away soon. When the DSM V comes out Asperger's will be lumped in with autism. :)

Jr1985
27th October 2010, 09:53 PM
In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?
Since you haven't been officially diagnosed, it's safe to assume that if you have AS, it is probably very mild. Not everyone is as lucky as you, a lot of people with autism have trouble getting jobs, so that they can contribute to society. They also experience bullying as a result of being different.

Perhaps if NTs would engage their frontal lobes to override their primitive animal instincts, that seem to activate when they encounter someone "different", autistics wouldn't have anything to whine about.

jiggeryqua
27th October 2010, 10:09 PM
I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

Well, the point was right there, but you seem to have missed it. You can adjust your expectations...in light of a mature awareness that 'rude' means 'not following the unwritten rules of my family/class/town/country'. You can adjust your responses. Indeed, to some degree you can make adjustments to your perception because you know there's plenty of things you do not know.

But let's get beyond that, for fear of reinforcing the erroneous ideas some posters appear to have - that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

Jr1985
27th October 2010, 10:14 PM
Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

Uncayimmy
27th October 2010, 11:02 PM
Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site (http://abaggs.blogspot.com/) offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

Damien Evans
28th October 2010, 03:37 AM
I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site (http://abaggs.blogspot.com/) offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

Skwinty
28th October 2010, 04:01 AM
... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is:

Were I to be in a public place and someone was rude to me specifically,and by rude I mean,

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core."

my initial reaction is to walk away as I don't actively seek confrontation.
That of course means I do not try to find a reason why the person is the way they are.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .

On the other hand, if I knew the person and I knew of their condition then I will certainly adjust my perception.:)

Uncayimmy
28th October 2010, 04:07 AM
How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

Why are you asking that question?

I wrote my statement very carefully. The requirement was "if there's a 'cure' available." JR1985 referred to someone who is not self-sufficient saying that she didn't want a "cure." If such a cure becomes available and she chooses not to partake, I'm saying that creates an ethical dilemma because in effect the person will be choosing to continue not to be self-sufficient.

Jr1985
28th October 2010, 08:14 AM
I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?
Well unfortunately I'm bit aware of any scientific study, but I can provide a quote from Tony Attwood, who is a psychologist specializing in AS.

"Tony's Perspective

From my clinical experience I consider that children and adults with Aspergers Syndrome have a different, not defective, way of thinking.

The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others.

The person values being creative rather than co-operative.

The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the “big picture”.

The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.

The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour.

However, the person with Aspergers Syndrome can have difficulty with the management and expression of emotions.

Children and adults with Aspergers syndrome may have levels of anxiety, sadness or anger that indicate a secondary mood disorder. There may also be problems expressing the degree of love and affection expected by others. Fortunately, we now have successful psychological treatment programs to help manage and express emotions."

From Tony Attwood's website.

I can say from personal experience that I, and other people with AS have difficulty lying. Some people can be brutally honest, e.g. Answering "yes" when asked "does this dress make me look fat?". I think it partially comes from not understanding social "rules".

Also, I don't like to say one thing, and mean another, or pretend to be nice to someone while back stabbing them.

I realise of course that this is just anecdotal, and therefore unreliable. But another positive trait that I do have evidence for is that we are less likely to see the purpose behind events in our lives. In other words, we are less likely to make up fairytales, such as "God did it" or "it was meant to be", to explain things.

www(dot)scientificamerican(dot)com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-less-likely-t-2010-05-29

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.
I wasn't aware of this, interesting...

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?
That thought had occurred to me after I made my post... and I would have to agree with you there. I'm not sure that it's fair for someone, who needs constant care from family, etc, to stay that way if there is an alternative. I imagine it puts immense pressure on her family, or whoever cares for her.

jiggeryqua
28th October 2010, 10:02 AM
That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .


Originally Posted by jiggeryqua
... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that. (my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

jiggeryqua
28th October 2010, 10:09 AM
I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aspergers+honesty)

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

Uncayimmy
28th October 2010, 11:16 AM
let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aspergers+honesty)

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.

Skwinty
28th October 2010, 11:44 AM
(my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

I don't think that Aspergian or autistics are trying to get legislation in place to force people to like them.

I agree and empathise with the issues sufferers face wrt employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc.

I do not have any personal experience with the condition, so I am ignorant of the symptons across the spectrum.

I would be hacked off if I suffered from the condition and couldn't get a job or access to public services because of it.

What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

Jr1985
28th October 2010, 05:57 PM
Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.
Well I found this -

Abstract
The present study explored the relations among lie-telling ability, false belief understanding, and verbal mental age. We found that children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), like typically developing children, can and do tell antisocial lies (to conceal a transgression) and white lies (in politeness settings). However, children with ASD were less able than typically developing children to cover up their initial lie; that is, children with ASD had difficulty exercising semantic leakage control—the ability to maintain consistency between their initial lie and subsequent statements. Furthermore, unlike in typically developing children, lie-telling ability in children with ASD was not found to be related to their false belief understanding. Future research should examine the underlying processes by which children with ASD tell lies.

Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee


So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person :D Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 03:07 AM
Therefore, I inquired.

Honest enquiry, from someone who wanted to know? Wouldn't that have involved some simple searching of your own? As opposed to 'Pfft, prove it' on an internet forum? I mean, if I really wanted to know something, I'd put some effort into finding out - and if I just wanted to hang on to my position in an argument, I'd insist that someone else did the work, with no certain knowledge that they would have received the communicated request and no earthly idea when they might respond. Maybe that's just me...

My apologies, by the way, it's really quite discourteous of me to respond to those parts of your posts quoted by others while keeping you on ignore.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 03:19 AM
What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

In addition to my earlier post regarding the assessment of applicants for job vacancies, with particular reference to interview processes, might I respectfully suggest 'education'? I'm not proposing that 'Autism Studies' squeeze the Literacy Hour out of the primary curriculum, it's hardly a priority, but those neurotypicals in this thread whose enquiries are honest might easily spare sufficient time to find all the information they require online.

I repeat that I didn't come here with a crusading purpose, a manifesto or an 'emphasis on excessive entitlement'. (What ever happened to TubbaBubba, by the way? It surely can't have taken this long to come up with answers to all the questions he prompted. I do hope he's alright.) I don't consider myself an expert on autism of any degree, I merely experience it. I certainly don't set myself up as any kind of spokesperson for anyone other than myself. Again, there are plenty of experts, and self-appointed autism spokespeople, online if you care to seek them out.

Aitch
29th October 2010, 03:40 AM
In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.


So, not in favour of a ******* Speak up for ******* Tourettes, you ******* *******! then? :duck:

Uncayimmy
29th October 2010, 05:25 AM
Well I found this -


Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee


Thanks again.

So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.
I've had some personal experience with those with Asperger's, and I find your experience consistent. It does pose a few interesting questions. I'm sure there's a spectrum for how comfortable people feel about lying. Since to my knowledge no one has ever been "cured" of autism, we really can't say that it's harder morally for them to lie since that's such a personal issue. For example, how can you and I compare our moral resistance?

From what I've read those with autism have difficulty lying and seem to recognize it. Therefore, it seems they are less likely to lie. Does that make them more honest? In one sense, yes. But in the sense of being honest in moral character, I don't think it does. There's a saying that goes, “The trite saying that honesty is the best policy has met with the just criticism that honesty is not policy. The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.” I think of an honest man as doing the right thing even when he knows he won't be caught.

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?
That very well could be. There's also the resistance to change, right?

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person :D Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.
To be fair, who's going to write articles and books portraying those with AS in a negative light? There's a natural tendency to look for the good, so we see articles telling us that without people with AS, we'd have missed out on technological advances (one article I read said we'd still be reading by candlelight). In principle I don't disagree with the larger premise. It's rare to find people highly successful in one area who are also well-balanced. An obsession about toasters is not all that productive. Obsession about music gives us Mozart.

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.
I certainly respect what you're saying. Loneliness and isolation can be very painful. Whatever hand you're dealt is the hand you have to play, so look for the best ways to play that hand. I could certainly see why someone would resist a change that would drastically change who they are and how they perceive the world.

This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome). I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going.

I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours?

The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice.

I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating.

Nichiro
29th October 2010, 06:02 AM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 06:06 AM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

Hang on, I'll ask my mother how she feels about this nonsense.

Jeff Corey
29th October 2010, 06:19 AM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

This is not just wrong, it's bordering on criminal. It's similar to Bettelheim's "refrigerator mother" nonsense.

technoextreme
29th October 2010, 06:21 AM
I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?

Think about this carefully and you will be able to answer your own question. Which group of people would have their sacred cow shattered if they were to accept the fact that there are adult autistic people?

Nichiro
29th October 2010, 06:29 AM
Hang on, I'll ask my mother how she feels about this nonsense.

why? The Truth pinches ya?

Nichiro
29th October 2010, 06:30 AM
This is not just wrong, it's bordering on criminal. It's similar to Bettelheim's "refrigerator mother" nonsense.

what's wrong? Leaving children in care of others or my posting a fact?

Robin
29th October 2010, 06:31 AM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.
As others have said, this is nonsense. I was never neglected or left under a stranger's care. I had a stay at home mother and a father who spent as much time with me as possible.

My children also had complete love and care through their growing years.

My kids' psychologist has said that this is one of the most harmful myths about autism.

Robin
29th October 2010, 06:33 AM
what's wrong? Leaving children in care of others or my posting a fact?
Have you posted any facts? Show me the evidence.

Jeff Corey
29th October 2010, 06:36 AM
what's wrong? Leaving children in care of others or my posting a fact?

You posted no facts whatsoever.

TubbaBlubba
29th October 2010, 06:58 AM
(What ever happened to TubbaBubba, by the way? It surely can't have taken this long to come up with answers to all the questions he prompted. I do hope he's alright.)

Well, since you asked, and I hate to be blunt, I don't find your posts to be worth the time it takes me to respond. I'm following the thread, however.

Alt+F4
29th October 2010, 07:02 AM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

In four years of posting at the JREF I have never read anything so unscientific, moronic, usless and stupid. The end.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 07:25 AM
Well, since you asked, and I hate to be blunt, I don't find your posts to be worth the time it takes me to respond. I'm following the thread, however.

Ah, you post nonsense, I ask you to explain it, or back it up, and you reply "I don't find your posts to be worth the time it takes me to respond". Got it ;) Welcome to a relatively exclusive club.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 07:29 AM
why? The Truth pinches ya?

No, but misuse of capitalisation irks me. Why, can you say, would my consulting my mother for her feelings on your feelings, when she is the one your feelings accuse, indicate that 'The Truth' pinched me?

Your 'feelings' are drastically and demonstrably wrong, by the way. I can see how you may have reached that conclusion, given that all orphaned and adopted children are autistic, but...oh no, hang on, that's not the case at all. You're wrong and you have no reason to believe you're right.

Nichiro
29th October 2010, 07:44 AM
Have you posted any facts? Show me the evidence.

Go to Eastern Asia and look for incidence of Autism in children. It is a miniscule number compared to west. Eastern world never leave their children in company of strangers.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/autism/stats-country.htm

http://www.autism-pdd.net/testdump/test18257.htm

Skwinty
29th October 2010, 07:50 AM
Go to Eastern Asia and look for incidence of Autism in children. It is a miniscule number compared to west. Eastern world never leave their children in company of strangers.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/autism/stats-country.htm

http://www.autism-pdd.net/testdump/test18257.htm

Good grief, Charly Brown!!!

Your first link has this plastered all over it.

WARNING! EXTRAPOLATION ONLY! NOT BASED ON COUNTRY-SPECIFIC DATA SOURCES. The following table attempts to extrapolate the above prevalence rate for Autism to the populations of various countries and regions. These prevalence extrapolations for Autism are only estimates, based on applying the prevalence rates from the US (or a similar country) to the population of other countries, and therefore may have very limited relevance to the actual prevalence of Autism in any region:
Read more at http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/autism/stats-country.htm?ktrack=kcplink#extrapwarning

Jeff Corey
29th October 2010, 08:07 AM
For those interested in learning about the genesis of such deluded thinking: http://autism.about.com/od/causesofautism/p/refrigerator.htm
"Today, it is generally agreed that autism is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors -- and unrelated to "cold mothering." Nevertheless, parents are still in the hot seat. While they are not accused of causing their children's autism, they are often expected to treat or discover treatments for it. Whether as therapists and advocates, or as researchers and medical decision-makers, parents are still in a position of overwhelming responsibility."

technoextreme
29th October 2010, 08:09 AM
why? The Truth pinches ya?
No. Arguments that dimwitted baboons like Jenny Mcarthy use kind of pinches at us.

Skwinty
29th October 2010, 08:20 AM
Thanks Jeff Corey. I will bookmark that link.

Jeff Corey
29th October 2010, 08:26 AM
Well, this is the JREF, right?

Jr1985
29th October 2010, 03:59 PM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.
Sorry but I'm afraid you're ideas are wrong, and very outdated. Anecdeotal and empirical evidence suggests autism is probably genetic.

I have heard from several sources, including the psychologist who diagnosed me, that parents of autistic children tend to show some autistic traits themselves. In fact, my psychologist began diagnosing adults with Asperger's Syndrome, after she realised that some of the parents, whose children she had diagnosed, probably had it.

Here's empirical evidence:

The autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) are a group of conditions characterized by impairments in reciprocal social interaction and communication, and the presence of restricted and repetitive behaviours1. Individuals with an ASD vary greatly in cognitive development, which can range from above average to intellectual disability2. Although ASDs are known to be highly heritable (~90%)3, the underlying genetic determinants are still largely unknown. Here we analysed the genome-wide characteristics of rare (<1% frequency) copy number variation in ASD using dense genotyping arrays. When comparing 996 ASD individuals of European ancestry to 1,287 matched controls, cases were found to carry a higher global burden of rare, genic copy number variants (CNVs) (1.19 fold, P = 0.012), especially so for loci previously implicated in either ASD and/or intellectual disability (1.69 fold, P = 3.4 × 10-4). Among the CNVs there were numerous de novo and inherited events, sometimes in combination in a given family, implicating many novel ASD genes such as SHANK2, SYNGAP1, DLGAP2 and the X-linked DDX53–PTCHD1 locus. We also discovered an enrichment of CNVs disrupting functional gene sets involved in cellular proliferation, projection and motility, and GTPase/Ras signalling. Our results reveal many new genetic and functional targets in ASD that may lead to final connected pathways.

Pinto, D et al. (2010) "Functional impact of global rare copy number variation in autism spectrum disorders" Nature 466:368-372

www(dot)nature(dot)com/nature/journal/v466/n7304/full/nature09146(dot)html


So there is a genetic link...

Jr1985
29th October 2010, 05:10 PM
To be fair, who's going to write articles and books portraying those with AS in a negative light? There's a natural tendency to look for the good, so we see articles telling us that without people with AS, we'd have missed out on technological advances (one article I read said we'd still be reading by candlelight). In principle I don't disagree with the larger premise. It's rare to find people highly successful in one area who are also well-balanced. An obsession about toasters is not all that productive. Obsession about music gives us Mozart.
Well in the book I have by Tony Attwood he certainly discusses all he negatives that come with it, it is a "disbility", afterall. But he also mentions the positives, and how "obsessions" could be turned into careers, etc.

Since the ASD's are probably genetic, and probably polygenic, perhaps some of the autistic genes, such as those that cause their obessional interests, are useful for science? So you don't necessarily have to have austism, but just some of it's traits, which are useful for science/art/whatever? Of course, if you have "too many" of the autistic alleles then you have extreme difficulty functioning.

I can't help thinking that if all these experts, who have spent years working with autistic people, keep saying that having autism (high-functioning) has some benefits, that there may be something to it? Even Hans Asperger, who obviously discovered AS, is quoted saying "It seems that for success in
science or art a dash of autism is essential." Unfortunately I can't find the original source, but I will try... I can only find bits and pieces of his translated work.


This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

....


Funny you should mention DSPS because I'm convinced I have it too. When I'm not working/studying, I seem to automatically revert to staying up really late and waking in the late morning/early afternoon. I think perhaps it shows how our culture and society can give rise to "disorders". We have decided that you must work between 8am-5pm (for example), so anyone who doesn't fit that pattern is "lazy" or "disordered". Maybe "DSPS" is a normal part of human diversity, and may have an evolutionary advantage, e.g. maybe the "night owls" were watchmen during our cave dwelling days?

I think this also applies to autism to some degree, since the recruitment policy of some employers seems to value your ability to do well in an interview, over your ability to do the job. Also, the whole "it's who you know, not what you now". Someone with an ASD could be brilliant at their job, but because of their poor social skills they do badly at interviews, so they have trouble finding a job. If employers placed job skills above social skills maybe people with ASD's wouldn't have this problem, and could actually contribute more to society.

Also, an example for how culture/society changing has improved the lives of autistics is the internet. It has been a great advantage to autistics, since we can communicate and form relationships online.

Employers are supposed to make reasonable adjustments, so I don't think asking for your hours to be changed slightly is the much of a deal, neither is asking for some understanding/assistance during interviews. E.g. understanding that the interviewee has poor eye contact because they have autism, not because they are untrustworthy. On the other hand, attempting to get employed and keep your job as as a salesman may be unreasonable..?

I know someone with AS, who managed to get a job, but had difficulties performing well because different people kept giving him different instructions on how to do something. He tried to explain that he needed clear instructions on how to do something. An autistic charity also offered to provide free training on ASD's and offer advice on how to assist someone with autism. The employer flat out refused to take any training or make any adjustments and continued to reprimand him until he left. To me that seems unfair as they were unwilling to even try to help. Also, maybe deciding on a single set of intructions would benefit everyone, as it would be much clearer how to do something?

Alt+F4
29th October 2010, 06:14 PM
Anecdeotal and empirical evidence suggests autism is probably genetic.

I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children with autism are boys.

jiggeryqua
29th October 2010, 06:42 PM
I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children with autism are boys.

That used to be the prevailing opinion, though recently it has been suggested that, due to gender differences in socialisation, autistic spectrum disorders were simply going undiagnosed in girls. I'll see if I can find a citation for that - as soon as you find one for yours :P

CelticRose
29th October 2010, 09:36 PM
This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome). I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going.

I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours?

The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice.

I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating.
Thanks for this post, UncaYimmy. That has to be one of the most understanding posts I've ever seen from a non-autistic person. And thanks for listening and making an effort to understand. That's more than most people do.

CelticRose
29th October 2010, 09:41 PM
I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children diagnosed with autism are boys.
Fixed that for you.

It used to be believed that autism was strictly confined to males, but now the medical community has come to realize that due to the inherent social differences between males and females, women with autism "present" differently.

Unfortunately, many doctors either still believe that only males can be autistic or haven't been trained to recognize autism in females, so females are often misdiagnosed.

Damien Evans
29th October 2010, 10:36 PM
Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

That's not even wrong.

LukeB
30th October 2010, 12:53 AM
I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

Damien Evans
30th October 2010, 04:01 AM
I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

Well, you certainly have Jackass down pat.

Jr1985
30th October 2010, 04:50 AM
Fixed that for you.

It used to be believed that autism was strictly confined to males, but now the medical community has come to realize that due to the inherent social differences between males and females, women with autism "present" differently.

Unfortunately, many doctors either still believe that only males can be autistic or haven't been trained to recognize autism in females, so females are often misdiagnosed.
This.

Also, maybe autism is x-linked, like colour blindness?

Another possibility is that some researchers, such as Simon Baron-Cohen, think autism is a form of "extreme maleness". So males, being male, are more likely to show extreme maleness?

Philosaur
1st November 2010, 06:40 AM
I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

I'll give a 4/10 for effort and a 2/10 for effectiveness. Trolling takes practice, subtlety, and creativity.

To be honest, I don't think you have what it takes.

Mark6
2nd November 2010, 11:00 AM
If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against, i.e., those who assume that we can just "get over ourselves" and act like everyone else. We can't. For example, no amount of "attitude adjustment" is going to enable me to be able to follow a conversation when there are more than 2 other people involved.

BTW, I am no "whiny parasite". I have a job, and I do not receive any kind of disability funding. I manage to pay my own way even though I am consistently underemployed and have trouble keeping a job because a) I am incapable of making social chitchat, which seems to be more important to employers than doing the actual job, and b) I have so much difficulty communicating with so-called "normal" people that it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages even though we both speak English. Yet when I lose yet another job I don't moan that I'm being "oppressed" -- I pick myself up and go find another job.

So what exactly do you intend to say on your "Asperger speak out Day"?

I am an Aspie too. I too cannot follow a conversation with more than two people (or a play, for that matter -- theater is utterly wasted on me), and politically I almost never agree with Bob Blaylock, but in this case I side with him. I am different, but it does not make me oppressed. At least, I do not feel oppressed. I know there are things in life I can't do -- at least not the way neurotypical people do them, -- but I found ways to compensate. If anyone, I want to speak to other Aspies -- to share coping startegies I had learned. And I have.

Uncayimmy
2nd November 2010, 02:35 PM
So what exactly do you intend to say on your "Asperger speak out Day"?

I am an Aspie too. I too cannot follow a conversation with more than two people (or a play, for that matter -- theater is utterly wasted on me), and politically I almost never agree with Bob Blaylock, but in this case I side with him. I am different, but it does not make me oppressed. At least, I do not feel oppressed. I know there are things in life I can't do -- at least not the way neurotypical people do them, -- but I found ways to compensate. If anyone, I want to speak to other Aspies -- to share coping startegies I had learned. And I have.

I don't want to bring this thread too far astray, but there's a question I've been meaning to ask. I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances :D, but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.

Jr1985
2nd November 2010, 06:14 PM
I don't want to bring this thread too far astray, but there's a question I've been meaning to ask. I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances :D, but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.
Well I think it depends on the situation. If I said something seemingly innocent, and someone was really offended by it, then I would apologise and try to explain what I meant. I would also learn from the situation that the statement was offensive and wouldn't say it again.

On the other hand, sometimes a persons reaction seem irrational, like being offended at the truth (I don't mean calling someone fat), such as "evolution is established as fact, whereas creationism is hokum". Or some people can detect that I am "odd" and may avoid me simply for being "different". In these two cases, I don't really stop behaving that way, as I think the problem lies with the other person.

I can also come across as being a bit blunt sometimes, and some people may be offended. Possibly because if an NT is blunt, it's becasue they may be intentionally trying to offend someone? I suppose I try to tone this down, as well as other "odd" behaviours, and make the correct amount of eye contact, etc. But having to constantly act "normal" at work, etc can be really exhausting, so sometimes I just say "to hell with it" and act as weird and random as I like.

Basically, I think it works both ways. So people with AS should be willing to reign in their behaviour a little - making sure they shower, don't tell people they are fat, don't interrupt people, etc. But NT's should be willing to meet us half way, and accept that if someone with AS isn't making the right amount of eye contact it's because it's uncomfortable, not because they are lying (for instance).

I think some people with AS may think that some NT behaviour can seem silly and irrational, yet they are the ones being told to change their bahaviour, so why should they? Or what makes NT behaviour appropriate and Aspie behaviour inappropriate, just because more people are NT? My view on that is "when in Rome".

CelticRose
2nd November 2010, 07:34 PM
I don't want to bring this thread too far astray...The boycott was yesterday (and seems to have been largely ignored -- yay!), so let the thread go where it will. :)

I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances :D, but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.
Personally, if someone tells me that my behavior is incorrect and is willing to explain to me exactly how it is incorrect and how I should behave in the future, then I'm usually willing to correct my behavior provided that my principles won't be violated by doing so.

The problem is usually that people are unwilling to a) tell me that I'm doing something wrong and b) help me to understand the situation. Try as I might, I can't read minds and I can't learn from my mistakes if I don't know that I'm making them in the first place.

I do tend to do my own thing -- see my signature :p -- but I also strive to create a balance between being myself and being socially acceptable, at least in public. As Jr1985 said, it can be exhausting to act "normal" and deal with social situations. When I'm home, I drop the act entirely.

Father Dagon
3rd November 2010, 03:21 AM
While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.Oh, the dangerous myth is kinda old. The latest myth however is so new that few people have heard about it. It stems from the film Simple Simon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1686313/) and says that autisic people are silly dorks.When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.But did the asian immigrants adapt? Thomas Sowell points out in White Liberals and Black Rednecks that the irish immigrants was "uncivilized" so the catholic church had to "civilize" them.

jiggeryqua
3rd November 2010, 03:41 AM
But did the asian immigrants adapt?

Well I can't speak for every single one of them...but I'd hope that everyone involved adapted to the situation. An expectation that immigrants will 'adapt' to an unmoving culture (that, of course, is constantly adapting itself) seems a little unsettling to me, though that may not have been what you meant.

Of course, the analogy falls apart with aspergians, it's not one culture meeting another, it's more like the slow, steady progress of, for example, lobby groups for blind and partially-sighted people, who have obliged local councils in the UK to provide tactile paving signals (indicating dropped kerbs and such) but are still struggling for a national standard which would allow them to move around the country as confidently as sighted people.

Uncayimmy
3rd November 2010, 04:20 AM
Oh, the dangerous myth is kinda old. The latest myth however is so new that few people have heard about it. It stems from the film Simple Simon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1686313/) and says that autisic people are silly dorks.
In regards to the dangerous myth, I guess it involves in what circles you travel. I never heard it. As I said, one person I know with Asperger's is a spokesman who gives presentations for a large west coast city's activist group. I've heard a lot about it from him, but I've never heard him cite the dangerous one before.

As for the movie, I think that's a result a people being overly sensitive. It's just a movie. I watched countless episodes of Leave it to Beaver, but I never once expected my wife to bring me a glass of lemonade while I mowed the lawn or greet me at the door wearing a dress and jewelry.

Mark6
3rd November 2010, 05:40 AM
So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?
Pretty much what Jr1985 and Celtic Rose said. I do my best to correct my behaviour. Often it means consciously doing what NT people do unconsciously, like maintain eye contact. If for some reason I fail, that's life. I never get aggressive and into denial, the way your musician friend seems to.

Mark6
3rd November 2010, 05:41 AM
When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime),
Since when is Uganda in Asia?

Professor Yaffle
3rd November 2010, 05:55 AM
Since when is Uganda in Asia?

I don't know whether you are being facecious, or you are genuinely unaware of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Asians_from_Uganda

Mark6
3rd November 2010, 05:59 AM
I don't know whether you are being facecious, or you are genuinely unaware of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Asians_from_Uganda
Both. I never heard of it before, but when I saw jiggeryqua's post I immediately figured out what she meant. But could not resist making a joke.

More seriously:
When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.
Don't know about Britain, but I think Americans are more forgiving of social gaffes by immigrants -- as long as the immigrant is clearly trying to learn, -- than of social gaffes due to "being different". I was lucky in having emigrated at the age of 14 -- many of my blunders people chalked up to me being from another culture. Little did they know that in Russia I would have fared far worse.

jiggeryqua
3rd November 2010, 08:05 AM
Don't know about Britain, but I think Americans are more forgiving of social gaffes by immigrants -- as long as the immigrant is clearly trying to learn, -- than of social gaffes due to "being different". I was lucky in having emigrated at the age of 14 -- many of my blunders people chalked up to me being from another culture. Little did they know that in Russia I would have fared far worse.

I grew up as an immigrant, and rationalised a lot of my differences as merely cultural. Then I moved back to my 'home' country. That was a sharp lesson...it was me after all...

Both. I never heard of it before, but when I saw jiggeryqua's post I immediately figured out what she meant. But could not resist making a joke.

Not the first time I've been taken for a woman online, and though some women still attempt to demean men by ascribing feminine traits to them, I take no offence :)

dirtywick
3rd November 2010, 08:12 AM
Not the first time I've been taken for a woman online, and though some women still attempt to demean men by ascribing feminine traits to them, I take no offence :)

Because your handle ends in the letter "a".

jiggeryqua
3rd November 2010, 10:31 AM
Because your handle ends in the letter "a".

Well it used to happen when I was 'jiggerypokery' too. I wonder if Ezra Pound had the same problem? It may be why Josh Groban doesn't go by 'Joshua'.

ETA: Oooh, ooh, also: Jabba the Hut. Definitely male.