Semantics and the challenge

[thaiboxerken]

Anyone else notice that challengers, or would be challengers often end up trying to win the million with semantics and whining?

I remember one guy trying to claim the million because he sent in a picture of a "demon" coming out of the twin towers attacks. He had a crappy picture and simply tried bitching the million out of Randi. It's amazing, isn't it? Do these idiots actually think that Randi will give up his million based on such retarded semantics?

[apoger]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Anyone else notice that challengers, or would be challengers often end up trying to win the million with semantics and whining?



I've noticed.

Also in similar style they try to use the same semantic games to attempt to show that the challenge cannot be won.

It seems that many of the more credulous forum participants who have little evidence to back their claims, instead feel the need to attempt to redefine words in order to validate their world view.

Similarly we have those that attempt to trump science/skepticism with philosophy. Lacking evidence they attempt to validate their world view by redefining reality.

Agreement on clear language and philosophical frame of reference is poison to these people. They can only maintain their incoherent ideas by muddying the waters.


Clarity and evidence is "kryptonite" for the credulous.

[thaiboxerken]

Yes, and if you catch them playing the semantic game, they get angry. A good example is in the Kyoshou thread.

[GroundStrength]

No, I'm not angry you are just a dick.;) :D :p :)

[GroundStrength]

As far as semantics goes you are a liar if you are referring to me. I defy you to go back and post a link to where I have changed what I have been saying.

BTW here is what I have been saying


Origianlly Posted by GroundStrength
These are not touches. That much is misleading, it was a hook to get peoples attention. They will work with light force, but there still must be force involved. Usually about the force that a 10 year old boy can strike with.

Origianlly Posted by GroundStrength
There are three points on the forehead that are struck all at once using a cupped palm. They should be struck 45 degrees in and down towards lower/opposite side of the skull.
The three points form a V. The bottom of the V (Gall Bladder-14) is located one-fingers width above the eyebrow directly in line with the pupil. The second point (GB-15)is located in the hairline directly inline with GB-14.
The third point is located in the hairline two finger widths towards the ear.

The final point is located on the jawline directly under the corner of the mouth (on both sides, all points mirror on the left and right sides of the body).

Both sides of the jaw are grabbed between the thumb and index finger. Then the other hand is cupped and the head is struck. If the jaw is grabbed lightly then the head shot is harder. If the jaw is grabbed forecfully then the
headshot is lighter (yin/yang).

Origianlly Posted by GroundStrength
KO's can be caused by strikes or locks, but work best when a strike and locks are used in combination.

From Here (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32517)



Origianlly Posted by GroundStrength
dont like the points used for diagnosis. I am starting a thread on Kyusho Jutsu and TCM to avoid hijackinh this one. BTW there are no pinches, these are light force strikes or joint manipulations.

From Here (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32508)

TBK, you are a pitiful excuse for a skeptic (maybe you thought that the pruning would get rid of the EVIDENCE so that you could make your statements about my 'moving the goal posts' with impunity. Sorry you can't)

[thaiboxerken]

TBK, you are a pitiful excuse for a skeptic (maybe you thought that the pruning would get rid of the EVIDENCE so that you could make your statements about my 'moving the goal posts' with impunity. Sorry you can't)

Hardly, people here called you on your touch KO claim. Now you have are saying it was just a hook. Well if your big claim is that you can KO people by hitting them, but not very hard, then I'll agree that you probably can. There is nothing paranormal about that. You've moved your claimed ability into one that won't be accepted as a paranormal claim. Congrats.

You have defeated yourself. People do not KO other people by touch alone.

[apoger]

Let me get this straight...

Your claim is that you can knock out someone by grabbing their jaw in one hand, and then hitting the targets forehead with the other hand, using approximately the striking power of a 10 year old boy?

While a boy of ten years is no match for an adults strength, in the context of head blows it's significant.

In what way can you possibly construe this ability as supernatural?

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by apoger
Let me get this straight...

Your claim is that you can knock out someone by grabbing their jaw in one hand, and then hitting the targets forehead with the other hand, using approximately the striking power of a 10 year old boy?

While a boy of ten years is no match for an adults strength, in the context of head blows it's significant.

In what way can you possibly construe this ability as supernatural?

I can do it any number of ways that don't involve the head, and I've never said (again being misrepresented by TBK ) that the reasons for it working
were paranornal. Here is what I have been saying...

The Traditional Chinese Medicine Model (That includes Five Element theory, yin-yang theory, quadrant theory and the points themselves) is a valid model for attacking the body to cause KO's. This does not have to be done on the head. The arms, legs and or torso will work just as well. James Randi has stated in his writings (be it in Swift or his encyclopedia) that the
TCM model and TCM in general are woo. My claim is that he is incorrect in that assumption.

Now hopefully that is large enough, and clear enough for you guys to see and read.

TBK is correct you will not KO anyone by touching them and I have never said that it could be done. You will not KO anyone with your chi/ki/qi or whatever.

TBK,

Again please provide evidence (link to the post) of my ever posting that it could be done with a touch or stop misrepresenting what I have said. If you can't then it proves my point that you are a poor skeptic and must skew arguements in order to even have something to post.

Thanks

[thaiboxerken]

Using a TCM model to do the mundane is not paranormal. You can claim to use extraterrestial techniques to kick a person in the head in order to knock people out.......... it is still just a kick to the head. You haven't offered Randi or anyone else a valid thing to test.

[apoger]

>James Randi has stated in his writings (be it in Swift or his encyclopedia) that the TCM model and TCM in general are woo. My claim is that he is incorrect in that assumption.


Do you have any way of providing evidence outside of knocking people out? This is a dangerous method for experimentation, and may be inconclusive due to mundane nature of knocking people out via striking them. Certainly if this Traditional Chinese Medicine Model is valid, there is another simpler and safer way that you could demonstrate it...

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Using a TCM model to do the mundane is not paranormal. You can claim to use extraterrestial techniques to kick a person in the head in order to knock people out.......... it is still just a kick to the head. You haven't offered Randi or anyone else a valid thing to test.

Let's see if I can go thru this one last time (Kenny seems to be a little slow on the uptake)

Meridians = Woo
Acupuncture Points = Woo
Five Element theory = woo
Cycles of energy = woo

If I manipulate these points at the locations described by the TCM model in accordance with one of the cycles of energy
and the person passes out then the model is valid. Randi himself has stated that he doesn't care about HOW or WHY something works
just that it does. I agree that we should stay away from the head (as it is too obvious a target), but the rest of the body is fair game.

Apoger,

There are possibly ways to do it. I can cause consistant reactions that are not KO's.

For example...(oh yeah, something else that that great bastion of skepticism and logic TBK doubts:rub: )

Cross-Extensor-Relfex-Action - I allow people to attempt to hit me in the face and rely on this to be able to stay pretty. It involves a finger and two points. The finger lock minus the points can be fought by the uke. Once the points are used there is no ability to resist. When a small movement (think small circle jujutsu) is applied the uke's opposite are flies backward and is not able to get the free strike. I always allow the strike to begin before I initiate the 'lock'.

[apoger]

>There are possibly ways to do it. I can cause consistant reactions that are not KO's.

There are many reactions that are not KO's.
How would the reaction you are creating provide evidence for the validity of TCM?




>For example...
>Cross-Extensor-Relfex-Action - I allow people to attempt to hit me in the face and rely on this to be able to stay pretty. It involves a finger and two points.

You "rely on this" and it "involves a finger and two points".
That's some information, but not enough for me to understand what you are describing. Is this a counter strike? A grapple? An attempt to unbalance your opponent in some way?

Furthermore in what way would this "Cross-Extensor-Relfex-Action" validate TCM and allow you to claim the prize?

[thaiboxerken]

You can come up with a five-element theory on how to pull the trigger on a gun.........but all you're still doing is pulling the trigger on a gun. The TCM model might work, but not because there really are meridian points and chi flowing through the body. You can push two meridian points and strike a person in the head to knock them out, or you can just strike them in the head to knock them out.

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
You can come up with a five-element theory on how to pull the trigger on a gun.........but all you're still doing is pulling the trigger on a gun. The TCM model might work, but not because there really are meridian points and chi flowing through the body. You can push two meridian points and strike a person in the head to knock them out, or you can just strike them in the head to knock them out.

Or I can hit you on the arm and knock you out.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by GroundStrength


Or I can hit you on the arm and knock you out.

With your definitions of KO being so vague, I don't doubt it. Others would call it shock though.

[Kopji]

I'd like to volunteer to be knocked out by a touch.

Gee... I feel a little woozy even touching the display where the posts are. Room feels dizzy...

(Y'all can contact me after collecting the million to settle up...)

I don't see how this could be a really objective test without having him try and knock Randi out...

Ow stop already! enough!

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by GroundStrength


Let's see if I can go thru this one last time (Kenny seems to be a little slow on the uptake)

Meridians = Woo
Acupuncture Points = Woo
Five Element theory = woo
Cycles of energy = woo

If I manipulate these points at the locations described by the TCM model in accordance with one of the cycles of energy
and the person passes out then the model is valid.

I'm a bit confused now. When I think about Chinese medicine, I think of ways of healing. Isn't acupuncture to do with sticking needles in these points and supposedly having beneficial effects? I've never heard it claimed that one of the benefits of medicine is being able to knock people out.

Has Randi ever denied that the body has vulnerable areas, or that you can knock someone out if you know where to hit them?

[Dancing David]

In AiKiDo there are a couple of pain induction techniques which involve moderate touch and pressure, they also use momentum and torque to control.

But having been uke when someone was demonstrating the techniques involving nerve presure on the facial and cranial nerves, I have to say that they are very effective (even though they are not part of AiKiDo). I have been thrown by one of these techniques when a very light presure was applied to one of my facial nerves.

It is rather exciting, not paranormal, but part of 'chinese' martial arts.

Not as painful as an arm lock yonkyo style because the presurre is relieved as soon as you react and move away. Which if you are charging someone and they snap your head back, you will fall.

[asthmatic camel]

GroundStrength, you have no need to use any physical force in order to render one unconscious. Merely continue to post your pathetic drivel, that does the job nicely

[thaiboxerken]

Actually, I think Groundstrength is saying that he can KO people by using physical force. For some reason, he has to throw lots of woo-woo nonsense into his explanation of how it works. Basically, he's trying to claim the million dollars based on his errant explanations of physics and anatomy.