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Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:48 AM
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 11:05 AM
So, was I wrong?

Yes, totally, instead of using your evil powers to beguile and philosophise you would have saved time by using them to seduce. That way anytime in the future you could have shut her up by using your evil power of manipulation by threatening to tell her friends thats she found atheists sexually attractive
:degrin:

Bishadi
31st October 2010, 11:06 AM
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

i thought it was cute too

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.

in a sense that is true. As an atheist is usually a label given to another by a theist.

My pun is that an atheist is usually and evolved theist.


She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

Funny as it seems to me the best way to observe an anti-christ is to watch a christian; they will lie to believe.

Read Matt 16:20

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

cute.... now read John 14:30.... to get jesus' perspective

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?


nope

as many will be upset to find what they believed is true is actually poppy cop.

Which means, to be honest, will just ruin the day of many.

But think in my eyes, if there is no such thing as magic and the ends times were actually upon this earth, when a women brings here dying child to your feet and asked for magic to fix the child, who is going to be responsible for telling that woman magic is not the answer, nor will magic fix anything?

ie.... the religious will pay for futhering lies (one way or another)



To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone? not in my eyes.....

i see the 2 as married as well.

To me, i believe it came from the lies that 'we the people' are not responsible for our actions. ie... that each of us is incapable of either good or bad, by choice. (that basis of separating mankind from his own personal responsibilities is what divided many from being responsible for their actions)

So to observe in the fashion that satan and christians are kind of married is evidenced in more ways than you can imagine.

ie... simply to false witness, is evil (in a real sense)

TimCallahan
31st October 2010, 11:15 AM
To the degree that there are actually Satanists, yes, they would have to come from a Christian context and culture, but wouldn't necessarily have even originally been Christians. The important thing about Satanists, of whatever stripe, is that they are specifically reacting against Christianity.

You might point out to your friend that it is only in the Christian scriptures that "Satan" is even a name. In the Hebrew scriptures, this personage is referred to as ha satan, meaning "the adversary" or "the accuser." He was, in essence, God's prosecutor, rather than his enemy. In the Book of Enoch, written ca. 160 BCE, an angelic revolt is led by Shemhazi. One of the notable rebel angels is Azazel. Satan is not mentioned, because, even at that comparatively late date, he was still ha satan, God's prosecutor.

Craig4
31st October 2010, 11:18 AM
I'm not sure how many times people I thought to be otherwise intelligent have asked if I worshiped the Devil when they learned I was an atheist. I should be used to it by now but my jaw always drops when I get asked that. Sure, sound bite fundamentalists will give you that but I don't expect thought from them. These would be educated people who should have the ability to reason through that it's hard to worship someone you don't believe in. Is this really the level of mainstream discussion we've reached on the topic of religion?

Marduk
31st October 2010, 11:23 AM
In the Book of Enoch, written ca. 160 BCE, an angelic revolt is led by Shemhazi. One of the notable rebel angels is Azazel. Satan is not mentioned, because, even at that comparatively late date, he was still ha satan, God's prosecutor.

He's called Satanail in 2 Enoch, which is around 350 years younger, thats the period of Satans creation right there, christianity invented him from half understood beliefs they had plagiarised in the same way that the old testament was created from the mythology of older cultures
nothing new under the sun is there
:D
I'm not sure how many times people I thought to be otherwise intelligent have asked if I worshiped the Devil when they learned I was an atheist.

Silly silly, if theyd asked how many babes you'd eaten that week, at least you could have come up with a humourous retort
:D

Brattus
31st October 2010, 11:31 AM
Yes, totally, instead of using your evil powers to beguile and philosophise you would have saved time by using them to seduce. That way anytime in the future you could have shut her up by using your evil power of manipulation by threatening to tell her friends thats she found atheists sexually attractive
:degrin:

You caught me. I admit I was maintaining her friendship in hopes of getting a little sumthin sumthin.
She has got nice hooters!

But, she asked me point blank what my beliefs are.
I may be an evil Satan worshiper but I'm not a liar.
So I told her.

Now I'm not gonna be gettin' none o' that!

Marduk
31st October 2010, 11:32 AM
You caught me. I admit I was maintaining her friendship in hopes of getting a little sumthin sumthin.
She has got nice hooters!

But, she asked me point blank what my beliefs are.
I may be an evil Satan worshiper but I'm not a liar.
So I told her.

Now I'm not gonna be gettin' none o' that!

pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.
:D
Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

Brattus
31st October 2010, 11:44 AM
pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.
:D
Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

LOL! You have caught me once again. I talk a good game but I could never do that.

Just because I don't share her or others religious beliefs does not mean I don't respect their right to maintain whatever world view they choose.

I have always been weak that way.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 11:46 AM
LOL! You have caught me once again. I talk a good game but I could never do that.

Just because I don't share her or others religious beliefs does not mean I don't respect their right to maintain whatever world view they choose.

I have always been weak that way.

what about her sister ?
:D

Brattus
31st October 2010, 11:51 AM
what about her sister ?
:D

LOL! I like the way you think!

The Norseman
31st October 2010, 12:01 PM
what about her sister ?
:D

I find your ideas interesting and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 12:01 PM
To the degree that there are actually Satanists, yes, they would have to come from a Christian context and culture, but wouldn't necessarily have even originally been Christians. The important thing about Satanists, of whatever stripe, is that they are specifically reacting against Christianity

But it's all the same thing though right?
For them to believe in Satan they HAVE to believe in the Christian God.
To believe in the Christian God that would make them Christians.

Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

TubbaBlubba
31st October 2010, 12:04 PM
"You showed me Jesus, it's time for me to show you something."

Didaktylos
31st October 2010, 12:13 PM
pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.
:D
Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

I found Jesus once - he'd slipped down behind the sofa cushions, along with a couple of pens, about 20 pence in assorted copper change, half a comb and a rather dessicated apple core.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 12:21 PM
But it's all the same thing though right?
For them to believe in Satan they HAVE to believe in the Christian God.
To believe in the Christian God that would make them Christians.

Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

nope, the most well known and publicised satanists (LaVeyan) are also Atheists, Agnostics and Apatheists

Many groups just regard the name "Satan" as an easily identifiable figurehead around which to worship the nature of satan which the bible only mentions because he really existed, they tend to therefore regard the rest of Judaeo christianity as deluded
:D

Brattus
31st October 2010, 02:10 PM
"You showed me Jesus, it's time for me to show you something."

That's when she answers back. "OH God! OH God! OH God!"




Or so I would like to think.

MG1962
31st October 2010, 02:31 PM
Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

No they would be Satanist - Christian means follower of Christ. Buddhist is a follower of the teachings of Buddah, so and so forth.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 02:45 PM
nope, the most well known and publicised satanists (LaVeyan) are also Atheists, Agnostics and Apatheists

Many groups just regard the name "Satan" as an easily identifiable figurehead around which to worship the nature of satan which the bible only mentions because he really existed, they tend to therefore regard the rest of Judaeo christianity as deluded
:D

Well Marduk from reading some of your previous post I know you know what you're talking about here but I still don't get it.

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

But rather to devote ones life and serve what is believed to be a real deity.

So to worship Satan as a Satan worshiper would do they would need to believe that Satan is a real deity that is part of the real world.
So if they believe Satan is real then how could they not believe in the Christian God?

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 02:50 PM
No they would be Satanist - Christian means follower of Christ. Buddhist is a follower of the teachings of Buddah, so and so forth.

Oh I see. OK. I never thought of that. Thanks! But a Satanist would still get their water from the same well as a Christian so to speak.

Madalch
31st October 2010, 03:48 PM
That's when she answers back. "OH God! OH God! OH God!...


"...that's the cutest little thing I've ever seen!"

Brattus
31st October 2010, 03:56 PM
"...that's the cutest little thing I've ever seen!"

Who told you about that? They said they were laughing because they just thought of a joke!
It's not that small! OK, sure I gotta see which hair the water comes out of before I can find it. But.....that's normal right?

I'm normal damn it!

Stop looking at me! Stop looking at me! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHH!

Xephyr
31st October 2010, 04:08 PM
I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

They just can't seem to get their brains around that one.

A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 04:12 PM
I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

oh boy are you single, or just in the wrong thread
:D

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 04:21 PM
I have a friend who doesn't believe in god but who sacrifices rabbits and then makes gloves and pants from the hides which he sells on e-bay, but then again maybe he's not a real satanist because he didn't want to go see Saw 3D yesterday.

Fnord
31st October 2010, 04:31 PM
... to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

Cainkane1
31st October 2010, 04:42 PM
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.
The same thing happened to me when I disagreed with a friend about America being a Christian country. Goodbye friend. No big loss.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 04:44 PM
I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.
http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/~articles/t/tiamat.html
Some think Tiamat is a prototype of Satan. In this instance one might speculate that those thinking this might be over influenced by a Christian background. This comment emerges because of another ending of this myth: This is a paradoxical creation myth, even though the chaos-monster was slain and dismembered she remained the body of the universe and was manifest through her children, the gods and goddesses from whom Bel-Marduk received homage. Within this ending there occurs a transformation of evil to good; Tiamat is not entirely stripped of her good attributes, but rather they come out in her children. Perhaps this is why by some Marduk is considered a lord of magic.

In an evolutionary view of Tiamat those who favor the archetypal Satanic view of this primordial deity may be more correct. Initially her furor began with the murder of Apsu and grew fueled by the desire for revenge. Since she was a creator sea-dragon her surviving attributes would be inherited by her children and their children. Even though the deities paid homage to Marduk after he defeated her in their cosmic battle, the future generations might not give him and his successors such homage. The survival instinct of their paternal grandmother resides within them. Coupled with this is the belief that the blood of her second Kingu was used in creating humanity. Therefore her survival characteristics also survive in humanity and will naturally keep reappearing. This has been seen in Lilith and her children including Kali and Hecate. Such children through succubi and incubi copulated with mankind, generating those of 'true' free will and self-determination and self-control; those dancing to their own music, rebels.
When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN
;)

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 04:52 PM
http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/~articles/t/tiamat.html

When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN
;)


Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html

Marduk
31st October 2010, 04:55 PM
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html

Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible
;)

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 05:21 PM
Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible
;)


Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.

It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 05:26 PM
Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S
they apparently don't agree with you
and neither does the link you posted earlier
Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham.
:confused:
as I stated correctly earlier, he may not have started off as a personal entity, but he certainly became one
do you understand what the addition of "ha" to "satan" signifies ?
It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.
what ?
Angels were added to Jewish theology during the babylonian diaspora
Devils and demons were believed in before the diaspora and spirits have always been a tenet of Jewish faith
Rabbinical demonology has three classes of demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the shedim, the mazziḳim ("harmers"), and the ruḥin ("spirits"). Besides these there were lilin ("night spirits"), ṭelane ("shade", or "evening spirits"), ṭiharire ("midday spirits"), and ẓafrire ("morning spirits"), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake" (Targ. Yer. to Deuteronomy xxxii. 24 and Numbers vi. 24; Targ. to Cant. iii. 8, iv. 6; Eccl. ii. 5; Ps. xci. 5, 6.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon#Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dybbuk

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 06:25 PM
Do you understand what the addition of "ha" to "satan" signifies ?




Do you?

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 06:29 PM
and neither does the link you posted earlier




I've only posted one link. Don't make up links and say I'm confused, my friend.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 06:30 PM
Do you?

evasion noted
would you like to withdraw all your earlier claims now in light of the insurmountable conflicting evidence?
:confused:

I've only posted one link. Don't make up links and say I'm confused, my friend.

ok lets go over this slowly shall we
heres what you posted earlier including the one link I referenced, where did I say you supported any of the claims youve come out with, with more than one mans opinion (Ariel Scheib)
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html
please read it, it contradicts itself as you are now doing
Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins
So satan isn't a being in Judaism, yet he can have conversations with God
You are confusing the Talmud and Midrash concepts with those of the Torah
:p
when was the last time you read the book of Job ?
want me to provide a link ?
:D
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm
now make sure you read it, there might be a test later

or would you like to move on to your knowledge of Tiamat when earlier you said
Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.

This implies you have some deep understanding of Babylonian mythology
:degrin:

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 06:47 PM
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S
they apparently don't agree with you
and neither does the link you posted earlier



Oops. I thought that was my link. I'm sorry, let me just read this one and I'll get back to you.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 06:50 PM
Oops. I thought that was my link. I'm sorry, let me just read this one and I'll get back to you.
Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from
;)

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 06:58 PM
Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference.

If you agree that the OT is in conflict with itself regarding the character of Satan, don't you think my assertion that he is seen as the symbol of evil by most jewish readers, or is that just in my family?

If these questions are actually beside the point, could you just state the core of your argument so that I don't leave as ignorant as I came, because leaving I am.

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 06:59 PM
Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from
;)


Okay, you answered my question so ignore the post below yours, please.

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 07:08 PM
What about Santa Claus? How much of him did Coca Cola create?

Marduk
31st October 2010, 07:12 PM
Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference..
Pre-diaspora, Hebrews didn't define evil, post-diaspora they named it, from "adversaries" to "the adversary". (Ha)
Religious beliefs evolve, this evolving influence was Babylonian
(I think you meant homogenous there, not homogenic) :D

If you agree that the OT is in conflict with itself regarding the character of Satan, don't you think my assertion that he is seen as the symbol of evil by most jewish readers, or is that just in my family?

It is in conflict, because it wasn't written at the same time by the same person, like any chronicle therefore it reflects the beliefs of a wide variety of people who were influenced by many other cultures around them over a long period, nowhere is this more apparent than in Genesis 1 where the role you would think most suiting to Satan is played by a serpent, simply because Satan hadn't been invented at that point in Hebrew history.

When you get back to the roots of it, Satan changed from a force to a personality between 600BCE and 100CE by which point he was personified as the character that Christianity recognises today, the only significant thing that happened to the Jews in that period was their enslavement by the Babylonians. If youre not aware of that part of their history
heres wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

As regards your family, without knowing to which movement they belong I wouldn't hazard a guess, you don't seem particularly devout though
:p

Marduk
31st October 2010, 07:19 PM
What about Santa Claus? How much of him did Coca Cola create?
Ask them
http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.html
Did you know that the original Saint Nicholas was just a figurehead (like many national saints, St George of England for instance was made patron 1000 years after he died and never even visited the UK) created by the Church to cover pagan worship some of which revolved around the God Belus
who was the slavic version of satan
funny how its all connected isn't it......
:D

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 07:57 PM
I think you meant homogenous there, not homogenic

No, words is the only thing I'm really good at.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=homogeny&ls=a
http://www.wordnik.com/words/homogenic



As regards your family, without knowing to which movement they belong I wouldn't hazard a guess, you don't seem particularly devout though
:p

I'm not, but I think there's something lacking in your cerebral and Spockian reasoning around this subject. Us "modern" people tend to look down on the superstitious fools of yore and think that they believed most anything, and always in a literal sense.

It's like people from the future watching television shows from 2010 and marvelling at what people believed in. "A smoke monster! What fools they were!" Without the interpretation, all we have left of history is a text.

Maybe they 'believed' in the same sense we do today.

You can give me more links if you want, but then you've really proven that you don't get what I'm saying.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 08:01 PM
No, words is the only thing I'm really good at.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=homogeny&ls=a
http:///homogenwww.wordnik.com/wordsic
.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/homogenic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogenic

I'm not, but I think there's something lacking in your cerebral and Spockian reasoning around this subject. Us "modern" people tend to look down on the superstitious fools of yore and think that they believed most anything, and always in a literal sense.

That would be argumentum ad populum, its a logical fallacy and in this case its wrong, what we know of ancient peoples isn't just based on what they wrote. We also have the archaeological evidence of their daily lives. They did believe in demons, angels and spirits, they had words for them and names for specific ones and they exhibited some very specific remedies both medical and superstitious against them. I can provide you with an extensive list of instances if youre interested

It's like people from the future watching television shows from 2010 and marvelling at what people believed in. "A smoke monster! What fools they were!" Without the interpretation, all we have left of history is a text.
Maybe they 'believed' in the same sense we do today.
Thats a generalisation, also a logical fallacy, Education and science has been proven to be the bane of relgious fundamentalism, those people had none, they didn't know that the world and the heavens were not arranged like the priests claimed they were, because the only source they had were priests

You can give me more links if you want, but then you've really proven that you don't get what I'm saying.
Thats because what youre saying isn't evidenced, but rather unwarranted supposition and assumption
;)

ExMinister
31st October 2010, 08:23 PM
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.

Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh. :)




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

Marduk
31st October 2010, 08:30 PM
Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh. :)




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

isn't that like saying that you can't worship the God who sent the Great Flood without being Sumerian ?
:D
many do, and aren't
you know that the concept of satan predates christianity by hundreds of years ?

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 08:41 PM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/homogenic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogenic




Why are you providing me with these links? Be clear about what linguistic mistakes you feel that I've made and we'll discuss it, but don't just provide links that in no way take anything away from the ones I provided or from what I'm saying.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 08:58 PM
Why are you providing me with these links? Be clear about what linguistic mistakes you feel that I've made and we'll discuss it, but don't just provide links that in no way take anything away from the ones I provided or from what I'm saying.

One of your links wasn't even to the correct word and the other wasn't a dictionary but a link to 3 uses of the word made by people not especially skilled in linguistics. Both of my links were to well known dictionaries that make it quite clear that you were using a word with a specific medical usage which is not designed for non medical texts
lets leave it at that shall we, discussing your errors is off topic, if you want to carry on
start another thread
and please in future, if someone goes to the trouble of providing you with a credible link, you could at least show them the respect of reading it,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogeneous?fromRef=true&__utma=1.947945403.1288576845.1288581097.128858412 1.3&__utmb=1.4.9.1288584121312&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1288584121.3.3.utmcsr=forums.randi.org|ut mccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/showthread.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=1938865
;)

Niggle
31st October 2010, 09:03 PM
I think it's the Christians who actually worsip Satan; they spend so much time talking about him and assign so much power to him.

Besides, they had to invent someone worse than the psychopathic megalomaniac they worship so their guy wouldn't seem so bad.





I was raised Catholic. Bitter? Me? Nah!

Brattus
31st October 2010, 09:06 PM
I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

They just can't seem to get their brains around that one.

A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.

I agree.

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 09:14 PM
One of your links wasn't even to the correct word and the other wasn't a dictionary but a link to 3 uses of the word made by people not especially skilled in linguistics. Both of my links were to well known dictionaries that make it quite clear that you were using a word with a specific medical usage which is not designed for non medical texts
lets leave it at that shall we, discussing your errors is off topic, if you want to carry on showing everyone what you don't know
start another thread
and please in future, if someone goes to the trouble of providing you with a credible link, you could at least show them the respect of reading it,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homogeneous?fromRef=true&__utma=1.947945403.1288576845.1288581097.128858412 1.3&__utmb=1.4.9.1288584121312&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1288584121.3.3.utmcsr=forums.randi.org|ut mccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/showthread.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=1938865
;)

Surely, you must know that medical dictionaries don't contain every possible usage of a word, but that they focus on the medical definition, whether or not there are other accepted uses?

Both my links were to the intended words. Homogeny was the word I wanted to link to, in one of the links. The other link was to show you that the word can be used creatively, which you seem unable to understand.

Also, don't accuse me of not reading the links. I read them and saw your mistakes. Here I'm trying to explain to you where you went wrong.

I don't care who follows this debate. I have nothing to hide. However, in respect of your request not to ruin this thread with off-topic bickering, I'll leave now and comment no further. I hope you can show enough respect to do the same after I'm gone.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 09:14 PM
funny how its all connected isn't it......
:D

Funny or could it be that Satan has come for a piece of his birthday cake?

Brattus
31st October 2010, 09:17 PM
Well Marduk from reading some of your previous post I know you know what you're talking about here but I still don't get it.

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

But rather to devote ones life and serve what is believed to be a real deity.

So to worship Satan as a Satan worshiper would do they would need to believe that Satan is a real deity that is part of the real world.
So if they believe Satan is real then how could they not believe in the Christian God?

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

Hey Marduk could you please answer this post.
I am interested in what you might have to say regarding this.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 09:30 PM
Surely, you must know that medical dictionaries don't contain every possible usage of a word, but that they focus on the medical definition, whether or not there are other accepted uses?


neither of the dictionaries were medical, the miriam webster one only has an entry for that word under its medical section, lets have a look at what you got wrong so far in order shall we
1. Claimed that Satan and Tiamat have no connection
2. Claimed that Satan was not considered corporeal in Judaism
3. Definition of the Torah isn't just values as you stated
4. Claimed that only Christians believe in devils and demons, angels and spirits.
5. didn't know what "Ha" signified
6. Claimed I had misrepresented the number of links you posted
7. Claimed not to be confused
8. Posted on off topic santa claus (until I saved your post from deletion under rule 11)
9. Made several logical fallacies to cover your lack of knowledge of historical research
10. Claimed that Satan had alleles
11. went off topic again posting something which didn't include anything about satan when I had clearly shown you with dictionary references (which you have been unable to provide) that you had confused the word "Homogenic" (purtaining to genetics) with the word "homogenous" (things of a similar nature)

Up til now I was too embarrassed for you to point these out, but as this posts on topic and yours isn't perhaps you'd like to take this opportunity to actually find out what the "E" stands for in JREF and put that into practice in future posts
OK ?
:D

I know you'll be posting on this again
12 you claimed twice you were leaving the thread
:p

Brattus
31st October 2010, 09:41 PM
Interesting.

Technically, a Christian worships Christ, and a Satanist worships Satan, who could be described as the anti-Christ.

So you have to be anti-Christian, so to speak, to be a Satanist, not a Christian.

BUT you also have to accept the Christian idea that such a being as Satan exists in order to be a Satanist, in which case you have to start out accepting at least that element of Christianity.

So, does accepting the Christian idea of a being called Satan make you a Christian? Hmm. Kinda sorta, not entirely though. There's a lot more to being a Christian. Then again, if you didn't accept this one Christian idea, you wouldn't believe in Satan and couldn't be a Satanist.

So, no you are not wrong.

Funny question. The idea of which part offended you made me laugh. :)




(Oh, and your sig line is great, too!)

Hi Ex!
Hey if I could be a Satan worshiper and stay an atheist I would do it only because being an atheist is soooooooooo boring.
I would however not be a Christian if I could stay an atheist because I could never be that evil.

Regarding my sig. That post of yours had me written all over it!
As well you know my big opinionated text talk makes me soooo many forum friends!
I really am working on it though. Not all of us can express ourselves as well as Mr. Lancaster once could. What a gift that would be though!

Marduk
31st October 2010, 09:43 PM
Hey Marduk could you please answer this post.
I am interested in what you might have to say regarding this.
Sorry I missed it first time in the jokes about your wiener.
:D

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

Just because someone worships something it doesn't make that something a God, the Church of Satan rejects all Gods and instead places their faith in powers, or elements, as such its equivalent to modern pantheists worshipping nature, or the Jedi worshipping the force. Having it this way they then have a natural hierarchy, with those claiming to be most in tune with "the power" directing the way to it to others. Satan was just window dressing imo

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

Satan existed quite some time before the Bible, and even longer before Jesus, the concept of evil personified predates Abrahamic religion by thousands of years, so Satan although today recognised generally as a christian character could equally well be claimed to be either Hebrew or even Babylonian in origin. The name itself isn't Hebrew, but exists in all Semitic languages where "Sa" is "to oppose" or "to equal" and "An" represents "heaven"
the two words date to 3000bce, thats 5000 years ago, quite a lot older than Abraham (1800bce) who founded the monotheistic religions we know today
Although please note, I am not claiming Satan is the invention of just one culture, but the homogenised (;)) result of many
anything else
just ask
;)
Hi Ex!
Hey if I could be a Satan worshiper and stay an atheist I would do it only because being an atheist is soooooooooo boring.

Pantheism is sexed-up atheism.
:p

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 10:06 PM
11. went off topic again posting something which didn't include anything about satan when I had clearly shown you with dictionary references (which you have been unable to provide) that you had confused the word "Homogenic" (purtaining to genetics) with the word "homogenous" (things of a similar nature)

Up til now I was too embarrassed for you to point these out, but as this posts on topic and yours isn't perhaps you'd like to take this opportunity to actually find out what the "E" stands for in JREF and put that into practice in future posts
OK ?




You couldn't let it go even though I offered to leave?
E-ducate yourself with this, then, my former friend:

"Homogenous" are indeed things of a similar nature, just as you write.
"Homogenic" refers to animals with a common origin. The technicalities of that term concerns genes, yes, but I was comparing your different Satanic prototypes to animals and wondering about their common origin, which is a perfectly good way to use a word. You couldn't be more wrong.

Now do you understand?
Learn, for Satan's sake.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 10:09 PM
You couldn't let it go even though I offered to leave?
E-ducate yourself with this, then, my former friend:

"Homogenous" are indeed things of a similar nature, just as you write.
"Homogenic" refers to animals with a common origin. The technicalities of that term concerns genes, yes, but I was comparing your different Satanic prototypes to animals and wondering about their common origin, which is a perfectly good way to use a word. You couldn't be more wrong.

Now do you understand?
Learn, for Satan's sake.
Still haven't found a dictionary that supports your usage then
colour me "not at all surprised"
:p

btw, friends don't fall out just because one of them is wrong all the time
or, if you prefer
oh noes, now that you have withdrawn our JREF profile friendship connection I only have 280 other friends left
:D
your loss

Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:10 PM
Sorry I missed it first time in the jokes about your wiener.
:D

Stop looking at me! LOL!!!!!!!

Just because someone worships something it doesn't make that something a God, the Church of Satan rejects all Gods and instead places their faith in powers, or elements, as such its equivalent to modern pantheists worshipping nature, or the Jedi worshipping the force. Having it this way they then have a natural hierarchy, with those claiming to be most in tune with "the power" directing the way to it to others. Satan was just window dressing imo

Thanks for your response!
How can you have a church of something but not believe in gods?
Even the Jedi didn't worship the force they were just aware of it and used it to help themselves accomplish their goals.
There was no church of the force. It sounds to me like these Satanist are just trying to deny that they have to accept the Christian way before they can even begin their Satan way.

Satan existed quite some time before the Bible, and even longer before Jesus, the concept of evil personified predates Abrahamic religion by thousands of years, so Satan although today recognised generally as a christian character could equally well be claimed to be either Hebrew or even Babylonian in origin. The name itself isn't Hebrew, but exists in all Semitic languages where "Sa" is "to oppose" or "to equal" and "An" represents "heaven"
the two words date to 3000bce, thats 5000 years ago, quite a lot older than Abraham (1800bce) who founded the monotheistic religions we know today
Although please note, I am not claiming Satan is the invention of just one culture, but the homogenised (;)) result of many
anything else
just ask
;)


:p

Thanks for the history lesson! I'm not being a smartass you are obviously very well educated in religion.
But I was strictly referring to the Satan that my ex friend was referring to.

In other words the most current meaning and understanding in American terms of Satan.
I told her I had no religious beliefs and at first she called me an atheist and then she called me a Satan worshiper.

The Satan in the king james version of the bible she more than likely lugs around with her but never reads.
That Satan was created by the God of the same book.

So, no God no Satan. I believe I am correct in the context described.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 10:22 PM
How can you have a church of something but not believe in gods?
.
Because along with the church you get freedom from taxation (first amendment) and because of the etymology of the word it is a house belonging to a lord. The lord doesn't have to be a deity.
Even the Jedi didn't worship the force they were just aware of it and used it to help themselves accomplish their goals.
There was no church of the force. .
youre talking movies, I'm talking reality
http://www.jedichurch.org/
http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/
:p

So, no God no Satan. I believe I am correct in the context described.
you were perfectly correct, in her narrow definition and understanding of Satan you totally pwned her ass

;)

Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:30 PM
Because along with the church you get freedom from taxation and because of the etymology of the word it is a house belonging to a lord. The lord doesn't have to be a deity.
;)

OK. I understand the taxation thing. That makes perfect sense.
But are saying that they believe that there is or once was a living man named Satan?

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 10:34 PM
Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference.




I feel ridiculous quoting myself, but if you exchange the word "homogenic" above with "homogenous", the connection to the past (the old testament, et c) completely disappears, so you're wrong about my intentions.

As for stylistics, which is to some extent a matter of opinion, the dictionary definitions that you provided will actually do fine. Read them carefully and you'll see how my usage makes sense. On the other hand, if, for whatever reason, you feel that I am not entitled to use a word in a creative and original yet perfectly consistent and logical way, then that's your opinion.

But it is an opinion, Marduk.

As for the rest, I don't really care. I'm sorry I wasted your time, but I kind of thought it was a light-hearted thread made just for Halloween.

Illiadus
31st October 2010, 10:35 PM
Bye now.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:35 PM
youre talking movies, I'm talking reality
http://www.jedichurch.org/
http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/
:p


You can't talk reality about a movie. That is all star wars is, a movie.
The force isn't real no matter how many wingnuts believe it is or put up silly websites about how it is.

Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:41 PM
As for the rest, I don't really care. I'm sorry I wasted your time, but I kind of thought it was a light-hearted thread made just for Halloween.

That was my intent of the thread.
I did ask the question about the Satan Christian thing seriously though.

Marduk
31st October 2010, 10:43 PM
OK. I understand the taxation thing. That makes perfect sense.
But are saying that they believe that there is or once was a living man named Satan?

Satan is used as a figurehead, its more about what the concept represents
here are their "Nine Satanic Statements"

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!
you can find out everything you ever wanted to know about their beliefs from their website
http://www.churchofsatan.com/
;)

Brattus
31st October 2010, 10:52 PM
Satan is used as a figurehead, its more about what the concept represents
here are their "Nine Satanic Statements"


you can find out everything you ever wanted to know about their beliefs from their website
http://www.churchofsatan.com/
;)

Damn! That big hooter chick was right! I AM a Satan worshiper!
Holy Halloween Batman!

Marduk
31st October 2010, 10:56 PM
Damn! That big hooter chick was right! I AM a Satan worshiper!
Holy Halloween Batman!

Why don't you re read it replacing "Satan represents" with "I like", then you'll have something really worthwhile to follow
;)
As for the rest, I don't really care. I'm sorry I wasted your time, but I kind of thought it was a light-hearted thread made just for Halloween.
You jumped in on my response to fnord to tell me that in your opinion there was no connection between Tiamat and Satan, you then went on to admit you knew nothing about Tiamat and as we saw very little about Satan
I thankyou for your comments, but you lack the knowledge to make statements like that
k ?
:D

Brattus
31st October 2010, 11:05 PM
Why don't you re read it replacing "Satan represents" with "I like", then you'll have something really worthwhile to follow
;)

Gee I don't know. I kinda like being a Satan worshiper.
That sounds no where near as boring as saying I have no religious beliefs.

Who knows, if I had told her last night when she asked that I was a Satan worshiper I could very well be knee deep in big hooter christian poontang right about now.

nescafe
1st November 2010, 05:18 AM
Gee I don't know. I kinda like being a Satan worshiper.
That sounds no where near as boring as saying I have no religious beliefs.

Who knows, if I had told her last night when she asked that I was a Satan worshiper I could very well be knee deep in big hooter christian poontang right about now.

Knee? Kinky! Hopefully other organs would have been involved as well, tho. :-)

Marduk
1st November 2010, 08:50 AM
You can't talk reality about a movie. That is all star wars is, a movie.
The force isn't real no matter how many wingnuts believe it is or put up silly websites about how it is.

so they don't worship the force then ? (despite being wingnuts)
and it isn't a deity ? (despite not actually existing)
;)

The Jedi part was just to illustrate that people worship things that aren't deities, I expect a better answer would be, "poontang"
or the other popular non deity worship thing
Money,
what did you think I was going to say
:p

ParrotPirate
1st November 2010, 03:28 PM
I found Jesus once - he'd slipped down behind the sofa cushions, along with a couple of pens, about 20 pence in assorted copper change, half a comb and a rather dessicated apple core.

Thought I found him in the trunk of my car once. Turned out to be a bag of cans I hadn't recycled yet!

Xephyr
4th November 2010, 11:38 PM
oh boy are you single, or just in the wrong thread
:D

Nah, not single.
But if I were, I'd be happy and quite content with my own company.

No need for imaginary friends to depend and lean on.
:p

alfaniner
5th November 2010, 08:19 AM
I just did a decimal to binary conversion and found that
666d=1010011010b

(10/10/01 10:10)

Looks like it's already come and gone, with nary any fuss.

Sonny2
7th November 2010, 11:24 AM
A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.

Very well put.

epix
7th November 2010, 04:18 PM
OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.

That's right. Satan was born on 21st January.

Brattus
7th November 2010, 04:33 PM
That's right. Satan was born on 21st January.

Gregorian, Julian, Hebrew or Islamic?