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WWu777
1st March 2004, 04:17 AM
UNDERSTANDING THE PSEUDOSKEPTIC

Are deathbed visions nothing more than hallucinations of a dying brain? Carla Wills-Brandon addresses this in our lead article and in her excellent book on DBVs. But it is unlikely that many people calling themselves skeptics will be swayed to her view.
I understand skepticism. I am a skeptic in most things beyond immediate sensory verification and even in some things which are subject to sensory “proof.” At least I begin as a skeptic before investigating the subject in the pursuit of knowledge that might permit me to move off that skepticism. Rarely, however, do I move to a position of absolute certainty, and therefore I remain a skeptic to some degree. For example, I am 99 percent certain that consciousness survives bodily death, but I am only around 70-percent certain that reincarnation is a fact, at least in the manner generally accepted. If we move to the group soul concept, I am about 85-percent certain that reincarnation exists. I believe skepticism is a positive trait.
ARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> What I don’t understand is the attitude of the person who proudly, even arrogantly, calls himself a skeptic but refutes, rejects, or repudiates all evidence, no matter how strong that evidence, of a non-material world. This person is sometimes referred to as a pseudoskeptic. I prefer to call him or her a scoffer or a cynic. As I see it, this individual is at the other extreme of the credulous religious fundamentalist, the person who blindly accepts dogma and doctrine without any attempt to understand the underlying principles or get to their origin.
My dictionary defines “skeptic” as “a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.” The word comes from the Latin <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">scepticus and the Greek <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">skeptikos, meaning “thoughtful” or “inquiring.” I think it is safe to say that all<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> thinking people are skeptics until they have been satisfied by ample evidence that something is true. Of course, whether the person accepts a particular “truth” based on a preponderance of evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, or with absolute certainty is something else. Truth does seem to be a relative thing.
It is only natural that we should question and then closely examine the various psychic phenomena which suggest there is a non-material world. For most of us, there is prejudice in the pursuit of such knowledge, as we faced with two possible conclusions: There is a non-material world, i.e., a spirit world, or all is material, i.e., there is no spirit world. Seemingly, most people would prefer to come to the former conclusion, as it lends itself to the survival of consciousness. The alternative is to accept that we are temporal beings who evaporate into nothingness at bodily death.
On the surface, the pseudoskeptic appears to be the more objective examiner as well as the most heroic, unfettered by emotion and courageously facing up to his mortality and eventual extinction or obliteration with valorous indifference. However, the fact that he finds it necessary to go on the attack with self-righteous indignation for the “believers” leads one to conclude that he is motivated by a need, most likely one of ego appeasement. Why else does he find it necessary to attack what others find comforting and consoling? Please don’t tell me he is simply interested in being a beacon of light that makes the “truth” available to everyone. I can’t buy that.
“We expect to prove our sanity by laughing where we are ignorant,” wrote Dr. James Hyslop, the esteemed psychical investigator of a century ago. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for Hyslop, professor of ethics and logic at Columbia before entering the field of psychical research, to have substituted the word “intelligence” for sanity.
“The hypocrisy or ignorance of the (rationalistic) philosopher is manifest when he exhibits a consuming passion for the social and material pleasures of life and affects a righteous contempt for emotion when it concerns the ideals of religion and a future life,” Hyslop continued, referring to the scoffer or cynic who calls himself a philosopher. “Once he was supposed to help the race in guiding its emotions toward a right goal and so saw life in its true perspective. But lately, assuming the unbiased nature of doubt, he prides himself in laughing at inspiration and hope when they suffer at the loss of all that gave meaning to life and effort while he labors with all his might to secure the pleasures of a good table and social recognition without accepting any responsibility to share human struggle and suffering.”
> Much more recently, in his 1999 book, “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Passport to the Cosmos,” Dr. John Mack, a Pulitzer Prize winner and professor of psychiatry at Harvard, gives his thoughts on the “worldview” in which so many academicians are stuck. “A worldview functions at both individual and institutional levels,” Mack writes. “It is a source of security and a compass to guide us. For an individual it holds the psyche together. To destroy someone’s worldview is virtually to destroy that person. A complex network of institutions, an edifice of power and money, supports a worldview and gives it legitimacy.”
Mack goes on to say that “the findings of parapsychology challenge the idea of a mechanistic universe operating by established causal principles, suggesting a world in which unseen connections work mysteriously according to principles we do not yet understand and certainly do not control.” He admits that this was his own mindset – one devoid of consciousness and intelligence beyond the brain – until he began investigating the paranormal. He now looks back upon his former view of a secular universe as “quite absurd.”
For Mack, the evidence has been so convincing, he adds, that he has been slow to realize that those who have not traveled the same road are not ready to accept as true what sometimes appears to him as clear or even obvious.
The bottom line, as I see it, is that the pseudoskeptic, the scoffer, the cynic, whatever name we give to him or her, would rather appear intelligent now than be right in the long run. Am I missing something? -- <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Michael E. Tymn

Zep
1st March 2004, 04:31 AM
And your argument from this pile is...???

Ed
1st March 2004, 04:36 AM
Just some evidence, please. "Blaming the victim" demonstrates the brankruptcy of paranormal investigation.

Zep
1st March 2004, 04:48 AM
Oh, that's funny, Ed! Asking for evidence from Winston Wu!

:lol2:

Mercutio
1st March 2004, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by WWu777
UNDERSTANDING THE PSEUDOSKEPTIC
Rarely, however, do I move to a position of absolute certainty, and therefore I remain a skeptic to some degree. For example, I am 99 percent certain that consciousness survives bodily death, but I am only around 70-percent certain that reincarnation is a fact, at least in the manner generally accepted. If we move to the group soul concept, I am about 85-percent certain that reincarnation exists. I believe skepticism is a positive trait.
Wow...such high percentages. There must be some pretty extraordinary evidence that would bring you to such a firm belief!

It is only natural that we should question and then closely examine the various psychic phenomena which suggest there is a non-material world. For most of us, there is prejudice in the pursuit of such knowledge, as we faced with two possible conclusions: There is a non-material world, i.e., a spirit world, or all is material, i.e., there is no spirit world. Seemingly, most people would prefer to come to the former conclusion, as it lends itself to the survival of consciousness. The alternative is to accept that we are temporal beings who evaporate into nothingness at bodily death.
Ok, there it is, the choice to make. How do we choose between these alternatives? Again, there must be some extraordinary evidence for you to be certain at such high percentages....but so far you speak of none...

Am I missing something? Yeah...the part where you tell us what evidence convinces you at 99%! I mean, this is a huge question! One of the great mysteries of life! I happen to have come to a nearly opposite conclusion from you...but only because I have seen no evidence to convince me that there is survival of consciousness. I would be a fool not to be interested in evidence that convinces someone--a self-confessed skeptic, even--at a 99% level that there is survival...but there is nothing there. You make a couple of appeals to authority (and dated ones at that), but not even a hint of one bit of evidence.

Please...just one more post, where you list the actual evidence that convinces you. I am expecting something big here...

edited to add....I know, Zep, I know...

Zep
1st March 2004, 04:56 AM
:D

Thanks, Merc! And it don't get any better from here either...

Suezoled
1st March 2004, 05:08 AM
I don't question the wisdom of litte cute amphibians who run around saying "zep." It just can't be done.

Prester John
1st March 2004, 05:27 AM
What I don’t understand is the attitude of the person who proudly, even arrogantly, calls himself a skeptic but refutes, rejects, or repudiates all evidence, no matter how strong that evidence, of a non-material world.

I think i must have missed this evidence, please help me out of pseudoscepticism by presenting it.

Thankyou
regards
PJ

Oleron
1st March 2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by WWu777
Why else does he find it necessary to attack what others find comforting and consoling? Please don’t tell me he is simply interested in being a beacon of light that makes the “truth” available to everyone. I can’t buy that.


I have no problem with people having a belief in anything they like. I have no desire to destroy the world-view of non-skeptics. I do request, however, that when a believer makes a claim that can be tested by scientific method, that he/she submits evidence for the claim. If the evidence stands up to scrutiny, I'm quite prepared to believe.

BTW Winston, quoting John Mack does little for your argument.

Ed
1st March 2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Zep
Oh, that's funny, Ed! Asking for evidence from Winston Wu!

:lol2:

That icon thing looks like she is commiting a nasty act. You should be ashamed. What's next, Boobs?

Brown
1st March 2004, 06:16 AM
Quaere: This appears to be a complete reprinting of an essay, rather than the poster's own work, with no indication of proper permission. Is this permitted under forum rules?

----------

There is at least one good observation in the essay. Namely, there is a difference between a cynic (or scoffer) and a skeptic.

Many people do not distinguish between these categories. To them, skeptics are closed-minded people who have already made up their minds about things they don't understand. But such people are not skeptics. Skeptics are willing to be shown.

The rest of the essay, however, is largely nonsensical. There are indicia that it was written in earnest, otherwise I would almost think it was a comical piece. The notion that certain beliefs ought not be subject to scrutiny because some people find them "comforting and consoling" is so absurd that it is hard to believe that any intelligent, socially responsible person would advocate it.

Michael Redman
1st March 2004, 06:28 AM
Interesting, I put the beginning of the article into Google, and I got this link: http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter20.html

Interesting Ian
1st March 2004, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by WWu777
Much more recently, in his 1999 book, “Passport to the Cosmos,” Dr. John Mack, a Pulitzer Prize winner and professor of psychiatry at Harvard, gives his thoughts on the “worldview” in which so many academicians are stuck. “A worldview functions at both individual and institutional levels,” Mack writes. “It is a source of security and a compass to guide us. For an individual it holds the psyche together. To destroy someone’s worldview is virtually to destroy that person.



Yes absolutely.


A complex network of institutions, an edifice of power and money, supports a worldview and gives it legitimacy.”
Mack goes on to say that “the findings of parapsychology challenge the idea of a mechanistic universe operating by established causal principles, suggesting a world in which unseen connections work mysteriously according to principles we do not yet understand and certainly do not control.”



Yes absolutely.




He admits that this was his own mindset – one devoid of consciousness and intelligence beyond the brain – until he began investigating the paranormal. He now looks back upon his former view of a secular universe as “quite absurd.”



Indeed.

jcon96
1st March 2004, 12:55 PM
I do not believe I have ever heard the laws that keep the universe operating dismissed as "casual", interesting,so all the folks that have spent years studying physics and astromomy could have picked up the smae info from the back of a pamphlet? Quick, call Dr. Hawking and tell him he has been wasting his time!

Zep
1st March 2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Ed
That icon thing looks like she is commiting a nasty act. You should be ashamed. What's next, Boobs? Trust you to think that sort of stuff! Then again, a Janet Jackson animated smilie might not go astray here...

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!
1st March 2004, 01:02 PM
Finding conclusive or trivial flaws in one supposed paranormal event logically discredits anything else in existence considered paranormal!

Interesting Ian
1st March 2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by !Xx+-Rational-+xX!
Finding conclusive or trivial flaws in one supposed paranormal event logically discredits anything else in existence considered paranormal!

This would be hilarious if skeptics didn't sometimes seem to genuinely think this way! LOL

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!
1st March 2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian


This would be hilarious if skeptics didn't sometimes seem to genuinely think this way! LOL

I will personally demonize any skeptics that don’t think this way but in a mundane manner! The good thing is it appears many members here are safe from this but that is not enough! I also plan on making gravity/science worship more mainstream! :D

hammegk
1st March 2004, 01:19 PM
I enjoy the attitude here as I currently understand it: to wit

If we debunk one spoon-bender who claimed paranormal powers (whatever paranormal powers might mean) god does not exist, and only f*cking retards could believe otherwise.

thaiboxerken
1st March 2004, 01:35 PM
The argument from which skeptics come to that conclusion are not actual skeptic arguments. Your strawman is nothing but a sign of your disdain of the skeptical position. Maybe if you didn't invest so much emotions into your beliefs, you might not build such strawmen.

Only F*&Cking retards could believe in a god in which there is no evidence. That's meant as an insult more than a conclusion, btw.

hammegk
1st March 2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by thaiboxerken
The argument from which skeptics come to that conclusion are not actual skeptic arguments.

First post I've ever seen you make that is correct. Materialists/atheists have at least one glaring hole in their purported, holier-than-thou, skepticism.

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!
1st March 2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by hammegk
If we debunk one spoon-bender who claimed paranormal powers (whatever paranormal powers might mean) god does not exist, and only f*cking retards could believe otherwise.

Exactly!



:alc:
Materialism!
:alc:

Prester John
1st March 2004, 02:32 PM
Now that WWu understands pseudoscepticism, perhaps he can now turn his attention to scepticism. That is quite easy to understand really, y know the evidence thing.

The standard of evidence accepted by people who believe in paranormal events is,simply put,medieval. If that is sufficient for them, then fair enough, but they should not be suprised when their standards are not high enough for more enquiring minds. Scientific methodology provides the gold standards for proof. All evidence shoud be assessed, but not all carries an equal weight.

You can philosiphise all you like, but remember this discusion is taking place on the internet, ding 1 for science. All around you are the marvels of science. Does this disprove the paranormal? no. Does it prove that scientific methodology works ? Yes.

Zep
1st March 2004, 02:42 PM
Those who can - do.
Those who can't - teach.
Those who criticise - don't even understand.

Cecil
1st March 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Zep
Those who can - do.
Those who can't - teach. And those who can't teach, teach teaching. :D

LFTKBS
1st March 2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Yes absolutely.
Yes absolutely.
Indeed.

OMG IAN you have totally convinced me!!!!1 with such incredible arguments and evidence OMG OMG ! How could any person fail to see your brilliance OMG when you agree with WINSTON!!???!!!

Okay, seriously, Ian: there's nothing more for you to add?

magicflute
3rd March 2004, 02:01 PM
I hope everyone realizes that Mr. WWu-WWu's style is to drop a granade and then run. He goes arounds and posts the same cr*p over and over again, and rarely sticks around for a discussion. Just look at the evidence. Fruitless... totally fruitless. Let me go back to arguing with my shoelaces, sometime I can even get them to tie correctly!

jcon96
3rd March 2004, 02:35 PM
WwuWwu, you lack the courage of your convictions sir, stay around and at least attempt to defend your position. I thought trolls had backbones.

Vitnir
4th March 2004, 12:12 AM
Victor Zammit is a retired Supreme Court lawyer offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove to him that there is no afterlife!

Challenge (http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html)

Quasi
4th March 2004, 02:37 AM
Victor Zammit has proposed rules in which the arguments or tests are judged subjectively by a panel made up of people who are fundamentalists, and therefore his entire proposal is invalid. Randi has it setup so that the results are unambiguous, obvious, and the testing is done without him, such that when the results come it, the money is handed over to the claimant. Zammit is merely putting a carrot onto a stick for the gullible, leading them on as if he had a legitimate offer. Once again, it is the parapsychologists who are desperately clinging to a dogmatic worldview not supported by experience. The idea that Zammits contest is the same as the Randi Million Dollar Challenge is a joke. Not to mention the fact that you cannot prove a negative, especially one which is metaphysical and circular in nature. (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/) Also, again, it is up to the claimant to prove there is an afterlife. I suspect Zammit has a big future as a used car salesman.

Zep
4th March 2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Vitnir
Victor Zammit is a retired Supreme Court lawyer offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove to him that there is no afterlife!

Challenge (http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html) Victor Zammit's "challenge" is a complete pile of wombat's doodoos. Not only is it so poorly set up and worded that it is almost impossible to understand his "rules"; at the heart of it, it requires the challenger to prove a negative, something Victor will never admit to. That is, it is not a legitimate challenge at all.

And Victor is a loon! Here is his one of the prize inhabitants from his so-called Hall of Fame, Helen Duncan, producing ectoplasm from her nose. Convinced?? Victor sure is!

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/duncans/hduncan/hdun2.gif

T'ai Chi
9th July 2007, 09:47 AM
Randi has it setup so that the results are unambiguous, obvious, and the testing is done without him, such that when the results come it, the money is handed over to the claimant.


What about http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/

where it is stated by Randi that


but if they want to win a million dollars – divided eight ways, I presume – all they have to do is “remote” to Fort Lauderdale and discern what’s in the special “target” locker in my office.
...
That’s a definitive encoding, since we always call our shots in advance.


It probably wasn't all someone had to to. And it wasn't a definite encoding as the article discusses.

Lucky the persons who did it didn't claim they were psychic.