Islam & Judaism

[Upchurch]

(in an attempt at diversity in topics)

I know this is, in reality, mostly a political issue, but it is also two religions at complete odds with one another who are unable to either recognize or rationalize their common roots.

Before 9/11, I was more or less blissfully unaware of the conflict, but since then I've been stuggling to understand the basis for the conflict in both a recent and ancient historical context. Even though I know that both sides have done horrible things and there is no clear cut lines, I feel inclined to fall on the side of the Jews.

I was just curious if anyone else had convincing arguments why either side has the moral/historical/etc high ground over the other...

Upchurch

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Upchurch

I feel inclined to fall on the side of the Jews.


What is the basis for your inclination on the side of the Jews?

In this matter IMO, we should take in consideration not religious arguments (i.e. who is the real God) but whom really belongs the territory in dispute.

Q-S

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Q-Source


What is the basis for your inclination on the side of the Jews?
Probably because it was Muslims, granted extrmist Muslims, who attacked the Trade Center Towers and calling for the death of all Americans. I realize that it's an emotional call on my part, but I'm touchy about people wanting me dead.

In this matter IMO, we should take in consideration not religious arguments (i.e. who is the real God) but whom really belongs the territory in dispute.
I agree when it comes to the territory that it has nothing to do with whose religion is better than whose, but just within the conflict between Muslims and Jews, does one have the moral high ground at all? Or are all religions on equal footing?

[c4ts]

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by c4ts
There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

Originally posted by mumchup


It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

That reminds me of an old joke...

A nun was teaching a class in Catholic school and she asked one little girl "What do you want to be when you grow up?"
The girl replied " I want to be a prostitute when I grow up!"
The nun fainted on the floor, when she was revived she asked the girl "What did you say?"
The girl replied," I said I wanted to be a prostitute when I grow up." The nun said, "Thanks Heavens, I thought you said you wanted to be a protestant."

[c4ts]

Originally posted by mumchup


It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

I don't thing being the original is grounds for your emulators to hate you, with the exception of Coke but that's because the company is supposed to have competitors in a free market economy.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by c4ts


I don't thing being the original is grounds for your emulators to hate you, with the exception of Coke but that's because the company is supposed to have competitors in a free market economy.

Don't the various sects all compete for our attentions? Maybe it is like competing brands. It always seems that the less difference there is between two products, the more effort they put into pointing out how very, very different they are.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by mumchup


Don't the various sects all compete for our attentions? Maybe it is like competing brands. It always seems that the less difference there is between two products, the more effort they put into pointing out how very, very different they are.

Yet Eastern religions seem to combine quite easily, and ancient polytheistic Western religions incorporated other Gods into theirs.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by c4ts


Yet Eastern religions seem to combine quite easily, and ancient polytheistic Western religions incorporated other Gods into theirs.

Exactly. The eastern religions and western polytheism incorporated ideas from other beliefs.
The others are the result of somebody, at some time, deciding to break away from another church. There does seem to be a difference in attitude.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by mumchup


Exactly. The eastern religions and western polytheism incorporated ideas from other beliefs.
The others are the result of somebody, at some time, deciding to break away from another church. There does seem to be a difference in attitude.

But what is preventing two monotheistic religions from arriving at the conclusion "my God is just like your God, so maybe they're the same"? Attitude? Why aren't there any religions that share Christian and Islamic beliefs, or something like that? Not everybody has the same attitude, and that's how these divisions get started.

I have noticed in my life that many people who have a faith in God also believe that it doesn't matter what religion you are. They feel that Jesus, Mohommad etc were all teachers of one god. That yaweh, allah, the great white spirit- you name it are all incarnations of the same, of the "one" creator.

It seems in our society at least, having differing religious views is a little more tolorated than in the past. Look at the growth of new age religion. I don't have any stats to back it up, but it seems that more young people are more tolerant of other religions and are joining "alternative" religions such as Wicca.

It seems that this is not occurring as much in places such as the Middle East, although I'm not sure.

Anyhow, maybe the Muslims are just pissed because Abraham and Sarah threw out Ishmael in favor of Isaac. JK.

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws. Thus the Jews owned many of the banks and people resented them for this. I'm not sure if there is a parallel with the Middle East, but there must be something like that there.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by c4ts


But what is preventing two monotheistic religions from arriving at the conclusion "my God is just like your God, so maybe they're the same"? Attitude? Why aren't there any religions that share Christian and Islamic beliefs, or something like that? Not everybody has the same attitude, and that's how these divisions get started.

There is the Unitarian Universalist church. From what I've seen of them they have the kind of inclusive "everybody's god is the same" attitude you're talking about.
As for why there aren't more like them; why is there so much hateful nationalism, racism, class warfare, rioting sports fans etc. in the world? But then, maybe that's another subject altogehter.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by Denise
I have noticed in my life that many people who have a faith in God also believe that it doesn't matter what religion you are. They feel that Jesus, Mohommad etc were all teachers of one god. That yaweh, allah, the great white spirit- you name it are all incarnations of the same, of the "one" creator.

I know people like this too, and I have noticed that these same people seem also to consciously embrace the positive aspects of religion as a whole. By that I mean, don't lie, be nice to other people even if they are different, help others, and that sort of thing. And they spend little or no time trying to make sure others know that theirs is the One True Way to Salvation. It seems to me that that's what religion ought to be; and it's a good thing for the world.

For the record I am not at all religious

[c4ts]

Originally posted by mumchup


There is the Unitarian Universalist church. From what I've seen of them they have the kind of inclusive "everybody's god is the same" attitude you're talking about.
As for why there aren't more like them; why is there so much hateful nationalism, racism, class warfare, rioting sports fans etc. in the world? But then, maybe that's another subject altogehter.

The only problem is that the Unitarians are a fairly recent addition. I was wondering if there was something inherently wrong with monotheism itself, because early monotheism did not have, nor have any reason to need, Unitarian Universalism. But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?"

[Flaherty]

I tend to favor Israel over the Palestinians because Israel is the only real democracy in the region. Turkey is democratic, too, but they're not a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Palestinians ought to get the West Bank as a homeland, but not under the current conditions of repeated terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. How an Israeli politician extracts the Jewish settlers from the WB is beyond me.

[mumchup]

Originally posted by c4ts


The only problem is that the Unitarians are a fairly recent addition. I was wondering if there was something inherently wrong with monotheism itself, because early monotheism did not have, nor have any reason to need, Unitarian Universalism. But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?"

I don't think that the problem lies with monotheism, I think it's a much bigger problem than that.
I don't know much about the Unitarians, but I spent some time helping out social services group and they sometimes met in the basement of a unitarian church. The Sunday school stuff on the wall included non-christian religions in the teaching. Granted, it was not as prevalant as Jesus and crew, but it was there. Could just be that particular church too.

[FireGarden]

c4ts,
There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault
This reminds me of that Hitler-apologist/historian who actually tried to sue a jounalist that called him a fascist. He lost. And deservedly. (I don't remember his name, it might have been David something)

Why not:
"Atheists have been hated wherever they go, it must be because of who they are."

Because all outsiders and minorities have been hated wherever they go. A sad fact of human nature.



[On topic]
Arthur C Clarke being interviewed by Free Inquiry: (http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/clarke_19_2.html)

FI: Do you see any value at all in the various religions?

Clarke: Though I sometimes call myself a crypto-Buddhist, Buddhism is not a religion. Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.

FI: What appeals to you in Islam?

Clarke: Historically, Islam had a great deal of tolerance for other views and offered the world its priceless wisdom in the form of astronomy and algebra. And, as you know, Islam helped rescue Western civilization from the Dark Ages by preserving classical texts and transmitting them to the West. We, on the other hand, burned the library at Alexandria. If Islam hadn't fallen into internecine warfare and had gone on to conquer the rest of Europe, we'd have avoided a thousand years of Christian barbarism.

Of course, this is pre- 9/11
But it does bring out that we are not seeing Islam at its best right now.

[FireGarden]

I found the name of that historian who got sued.

David Irving VS Deborah Lipstadt (The Guardian April 2000) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,3984884,00.html)

In the trial (or at least the televised version, recreated with actors on the BBC) they used a clip from an interview with Irving where he says something similiar to C4ts. I haven't been able to find the exact quote.

[FireGarden]

I found what I was looking for.
It's on this page under the heading I've used for the link title.

(vii) Speech in Tampa, Florida, 6 October 1995, (p 16-19). (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-09-01.html)

And it's very similar to what C4ts said.

And what these people don't understand, by way of conclusion, is that they are generating anti-semitism by their behaviour, and they can't understand it. They wonder where the anti-semitism comes from, and it comes from themselves, from their behaviour.

He says plenty more just like it. (And worse, though I would not want to tar C4ts with that brush)

Of course, Irving has no shame about what he does. He gets alot of support and does his best to pick audiences where he is preaching to the converted.And he's so delusional he thought that he could win a court case to prove he's not a racist! (Well, specifically to prove he's not a holocaust denier - but the judge concluded that he was also a racist)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by c4ts

But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?" I attended a Unitarian service just yesterday and it was not, in my opinion, leaned towards Christianity. The church itself bears no religious symbols of any kind, that I could identify, unless you count the mural of trees and hills as a pegan symbol. At no time during the service was any reference made to Jesus, not even in the music. In fact, the only thing about the church that reminded me of the Christian church I grew up in, were a few elements of the architecture of the building itself, but one could argue that this is more inherent of American mid-west churches than Christian churches

Yesterday's service most centered around Martin Luthor King Jr.'s life and work (today being MLK Jr. Day), so by necessity, I suppose that one could argue that the service did have a Christian angle. However, I went to a service on April Fool's day a couple of years ago and the minister was telling jokes from various religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, and I think he even pulled a Native American joke.

In short (too late), you can't call Unitariansim a "Christian sect".

Upchurch

[CWL]

Originally posted by c4ts
There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

This has more to do with the fact that Jews have historically lived as a secluded minority (either by choice or because they have been forced to do so) within otherwise relatively homogenous societies. It is very easy to point at someone who is different when one is in need of a scapegoat...

"who has the moral/historical/etc high ground",...in most all incidences I give it to the Islamics. This is not to say I agree with their ridiculous and hideous religion, but as a whole, they been screwed by the Jews and Christians near everytime.

From the time of Abraham, when Ishmael got defrauded from his inheritence, to the late 40's when British allowed tens of thousand armed aliens to immigrate into Palestine, to the thousands of women and children murdered under General Ariel Sharon in the 80's, to the thousands of Palestinians torn from their homes and placed in refugee camps, the atrocities of the Jews are legendary outside the English speaking world.

As for christians, it was they, under the christian tyrant Justian, whose forced baptisms of the arabs in the 6th Century that lead directly to the establishment of the Islamic religion.

If we ever want Peace in the World, all three of these malignancies upon humankind must be obliterated.

In America school kids are taught about the American Revolution. Want to know what Arab kids learn in their schools? Try: http://www.deoxy.org/wc

[Graham]

I was following this with interest, waiting for some more big guns to weigh in.

Where are you guys? (don't answer that, I know where you are!)

Graham

[Giz]

Originally posted by davidstar
"who has the moral/historical/etc high ground",...in most all incidences I give it to the Islamics. This is not to say I agree with their ridiculous and hideous religion, but as a whole, they been screwed by the Jews and Christians near everytime.

From the time of Abraham, when Ishmael got defrauded from his inheritence, to the late 40's when British allowed tens of thousand armed aliens to immigrate into Palestine, to the thousands of women and children murdered under General Ariel Sharon in the 80's, to the thousands of Palestinians torn from their homes and placed in refugee camps, the atrocities of the Jews are legendary outside the English speaking world.

As for christians, it was they, under the christian tyrant Justian, whose forced baptisms of the arabs in the 6th Century that lead directly to the establishment of the Islamic religion.

If we ever want Peace in the World, all three of these malignancies upon humankind must be obliterated.

In America school kids are taught about the American Revolution. Want to know what Arab kids learn in their schools? Try: http://www.deoxy.org/wc

Bull.

A more accurate assessment would be that throughout history the state/people with greater power have invaded/oppressed those with less.

I'm not aware of ANY nation/religion being free from those traits. A cynic might put it down to human nature (It's just a pity that such a prominant part of our common humanity should be our fractious tribalism).

nb I haven't clicked on your link, so what is it they teach? The conquest of Spain? The Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and Armenia? Anyway, the moral is - don't claim victimhood, it won't improve your situation, but it might make you think like a victim.

[Q-Source]

Another bump :p

[renata]

Originally posted by Denise

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws. Thus the Jews owned many of the banks and people resented them for this. I'm not sure if there is a parallel with the Middle East, but there must be something like that there.

Denise, in a lot of countries, Jews were forbidden to own land. That is one of the reasons Jews went into various trades that did not involve land ownership, such as banking. Also, since Jews were scattered throughout Europe, it was easy to establish common trade connections between varying communities.

Originally posted by c4ts
There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

I can't imagine you really mean that. You can substitute anything instead of Judaism- atheism, being dark skinned, etc- pretty much any oppressed minority.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Denise

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws.
I think another main reason why there was such a long-standing resentment in Europe is the whole "You killed Jesus" thing. (Wasn't it just a few years ago that the pope officially relieved the Jewish people for any blame they supposedly had over this?)

[ShottleBop]

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

Read Constantine's Sword The Church and the Jews: A History, by James Carroll. It explains the roots of Christian anti-Semitism. It wasn't until the late 18th century, for example, in France, that Jews were admitted to citizenship in any major Christian European nation.

Jews and Muslims used to get along; Muslim Spain was a haven for Jews during the Middle Ages. (Actually, Jews, Christians and Muslims in Spain generally all got along pretty well under Muslim rule.) Judaism and Islam are very similar in many respects--certainly, they have more in common with each other than either of them has with Christianity.

The situation in Palestine is the result of Jews, in great numbers, moving (or, as many Jews would say, "returning") to a Palestine in which Jews were long outnumbered by Arabs. Many Jews consider Palestine to be "ours", promised to us in perpetuity by God. Others recognize the injustice of taking such a position. Tikkun's site (www.tikkun.org) is a good source of information regarding the pacifist Jewish approach to attaining peace in the Middle East.

[Loki]

There's no way I'm going to even attempt to unravel the history of Palestine and establish a clear mandate for one side or the other. About the only thing I surprised by is that the Israeli's have shown a disappointing ability to endulge in "an eye for an eye" in the past 25 years or so. Prior to the Yom Kippur War of 73, the Israeli's were fighting for survival in hostile lands. Since their overwhelming vitory, the external threats have largely diminished, and the Israelis are now cast in the role of "master" rather than "victim" in the region. How have they used this power? Same as everyone else!

The current Israeli philosophy seems to be something like "we've taken ***** for centuries - now it's our turn to kick some butt". Given the history of the 20th century, I'd have hoped the Jews might have been able to learn something about the dangers of a strong government marginalising a minority within the general population, but apparently not.

[Ben Shniper]

Muslims hate Jews, Jews hate Muslims. That's a very simple picture. The reality is even more simple, however.

Muslims also massacred Christians in Lebanon, in Sudan, in Ethiopia, in Egypt and are currently doing so in Ivory Coast (under the un-watchful eye of France), Nigeria, Pakistan, Algeria, and Chechnya/Russia. The world is full of war - but most wars are between a primarily Muslim group and a primarily non-Muslim or non-religious Muslim group. That's a cold hard fact.

So if the Palestinians "deserve" a state, we should ask why Muslims are attacking in Chechnya, Erritria, Philipines, Malaysia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all over. After all, Muslims just fight Jews, noone else, certainly there would be no wars of genocide against, say, Serbs and Croats and Bosnians in Europe, right? Oh, wait, there was? Does every Muslim group deserve more land, and new states? Does every group fighting Muslims always have to be automatically wrong to do so?

Well, just goes to show, there is something sinister happening, and it's name is militant Islam. (The political movement to make Islam the official religious doctrine of states).

http://www.danielpipes.org/

-Ben

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper
... we should ask why Muslims are attacking in ..... Malaysia ....
-Ben Are they? The only case you can make for this, is if you're talking about a few fanatics, much like the Christian fundamentalists in the US.

Malaysia is a 'muslim country', but still a democracy that is behaving very well and actively fighting extremism. :confused:

[FireGarden]

Ben, have you noticed that most wars are conducted in countries that can least afford them? Still correlation is not causation, there could be many factors involved.
Muslims hate Jews, Jews hate Muslims.
My (Muslim) uncle married a Jew.
A small survey, I know, but perhaps (just maybe) you're wrong on both counts. (I know you don't want to be) I also know that you don't want to believe what ShottleBop said above about Jews and Muslims getting along in Moorish Spain. Oh! I forgot, the Muslims built their empire through military conquest, unlike the Romans, the Vikings, the British, .......... consider "How the West was won"
The world is full of war - but most wars are between a primarily Muslim group and a primarily non-Muslim or non-religious Muslim group. That's a cold hard fact.
So......
In these "religious" wars, you have non-Muslims fighting alongside Muslims on team A against Muslims who are fighting alongside non-Muslims on team B!!!
After all, Muslims just fight Jews, noone else, certainly there would be no wars of genocide against, say, Serbs and Croats and Bosnians in Europe, right? Oh, wait, there was?
Excuse me, but I was under the impression that it was the Serbs under Milosovic that were killing Bosnian Muslims. Isn't that what he's on trial for? Not for conducting a war, but for carrying out a policy of "ethnic cleansing". Blair and Bush always use the West's intervention in this war as an example whenever they want to make it clear that they are not conducting a war against Islam.


But to find the most warlike, shouldn't we ask which nation has been involved in the most wars over the last hundred years? I can think of one nation that has been involved in WW I and II, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Libya and several Latin American states. Tony Benn has a longer list of countries that America has bombed in living memory, but I don't recall it.