Grading papers.

[Cleopatra]

I know that there are some experienced teachers ( I use the term with its broad meaning--teachers of every level of education) in this forum so I thought to ask for your input and discuss the matter theoritically.:)

I am grading the papers of the exams in Criminal Law II, the course that goes with the court simulations I am responsible for. I have to look at the papers and propose a grade to the professor who is too <strike through>bored</strike through> busy to grade. Last year he accepted all the grades I proposed, I don't know if he checked. :)

The exam is really simple. We give the students a case and they have three hours to compose an essay on it. They have to list the laws that are involved and sketch out the main arguments of the defense and the procecution.

Simple but not easy at all.

The average paper is 20 pages long at least.

I have in front of me an excellent paper. The student lists every single law that is involved and he includes a couple of laws that can be taken into consideration if the case takes a specific path. Excellent! I am impressed with him because in order to show that he knows the subject very well, he lists the reasons why similar laws have nothing to do with our case. Bravo my son!

Later on he starts building the argumentation of both sides and although his logic is well structured there it comes. In order to support an argument he brings as an example a similar case that unfortunately had nothing to do with what he discusses. This in my opinion reveals a serious misconception of the whole matter and although at the beginning he gives the impression that he knows of what he is talking about he obviously doesn't.

So, my question is. Is it fair for me to give him an F and make him pass the exam again? Note that if you ignore this mistake ( which is serious IMO) his essay is perfect. His language ( that is important in Law) is great, he uses simple Greek and he builts sentences that are really easy for every jury to understand).

In my opinion he failed to pass the exam but I don't wish to appear strict and above all I don't wish to disappoint the student who has obviouisly worked really hard.

[Zep]

Am I right in what you are saying here: You say he hit the first point absolutely spot on and in detail, and yet seems to have gotten the next bit badly wrong and/or contradictory to the right answer, even though it relies greatly on what he wrote in the the first bit. As though he didn't even know what he wrote in the first bit at all...

Being slightly suspicious myself, I would be finding out if he actually did that exam unaided by "some other means", or if it was a genuine mistake somewhere along the line.

Being brutally honest, I would suggest you give him a half-mark for getting the opening right, but if the intention was to get the next bit right too then he simply didn't do that. They don't pay lawyers to make simple mistakes, do they? Better to learn now in school than in front of a judge later.

[El Greco]

I can't opine with the available data (I'm not a teacher but I would make a damn good one :D) A description of the argument he is trying to support and of the unfortunate example may help.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Zep
Am I right in what you are saying here: You say he hit the first point absolutely spot on and in detail, and yet seems to have gotten the next bit badly wrong and/or contradictory to the right answer, even though it relies greatly on what he wrote in the the first bit. As though he didn't even know what he wrote in the first bit at all...

He listed the laws that are involved quite accurately and in the second part he had to present the basic arguments of the procecution and the defense. In order to support the arguments of the defense he brought as an example the verdict of a famous case ( let's say Zep v Cleopatra). The example he used showed to me that he hasn't understood the case Zep v Cleopatra at all and obviously he hasn't understood this case either.

If he avoided to bring this example he wouldn't have made this mistake.

Being slightly suspicious myself, I would be finding out if he actually did that exam unaided by "some other means", or if it was a genuine mistake somewhere along the line.

No no there was no way to do that, I suspect that he wanted to show off that he knew a lot and he was carried away.

Being brutally honest, I would suggest you give him a half-mark for getting the opening right, but if the intention was to get the next bit right too then he simply didn't do that. They don't pay lawyers to make simple mistakes, do they? Better to learn now in school than in front of a judge later.

My business associate says that I must judge them as if they presented a case during a trial. I disagree a bit because in a trial you go well prepared.

El Greco I think that now I have clarified . Just for you( since you probably know it) we aske them about a really notorius case that took place in Greece some years ago with a lawyer who murdered his clients after he made them change their wills. We chose this case because the murderer had violated the 2/3 of the Criminal Code.I don't know if you have heard that the lawyer escaped from prison and he is out there now if he is not in Brazil. :)

[Lothian]

Well as far as I am concerned He deserves an A not only has he written about Law but to do it in Greek as well !!!

Seriously.

I have recently done an exam and after walking out I realised that I had quoted the wrong title to a case. I had the case right but the title wrong. Could this have happened here ?

You also need to consider what you are testing. Are you after someone who can identify the relevant issues / cases or give someone that can give the right answer. I suspect in Law there is not always consensus on the right answer, otherwise there would be no need for cases.

I would say a good lawyers can present the facts and bring to the attention of the judge other relevant cases. This candidate has done that. While the judge might not agree with the arguments in respect one case he has nevertheless got 90% of the way there.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
The example he used showed to me that he hasn't understood the case Zep v Cleopatra at all and obviously he hasn't understood this case either.

Why 'obviously' ? Isn't it possible that he has just misunderstood the Cleo v Zep case, or even that he cited the wrong case ?

Originally posted by Cleopatra
a really notorius case that took place in Greece some years ago with a lawyer who murdered his clients after he made them change their wills.

Yes, that case was very strange... Why couldn't he take their money legally like every other lawyer ?

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I don't know if you have heard that the lawyer escaped from prison and he is out there now

He must be somewhere here... I guess it is possible that the mysterious disappearances of old people in the area of my pharmacy may not be attributed solely to the drugs I give them.

[Tez]

Personally I would be extremely annoyed if one of my TA's made an important judgement call, such as the one you're apparently facing, without consulting me. In large classes I can't grade every paper, or even check up on every TA. However I can be - and want to be - there to help make the difficult calls, since ultimately the buck stops with me.

I suggest you talk about it with the Prof teaching the course.

[Cleopatra]

Hi Tez!!! I am glad to see you back.:)

Of course I will discuss the matter with him but I am interested in the matter theoritically speaking. I wonder how experienced teachers deal with such cases. Also, I am proposing grades because I am the one who reads the endless papers. He is not obliged to take them into consideration.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Lothian
I have recently done an exam and after walking out I realised that I had quoted the wrong title to a case. I had the case right but the title wrong. Could this have happened here ?

No because he explained why he used it as argument. It was the case of Zep v Cleopatra indeed but it is not relevant to our case.

You also need to consider what you are testing. Are you after someone who can identify the relevant issues / cases or give someone that can give the right answer. I suspect in Law there is not always consensus on the right answer, otherwise there would be no need for cases.

We judge their knowledge regarding the code and how they can build the basic arguements of both sides. In the first part we test the knowledge in their second part their ability to build arguments and their knowledge too.

I would say a good lawyers can present the facts and bring to the attention of the judge other relevant cases. This candidate has done that. While the judge might not agree with the arguments in respect one case he has nevertheless got 90% of the way there.

This student demonstrated that he knows which laws trial his case, he was really good in building his argumentation but he made a basic mistake in trying to support his argument. His paper is really good, even his handwriting is perfect.

If I were in his shoes I would rather fail the exam than take an average grade. This paper doesn't deserve an average grade.


El Greco I think that my answer to Lothian cover you. In the particular trial none asked him which pharmacist advised him to use powdered glass...

[NoZed Avenger]

Sorry I cannot be of any help, but I cannot form any opinion on the information provided.

I think that to usefully comment, I'd need to know the course material, the stated grading policy, the question, and the answer.

My only suggestion would be to take your concern to the professor, no matter how bor^h^h^h busy he is, and have him decide directly.

[Tez]

Hi Tez!!! I am glad to see you back.

Of course I will discuss the matter with him but I am interested in the matter theoritically speaking. I wonder how experienced teachers deal with such cases. Also, I am proposing grades because I am the one who reads the endless papers. He is not obliged to take them into consideration.

It is an interesting hypothetical Cleopatra.

My general philosophy is to try and reward evidence of understanding, and not evidence of ability to regurgitate material.

However I suspect its more difficult in law, where my limited understanding is that the ability to regurgitate large amounts material forms an essential part of being able to practise efficiently. Surely it is not so important however, that someone should pass based on this ability alone? Ultimately the quality of his analysis should be the overriding factor, and if thats fundamentally flawed then I reckon give him a poor grade...


(Oh, and be sure you're right ;) . As a grad student I TA'd a course and I failed a kid on their major assignment. To my great chagrin it turned out she was simply smarter then me!)

[Tez]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
[B]

If I were in his shoes I would rather fail the exam than take an average grade. This paper doesn't deserve an average grade.


Do you mean that you think he'll get a really good grade if he re-takes the exam?

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I don't know if you have heard that the lawyer escaped from prison and he is out there now if he is not in Brazil. :)
wow, that guy is very smart, for a lawyer:D

About the grade, are you sure that he didn't understad the case?
How could he use all the rights laws and not understand the case?
If he made a mistake in one of those 20 pages, I don't see how it affect the others. Give him a C and it is done.
:p

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
In the particular trial none asked him which pharmacist advised him to use powdered glass...

A superannuated one, undoubtedly. Pharmaceutical science has taken great steps since powdered glass.

[Cleopatra]

Nozed Avenger I avoided posting about the topic of the exam on purpose because everybody would focus on the case and my question has to do with educational evaluation.

But this was the topic in brief just to show you what sort of exams the students have to pass in Greece.:)


Mr. X,55, barrister, was arrested a month ago by the Police for murdering 13 elder people --all of them were his clients-- after persuading them to alter their wills and appoint him as beneficiary of their property. In his office they found two unregistered guns, rope,handcuffs, ether and quantities of powedered glass.
The Police believed that at least in five cases the victims were forced to sign forged wills and then executed by one of his accomplices.Those suspicions were verified by the preliminary questioning that was performed by the D.A of Athens.
The Police apart from Mr. X arrested five people that were believed to be his accomplices in spotting his targets and in executing his plan. All of them accepted their guilt during the preliminary interogation.
In at least five of the cases the Police suspected that relatives of the victims were involved but the DA managed to file charges only for the murder of the late Z.
The relatives of the family after being questioned, sued Mr. X and his accomplices and aske the court to declare the wills invalid and appoint them beneficiaries of the properties of the victims.Mr. X during his interrogation by the police and the D.A denies his guilt and he insists that it is a conspiracy.Also, he claims that he acquited the property of the victims legally and on behalf of the nursery house he owened.The nursery house wasn't subjected to the legislation about charity institutions.

Based on the case that is described above you are asked to compose the charges the D.A filed and describe the basic argumentation on which the procecution and the defense might built their arguments.

In your answer you are expected to discuss every aspect of the case.




So here there are some tricky parts that the majority saw.These are the profession of the accused, the items they were found and the heridary issues , since murder was involved.

The students in question made the mistake in the second part where he attempted to question the validity of the claims of the procecution regarding the benefactors of the wills. In order to support his opinion brought as an argument the verdict of a case he thought similar but there is no doubt that it has nothing to do with this case. Yes I checked and this is beyond any doubt, we have to deal with a mistake here.

Tez If he didn't decide to bring an example or if the example he brough was right his essay would be excellent.

So, my question is if a mistake that reveals a misunderstanding constitute a failure of the exam.

I can't just give him a C Lux because the grade of this exam might determine what firm will accept him as a trainee. Our firm for example doesn't accept trainees that have C in Civil or Criminal Law.

[cbish]

What are the reprocusions if he fails? Is it just time & tuition or do we start cutting off body parts?

I'd nail down your boss and force him to add his opinion.

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I can't just give him a C Lux because the grade of this exam might determine what firm will accept him as a trainee. Our firm for example doesn't accept trainees that have C in Civil or Criminal Law.
But that goes beyond the evaluation of the test, isn't it?
My teachers would just give a C and hardly hide the smile in their faces.:D
But I think that you should evaluate the test by what its worth, not by you think that could worth.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
So, my question is. Is it fair for me to give him an F and make him pass the exam again? Note that if you ignore this mistake ( which is serious IMO) his essay is perfect. His language ( that is important in Law) is great, he uses simple Greek and he builts sentences that are really easy for every jury to understand).


Tricky question. In part, it would depend on what you are allowed to do under your local laws and the rules of the university.

It's possible that there is an actual conncection that you didn't see because he didn't explain it well enough. Which would be a lowering of the mark, but possibly not as much as you'd think.

Also, there's the question of what the goal of the paper is. Is it to come up primarily with arguments a law professor would consider correct, and only secondarily to convince a jury? Or is it to come up with something that would primarily convince a jury? In the latter case, there are many cases where totally irrelevant cases might still be convincing to people who aren't legal experts.

[Tez]

My solution:

Find a different law class, and pose this problem on their exam...

(I wonder if law students argue about their grades even more than other students. And do they get more marks for making a good argument about an argument they claim they made, even if they didnt initially make it?)

[T'ai Chi]

My opinion as a former teaching assistant at the graduate level:

He could be bringing in the other case as 'filler' (to get a certain page count) rather than a misconception per say.

It sounds to me a paper that is around C- to B- range depending on if you consider him brining in cases that have nothing to do with it a misconception, or just filler to get a certain page count. Take an average of those so say between a C and a C+. :)

Yeah, echoing some people here, I'd run it by the prof just to make sure. My profs would always randomly audit all the teaching assistant's papers. There was one case where a teaching assistant basically gave good grades out wayyy too often.

[Badger]

Coming from an engineering background I assume I don't grasp the full scope of your dilemma.

It seems to me that the student should get marks for what he did right, and not get marks for what he did wrong. If he used many good things to support an incorrect argument, that would indicate failure to correctly answer the question, and a commensurate failing grade.

Don't feel guilty about the grade you have to give him. It is he who wrote the test, and it is your duty to mark it correctly. Not many firms in the real world will give him a break because he's got neat handwriting and speaks glibly if he is spouting garbage. If your grade means he gets into a less desirable firm, maybe that's how it should be.

Again, I probably don't understand the full scope of your dilemma.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by cbish
What are the reprocusions if he fails? Is it just time & tuition or do we start cutting off body parts?


Higher education in Greece is public that's why it's very difficult to pass the exams that lead to the University and of course to graduate it. Those who fail an exam might repeat it in September and if they fail again they can pass the exams again to the next period. Serious people though don't even think to lose a period and in important courses like this one.

If he fails he will come again on September if he passes he will have an average grade on him and I am not sure he will like that.

The scale is from 1-10. You need at least 5 to pass. The A starts from 8.5. Many students ( I used to do the same when I was a student) ask the professor to grade them with F if their paper can't get more than 8.5. Unfortunately this one hasn't written such a thing.

epepke , last year that I got involved to that I realized that there isn't any law that describes the way papers whould be graded. It's up to the professor. In this particular exam we test everything. Knowledge, ability to build arguements and fluency in expression.

Tez of course law students complain a lot and some times they do it as an exercize!!! I remember that I was accepted to a very good firm as a trainee because when I was a student I wrote a long letter to the rector of the university --who at the times happened to be a lawyer-- to complain about an issue. When I graduated he appointed me to a friend of his who had a big and really respectable firm. So, I am sure that we will hear from this student anyway.

Yesterday I faxed the professor the paper and he said that he would give him a 7. Seven is not a bad grade but I am certain that this particular student was hitting 9.

Badger I think that in theoritical studies things are more complicated. You get grades about the general image your paper presents.

For example in Greece we don't have tests with multiple choice answers so it's not easy to grade papers 25 and 30 pages long.

[Badger]

Ya, I figured it would be something along those lines.

I'd never make a lawyer.

[Schizobunny]

I love grading papers. Oh sorry. Off subject. I think you should give him half credit for stating out the paper so well, but then screwing it up.