Nazi "Medical" Experiments?

[Sabretooth]

My wife is working on a paper that discusses medical expermients with attention to the negligence and irresponsiblity of some doctors to obtain useful data.

She wants to use the Nazi's as her prime example.

I've heard of some of the appalling experiments that the Nazi's performed on prisoners...such as hypothermia testing and irradiating genitals to induce infertility...but is there documentation of others?

Are there any websites that go into details about what the Nazi's did and what kind of "tests" were done?

[Cainkane1]

I'd just as soon not read what those Nazi butchers did.

[Aepervius]

Try google "nazi medical war crime".

You get this as first link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation


After that you have got references etc...

[Beady]

I've often wondered if anything useful came out of those experiments.

[Sabretooth]

She isn't allowed to use Wiki as a source for her papers...but I had a head full of dumb this morning and totally forgot that the articles are sourced to points that she can use. Thanks for helping point out my dumbness, Aepervius! :D

[patchbunny]

I've often wondered if anything useful came out of those experiments.

Didn't they end up with useful data from their hypothermia experiments?

[Craig4]

I highly recommend "The Nazi Doctors" by Robert Jay Lifton. He does case studies in the of four or five of the doctors and interviewed one. He also interviewed some of the prisoners who were forced to participate or assist. It's probably the most comprehensive work ever done on Nazi medical experiments.

[sophia8]

I've often wondered if anything useful came out of those experiments.
Most of the experimentation was useless at best; either the results were utterly predictable (eg, sewing people together will not produce conjoined twins), or the tests could have been carried out on animals.
However, (according to the Wikipedia article) some of the military-based experiments, those that investigated treatments for battlefield wounds, phosphorus burns, mustard gas, hypothermia and so on, produced some useful results:Contemporary knowledge concerning the manner in which the human body reacts to freezing is based almost exclusively on these Nazi experiments. This, together with the recent use of data from Nazi research into the effects of phosgene gas, has proven controversial and presents an ethical dilemma for modern physicians who do not agree with the methods used to obtain these data.
The most useful thing that came out of this horrifying episode was the drawing up of an international ethics code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code) for medical experimentation on humans. Surprisingly, such a code hadn't existed before.

[Craig4]

Didn't they end up with useful data from their hypothermia experiments?

The design of the modern life jacket which keeps the back of the head out of the water came partially from their experiments on Russian POW's. The British were figuring this out on their own with their studies on pilots rescued from the North Sea.

[Paul W]

My wife is working on a paper that discusses medical experiments with attention to the negligence and irresponsibility of some doctors to obtain useful data.

She wants to use the Nazi's as her prime example.

I've heard of some of the appalling experiments that the Nazi's performed on prisoners...such as hypothermia testing and irradiating genitals to induce infertility...but is there documentation of others?

Are there any websites that go into details about what the Nazi's did and what kind of "tests" were done?


See: Hitler's Scientists: Science, War and the Devil's Pact by John Cornwell

It's available from Amazon, and presumably elsewhere. It gives a frightening account of what "eminent" German scientists - including some who later won Nobel prizes - got up to in WW2

The problem is that some useful information came from some of these "tests" - including data on how the human body reacts to extremes of cold when immersed in freezing water, ie the sea, and how to treat it. In fact, just about all of our information on this subject seems to have come from this. There has been considerable debate on the subject of whether it is ethical to use this information.

[Beady]

There has been considerable debate on the subject of whether it is ethical to use this information.

Information is information, and truth is truth, wherever you find it. Besides, it seems to me that pulling something out of the rubble that is beneficial to humanity would give some positive meaning to the victims' deaths.

[Paul W]

Information is information, and truth is truth, wherever you find it. Besides, it seems to me that pulling something out of the rubble that is beneficial to humanity would give some positive meaning to the victims' deaths.

I totally agree with you, but it seems a lot of people don't.

[drkitten]

I've often wondered if anything useful came out of those experiments.

Unfortunately, yes. (or perhaps, fortunately, yes, depending on your point of view) Some of our best data on how humans react to hypothermia and specifically to drowning comes from that data; we have a much better understanding of how the mammalian diving reflex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex) works in humans as a result. It's a real problem for medical ethicists. One of the most effective methods of treating hypothermia was discovered by a Nazi scientist named Sigmund Rascher. By putting such patients into a hot water bath instead of the passive rewarming that had been standard practice at that time, survival went way up.

Basically, accident victims will often be colder and more seriously injured than we can ethically subject volunteers to. How do we treat those victims?

Similarly, the Nazi data can be used to help design better survival suits, or more prosaically to help search-and-rescue teams estimate the probability that a capsized boater is still alive.

[aggle-rithm]

The most useful thing that came out of this horrifying episode was the drawing up of an international ethics code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code) for medical experimentation on humans. Surprisingly, such a code hadn't existed before.

I'm sure no one thought it was necessary before then. "Don't be a Frankensteinian monster when doing medical experiments on humans" must have seemed like a no-brainer.

[Eddie Dane]

I understand that the Japanese went completely overboard on doing test on humans during WWII.

You might want to look into that also.

And much overlooked:
The German colonial rule in Namibia.
Which has such wonderful aspects as genocide, concentration camps and medical experiments on humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

I wonder when saggy comes along to claim that the international media are controlled by Herero tribesmen and it is all a lie.

[Crossbow]

My wife is working on a paper that discusses medical expermients with attention to the negligence and irresponsiblity of some doctors to obtain useful data.

She wants to use the Nazi's as her prime example.

I've heard of some of the appalling experiments that the Nazi's performed on prisoners...such as hypothermia testing and irradiating genitals to induce infertility...but is there documentation of others?

Are there any websites that go into details about what the Nazi's did and what kind of "tests" were done?

Just to summarize the several other excellent posts in this thread, ...

The Nazis were clearly the leader in the field of human experimentation and there is considerable documentation about this fact.

The Japanese did some human experimentation as well, but to a much lesser extent. However, this fact is well documented as well.

And while there were other dictatorships as well (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.), however these did not get terribly involved with human experimentation; I expect that they needed human labor far more than they needed human medical research, and that is why human experimentation was so limited.

Therefore, the best thing to do is focus your research on Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

[Sabretooth]

I understand that the Japanese went completely overboard on doing test on humans during WWII.

You might want to look into that also.

I'll have to check that out. I remember reading reports about widespread cannibalism among them (of which my Grandfather witnessed the aftermath), but I didn't know about experiments. I'll have to hit up Wiki.


And much overlooked:
The German colonial rule in Namibia.
Which has such wonderful aspects as genocide, concentration camps and medical experiments on humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

I wonder when saggy comes along to claim that the international media are controlled by Herero tribesmen and it is all a lie.

Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at this, too. :)

[drkitten]

And while there were other dictatorships as well (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.), however these did not get terribly involved with human experimentation; I expect that they needed human labor far more than they needed human medical research, and that is why human experimentation was so limited.

Medical experimentation under Beria in Stalinist Russia is also well-documented. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Soviet_secret_services)

[ponderingturtle]

I'm sure no one thought it was necessary before then. "Don't be a Frankensteinian monster when doing medical experiments on humans" must have seemed like a no-brainer.

So how about Pasture, he was flagrantly unethical by modern standards, but people cared less about orphans then.

[jakesteele]

I've often wondered if anything useful came out of those experiments.

A bunch of years ago there was a big stink about using the results of their hypothermia experiments. Apparently, they produced a lot of very useful data that our scientists wanted to use, but the Jews wanted it banned for obvious reasons on their part.

[Maus]

The US Public Health Service sponsored some human medical experiments in the late 1940's

You can look up the Tuskegee Syphilis Study for more information.

I know it's not Nazis but it may be used to show contrasts/similarities.

-Maus

[Roboramma]

I'm sure no one thought it was necessary before then. "Don't be a Frankensteinian monster when doing medical experiments on humans" must have seemed like a no-brainer.

Well, it may never have reached such extremes, but I don't think that it's that simple. Here's a quote from the linked wiki article on Nazi human experimentation:
The issue of informed consent had previously been controversial in German medicine in 1900, when Dr. Albert Neisser infected patients (mainly prostitutes) with syphilis without their consent.

[Simon39759]

From what I recall from reading a book (I think it might have been 'Nazi doctors') the most useful results were in the field of rescuing pilots, as mentioned, a better flotation device maintaining the head above water and some good finding on the best way to treat hypothermia.

The rest was mostly useless.
Also, your wife probably ought to mention the Tuskegee experiment. It was truly bad in its own right and did happen more recently in the US.

[Craig4]

If you read "The Nazi Doctors" there was a lot of shear quackery (really vile, evil quackery) going on with Nazi research. There was some bizarre stuff with twins and eye color. Not much of it really had or has actual applications.

The British were doing their on studies with hypothermia at the time but slower going (what with not being able to kill their subjects and all). It's not like the Nazis made some great breakthrough. The British pretty much figured out the same thing.

[kleinjahr]

As I understand it, much of our knowledge of nutritional requirements originated in Nazi ``experiments``. From their point of view, it was useful to know how little to feed the victims but get the most work out of them.

[Travis]

I'm not really sure how it is unethical to use the data once it is obtained. Certainly you don't want it to happen again but the data is just data. It's already there so ignoring it wouldn't undo the horrors that generated it.

[CORed]

This, together with the recent use of data from Nazi research into the effects of phosgene gas, has proven controversial and presents an ethical dilemma for modern physicians who do not agree with the methods used to obtain these data.

I really don't get this. While I of course think it's beyond deplorable that these experiments were done, given that they were done and that information gained from them is useful in saving the lives or alleviating the suffering of people who need help now, why wouldn't you use the information? Allowing people to suffer or die because you don't approve of how the information was obtained won't help the (mostly dead) people who suffered or died in the Nazi experiments.

[CORed]

The design of the modern life jacket which keeps the back of the head out of the water came partially from their experiments on Russian POW's. The British were figuring this out on their own with their studies on pilots rescued from the North Sea.

Did they really need to drown people to figure out that a life jacket works better if it keeps the head out of water?

[caniswalensis]

google "Unit 731"

[drkitten]

Did they really need to drown people to figure out that a life jacket works better if it keeps the head out of water?

The back of the head? Yes.

One key aspect of hypothermia research that was more or less ignored until the 1940s is how and where heat is lost from the body. (As a matter of fact, the US Army did a very extensive study of that in the 1950s precisely because they realized that they were possibly going to send a lot of troops into a very very cold place and didn't want to be defeated by General Winter like everyone else who had invaded Russia since the dawn of time.) While it's obvious to any damn fool that you need to keep the face enough above water to allow the person to breathe, the idea that you get substantially greater survivability when the back of the head is forcibly held out of water too was a genuine breakthrough.

And, yes, one key aspect about increasing survivability was increasing survivability past the point where volunteers would be expected to stop. When soldiers passed out from hypothermia, the attending physicians would generally -- and sensibly -- stop the tests. Unfortunately, there weren't any attending physicians around the actual downed pilots who were freezing to death in the North Sea.

[KingMerv00]

Why would anyone be opposed to using the data?

Are they also opposed to using murder cases to move forensic science forward?

Are we allowed to use the wreckage of the twin towers to build other stuff?

Where would it end?

[whatthebutlersaw]

She isn't allowed to use Wiki as a source for her papers...but I had a head full of dumb this morning and totally forgot that the articles are sourced to points that she can use. Thanks for helping point out my dumbness, Aepervius! :D

At least you noticed it once it was pointed out. I spent two hours I will never get back on a Swedish moron board trying to explain to some ninnie that "Yes, your teacher is correct, you can't use the Wikipedia article as your source, but you can check the sources for the article and see if they look reputable."

Did. Not. Compute.
"They lie at Wiki".
"There is a risk, yes, but if the article has sources you can check out the sources."
"But they lie at Wiki."
"Actually, most articles are well researched, written in good faith and better up to date than most. You should question all articles you read, no matter where they are published, and check the source material if you can. And then make up your mind."
"But they ALWAYS lie on Wiki."

...

...

...

You can lead the Komvux*-for-the-student-benefit-Bromma-mamma to knowledge, but you can't make her get it.



* Swedish adult education for high school drop outs. An excellent opportunity for those who dropped out over personal matters or sheer school exhaustion.

[Travis]

It is only very, very rarely that I come across any errors in Wikipedia. I'm not sure where people get the idea that it is just full of lies.

[caniswalensis]

Why would anyone be opposed to using the data?

Are they also opposed to using murder cases to move forensic science forward?

Are we allowed to use the wreckage of the twin towers to build other stuff?

Where would it end?

All good points, but it is an emotional view, not one based on logic.

[Plat]

nazi zombies?!?

[blutoski]

It is only very, very rarely that I come across any errors in Wikipedia. I'm not sure where people get the idea that it is just full of lies.

I think maybe it depends on the person's subject matter expertise. I focus on healthfraud, and a lot of the subjects I monitor are merely ads created by the manufacturer or a distributor.

I don't correct them for two reasons:

there are not enough hours in the day as it is
it would likely escalate and we'd be back where we started but with a higher level of maintenance effort - right now they have limited resources dedicated, but if I up the ante, they could hire more staff to keep ahead of me - and they're the ones monetizing the wikipedia subject so can keep adding more resources

[blutoski]

All good points, but it is an emotional view, not one based on logic.

Sure it is. Emotion is not the opposite of logical. Illogical is the opposite of logical. Or more accurately, probably fallacious.

Emotional decisions are not necessarily irrational. Emotions inform a logical decision and can be premises.

eg: Titus Andronicus makes me depressed, and I don't like seeing depressing plays, so I decided to see another play instead. Pretty logical.

I'm sure my late mom's skin would [make a fine poncho (http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2006/8/23/how-to-fake-a-smile.html)], but wearing it around the office would seriously impact my relationship with coworkers.

[MikeSun5]

I'll have to check that out. I remember reading reports about widespread cannibalism among them (of which my Grandfather witnessed the aftermath), but I didn't know about experiments. I'll have to hit up Wiki.

If you're looking for the Nazi-esque Japanese atrocities, you can probably start with "Unit 731."

Really, really nasty stuff. You've been warned....

[MikeSun5]

I've heard of some of the appalling experiments that the Nazi's performed on prisoners...such as hypothermia testing and irradiating genitals to induce infertility...but is there documentation of others?

I've been to Dachau (worst "vacation" idea EVER) and seen the pictures... they most definitely did more terrible experiments than that. Experiments with infection, vivisections on humans, and other absurdities. Instead of searching for individual experiments, maybe search for concentration camps or German doctors during the time.

As horrible and sick as these experiments were, the stuff that the Nazis and Unit 731 did to people yielded an enormous wealth of medical knowledge. Irony is frickin twisted sometimes. :boggled:

[caniswalensis]

Sure it is. Emotion is not the opposite of logical. Illogical is the opposite of logical. Or more accurately, probably fallacious.

Emotional decisions are not necessarily irrational. Emotions inform a logical decision and can be premises.

eg: Titus Andronicus makes me depressed, and I don't like seeing depressing plays, so I decided to see another play instead. Pretty logical.

I'm sure my late mom's skin would [make a fine poncho (http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2006/8/23/how-to-fake-a-smile.html)], but wearing it around the office would seriously impact my relationship with coworkers.

I don't know why you are saying this to me. I never implied that emotion is the opposite of logic.

I merely said that people who do not wish the data collected from nazi atrocities to be put to good use are basing that opinion on emotion.

It's fine if you disagree, but why not support your disagreement by providing some logical reasons for not using the data. Don't just put words in my mouth. :)