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daenku32
8th December 2010, 08:38 AM
So, real back breaking work creates wealth. That's the general assumption. Obviously you can "gain wealth" or even "create wealth" without actually doing back breaking work. Something that involves being a self-employed programmer, perhaps. Or financial analyst. Or insurance sales person..

But in most general cases it's result of an activity that involves low level workers and the owners of the capital. Think of manufacturing or fast food. In both situations you tend to have a very large difference in the amount of wealth the different types of individuals posses. One argument for this is that the ones with the greater wealth are just better at handling it. However, income is what generates personal wealth, and here is where I see something that I think is already a problem now, and will only become a worse:
While the worker adds X dollars (or Y% increase) to the value of the inputs, their share of this addition is deteriorating.

Let's say that in a reference scenario which is considered "healthy", a $100 increase in the value of the inputs due to the work done is divided so that the worker gets $50, and the capital owner gets another $50. The capital owner then uses their $50 to pay for other external costs. But after doing so, still have enough income to make their venture financially desirable.

But now the market changes, the workers' wages suddenly decrease due to a recession. While the work they do still adds $100 to the value of the inputs, the worker's wages decline. The worker only gets $30 now, while the capital owner gets $70. The capital owner sees the benefit from this (and ignores the long term, because in the long term they are dead, or retired with a large sack of cash) and does not seek to reverse it. While the workers have seen a reduction in their share of the profit, the capital owner has seen an increase and has no incentive to reverse course.

Now the capital owner should however face competition because the venture allows greater profits. But, since so many workers have had too small income to accumulate their own wealth, and current situation causes them to accumulate even less wealth, their access to necessary funds to compete with the capital owner is diminished. The worker still has to compete in a market where large competition exists, but the capital owner does not. The other alternative is other capital owners, but the chances are there are very few who understand the work involved in the venture. The original capital owner is protected from competition. Due to the lack of competition there is no self correcting mechanism and the workers chances of seeing their share of their work's surplus regain its existing share is gone permanently.

So, under the system the workers will only continue a downward spiral as the lack of competition on the top causes inefficiencies and demands for even greater returns on the rapidly increasing wealth of the capital owner. And the only changes you see, with a extremely tiny exceptions, is the occasional move from a capital owner to the worker class, and no movement from the worker class into the capital owner class. The income and wealth divide continues to grow leading to stagnate economy in which the workers starve, while the capital owners believe their success was entirely the result of hard work, and not the structural changes within the society.

BobTheCoward
8th December 2010, 09:04 AM
You used the work efficient. It sounds like this system may still be economically efficient, you just don't like it.

For one, if the employer pays more to his or her employees, he or she is worse off. That violates one of the rules about making a system more economically efficient.

madurobob
8th December 2010, 09:05 AM
"Welcome to the working week. I know it don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you..."

You left out the part about political parties fomenting fear and persuading workers to vote against their own best interests. because, its at the ballot box where the all are equal and a coalition of workers could easily tilt the scales more in their favor - at least for a while.

blutoski
15th December 2010, 09:03 AM
daenku32 appears to be summarizing some recurring themes in [Capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital)]. In particular the concepts of surplus value, commodity consumers' disposable incomes being crowded out by owners' profits, and meritocratic class mobility.

I'm just not sure if there's a question here?

daenku32
16th December 2010, 11:18 AM
daenku32 appears to be summarizing some recurring themes in [Capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital)]. In particular the concepts of surplus value, commodity consumers' disposable incomes being crowded out by owners' profits, and meritocratic class mobility.

I'm just not sure if there's a question here?

I honestly haven't read it yet, but I'm starting to feel like making it a little holiday reading.

AvalonXQ
16th December 2010, 11:54 AM
But now the market changes, the workers' wages suddenly decrease due to a recession. While the work they do still adds $100 to the value of the inputs, the worker's wages decline.

I've bolded the problem part. If I'm not mistaken, the problem in a recession is that "value added" is no longer $100.
Using McDonald's as an example, the "inputs" are the uncooked food and the "value added" depends on how much food the restaurant can sell. If fewer meals are purchased, then the same eight hours spent working only provides $60 worth of value, which is why the worker is only paid $30.
The mistaken assumption is that somehow the capital owner pockets more money in a recession. In practice, worker wages are often less responsive to economic conditions than owner profits. So the worker still makes $50 and the capital owner only pockets $10 (or maybe worker $40 and manager $20).

blutoski
16th December 2010, 01:35 PM
One other incorrect assumption is that class mobility is important to competition.

Realistically, a small pool of owners can compete in multiple markets by allocating capital and hiring new management.

I'm no longer surprised by some of my clients who have so much on the go. Just earlier I was working with a guy who owns four restaurant franchises (two Nandos, a Manchu Wok, and a Quizno's), a hardware store and tool rental service, three flower shops, and he imports special pastas and grains to distribute to boutique shops across Canada.

blutoski
16th December 2010, 02:17 PM
I honestly haven't read it yet, but I'm starting to feel like making it a little holiday reading.

Get an annotated edition: a lot of economists have been able to document what components of Marx/Engels' model remain in use today vs the ones that have been found unsupportable.

Like Origin of Species.
Genius, but we know more now and some of the ideas look quaint.

ThermionicScott
17th December 2010, 10:50 AM
Get an annotated edition: a lot of economists have been able to document what components of Marx/Engels' model remain in use today vs the ones that have been found unsupportable.

I've been meaning to read some Marx/Engels... do you have a favorite annotated version?

- Scott

blutoski
21st December 2010, 05:15 PM
I've been meaning to read some Marx/Engels... do you have a favorite annotated version?

- Scott

I'm sorry but I don't really have a good recommendation, because I've fallen behind. I did a bliz of readings in the 1990s (in an attempt to balance all the management practice books I was reading) but I'm sure there's a fresh perspective in books written in the 21st century.

One relatively new book (revised 2007) that I think would be accessible is David McLellan's "Marxism after Marx" which describes how modern post-Lenninist Communists have adjusted over time to become better described as "neo-Marxists".