overrated rock/pop legends

[varwoche]

Nominees for most overrated legends:

Bob Dylan
Jim Morrison
Grateful Dead
David Bowie (the winner)

Old joke: What did the deadhead say when he ran out of drugs? Sh*t, this music sucks.

Most underrated: Steely Dan

varwoche

[Sundog]

Brian Eno. The guy who convinced a generation that turning on the machines and twiddling with the knobs was music.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Sundog
Brian Eno. The guy who convinced a generation that turning on the machines and twiddling with the knobs was music.
Yes!

And how can I have forgotten Velvet Underground / Lou Reed?

[Sundog]

Prince
Robert Fripp
John Fogerty
Carl Palmer
Jerry - I mean - Peter Sinfield
DEVO
Dweezil Zappa
Jerry Garcia
The Band
Chris Squire
Trevor Rabin
[insert new wave band here]

:D Just trying to cause a little trouble...

[Mark]

Originally posted by varwoche
Nominees for most overrated legends:

Old joke: What did the deadhead say when he ran out of drugs? Sh*t, this music sucks.

Most underrated: Steely Dan

varwoche

A joke almost universally told by people who have never actually heard a Grateful Dead record.

Most overrated: Led Zeppelin, hands down the worst major label band ever. Jimmy Page couldn't even tune his bloody guitar on several recordings. Robert Plant couldn't sing on key of you held a gun to his head. Dopey lyrics, sloppy playing. The best thing I can say about them is that John Paul Jones and John Bonham deserved better than this dreck.

How can you call Steely Dan underrated when they have sold (at rough count) 17 bazillion records, been played on the radio incessantly, and been favorably reviewed in just about every publication known to man?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mark



How can you call Steely Dan underrated when they have sold (at rough count) 17 bazillion records, been played on the radio incessantly, and been favorably reviewed in just about every publication known to man?

Not to mention a Grammy!

[Mark]

Originally posted by Sundog


Not to mention a Grammy!

Interestingly, I don't think the public or the press have overrated John Fogerty...but I do think he has. He should win a prize for most inflated ego; it's a wonder he can get his head through doorways. I like his music, though.

Edited to add:
So, what's up with your tour, anyway? Where? When? With whom? And why haven't you invited me? Enquiring minds want to know...

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mark


Interestingly, I don't think the public or the press have overrated John Fogerty...but I do think he has. He should win a prize for most inflated ego; it's a wonder he can get his head through doorways. I like his music, though.

I have to admit I didn't put a lot of thought into that list, I mainly wanted to slip the Fripper's name in there... :D

[Mark]

Originally posted by Sundog


I have to admit I didn't put a lot of thought into that list, I mainly wanted to slip the Fripper's name in there... :D

As you know, you're asking for trouble with that one on this board! Much as I agree with it...

[Foofer]

Bruce Springsteen. I just don't get it.

[ASRomatifoso]

Eric Clapton is easily the most overrated.

Tom Waits the most underrated. One of the best songwriters this country has ever produced and he is known by relatively few people.

[Voob]

Well, while we're causing trouble. I'll add another vote for Fripp.

And, I can't help it.....
Frank Zappa

I like music that stirs emotion.

[No Answers]

I remember laughing out loud when the stage announcer asked for a big hand for Stevie "guitar" Miller. I thought, "Yah, he owns quite a number of guitars." Deal-with-the-Devil overrated.
It was an excellent Dead show after he finally left the stage.

Jerry could suck like a Hoover, but some nights he was amazing.


I will be snobbish and get all in a huff, how can you say such things about Zappa, and Fripp. How daaaaaare youuuu

Although I love him, Carlos Santana is overrated. His playing, while often wonderful, is limited.

Wynton Marsalis. I have never liked his tone or his playing.

Maynard Ferguson's chops are almost laughable, I feel. He relies heavily on chromatic ascensions.

Any band that's achieved big-numbers popularity within the last, oh, say ten years.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Mark
How can you call Steely Dan underrated when they have sold (at rough count) 17 bazillion records, been played on the radio incessantly, and been favorably reviewed in just about every publication known to man?
That's just how good they are! ;)

varwoche

[Evolver]

Kurt Cobain
Sex Pistols
Bowie
Eno
Springsteen
Billy Joel
Elton John
Janis Joplin
Dylan
Elvis (both of them)
Talking Heads
Eurythmics
Just about anyone who flourished in the 80's

Fripp & Zappa? You heathens!

[Mark]

Originally posted by No Answers
I remember laughing out loud when the stage announcer asked for a big hand for Stevie "guitar" Miller. I thought, "Yah, he owns quite a number of guitars." Deal-with-the-Devil overrated.
It was an excellent Dead show after he finally left the stage.

Jerry could suck like a Hoover, but some nights he was amazing.


I will be snobbish and get all in a huff, how can you say such things about Zappa, and Fripp. How daaaaaare youuuu

Although I love him, Carlos Santana is overrated. His playing, while often wonderful, is limited.

Wynton Marsalis. I have never liked his tone or his playing.

Maynard Ferguson's chops are almost laughable, I feel. He relies heavily on chromatic ascensions.

Any band that's achieved big-numbers popularity within the last, oh, say ten years.

We've talked about this before...I agree about Jerry Garcia...the best or the worst, depending on when you caught him. Of course, much of that had to do with his willingness to take risks.

Fripp and Zappa: I find myself studying their music rather than enjoying it much. As voob said, no emotion in it. Actually Fripp once said that very thing about his own playing:Technical with no passion.

[varwoche]

The surprising level of enlightenment on this board emboldens me to add: Neil Young

And regardless one's opinion on Brian Wilson, when I heard Tom Petty (on Fresh Air) describe Wilson as a musical genius of Beethoven stature, I almost drove into a tree.

[crimresearch]

Fascinating replies...

Barbara Streisand, David Hasselhoff, Michael Jackson, ABBA, Sonny & Cher, Tiny Tim, Lawrence Welk, Wayne Newton,and their ilk don't rate a mention, but Santana , Zappa, Reed, et al. are overated?

Hmmmm....maybe I've been going about this listening thing all wrong.


Naaaaah!

:p


Paul

[coalesce]

In no particular order:

Sarah Brightman, Andrew Lloyd Weber, Bryan Adams, Grateful Dead, Billy Joel (post Nylon Curtain), Elton John (post 1980), The Doors, Pearl Jam (zero growth), Tom Petty, Brian Wilson (the only similarity between he and Beethoven is bipedalism), Anthony Keidis.

I'll think of a few more.

Michael

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Mark


A joke almost universally told by people who have never actually heard a Grateful Dead record.



Actually, it's told by those (like me) who have. :(

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Sundog
Prince
Robert Fripp
John Fogerty
Carl Palmer
Jerry - I mean - Peter Sinfield
DEVO
Dweezil Zappa
Jerry Garcia
The Band
Chris Squire
Trevor Rabin
[insert new wave band here]

:D Just trying to cause a little trouble...

I didn't know Dweezil Zappa was a rock/pop legend. And I've never heard of Peter Sinfield.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Evolver
Fripp & Zappa? You heathens!

I wasn't aware that Fripp and Zappa had ever been rated, let alone overrated.

[Ove]

Actually, it's told by those (like me) who have.


Well if you had not smoked/drunk anything you have my deepest sympathies.;)

As for nominations i'll second Bowie anytime. Here's this guy: "Hmmm, i can't really sing in key in fact my voice i very thin what'll i do........ I KNOW, i'll dress up in funny clothes and wear a ton of makeup, then nobody will notice":D :D :D

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mark


How can you call Steely Dan underrated when they have sold (at rough count) 17 bazillion records, been played on the radio incessantly, and been favorably reviewed in just about every publication known to man?

Steely Dan, while they have produced a lot of good tracks, have put out some awful time wasters as well.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


I didn't know Dweezil Zappa was a rock/pop legend. And I've never heard of Peter Sinfield.

Sinfield was King Crimson's lyricist & stage lighting specialist. He then did the same for ELP. He set the tone for much of the weird prog-lyrics to come. Was this over-rated? I guess you have to take the lyrics in context with the style of the time.

He did have one album in the early 70's, a forgettable work called "Still". More recently, he's written for (gasp!) Celine Dion, of all people.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Mark

Fripp and Zappa: I find myself studying their music rather than enjoying it much. As voob said, no emotion in it. Actually Fripp once said that very thing about his own playing:Technical with no passion.

Can't agree with you here. At least not completely. Fripp since "Discipline" has been coasting, leaving Belew to be the heart of King Crimson, but much of his previos work sends chills down my spine.

Zappa as well, has been known to play an amazing solo (Black Napkins...). I think he understood his limitations as a rhythm guitarist, since he usually had hired guns to play those parts. I believe he would have preferred to be remembered as a composer anyway. And if you listen to his serios musical compositions, the passion is there.

I get the impression that a lot of you don't respect a musician if they play fast. Yes, ther are a lot of players who just rip through scales. But there are many (McLaughlin, DiMeola and the like) who do more than scales. What's the problem? If an artist has more colors to choose from his pallette, why not use them?
And no, it's not always wanking. It often fits. And some of us listeners love it.

[Mark]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Actually, it's told by those (like me) who have. :(

Really. And you feel it applies to records like "In the Dark," "Built to Last", "Without a Net," "Terrapin Station", "Live from the Mars Hotel", and "Made in Heaven?"

Well, if so, I can only disagree.

I wonder, though. Since the Dead are pretty much universally panned by critics, and almost never played on the radio, how do you define "overrated?"

[Mark]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Steely Dan, while they have produced a lot of good tracks, have put out some awful time wasters as well.

Well, I never said I was a fan. Actually, I don't really enjoy that sort of soft, jazz pop kind of thing at all. I like parts of "Can't Buy a Thrill, though."

[HarryKeogh]

most overrated...The Doors.

man, they were awful. So sad that Led Zep had to open for them (and not the other way around) a few times. I can say without any trace of hyperbole that it was perhaps the grossest injustice in human history...ever.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
most overrated...The Doors.

man, they were awful. So sad that Led Zep had to open for them (and not the other way around) a few times. I can say without any trace of hyperbole that it was perhaps the grossest injustice in human history...ever.

"I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer."

I knew too many people that heard this and decided that this was a cool way to behave.

Some of the worst parties I went to peaked with a bunch of morons singing along with L.A. Woman.

[volant]

Most overrated:
The Beatles

There, I said it, now kill me.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by volant
Most overrated:
The Beatles

There, I said it, now kill me.

blasphemer!!!

[Crow T. Robot]

Sting. Releases what is apparently the same album every year, and somehow receives rave reviews and awards for doing it. He should re-join the Police.

[Mark]

Originally posted by volant
Most overrated:
The Beatles

There, I said it, now kill me.

I tend to agree. Much of what they are credited with innovating, others did first. I think their real secret was, frankly, George Martin, plus a very effective publicity machine.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mark


I tend to agree. Much of what they are credited with innovating, others did first. I think their real secret was, frankly, George Martin, plus a very effective publicity machine.

George was a genius, but he really liked his Liverpuddlian friends, and admired their talent.

There is a lot of sh!te in the Beatles collection of songs, (Blue Jay Way comes to mind), but they did invent the sound that made them famous. That opening chord for "Hard Days Night" is a classic.

Now, nothing exceeds like excess, and there is endless amounts of that around the Beatles, but I don't think that they ever saw it as being something that they sought. They came to hate touring, because no one actually seemed to listen to their songs. When they broke up and many of their fans were distraught, they pointed out that if anyone wanted them, all they had to do was put on a recording and there they were again. John Lennon wrote plenty of songs about his skepticism of the Beatles phenomenon.

Their durability, though, is the true testimony of their talent. It is the true art that survives through time. I doubt that anyone looks back to the good old tunes of the Bay City Rollers, for example.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Crow T. Robot
Sting. Releases what is apparently the same album every year, and somehow receives rave reviews and awards for doing it. He should re-join the Police.

It is truly sad to listen to the old Police stuff and see what Sting has come to. I read a newspaper article on a journalist who went to have dinner with him once. He has become a remote, isoloted, toffy, snobbish, bore. He sits at his dinner table in his mansion and treats the waiters like they are just hired slaves and not people.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Fascinating replies...

Barbara Streisand, David Hasselhoff, Michael Jackson, ABBA, Sonny & Cher, Tiny Tim, Lawrence Welk, Wayne Newton,and their ilk don't rate a mention, but Santana , Zappa, Reed, et al. are overated?

Hmmmm....maybe I've been going about this listening thing all wrong.


Naaaaah!

:p


Paul

ABBA and Cher in the same sentence, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Steve Miller (without a doubt the worst ever)
Frank Zappa
Grateful Dead (and yes I've listened )
Aerosmith
Pink Floyd ( although I love Gilmore )
Santana
The Who ( all I can hear is Chuck Berry )
Dave Matthews
Dire Straits
Jimmy Buffet
Steely Dan



listed in no order or importance

[varwoche]

[SNIPPED QUOTE]Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
Frank Zappa
Steely Dan
[/QUOTE]
Heresy I say! Becker and Fagan (aka Steely Dan) are the greatest song writers of this generation (within the bounds of the thread topic). Aja is arguably the greatest record of all time, and their new one (Everything Must Go) is darn close. Never has there been "pop" music of this artistry and sophistication, period. And then you get these wicked lyrics as icing on the cake.

And sorry buffoons, Zappa in no way belongs on this list either. ;)

varwoche

[coalesce]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


It is truly sad to listen to the old Police stuff and see what Sting has come to. I read a newspaper article on a journalist who went to have dinner with him once. He has become a remote, isoloted, toffy, snobbish, bore. He sits at his dinner table in his mansion and treats the waiters like they are just hired slaves and not people.

Could not agree more!! If there was ever a case of musical castration, it's Sting. He's allowed his image as the "jet-set's" musical god to overtake his talent, which he has scads of, but perhaps feels it's beneath him to exert himself anymore. Why try when everyone knows they're supposed to fall all over him because he's just so suave and sophistimicated and is so much better than you?

I remember last year when the Concorde was making it's final flight from NYC to Europe, and Sting was on board, serving champagne. He commented that the SST was so wonderful, that it was like a time machine. On "The Daily Show" (a hysterical political show here in the US), the host John Stewart said, "If it's a such a good time machine, could it bring us back to September 10th?!?"

BTW, do you have a link to the newspaper article? I'd love to read the rest of it.

Another one for overrated: Lenny Kravitz.

Michael

[Mark]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
Steve Miller (without a doubt the worst ever)
Frank Zappa
Grateful Dead (and yes I've listened )
Aerosmith
Pink Floyd ( although I love Gilmore )
Santana
The Who ( all I can hear is Chuck Berry )
Dave Matthews
Dire Straits
Jimmy Buffet
Steely Dan



listed in no order or importance

Steve Miller: I agree

Frank Zappa: Overrated by whom, since he never achieved any real mainsteam acceptance?

Grateful Dead: What have you listened to, and what don't you like about it? And, again, what do you mean by overrrated since amost eveyone hates them anyway?

Aerosmith: I like 'em but I feel guilty about it.

Pink Floyd: I agree.

Santana: No opinion.

The Who: Your "Chuck Berry" comment simply boggles the mind, since out of their entire recorded output there are no more than a handful of songs that use Chuck's riffs at all. Are you sure you didn't misfile your records somehow?

Dave Matthews: Good music; can't understand the problem. Overrated how? By whom?

Dire Straits: Pleasant enough music, but I agree. Very derivative of Richard Thompson...who simply cannot be overrated.

Jimmy Buffet: Mostly just fun, good time music that doesn't pretend to be anything else. Where is the problem? Lighten up, dude.

Steely Dan: Can't comment, since the soft jazz genre doesn't appeal to me anyway. Are they good at that? I don't know; probably they are.

Btw, I saw Marilyn Manson's interview in "Bowling for Columbine." I was pleasantly surprised by how intelligent he is...he made several quite witty observations. That said, it made me kind of sad, really, since if he had any real talent at all he wouldn't have to rely on cheesy theatrics to get noticed. He seems smart enough to know that.

[Sundog]

Oh dear Mark, something we disagree about. ;)

Originally posted by Mark



Steve Miller: I agree



Ever hear "Number 5"? I used to like Miller a lot before he got popular with all that drivel he ended up producing.

Steve Miller Band #5 is still one of my all-time favorite albums.



Frank Zappa: Overrated by whom, since he never achieved any real mainsteam acceptance?



Musicians. And he wasn't. Some folks either haven't heard the "good stuff" or just don't get it.




Aerosmith: I like 'em but I feel guilty about it.



Just wash your hands afterward.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Sundog
Oh dear Mark, something we disagree about. ;)



Ever hear "Number 5"? I used to like Miller a lot before he got popular with all that drivel he ended up producing.

Steve Miller Band #5 is still one of my all-time favorite albums.



Musicians. And he wasn't. Some folks either haven't heard the "good stuff" or just don't get it.



Just wash your hands afterward.

Actually, Sundog, we don't really disagree...I quite like the early Steve Miller band, when they were still fairly experimental. You know, before SM discovered he could make millions by writing and re-writing little pop ditties over and over again. I don't blame him for that (I'd have done the same thing), but I don't like listening to it, either.

Zappa: I don't know. I realize a tiny minority of people (a subset of musicians in general) worship at Frank's feet...I still have trouble translating that to "overrated." I have tremendous respect for his musical knowledge...but I always find myself studying his music, rather than actually enjoying it. And a lot of his scatalogical lyrics are simply lame, unnecessary and therefore annoying to me.

Aerosmith: I will. And I'll use an anti-bacterial soap!

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mark


And a lot of his scatalogical lyrics are simply lame, unnecessary and therefore annoying to me.



Totally agree. I reject pretty much everything after Joe's Garage except the instrumental stuff.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Sundog


Totally agree. I reject pretty much everything after Joe's Garage except the instrumental stuff.

Did you ever hear "Studio Tan?" There is a really interesting piece on there called "Geggery Peccary." Or would be interesting except it is completely ruined by an idiotic voice over that has nothing whatever to do with the music.

[crimresearch]

In the same manner that people think Randy Newman really does hate short people, or gays, or blacks, etc. from his lyrics, Zappa is often mistakenly associated with the first impressions his music leaves.
He was a master at piling sarcasm on top of irony on top of sardonic lyric content , so that it actually requires an effort to understand his intent to deride the social artifacts he slices and dices in his music.
The fact that he refused to make his material more accessible definitely cost him mainstream acceptance.

Many folks just don't care to work to get the acquired taste that Zappa can be, and settle for deriding the outer appearance.

Such folks will always be Pojama People.

Paul

[varwoche]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Such folks will always be Pojama People.
Paul
Roll them up, get them out of my way.

[Mark]

Originally posted by crimresearch
In the same manner that people think Randy Newman really does hate short people, or gays, or blacks, etc. from his lyrics, Zappa is often mistakenly associated with the first impressions his music leaves.
He was a master at piling sarcasm on top of irony on top of sardonic lyric content , so that it actually requires an effort to understand his intent to deride the social artifacts he slices and dices in his music.
The fact that he refused to make his material more accessible definitely cost him mainstream acceptance.

Many folks just don't care to work to get the acquired taste that Zappa can be, and settle for deriding the outer appearance.

Such folks will always be Pojama People.

Paul

Actually, since Frank never hesitated to express his disdain for his listeners' intelligence, I always assumed his lyrics were mainly there because he felt no one would pay attention otherwise. You know what? I'll be he was right.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by crimresearch

The fact that he refused to make his material more accessible definitely cost him mainstream acceptance.

Many folks just don't care to work to get the acquired taste that Zappa can be, and settle for deriding the outer appearance.

Such folks will always be Pojama People.

Paul

Oh piffle. What I object to is the stuff he did JUST to get some sort of commercial acceptance. What's the hidden meaning in Dynamo Humm? I think we all "get it".

Plenty of hardcore Zappa fans don't accept everything he did with the same reverence.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Mark


Did you ever hear "Studio Tan?" There is a really interesting piece on there called "Geggery Peccary." Or would be interesting except it is completely ruined by an idiotic voice over that has nothing whatever to do with the music.

The CD release of Sleep Dirt also has some beautiful music marred with annoying vocals. The LP versions are much better. On CD they can be heard in their proper splendor on Lather. What did he like about Lisa Popeil's voice, anyway?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Evolver

What did he like about Lisa Popeil's voice, anyway?

Snaffles the lids off of jars, bottles and cans.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Evolver


The CD release of Sleep Dirt also has some beautiful music marred with annoying vocals. The LP versions are much better.

While I agree with you about the LP version of Sleep Dirt, I do have to take exception with the large number of people who are decrying Zappa's music because of the vocals, or because of the indecency.

The following paragraphs are metaphorical and mythological:

One of the the things I really like about Zappa is that he never asked me to make a choice. He never told me to be in "now we're listening to serious music and gotta be serious" mode. He never told me "oh, this is just gonna be a stupid joke, like how the clarinets go "ha-ha-ha" in Till Eulenspiegel." Oh, it's not "serious music" any more, and we're allowed to laugh. And even when it seemed like he did, it always turned out different.

Zappa never asked me to make a distinction. He never asked me to turn off the "toilet humor" part of my brain and turn on the "hemidemisemiquaver" part of my brain. Perhaps uniquely.

I can listen to "Greggary Peccary" as a story with a movie score attached to it. I can listen to it as some good music with some vocals attached. I can hear it as both. It's my choice, based on what I concentrate on with my own personal brain.

Even something as overtly innocuous as Cruisin' with Reuben and the Jets, which is not my favorite, can be approached on a variety of levels.

Damn few composers/musicians do that. Actually, I can think of only one: Mozart, and he IMO didn't do as good a job.

[Kullervo]

One might make a case the Reuben was the most subversive record Zappa made. Imagine if it had been recorded in the fifties and received some serious airplay. The sixties might never have happened.

[Mark]

Originally posted by epepke


While I agree with you about the LP version of Sleep Dirt, I do have to take exception with the large number of people who are decrying Zappa's music because of the vocals, or because of the indecency.

The following paragraphs are metaphorical and mythological:

One of the the things I really like about Zappa is that he never asked me to make a choice. He never told me to be in "now we're listening to serious music and gotta be serious" mode. He never told me "oh, this is just gonna be a stupid joke, like how the clarinets go "ha-ha-ha" in Till Eulenspiegel." Oh, it's not "serious music" any more, and we're allowed to laugh. And even when it seemed like he did, it always turned out different.

Zappa never asked me to make a distinction. He never asked me to turn off the "toilet humor" part of my brain and turn on the "hemidemisemiquaver" part of my brain. Perhaps uniquely.

I can listen to "Greggary Peccary" as a story with a movie score attached to it. I can listen to it as some good music with some vocals attached. I can hear it as both. It's my choice, based on what I concentrate on with my own personal brain.

Even something as overtly innocuous as Cruisin' with Reuben and the Jets, which is not my favorite, can be approached on a variety of levels.

Damn few composers/musicians do that. Actually, I can think of only one: Mozart, and he IMO didn't do as good a job.

Or, one could say he couldn't focus very well. ;)

[Mark]

Originally posted by Kullervo
One might make a case the Reuben was the most subversive record Zappa made. Imagine if it had been recorded in the fifties and received some serious airplay. The sixties might never have happened.

Uh...I trust you are joking.

Guys, I like Zappa but let's keep a sense of proportion!

[epepke]

Originally posted by Mark


Or, one could say he couldn't focus very well. ;)

One could say that. I wouldn't.

[Beanbag]

Lynrd Skynrd, possibly the worst wailing Southern Rock band that ever made it to vinyl. I find them so disgusting I never bothered to learn how the band spelled their name.

The best thing that happened to Southern Rock was when they bought Free Bird 1.

Regards;
Beanbag

[Beanbag]

Frank Zappa is an acquired taste. Frankly, I don't care much for a lot of his work. His novelty songs are good for a quick grin, but wear thin after a while. I was pretty passe' on him until I came across "Twenty Small Cigars" on the album "Chunga's Revenge." I look on it as a materpiece in both its technical execution and for the restraint with which it is performed. It works because it is done simply and directly.

Regards;
Beanbag

[Voob]

Your "Chuck Berry" comment simply boggles the mind,

This reminded me to add:
Chuck Berry

(loved the Who though)

[Mark]

Originally posted by Voob


This reminded me to add:
Chuck Berry

(loved the Who though)

There is not a single electric guitar player who hasn't been directly or indirectly influenced by Chuck Berry...whether they know it or not. Or, as John Lennon said, "If you had to change the name of rock 'n' roll, you could call it Chuck Berry."

If you think all his music sounds the same, then you have only listened to a few of the bigger hits. His recorded output was amazingly eclectic, especially for someone recording in the '50s.

"Havana Moon" and "Downbound Train" for example, were years ahead of their time. Chuck Berry, Charlie Cristian, and T Bone Walker pretty much created it all...everything since is simply building on what they did.

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by Evolver

What did he like about Lisa Popeil's voice, anyway?

And what the h*ll did he see in Wild Man Fischer... for that matter...












Although I must confess, that I have every Wild Man Fischer LP...

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by Mark


There is not a single electric guitar player who hasn't been directly or indirectly influenced by Chuck Berry...whether they know it or not. Or, as John Lennon said, "If you had to change the name of rock 'n' roll, you could call it Chuck Berry."

If you think all his music sounds the same, then you have only listened to a few of the bigger hits. His recorded output was amazingly eclectic, especially for someone recording in the '50s.

"Havana Moon" and "Downbound Train" for example, were years ahead of their time. Chuck Berry, Charlie Cristian, and T Bone Walker pretty much created it all...everything since is simply building on what they did.

Not to mention "My Ding a Ling"... ;)

[TomStockholm]

Elvis Presley
Edith Piaf

didn't write their own stuff... ergo overrated.

But above all MORRISSEY...

I absolutely cannot understand why so many people whos taste I otherwise admire can get so hot for this load of crap.

As the great Jerry Sadowitz once said... (roughly)

"This is my impression of Morrissey... YOU ARE CRAP MORRISSEY!!!

Just my impression of him, you don't have to agree with me of course. But I know I am right.

They say "Morrissey helped me get out of my depression". No, you helped him get out of HIS depression. And you paid him for the privelege!"

[Mark]

Originally posted by TomStockholm


Although I must confess, that I have every Wild Man Fischer LP...

Not to mention "My Ding a Ling"... ;)

I like anyone who has those records. My favorite is "My Name is Larry." Classic.

Actually, "My Ding a Ling" (The original, not the early '70s version which is still pretty cute, though) is a good example of what I am talking about...that record, for its day, was really pushing the boundaries of what you could say on the radio.

[TomStockholm]

Originally posted by Mark


I like anyone who has those records. My favorite is "My Name is Larry." Classic.

Actually, "My Ding a Ling" (The original, not the early '70s version which is still pretty cute, though) is a good example of what I am talking about...that record, for its day, was really pushing the boundaries of what you could say on the radio.


I will have to root out the original 50s version of My Ding a Ling, it seems. You have aroused my curiosity.

I love "My name is Larrry as well". Although "Frank's got money in the bank, Frank has women he can spank" runs it pretty close.

[TomStockholm]

I see a couple of people have added their most underrated as well.

I submit Randy Newman and Jonathan Richman.

[Mark]

Originally posted by TomStockholm



I will have to root out the original 50s version of My Ding a Ling, it seems. You have aroused my curiosity.



I remember when I was very young, my older brother playing that record and my mother growling, "That's disgusting!" Made me want to listen to it all the more...

[Kullervo]

In the year of 1963
I was committed to the mental institution.

(I actually remember that stuff - what's wrong with me - "The Taster", "Merry go merry go merry go round"...)

the cast

Musicians
Wild Man Fischer: vocals, guitar
The Bizarre Percussion Ensemble: percussion
Kim Fowley: recitation
Rodney Bingenheimer: recitation
GTO's: vocal spots

Kim Fowley!

Now there's a great unsung hero of rock.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Mark


There is not a single electric guitar player who hasn't been directly or indirectly influenced by Chuck Berry...whether they know it or not. Or, as John Lennon said, "If you had to change the name of rock 'n' roll, you could call it Chuck Berry."

If you think all his music sounds the same, then you have only listened to a few of the bigger hits. His recorded output was amazingly eclectic, especially for someone recording in the '50s.

"Havana Moon" and "Downbound Train" for example, were years ahead of their time. Chuck Berry, Charlie Cristian, and T Bone Walker pretty much created it all...everything since is simply building on what they did.
Never ever ever put Chuck Berry, performance art innovator, in the same sentence with the great Charlie Christian, musical innovator.

[Mark]

Originally posted by varwoche

Never ever ever put Chuck Berry, performance art innovator, in the same sentence with the great Charlie Christian, musical innovator.

Uh...I gotta sputter a bit on that one. I don't think rock 'n' roll would exist in anything like its present form without either one of these great artists.

They were both musical innovators...OK, I grant you that CB adapted much of what he did from Johnnie Jonshon's piano playing. And if he hadn't, we wouldn't have had the same musical history...not by a long shot.

Besides, I'm sure Charlie Christian (I agree, a true artist, genius even) had his influences too. Nothing comes out of nothing.

[billydkid]

I think most of you were not around or do not remember what popular music was like - what kind of crap was on the radio when most of the ground breakers first started making records. If it wasn't for most of these people you call over rated you would still be listening to the Four Preps and Connie Francis on the radio. These people are still being directly copied by new bands every day. These people actually INVENTED the very music that you take forgranted every day. They created rock music and its many variations. Over rated? Come on!!!

[crimresearch]

Good point, billyd...

A little perspective would be useful here.

Elvis was overrated because he didn't compose his own stuff? Who ever said he was a legendary composer? He was legendary because he saved the world from their parent's music (before becoming your parent's music himself).

Chuck Berry is overrated because he wasn't wasn't Charlie Christian? Well Duhh!!! Who ever said that Chuck was famous for his single string melodic solos?

Frank Zappa is overrated because he wasn't accessible?
He was legendary for being inaccessible and deliberately obnoxious, and saving the world from another round of The Archies.

Carlos Santana's reputation was based on saving the world from another spate of guitar masturbators ala psychedelia, not for being the founder of speed metal.

Like or dislike anyone one you want for any reason you want, but at least get it right as to what they did, and don't hold them up to standards that have nothing to do with their celebrity.

Paul

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by Mark
Most overrated: Led Zeppelin, hands down the worst major label band ever. Jimmy Page couldn't even tune his bloody guitar on several recordings.
Quite possibly because he used the tuners as effects on songs like Dazed and Confused? Yeah, he was a pretty sloppy player who played the same riff over and over again on most of their tracks (but it was a good riff!), borrowed from older blues songs, etc...but he was a good guitarist. A bit silly, with his violin bow and everything, but good, if overrated.

Robert Plant couldn't sing on key of you held a gun to his head.

And his current appearance (http://www.mikeportnoy.com/media/pics/celebs/mphopp.jpg) frightens small children. :)
Nah, I think he was quite a good vocalist for a few years, before his voice just crapped out. I've heard bootlegs from the 70s even, and it's godawful. He was great at improvisation too , which isn't easy.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Nasarius

Quite possibly because he used the tuners as effects on songs like Dazed and Confused? Yeah, he was a pretty sloppy player who played the same riff over and over again on most of their tracks (but it was a good riff!), borrowed from older blues songs, etc...but he was a good guitarist. A bit silly, with his violin bow and everything, but good, if overrated.



And his current appearance (http://www.mikeportnoy.com/media/pics/celebs/mphopp.jpg) frightens small children. :)
Nah, I think he was quite a good vocalist for a few years, before his voice just crapped out. I've heard bootlegs from the 70s even, and it's godawful. He was great at improvisation too , which isn't easy.

Interesting word, borrowed. He plagiarized (stole) and lost in court. That said, I will admit he is/was a pretty phenomenal acoustic player. "Black Mountain Side" still amazes me.

If I heard him play in a teenage garage band, I admit, I would consider him pretty darn good. But as a guitarist who has received so much adulation...well, I just don't get it. Maybe it's just me.

Plant? Well, I haven't heard the specific bootlegs in question, so I'll have to take your word for it. I don't like his voice at all, but that's just subjective, not a reflection on his talent or lack of it. I realize many people find his voice quite pleasing.

I mean, what do I know? I like Tom Waits' voice!

[varwoche]

Originally posted by billydkid
I think most of you were not around or do not remember what popular music was like - what kind of crap was on the radio when most of the ground breakers first started making records. If it wasn't for most of these people you call over rated you would still be listening to the Four Preps and Connie Francis on the radio. These people are still being directly copied by new bands every day. These people actually INVENTED the very music that you take forgranted every day. They created rock music and its many variations. Over rated? Come on!!!
Let's not get too euphoric over inventing rock music. Not when during the same period there were Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, and Monk, seriously f***ing deep stuff, like a 9 course meal compared to a ding dong. <off soapbox>

[Kullervo]

Mark, did you ever read John Mendelson's reviews of the first and second Led Zeppelin albums in Rolling Stone years ago? They are among the funniest and most scathing I've ever read. Anthologized in "The Rolling Stone Record Reviews". I'd post them if I could find them and it wouldn't violate the copyright rules.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Mark, did you ever read John Mendelson's reviews of the first and second Led Zeppelin albums in Rolling Stone years ago? They are among the funniest and most scathing I've ever read. Anthologized in "The Rolling Stone Record Reviews". I'd post them if I could find them and it wouldn't violate the copyright rules.

Thanks for the tip; I'll look for the articles. JM is an interesting and funny writer...when he is not writing about The Kinks. When he does write about them, his IQ seems to drop about 50 points. Kinda weird!

I'll try the Rolling Stone web site.

[PhxHorn]

You can criticize a fair amount of things about Led Zep, and many of them might be on target, but they were still pretty damned amazing. The live DVD they released last year is probably the best damn live video I've ever seen, particularly the early stuff.

I not a guitarist, but I think it's a mistake to criticize someone for not being a virtuoso. Page and Plant are some of the most influential rock musicians of the last 30 years. Miles Davis was a horribly sloppy trumpet player, but he influenced countless musicians. It's not about technique, it's about creativity. There are plenty of guitarists playing in bars and doing million-note solos, but they can't write an original song to save their lives.

I'd say this is why the Doors, Floyd, and Eric Clapton are popular to this day.

FWI, Zep did lose a court battle a few years back, but it was about lyrical content. Plus, they came up with plenty of killer stuff on their own.

I've seen Plant many times, as well as the Page/Plant '95 and '98 tours, and they were all great shows, with a fair amount of improvisation.

I can personally do without U2, Springsteen, The Dead (saw them twice and was not impressed), REM, and the current crop of grunge bands.

[Mark]

Originally posted by PhxHorn

FWI, Zep did lose a court battle a few years back, but it was about lyrical content. Plus, they came up with plenty of killer stuff on their own.

I've seen Plant many times, as well as the Page/Plant '95 and '98 tours, and they were all great shows, with a fair amount of improvisation.



You need to pick up some Howlin' Wolf records.

For the record, I don't mind sloppy. The Faces were probably the sloppiest band of all time and I enjoyed them very much. But, for me, sloppy and incredibly pretentious is like fingernails on a chalk board...Elvira's fingernails, for that matter.

It's just a personal prejudice, I suppose. But if Led Zeppelin had ever come out and just said, "We're sloppy, out of tune, and off key, but, hey, we have a good time!" I could probably appreciate them on some level.

[PhxHorn]

You need to pick up some Howlin' Wolf records.

Why? I already know they used riffs from him. I didn't deny that Page had used musical ideas without crediting the authors. But a poster earlier had critized Page by mentioning a lawsuit Zep had lost, and I pointed out that the lawsuit was specifically about lyrical content, which Page had nothing to do with. As far as I know, this is the only such lawsuit they've lost. They cold probably lose one based on musical content, but it hasn't happened yet.

The first few bars of Stairway obviously come from the song Taurus, by Spirit, but no one can argue that Page and Plant didn't take that idea and come up with a their own song that was many times better.

if Led Zeppelin had ever come out and just said, "We're sloppy, out of tune, and off key, but, hey, we have a good time!" I could probably appreciate them on some level.

I always though that was pretty much their attitude. Page said a few years ago that what he lacked in technique, he tried to make up for with creativity.

I never saw them in person (I'm 36), but based on the dozens of bootlegs I've got, plus a fair amount of video, I'd say they were as tight as anyone from '69 thru '72. Tight but loose, as the saying goes. From '73 onward, when they were touring less often and Page was doing more drugs, things got a lot looser. But they still had their moments.

[Mark]

Originally posted by PhxHorn
You need to pick up some Howlin' Wolf records.

Why?
if Led Zeppelin had ever come out and just said, "We're sloppy, out of tune, and off key, but, hey, we have a good time!" I could probably appreciate them on some level.

I always though that was pretty much their attitude. Page said a few years ago that what he lacked in technique, he tried to make up for with creativity.



Well, if for no other reason, they are absolutely terrific! Howlin' Wolf was one of the true greats.

As far as attitude, in every interview I ever saw with these guys they were always bragging about how they just "blew each other away" with their own musicianship. Low standards, maybe. ;)

As far as Spirit, I think their worst records were better than Led Zeppelin's best. Which proves nothing, of course, other than we have very different tastes. Oh, well. As long as we can agree Ricky Martin is Satan, all is cool. :D

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Mark
As far as Spirit, I think their worst records were better than Led Zeppelin's best.
I missed the original reference, but right on Mark, Spirit was a heck of a good band. Saw them many times back in the days.

[Kullervo]

Originally posted by Mark
Howlin' Wolf was one of the true greats.Yes. His influence is every damn place. That godlike voice. Everybody should run right out and buy the Best Of CD.

Now!

Don't get that London sessions thing with those white english boys. There's some worthwhile stuff, but I think it's unworthy on the whole.

Smokestack Lightning.... owwwwooooo.

[Mark]

Originally posted by varwoche

I missed the original reference, but right on Mark, Spirit was a heck of a good band. Saw them many times back in the days.

...and how about the Spirit off-shoot, Jo Jo Gunne! There was a rockin' band!

[Mark]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Yes. His influence is every damn place. That godlike voice. Everybody should run right out and buy the Best Of CD.

Now!

Don't get that London sessions thing with those white english boys. There's some worthwhile stuff, but I think it's unworthy on the whole.

Smokestack Lightning.... owwwwooooo.

Or, as Sonny Boy Williamson once said, "Those English boys all want to play the blues so bad. And that's just what they do."

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Smokestack Lightning.... owwwwooooo.
Gives me the chills just to read it.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by varwoche

Let's not get too euphoric over inventing rock music. Not when during the same period there were Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, and Monk, seriously f***ing deep stuff, like a 9 course meal compared to a ding dong. <off soapbox>

We are talking about pop music here - must that gets played on the radio. You may have contempt for it, but it is the music most people listen to. Some of our palates are not sophisticated enough to appreciate the arcane fare you refer to.

[crimresearch]

I'll reprise what I said before...criticism is valid up to a point, but saying that rock heavyweights are overrated because they didn't play bebop seems to miss the point.

Stick each person in their respective boxes and let the sniping commence.

Paul

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by volant
Most overrated:
The Beatles

There, I said it, now kill me.

The hit squad is on its way...

[Mark]

Originally posted by DrChinese


The hit squad is on its way...

I agree. So did George Harrision. Much of what they "innovated" was really done by others first. I think what really set them apart was George Martin.

Not to say they weren't talented...they obviously were very talented. But were they better than everyone else? No not in my opinion.

[princhester]

The most overated rock/pop legends were [insert successful band that is not to my taste and pretend this is some sort of objective judgment here].

[varwoche]

Originally posted by princhester
The most overated rock/pop legends were [insert successful band that is not to my taste and pretend this is some sort of objective judgment here]. Astute!

[Ove]

BOWIE - BOWIE - BOWIE :p

[waitew]

Originally posted by Mark


I agree. So did George Harrision. Much of what they "innovated" was really done by others first. I think what really set them apart was George Martin.

Not to say they weren't talented...they obviously were very talented. But were they better than everyone else? No not in my opinion.


Hey,Mark,Germany is a good place for you.Just stay out of So.CAlIF...I'm in Elsinore of late & I'd hate to think you're around here!!Glad you're gone!

[Mark]

Originally posted by waitew



Hey,Mark,Germany is a good place for you.Just stay out of So.CAlIF...I'm in Elsinore of late & I'd hate to think you're around here!!Glad you're gone!

Huh?

[chapka]

Add my vote for the Doors.

And I for one don't think Bowie is overrated. If nothing else, he deserves props for Ziggy Stardust, which is a great album. And his recent work (especially Heathen) is still fresh and IMHO very good. I think that deserves some respect. How many pop artists have had good albums come out more than 30 years apart?

[frisian]

Hmmm, well my favorite band of all time is The Doors. That said, I find them to be overrated not by the general listening audience/populace, but rather by their rabid fans.

I suppose I am not clear though on the original posters intent. Overrated in what respect? Technique wise?

Yes, The Doors can be over dramatic, or what a friend of mine called pseudo-deep. I still think their first 2 albums are brilliant. Maybe they missed the mark with what they intended to present theatrically through the medium of music, but I think their "vision" and intent was more creative than most. It was escapist debauchery with stolen concepts from Huxley, Dylan Thomas, and Nietzsche. An attempt anyway at Philosophy/poetry mixed with rock music. Are there better lyricists out there, more clever ones...certainly. There sound is unique, who sounds like The Doors?

[frisian]

Oops, that was my quasi-defense of The Doors.

Hmmm, most overrated.

Nirvana - they played like crap, but they did make things exciting

Clapton - Just not sure what he added after Bell Bottom Blues, and his work in Cream are still my favorite.

Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine/Audioslave - Check out the guitar solo on track 2 on the Audioslave disc, what the hell is that? It's like a guitar track is missing.

Tom Petty

Kiss - please :rolleyes:

Oh one of my all time underrated guitarists is Slash from yes...Guns and Roses.

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Mark


I mean, what do I know? I like Tom Waits' voice!

I think I love you, Mark. Anyone who likes Tom Waits has got my attention...

But as to overrated singing stars (back on topic!)

--I'd say just about any pop diva in the last thirty years--Brittney, Cher, Mariah, Madonna et. al. Can I get a resounding Bleh! from the audience?

** I firmly acknowledge the fact I have no taste in music. I love David Bowie's early stuff--haven't bought anything of his from 1990-on. I love Mark Knopfler. I worship at the altar of Tom Waits. The Grateful Dead played better country music than most so-called country music stars. David Grisman is the man. Woody Allen isn't even half bad on the clarinet...

People who hate 80s rock don't remember the sublime joy of dancing to "Everybody Wang Chung Tonight" and "Dance Hall Days" at their eighth-grade graduations...:D

[Mark]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson


I think I love you, Mark. Anyone who likes Tom Waits has got my attention...

But as to overrated singing stars (back on topic!)

I worship at the altar of Tom Waits. The Grateful Dead played better country music than most so-called country music stars. David Grisman is the man. Woody Allen isn't even half bad on the clarinet...

People who hate 80s rock don't remember the sublime joy of dancing to "Everybody Wang Chung Tonight" and "Dance Hall Days" at their eighth-grade graduations...:D

I think it's mutual...anyone who even knows who David Grisman is! Shady Grove with David and Jerry Garcia is one of my all time favorite "traditional" records. Btw, If you like Mark Knopfler and Tom Waits, have you ever listened to Richard Thompson? Amazing stuff, just amazing.