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View Full Version : Flipping the payroll and capital gains tax rates


Chucky
10th December 2010, 06:24 PM
A Suggestion:

What would happen if we essentially flipped the current rates of payroll tax with capitols gains taxes? Adjusting them, more or less, so that longer term capital gains taxes go up to the 25 to 28% range payroll taxes and payroll taxes down to 15% to 10% range. The purpose is to give the average American an additional 15% or so in their paycheck.

We haven’t had a payroll holiday in about 30 years. Perhaps it’s time to focus our greatest effort on getting more money in the hands of most of the populous. An economy falters when great amounts of money don’t flow adequately through the bloodstream. Tax cuts help, but not as effective in the end as having customers who can still afford to buy a little more out of pocket. Without sufficient consumer demand, there is no profit. In part provide a way for all consumers to pay more for a more modular, durable standard rather than only the cheap and disposable. How about some Mil-spec household goods baby? :) When was the last time you saw that segment of the market?

As for capital gains, there could be numerous ways of balancing short term investments against long term investments in this situation. At a higher rate perhaps some of the differences will dissolve. My understanding is that the purpose of capital gains taxes is to ultimately to encourage long term investing. The short term rates would continue to be even be higher (or within some balance struck between longer and shorter term rates). Perhaps, for a year or so, might it make sense to have a break on short term rates so that capital that needs to change hands can before higher rates go into effect. I don’t know. But in any case, putting the longer term rates higher than they are now, by about 10%, is more likely then to make people hold on to their investments.

Now all this would certainly mean a difference in how business is done in that segment of the market. Long term stodgy holdings were the rule when we grew to the world’s premier and first modern super power in the 50’s and 60’s. If so, it can’t be all that bad of a strategy. At worst, the gains you make come slower. Adequate, but boring. Yet look at the mess we’ve been in with first the tech stock crash at the beginning of the decade and then the housing bubble / financial industry catastrophe, now just past its third anniversary when 95% of Americans, and most of the top 2% as well, couldn’t keep pace with the gigantic expansion of the last decade. It’s more difficult to plan now, period. And there will still be ever more options for investors in the future. But if 95% of us can afford more options than we can now, we have a some way to cope. And perhaps a slower pace of business results, as I guess it might, most of us may be able to make more stable long term investments.

I believe the consumer market will be kicked into full recovery in 5 years or less if the middle class tax stimulus that appears apparent this year through the tax cuts can be turned into comparable wages over the next 4 after that. And by pushing up the capital gains tax to where we are seeing more revenue out of it, particularly in the stock market which gets a lot of the low capitol gains benefit. We would put the stock market to work more for everyone in this country, not only its investors, by getting more revenue of it and other such holdings to keep the government providing an expanding investment environment and to also use it to begin paying down the deficit.

marting
11th December 2010, 12:36 AM
I also don't see why capital gain taxes and dividends should be lower than regular earned income taxes but with a caveat. People make, or should make, investments with a view to the longer term. Those are also the types of investments that most help the economy. The one caveat is inflation. The investment basis should be adjusted for inflation and capital gains should be taxed on gain that exceeds the inflation adjusted basis. Doing so would allow higher tax rates for capital gain income while still encouraging long term investment with it's benefits to the overall economy.

Elf Grinder 3000
12th December 2010, 04:06 PM
I also don't see why capital gain taxes and dividends should be lower than regular earned income taxes but with a caveat. People make, or should make, investments with a view to the longer term. Those are also the types of investments that most help the economy. The one caveat is inflation. The investment basis should be adjusted for inflation and capital gains should be taxed on gain that exceeds the inflation adjusted basis. Doing so would allow higher tax rates for capital gain income while still encouraging long term investment with it's benefits to the overall economy.

Dividends should be taxed at a lower rate, because they are earnings that were already taxed at the corporate rate of about 35%.

So taxing dividends does nothing but discourage payments to shareholders.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/03/102203.asp

I guess it depends on what tax bracket you are in. SS is 7%, but about 50% pay no federal income tax. So flipping it for those people will not really help much. Really the problem is the rich pay all the taxes especially federal.

blutoski
13th December 2010, 04:44 PM
Dividends should be taxed at a lower rate, because they are earnings that were already taxed at the corporate rate of about 35%.

So taxing dividends does nothing but discourage payments to shareholders.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/03/102203.asp

I think you're confusing dividend tax rates with capital gains tax rates.

Capital gains are obtained from selling an investment for more money than its purchase price. eg: real estate, shares.

The lower tax rate for capital gains is based entirely on the premise that investing contributes to the public weal and should be socially rewarded through tax incentives - in addition to rewarded only through the free market that produces the capital gains in the first place.

davefoc
15th December 2010, 11:42 PM
I think you're confusing dividend tax rates with capital gains tax rates.

Capital gains are obtained from selling an investment for more money than its purchase price. eg: real estate, shares.

The lower tax rate for capital gains is based entirely on the premise that investing contributes to the public weal and should be socially rewarded through tax incentives - in addition to rewarded only through the free market that produces the capital gains in the first place.

My guess is that lower tax rates for capital gains have little to do with what you put forth as the justification for them. Politicians are people and people like to give away other people's money and in the politicians case they not only get to satisfy that very basic human desire to give away what other people have doing it helps politicians get reelected. So they want to do as much of it as they can.

And so the capital gains tax rate is set so as to maximize government income. At first thought it might seem like all one needs to do to raise income from taxes is to raise tax rates. Alas it is not that simple. There is a tax income maximizing rate. Republican mythology is that that the current tax rates are always above the tax income maximizing rate and Democratic mythology is that the tax rates are always below the tax income maximizing rates (especially, of course, for taxes directed at rich people).

In fact, I suspect that the rates are pretty close to the income maximizing levels now and both Democrats and Republicans just lie about this to appeal to their different constituencies. The income from the capital gains tax is particularly affected by the rate. Raise it very much and people would rather hold on to stuff than sell it and pay the high taxes. Lower it very much and the government just gets less money because people wouldn't sell that much more stuff even with a much lower tax rate.

It has been a little disheartening for me over the last several years, but I have increasingly developed a very cynical view of what motivates our politicians. They want to get reelected and that is their primary motivator. Good governance is not something they aspire to, it is just one aspect of the complex set of drivers that motivates them to often take actions that they know are against the interests of the US.

lomiller
16th December 2010, 08:56 AM
If I sell investment A and reinvest into B there should be no capital gains involved. If I sell investment A and use the money as income it should be taxed at the same rate as income tax.
Dividends should be taxed at a lower rate, because they are earnings that were already taxed at the corporate rate of about 35%.

Corporations benefit from services provided by government and should be taxed accordingly. This is a cost of doing business not a pre-payment on shareholder taxes. That said, corporations/business should not be taxed out of proportion to the cost of providing the services they benefit from.

Dorian Gray
16th December 2010, 04:14 PM
Put simply, if this flipping actually happened, the consumers would be using their extra money to pay the taxes for the corporations, in the form of across the board price increases wherever possible.