New VAWT

[likelystory]

Because you don't know the theories by which the concepts you're dealing with can be measured and manipulated.

True, but only after one has gained a deep understanding of the theory behind the invention. Otherwise it's just random tinkering.

Random Tinkering ain't so bad. I self learned how to catch certain fish in an area that the locals didn't know of because ''I remember old timers on TV'' saying how to scour the surroundings for fresh bait.

I used old infant knowledge to create mature knowledge.

[Dinwar]

I used old infant knowledge to create mature knowledge. Random tinkering can get you to a certain point. That point is, however, increadibly limited, and certainly nowhere near where you can get with a deep understanding of the theories behind the thing you're tinkering with. Tinkering can get you a fish for dinner, but without a basic understanding of the issues involved tinkering will not cook your dinner.

I'm sorry, but do you think all those engineers and scientists and such simply wasted their time learning fluid dynamics, civil engineering, thermodynamics, how to read their instruments, and all that? Because that's what you're saying. You're saying "They're too stupid to realize all you need to do is look at the things to see how to improve them." Scientists have been wrong before, but (and this is an important part, but don't feel too bad--most people miss it) the overwhelming majority of those errors are detected and fixed by other scientists, and all of them are detected and fixed by people who understand the concepts involved. People who don't take the time to understand the concepts never make significant contributions. And you have bragged about not understanding the concepts involved.

[likelystory]

Random tinkering can get you to a certain point. That point is, however, increadibly limited, and certainly nowhere near where you can get with a deep understanding of the theories behind the thing you're tinkering with. Tinkering can get you a fish for dinner, but without a basic understanding of the issues involved tinkering will not cook your dinner.

I'm sorry, but do you think all those engineers and scientists and such simply wasted their time learning fluid dynamics, civil engineering, thermodynamics, how to read their instruments, and all that? Because that's what you're saying. You're saying "They're too stupid to realize all you need to do is look at the things to see how to improve them." Scientists have been wrong before, but (and this is an important part, but don't feel too bad--most people miss it) the overwhelming majority of those errors are detected and fixed by other scientists, and all of them are detected and fixed by people who understand the concepts involved. People who don't take the time to understand the concepts never make significant contributions. And you have bragged about not understanding the concepts involved.



You seem to have missed the first thing about knowledge, is to observe,and then build from there.

I disagree with alot of scientific self applied credibility,but I don't mock their scrutiny.

[Dinwar]

You seem to have missed the first thing about knowledge, is to observe,and then build from there.Nope. The one that missed this is you. See, "observe" generally means more than "eyeball"--it means you have to actually measure something.

[likelystory]

Nope. The one that missed this is you. See, "observe" generally means more than "eyeball"--it means you have to actually measure something.

What is your meaning of measurement? I currently have 19 magnets 6mm thick by 50 mm wide by 25.4 mm height ,and an assortee of 20 strong other ring magnets, and ''4'' ring magnets. And sheet magnets.

I measure by tinkering with certain items,and I notice stuff.... um sometimes :)

[Dinwar]

What is your meaning of measurement? Something you can put numbers to would be a great place to start. For example, you could tell us the amount of energy in the wind, and the amount of energy extracted by a standard wind turbine. Not "they don't get much"--actual numbers.

[likelystory]

Something you can put numbers to would be a great place to start. For example, you could tell us the amount of energy in the wind, and the amount of energy extracted by a standard wind turbine. Not "they don't get much"--actual numbers.

Then you tell me the energy in the wind at eighty meters. Only because you are at liberty to tell me how much I don't know.

[excaza]

Why don't you tell us? You're claiming current technologies are working at fractions of a percent of what they could. This implies that you know the maximum energy.

Or you're just blowing smoke.

I know which I'm leaning towards.

[rwguinn]

Then you tell me the energy in the wind at eighty meters. Only because you are at liberty to tell me how much I don't know.
There are libraries full of answers to both of the above statements.
From your posts, we could answer what you do know.
On the head of a standard straight pin.
In 4-point type.

[Dinwar]

Only because you are at liberty to tell me how much I don't know. I'm only going off of what you're telling us. If you know more, please present it--for example, you could tell us how your motor works, something we've been waiting for for over a dozen pages of text now. Partially I'm trying to get you angry enough to actually present DATA, because obviously asking politely doesn't work.

[likelystory]

I will attempt to build a working new VAWT God Willing. I say God Willing because it's my belief.

[TheRedWorm]

God ain't going to build it for you. You're going to have to build it yourself; but I'm guessing that you have no such intention, and this is just another example of successful troll being successful.

[TjW]

It's okay. likelystory's new VAWT will be quickly superceded, anyway.
Because no matter what sort of VAWT he comes up with, I'll take one and mount a HAWT (or maybe two or three) on each of his vertical blades, but at a larger diameter, so the HAWTs have more wind than any of the VAWT blades.
No matter how fast his VAWT spins, the HAWTs will be going even faster, because being further out, they have to travel a longer distance around the circle in the time of one rotation. So they'll always have more wind and be able to generate more power.

So I'll see your revolutionary VAWT and raise you a super-duper revolutionary hybrid HAWT-VAWT.

[Dinwar]

Can't we attach spinning blades to the outer edges of your HAWT blades, so that the air as they spin makes THEM spin? ;)

[jsfisher]

You're going to need some mighty power magnets, then.

[rwguinn]

It's okay. likelystory's new VAWT will be quickly superceded, anyway.
Because no matter what sort of VAWT he comes up with, I'll take one and mount a HAWT (or maybe two or three) on each of his vertical blades, but at a larger diameter, so the HAWTs have more wind than any of the VAWT blades.
No matter how fast his VAWT spins, the HAWTs will be going even faster, because being further out, they have to travel a longer distance around the circle in the time of one rotation. So they'll always have more wind and be able to generate more power.

So I'll see your revolutionary VAWT and raise you a super-duper revolutionary hybrid HAWT-VAWT.
Which will be even more efficient, because by eyeball you can tell that the power output is 6.022E+23 times greater than the best HAWT available today...

[TjW]

Can't we attach spinning blades to the outer edges of your HAWT blades, so that the air as they spin makes THEM spin? ;)

That's a really good idea! We'll be rich!

[excaza]

And science weeps silently in the corner.

[AdMan]

And science weeps silently in the corner.


It never had a chance in this thread.

[dafydd]

Yet I have calculated the lacking. Your learning is what? Up to date.

I am not a classroom genius, yet how does that inhibit my observations?

Inventions aren't taught,they are improved.

How did Edison ''improve'' the phonograph?

[ben m]

Yet I have calculated the lacking.

I am not a classroom genius, yet how does that inhibit my observations?


The fact that you've misinterpreted your observations, and translating them into the idea that your machine produces more power than the wind actually carries, suggests that you're lacking something. Classroom learning is certainly one thing that could have stopped you from making this mistake. Non-classroom learning might have done the trick too.

Go ahead and build your prototype, likelystory. You will find that it produces less power than the Betz limit. For rotors that sweep out area S (m^2), in a wind of velocity v and air density rho, you will extract less power than the wind actually carries by:

P_wind = 1/2 rho S v^3.

and furthermore you will extract less than 16/27ths of P_wind. Fancier generators/gearboxes can get you closer to this limit, they cannot get you above it.

Your rotor will tell you, expensively, what classroom learning could have told you cheaply.

Given that you don't want to talk details, please allow me to suggest that you go away until you've built your prototype and have the following experimental data:


Swept area of rotor
Wind speed during test
Mechanical power output at this wind speed (torque x rotation speed measured at the hub)
Electrical power output at this windspeed (RMS volts x amps across/through a resistive load)


Put up or shut up.

[likelystory]

It's okay. likelystory's new VAWT will be quickly superceded, anyway.
Because no matter what sort of VAWT he comes up with, I'll take one and mount a HAWT (or maybe two or three) on each of his vertical blades, but at a larger diameter, so the HAWTs have more wind than any of the VAWT blades.
No matter how fast his VAWT spins, the HAWTs will be going even faster, because being further out, they have to travel a longer distance around the circle in the time of one rotation. So they'll always have more wind and be able to generate more power.

So I'll see your revolutionary VAWT and raise you a super-duper revolutionary hybrid HAWT-VAWT.

Can you make one now?

[ynot]

Can you make one now?
Can you make your one now?

[likelystory]

Can you make your one now?

TjW reckons he can. TjW has other VAWT's he could practice his Hybrid HAWT. He doesn't require mine when it's ready :)

[Dinwar]

likelystory, you don't get to mock people for not having a design ready, or even ask them to build it as proof of concept, when you've refused, for thirteen pages, to do the same.

[excaza]

Unsurprisingly, we can add sarcasm to the list of things you don't understand.

[AdMan]

TjW reckons he can. TjW has other VAWT's he could practice his Hybrid HAWT. He doesn't require mine when it's ready :)


likelystory, if you really don't get it when people are making fun of you, then I think elementary school is in order.

If you do get it, your trolling behavior is getting boring. You need to come up with something better to keep us entertained. :)

[likelystory]

likelystory, you don't get to mock people for not having a design ready, or even ask them to build it as proof of concept, when you've refused, for thirteen pages, to do the same.

I do have a couple of designs. So why are you asking me for secrets. Read the OP if you like.

[Dinwar]

I have never asked you for secrets. I have asked you for technical specifications, the kind that are necessary to get something patented. What you gave us aren't designs, they're cartoon sketches of vague concepts mixed with absurd misunderstandings of how physics works.

[Craig4]

Or you could build the damn thing and tell us all about your results.

[TjW]

TjW reckons he can. TjW has other VAWT's he could practice his Hybrid HAWT. He doesn't require mine when it's ready :)

No. It won't work with existing VAWTs, because they're law-abiding. I need one of your free-turbine-on-the-wind VAWTs that don't have to follow silly rules like only extracting as much kinetic energy as is possible. I believe in you now. Only five more items to tick off, and the red Queen will let me have breakfast.

[likelystory]

No. It won't work with existing VAWTs, because they're law-abiding. I need one of your free-turbine-on-the-wind VAWTs that don't have to follow silly rules like only extracting as much kinetic energy as is possible. I believe in you now. Only five more items to tick off, and the red Queen will let me have breakfast.

My new VAWT is not magic,it's old knowledge grouped together to form a new style of machine. It's a basic machine that will produce large amounts of energy due to it's configuration.

It all depends on how the peices are put together,there's ''nothing'' special about my wind machine. I think most people are looking for high tech to produce large amounts of electricty when in fact it's the fundamentals that are sufficient.

Think of the Steam Engine, cos that's about as technical as my new VAWT can be compared to.........

[Dinwar]

It all depends on how the peices are put together,there's ''nothing'' special about my wind machine. I think most people are looking for high tech to produce large amounts of electricty when in fact it's the fundamentals that are sufficient.
No, we're looking for some indication ot technical proficiency on your part. We have found none thus far. You have been unable or unwilling to either construct the machine or provide a basic description of it, and your assessment is based on eyeballing existing structures (you can't even calculate how much energy is extracted by current technology). This isn't about high-tech or low-tech, it's about you backing up your claims.

My new VAWT is not magic,it's old knowledge grouped together to form a new style of machine. It's a basic machine that will produce large amounts of energy due to it's configuration.
None of this is data, it's all evaluation. Are you unwilling or incappable of providing data?

[ben m]

It's a basic machine that will produce large amounts of energy due to it's configuration.

Is the power produced larger, or smaller, than 0.59 * 1/2 rho A v^3?

Modern HAWTs produce ~ 0.45 * 1/2 rho A v^3.
If you produce more than 0.59 * 1/2 rho A v^3 you violate the laws of fluid dynamics.
If you produce more than 1.0 * 1/2 rho A v^3 you violate the laws of physics.

[excaza]

How on earth are HAWT's complicated? It's a rotor turning a shaft. It's no more or less complicated than a VAWT...

[ReverendClog]

Having read this wonderful piece of performance art that Likelystory has produced, I think he must be describing a VAWT which is composed of separate, vertically stacked, individually turning sections rotating about the perpendicular axis, each housing a turbine, and somehow exponentially combining the separate power outputs.
Is that it ?.

[ben m]

Having read this wonderful piece of performance art that Likelystory has produced, I think he must be describing a VAWT which is composed of separate, vertically stacked, individually turning sections rotating about the perpendicular axis, each housing a turbine, and somehow exponentially combining the separate power outputs.
Is that it ?.

I think that he's picturing a 3-D space frame in which every vertical strut is a VAWT axis. Since he doesn't think that the turbines affect one another, he imagines them stacked 20 deep and "reusing" the same wind 20 times as it blows through. Plus there's a magic motor, which is another factor of infinity, and also a pony.

[ReverendClog]

I can't wait to see which particular tantrum gets him banned, when he eventually goes postal amid the wreckage of his nonsensical theories. I imagine it will echo the fall of Sauron from LOTR,

'If it is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.'.

Apologies to Tolkien.
Of course the above quote could describe his present state.

[TjW]

I think that he's picturing a 3-D space frame in which every vertical strut is a VAWT axis. Since he doesn't think that the turbines affect one another, he imagines them stacked 20 deep and "reusing" the same wind 20 times as it blows through. Plus there's a magic motor, which is another factor of infinity, and also a pony.

I see you're an optimist: "With all this manure, there must be a pony around here somewhere!"

[RussDill]

PONIES! Yay! I lurve ponies!

[nathan]

Think of the Steam Engine, cos that's about as technical as my new VAWT can be compared to.........

There's a reason Steam Engines are not in regular use any more.

[likelystory]

There's a reason Steam Engines are not in regular use any more.

Tell me why this technology become dormant?

[nathan]

Tell me why this technology become dormant?

good try at distraction!

How's your build coming along?

[Crossbow]

My new VAWT is not magic,it's old knowledge grouped together to form a new style of machine. It's a basic machine that will produce large amounts of energy due to it's configuration.

It all depends on how the peices are put together,there's ''nothing'' special about my wind machine. I think most people are looking for high tech to produce large amounts of electricty when in fact it's the fundamentals that are sufficient.

Think of the Steam Engine, cos that's about as technical as my new VAWT can be compared to.........

Well, if your new wind machine is based on existing technology, then it should be a simple matter for you to build one, proove your concept, then soon become richer than Bill Gates.

So what is stopping you from proceeding?

[excaza]

Reality.

[likelystory]

good try at distraction!

How's your build coming along?

I have a potential investor at a payback of ten fold outlay.......

[TheRedWorm]

That's Great! Now, come back when you've finished! Or not! You'll be famous, after all!

[Dinwar]

All of that translates, in construction terms, as "I ain't started yet."

No good investor will be stupid enough to invest in a technology like this before the scale model is finished and you have at least proof of concept.

[excaza]

unless it's a family member

edit: oops, you said good investor

[TjW]

All of that translates, in construction terms, as "I ain't started yet."

No good investor will be stupid enough to invest in a technology like this before the scale model is finished and you have at least proof of concept.

Well, no prudent investor. For some people a good investor is anyone who promises them money. There are a number of "we'll supply energy for the new millennium" scams around. Not all of them are overunity based. At least one is based on... VAWTs. The idea is that roughly a meter squared of swept area on your roof will provide your energy needs.

I suppose that, like the lottery, it could be considered a sort of tax on innumeracy.

ETA: It might be good to add that there are also a number of scams based on bilking money from people who think they have a wonderful idea and need help to patent it.

[Dikken]

Just to impart a little sanity in this thread, here are some of the most beatiful VAWTs I have ever seen:

http://www.windside.com/design.html

[Crossbow]

I have a potential investor at a payback of ten fold outlay.......

Well, as a famous man once said:

There is a sucker born every minute!

Or to quote an old parable:

A fool and his money are soon parted.

And judging by the volumes of nonsense that you have been posting here, then I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is at least one very silly person here on planet Earth who will actually invest in your VAWT.

[likelystory]

Well, as a famous man once said:



Or to quote an old parable:



And judging by the volumes of nonsense that you have been posting here, then I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is at least one very silly person here on planet Earth who will actually invest in your VAWT.


Would you like to buy one of my new VAWT's when they're ready?.

The person who offered me some finacial help seen my ''spinner'' I made yesterday minus the all new VAWT motor and he wanted one. That's why he wants to invest.He's not hooked up to the grid ATM, he s been off it for 15 years.

I told him my ideas about mega watts and terawatts of my new VAWT without telling him the secret of the motor, AND he did not laugh at me. Years ago he helped to builld TWO COAL FIRE POWER STATIONS, so he's not stupid. He wants to become self sufficent, with aqua culture included.

[Crossbow]

Would you like to buy one of my new VAWT's when they're ready?.

The person who offered me some finacial help seen my ''spinner'' I made yesterday minus the all new VAWT motor and he wanted one. That's why he wants to invest.He's not hooked up to the grid ATM, he s been off it for 15 years.

I told him my ideas about mega watts and terawatts of my new VAWT without telling him the secret of the motor, AND he did not laugh at me. Years ago he helped to builld TWO COAL FIRE POWER STATIONS, so he's not stupid. He wants to become self sufficent, with aqua culture included.

Sure, I will buy one of your VAWT units when they are finished and when they work as well as you claim. In fact, I expect that a great many people would want them.

So, getting back to my question, just build them and you will become richer than Bill Gates. Therefore, what is stopping you?

[dafydd]

. Years ago he helped to builld TWO COAL FIRE POWER STATIONS, so he's not stupid. He wants to become self sufficent, with aqua culture included.

He was a bricklayer?

[dafydd]

Sure, I will buy one of your VAWT units when they are finished and when they work as well as you claim. In fact, I expect that a great many people would want them.

So, getting back to my question, just build them and you will become richer than Bill Gates. Therefore, what is stopping you?

Reality again.

[EHocking]

Just to impart a little sanity in this thread, here are some of the most beatiful VAWTs I have ever seen:

http://www.windside.com/design.htmlAnd on their Product Testing pages, they have actual output measurements and efficiencies.

How do they compare to Likelystory's "measurements"?
Well, they exist for a start, so already 100% better.

[Hellbound]

Would you like to buy one of my new VAWT's when they're ready?.

The person who offered me some finacial help seen my ''spinner'' I made yesterday minus the all new VAWT motor and he wanted one. That's why he wants to invest.He's not hooked up to the grid ATM, he s been off it for 15 years.

I told him my ideas about mega watts and terawatts of my new VAWT without telling him the secret of the motor, AND he did not laugh at me. Years ago he helped to builld TWO COAL FIRE POWER STATIONS, so he's not stupid. He wants to become self sufficent, with aqua culture included.

I'll buy one.

Provided you're willing to sign a contract that states that it will be ready by a specific time, and should the device not work as claimed here (as determiend by a qualified, disinterested third party such as an engineer or physicist, who will measure the devices inputs and outputs), you will refund double the cost to me. I'm sure we have some lawyers here who would be willing to make sure the contract was legally sound and had the correct terminology.

[jsfisher]

And on their Product Testing pages, they have actual output measurements and efficiencies.

How do they compare to Likelystory's "measurements"?
Well, they exist for a start, so already 100% better.


I took a stab at the WS-4 model. At 10 m/s wind speed, it can deliver 400 watts of power. If I did the calculation correctly, the Betz limit is over 1,500 watts, so the efficiency of this VAWT isn't so good*. (Well, it may be fine for typical VAWT designs, but not so fine compared to high-efficiency HAWT models.)

However, from 400 to 1,500 watts, there is not room for likelystory's alleged factor of ten improvement, no matter how good his magnets are.




*I considered saying "the VAWT efficency wasn't so hawt", but I resisted the temptation. :D

[Dinwar]

Years ago he helped to builld TWO COAL FIRE POWER STATIONS, so he's not stupid. The same claim can be made by any day laborer on the project. Or by any backhoe driver. Not to insult backhoe drivers--it's a very practical skill--but knowledge of how to drive a backhoe does not impart on one the ability to evaluate such claims.

But this should make things even easier for you. Tell us the technical specifications you told him concerning the VAWT. That would most likely satisfy my (repeated and ignored, for 13 pages) request for data on the topic.

[EHocking]

*I considered saying "the VAWT efficency wasn't so hawt", but I resisted the temptation. :DOh No You Didn't! [/panto]:D

[Craig4]

Likely Story. Let me tell you what I (a consumer) want. I was in the Masai Mara National Park in Kenya camping last year. I brought two battery packs for my video camera both of which ran out. When I got back to our tent compound we didn't have electricity so I couldn't charge them (which is cool since you haven't been to Africa until you've had a warm Tusker or St George's Beer under the stars). Anyway, what I want is a collapsable wind turbine that would fit into my daypack (about .6 meters tall) that I could set up and charge my cameras with. It needs to have a cage on it because it's not safe having the blades spinning in the dark and I don't want to turn any bats or birds into hamburger. People will buy that product.

You aren't going to change the world's relationship with energy. That's going to happen at some point but it won't be you doing it. It's probably hard to hear that but that's the way it is. Your work is simply not good enough for that. It might be good enough for some smaller applications in niche markets. Focus on that.

[Little 10 Toes]

Already saw a commercial for a backpack that had solar panels. Go for the existing product and ignore the one that hasn't been built yet.

[likelystory]

Likely Story. Let me tell you what I (a consumer) want. I was in the Masai Mara National Park in Kenya camping last year. I brought two battery packs for my video camera both of which ran out. When I got back to our tent compound we didn't have electricity so I couldn't charge them (which is cool since you haven't been to Africa until you've had a warm Tusker or St George's Beer under the stars). Anyway, what I want is a collapsable wind turbine that would fit into my daypack (about .6 meters tall) that I could set up and charge my cameras with. It needs to have a cage on it because it's not safe having the blades spinning in the dark and I don't want to turn any bats or birds into hamburger. People will buy that product.

You aren't going to change the world's relationship with energy. That's going to happen at some point but it won't be you doing it. It's probably hard to hear that but that's the way it is. Your work is simply not good enough for that. It might be good enough for some smaller applications in niche markets. Focus on that.

Yes a telescopic put together KIT VAWT for backpacking,I was thinking about a safe wind machine for that a couple of years back.Detatchable wings and light weight bearings.

Your the second man who has mentioned Bats to me within two days,the other man was the probable investor.

[TjW]

Yes a telescopic put together KIT VAWT for backpacking,I was thinking about a safe wind machine for that a couple of years back.Detatchable wings and light weight bearings.

Your the second man who has mentioned Bats to me within two days,the other man was the probable investor.

As in: "If I don't make my money back, Vinnie and Guido will be visiting you with bats."

[Craig4]

Yes a telescopic put together KIT VAWT for backpacking,I was thinking about a safe wind machine for that a couple of years back.Detatchable wings and light weight bearings.

Your the second man who has mentioned Bats to me within two days,the other man was the probable investor.

Try focusing on limited, achievable goals for now.

[likelystory]

Likely Story. Let me tell you what I (a consumer) want. I was in the Masai Mara National Park in Kenya camping last year. I brought two battery packs for my video camera both of which ran out. When I got back to our tent compound we didn't have electricity so I couldn't charge them (which is cool since you haven't been to Africa until you've had a warm Tusker or St George's Beer under the stars). Anyway, what I want is a collapsable wind turbine that would fit into my daypack (about .6 meters tall) that I could set up and charge my cameras with. It needs to have a cage on it because it's not safe having the blades spinning in the dark and I don't want to turn any bats or birds into hamburger. People will buy that product.

You aren't going to change the world's relationship with energy. That's going to happen at some point but it won't be you doing it. It's probably hard to hear that but that's the way it is. Your work is simply not good enough for that. It might be good enough for some smaller applications in niche markets. Focus on that.

So you are a consumer wanting electricity for your video camera when braving the outdoors. This should fit in your backpack quite easily ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ0v-CK63-4&feature=related

[likelystory]

Secret things highflyertoo he may perpetuate another glorious wind-up to nothing?

Come on there's nothing glorious about me and ain't that the truth ;)

[Cuddles]

Likely Story. Let me tell you what I (a consumer) want. I was in the Masai Mara National Park in Kenya camping last year. I brought two battery packs for my video camera both of which ran out. When I got back to our tent compound we didn't have electricity so I couldn't charge them (which is cool since you haven't been to Africa until you've had a warm Tusker or St George's Beer under the stars). Anyway, what I want is a collapsable wind turbine that would fit into my daypack (about .6 meters tall) that I could set up and charge my cameras with. It needs to have a cage on it because it's not safe having the blades spinning in the dark and I don't want to turn any bats or birds into hamburger. People will buy that product.

http://www.firebox.com/product/2111/HY-Mini-Wind-Turbine?via=cat
I'm not aware of any portable turbines much bigger than that but that should be good enough for a camera, especially if you just attach it to your rucksack and leave it charging one battery while you're using the other one.

Thinking about it, a HAWT would almost certainly work better as a collapsible, portable device than a VAWT, since it should be relatively easy to just fold the blades down, or maybe just detach them. With a VAWT you have annoying spirals that would be much harder to compress down to a convenient size.

Alternatively:
http://www.firebox.com/product/1796/FreeLoader-Solar-Chargers?via=cat
Although I wouldn't actually recommend FreeLoader, there are other makes that are far more effective and reliable. That just happened to be the first link I found.

[likelystory]

http://www.firebox.com/product/2111/HY-Mini-Wind-Turbine?via=cat
I'm not aware of any portable turbines much bigger than that but that should be good enough for a camera, especially if you just attach it to your rucksack and leave it charging one battery while you're using the other one.

Thinking about it, a HAWT would almost certainly work better as a collapsible, portable device than a VAWT, since it should be relatively easy to just fold the blades down, or maybe just detach them. With a VAWT you have annoying spirals that would be much harder to compress down to a convenient size.

Alternatively:
http://www.firebox.com/product/1796/FreeLoader-Solar-Chargers?via=cat
Although I wouldn't actually recommend FreeLoader, there are other makes that are far more effective and reliable. That just happened to be the first link I found.

A VAWT is upright so how can it be awarked? I mean is the turbine going to be large or small?

I'm getting to dislike forums more and more.

[Dinwar]

People tend to dislike having their delusions demonstrated to be delusional.

If you don't like me calling them delusional, prove me wrong. Either provide technical information about your device, so that we can evaluate it, or build the thing and prove us wrong.

[Craig4]

A VAWT is upright so how can it be awarked? I mean is the turbine going to be large or small?

I'm getting to dislike forums more and more.

I think what you really dislike is facing reality. If you keep it in perspective coming to and understanding about that might be beneficial to you in the long run.

[Crossbow]

A VAWT is upright so how can it be awarked? I mean is the turbine going to be large or small?

I'm getting to dislike forums more and more.

Well, if you dislike forums so much, then just quit, build your VAWTs, and make so much money that you can buy all the forums and all the friends that you like.

By the way, I expect that if your VAWTs work out like you keep saying that they will, then you will make enough money so that you could go to the Moon yourself and determine that the Moon Landings were faked like you kept on saying in that other thread.

But of course, to make all those oodles of money will mean that mean that you will actually have to do something as opposed to just talking, talking, talking, and talking some more about doing something which is what you have been doing.

[likelystory]

People tend to dislike having their delusions demonstrated to be delusional.

If you don't like me calling them delusional, prove me wrong. Either provide technical information about your device, so that we can evaluate it, or build the thing and prove us wrong.

I think what you really dislike is facing reality. If you keep it in perspective coming to and understanding about that might be beneficial to you in the long run.

Well, if you dislike forums so much, then just quit, build your VAWTs, and make so much money that you can buy all the forums and all the friends that you like.

By the way, I expect that if your VAWTs work out like you keep saying that they will, then you will make enough money so that you could go to the Moon yourself and determine that the Moon Landings were faked like you kept on saying in that other thread.

But of course, to make all those oodles of money will mean that mean that you will actually have to do something as opposed to just talking, talking, talking, and talking some more about doing something which is what you have been doing.

Not one of you people bothered to give positive feedback about the link I posted about the Wind Belt which would be ideal for back packing. So here's another video of the inventor showing and explaining his device .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

[AdMan]

Not one of you people bothered to give positive feedback about the link I posted about the Wind Belt which would be ideal for back packing. So here's another video of the inventor showing and explaining his device .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU


Why would anyone bother to give any type of feedback on a Youtube video link that has not much to do with the topic of this thread or with any of the wild claims you have made here?

Quit trying to change the subject. Post some actual data that supports your claims, or just leave the forum. You've just posted inane noise so far.

[ben m]

Not one of you people bothered to give positive feedback about the link I posted about the Wind Belt which would be ideal for back packing. So here's another video of the inventor showing and explaining his device .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

Positive feedback to who? Shawn Frayne is not reading this thread AFAIK.

Let's point out the things Shawn has that you don't:

a) power calculations based on the actual, known laws of physics, not based on "estimation"
b) working prototypes
c) hands-on experience deploying low-tech machines in the developing world
d) working prototypes
e) a physics degree from MIT
f) working prototypes
g) an employee with an aerospace engineering degree from MIT
h) the accumulated knowledge of (to name a few) Lord Rayleigh, Isaac Newton, Daniel Bernoulli, Theodore von Karman, Osborne Reynolds, etc., which lets them avoid many of the mistakes of trial-and-error engineering.
i) A WORKING PROTOTYPE

[likelystory]

Likely Story. Let me tell you what I (a consumer) want. I was in the Masai Mara National Park in Kenya camping last year. I brought two battery packs for my video camera both of which ran out. When I got back to our tent compound we didn't have electricity so I couldn't charge them (which is cool since you haven't been to Africa until you've had a warm Tusker or St George's Beer under the stars). Anyway, what I want is a collapsable wind turbine that would fit into my daypack (about .6 meters tall) that I could set up and charge my cameras with. It needs to have a cage on it because it's not safe having the blades spinning in the dark and I don't want to turn any bats or birds into hamburger. People will buy that product.

You aren't going to change the world's relationship with energy. That's going to happen at some point but it won't be you doing it. It's probably hard to hear that but that's the way it is. Your work is simply not good enough for that. It might be good enough for some smaller applications in niche markets. Focus on that.

Is this the sort of thing to power your video camera when you are travelling in Kenya? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

Do you have something positive to say about this,Since you made it clear in your post what you the ''consumer'' were looking for? Or are you here to argue with out a cause like most of the other folks?

[AdMan]

Or are you here to argue with out a cause like most of the other folks?


You posted this in your original post:


My vast improvement of Wind Technology could meet the Earth's demand for power consumption,The Tech would be so useful to fuel Desalination Plants and purifying drinking water,for heating and cooking and cooling systems. (This seems to sit in my gut fairly well)



Either provide evidence that you have discovered this "vast improvement," which you have been unable to do in 15 pages, or admit that you can't and stop trying to evade the question. You are the one here arguing without a cause, or, in your case, without any proof to support your claims.

[excaza]

Is this the sort of thing to power your video camera when you are travelling in Kenya? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

Do you have something positive to say about this,Since you made it clear in your post what you the ''consumer'' were looking for? Or are you here to argue with out a cause like most of the other folks?

What does this have to do with your nonexistent wind technology that can supposedly power the entire planet?

[Craig4]

Is this the sort of thing to power your video camera when you are travelling in Kenya? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

Do you have something positive to say about this,Since you made it clear in your post what you the ''consumer'' were looking for? Or are you here to argue with out a cause like most of the other folks?

That might do the trick. Of course it has the advantage of actually existing. I'm suggesting this is the sort of thing you should consider since you won't be powering the entire planet with your VAWT.

[likelystory]

What does this have to do with your nonexistent wind technology that can supposedly power the entire planet?

What do you mean non existant? I have been building some of it.

[Crossbow]

Not one of you people bothered to give positive feedback about the link I posted about the Wind Belt which would be ideal for back packing. So here's another video of the inventor showing and explaining his device .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMojRXK14jU

That is because we are interested in your system and not what someone else is doing. After all, it was you who has been making all these grandiose statements about how great and wonderful your VAWT is and yet you have not shown anything substantive about them.

[Dinwar]

What do you mean non existant? I have been building some of it. That's not enough. Until you actually complete construction of a working scale model, the technology is nonexistent. Or you could provide us with enough technical data that we could make our own assessment of the device. You've failed to do so in over a dozen pages of text, however; I think we can assume at this point that you have none.

[ben m]

What do you mean non existant? I have been building some of it.

Do you intend to answer any questions about it?

[likelystory]

That's not enough. Until you actually complete construction of a working scale model, the technology is nonexistent. Or you could provide us with enough technical data that we could make our own assessment of the device. You've failed to do so in over a dozen pages of text, however; I think we can assume at this point that you have none.

I'll provide the data in a Patent. Sound FAIR?..... Thread Locked!

[AdMan]

I'll provide the data in a Patent. Sound FAIR?..... Thread Locked!


No, sorry. You can't lock the thread.

Why did you come to the forum and start this thread in the first place, if you never intended to provide any proof of your claims here?

Or is it that you can't provide any proof?

[Dinwar]

I'll provide the data in a Patent. Sound FAIR?Not really. This amounts to the following:

1) I have a really good idea!
2) it'll revolutionize everything!
3) I said it'll revolutionize everything!
4) You're mean. You don't listen.
5) Fine. I'll give someone else the data and make you look for it!

YOU came HERE and made a claim. And you've no flat-out refused to back it up here. This is rude. Asking for you to back up your claims? Not rude. Pointing out glaring flaws in your design? Again, not rude. This is what people in science experience constantly.

[TjW]

No, sorry. You can't lock the thread.

Why did you come to the forum and start this thread in the first place, if you never intended to provide any proof of your claims here?

Or is it that you can't provide any proof?

I think it's more along the lines of:
a. He doesn't understand what sort of evidence would be useful in deciding whether a particular turbine design would be an improvement over existing designs. Not even enough to successfully, or even plausibly, lie about it.
b. He doesn't care, because he's getting everything he wanted from this thread.

[Evilgiraffe]

He doesn't care, because he's getting everything he wanted from this thread.

Mockery?

[dafydd]

A VAWT is upright so how can it be awarked? I mean is the turbine going to be large or small?

I'm getting to dislike forums more and more.

Build it,make a fortune and prove us all wrong.

[Mikemcc]

From the guys who actually build these things


Despite their benefits in low-wind situations, VAWT turbines are not as efficient as their more common horizontal counterparts, a fact acknowledged by the engineers at Windworks Engineering. It admitted that while the efficiency of HAWTs in wind-tunnel testing may be as high as 45 per cent, a typical VAWT design may only achieve between 25-35 per cent efficiency.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/perth-hosts-7kw-vawt-prototype/312931.article

[jsfisher]

From the guys who actually build these things


Despite their benefits in low-wind situations, VAWT turbines are not as efficient as their more common horizontal counterparts, a fact acknowledged by the engineers at Windworks Engineering. It admitted that while the efficiency of HAWTs in wind-tunnel testing may be as high as 45 per cent, a typical VAWT design may only achieve between 25-35 per cent efficiency.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/perth-hosts-7kw-vawt-prototype/312931.article

I think you must have missed the part where likelystory promised he'd make his VAWT 10-times more efficient than conventional wind turbines. His will be 250-450% efficient. You'll see. (The secret? Magnets!)

;)

[BTMO]

Excuse me Sir,I am the exceptional nut. I have been building it and then I dismantled it and then sawed it up,yet I held on to some parts for future testing. I have the patent paperwork,it's a matter of me improving my drawing skills,then I can have the patent pending.


I built a new type of reactor. I blew it up.

Seemed a good idea at the time...

[TjW]

Excuse me Sir,I am the exceptional nut. I have been building it and then I dismantled it and then sawed it up,yet I held on to some parts for future testing. I have the patent paperwork,it's a matter of me improving my drawing skills,then I can have the patent pending.


I built a new type of reactor. I blew it up.

Seemed a good idea at the time...

Personally, I don't find him all that exceptional.

[BTMO]

Personally, I don't find him all that exceptional.

True enough.

Personally, I am hoping they'll turn the morality filter off for five minutes...

[excaza]

From the guys who actually build these things


http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/perth-hosts-7kw-vawt-prototype/312931.article

Which I already explained earlier :p

[likelystory]

I'll provide the data in a Patent. Sound FAIR?..... Thread Locked!

Thread Unlocked. I've had my Weeties :)

[RussDill]

I think you are a bit confused as to what "locked" means.

Anyway, if your are curious how actual work is done instead of people just running around and claiming their idea is better, take a look:

http://lablog.engin.umich.edu/2011/01/shark-inspires-artist-to-build-new.html

What? Actual math? Building and testing prototypes? Who would ever do that?

[Cuddles]

I think you are a bit confused as to what "locked" means.

Among other things.

[Dinwar]

Do you have any data to provide? Or are you going to merely continue speculating and telling us what we'll think about the product?

[Mashuna]

Do you have any data to provide? Or are you going to merely continue speculating and telling us what we'll think about the product?

Ooh, pick me! I know the answer to this one!

[Sean84]

Thread Unlocked. I've had my Weeties :)

Time to man up, John. Tell the nice people who've been trying to understand you that it's all a matter of magical dreams.

Or don't. Eat cereal. What do I care?

[likelystory]

Time to man up, John. Tell the nice people who've been trying to understand you that it's all a matter of magical dreams.

Or don't. Eat cereal. What do I care?

I put a crude proto type of VAWT without the motor onto the side of the chimney........ Spins quite fast..... People here have not seen anything like it.


Had a new design enter my head yesterday.....

Oh I happened to put two different spinning incomplete VAWT's on the same chimney,three feet apart....... the cluster theory is somehow working...... Who would have guessed. lol ;)

[Dinwar]

Two things:

1) Fast spinning doesn't equal power generation. You haven't generated any power, so you can't really call this a prototype.

2) No one ever said that turbines wouldn't work if clustered together. We said that they loose efficiency, because each turbine causes turbulance and takes energy from the air moving over them. Two turbines close to each other spinning doesn't disprove this.

[Little 10 Toes]

Pictures please.

[ben m]

I put a crude proto type of VAWT without the motor onto the side of the chimney........ Spins quite fast

Under what load? Spinning very fast with zero torque is easy. The hard part---the part that results in mechanical work---is when you spin fast despite the torque from (e.g.) the generator. Power = torque * angular velocity.


Oh I happened to put two different spinning incomplete VAWT's on the same chimney,three feet apart....... the cluster theory is somehow working...... Who would have guessed. lol ;)

I'm not surprised in the slightest. Again, if there is no load on the hub, there's no power being extracted from the wind; which means the wind does not slow down (much) when passing; which means you can stack them any way you want.

"three feet": yay! A dimension! I believe that's a first. What are the other dimensions of these rotors, likelystory?

[likelystory]

Two things:

1) Fast spinning doesn't equal power generation. You haven't generated any power, so you can't really call this a prototype.

2) No one ever said that turbines wouldn't work if clustered together. We said that they loose efficiency, because each turbine causes turbulance and takes energy from the air moving over them. Two turbines close to each other spinning doesn't disprove this.

So what. The clustered footprint will still produce more engery even with a 70% head to head , vawt to vawt balance.

I'm talking of a huge reduction of land use.

[Dinwar]

So what. The clustered footprint will still produce more engery even with a 70% head to head , vawt to vawt balance.
Do I STILL need to point out that you have NO calculations backing this? You eyeballed a HAWT and decided, based on nothing, that it's inefficient. Then you built to pinwheels, put them on your chimney, and said "Look! It works!" Once you put these things under load they won't spin nearly as fast. And once you build enough to generate an appreciable amount of power issues like turbulance and the fact that you can't break the Second Law of Thermodynamics will put a hard limit on what you can build. So far, you've done nothing to convince me I'm wrong.

[likelystory]

Do I STILL need to point out that you have NO calculations backing this? You eyeballed a HAWT and decided, based on nothing, that it's inefficient. Then you built to pinwheels, put them on your chimney, and said "Look! It works!" Once you put these things under load they won't spin nearly as fast. And once you build enough to generate an appreciable amount of power issues like turbulance and the fact that you can't break the Second Law of Thermodynamics will put a hard limit on what you can build. So far, you've done nothing to convince me I'm wrong.

Not to pinwheels..... Heavy duty bearings on axels.

[Dinwar]

How heavy-duty the pinwheels are doesn't really matter. Until you hook the motor up all you've done is demonstrate the principles of a pinwheel.

[ben m]

How heavy-duty the pinwheels are doesn't really matter. Until you hook the motor up all you've done is demonstrate the principles of a pinwheel.

And: Vertical-axis pinwheel, horizontal-axis pinwheel---they both generate mechanical power P = torque * angular velocity, and they both generate zero power at zero torque.

Good for you for building a spinning thing, likelystory. Your next steps should be: (a) figure out a way to apply a controlled torque, and (b) get actual measurements---numbers, preferably with error bars---on its rotation speed at different torques. There are various ways to do this; looking at it with your eyes and saying "one one thousand, two one thousand .... OK, I think it's going just as fast as before, maybe a skosh faster" is not one of them.

[RussDill]

Pictures please.

Yes, this thread would be 543% better with pictures!

[ApolloGnomon]

I put a crude proto type of VAWT without the motor onto the side of the chimney........ Spins quite fast..... People here have not seen anything like it.


No-load RPM is fine for testing no-load applications.

Had a new design enter my head yesterday.....Sounds painful. Perhaps you should be wearing a helmet when operating your pinwheel?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2RHaSrbHQFw/SdPInYHdZYI/AAAAAAAAAFg/V3D0K-arLgk/s320/buy-blue-propeller-hat.png

Oh I happened to put two different spinning incomplete VAWT's on the same chimney,three feet apart....... the cluster theory is somehow working...... Who would have guessed. lol ;)No load testing has tested for no load.

[likelystory]

No-load RPM is fine for testing no-load applications.

Sounds painful. Perhaps you should be wearing a helmet when operating your pinwheel?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2RHaSrbHQFw/SdPInYHdZYI/AAAAAAAAAFg/V3D0K-arLgk/s320/buy-blue-propeller-hat.png

No load testing has tested for no load.

Are you implying my prototypes have no torque?

Is it true what I heard the other day about Americans trying to scrap international patents?

The Saudi's won't like me if my new VAWT succeeds, cos then I maybe bring out my even better idea to run automobiles...

[ben m]

Are you implying my prototypes have no torque?

Sure sounds that way. How much torque did you apply, and how?

[likelystory]

Yes, this thread would be 543% better with pictures!

I agree

[Dinwar]

e you implying my prototypes have no torque?
Oh, no, I'm sure they have torque. You just haven't presented any evidence about how MUCH torque, or if it's actually useful. I mean, you haven't DONE anything with it yet. Or given us any data on it (well, not entirely true--you said you built 2, and put them 3 feet apart; no data on the devices themselves, though).

The Saudi's won't like me if my new VAWT succeeds, cos then I maybe bring out my even better idea to run automobiles... Yet another excuse for not doing it.... :rolleyes:

[likelystory]

Oh, no, I'm sure they have torque. You just haven't presented any evidence about how MUCH torque, or if it's actually useful. I mean, you haven't DONE anything with it yet. Or given us any data on it (well, not entirely true--you said you built 2, and put them 3 feet apart; no data on the devices themselves, though).

Yet another excuse for not doing it.... :rolleyes:

Yesterday and today I completed another prototype with different blades after the ''liquid nails'' finally set (liquid nails is a cheapish glue). Though my New Year's Day little one is still the fastest spinner. I noticed over the last week how uneven wind flow makes the spinners have a wobbley. lol

Observing is showing me what I had partly anticipated.

[Dinwar]

What, that when you build a pinwheel and apply wind it spins? This isn't a turbine--a turbine has a motor attached to it, which slows down the blades by causing resistance. What you've built right now is essentially identical to the little plastic things my grandmother puts in her front lawn every Easter.

I noticed over the last week how uneven wind flow makes the spinners have a wobbley. lol

Yeah.....see, on a full-scale model, one that actually can produce appreciable amounts of power, this wouldn't be an lol situation, it'd be more a "OH DEAR GOD RUN!" situation. Those wobbles can destroy structures much stronger than a windmill (several bridge and building disasters come to mind). The fact that your model wobbles means you're not even close to construction.

[ApolloGnomon]

Are you implying my prototypes have no torque?

No, I'm telling you that applying no load tests for no load performance. How would I know how much torque your pinwheel has? You've never tested it.

Some helpful links, assuming you're actually trying to build something. Which I doubt, as you've failed to provide evidence of anything other than a moderate ability to type.
http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/torque/Q.torque.intro.html
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phptorque/torque_equation_torque.php
http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/torque_motor.htm
http://www.solarbotics.net/bftgu/tutorials_mech_torque.html

Is it true what I heard the other day about Americans trying to scrap international patents?

Red herring. Links?

The Saudi's won't like me if my new VAWT succeeds, cos then I maybe bring out my even better idea to run automobiles...

If it involves a propeller on the roof, they'll just laugh at you. I already am, as I suspect this is your idea.

[likelystory]

What, that when you build a pinwheel and apply wind it spins? This isn't a turbine--a turbine has a motor attached to it, which slows down the blades by causing resistance. What you've built right now is essentially identical to the little plastic things my grandmother puts in her front lawn every Easter.

Yeah.....see, on a full-scale model, one that actually can produce appreciable amounts of power, this wouldn't be an lol situation, it'd be more a "OH DEAR GOD RUN!" situation. Those wobbles can destroy structures much stronger than a windmill (several bridge and building disasters come to mind). The fact that your model wobbles means you're not even close to construction.

I know how to build a frame work structure to almost cancell out the vibrations. I don't think your grandma builds 30 inch models??

[Dinwar]

Doesn't matter. The principle is the exact same, as is the load. The fact that your model is slightly larger is irrelevant.

And "almost cancel out" is NOT good enough for these wobbles. If it generates a standing wave you'll destroy the structure and kill someone. On a full-scale model this is literally a life-and-death situation. You need to not have ANY wobbles.

[likelystory]

Doesn't matter. The principle is the exact same, as is the load. The fact that your model is slightly larger is irrelevant.

And "almost cancel out" is NOT good enough for these wobbles. If it generates a standing wave you'll destroy the structure and kill someone. On a full-scale model this is literally a life-and-death situation. You need to not have ANY wobbles.

Please define wobble.... macro or major

[excaza]

What's the a difference between 'macro' and 'major'

[Dinwar]

Please define wobble.... macro or major :jaw-dropp

And you want to revolutionize energy production?

[rwguinn]

Doesn't matter. The principle is the exact same, as is the load. The fact that your model is slightly larger is irrelevant.

And "almost cancel out" is NOT good enough for these wobbles. If it generates a standing wave you'll destroy the structure and kill someone. On a full-scale model this is literally a life-and-death situation. You need to not have ANY wobbles.

Please define wobble.... macro or major
Wow.
hint: Applied force is M*R*W2, at frequency W/(2*Pi)

[likelystory]

What's there a difference between 'macro' and 'major'

Of course a little bit of movement don't matter. I watched my twisters get buffeted alot over the last few days , and they withstood quite well against the wind turbulence......... I reckon they were doing about 10 to 15 rev's per second. Maybe twenty ;)

[Dinwar]

When you kill someone, likelystory, this thread is going to come up in the court case. Something to keep in mind.

[ApolloGnomon]

Of course a little bit of movement don't matter. I watched my twisters get buffeted alot over the last few days , and they withstood quite well against the wind turbulence......... I reckon they were doing about 10 to 15 rev's per second. Maybe twenty ;)

Most JREFers just wanna sit back and laugh at your obvious lack of formal training in all the fields relevant to your enterprise, but I'll try to help you a bit. I'm an amateur mad scientist myself. Consider it a pity ****. To properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 regarding the auto-censor.

If you don't know the rpm's any better than that you're in trouble. You need a small anemometer mounted near your wind collection point, and an optical tachometer like those used for RC airplanes.

http://www.thefind.com/sports/info-optical-tachometer
http://www.origami-kids.com/shopping/en/230565299397/micro-digital-tachometer-for-rc-airplane-lt-helicopter.html
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/184-0934804-2909663?asin=B000AO2PT0&AFID=Froogle_df&LNM=|B000AO2PT0&CPNG=patio%20garden&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=B000AO2PT0&ref=tgt_adv_XSG10001

If you're even a little bit serious, you'll spend a hundred bucks.

For low-power testing I recommend going to pawn shops and thrift stores looking for old cassette tape decks. The older and more expensive they were originally the better. The motors are high efficiency and you can probably scavenge the pulleys and gears too.

Cheap dc motors have "cogging" -- when you spin the rotor you can feel the coils and magnets interacting. This increases the amount of torque you need to get it moving, increases the amount of mechanical resistance in the unit and lowers electrical efficiency. Expensive tape decks have motors that don't do this. Some of them even have tach output wires you can hook into something to check your speed.

While you're at the pawn shops look for old analog multimeters. They're worth having in large quantities.

Do you know what a Basic Stamp is? Get one of those and start figuring out how to use it -- you can run your whole system on one, and they're not very much money.

Yes, you'll need electronics controls to do this. You need to monitor rpm, wind speed, power output, vibration amplitude and frequency for both your rotor vanes and your mast, and charge status of your power storage system. And you'll need to use that information to control things like your charge board and maybe shaft brakes to slow the rotor down in high wind conditions.

Basic Stamps:
http://www.parallax.com/tabid/295/Default.aspx

I use old panel meters (google "surplus") with alligator clips to monitor volts and amps for bench beasts. You can use a multimeter, but digital meters eat batteries when you leave them running all day and night. Analog meters are better for this use.

If you don't know much about basic analog electronics go get this book:

http://www.forrestmims.com/getting_started_in_electronics.jpg

Removed hotlinked image. Please see Rule 5.

http://www.forrestmims.com/

It's easy to read and has great example circuits in the back that actually work. I'm on my third copy -- seems at first like a kids' book but I keep going back to it for little things since I'm not an electronics engineer.

[likelystory]

When you kill someone, likelystory, this thread is going to come up in the court case. Something to keep in mind.

Your sounding insane. I will not let ranting skeptics try to bluff me with lies and scare tactics.

[Dinwar]

Most JREFers just wanna sit back and laugh at your obvious lack of formal training in all the fields relevant to your enterprise, but I'll try to help you a bit.We tried. It's been 16 pages and we know the following about his turbines:

1) They're oriented vertically

......


......

Yeah, that's about it.

It's not that we don't want to help, it's that likelystory isn't interested in help. He refuses to provide enough information to ALLOW us to help.

[excaza]

Of course a little bit of movement don't matter.
a.) Wrong.
b.) That doesn't answer my question.

I watched my twisters get buffeted alot over the last few days , and they withstood quite well against the wind turbulence......... I reckon they were doing about 10 to 15 rev's per second. Maybe twenty ;)

a.) So what?
b.) That doesn't answer my question.

[ApolloGnomon]

We tried. It's been 16 pages and we know the following about his turbines:

1) They're oriented vertically

......


......

Yeah, that's about it.

It's not that we don't want to help, it's that likelystory isn't interested in help. He refuses to provide enough information to ALLOW us to help.

I'm an incurable optimist.

[Dinwar]

Your sounding insane. I will not let ranting skeptics try to bluff me with lies and scare tactics. I'm not insane, I'm concerned. People die when large-scale construction goes bad (I've seen it happen), and "wobbles" make things go bad really quickly. I grew up around engineers--I've seen the lengths they have to go to to ensure that people don't die when they build things. "Wobbles" are to engineers what "front lines" are to soldiers and "fully engulfed structure fire" is to a fire fighter--just about the worst thing you can hear. YouTube has videos of bridges collapsing because of "wobbles" that built into standing waves and ripped them apart like tissue paper. NEPA requires massive amounts of research to ensure "wobbles" cause by earthquakes don't burry people. This isn't a minor issue. This is life and death. And I'm not trying to scare you--I'm merely trying to impress upon you the seriousness of building a full-scale wind turbine that runs the risk of self-destructing.

[likelystory]

I'm not insane, I'm concerned. People die when large-scale construction goes bad (I've seen it happen), and "wobbles" make things go bad really quickly. I grew up around engineers--I've seen the lengths they have to go to to ensure that people don't die when they build things. "Wobbles" are to engineers what "front lines" are to soldiers and "fully engulfed structure fire" is to a fire fighter--just about the worst thing you can hear. YouTube has videos of bridges collapsing because of "wobbles" that built into standing waves and ripped them apart like tissue paper. NEPA requires massive amounts of research to ensure "wobbles" cause by earthquakes don't burry people. This isn't a minor issue. This is life and death. And I'm not trying to scare you--I'm merely trying to impress upon you the seriousness of building a full-scale wind turbine that runs the risk of self-destructing.

I have been thinking of safety first. So don't under estimate my own mind. I don't want to create death traps. So please keep your anxiety to NOT ME!!!

[Dinwar]

You have visible wobbling in your turbines. This is a Bad Thing (tm). If you wish to ignore it, have fun. I consider it an obligation to point out the dangers, both to innocent people and to you yourself.

[likelystory]

You have visible wobbling in your turbines. This is a Bad Thing (tm). If you wish to ignore it, have fun. I consider it an obligation to point out the dangers, both to innocent people and to you yourself.

I have not ignore the wobbles..... So tell me how great are these wobbles? You are obviously trying to make a mountain out of an ''underground mole hill''.......

You haven't even seen my models and you are screaming potential murder...

Now Apollo who ever seems like he would be interested in my extension of people's previous inventions....

You Dinwar are a henny penny scare monger,but I deny you :)

[excaza]

I have not ignore the wobbles..... So tell me how great are these wobbles?

How do you expect anyone to do that when you refuse to produce any specific details about your turbine?

[Dinwar]

You haven't even seen my models and you are screaming potential murder...
No. Murder implies intent. I'm saying that you lack the knowledge necessary to make the assessment you're making. This is fairly well supported in this thread--you've consistently shown that you don't understand engineering, physics, how to measure things, etc. I guess the closest legal term would be "negligent homocide".

So tell me how great are these wobbles? Wrong way 'round. YOU need to tell US the details of your invention if you want us to evaluate them. As youv'e provided less than the bare minimum of data necessary, I'm forced to deal with the whole potential spectrum of wobbles--everything from just big enough to see to oscilations that just barely keep from ripping the thing off its axil. None of these are good. And your proposed method to deal with them (as far as you've proposed one) creates the very real possiblity of generating a standing wave.

You Dinwar are a henny penny scare monger,but I deny youI don't care if you accept or deny me--I'm not pretending to be a god or anything--I just care that your device at least doesn't result in someone being killed. And right now you haven't provided sufficient evidence that this is true, while you HAVE provided enough evidence to make me worry.

[likelystory]

No. Murder implies intent. I'm saying that you lack the knowledge necessary to make the assessment you're making. This is fairly well supported in this thread--you've consistently shown that you don't understand engineering, physics, how to measure things, etc. I guess the closest legal term would be "negligent homocide".

Wrong way 'round. YOU need to tell US the details of your invention if you want us to evaluate them. As youv'e provided less than the bare minimum of data necessary, I'm forced to deal with the whole potential spectrum of wobbles--everything from just big enough to see to oscilations that just barely keep from ripping the thing off its axil. None of these are good. And your proposed method to deal with them (as far as you've proposed one) creates the very real possiblity of generating a standing wave.

I don't care if you accept or deny me--I'm not pretending to be a god or anything--I just care that your device at least doesn't result in someone being killed. And right now you haven't provided sufficient evidence that this is true, while you HAVE provided enough evidence to make me worry.

I am currently experimenting with my incomplete devices, got that? No current potenial harm to anyone.........

Hey are you saying that automobiles are made safe without any possible harm and likely death to people? Of course you don't want to go there,have you taken the car manufacturers to court Dinwar?

[ben m]

I reckon they were doing about 10 to 15 rev's per second. Maybe twenty ;)

Another number! Amazing!

It's only taken 16 pages to get there.

Rotor height: _____
Rotor diameter: ____
Separation between rotors: "three feet"
Rotor speed: "10-20 rps" at a wind speed of _____ when torque _____ is applied to the hub.

If you can fill in the rest of the numbers---yes, we need all of them---we can help you understand the efficiency.

[rwguinn]

I know how to build a frame work structure to almost cancell out the vibrations. I don't think your grandma builds 30 inch models??

Another number! Amazing!

It's only taken 16 pages to get there.

Rotor height: _____
Rotor diameter: 30"
Separation between rotors: "three feet"
Rotor speed: "10-20 rps" at a wind speed of _____ when torque _____ is applied to the hub.

If you can fill in the rest of the numbers---yes, we need all of them---we can help you understand the efficiency.
Wait! We got another number!

[Dinwar]

Another number! Amazing!

It's only taken 16 pages to get there.

Rotor height: _____
Rotor diameter: 30"
Separation between rotors: "three feet"
Rotor speed: "10-20 rps" at a wind speed of _____ when NO torque is applied to the hub.

If you can fill in the rest of the numbers---yes, we need all of them---we can help you understand the efficiency.
Two new numbers.

[rwguinn]

Two new numbers.
and at 10 rev/sec, the root force is 176g.*

He's using liquid nails-a plastic-to hold 'em on...



ETA:
* if the mass distribution is centered at mid-span

[Dinwar]

I had wondered about the liquid nails thing, but considering likelystory's reaction to my statements about wobbles and structural integrity I decided not to ask.

[Little 10 Toes]

I am currently experimenting with my incomplete devices, got that? No current potenial harm to anyone.........

Hey are you saying that automobiles are made safe without any possible harm and likely death to people? Of course you don't want to go there,have you taken the car manufacturers to court Dinwar?

Referring to the automobile comments: People sue automobile manufactures once it has been determined that it was their products that caused injuries. Look for the Ford Explorer rollovers and the Toyota acceleration recalls. You have acknowledged on a public forum that your 30 inch prototype has wobbles. If you ever make large scale models, or even if you make actual size models, and someone dies, gets injured, or if there is property damage, this forum could be used as evidence of your gross incompetence or whatever legal term there is. I believe there is a difference between knowing something is wrong and knowing something is wrong while not fixing it.

[edit: If you're a jerk and crash into me, you bet I'm going to sue you to repair my vehicle and to take care of my injuries. Your fault for the accident, your responsibly to take care of the damages. As the joke goes, the most dangerous part of any vehicle is the nut behind the wheel.]


*NOTE: I am not a lawyer/paralegal or any other occupation involved with law, law enforcement or any other legislative department, but I have watched tons of the original Perry Mason television show, and other police/law type shows. Barney Miller was good, but I never really saw Hill Street Blues. Cop Rock I never saw at all, but I do like watching Cops.

My opinion of the above is just that, an opinion, and it is not to be taken at all for any advice or recommendation. Your laws may very by location.

[likelystory]

Referring to the automobile comments: People sue automobile manufactures once it has been determined that it was their products that caused injuries. Look for the Ford Explorer rollovers and the Toyota acceleration recalls. You have acknowledged on a public forum that your 30 inch prototype has wobbles. If you ever make large scale models, or even if you make actual size models, and someone dies, gets injured, or if there is property damage, this forum could be used as evidence of your gross incompetence or whatever legal term there is. I believe there is a difference between knowing something is wrong and knowing something is wrong while not fixing it.

[edit: If you're a jerk and crash into me, you bet I'm going to sue you to repair my vehicle and to take care of my injuries. Your fault for the accident, your responsibly to take care of the damages. As the joke goes, the most dangerous part of any vehicle is the nut behind the wheel.]


*NOTE: I am not a lawyer/paralegal or any other occupation involved with law, law enforcement or any other legislative department, but I have watched tons of the original Perry Mason television show, and other police/law type shows. Barney Miller was good, but I never really saw Hill Street Blues. Cop Rock I never saw at all, but I do like watching Cops.

My opinion of the above is just that, an opinion, and it is not to be taken at all for any advice or recommendation. Your laws may very by location.

The prototype isn't a finnished product,it's meant to wobble due to the materials I 'm using.

It's called experimenting..... safe experimenting ;) ( I hope )

It all backs up my theory to vastly improve on the materials to minimise risk to the wildlife and people.

The other day ''two wattle birds'' flew past my very stable New Year's Day VAWT, and one of the wattle birds furtherest from the fast spinning VAWT kept it's flight path, yet the other wattle bird changed it's flight path to veer away from the easily seen VAWT...... I love the Wattle Birds and Willy Wag Tails :)

[excaza]

You shouldn't have a wind turbine that's meant to wobble, that's just awful design.

[BTMO]

You shouldn't have a wind turbine that's meant to wobble, that's just awful design.

Maybe it works like the dimples on a golf ball. Makes it more efficient....




























(No, I don't really think this is the case!)

[excaza]

Pretty sure LS hasn't even heard of a boundary layer ;)

[likelystory]

You shouldn't have a wind turbine that's meant to wobble, that's just awful design.

Of course it will slightly wobble with flimsy materials at strong winds speeds.

[TjW]

This is what happens even with correct materials and good engineering if the brakes fail.
Note that the forces tearing it apart do not depend on the axis of rotation.

u14tBwO5QVQ

[Dinwar]

Okay. What measures are you going to take at full-scale to prevent the wobble (and all the other structural defects which will rip the thing apart)?

[Dinwar]

A few videos about wobbles and structural integrity:

The bridge I had mentioned earlier. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw&feature=fvw)

A turbine failing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o)

A news report about a turbine failure. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbMO7ufATBc)

A news report on the problems with the generator, which you haven't started yet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liNIqYNHRXE&playnext=1&list=PLFDAF40BF8B475DBC&index=3)

More details about the first windmill video--the take-away here is "covering an area of over a half-mile". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLInrjUtFGI&feature=related)

[Andrew Wiggin]

The prototype isn't a finnished product,it's meant to wobble due to the materials I 'm using.

Good thing too. In finland, they build turbines that don't wobble.

[likelystory]

This is what happens even with correct materials and good engineering if the brakes fail.
Note that the forces tearing it apart do not depend on the axis of rotation.

u14tBwO5QVQ

Why are you showing me a HAWT........ Mines a VAWT. My VAWT can't explode like the HAWT in the video due to it's different shape.

[BTMO]

Why are you showing me a HAWT........ Mines a VAWT. My VAWT can't explode like the HAWT in the video due to it's different shape.

That's true. It can't explode like that.

It can (based on what you've written so far) explode in its own special way if the conditions are right.

[TjW]

Why are you showing me a HAWT........ Mines a VAWT. My VAWT can't explode like the HAWT in the video due to it's different shape.

Exploding differently will help how?

[likelystory]

and at 10 rev/sec, the root force is 176g.*

He's using liquid nails-a plastic-to hold 'em on...



ETA:
* if the mass distribution is centered at mid-span

Liquid Nails and Red Cloth Tape ;) It works like a gem :)

[likelystory]

Exploding differently will help how?

It won't explode or more specifically it won't SHATTER. IMHO

[likelystory]

That's true. It can't explode like that.

It can (based on what you've written so far) explode in its own special way if the conditions are right.

What VAWT has ever exploded? Show me a YouTube video of it.

[BTMO]

What VAWT has ever exploded? Show me a YouTube video of it.

No.

Find your own youtube videos.

The absence (or indeed the presence!) of a youtube video proves or disproves nothing.

[likelystory]

No.

Find your own youtube videos.

The absence (or indeed the presence!) of a youtube video proves or disproves nothing.

You are the one stating that my VAWT would exploded under the ideal conditions,and yet you can't even basically explain it....

Obviously you are misunderstanding the different shape of a VAWT as to a HAWT.

[BTMO]

You are the one stating that my VAWT would exploded under the ideal conditions,and yet you can't even basically explain it....

Obviously you are misunderstanding the different shape of a VAWT as to a HAWT.

Tough. It is a mechanical device, and based on the tiny amount of information you've provided, a poorly made one. IF it is subjected to high winds and is actually under load, it will be subjected to stresses. If those stresses are greater than the load capacity of the materials, it will fail.

This can be interpreted as "exploding" - ie, it will fall apart.

However, since you want a youtube video of an explosion, here is one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_XX2lIT1tQ).

It may even be real. Who knows...

[likelystory]

Tough. It is a mechanical device, and based on the tiny amount of information you've provided, a poorly made one. IF it is subjected to high winds and is actually under load, it will be subjected to stresses. If those stresses are greater than the load capacity of the materials, it will fail.

This can be interpreted as "exploding" - ie, it will fall apart.

However, since you want a youtube video of an explosion, here is one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_XX2lIT1tQ).

It may even be real. Who knows...

You haven't provided an exploding VAWT. You said my VAWT would explode under ideal conditions. Please explain or admit you posted inappropriately.

[BTMO]

No.

[tsig]

Of course a little bit of movement don't matter. I watched my twisters get buffeted alot over the last few days , and they withstood quite well against the wind turbulence......... I reckon they were doing about 10 to 15 rev's per second. Maybe twenty ;)

I must have missed 'reckoning' in my engineering classes.

[likelystory]

A few videos about wobbles and structural integrity:

The bridge I had mentioned earlier. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw&feature=fvw)

A turbine failing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o)

A news report about a turbine failure. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbMO7ufATBc)

A news report on the problems with the generator, which you haven't started yet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liNIqYNHRXE&playnext=1&list=PLFDAF40BF8B475DBC&index=3)

More details about the first windmill video--the take-away here is "covering an area of over a half-mile". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLInrjUtFGI&feature=related)

The videos are not abou VAWT's. Though those clips can show people how VAWT's are alot safer.

[tsig]

Okay. What measures are you going to take at full-scale to prevent the wobble (and all the other structural defects which will rip the thing apart)?

I doubt if LS has built anything. His descriptions are too vague.

[AdMan]

I doubt if LS has built anything. His descriptions are too vague.


I agree. Looks like he can't even show any pictures of his so-called "prototype."

I'd be surprised if he has actually built anything that even remotely turns.

[excaza]

The videos are not abou VAWT's. Though those clips can show people how VAWT's are alot safer.

They show nothing of the sort. They just show what happens when something spins faster than it's designed to.

[ApolloGnomon]

The prototype isn't a finnished product,it's meant to wobble due to the materials I 'm using.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJXU7EVXs2A


Wobble and vibration are unacceptable conditions in rotating objects. They are, all by themselves, a failure mode, and can create other, catastrophic failure modes.

Further, wobble is motion that is wasted, not captured by the system. Your super-efficient pipe dream will never be realized if your product is "meant to wobble."

Your construction techniques need refinement if you're going to proceed. Figure out WHY the wobble happens and make it go away.

[Dinwar]

You haven't provided an exploding VAWT. You said my VAWT would explode under ideal conditions. Please explain or admit you posted inappropriately. Okay. I'll do it. Again.

Your VAWT is already exibiting instability. If that instability sets up a standing wave/oscillations, it will eventually destroy the device. That's what destroyed the bridge I linked to the video of. If your VAWT exceeds safe operating speeds it'll shatter like a frag grenade, and considering the materials used to hold it together the safe operating speed would be exceeded before you could generate any power. Furthermore, the wobble would cause your bearings to wear unevenly, causing uneven force to be applied to a device traveling at fairly high velocities. This caused the catestrauphic failure in the HAWT, and the principles (friction, force, acceleration, and the like) don't change just because the axis does (these forces don't CARE about axes).

Is that clear enough?

The videos are not abou VAWT's. Though those clips can show people how VAWT's are alot safer. Unless you can show me how things like standing waves, friction, acceleration, torque, centripital force, and the like care whether your axis is vertical or horizontal, no, they don't. They show what can go wrong when really big machines aren't designed properly. The bridge failed because of improper design--and the warning was little wobbles in the bridge.

It won't explode or more specifically it won't SHATTER. IMHO I don't believe your opinion is based on anything. You've clearly demonstrated that your opinion about efficiency isn't. Just to be clear, I'm not intending this as an ad homonim attack--unless you can show some knowledge of the topic at hand, I'm going to have to go with engineers and physical evidence that you're wrong.

[ApolloGnomon]

It won't explode because it's only rotating at 60 - 120 RPM. This is abysmal, by the way, for a no load system, given that a dc motor based generator usually hits rated voltage at 1000 or 3600 RPM in my experience. Gearing up input RPM to generator's rotor means you need hella torque at the shaft. If likelydisaster's turbine is only spinning 120 RPM with ZERO load it will fall to zero RPM at even a very slight load.

Get rid of the wobble, and get that pinwheel going scary fast with no load and maybe he'll have something. The wind-capture efficiency/efficacy is too low, and the mechanical loss of power is too high.

[Mashuna]

You haven't provided an exploding VAWT. You said my VAWT would explode under ideal conditions. Please explain or admit you posted inappropriately.

I'm sorry, but for you to demand that someone explain or confess to inappropriate posting is laughable. You've been going for pages without explaining anything!

[likelystory]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJXU7EVXs2A


Wobble and vibration are unacceptable conditions in rotating objects. They are, all by themselves, a failure mode, and can create other, catastrophic failure modes.

Further, wobble is motion that is wasted, not captured by the system. Your super-efficient pipe dream will never be realized if your product is "meant to wobble."

Your construction techniques need refinement if you're going to proceed. Figure out WHY the wobble happens and make it go away.

I know why it wobbles, and I would not put a faulty product up for grabs on the market.

I knew before erecting the VAWT that there would be some wobble because of my slap dash approach, AND IT'S SPINNING LIKE WOOHOO.... Think how the real fabricated VAWT will perform with stablizers. VICTORY

[EHocking]

I know why it wobbles, and I would not put a faulty product up for grabs on the market.

I knew before erecting the VAWT that there would be some wobble because of my slap dash approach, AND IT'S SPINNING LIKE WOOHOO.... Think how the real fabricated VAWT will perform with stablizers. VICTORYWobbly VAWT destroys itself...
2iIDQ39urrM

[likelystory]

Wobbly VAWT destroys itself...
2iIDQ39urrM

Nice fast constant wind. My blade design is self balancing the faster the wind goes..... Think how much more with the stablizers ;)

[EHocking]

Nice fast constant wind. My blade design is self balancing the faster the wind goes.....YOu are probably confusing higher frequency wobble due to higher rotation. Self-balancing...:rolleyes:Think how much more with the stablizers ;)If it is "self-balancing, why the need for stabilisers?:boggled:

[likelystory]

YOu are probably confusing higher frequency wobble due to higher rotation. Self-balancing...:rolleyes:If it is "self-balancing, why the need for stabilisers?:boggled:

Because of cyclonic winds :)

[Little 10 Toes]

Wow, I believe everything you say.:rolleyes: Too bad you haven't shown any proof of anything.

[EHocking]

Because of cyclonic winds :)Balls.
What is the self-balancing mechanism that you purport to have installed?

[rwguinn]

Balls.
What is the self-balancing mechanism that you purport to have installed?
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/?gclid=CIeLgqC1zqYCFc4M2godXySiJA

But a bunch of beads inside...

Woo-Woo!

[RussDill]

I agree

I'm glad your calculation of ratio of thread enjoyment matches mine. So please, post pictures of your design!

[Dinwar]

Nice fast constant wind. My blade design is self balancing the faster the wind goes..... Think how much more with the stablizers To summarize:

You: I built it, put it under no load, and it wobbles!
Us: Wobbles are bad. You should work on that.
You: No they're not! I build safe things!
Us: Here are videos of how bad wobbles can be.
You: But they're not VAWTs so they don't count!
Us: Here is a video of a VAWT that wobbles and destroys itself.
You: But MINE won't do that!

AND IT'S SPINNING LIKE WOOHOO.... Think how the real fabricated VAWT will perform with stablizers. VICTORY No, NOT victory. First, you can't even generate electricity with this design (the reasoning is spelled out upthread). Second, your design has obvious, and dangerous, flaws. Third, you're not simply claiming to generate electricity, but to generate more electrical energy than there is kinetic energy in the wind (the reasoning is spelled out upthread).

[Mikemcc]

I do believe LikelyStory's idea has already been thought of by far more professional types:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/29/wind.energy.aerogenerator
http://www.greenmuze.com/climate/energy/2885-giant-aerogenerator-x-wind-turbine.html

[likelystory]

I'm glad your calculation of ratio of thread enjoyment matches mine. So please, post pictures of your design!

I can't as yet post pictures of my VAWT's ( I keep clipping their wings for vast improvements)....

Yesterday I was walking to get some booze, and I seen this different looking car in a vacant parking lot. So I stopped and eventually got speaking to a crowd of travelling Germans,

They, Stefan ? and Dirk Gion have an electric car powered by a Wind Propeller. Once the batteries are fully charged they can do a straight run of 400 km with a top speed of 50 kmph. It's a two seater,able to carry 150 kilograms of smiley people :) The car can travel at night with two powerful LED LIGHTS.

They had travelled from Sydney and had arrived in Perth yesterday.

They will be on the internet in four to five days. Dirk Gion appearently travelled across Australia from East Coast to West Coast back in November 2004 on a modified Wind Powered Skateboard http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/skateboard.australia/

[excaza]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's a difference between a turbine and a kite.

[likelystory]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's a difference between a turbine and a kite.

Please explain in a lengthy SPIEL or not ! :)

[Little 10 Toes]

One generates power, the other doesn't. I'll let you figure out which is which.

Why can't you take pictures of your alleged VAWT?

[ApolloGnomon]

I can't as yet post pictures of my VAWT's ( I keep clipping their wings for vast improvements)....

Yesterday I was walking to get some booze, and I seen this different looking car in a vacant parking lot. So I stopped and eventually got speaking to a crowd of travelling Germans,

They, Stefan ? and Dirk Gion have an electric car powered by a Wind Propeller. Once the batteries are fully charged they can do a straight run of 400 km with a top speed of 50 kmph. It's a two seater,able to carry 150 kilograms of smiley people :) The car can travel at night with two powerful LED LIGHTS.

They had travelled from Sydney and had arrived in Perth yesterday.

They will be on the internet in four to five days. Dirk Gion appearently travelled across Australia from East Coast to West Coast back in November 2004 on a modified Wind Powered Skateboard http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/skateboard.australia/

Maybe instead of booze you should spend 20 to 50 bucks on a cheap digital camera. Really, they exist. Look in grocery stores and places like Target or Big Lots. They're not with the "real" cameras but in blisterpacks. I just got a 30 dollar "camcorder" for my kid's 9th birthday, surprisingly good for the price and takes 3 megapixel stills as well.

So this electric car thingie -- was it charged by the propeller or was the propeller the motive force?

Did you ask them any technical specifics such as wattages, weights, volts, amp-hours . . . .

The wind powered skateboard -- did it use a wind turbine to generate electricity or was it a sailboard with wheels?

[likelystory]

Maybe instead of booze you should spend 20 to 50 bucks on a cheap digital camera. Really, they exist. Look in grocery stores and places like Target or Big Lots. They're not with the "real" cameras but in blisterpacks. I just got a 30 dollar "camcorder" for my kid's 9th birthday, surprisingly good for the price and takes 3 megapixel stills as well.

So this electric car thingie -- was it charged by the propeller or was the propeller the motive force?

Did you ask them any technical specifics such as wattages, weights, volts, amp-hours . . . .

The wind powered skateboard -- did it use a wind turbine to generate electricity or was it a sailboard with wheels?

I've got an Olympus 2 digitel camera though can't find the battery charger.

The electric car has a 6 meter upright pole with a three bladed propeller at the back of the car. The power from the prop makes electricity which goes into the ''wheels axel'' ( I may misunderstood hisexplaining when I was peering into the car, he took the back bonnet off and was telling me about it, though he wasn't Stefan or Dirk, he was some other German man who could speak clearer English) and then to a Lithium Battery Pack. I didn't see the electric car with the Propeller Pole Up, the pole is in two pieces,look like 6 inch diameter bamboo.

At 50 kmph the Prop puts out 1000 watts. And the car body is made out of the same material like Formula 1 Racing Cars, very light weight.

It wasn't an electric skateboard. I provided that link to show people who Dirk Gion was, he's a free adventurer.

[likelystory]

Dirk Gion and Stefan Zimmers ? will be on the internet in a few days under the name ''Wind Explorer''....

[BTMO]

So, something like this (wikipedia link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind-powered_vehicle#Wind-powered_electric_vehicles)?

Wait... they are driving across Australia, using just a wind generator for power??

Did it not occur to them to use solar power as well?

[likelystory]

I do believe LikelyStory's idea has already been thought of by far more professional types:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/29/wind.energy.aerogenerator
http://www.greenmuze.com/climate/energy/2885-giant-aerogenerator-x-wind-turbine.html

Interesting Links.

[likelystory]

So, something like this (wikipedia link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind-powered_vehicle#Wind-powered_electric_vehicles)?

Wait... they are driving across Australia, using just a wind generator for power??

Did it not occur to them to use solar power as well?

I never seen their propeller hub... Their car is a two seater with four wheels,the two wheels at the front of the car are ''disc'' the back two are ''spoked'.

The car is White with a little bit of advertising.

[ApolloGnomon]

I've got an Olympus 2 digitel camera though can't find the battery charger.

So go get a cheap charger! Quit making excuses and do something scientific. Otherwise you're just making noise.

The electric car has a 6 meter upright pole with a three bladed propeller at the back of the car. The power from the prop makes electricity which goes into the ''wheels axel'' ( I may misunderstood hisexplaining when I was peering into the car, he took the back bonnet off and was telling me about it, though he wasn't Stefan or Dirk, he was some other German man who could speak clearer English) and then to a Lithium Battery Pack. I didn't see the electric car with the Propeller Pole Up, the pole is in two pieces,look like 6 inch diameter bamboo.


okay -- so how big is the "propeller." Is it ducted or in any kind of frame? Why do they put it 6 meters into the air? Is the air going faster up there than it is 1 meter above the car surface? That makes no sense.

At 50 kmph the Prop puts out 1000 watts.

I'm calling BS on this. I don't think you're describing something that actually exists. In other words, I think you're making this up.

Electrical objection:
1000W = 12v at 83A, 24v at 42W, 36v at 28A. That's some hellacious power for a wind-driven prop, and WAY more than you should be dumping into a battery of any chemistry. Maybe you misunderstood the description -- 1000W is reasonable for the DRIVE motor(s) powering the wheels. The motor powering electric (Razor brand, for example) scooters are 350 or 500 watt, 24 or 36v motors. Higher voltage means smaller amps per watt, and smaller wire required to carry power.

Aerodynamic objection:
that prop is putting drag on the electric drive system, as is the 18 foot x 6 inch diameter bamboo pole. The pole is going to present 9 square feet of surface area to the wind. The wind resistance of a circular cross section is not just the frontal area but also the turbulence vortexes formed behind the pole, in effect dragging the pole backwards.

50km/H at sea level = 2.4 pounds per square foot. Running some quick calculations with

http://windpower.generatorguide.net/wind-energy.html
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/speed
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-pressure-d_1037.html

and Excel, I get 205 pounds of wind resistance just on just the FRONT of the pole. The surface friction of bamboo is higher than for a smooth pole. The turbulence behind the pole is another matter altogether. You will need to know how to calculate these things if you're going to scale your pinwheel up from the current size. If your structure is not sufficient to hold your pinwheel it will fall over. At that point your electrical generation will drop dramatically.

http://kai.gemba.org/pdf/MAE440/MAE440Exp04.pdf

Also, keep in mind the above calculates for the pole only, not for any prop or generator at the top of that pole. The 1000W you claim presents a windload of 6 to 7 horsepower, given that electric generators only harvest 20% of wind power. That's gonna cost you 5000W of drive power.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/power


Mechanical objection:
18' is a very long lever arm. If I'm driving this imaginary device at a speed that puts 1 pound of force on the prop/generator mounting point, that's 18 pounds of force at the bottom of the arm. (I'm ignoring the drag on the REST of the pole for now -- but keep in mind it only makes things worse) Five pounds of drag at the prop = 90 pounds of force at the bottom.
As listed above, the pole alone will present 205 pounds at the surface of the car. I'm not going to bother calculating for the load of the prop, because it's imaginary until proven otherwise, and anyway you didn't bother to mention how big it is.

The pole is going to flex and oscillate under wind load unless it has guy wires. Side winds coupled with forward motion will create uncentered loading on the pole mounting.

Aesthetic objection:
People who make a lightweight electric vehicle with LED lights and spokeless wheels aren't going to be pleased with strapping a big chunk of tree to the roof.


And the car body is made out of the same material like Formula 1 Racing Cars, very light weight.

I suggest you research to find out what that material is. If you don't know basic things like this, you're seriously handicapping your own research. This unnamed "material" you speak of might be very important in the construction of a high-efficiency wind generator.


In summary:
I think you're lying. I think you made up the whole thing. Maybe you saw an electric car at some point, but I think you made up all the other details.

[TjW]

At 50 kmph the Prop puts out 1000 watts. And the car body is made out of the same material like Formula 1 Racing Cars, very light weight.


50000 mph and all they can get is a kilowatt? I mean, good job designing something that will withstand winds of 3 times orbital velocity, but perhaps they should do a little work on the efficiency of their turbine. How often do they expect the wind to blow that hard?

[ApolloGnomon]

TjW -- this is why people say Bad Things about jref'ers. Mindless pedantic nitpicking and pretending to misunderstand his imprecise statement doesn't really help the topic move forward. Not that I see a lot of forward motion on threads here anyway.

Just because likelynonsense obviously doesn't know what he's talking about doesn't mean we NEED to be obnoxious. Personally, I prefer to be obnoxious by being overly informative.

[Craig4]

Thread Unlocked. I've had my Weeties :)

On the back of the box was there an explanation of the Laws of Thermodynamics?

[BTMO]

I never seen their propeller hub... Their car is a two seater with four wheels,the two wheels at the front of the car are ''disc'' the back two are ''spoked'.

The car is White with a little bit of advertising.

Wait....

They have a car that is powered by a wind propellor, you reckon you are building some sort of wind powered device and you didn't see or (I assume) even wonder where their propellor might be?

[TjW]

ApolloGnomon --It is generally considered rude to refer to a poster by changing his name to something derogatory.
I think it's very rude of you to say likelystory doesn't know what he's talking about.
Both to likelystory, and to other thread participants, who should be left free to make up their own minds about his expertise.
I'm sorry you disapprove of my taking likelystory at his word.

[ApolloGnomon]

oh KAY then. Sorry to offend.

[likelystory]

Wait....

They have a car that is powered by a wind propellor, you reckon you are building some sort of wind powered device and you didn't see or (I assume) even wonder where their propellor might be?

I didn't see the proppeller mounted on the tower.

When they post their completed journey onto the internet in a couple of days then you or we can see it.

[likelystory]

So go get a cheap charger! Quit making excuses and do something scientific. Otherwise you're just making noise.



okay -- so how big is the "propeller." Is it ducted or in any kind of frame? Why do they put it 6 meters into the air? Is the air going faster up there than it is 1 meter above the car surface? That makes no sense.



I'm calling BS on this. I don't think you're describing something that actually exists. In other words, I think you're making this up.

Electrical objection:
1000W = 12v at 83A, 24v at 42W, 36v at 28A. That's some hellacious power for a wind-driven prop, and WAY more than you should be dumping into a battery of any chemistry. Maybe you misunderstood the description -- 1000W is reasonable for the DRIVE motor(s) powering the wheels. The motor powering electric (Razor brand, for example) scooters are 350 or 500 watt, 24 or 36v motors. Higher voltage means smaller amps per watt, and smaller wire required to carry power.

Aerodynamic objection:
that prop is putting drag on the electric drive system, as is the 18 foot x 6 inch diameter bamboo pole. The pole is going to present 9 square feet of surface area to the wind. The wind resistance of a circular cross section is not just the frontal area but also the turbulence vortexes formed behind the pole, in effect dragging the pole backwards.

50km/H at sea level = 2.4 pounds per square foot. Running some quick calculations with

http://windpower.generatorguide.net/wind-energy.html
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/speed
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-pressure-d_1037.html

and Excel, I get 205 pounds of wind resistance just on just the FRONT of the pole. The surface friction of bamboo is higher than for a smooth pole. The turbulence behind the pole is another matter altogether. You will need to know how to calculate these things if you're going to scale your pinwheel up from the current size. If your structure is not sufficient to hold your pinwheel it will fall over. At that point your electrical generation will drop dramatically.

http://kai.gemba.org/pdf/MAE440/MAE440Exp04.pdf

Also, keep in mind the above calculates for the pole only, not for any prop or generator at the top of that pole. The 1000W you claim presents a windload of 6 to 7 horsepower, given that electric generators only harvest 20% of wind power. That's gonna cost you 5000W of drive power.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/power


Mechanical objection:
18' is a very long lever arm. If I'm driving this imaginary device at a speed that puts 1 pound of force on the prop/generator mounting point, that's 18 pounds of force at the bottom of the arm. (I'm ignoring the drag on the REST of the pole for now -- but keep in mind it only makes things worse) Five pounds of drag at the prop = 90 pounds of force at the bottom.
As listed above, the pole alone will present 205 pounds at the surface of the car. I'm not going to bother calculating for the load of the prop, because it's imaginary until proven otherwise, and anyway you didn't bother to mention how big it is.

The pole is going to flex and oscillate under wind load unless it has guy wires. Side winds coupled with forward motion will create uncentered loading on the pole mounting.

Aesthetic objection:
People who make a lightweight electric vehicle with LED lights and spokeless wheels aren't going to be pleased with strapping a big chunk of tree to the roof.




I suggest you research to find out what that material is. If you don't know basic things like this, you're seriously handicapping your own research. This unnamed "material" you speak of might be very important in the construction of a high-efficiency wind generator.


In summary:
I think you're lying. I think you made up the whole thing. Maybe you saw an electric car at some point, but I think you made up all the other details.

Bamboo is a grass,not a chunk of tree.

And the Bamboo Tower is fitted into the back end of the car, not the roof as you stated. There is no roof at all ;)

[BTMO]

Was the vehicle in fact drawn by happy rainbow unicorns?

[likelystory]

On the back of the box was there an explanation of the Laws of Thermodynamics?

Could have been,didn't read it,as I ate the box for extra fibre ;)

[TjW]

Was the vehicle in fact drawn by happy rainbow unicorns?

That's just silly. Their little hooves can't hold pencils.

[likelystory]

Was the vehicle in fact drawn by happy rainbow unicorns?

Can you draw happy rainbow unicorns?

[BTMO]

That's just silly. Their little hooves can't hold pencils.

I suggest you get to Google and look up Mr Squiggle...

(ETA) ... and extrapolate from there.

[TjW]

Can you draw happy rainbow unicorns?

Oh goodness gracious yes. They find me quite attractive. Indeed, I have had to invent the happy rainbow unicorn swatter so as to be able to move around.

[likelystory]

Balls.
What is the self-balancing mechanism that you purport to have installed?

Three looped poles into the central shaft continuing to the base of the Wind Machine. How's that for stablizing :)

[EHocking]

Three looped poles into the central shaft continuing to the base of the Wind Machine. How's that for stablizing :)Who cares? That was not the question being asked.

I wanted to know what mechanism you use for the self-balancing rotor blades.
My blade design is self balancing the faster the wind goes.....

[likelystory]

Who cares? That was not the question being asked.

I wanted to know what mechanism you use for the self-balancing rotor blades.

I see now

[EHocking]

I see nowand?

[likelystory]

and?

I explained it's the external structure....

[EHocking]

I explained it's the external structure....Again, nothing to do with the question about how this Originally Posted by likelystory http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=6794546#post6794546)
My blade design is self balancing the faster the wind goes..... is achieved.

How about just answering the question?

[rdrast]

This is just sad.
It can't be serious.

One shot at a (valid) analogy:
Ride a bicycle with lights and a friction driven generator.
Peddle without the generator engaged.
Peddle with it engaged.

Notice a difference? No matter what the prime mover is, wind, steam, peddling... any generator produces a mechanical load directly related to how much power is being drawn from it. "Bigger" magnets don't change that, nor do "Special Motors".

For what it is worth, you are not going to be improving motor (generator) efficiency in your garage at all. Current electric motors (generators) are typically greater then 93% efficient already. Tough to squeeze 10x or 100x more out of one.

Or did you design a 100C homeopathic motor?

[EHocking]

Basically he's full of it.

He claims to have spoken about his idea with Stanford University professor, Mark Z Jacobson about this...
I phoned Mark Z Jacobson a few minutes ago and asked him how much money it would be worth if the World was mainly run by Wind and some solar. He couldn't give me figures,yet said the health benifits would be great........The clue is in his Forum name - it is a common response in Australia, upon hearing verbal diarrhea, to respond sarcastically with,
"A likely story...".

[likelystory]

This is just sad.
It can't be serious.

One shot at a (valid) analogy:
Ride a bicycle with lights and a friction driven generator.
Peddle without the generator engaged.
Peddle with it engaged.

Notice a difference? No matter what the prime mover is, wind, steam, peddling... any generator produces a mechanical load directly related to how much power is being drawn from it. "Bigger" magnets don't change that, nor do "Special Motors".

For what it is worth, you are not going to be improving motor (generator) efficiency in your garage at all. Current electric motors (generators) are typically greater then 93% efficient already. Tough to squeeze 10x or 100x more out of one.

Or did you design a 100C homeopathic motor?

The new VAWT is real, no homeopathy at all. My new style of generator will be very quiet, even dogs won't notice them, and hopefully it doesn't distract the Bats.

[ApolloGnomon]

The new VAWT is real, no homeopathy at all. My new style of generator will be very quiet, even dogs won't notice them, and hopefully it doesn't distract the Bats.

Everything is imaginary until proven otherwise.
http://www.geeks.com/imageshare/0/300x300/00069-TREKKER-BP-box.jpg

Your Price: $12.99

Features/Specifications:

* Global Point Products 00069 Trekker 3 MP Digital Camera

* General Features:
* Color: Green
* Rugged design with rubberized feel
* 3-in-1 - digital camera, video camera and PC web camera
* 3 MP (megapixel)
* 4x digital zoom
* Secure Digital (SD) memory slot (holds up to 1 GB)
* 1.1-inch color preview screen
* Viewfinder
* 10-second self-timer
* Breakaway neck strap
* Uses two (2) AAA alkaline batteries (not included)
* Tripod socket

* Interface:
* USB

* Unit Dimensions:
* 2.5 x 3.75 x 0.8-inches (H x W x D, approximate)

* Regulatory Approvals:
* FCC

Package Includes:

* Global Point Products 00069 Trekker 3 MP Digital Camera
* USB cable
* Neck strap
* Driver and User Manual on 3-inch CD

Additional Information:

* Notes:
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* Requirements:
* Two (2) AAA batteries
* Secure Digital (SD) memory card
* Windows 98SE/Me/2000/XP
* 500 MB of more free hard drive space
* 128 MB RAM or more memory
* Available USB port
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=00069-TREKKER-BP&cat=CAM

[AdMan]

The new VAWT is real, no homeopathy at all. My new style of generator will be very quiet, even dogs won't notice them, and hopefully it doesn't distract the Bats.


How long are you going to continue playing this game?

I thought you were done with it when you "LOCKED" the thread and then when you declared "VICTORY" and went back to your batty moon landing hoax thread.

I'm wondering why you keep coming here. You do realize that there is no one here who believes your claims, don't you? And yet you refuse to provide any solid proof for any of you claims.

Seriously, I'm curious. You really find pleasure in trolling for 19 pages?

[Andrew Wiggin]

Because of cyclonic winds :)

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

[likelystory]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...


1) d4

[tsig]

Three looped poles into the central shaft continuing to the base of the Wind Machine. How's that for stablizing :)

Three drunken Polish support the base?

[tsig]

I've got an Olympus 2 digitel camera though can't find the battery charger.

The electric car has a 6 meter upright pole with a three bladed propeller at the back of the car. The power from the prop makes electricity which goes into the ''wheels axel'' ( I may misunderstood hisexplaining when I was peering into the car, he took the back bonnet off and was telling me about it, though he wasn't Stefan or Dirk, he was some other German man who could speak clearer English) and then to a Lithium Battery Pack. I didn't see the electric car with the Propeller Pole Up, the pole is in two pieces,look like 6 inch diameter bamboo.

At 50 kmph the Prop puts out 1000 watts. And the car body is made out of the same material like Formula 1 Racing Cars, very light weight.

It wasn't an electric skateboard. I provided that link to show people who Dirk Gion was, he's a free adventurer.

For want of a battery charger the picture was lost

For want of the picture the theory was lost

For want of the theory the energy was lost

For want of the energy the nation was lost

And all for the want of a battery charger.

[Paulhoff]

For want of a battery charger the picture was lost

For want of the picture the theory was lost

For want of the theory the energy was lost

For want of the energy the nation was lost

And all for the want of a battery charger.
I think you NAILED that one.

Paul

:) :) :)

[ApolloGnomon]

1) d4

Sure ya don't mean one d ten T?

[likelystory]

For want of a battery charger the picture was lost

For want of the picture the theory was lost

For want of the theory the energy was lost

For want of the energy the nation was lost

And all for the want of a battery charger.


What are you going on about? What have pictures got to do with my basic prototypes and intent to patent my new VAWT?

It's seems you type of skeptics are too inconsistant to discuss new ideas.How about performing self examination from time to time.

[jsfisher]

What are you going on about? What have pictures got to do with my basic prototypes and intent to patent my new VAWT?

It's seems you type of skeptics are too inconsistant to discuss new ideas.How about performing self examination from time to time.

What discussion of new ideas would that be? So far, you have simply waved your hands about how great it will be without any specificity about what "it" actually is.

Oh, yeah, and you tried to start a chess game as just one of many, many evasions.

[Dinwar]

What are you going on about? What have pictures got to do with my basic prototypes and intent to patent my new VAWT?
Someone who is inable to purchase batteries and photograph their design is probably not able to produce revolutionary new energy technology. Saying you can't take a picture is a cop-out.

It's seems you type of skeptics are too inconsistant to discuss new ideas.How about performing self examination from time to time. No, the discussion has been perfectly consistent: You make a claim, we ask for proof, you refuse. Rinse and repeat, throwing in the occasional insult (see above). A constant stimulus will yield a constant response. When you change up the stimulus--for example, by providing data which may support your claim--I, for one, will change my response.

[ben m]

It's seems you type of skeptics are too inconsistant to discuss new ideas.How about performing self examination from time to time.

If you wanted to "discuss new ideas" you wouldn't ignore all questions about the basic size and shape of your "new idea".

[AdMan]

likelystory, I asked this question before, but for whatever reason, you decided to ignore it, so here it goes again, simplified so it's easier to understand:

You are making wildly unbelievable and improbable claims, and, despite numerous requests, you refuse to provide any proof at all that what you are claiming is true. If your intent was to convince people, you haven't been too successful--as far as I can tell, no other poster in this thread believes you.

So, what is your purpose in starting this thread and continuing to post here?

[ApolloGnomon]

If you wanted to "discuss new ideas" you wouldn't ignore all questions about the basic size and shape of your "new idea".

Further, several of us have attempted to educate likelystory about some of the basic scientific principles behind the technology of wind, generators, magnets; all this appears to be ignored.

I'll continue my strategy of teaching a pig to sing, mostly 'cuz it stimulates my own creativity to do so.

Why vertical, though? I still don't get that part. They're inherently less efficient at capturing power from wind.

[likelystory]

Further, several of us have attempted to educate likelystory about some of the basic scientific principles behind the technology of wind, generators, magnets; all this appears to be ignored.

I'll continue my strategy of teaching a pig to sing, mostly 'cuz it stimulates my own creativity to do so.

Why vertical, though? I still don't get that part. They're inherently less efficient at capturing power from wind.

When and if you see my patent or complete working model then you'll see how much people got stuck in the box. Universities and Schools destroy creative thinking which in turn inhibits knowledge.... And you probably don't get what I said then.

People and myself have been conditioned by the system from early days. Just say no against the New World Government and then you can think for yourself.

My new VAWT has the potential to power 70% to 90% of the World's electricity requirements for lighting and cooking and heating and air conditioning systems.

[Crossbow]

When and if you see my patent or complete working model then you'll see how much people got stuck in the box. Universities and Schools destroy creative thinking which in turn inhibits knowledge.... And you probably don't get what I said then.

People and myself have been conditioned by the system from early days. Just say no against the New World Government and then you can think for yourself.

My new VAWT has the potential to power 70% to 90% of the World's electricity requirements for lighting and cooking and heating and air conditioning systems.

You are quite wrong.

Considering that you have not even demonstrated your prototype, then you will not be able to do anything of the sort.

Free energy scams and plans come up all the time, and all of them are soon shown to be nothing more than scams and plans that are not worth the paper that they are printed on.

[Hellbound]

Universities and Schools [teach their students about science which will] destroy [the fantasy scenarios they wish were true that they call] creative thinking which in turn inhibits [the mythological constructs that the ignorant call] knowledge.... And you probably don't get what I said then.

I think I got it perfectly, and translated it here for the rest of the readers.

[rwguinn]

I think I got it perfectly, and translated it here for the rest of the readers.
I think a minor omission from Adam Savage would be a closer translation:
I reject your reality, and substitute my own

[Andrew Wiggin]

1) d4

1 d 20 first. Subtract from THACO. If you hit, then 1 d 4 (is this a dagger I see before me?), but you'd best roll high, as I get a rather good reaction bonus and I'm hardly surprised...

[Andrew Wiggin]

Actually, 1 d 10 first, for initiative, if we're going to do this thing. I got three, by the way, so roll low.

Edited to add: I just realized I'm not off topic; the true subject of the thread appears to be 'the mathematics of a fantasy world'.

[excaza]

1 d 20 first. Subtract from THACO. If you hit, then 1 d 4 (is this a dagger I see before me?), but you'd best roll high, as I get a rather good reaction bonus and I'm hardly surprised...

To be honest, that was the first thing that came to my mind when I read that...nerds unite :boxedin:

[Dinwar]

When and if you see my patent or complete working model then you'll see how much people got stuck in the box. Universities and Schools destroy creative thinking which in turn inhibits knowledge.... And you probably don't get what I said then.
No. They simply teach what we know to be true, and why we know it.

People and myself have been conditioned by the system from early days. Just say no against the New World Government and then you can think for yourself.

Evasion. This is nothing to do with the New World Order or anything like that--we have provided specific criticisms of your design, based on known laws of physics. Please respond to those.

My new VAWT has the potential to power 70% to 90% of the World's electricity requirements for lighting and cooking and heating and air conditioning systems. Your "prototype" is a pinwheel that won't spin fast enough to generate enough electricity to power a flashlight, for reasons explained. You've yet to provide enough data to convince anyone otherwise.

[tsig]

What are you going on about? What have pictures got to do with my basic prototypes and intent to patent my new VAWT?

It's seems you type of skeptics are too inconsistant to discuss new ideas.How about performing self examination from time to time.

You think we might have breast cancer?

[likelystory]

No. They simply teach what we know to be true, and why we know it.

Evasion. This is nothing to do with the New World Order or anything like that--we have provided specific criticisms of your design, based on known laws of physics. Please respond to those.

Your "prototype" is a pinwheel that won't spin fast enough to generate enough electricity to power a flashlight, for reasons explained. You've yet to provide enough data to convince anyone otherwise.

Could you please post a picture of a pinwheel which you think looks like my New VAWT. It's I want to get an idea of how you are picturing my prototype from my description thus far :)

[excaza]

Could you please post a picture of a pinwheel which you think looks like my New VAWT. It's I want to get an idea of how you are picturing my prototype from my description thus far :)

No. How about you post a picture of your prototype.

[AdMan]

Could you please post a picture of a pinwheel which you think looks like my New VAWT. It's I want to get an idea of how you are picturing my prototype from my description thus far :)


No. You post a picture of your "New VAWT" prototype.

You can't, because it doesn't exist.

[ben m]

It's I want to get an idea of how you are picturing my prototype from my description thus far :)

I think it's a St. Bernard Dog, wearing a knit sweater, smoking a corncob pipe, with three feet glued to a Lazy Susan. Three feet high? Check. Spins? Check. Involves liquid nails? Check. Fits all the details so far.

[AdMan]

Could you please post a picture of a pinwheel which you think looks like my New VAWT. It's I want to get an idea of how you are picturing my prototype from my description thus far :)


Oh, OK, here you go. This is based on all your detailed descriptions and data that you have posted in this thread. :)

http://i.imgur.com/p3NxB.jpg

[likelystory]

Oh, OK, here you go. This is based on all your detailed descriptions and data that you have posted in this thread. :)

http://i.imgur.com/p3NxB.jpg

not quite AdMan, though i can't wait for Dinwar to post his picture :)

[EHocking]

No. You post a picture of your "New VAWT" prototype.

You can't, because it doesn't exist.I think it's rather ironic that despite creating a VAWT that will power 80% of the planet, Likelystory can't even charge the batteries in a camera...:rolleyes: