the murderer who finds god

[Suezoled]

Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation. Or more than one person, even. And then that murderer is caught, tried, and put to death. Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven. All is forgiven because he/she repents of their sins genuinely. (Or not even tried and killed, but convicted. Later, repented and never kills again, live out their life span, etc.)

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation. Or more than one person, even. And then that murderer is caught, tried, and put to death. Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven. All is forgiven because he/she repents of their sins genuinely. (Or not even tried and killed, but convicted. Later, repented and never kills again, live out their life span, etc.)

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky.

This depends on whether or not you believe that repentence can happen after death.

-Elliot

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation.
Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven.

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sinWell, it doesn't exactly sound like you're asking permission... but just in case, I'd say don't do it!

I think we can agree in the hypothetical that those people were unlikely to find God anyway and you, well sure you might make an act of perfect faith right there at the end, but I ask you to think about all the sinning you'll leave undone. ;)

[hgc]

Originally posted by Suezoled
...

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky. Let that be a lesson to you to repent this very friggin' instant, for ye know not when death cometh a-beckoning.

What about the Nobel prize winner who rescued a passel of school children and ducklings from an oncoming steam locomotive, just after posting $10 to his imfirm great-aunt, and then got unexpectedly and horribly decapitated in a hat-blocking accident? Why must he burn in Hell for all eternity? Because instead of surrenduring his everlasting soul to his jealous, vengeful, capricious and cruel god, he paid fealty to his vanities.

Get with Christ now you heathens!

[Atlas]

Originally posted by hgc
What about the Nobel prize winner who rescued a passel of school children and ducklings from an oncoming steam locomotive.

Why must he burn in Hell for all eternity? ! Answer: Duckings are poopers. They grow up to be ducks. 'Nuff said.

[evildave]

Wasn't there a Chick tract about this?

Yeah. There was. "Old west" style. The sheriff arrests the big, bad bandito, who accepts Chick's god into his heart while in prison and goes to Chick's 'heaven'. The honest, upright sheriff who wasn't a god fearing man dies and goes straight to Chick's 'hell'.

Can't track it down, though.

Added: Ahh, there it is.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

They seem to have edited the original version to portray the sheriff less likably.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Suezoled
So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky.

I use this to piss off fundies once in a while. Since all children go to heaven if they die (you can usually get them to admit this), wouldn't you be doing them a favor if you ran around killing them? I mean, you're removing the chance (quite large, according to the fundies) that they will wind up suffering for eternity.

Sure, you'll go to hell. But it's a simple mathematical argument: If you can save ten souls for the cost of one, isn't that worth it? What reason, besides pure utter selfishness, would there be to not go around hacking little kids to pieces?

Another demonstration that the heaven/hell system is the most morally repugnant dogma in a long time.

Jeremy

[El Greco]

Perhaps there is a system of automatic repentance for murder victims. Or maybe they spend some time in the purgatory. There are always options. And even if they go to hell, hey, it was Devil's work, not God's.

Damn, I should be a theologian.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation. Or more than one person, even. And then that murderer is caught, tried, and put to death. Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven. All is forgiven because he/she repents of their sins genuinely. (Or not even tried and killed, but convicted. Later, repented and never kills again, live out their life span, etc.)

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend[repent] and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky.
This is why it's important to find God right away. Once again, because you never know when your number is up(i.e., you die).

As for the person(s) who died from the murder(s) we know this: The Holy Spirit continually works on that person throughout their lifetime in attempt to turn them towards God. The more the person rejects the Holy Spirit working in them, the less the effect the Holy Spirit will have on that person. If the person repeatedly rejects God, the less the Holy Spirit will be able to work in them.

God is not so narrow minded as your account depicts. God is about being fair to everyone. Everyone will have a chance to accept Him. The Holy Spirit will continually try to convert the non-believer.

[Cinorjer]

...God is not so narrow minded as your account depicts. God is about being fair to everyone. Everyone will have a chance to accept Him. The Holy Spirit will continually try to convert the non-believer.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh tonight. The Christian god might be a lot of things, but "fair" is not one of them. The religion itself is founded on playing favorites. If you're one of the "saved" when you die, you're allowed in the gates of heaven. Period. It doesn't matter if you were a good person all your life or scum up until the very end. Indeed, you can be murdered and go to Hell, while your murderer can be saved and go to Heaven.

To excuse this obvious lack of morality on God's part, Christians have developed the rationalization that:

(1) We're all scum until we're saved (original sin) so good deeds don't count. If you're not a Christian, God sees no difference between a person who saves lives and a murderer. You're both sinners in his eyes.

(2) Somehow, somewhere, and against all evidence to the contrary, Christians actually believe that everyone is offered the chance to convert before they die. If you've ever heard the name of Christ mentioned and died a sinner, then you've had your chance and blew it.

(3) Besides, being "saved" isn't a right, it's a gift. Not even the saved have earned the gift. You can't complain because someone gives your neighbor a gift and not you. It's not up to you or me to decide we deserve the gift rather than the other guy. So there.

It's not fair, of course. It's not even ethical or moral. It's being part of an exclusive club where the club founder makes the rules, and can discriminate however he wants.

Jerry

[Riddick]

What's so unfair about being one of the saved? Are you not offered the opportunity to be saved?
God doesn't care how rich or poor you are. He doesn't care whether you've been good or bad. He can accept you despite either of those conditions.

Your buying extra presents for the poor and expecting payback for that is not going to sit well with God. Even I know that dude.

But I built all these houses for the poor --- surely that must count for something?

No, it doesn't --- all God wants you to do is accept him. It's a simple plan --- accept him and you're in.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Riddick
He doesn't care whether you've been good or bad. He can accept you despite either of those conditions.

Why does God ignore such defining characteristics of a person's character in favor of an arbitrary, easily influenced measure like religious belief? That seems suspect right there.

If there was a button you could push that would get a person out of hell (or at least offer him the chance to walk through a door), would you press it? I would. I'd hold it down. Why am I more forgiving and compassionate than your religion makes God out to be?

Jeremy

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Riddick
What's so unfair about being one of the saved? Are you not offered the opportunity to be saved?
God doesn't care how rich or poor you are. He doesn't care whether you've been good or bad. He can accept you despite either of those conditions.

Your buying extra presents for the poor and expecting payback for that is not going to sit well with God. Even I know that dude.

But I built all these houses for the poor --- surely that must count for something?

No, it doesn't --- all God wants you to do is accept him. It's a simple plan --- accept him and you're in.

ah, Riddick... who are you to tell god what to do?

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Suezoled
ah, Riddick... who are you to tell god what to do?
Of course, I would not attempt to tell God what to do. But salvation by faith is a key component.

God has the final say. There's a text that goes something like "Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish, but will have everlasting life." I'm sure one of you can quote me the text as you all brag about knowing the bible better than believers.

Note to all: bragging won't get you to heaven either.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by toddjh
Why does God ignore such defining characteristics of a person's character in favor of an arbitrary, easily influenced measure like religious belief? That seems suspect right there.

If there was a button you could push that would get a person out of hell (or at least offer him the chance to walk through a door), would you press it? I would. I'd hold it down. Why am I more forgiving and compassionate than your religion makes God out to be?
It is because you must realize that you can do nothing on your own. As many of you will point out, your own best "is as filthy rags compared to Jesus." It is through Christ that you are saved.

Maybe that person wants to be in hell. Most of you want to be in hell. Hell, you even make jokes about it. Maybe that person doesn't deserve to be saved from hell. Maybe there was so much hate in that person they should be in hell. You, in this case would be more forgiving because you're a lunatic and a psychopath.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Riddick

(snipped)
Note to all: bragging won't get you to heaven either.

There you go again, setting rules for god. How rude.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Riddick
Maybe that person wants to be in hell.

Yes, that must be it. All those perfectly nice people who just happened not to be Christian want to be burning in a lake of fire for eternity...right.

Maybe that person doesn't deserve to be saved from hell.

No finite transgression deserves infinite punishment. Again, why am I more forgiving than God in this regard? I can even forgive people who don't believe I exist. What's the big deal?

Maybe there was so much hate in that person they should be in hell. You, in this case would be more forgiving because you're a lunatic and a psychopath.

Right, because he's going to get in so much trouble in heaven? :rolleyes:

Even if the things you're saying were true (ignoring that they are ridiculous on their face), why not simply destroy those who are unable to accept Christianity? Why does your God feel the need to maintain a torture chamber?

Jeremy

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Suezoled
Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation. Or more than one person, even. And then that murderer is caught, tried, and put to death. Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven. All is forgiven because he/she repents of their sins genuinely. (Or not even tried and killed, but convicted. Later, repented and never kills again, live out their life span, etc.)

So, what about all those folks whom the murderer took away the opportunity to repend and find god? They died in sin, never had that chance, and never will thanks to that murderer who is now sitting by god in the big banguet table in the sky.
A few helpful bible quotes:
Ps.62:12
"For you render to each one according to his works."

Jer.17:10
"I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Mt.12:37
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Lk.10:26-28
"He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Jn.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Rom.2:6, 13
"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."

2 Cor.5:10
"For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

2 Cor.11:15
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

Jas.2:14
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."
The murderer goes to Hell, the ones he killed are judged according to their works. Faith is not enough to guarentee Salvation.

Lisa Simpson once said "Prayer, the last escape of a scoundrel". A murderer who repents only angers God.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Riddick
God is not so narrow minded as your account depicts. God is about being fair to everyone. Everyone will have a chance to accept Him. The Holy Spirit will continually try to convert the non-believer.
Everyone has a chance to accept him, but not a fair chance. God determines who gets this "chance", that isnt fair, is it?

It appears God designed me in such a way that I was unable to accept his existence. I'm rather out in the cold. Being omniscient, God knew full and well (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870297921&highlight=freewill+omniscience+paradox#post1870297 921) what he is doing, he knew full and well I was going to be nothing more than a lifelong atheist. If you believe God sends people to Hell on a basis of their beliefs, you believe in an evil god, one who wouldnt deserve my worship in the first place. An omniscient omnibenevolent god who demands worship from his creation, thats not a Judeo-Christian concept of God, those who believe those things about God do not worship the Christian God.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Riddick
Maybe that person wants to be in hell. Most of you want to be in hell. Hell, you even make jokes about it. Maybe that person doesn't deserve to be saved from hell. Maybe there was so much hate in that person they should be in hell.
I am altruistic, kindhearted, and I have a sense of humor. That's right, I humor the absurd, that doesnt leave much leeway for Hell to escape the many things I find hilarious.

Some folks might say that being an atheist, (and naturally as one's worldviews dictate their morals) I have no ethics or morals beyond my own selfish egoism... strange, I get a lot of comments about what a kind person I am. Nicer than some Christians, definitely.

I cannot name a single person who *deserves* to be torchured to death, much less a person who deserves to be set ablaze in inconcievable agony for 10^{9,999,999,999,999^{9,999,999,999,999^{9,999,999,999,999,999}}} years of the future. If you can, well then I'm afraid I'll ask you to rethink your morals.

You, in this case would be more forgiving because you're a lunatic and a psychopath.
Those kind of comments and judgements like that wont likely get you a girlfriend anytime soon.

[MLynn]

This thread is an interesting one. Prison conversions, faith vs. works, judgement - where does one begin? Luke 43 talks about one of the thieves crucified with Jesus and his "repentance" and Jesus said "ok, you'll be with me in paradise" (I'm paraphrasing). If indeed God knows the hearts/thoughts of people, He can sort everything out - no one is off the hook, the bogus "conversions" will be detected. Judgement starts with the "household" of God (I Peter 4:17).
I like reading Paul's letter to the Galatians (grace/faith) and the book of James (works) back-to-back because they compliment each other. Whew, what a thread. Of course any a-theist would discount this whole thing...P.S. I wonder how valid prison conversions are alot.

[MLynn]

Originally posted by Yahweh
... strange, I get a lot of comments about what a kind person I am. Nicer than some Christians, definitely.
Some of the most hard-hearted, vain-glorious people I've talked to are Xtians. I spend a lot of my time "preaching" love to the people who should be the ultimate lovers of people - I get so sad! :(

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Yahweh

A few helpful bible quotes:

The murderer goes to Hell, the ones he killed are judged according to their works. Faith is not enough to guarentee Salvation.

Lisa Simpson once said "Prayer, the last escape of a scoundrel". A murderer who repents only angers God.

Exactly. Lifetimes are not equal. What about Jonbonet Ramsey? The victims of Albert Fish, who were all juveniles? The victims or Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at the Columbine tragedy? The people who were killed in the bomb blast set by Timothy Mcveigh? The 911 plane crashes?
Or how about the non-christians? The countless Indian victims were killed because blankets purposely infected with the smallpox virus were given to them? The Aztecs with their bloody sacrifices to a bloody god? The greeks who worshipped a pantheon? The Hindus who revere cows even today?

Everyone has a chance to find god? Riddick... your line of reasoning is below insulting, your excuses less than reasonable for a god less than just or fair after all.

[fishbob]

Let's say someone kills another person in deliberation. Or more than one person, even. And then that murderer is caught, tried, and put to death. Before he/she is put to death, he/she finds God and goes to heaven. All is forgiven because he/she repents of their sins genuinely. (Or not even tried and killed, but convicted. Later, repented and never kills again, live out their life span, etc.)
What universe is this in? I don't expect to see this happen around these parts.

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by Riddick
What's so unfair about being one of the saved? Are you not offered the opportunity to be saved?
God doesn't care how rich or poor you are. He doesn't care whether you've been good or bad. He can accept you despite either of those conditions.

Your buying extra presents for the poor and expecting payback for that is not going to sit well with God. Even I know that dude.

But I built all these houses for the poor --- surely that must count for something?

No, it doesn't --- all God wants you to do is accept him. It's a simple plan --- accept him and you're in. Problem, Riddick...


It isn't accepting "god" that gets you "in", it's accepting "christ" that's supposed to "save" you.

Now, as to being offered the opportunity to be saved, most definately many people did NOT. I'm thinking of the people in the "new world" who were alive from the alleged Jesus' time, to the time the xians came over from Europe.

What chance did they have the change to accept "christ"?



<~~Edit: This is just a rehash of Suezoled's post.....

[Oleron]

Most Christians I have met have wriggled out of this argument by using the catch-all statement 'Well God will sort it all out in the end, we can't do his judging for him'

This seems to indicate that God maybe isn't so hung up on who converted or whatever but more on a judgement of the person themselves.

But this in turn means that in effect we can do nothing whatsoever about getting into heaven as we will be judged on a much deeper level than our acts.

If we are bad people we will go to hell, saved or unsaved.
If we are good people we will go to heaven, saved or unsaved.

Or maybe we CAN tip the scales in our favour after all - in which case we are back to the original paradox.

From my point of view, any God that could even dream up a place like Hell and cast anyone into it for eternity, is not worthy of worship.
If I got to heaven, I'd have to be some sort of unfeeling sicko to lounge around with angels peeling grapes for me, while my family/friends/whoever were simmering on Gas mark 6 for eternity.

[evildave]

Originally posted by Riddick
Note to all: bragging won't get you to heaven either.

Probably not @$$ kissing, either.

It's doubtful the rules you or most christians, muslims, etc. choose to live by will make a difference.

It could be that your hypothetical 'heaven' is wholly inaccessible, as is your 'hell', if not for being mythical fairy tale kingdoms (as most here suspect), then for other reasons.

The hypothetical god(s) involved in running these places may not want a bunch of undead vermin crawling around. Especially real brown-nosing, knees-bent, grovelling types.

Just about anything you could (or could never) imagine could allow or prevent entrance.

Including (but in no way limited to)...

Not being buried with pennies on your eyeballs so you can pay the ferry.

Not having three doggy treats for the three-headed dog that guards the place.

Not wearing a jacket and tie.

Not having a ticket stub from that asteroid orbiting Proxima Centauri.

Having the materialists turn out to be correct, and anything like an "afterlife" really is just so much impossible wishful thinking, and you really are lost/destroyed when that state encoded in that brain meat goes rancid.

Even with one or more "god(s)", you really may be as something less than bacteria to an omnipotent/omniscient/etc. being. It may only be interested in what the meat & bone humans do in the 'solid' world, and never bothered to make a 'spritual realm' to keep dead humans alive in. I mean, why bother?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Riddick
He doesn't care whether you've been good or bad. He can accept you despite either of those conditions.....




Urr, uhhhh...

You don't see the irony here... Good or bad, it doesn't matter..

Serial killer is reunited with victims in heaven....


This is not justice in anyone's mind outside of the convoluted dementia of religion...

[max]

What a subject matter and Sue I can't get my head around you. (but then again I can't get it round the S bend in the loo/Jon either!)
I've said before on this forum that Religion should have been left where it belongs....in the Dark Ages. The religious writings are the biggest load of lies on the planet in fact the stories don't even make good fiction. So, to get back to Sue......the murderer will sit alongside the victim in an afterlife. There can't be all these different setups. If there is something else, I say we'll all go to the same place, probably a parallel universe.

:p

[bjornart]

17 I thought in my heart, "God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time for every deed." 18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
Ecclesiastes 3

How come they didn't remove this from the bible? OK, he does say "I thought" a lot, but there's nowhere where he says, "but I was wrong".

Now, to the question at hand. If, like Riddiculous here, you believe that "believe in me and you shall live forever" goes, the conclusion is that god is an evil bastard. The alternative is to interpret the rest of the bible to give some sort of balance, "God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked", or you can do like the Mormons and invent some new stuff. "You can be saved in the afterlife, and it helps if someone who's living have you baptized post-mortem, so we'll spend lots of time doing genealogy."