Any advice on pushing someone to test?

[jgawne]

I collect military items. In fact I write books and articles about historical military stuff, and am somwhat well known in variosu parts of the field.

Along comes a guy who has published a book on how he and his team of expert psychics can read quantum signatures in artifacts and thus tell their history. Which has led to the psychics charging to authenticate" items and his being asked to do a scond volume.

Curiously, when they read the vibrations of some fake reproduction items they got a hit, which was later explained as the original owner had replaced his lost orignal with a reproduction and as he looked upon it the same, the energies it contained were similar... d'oh!

I have no axe to grind in this other than someone's making money off it, and people are falling for what (well to be nice I will say) seems to be "the read history). That and they did not send in the coupon form the comic book.

I've publically taken a stand and told him why bother selling books, when you can make a million bucks, etc etc etc. His reply was that he and his team of psychics are "considering how to do this."

I've pointed out it would be a pretty straightforward test to concoct. But I wonder if there is any way to push him some more- like have someone from JREF invite him or something.

if you wonder his book is 'World War II Ghosts: Artifacts Can Talk' by Richard J. Kimmel

[sadhatter]

I collect military items. In fact I write books and articles about historical military stuff, and am somwhat well known in variosu parts of the field.

Along comes a guy who has published a book on how he and his team of expert psychics can read quantum signatures in artifacts and thus tell their history. Which has led to the psychics charging to authenticate" items and his being asked to do a scond volume.

Curiously, when they read the vibrations of some fake reproduction items they got a hit, which was later explained as the original owner had replaced his lost orignal with a reproduction and as he looked upon it the same, the energies it contained were similar... d'oh!

I have no axe to grind in this other than someone's making money off it, and people are falling for what (well to be nice I will say) seems to be "the read history). That and they did not send in the coupon form the comic book.

I've publically taken a stand and told him why bother selling books, when you can make a million bucks, etc etc etc. His reply was that he and his team of psychics are "considering how to do this."

I've pointed out it would be a pretty straightforward test to concoct. But I wonder if there is any way to push him some more- like have someone from JREF invite him or something.

if you wonder his book is 'World War II Ghosts: Artifacts Can Talk' by Richard J. Kimmel

One thing i would say would be required would be various replicas with various histories. Some made right before the test, some that people have owned, some made a few months in advance and given an interesting life, etc.

For the recently made replicas videotape of their "lives" from creation to use in the test would be invaluable. It would give a real, pass or fail method of seeing if they can do what they claim.

That being said, with proper methodology they will avoid the MDC like the plague. My guess is they will design a test, and here is what they will want.

1. All items must be of legitimate historical value. No replicas.
( this will allow them less of a legitimate pass-fail scenario as it is impossible to know where a real item was every second of its life. )

2. All items must be from a certain period ( ww2, vietnam, etc. Whichever is their specialty. This will allow them to spin more accurate tales.)

3. They must be able to browse the items before the test. ( This will allow them to have some lead in time to come up with a story about them. )

This is both a hard and very easy claim to test. If their powers work as specified, they should have no trouble seeing the lives of replica items. But they will claim that the items need to be of a certain age, or some other method of ensuring that one cannot confirm their story. Making it no more than a story telling competition to convince the judges.

[rjh01]

Have a read of other threads in this sub forum. You will then understand that very few people want to take the MDC. The ones that do take it, fail it.

Your friend is making money taking it from gullible people. Why should he risk it all by taking this test when he knows that his ability is fake?

[wardenclyffe]

Think of all the extra books he'd sell after he proved his powers in an official test. It's not just the prize money, it's the book sales of his current and future books. He could win the million dollars, but he'd make so much more because he's got products to sell. Most applicants for the MDC don't have anything like that, so this guy could really make out like a bandit (literally).

He obviously wants to sell books or he wouldn't bother putting them up for sale. This is a sure way that his books could go into fourth fifth and sixth printings. And yet, I sense that he will not want to do this. I wonder why.

Ward

[wardenclyffe]

Also, the Million Dollar Challenge has a lot of obstacles, the the applicant must have a media presence. It sounds like Kimmel fellow has that, but he'll also need affidavits from someone in some sort of academic setting that says his powers are worth investigating. I don't know if he could get that. There are a number of other cash challenges, though, and most of them do not require all those pre-conditions. I'll include the list below. The first two on the list have a "finder's fee," so jgawne could receive a prize if Kimmel takes and wins the challenge. I know jgawne doesn't believe in Kimmel, but it's like buying a lottery ticket.

Winning any of these other challenges would almost certainly generate enough media presence and academic interest that the applicant would almost certainly qualify to take the Million Dollar Challenge.

It looks as though Kimmel is in NJ. I don't think there are any testing organizations that are very close by. The closest is probably the new IIG affiliate in Washinton, D.C..

So here's the list:

There's the Australian Skeptics' AU$100,000 Prize
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/prize/
They also offer AU$20,000 as a "Spotter's Fee"

There's the IIG's US$50,000 Challenge in California, USA
http://www.iigwest.org/challenge.html
They also offer US$5,000 as a "Finder's Fee"
The IIG now has affiliates in Washington, D.C. and in Atlanta, GA, making it easier for people who can't make it to the Pacific coast.

There's the North Texas Skeptic's US$12,000 Challenge in the USA
http://www.ntskeptics.org/challenge/challenge.htm

There's Prabir Ghosh's 2,000,000 Rupee Challenge in India
http://rationalistprabir.bravehost.com/

There's the Swedish 100,000SeK prize offered by Humanisterna
http://www.humanisterna.se/index.php...d=27&Itemid=49

The Tampa Bay Skeptics offers a US$1000 prize in Florida, USA
http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/challenges.html

In Canada there's the CAN$10,000 from the Quebec Skeptics
http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/activites/defi

In the UK, the ASKE organization offers £14,000
http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/challenge_rules.htm

Tony Youens in the UK offers £5,000
http://www.tonyyouens.com/challenge.htm

In Finland, Skepsis offers 10,000 Euros
http://www.skepsis.fi/haaste/

The Fayetteville Freethinkers in Arkansas, USA offer a US$1000 prize
http://fayfreethinkers.com/

There's a 1,000,000 Yuan prize in China offered by Sima Nan. This is his blog: http://blog.sina.com.cn/simanan

The Belgian SKEPP organization offers a 10,500 Euro prize
http://skepp.be/prijzen

If you find any broken links, or know of any tests not on this list, please notify me in this thread.

Thanks,

Ward

[USEagle13]

I remember one time I seen some scientists do the very same thing. Supposedly they can make 3d images come from the artifacts like a hologram. But it was on really old stuff from 1600's or sumin. Could be same group or copy cat. Prolly a copy cat is my guess. Don't even know if its a real field of study.

[jgawne]

I didn't know of all those other tests. That's pretty amazing. You could really make some serious money if you really could do this.

I know he doesn't want to take the test (and he's not my friend), I just want to put it there and tell him to "put up or shut up."

I have to admit I am totally jealous as I wish I had thought of this first. Of course had I done so I would written it so that if you read closely you could tell it was all a joke.

His book is rated one star at amazon. and its a publisher that will take essentially any manuscript you send them.

Well, I'll see what I can do. I know all the tales of how people worm out of this. But laying out all those other challenges is really a nice idea!

[wardenclyffe]

Good luck, jgawne. Let us know what happens.

USEagle13, I'd be very interested to read what you read or see what you saw about the scientists creating hologram-type images from historic objects. If you have a link or can remember where you saw it, please let us know in this thread.

Thanks,
Ward

[USEagle13]

http://www.shroudforum.com/

Seen it on channel 8 and on TBN about 5 years ago or so. I "think" this may "relate" to the scientist's findings. I cannot remember the "original" scientists names whom were involved.

There are a lot of "weird sciences" now do to the recent explosion in technology that the moon missions of the 60's helped create. (yes we "Eagles" did land on the moon :eek: .)