Americans claim to be more religious than they really are...

[headscratcher4]

http://www.slate.com/id/2278923/

Analyzing the polling data...interesting.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I'd written a thread about this some time ago. In only the last couple years, I found out one set of my grandparents, and my father, who had always acted like devout Catholics (including going to church regularly), actually don't believe in Christianity at all, and are agnostic. My whole life I never knew this.

Then I got a further surprise. I have a HUGE Italian family who always seemed to me to be devout Catholics, regular church goers. But now the last of my cousins has grown up and gone to college. This Christmas Eve, when we all got together, and my whole life, Christmas Eve meant going to church with the whole family. But this year, only a couple people wanted to go. I was shocked, and ended up finding out that almost my entire family was full of nothing but fake Catholics who are actually not really religious at all. They'd raised me and my siblings and cousins Catholic because they had this sort of belief that religion was a good and necessary thing, even if they didn't actually believe it. They really buy into the whole "even if its not true, you need religion to teach morals" - which doesn't make any sense to me, considering they're all moral people and they don't believe that God is watching and judging them. There also is the fact that Catholicism is very tied to our Italian heritage.

I had always thought I came from an entire family full of devout Catholics. We were made to go to church, Catholic education, read the Bible, pray, say the rosary, etc etc. Now that I'm an adult and they decided they could "let me in on it," I come to find out that of my dozens of relatives, only my mother, her parents and a couple other relatives actually have any real belief in Christianity.

[Tatyana]

I just found out this year that my mum is a non-believer.

I have always known she didn't like religion, but I didn't realise she was an atheist.

She also admitted that the allure of religion is more appealing as you get older and consider your own mortality.

[Mister Agenda]

In America religion is very politicized (candidates are graded on their religiosity). Also, and this is begging the question I guess, most Americans vaguely feel they should be religious, and will consider themselves so even if they normally drink beer on Sunday morning instead of going to church. Admitting they don't attend church regularly probably feels a lot like admitting failure.

[Weak Kitten]

This reminds m of a story my father likes to tell. Have any of you ever heard of a "trip to abilene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)"? I learned that story as a child long before I ever heard the term "groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)".

[geeter]

I had never heard of "traveling to Abilene". Discovering this type of information is exactly why I joined this forum. Thanks!

[Gawdzilla]

I've pointed out elsewhere that Merkins lie about religion because they're expected to. You say "Baptist", you say "Republican", without understanding what those words mean. IF you say them, nobody bothers you. They know you have no more clue than they do, so they don't challenge your belief. And nobody knows how to act like the words imply you should act. So they don't.

[Kopji]

I suspect that church attendance is one of the great hidden datasets. I've never been in a church anywhere, that did not count and record the weekly attendance.
Yet you will never know...

Sort of look forward to the time when our American sense of not wanting to waste time on silly nonsense runs head on into politics and religion.

[slingblade]

I had never heard of "traveling to Abilene". Discovering this type of information is exactly why I joined this forum. Thanks!

I agree, thanks for that!

And welcome to the forum, Geeter. :)
Spend some time in community, and get to know some of the "regulars."

[Gawdzilla]

I suspect that church attendance is one of the great hidden datasets. I've never been in a church anywhere, that did not count and record the weekly attendance.
Yet you will never know...
And they're not above lying about that figures when they need to. Jesus said it was okay.
Sort of look forward to the time when our American sense of not wanting to waste time on silly nonsense runs head on into politics and religion.
Two words: American Idol.

One more: "Wrestling"

[Aepervius]

I found out this christmas that all my family, are only pretend catholics. Some of the most basic tenets they don't believe or find simply outdated and to be dropped.

I live a few dozen meter from a church (very quiet except the bells and prayer on sunday...). I never saw it full (1/4 more like it) and they are mostly old people. I used to live near a cemetery + church in France (cheap and quiet) same things. The only "church" i ever saw full was a basilica (saint Denis basilica)...

Sure it is anecdotal but I am beginning to suspect church attendance from people are only PRETEND attendance.

[mikeyx]

In America religion is very politicized (candidates are graded on their religiosity). Also, and this is begging the question I guess, most Americans vaguely feel they should be religious, and will consider themselves so even if they normally drink beer on Sunday morning instead of going to church. Admitting they don't attend church regularly probably feels a lot like admitting failure.

define religion.... cuz this thread this far seems catholic oriented. As one who has and does explore sufism and buddhism in addition to christianity and finding politics rather nauseating, I guess im in the minority.

[sadhatter]

I find that claiming religion is a huge trend among the religious.

I mean, every " christian" ( and seeing as there are so many subsets, what exactly does this word mean anymore?) would say they believe in god and would follow what he says. But ask them what they would do if they were convinced that god was talking to them directly and the typical answer will be " see a psychologist. "

Religion at this point is nothing more than a way to hide one's bias and forget about impending death. When it comes to actually doing anything that the religion tells one too, that is when people start shying away.

[Orphia Nay]

Fascinating article, and link (re Abilene)! Good thread! Thanks, all.

[Bikewer]

I was raised Catholic, and my parents remained apparently devout... However, one night when somewhat intoxicated, my father told us he didn't believe in an afterlife....

I did begin to wonder how common these "pro-forma" folks are; how many seemingly participate without having any real belief....

[Gawdzilla]

I was raised Catholic, and my parents remained apparently devout... However, one night when somewhat intoxicated, my father told us he didn't believe in an afterlife....

I did begin to wonder how common these "pro-forma" folks are; how many seemingly participate without having any real belief....

Did you ask him if he believes in St. Albert of Pujols?

[rjh01]

I wonder how long before Americans stop taking religion seriously and not going to church?

[Halfcentaur]

Barring some sort of massive social shift, I'd say America will be more like Sweden in about 100 years but for the deep conservative regions, which will be much more open hopefully.
Barring the great civil religious wars of 49'.

[Orphia Nay]

I really want to know why people exaggerate their levels of church attendance. Don't they realise they're lying to themselves, and to their God?

[rjh01]

I really want to know why people exaggerate their levels of church attendance. Don't they realise they're lying to themselves, and to their God?

To conform with everyone else. Most other people say God exists. It is not very easy being in a small minority group, when the majority insist so strongly they are the only ones who are right.

[Gawdzilla]

I really want to know why people exaggerate their levels of church attendance. Don't they realise they're lying to themselves, and to their God?

They've made a deal with each other. "I'll claim to be a christian. If you don't challenge me on this I won't challenge your claim to be a christian. That way neither of us has to think about what we just said, or act in the manner that it would require if true."

Oh, and Lying for JesusTM isn't a bad thing, you're trying to convert heathens so anything is permissible, up to and including killing the ones that won't convert.

[geeter]

I agree, thanks for that!

And welcome to the forum, Geeter. :)
Spend some time in community, and get to know some of the "regulars."

Thanks slingblade! slingblade......one of my all time favorite movies!:)

[TraneWreck]

I'd written a thread about this some time ago. In only the last couple years, I found out one set of my grandparents, and my father, who had always acted like devout Catholics (including going to church regularly), actually don't believe in Christianity at all, and are agnostic. My whole life I never knew this.

[...]

I had always thought I came from an entire family full of devout Catholics. We were made to go to church, Catholic education, read the Bible, pray, say the rosary, etc etc. Now that I'm an adult and they decided they could "let me in on it," I come to find out that of my dozens of relatives, only my mother, her parents and a couple other relatives actually have any real belief in Christianity.

I think you're owed a couple hundred Sundays.

[GreyArea]

They'd raised me and my siblings and cousins Catholic because they had this sort of belief that religion was a good and necessary thing, even if they didn't actually believe it. They really buy into the whole "even if its not true, you need religion to teach morals"...

The way you describe it, it almost sounds like Christmas. They do it for the children.


There also is the fact that Catholicism is very tied to our Italian heritage.

Vedantam's article suggests that identity may be part of the issue for many Americans and Canadians.


Now that I'm an adult and they decided they could "let me in on it," I come to find out that of my dozens of relatives, only my mother, her parents and a couple other relatives actually have any real belief in Christianity.

I wonder if this pretend piety is also a way to avoid conflict within families. Maybe they thought it was better to avoid arguments and hurt feelings by going through the motions?

[Dani]

This reminds m of a story my father likes to tell. Have any of you ever heard of a "trip to abilene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox)"? I learned that story as a child long before I ever heard the term "groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)".

Thanks for the links. To some extent, it is a case of groupthink at great scale.

[hgc]

I knew it! It's great to see data to back up what I think is plainly obvious -- that the ranks of the American self-proclaimed religious are filled with fakers, posers and go-alongsters. I happen to think that a large portion of the leadership are the same, but I don't know how that data could be obtained.

[MattusMaximus]

I haven't read the link yet, but I seem to recall a detailed analysis of religious views in the U.S. a few years back indicated that many, if not most, of those who identify as Christian actually cater more towards deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism) than anything else. Very interesting...

[Malerin]

To conform with everyone else. Most other people say God exists. It is not very easy being in a small minority group, when the majority insist so strongly they are the only ones who are right.

I agree. Being a theist here is not easy.

[Fnord]

Reading through this thread confirms a suspicion I've held for many years; that people in general do not differentiate between the object of their faith (God, or whatever they believe in) and religion (how they express that belief). They may believe in their gods, their holy writings, their places of worship, their religious dogmae, or the entire nebulous concept of their own religious experience -- it doesn't matter, because it's all the same to them.

[truethat]

I had never heard of "traveling to Abilene". Discovering this type of information is exactly why I joined this forum. Thanks!

Have you heard of the Asch experiment on conformity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRh5qy09nNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sno1TpCLj6A&feature=related


And Milgram's experiment on obedience to authority

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk&feature=related

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Have you heard of the Asch experiment on conformity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRh5qy09nNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sno1TpCLj6A&feature=related


And Milgram's experiment on obedience to authority

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk&feature=related

Or even the 60s Candid Camera stunt where people faced the wrong way in a lift or all took their hats off. Very, very strange.

[Aepervius]

I agree. Being a theist here is not easy.

Wrong. Having a supernatural claim or CT of *ANY* ilk here is not easy, because people will ask for evidence, and none is ever forthcoming. Theist don't have it particularly more easy , than say, truther, homeopath, cryptozoologist, medium, telepath, or dowser.

[Gawdzilla]

I knew it! It's great to see data to back up what I think is plainly obvious -- that the ranks of the American self-proclaimed religious are filled with fakers, posers and go-alongsters. I happen to think that a large portion of the leadership are the same, but I don't know how that data could be obtained.

A modified version of the Outsiders Test of Faith would work, I think. If you are not of the xtian faith and you looked at the behaviour of the leaders of xtianity, including the most "popular" characters, would you believe they were practicing xtians?

[SonOfLaertes]

There is certainly a disconnect in America between the way people will talk about faith in small, private settings vs. a more public platform. I have actually played on this a little bit with friends that I know are ambivalent towards their faith: if I bring up inconvenient things like inconsistencies in the Bible, they instantly go into defensive mode and contradict whatever I have said; the longer such a conversation goes on the more passionate and less rational they become. I never throw our previous conversations back in their face publicly, however, unless it's with the same original group. If I can remember I will bring it up later privately and I usually get a sheepish acknowledgement with an apology.

Extending this behaviour in a more general sense I believe that polls on religious topics are heavily skewed towards a defensive position rather than a more thoughtful answer: Americans cherish our religious tradition as a function of an idealized upbringing/past more than they will care to admit in public.

[MattusMaximus]

Good point. I also think part of the issue may be the blatant politicizing of religion we've seen in the last couple of generations in the U.S.

[SonOfLaertes]

Good point. I also think part of the issue may be the blatant politicizing of religion we've seen in the last couple of generations in the U.S.

Without a doubt.

[Gawdzilla]

Good point. I also think part of the issue may be the blatant politicizing of religion we've seen in the last couple of generations in the U.S.

This is what turned me from saying "I'm not religious enough to call myself an atheist" to "activist atheism".

[Gawdzilla]

Just heard a great line on TV: "I believe in something, I just don't go to church."

I've heard that more than once here.

[Xephyr]

People pretending to be "better" than they really are...

Oh shock.
Oh surprise.

:rolleyes:

[Delvo]

People pretending to be "better" than they really are...People defining falling for transparently irrational myths as "better"...

[hgc]

A modified version of the Outsiders Test of Faith would work, I think. If you are not of the xtian faith and you looked at the behaviour of the leaders of xtianity, including the most "popular" characters, would you believe they were practicing xtians?


Well, that doesn't quite get to what I'd like to know. I already know that believers, true and fake alike, often behave in ways antithetical to their professed belief. This is not even unique to religious belief. People in all walks of life and in every imaginable context often behave in ways that violate their professed or imagined moral/ethical/behavior standards and goals, etc.

It's more a matter of finding out what portion of clergy, deacons, and other religious professionals and quasi-professionals are non-believers either in the doctrines of their church or in divinity altogether.

[Gawdzilla]

hgc, you'd have to filter for plain old lying. Good luck with that.

[hgc]

hgc, you'd have to filter for plain old lying. Good luck with that.


If the information happens to come to me by revelation, I'll pass it along. ;)

[Dani]

The article also acknowledges the fact that the USA is a more religious society than most European countries. That would explain why so many people want to appear more religious than they are.

Although I've met many Americans, I haven't lived there (only visited, and I loved the people) but I've always had the impression, mostly through the media, that they are, indeed, more religious than here. Is it hypocrisy? I don't know, but anyway I've always thought that hypocrisy is a basic ingredient in religion, especially when it coexists in a scientifically and technologically advanced society.

[Gawdzilla]

The article also acknowledges the fact that the USA is a more religious society than most European countries. That would explain why so many people want to appear more religious than they are.

Although I've met many Americans, I haven't lived there (only visited, and I loved the people) but I've always had the impression, mostly through the media, that they are, indeed, more religious than here. Is it hypocrisy? I don't know, but anyway I've always thought that hypocrisy is a basic ingredient in religion, especially when it coexists in a scientifically and technologically advanced society.

Thus the friction between religion and reality. You have people who drive cars with more computing power than existed in the whole world before 1960, and these people believe they should check in with the Great Sky Fairy before buying a lottery ticket.