Woo Woo Astronomy

[Drooper]

I didn't know wher eto post this, because it isn't scinence as we know it. It just claims to be.


I have got myself into a debate with somebody on another forum (football believe it or not) about Planet X.

The story so far goes like this:

He said: "Wow, many astronomers, including NASA, think there might be this massive planet that will bring death and destruction."

I said: "Astronomers and NASA believe quite the opposite. See my links below for evidence of this claim."

He said: "There is a lot we don't know, blah, blah.. Sumerian artifacts blah blah... ancient civilisations blah blah..."

And that pretty much sums it up to date.


But what I want to share with you is a wonderful piece of logic in support of his claim.

He starts with the following claim:

Amid the plethora of artifacts and writings, the Sumerians indicated that there are 12 planets in the solar system. That being the 9 we know of so far, the sun, the moon...and one more. There also appears evidence that the Sumerians were documenting the existence of 24 moons and satelites all up in our solar system, which there are.

(I didn't even try to find out if that is true or not, what is the point - it is clearly wrong, right?)

This led him to this conclusion:

. So if you accept the astronomical knoweldge of the Sumerians, even in 1930 we were not yet up to speed.

(based on the premise that we had not yet discovered Pluto, but the Sumerians knew there are 12 planets in our solar system..err... which there is not)

Which establishes the authority of the Sumerians to make the following claim:

Based on Sumerian texts, the estimations of the distance this supposed planet [X] travels (in it's supposed eliptical orbit) from earth are up to 6 times that of the distance Pluto is from the sun. It's size is estimated to be roughly twice the size of earth.

[my editing denoted by square brackets]


I don't know whether to :D or :hit:

[CFLarsen]

There also appears evidence that the Sumerians were documenting the existence of 24 moons and satelites all up in our solar system, which there are.

Sure, there are 24 moons "and satellites". There's far more, actually:

Earth: 1
Moon

Mars: 2
Phobos, Deimos

Jupiter: 62
Metis, Adrastea, Amalthea, Thebe, Io, Europa, Ganymede, Callisto, Themisto, Leda, Himalia, Lysithea, Elara, S/2000 J11, Iocaste, Praxidike, Harpalyke, Ananke, Isonoe, Erinome, Taygete, Chaldene, Carme, Pasiphae, S/2002 J1, Kalyke, Magaclite, Sinope, Callirrhoe, Euporie, Kale, Orthosie, Thyone, Euanthe, Hermippe, Pasithee, Eurydome, Aitne, Sponde, Autonoe, S/2003 J1, S/2003 J2, S/2003 J3, S/2003 J4, S/2003 J5, S/2003 J6, S/2003 J7, S/2003 J8, S/2003 J9, S/2003 J10, S/2003 J11, S/2003 J12, S/2003 J13, S/2003 J14, S/2003 J15, S/2003 J16, S/2003 J17, S/2003 J18, S/2003 J19, S/2003 J20, S/2003 J21, S/2003 J22

Saturn: 31
Pan, Atlas, Prometheus, Pandora, Epimetheus, Janus, Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Telesto, Calypso, Dione, Helene, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion, Iapetus, Phoebe, Ymir, Paaliaq, Siarnaq, Tarvos, Kiviuq, Ijiraq, Thrym, Skadi, Mundilfari, Erriapo, Albiorix, Suttung, S/2003 S1

Uranus: 27
Cordelia, Ophelia, Bianca, Cressida, Desdemona, Juliet, Portia, Rosalind, S/2003 U2, Belinda, 1986 U10, Puck, S/2003 U1, Miranda, S/2001 U3, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon, Caliban, Stephano, Trinculo, Sycorax, S/2003 U3, Prospero, Setebos, S/2001 U2

Neptune: 13
Naiad, Thalassa, Despina, Nereid, Galatea, Larissa, Proteus, Triton, S/2002 N1, S/2002 N2, S/2002 N3, S/2002 N4, S/2003 N1

Pluto: 1
Charon

Total moons in the solar system: 137

Estimated number of asteroids: More than 20,000 numbered.

Source: NASA (http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/index.cfm)

Tell your friend not to "accept the astronomical knowledge of the Sumerians". They were very wrong.

[Drooper]

Don't you just love starting up a topic, that gives sooo much enjoyment to other forum members, that you end up replying to youself? :D


I have formulated a reply to this guy and I would appreciate some feedback before I post it.

Bear in mind that I do not plan to completely rewrite this, I am just look for major flaws or help with the astronomy elements.

Here it is:


===========================================

Let's consider some of your points Sub.

Quote:
But in any case, let me just say that the man who first brought the idea of another large as yet undiscovered mass in our solar system was a bloke named Zecharia Sitchin. ....
....Zecharia Sitchin is not an astronomer, he is an ancient historian and author who has spent a large part of his life researching and writing on the Sumerians, which are universally believed to be the oldest 'civilisation' on earth.


It doesn't really matter what historians might learn about the knowledge of past cvilizations. If the existance of such a planet contradicts the Newtonian Laws of Motion, then it is a pretty good bet that it doesn't or never has existed.

Quote:
As with remnants from just about every single ancient civilisation ever found on earth, the Sumerians believed in 'gods' who travelled from the 'heavens', and appeared to have quite impressive astronomical knowledged.


Does this have any relavance? The "Raelians" (spelling?) of today believe the same thing. Christians believe in a man who had no living father and managed to resurect himself from the dead. Let's apply what we know about the way the world works, meaning Laws of gravity, motion, relativity etc. as our test of the likelihood of various claims.


Quote:
Amid the plethora of artifacts and writings, the Sumerians indicated that there are 12 planets in the solar system. That being the 9 we know of so far, the sun, the moon...and one more.


So by this you mean that these Sumerians, who you claim knew sooo much about astronomy, didn't know the difference between a planet and a star, or a satellite. Using this Sumerian approach to astronomy that mysterious "one more" could be one of Jupiters moons, could it not? Or maybe we could count George Bush's dog, because the definition being employed here seems pretty fungible.

And BTW, there is a debate about whether Pluto in fact qualifies as a planet in our solar system.

Quote:
Now, as with many other ancient civilisations, the first obviously strange thing about Sumerian astronomy knowledge is the fact that they apparently knew as much as we do today about our solar system.


I think we can say I dealt with this claim above. Clearly they knew a great deal less than we do today, even before we get started on Newton's Laws of Motion.

Quote:
In fact sitchin's work is very similar to Erik Von Danikken, the bloke who penned the imfamous "Chariots of the Gods" who used Sumerian texts (as well as a plethora of other ancient civilisations) to suggest that "God" was some sort of extra terrestrial space traveller.

According to them, the ancient texts could not spell it out any clearer. Sumerians, Incas, Egyptians and Mayans alike, all believed in the same premise, all had astronomical knoweldge which in some ways are on par with ours today, and all continue to be a mystery even if you just pass them off as simply being off their collective rockers


Space travel, hmmmm. Tell me, how would these space travellers deal with that thorny constraint embodied in Einsteinian Relativity. Nothing can can travel faster than the speed of light. No living thing in practise could even get remotely close to the speed of light. Given that there are no known planets within tens of thousand of light years of earth, how did these being get so far before popping their clogs.

That is the scientific problem. What about the common sense one. These beings were curious enough to spend maybe hundreds of thousands of (earth measured) years travelling to get here and they didn't stick around a few thousand more just to see how this thing turned out? Strange aliens these.

Quote:
And incidently, go ask your average astronomer if they believe in life beyond our planet.


I think the most likely response you would get is that given the vast scale of the universe, there is a good chance that life occurred elsewhere at some point in time (time being relative Subby - remember Einstein). However, an astronomer would also be likely to say that the chance of coming into contact with intelligent life from another planet is infinitesimally small. In fact zero by limit (mathematically speaking).

Quote:
In any case, my point is that it is not necessarily modern day astronomy which makes people believe in certain astrological possibilities, indeed in some cases it is in spite of it.


An understanding of modern day astronomy would make people believe that astrology is completely nonsense. Right up there with planet X and gods in space ships etc.

Quote:
I believe astronomers and scientists were burnt at the stake in past times for believeing far out theories that were later proved to be completely true. Things like believeing the earth wasn't flat for example, at times in modern day AD history which we now know ancient civilisations' knoweldge far surpassed.


Let's not confuse ouselves here Subby. Just because some valid hypotheses, or theories were rubbished in the past does not mean that every crack pot theory that is rubbished today must be correct.


Quote:
And to believe that today's astronomers, or indeed scientists know everything there is to know IMO is pretty silly and naive.


At last something on which we can agree. However, don't believe this implies that they know nothing.

Quote:
Now I'm not saying I beleive in this Planet X, but I'm also not willing to completely write off the possibility based on what some modern day astronomers will tell you.


Well, keep trying Subby. But as a piece of advice. If it comes down to the choosing what is plausible based on the known Physical Laws, versus some historian's intepretation of artifacts or ancient texts, choose the physics Subby.

Quote:
Suppose I'm just a cook.


Hallelujah!!! ;)


======================================

[iain]

He's quite right. The solution is that the Sumerians had much better eyesight than we do. I expect its all this modern medicine and GM crops that's damaged our eyesight so we can't see the new planet with the naked eye.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
.....
Total moons in the solar system: 137

Estimated number of asteroids: More than 20,000 numbered.

Source: NASA (http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/index.cfm)

Tell your friend not to "accept the astronomical knowledge of the Sumerians". They were very wrong.


Excellent. Thanks Claus.

I will throw your quote his way.:)

[Brown]

The ancients were wrong about a lot of things. And their ignorance stretched into Astronomy, Geography, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Geology, Meterorology... pretty much any scientific field you can name. The ancients got some things right, but they got a lot of things wrong.

It is true that some of the ancients had remarkable insight, and some of them conducted notable experiments or made some excellent guesses. Their insights and guesses have been supported by the development of an evidentiary basis.

Taking an assertion at face value merely because the ancients believed it is foolhardy.

An ancient belief may or may not have validity. What counts is not whether the ancients believed it, but whether the evidence available to us supports it.

[Hexxenhammer]

The Sumerians counted the Sun and Moon as planets in their numbering. Check out the BA's Planet X stuff (which you probably already have). Everything you'd ever want to know.

[DanishDynamite]

Drooper,

You might want to change this sentence...
Given that there are no known planets within tens of thousand of light years of earth,....
as it is wrong: (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0917_020917_planet.html)
This newest planet, announced today, orbits the star Tau Gruis, 100 light years from Earth, in the southern hemisphere's constellation Grus (the crane).

[Quixote]

....Zecharia Sitchin is not an astronomer, he is an ancient historian and author who has spent a large part of his life researching and writing on the Sumerians, which are universally believed to be the oldest 'civilisation' on earth.

You could side track him with the completely irrelevant data that the Sumerians are not universally believed to be the oldest 'civilisation' on earth. There was a walled city on the site of Jerico in 7000 B.C. Tell him you refuse to accept the revisionist astonomy of Johnny-come-lately's.



Amid the plethora of artifacts and writings, the Sumerians indicated that there are 12 planets in the solar system. That being the 9 we know of so far, the sun, the moon...and one more.

Who decided that the 12 "planets" known to the Sumerians consisted of the 9 planets, the sun, and the moon? Is that Sub's idra, Sitchin's idea or did the Sumerians describe the 12 "planets" well enough to make the association?

[Aoidoi]

Or maybe we could count George Bush's dog, because the definition being employed here seems pretty fungible. I'm not sure, but I think fungible isn't being used correctly here.

But overall seems a good response. The BA's stuff (already recommended) covers some of it.

[wollery]

Originally posted by Drooper
Space travel, hmmmm. Tell me, how would these space travellers deal with that thorny constraint embodied in Einsteinian Relativity. Nothing can can travel faster than the speed of light. No living thing in practise could even get remotely close to the speed of light. Given that there are no known planets within tens of thousand of light years of earth, how did these being get so far before popping their clogs.There are currently 110 extrasolar planets known, and a lot more in the pipeline, all within 100pc. A good example is GJ876, which is an M4 class star with at least two planets at a distance of 4.69pc from the Sun. Although none of the known planets are Earth-like some of these system could have Earth-like planets.

Edit to add web page for reference.
http://exoplanets.org/almanacframe.html

[CFLarsen]

There's also liquid water on Enceladus... (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53394)

[Molinaro]

Pluto has 2 more moons, for a total of 3 that we know of.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/hubble_pluto.html

[Nyarlathotep]

In fact sitchin's work is very similar to Erik Von Danikken, the bloke who penned the imfamous "Chariots of the Gods" who used Sumerian texts (as well as a plethora of other ancient civilisations) to suggest that "God" was some sort of extra terrestrial space traveller.

According to them, the ancient texts could not spell it out any clearer. Sumerians, Incas, Egyptians and Mayans alike, all believed in the same premise, all had astronomical knoweldge which in some ways are on par with ours today, and all continue to be a mystery even if you just pass them off as simply being off their collective rockers

If there is one thing in the whole wide world that suports an argument better than the serious scholarly work of Zecharia Sitchin, it's the serious scholarly work of Erich Von Daniken.:rolleyes:

Your friend is a nut, Drooper.

[JayT]

That's Woostronomy alright!

LOL

I doubt ANY ancient civilisation had great, magnificent knowledge about the universe or medicine or anything else of consequence that still remains undiscovered by modern science.

Their supposedly remarkable knowledge about planets and moons is too symbolic and nondescript to claim it was advanced beyond anything today.

I've always wondered why so many people of today seem to think that the ancients had all the answers to everything that we still seek today. That concept is utterly void of basic common sense in light of the history left behind by those 'supremely advanced' cultures.


Great minds like Erich Von Daniken, PHDuhhh, don't help the matter any. People still believe that stuff anyway. Especially the ones who do no independent cross-research on their own.





Dorothy:
Well, what would you do with a brain if you had one?


Scarecrow:
Do? Why, if I had a brain, I could -
I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain.


That's the kind of intellectuals we need today!

:)

[tsg]

I doubt ANY ancient civilisation had great, magnificent knowledge about the universe or medicine or anything else of consequence that still remains undiscovered by modern science.

It always amazes me that the "secrets to longevity" being sold today have invariably been "discovered and used for centuries" by a civilization that has long died out.

[Bronze Dog]

It always amazes me that the "secrets to longevity" being sold today have invariably been "discovered and used for centuries" by a civilization that has long died out.
(Almost) never have so few words done so much for so many. :roll:

I suspect that if the ancients were advanced, our world would be a lot more like a number of RPGs and such out there: Digging up fully-functioning ancient airships. Fighting construct guards to collect ancient power tools. That sort of thing.