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View Full Version : [Merged] God was behind Big Bang, universe no accident: Pope


triadboy
6th January 2011, 07:20 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110106/sc_nm/us_pope_bigbang

The Catholic Church no longer teaches creationism -- the belief that God created the world in six days as described in the Bible -- and says that the account in the book of Genesis is an allegory for the way God created the world.

So if Adam and Eve are allegorical - there is no original sin. Who needs Jebus?

sphenisc
6th January 2011, 07:26 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110106/sc_nm/us_pope_bigbang



So if Adam and Eve are allegorical - there is no original sin. Who needs Jebus?

"A implies B" does not imply "not A implies not B".

Cainkane1
6th January 2011, 08:15 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40945242/ns/technology_and_science-science

Catholics getting religion into science.

Agular
6th January 2011, 08:21 AM
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=196841

Where it belongs.

Checkmite
6th January 2011, 08:36 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110106/sc_nm/us_pope_bigbang



So if Adam and Eve are allegorical - there is no original sin. Who needs Jebus?

Not necessarily. Adam and Eve being an allegory for "Man's fall from grace" doesn't mean said fall is itself an allegory, nor imply that the consequences of said fall are nonexistent.

Nay_Sayer
6th January 2011, 08:39 AM
"The Catholic Church no longer teaches creationism" 2011 is starting off very well, very well indeed.

triadboy
6th January 2011, 08:43 AM
Not necessarily. Adam and Eve being an allegory for "Man's fall from grace" doesn't mean said fall is itself an allegory, nor imply that the consequences of said fall are nonexistent.

Yes, but in this light - explain the 'fall from grace'.

Moon-Spinner
6th January 2011, 08:50 AM
Another example of religion still trying to be relevant - Yawn...

In other news, it's cold today, brrr...

Dinwar
6th January 2011, 09:17 AM
I agree--without the Adam/Eve thing the whole Fall becomes vastly more difficult to justify. You're left with a general "People are bad, because they make bad choices, because they have Free Will, which is a gift from an omnicient God". It's really all they had to begin with (and getting a Catholic to make that argument is a fun way to kill an evening), but now they have really nothing hiding it.

Also, it's somewhat annoying that someone who's only qualifications are being elected bishop of Rome feels qualified to comment on cosmology. I'm married to someone who studied physics, and have read a fair number of books on the subject, and still don't feel comfortable discussing it. I've met physicsts--the full-blown Ph.D. kind, who have labs and university possitions and everything--who were equally hesitant to comment on it, and put a huge number of caveats in their statements to let me know that this wasn't their field and that if I really want to know, talk to Dr. So-and-so who's been doing some really interesting research. Why, exactly, should we CARE what the pople thinks happened back then?

TragicMonkey
6th January 2011, 09:58 AM
"The Catholic Church no longer teaches creationism" 2011 is starting off very well, very well indeed.

I was raised Catholic, and there was never any attempt to teach creationism to me. Catholics aren't big on creationism, any more than they are big on Biblical literalism--or the Bible itself, for that matter. Creationism is much more of a Protestant thing, especially the "evangelical" denominations. What the Bible says isn't that important to Catholics--they have a whole church to figure it out for them, what's the point in having a hierarchy of professionals if everybody has to read the source material and figure it out for themselves?

Bikewer
6th January 2011, 10:01 AM
The whole "garden" scenario does get a little odd if we postulate Sapiens instead of Adam & Eve.
Ooog..."Ungh. Snake talk to me today."
Goog...."You on funny mushrooms again?"

Ooog...."No. Snake talk. Say eat fruit."
Goog.... "Fruit? Me like mastodon. Plenty in cave from last kill."

And so on....

Foster Zygote
6th January 2011, 10:05 AM
And he made it all so he would have a place for us to live. That was awfully sweet of him.

triadboy
6th January 2011, 10:06 AM
Why, exactly, should we CARE what the pople thinks happened back then?

I think it's because of his hat.

Gord_in_Toronto
6th January 2011, 10:27 AM
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/107084a685eeb4b662.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17035)

This one? I like it too.

Crossbow
6th January 2011, 11:04 AM
My oh My!

First, one Pope admits that the Earth really does go around the Sun.

Then some other Pope admits that it wrong to blame Jews for the death of Jesus.

And now, the current Pope admits that science is right about something else too!

Oh well! At least the Catholic Church still has the good sense to provide those exorcism classes, so the good old days are not entirely gone.

;)

Checkmite
6th January 2011, 11:06 AM
Yes, but in this light - explain the 'fall from grace'.

Well I dunno. If Adam and Eve were allegorical, then so would their surroundings be; the "Garden" would be the state of humanity before the fall - relatively peaceful and perfect. The taking of the fruit might represent man's eventual dissatisfaction with his state and his decision to take by force of will something that otherwise naturally would not have been his. Knowledge? God was supposed to provide everything; the pride of Man in thinking he could fulfill his wants and needs by himself without relying on God would be the "fall". The alteration of his environment to suit his needs, i.e. agriculture? It's actually a fun thing to ponder, I think.

Checkmite
6th January 2011, 11:10 AM
And by the way, the Catholic Church publicly accepting the fact of the Big Bang and the scientific development of the universe is a tremendous and welcome step in the right direction that I'm personally not keen on scoffing at.

Denver
6th January 2011, 11:16 AM
And by the way, the Catholic Church publicly accepting the fact of the Big Bang and the scientific development of the universe is a tremendous and welcome step in the right direction that I'm personally not keen on scoffing at.

I don't think this is anything new: my sense of the article is that he is (re-)emphasizing that the universe was not created by chance, rather than that he is suddenly accepting the big bang theory. I can't remember them ever not accepting it. Wasn't it a Catholic priest who first proposed the idea of the big bang as the origin of the universe?

lionking
6th January 2011, 11:17 AM
I was raised Catholic, and there was never any attempt to teach creationism to me. Catholics aren't big on creationism, any more than they are big on Biblical literalism--or the Bible itself, for that matter. Creationism is much more of a Protestant thing, especially the "evangelical" denominations. What the Bible says isn't that important to Catholics--they have a whole church to figure it out for them, what's the point in having a hierarchy of professionals if everybody has to read the source material and figure it out for themselves?

Seconded. I was taught about the Big Bang in a catholic school, but never creationism.

DC
6th January 2011, 11:21 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

the Big Bang theory is from a Catholic.

Skwinty
6th January 2011, 11:21 AM
I don't think this is anything new: my sense of the article is that he is (re-)emphasizing that the universe was not created by chance, rather than that he is suddenly accepting the big bang theory. I can't remember them ever not accepting it. Wasn't it a Catholic priest who first proposed the idea of the big bang as the origin of the universe?

Yes, it was Georges Lemaitre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

TragicMonkey
6th January 2011, 11:30 AM
My mother went to Catholic school in the 1950s and was taught evolution. By a nun.

Fredrik
6th January 2011, 11:30 AM
Deleted... I misread the post I was replying to.

Denver
6th January 2011, 11:32 AM
Actually it does. :) The two statements are exactly equivalent (the former is true if and only if the latter is true). This can be verified using a truth table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table#Logical_implication).

Nope.

If it is Raining, then the Ground is Wet.

That does not equate to:

If it is not Raining, then the Ground is Not Wet.

Checkmite
6th January 2011, 11:38 AM
I don't think this is anything new: my sense of the article is that he is (re-)emphasizing that the universe was not created by chance, rather than that he is suddenly accepting the big bang theory. I can't remember them ever not accepting it. Wasn't it a Catholic priest who first proposed the idea of the big bang as the origin of the universe?

Indeed? Then I stand corrected; I was aware that evolution was taught in Catholic schools but was unaware of the Big Bang's acceptance.

Bishadi
6th January 2011, 12:20 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110106/sc_nm/us_pope_bigbang



So if Adam and Eve are allegorical - there is no original sin. Who needs Jebus?



here is the clip from the vatican

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/documents/newpdf/es36.pdf


The Academy, however, is not only the mirror of science and
research as well as a place where science deals with its problems and
insights. It also engages in questions of the institutional role of science
in society and issues of great social importance. Scientific research not
only gives expression to the strength of rationality in explaining the
world and the way in which this is done. The application of scientific
knowledge can induce changes of environmental and thus living conditions.
It is these aspects, the interrelations between scientific progress and social development, which together with insights into the epistemological
structure and the ethical implications of science play an important
role in the life and the work of the Academy. Recent meetings on
science for man and man for science (1999), on the cultural values of
science (2002), on the signs of death (2005) and on transgenic plants for
food security in the context of development (2009) testify to this persistent
engagement. Also in this respect, the Academy is unique in its structure,
in its membership, in its aim, and in its efforts which are always
directed at promoting the progress of the mathematical, physical and
natural sciences, the study of epistemological and ethical questions and
issues, the participation in the benefits of science and technology by the
greatest number of people as well as at the interaction between faith
and reason, encouraging the dialogue between science and spiritual,
cultural, philosophical and religious questions. The plenary session on
the scientific legacy of the 20th century demonstrated afresh the
strengths of these objectives and of the way the Pontifical Academy of
Sciences in its constitution and activities is realizing them.




have any of you ever written a letter to the pope?

this practically a quote from my letter..........."encouraging the dialogue between science and spiritual, cultural, philosophical and religious questions."



as far as the thread claim in the OP........ welli doubt if the pope is ready to accept that 'existence itself' (all mass, all energy, all time; trinity) is god 'itself'

but we can hope he steps up, real soon!

i mentioned in the letter, that there is only one idiot with the name of the boss (between the ears) upon the head. Rev 22:4

DC
6th January 2011, 12:34 PM
here is the clip from the vatican

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/documents/newpdf/es36.pdf





have any of you ever written a letter to the pope?

this practically a quote from my letter..........."encouraging the dialogue between science and spiritual, cultural, philosophical and religious questions."



as far as the thread claim in the OP........ welli doubt if the pope is ready to accept that 'existence itself' (all mass, all energy, all time; trinity) is god 'itself'

but we can hope he steps up, real soon!

i mentioned in the letter, that there is only one idiot with the name of the boss (between the ears) upon the head. Rev 22:4

oh now i feel sorry for the pope, you troll him in real life?

Dinwar
6th January 2011, 01:04 PM
I'm impressed. It's hard to make atheists feel sorry for the Pope. I think only Bishadi could do it.

Mashuna
6th January 2011, 01:16 PM
My mother went to Catholic school in the 1950s and was taught evolution. By a nun.

Well of course. Everyone knows that nuns evolved from penguins. It's easy to prove; next time you see a nun, push her in some water and throw fish at her.

KingMerv00
6th January 2011, 02:28 PM
Only the Pope can state what is already proven and then bask in his own "progressiveness".

Marduk
6th January 2011, 02:43 PM
News at 11,
Pope says God was behind child sex scandal
;)

Toontown
6th January 2011, 04:25 PM
I don't want to be critical of the Pope for thinking about such matters, but my sense is that the Pope hasn't gotten the gist of it.

Acausal events are not "accidental". Acausal events occur as a consequence of the fundamental nature of order.

There is no alternative to the existence of "something". The seemingly alternative "nothingness" is a contradictory human concept. A contradiction which cannot stand. Such is the nature of order. And there is absolutely no reason to assume order is not fundamental. Neither a universe nor a God could exist without a fundamental order to make said existence possible.

If the Pope believes an uncaused universe would be "accidental", then logical consistency demands that he also believe that an uncaused God would also be "accidental". But there is no reason to assume acausality is "accidental".

"Oops! I spilled my coffee!" is "accidental", requiring some kind of botched intention, such as the intention to avoid spilling the coffee, to be thwarted. An acausal quantum fluctuation is neither intentional nor unintentional. It is more fundamental than all that. It just is.

Foster Zygote
6th January 2011, 06:24 PM
here is the clip from the vatican

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/documents/newpdf/es36.pdf





have any of you ever written a letter to the pope?

this practically a quote from my letter..........."encouraging the dialogue between science and spiritual, cultural, philosophical and religious questions."



as far as the thread claim in the OP........ welli doubt if the pope is ready to accept that 'existence itself' (all mass, all energy, all time; trinity) is god 'itself'

but we can hope he steps up, real soon!

i mentioned in the letter, that there is only one idiot with the name of the boss (between the ears) upon the head. Rev 22:4
I'm sure the pope sleeps with your letter under his pillow.

Lowpro
6th January 2011, 06:41 PM
I agree--without the Adam/Eve thing the whole Fall becomes vastly more difficult to justify. You're left with a general "People are bad, because they make bad choices, because they have Free Will, which is a gift from an omnicient God". It's really all they had to begin with (and getting a Catholic to make that argument is a fun way to kill an evening), but now they have really nothing hiding it.

Also, it's somewhat annoying that someone who's only qualifications are being elected bishop of Rome feels qualified to comment on cosmology. I'm married to someone who studied physics, and have read a fair number of books on the subject, and still don't feel comfortable discussing it. I've met physicsts--the full-blown Ph.D. kind, who have labs and university possitions and everything--who were equally hesitant to comment on it, and put a huge number of caveats in their statements to let me know that this wasn't their field and that if I really want to know, talk to Dr. So-and-so who's been doing some really interesting research. Why, exactly, should we CARE what the pople thinks happened back then?

You need to stop worrying so much. Nothing limits free inquiry, and all the data you need can be attainable. There are no experts because anyone's data is free to all to use.

However it's always safe to include caveats, but don't be so hesitant. If you can't afford to do something, you'll never find out how wrong you are.

And even being wrong is a good thing.

fuelair
6th January 2011, 06:42 PM
God was behind Big Bang, universe no accident: Pope


Pope-pope-a-dope!!: Betty Boop

epix
6th January 2011, 07:35 PM
The Church seems to be always some 400 years behind. All guys who laid down the foundations of modern science had a pretty good evidence that God arranged the nature quite differently from the way it was heard from the pulpits.

Anyway... It's nice to hear that the mental faculties of the high clergy are approaching those of Copernicus, Kepler and so on.

Bikewer
7th January 2011, 05:56 AM
The Catholics do have an increasing tendency to accept the findings of modern science, but that acceptance is not without it's warts.
I listened to a couple of Jesuit astronomers speaking on NPR's To The Best Of Our Knowledge a few months ago.
Despite being well aware of modern astronomy and cosmology, they still managed to come up with the silly notion "God is love". This because.... The universe is so well-tailored for us......
I recall as well an interview with a Jesuit archaeologist who had been specifically tasked with investigating a variety of Biblical stories. His research had been uniformly negative, and his superior had complained bitterly about the fact that he was proving that all sorts of things in the Bible were not true.
However, he was allowed to continue his work.....

MattusMaximus
7th January 2011, 06:40 AM
And he made it all so he would have a place for us to live. That was awfully sweet of him.

If God made the entire universe for us, then he did a piss-poor job of it, considering as how we can survive in such a small piece of it.

triadboy
7th January 2011, 07:40 AM
If God made the entire universe for us, then he did a piss-poor job of it, considering as how we can survive in such a small piece of it.

We are located out in the boondocks of the galaxy. Perhaps we are the unibrowed, buck-toothed cousins no one likes to visit. We all got purdy mouths.