Cult Archaeology

[Checkmite]

Archaeology fascinates me, it always has. There's something exceedingly cool about it. It's also an amateur hobby of mine, and I make a point of reading every single piece of material I can find on the subject.

For many people, the word "Archaeology" evokes images of advanced ancient civilizations and unimaginable technologies, surpassing our own - of visits from aliens in antiquity, of whole vanished continents, and of evidence that (insert preferred religion here) is the One, True Faith.

These topics are referred to as "cult" Archaeology. They include such elements as "ancient astronauts", pyramidology, ley lines, Atlantis and its derivatives Mu and Lemuria, "Agartha", statues of big heads on Easter Island, and all manner of Biblicana such as Noah's ark and the use of "slave labor" to build the monuments of Egypt. Many scholars are upset at the prevalence of such thinking in our world. On the contrary, I relish the occasion when these topics are mentioned, and I enjoy the opportunity to set my friends and peers straight. Many misunderstandings stem simply from a lack of knowledge about the culture involved.

This is your opportunity to ask me anything about your favorite cult archaeology topic. If I know the answer, I'll give it to you; if I don't know the answer, then I'll go find the answer and still give it to you. I only ask that you be specific with your questions. For example, don't ask "What about the theory that aliens visited the earth in ancient times?", because I can't write a book for you. Instead, ask something like "If Atlantis didn't exist, why did two different civilizations on opposite sides of the ocean build pyramids?" or "Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?" This way, you'll save me typing time and research, and receive a better answer overall. Of course, if anyone else feels they can answer a question, they're completely welcome.

Questions, please!

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
"Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?"
This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

[Checkmite]

To start things off:

Plutarck said, in another thread,

Originally posted by Plutarck

I think far more pondersome is the ancient...Aztec, I think, drawings and stories and instructions and such of what seems to apparently be a machine with a man inside of that is controlling it.

Then again, it doesn't really seem all that "out there" that people who's key source of entertainment consisted of story telling managed to come up with the idea of machines.



Soapy Sam said that he was aware of the subject, but was under the impression that the drawing was Mayan.

My response:

Originally posted by me

The artifact in question is the sarcophagus lid of one Lord Pacal at Pelenque. He was Mayan.

http://www.delange.org/PalenqueTomb/19.jpg

Von Daniken asserted that the inscription depicts an astronaut in a spaceship, his limbs operating various inergonomically placed controls.

http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Indigenous/Student.Web.Pages/hanning.mesoamericanarchitecture/images/pacala-maya-small.jpg

Actually, it depicts the Mayan leader at the moment of his death, falling into the jaws of an underworld monster (much as the sun does each day) - which, in the Mayan fashion, implies that (like the sun) Pacal will rise again. Above him is the sky, and growing out of his chest is the World Tree, a very important part of Mayan theology. This sarcophagus was discovered in the Temple of Inscriptions, which Pacal had built during his rule at Palenque.

Typical of Von Daniken's inconsistency, you'll notice that although all other drawings and carvings Von Daniken calls astronauts are called such because of their "obvious space suits and helmets", in this picture Pacal isn't wearing anything special - in fact, he's dressed exactly the way he was really buried, lavishly decorated with jade, but elsewise bearing a lot of flesh - hardly appropriate for an astronaut. His body is also sticking out of the alleged "rocket".

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Iconoclast

This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

Naturally, the shafts in the Great Pyramid's King's and Queen's chambers are angled upwards, and so will point toward various regions of the sky. However, the cautious researcher will note that the shafts are not straight - that is, they bend within the depths of the pyramid, changing their angles to point at different regions of the sky than one standing within the chambers would assume. In addition, the sky is always moving. The tunnels, therefore, end up pointing specifically at many different stars during the course of the year. Although a few specific stars are allegedly "targeted" by the tunnels, I cannot as of yet find any reference to a specific "tunnel-targeted" star which is shown to be especially significant in ancient Egyptian record.

[Suspected Idiot]

Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Suspected Idiot
Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

Excellent question!!! Unfortunately, it will probably get the shortest answer of any question presented in this thread: I can't find a single reference to an originally atheistic civilization. The earliest atheists I could find were the ancient Greeks, among which atheist factions developed, but the idea never took hold of the people in their entirety. If you can find a reference that suggests something different...by all means, post it!

[Checkmite]

Actually Iconoclast, your question reminded me of something.

There is a theory, originally proposed by Robert Bauval and expounded by Graham Hancock, that the pyramids of Giza were intentionally organized to represent the belt of Orion, the easily recognizable star constellation. This was "proven" by superimposing the image of Orion's belt over an aerial photograph of Giza.

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/airview.gif

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/orionbelt.gif

Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)

[Denise]

Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Denise
Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).

[magimix]

One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

[Supercharts]

I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:

[Denise]

Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by magimix

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

It seems to me the two schools of thought have seperate origins. As I read von Daniken's books, I get the feeling that despite his outward sense of "wonder" at ancient works, he really holds early civilization in contempt. There are hints of racism evident in his works as well - the Africans and South Americans must've had help from beyond, yet enigmas in white Europe, such as Stonehenge, draw very little attention from von Daniken. Others of his group may not be as racist or have as much contempt for ancient peoples; they are simply uneducated as far as early culture and civilization goes, and have a hard time understanding how loinclothed cavemen could manage such feats. The solution here is education - that the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians were alot more sophisticated than what they've been led to believe.

On the other hand, the "Golden Agers" school seems to have its origins in fear of technology. Belief in Atlantis As Technological Giant became prevalent in the 50's and early 60's, when nuclear paranoia was at its prime. The idea was nurtured that Atlantis developed technology of immense power and destroyed itself either with the technology, or through lack of respect for that technology. This was a drastic morphing of the Atlantis mythos - according to Plato (our only historical point of reference for Atlantis), Atlantis was destroyed by the gods for being unfaithful and thuggish. Notice how the message is warped. Plato intended the Atlantis story to serve as a parable of how pride can be disastrous when given free reign.

In the late 60s, and ever since, the New Age movement has looked to Atlantis as a source of affirmation of their beliefs. Edgar Cayce, the "sleeping prophet", described the technology of Atlantis as metaphysical, using crystals and magic. New Agers find Past Life Regression nearly always reveals a former incarnation as an Atlantean. The still-dangerous "crystal" technology has been implicated in the disappearances of ships and planes in the "Bermuda Triangle".

Over all, it becomes obvious that the New Agers - ready to reject the God of the Establishment, yet still yearning for something to fill their "spiritual" need - have twisted it into a new story of the Fall of Man, where the human pursuit of the forbidden fruit of Knowledge leads to his exhile from his Atlantean "Eden". The story of Atlantis has been hijacked and rehijacked like a thread in the R&P forum, with barely a shadow of the original form remaining. As such, I think Atlantis has more value from a psychological or sociological standpoint than an anthropological one.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:

Uhh....that's not cult archaeology...you'd have to ask a professional about that one... :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Denise
Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

Are you kidding? That's the best part! ;)

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

I read somewhere that the stoneage village of Skara Brae actually had a rudimentary indoor plumbing system setup. Have you heard of this? I'm kinda curious how rare the setup would be considered for it's time period, if it were true.


SSR

[SRW]

Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

Also I read a theory that the ancient people in South America
my have been able to construct rudimentary hot air balloons (no records of such). Because the weaving they did was so fine it could hold hot air.

That was put forth as a possible explanation of the geometric lines in the sands.

[Ian Osborne]

I've read at The Sphynx must be at least 10,000 years old because weathering on its surface indicate it existed when Egypt was much wetter. Sounds like a woo-woo to me, but can you shed any light on this?

[Liamo]

Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

[Akots]

Originally posted by Steveo
Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.


I'd like to know about that myself, very much. Godness knows humans have never needed godo reasons to built things in their spare time, but is there ANY signifigance to them?

And do they really shoot laser rings out of their mouths, at passing spaceships...? Surely videogames haven't lied to me... :confused:

[Morwen]

Looks like a flower to me...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Stainless_Steel_Rat
I read somewhere that the stoneage village of Skara Brae actually had a rudimentary indoor plumbing system setup. Have you heard of this? I'm kinda curious how rare the setup would be considered for it's time period, if it were true.


SSR

Skara Brae is a neolithic settlement set in a mound near Olkney, Scotland. It was discovered in the 1800's when a storm ripped the grass sod off the mound, exposing a few of the buildings. The settlement consisted of a series of houses, each one with several fascinating features including shelves, dedicated beds, and hearths. The houses are built of stacked flat stones, typical of neolithic structures. As far as I'm aware (and as far as I can find), the only "plumbing" to speak of were sinks or water tanks, made of stones sealed together with clay to prevent leaking. There were no "pipes" or dedicated hot/cold water conduits.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Denise
Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

Good work Joshua.

Here's some more stuff including photos of the plaster casts made from the hollows created when the victims decomposed.

http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/frames/fcasts2.htm
http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/frames/fcontent.htm

[Sanamas]

Originally posted by Liamo
Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

A surfboard.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Steveo
Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

An unfortunate editing error on my part. The statues are there, all right - dozens of them. von Daniken asserted that the volcanic rock they were carved from was too hard for the native tools, and too heavy to be transported by the natives from the interior quarries to the seaside locations. Nevertheless, the statues, called Moai, were carved and transported by natives. Half-carved Moai in various stages of completion still litter the quarry, and some of the statues that didn't make it to their intended locations lay here and there in the grass, abandoned. The Moai were supposed to be yet another piece of evidence for von Daniken's "ancient astronauts", but in my opinion they are the most tenuous of all his "evidence".

http://www.sacredsites.com/images/final30/7.jpg


Originally posted by Steveo
Also I read a theory that the ancient people in South America
my have been able to construct rudimentary hot air balloons (no records of such). Because the weaving they did was so fine it could hold hot air.

That was put forth as a possible explanation of the geometric lines in the sands.

While the fabric was indeed fine enough to be used for a hot-air balloon, the evidence that the Nazcans actually employed them is nonexistent. In addition, it wasn't really necessary to see the figures from a great height to direct their construction - while some of them are quite large, none of them is so big that it "can't be seen from the ground". The fact that so many of the lines (the feathers and legs of the animals) are so close together and often run parallel would make construction a lot simpler than is asserted.

Again with von Daniken, the Nazca lines were claimed to be "alien landing strips" - despite the fact that a regular airplane trying to land on one would destroy the soft "runways". Even if the ground could take it...can you imagine trying to plot an approach to one of these runways?

http://www.traveladdicts.connectfree.co.uk/Peru/images/Nazca_monkey_s.jpg

[UnrepentantSinner]

I too enjoy woo woo archaeology, must come from watching all those "In Search Of" episodes when I was younger.

One of the more interesting sites that have the creduloids confounded is Nazca. How the hell could these stupid primative people possibly have created something like that without alien technology????

With nothing more than their eyes, ropes and poles.
http://www.incalink.com/nazcalines/NAZCALINES3.htm

Silly creduloids...

[UnrepentantSinner]

Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif

And damn you Joshua, I was composing my message on Nazca as you were posting yours. :cool:

This may seem like a fluff question, but... in the third Indiana Jones, movie, the beginning segment revolves around something called the "Cross of Coronado" or "Coronado's Cross"... or something. Since I'm too lazy to do a simple search, what can you tell me of this item? Did it ever exist?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Archaeology fascinates me, it always has. There's something exceedingly cool about it. It's also an amateur hobby of mine, and I make a point of reading every single piece of material I can find on the subject.

For many people, the word "Archaeology" evokes images of advanced ancient civilizations and unimaginable technologies, surpassing our own - of visits from aliens in antiquity, of whole vanished continents, and of evidence that (insert preferred religion here) is the One, True Faith.

These topics are referred to as "cult" Archaeology. They include such elements as "ancient astronauts", pyramidology, ley lines, Atlantis and its derivatives Mu and Lemuria, "Agartha", statues of big heads on Easter Island, and all manner of Biblicana such as Noah's ark and the use of "slave labor" to build the monuments of Egypt. Many scholars are upset at the prevalence of such thinking in our world. On the contrary, I relish the occasion when these topics are mentioned, and I enjoy the opportunity to set my friends and peers straight. Many misunderstandings stem simply from a lack of knowledge about the culture involved.

This is your opportunity to ask me anything about your favorite cult archaeology topic. If I know the answer, I'll give it to you; if I don't know the answer, then I'll go find the answer and still give it to you. I only ask that you be specific with your questions. For example, don't ask "What about the theory that aliens visited the earth in ancient times?", because I can't write a book for you. Instead, ask something like "If Atlantis didn't exist, why did two different civilizations on opposite sides of the ocean build pyramids?" or "Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?" This way, you'll save me typing time and research, and receive a better answer overall. Of course, if anyone else feels they can answer a question, they're completely welcome.

Questions, please!

Ever participated in a dig? I've been on two (As a definite amauteur).

[spoonhandler]

It's interesting when we discount the achievements of early civilizations simply because we can't imagine carrying out a similar task ourselves today. I've seen documentaries where people have put forward various theories on how things were constructed and seen some of the most complicated, unwieldy ideas, when in truth, ancient peoples probably had the time and the inclination to haul enormous rocks around the hard way.

I am glad to hear the pyramids/Orion's belt thing doesn't add up. I've struggled with that idea for awhile, as well as seeing the point of having shafts designed to 'look' at a particular star.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
I've read at The Sphynx must be at least 10,000 years old because weathering on its surface indicate it existed when Egypt was much wetter. Sounds like a woo-woo to me, but can you shed any light on this?

This idea, while "popular" now, was originally offered more than 25 years ago, when the "erosion" was first noticed. In the early 80's, it was determined that the excessive erosion of the interior layers of the Sphinx was due to the rather large halite and gypsum content of the base limestone, combined with certain minerals in the mortar used to secure the outer layers. The mortar apparently wicked subsurface moisture in between the outer and inner layers; the halite and (to a lesser degree) gypsum slowly and slightly dissolved, loosening some of the outer layers and making the limestone look more "weathered" and older than it actually was. Bear in mind this is from memory - I can't immediately find a web reference to the specific article, but if you want to try and find it yourself, the body which published it was the "American Research Center of Egypt" or some derivation thereof.

[UnrepentantSinner]

The neolithic sphinx is a claim made by John Anthony West. You can get his full version in "Serpent in the Sky" or you can just peruse this link.
http://hometown.aol.com/jawsphinx/pubs.html

And West's hompage.
http://www.jawest.com/

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Liamo
Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

The "official" Egytological explanation for that scene, which appears in a couple of places in the richly inscribed Temple of Hathor at Dendera, is that it's the Sun-Barge, on which the sun god Ra traversed the sky during the day. The big bulb is the sun, somewhat distorted (but the Egyptians did that alot - "cartouches" are representations of the sun, and are stretched long enough to fit whichever pharaoh's name needs to be in them).

That might sound like a cheap and somewhat unbelievable brush-off of a potentially embarassing problem - but unlike the cult Archaeologists, whose "light bulb" explanation is based on subjective interpretation, the "official" Egyptological explanation is based on reality - specifically, the actual heiroglyphic inscriptions that surround the scenes themselves.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif


Ha! The Black Hawk is down...no helicopter, no spaceship.

Egyptians did a lot of editing. That may seem counterintuitive, given that they carved messages in stone, but it's true. This was done by filling the old inscriptions with a very hard plaster, creating a "flat surface" again in which to carve the correction or alteration (Ramesses II had this done a lot...putting his own name on monuments that his predecessors had built).

In your picture, on the far right, you'll notice a bit of damage where the stone crumbled - moisture, most likely. The simplest explanation is, there was an "edit" done in this area, and some of the original fill plaster fell out afterwards when the damage occurred - and the old glyphs have "blurred" together with the not-so-old ones.

Sound implausible? Here, let this diagram help you out:


http://www.nso.lt/abydos/abydos.jpg

http://www.nso.lt/abydos/explain.gif

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Ever participated in a dig? I've been on two (As a definite amauteur).

Yes, I've volunteered for 3 different digs at Erie Indian sites in Lorain and Erie counties, offered by the Metroparks. Us volunteers get to do all the digging, and little of the field lab work...but that's fine by me, I'll let the people who know exactly what they're doing handle that stuff.

Best thing about Archaeology: it's an excellent excuse to play in the dirt, even when you've grown up. :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Estimated Prophet
This may seem like a fluff question, but... in the third Indiana Jones, movie, the beginning segment revolves around something called the "Cross of Coronado" or "Coronado's Cross"... or something. Since I'm too lazy to do a simple search, what can you tell me of this item? Did it ever exist?

The artifact was invented for the movie.

There is a "Cross of Coronado", but of a different sort - it's nearly 40 feet tall and marks the Spaniard's grave.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Yes, I've volunteered for 3 different digs at Erie Indian sites in Lorain and Erie counties, offered by the Metroparks. Us volunteers get to do all the digging, and little of the field lab work...but that's fine by me, I'll let the people who know exactly what they're doing handle that stuff.

Best thing about Archaeology: it's an excellent excuse to play in the dirt, even when you've grown up. :D

My two were:
1) Searching for / Excavating a summer kitchen of a log home in St. Louis County, beleived to have been built in the late 1700's

2) Excavating a Sugar Plantation on the island of Nevis that is thought to have existed from the mid 1700's to the early 1900's.

Enjoyed both and plan on many more!!!!

[Checkmite]

All three of the sites I worked at were apparently reused hunting camps...that is, the Eries would use the sites, then tear down, and then build new camps again next year. Lots of arrowheads, postholes, fireplaces, and the like.

Excavating a building site, like the digs you worked at, would be very cool. In fact, I know a spot that would be just perfect - not very old, early 1900's anyway - but the old foundation is there, in the middle of the woods. A big site. I thought about trying to get the attention of a local college, but I've decided to wait until I have some kind of degree before trying anything.

Who knows? In a few years, depending on how things turn out, maybe you could volunteer to work for me... ;)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
All three of the sites I worked at were apparently reused hunting camps...that is, the Eries would use the sites, then tear down, and then build new camps again next year. Lots of arrowheads, postholes, fireplaces, and the like.

Excavating a building site, like the digs you worked at, would be very cool. In fact, I know a spot that would be just perfect - not very old, early 1900's anyway - but the old foundation is there, in the middle of the woods. A big site. I thought about trying to get the attention of a local college, but I've decided to wait until I have some kind of degree before trying anything.

Who knows? In a few years, depending on how things turn out, maybe you could volunteer to work for me... ;)

Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif

And damn you Joshua, I was composing my message on Nazca as you were posting yours. :cool:

Noooo...but I have found the catfish, the cabin cruiser, and the airboat...:D

[SRW]

Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

[FutileJester]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

IIRC from my youth (I'm an Ohio native), the Ohio mounds are attributed to the Hopwell culture, circa 100-500 CE. Perhaps other cultures as well, but I don't know. See here (http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/efw.html) for an example.

I did a quick look hoping to find a picture of the Serpent Mound, which is pretty cool. Instead, I ran into this (http://greatserpentmound.org/). Eek.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi

http://www.nso.lt/abydos/explain.gif

Someone might be interested to know that strictly speaking the explanatory text is a little misleading in the "determinative for King of Upper and Lower Egypt part" since, for starters, the group of signs is not a determinative at all but a title, or to be more precise, two titles. (A determinative is a single sign that that tells the context for a group of hieroglyphs (usually for a word)).

The hieroglyph group where there are a bee and a reed over two half-circles is the title "King of Upper and Lower Egypt". The bee signifies the Upper (Southern) Egypt and the reed the Lower (North) Egypt. The grouping on the left where there is a basket over two bars is the title "Lord of the Two Lands" I'm not certain (my skill on decoding hieroglyphs is rather limited) but I think that the two slashes underneath are determinatives that denote that the two bars mean two lands in this context.

Other than those two titles, the inscription is so confused that I can't make any sense out of it.

[athon]

One of my favourite 'interpretive pictographs' is of a Mayan relief depicting what some have seen as a television, complete with a power source. I've tried finding a picture of it on the net, and failed. I'll look through my textbooks to see if I still have it.

One thing I'm curious about was an ancient 'battery' that was supposedly found in a dig dated back to around the time of Christ (give or take a few hundred years), in Parthia around modern Baghdad. It consists of a small clay canister, a copper core with an iron rod within, and space where some form of acid or vinegar could be placed as an electrolyte. Apparently it could conceivably generate a few volts of electricity.

The thing is, whilst we can remove the 'woo-woo' factor of aliens due to its simplicity, it does not seem like a huge jump to believe in its use. The arabs have long had a grip on science, being able to diagnose a woman's pregnancy using a rabbit as dated around 900 A.D.

Any thoughts?

Athon

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)

I thought that under the theory, it was irrelevant where North or South was, but that everything sort of lined up, when the Milky Way was mapped onto the Nile.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).

How did the letter writer get hold of the information contained in the first letter? It is a detailed account of travel to Pompeii and subsequent personal events in great detail about someone unable to escape. How has the detail in this letter been authenticated?

The second letter is very interesting, but because the author is the same as the first one, I am not too sure about its authenticity. (i.e. the letters may not be modern frauds, but Roman ones).

[Suspected Idiot]

I don't know about anyother ancient civilizations, but i know roman soldiers (in britain, certainly) were issued a sponge on a stick in place of toilet paper. Each person had there own and washed it after use. Probably just as hygenic as toilet paper.

(edited for spelling )

[Liamo]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:
In some places (e.g. India), some people still eat with their hands, more precisely their right hand. Their left hand is used to deal with all unclean things, such as splashing water to wash their bottom after a number two.

Liam

1- I like to know about mummies, and why there appears to be a recent surge of fake mummies.

2- Why is it dismissed that trade was going on around the world, and yet the serpent image for example appears in Mayan temples Chinese temples and Egyptian temples, how can such wide spread people build similar structures when it is said nobody traveled around?

Persia fascinates me.

I have so many questions about this I will limit it to 2.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

No, but as FutileJester pointed out, the Hopewells did. The mounds have been confined to the Ohio Valley, where the Hopewells lived. I'm afraid the Mound Builder Indians constitute an embarassing gap in my knowledge...you could probably find out about them on the net.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

I've never heard anything about it...but if it's true, think of the implications!

Bear in mind that while some theories can be classified as "far-fetched" - like the Egyptian light bulbs - this in itself does not disqualify them (although plausiblility does aid credibility) - so long as they are based on specific evidence. When specific evidence is found (for example, the surrounding hieroglyphs that describe the light bulbs as the Sun Barge), then a theory can be rejected. As of yet, I can find very little reference to the theory in question, and absolutely nothing refuting it. But, as you said, the book came out "years ago" - why hasn't anyone followed up on it?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LW

Someone might be interested to know that strictly speaking the explanatory text is a little misleading ...

snip

Other than those two titles, the inscription is so confused that I can't make any sense out of it.

Later today if I get some time, I've got a reference source that I might be able to use to help translate the rest of the text. My preliminary guess is that it's another title, or part of another title. If there's text with a Pharaoh's name and "Lord of the Two Lands" in it, there's a distinct possibility it will be accompanied by the various other pharaonic platitudes like "Beloved Child of Ra, Glorious in Battle," and etc.

[LW]

Originally posted by Drooper
How did the letter writer get hold of the information contained in the first letter? It is a detailed account of travel to Pompeii and subsequent personal events in great detail about someone unable to escape. How has the detail in this letter been authenticated?
Not all members of the party perished as they were out of the range of total destruction (see map (http://www.cotf.edu/ete/modules/volcanoes/vmtvesuvius.html)) Pliny the Elder was 56 years old at the time and, by the account, overweight so his health failed. Pliny the Younger (the author) was Elder Pliny's adopted son, so it is natural that he would have gathered as much information from survivors as possible.

I'm under the impression that no current scholar doubts the authenticity of Plinian letters.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by athon

One of my favourite 'interpretive pictographs' is of a Mayan relief depicting what some have seen as a television, complete with a power source. I've tried finding a picture of it on the net, and failed. I'll look through my textbooks to see if I still have it.

And here is where we run into our interpretation problem. The "television", like the "helicopter hieroglyph", might actually resemble a modern television. But a "power source", too? What does a Mayan "power source" look like? More likely, the interpreter saw a glyph that looked like a cluster of shapeless "junk" - much like an automobile engine would look to someone who had no idea what's what under the hood - and jumped to that unfounded conclusion. Let's go back to our Mayan "rocket"...

http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Indigenous/Student.Web.Pages/hanning.mesoamericanarchitecture/images/pacala-maya-small.jpg

The World Tree, the bird perched atop it, the Underworld Monster's jaws, and the figure of poor Lord Pacal himself are easily distinguishable. But look at the area between the monster's jaws, beneath Lord Pacal. What the hell is that thing? It looks like a V-6! Actually, it's one of the representations of the Mayan underworld god, whose name eludes me at the moment...the face aspect of it can be discerned upon inspection. But to someone who didn't know, it could easily be mistaken for some kind of "engine".

Originally posted by athon
One thing I'm curious about was an ancient 'battery' that was supposedly found in a dig dated back to around the time of Christ (give or take a few hundred years), in Parthia around modern Baghdad. It consists of a small clay canister, a copper core with an iron rod within, and space where some form of acid or vinegar could be placed as an electrolyte. Apparently it could conceivably generate a few volts of electricity.

The thing is, whilst we can remove the 'woo-woo' factor of aliens due to its simplicity, it does not seem like a huge jump to believe in its use. The arabs have long had a grip on science, being able to diagnose a woman's pregnancy using a rabbit as dated around 900 A.D.

Any thoughts?

Athon

You must be talking about this little gadget:

http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/images/babylonbattery.jpg

This object, unearthed in Parthia, and a few other similar objects are, in fact, batteries, contemporary with the Roman Empire during the Pathian period (c. 300 BC - 300 AD). They are capable of producing about one volt of electricity, and were used to apply silver electroplate to copper vases and dishes. The silver was beaten and shaped until extremely thin and pliable; the silver was applied to the copper vessel, and a shot of electricity bonded the metals together. Shocking!

The battery resides in the Baghdad Museum...or used to. Due to military operations in and around Iraq within the last dozen years, I can't assure you it even exists anymore.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Drooper


I thought that under the theory, it was irrelevant where North or South was, but that everything sort of lined up, when the Milky Way was mapped onto the Nile.

If Bauval's theory dealt exclusively with the pyramids and Nile river, and their arrangement with respect to the sky, then you would be right - it probably would be irrelevant, though I still don't see why they would've drawn the sky upside-down.

However, Bauval also asserts that the shafts in the Great Pyramid have specific targets. The northern shaft is supposed to be aimed at the star Thuban (or was aimed at Thuban - which sat directly at the celestial north pole in 2700 BC), while the southern shaft was supposed to be aimed at the Orion Belt's transit. If this is true, the the Egyptians must have purposefully tied terrestrial north on earth with celestial north in the sky, and the same for terrestrial and celestial south.

If the shaft arrangements are true, then the arrangement of Giza is not based on the sky after all. If the Giza arrangement assertion is true, then the shaft arrangements must be false. Bauval can't have it both ways - you can't assume that the Egyptians deliberately oriented a pyramid backwards in relation to the sky, but arranged the shafts of that pyramid the opposite way. Either one or both of Bauval's theories is wrong.

Since (as I stated before), the shafts bend within the pyramid and so are not "aimed" where Bauval says they are, we can reject that theory. And since the Egyptians don't seem to have ever oriented any other monuments anywhere else in Egypt with respect to the sky - forwards or backwards - the Giza arrangement theory is implausible.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
My preliminary guess is that it's another title, or part of another title. If there's text with a Pharaoh's name and "Lord of the Two Lands" in it, there's a distinct possibility it will be accompanied by the various other pharaonic platitudes like "Beloved Child of Ra, Glorious in Battle," and etc.
There's no title that I recognize in the beginning of the text (it is read from right to left, as can be seen from the way where the animals look). I think I should recognize the rightmost part of A, where there are hand, mouth, and arm on top of each other, but I don't. The part where there are nine vertical bars might be the number nine, and in this case it would probably mean that the inscription is from the ninth regal year of the king. I feel that some hieroglyphs are missing from the king's cartouche (and the large box seems strange to me) so I don't hazard a guess who it is.

[Akots]

One thing i just remembered hearing about, which will no doubt compound the evidence of my ignorance in this area... it may not be a woo-woo question, but at least it's dispelling ignorance.

How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.

Which ones are still standing, and which have been destroyed? and by what means?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LW

There's no title that I recognize in the beginning of the text (it is read from right to left, as can be seen from the way where the animals look). I think I should recognize the rightmost part of A, where there are hand, mouth, and arm on top of each other, but I don't. The part where there are nine vertical bars might be the number nine, and in this case it would probably mean that the inscription is from the ninth regal year of the king. I feel that some hieroglyphs are missing from the king's cartouche (and the large box seems strange to me) so I don't hazard a guess who it is.

New findings!!! (well, I've newly found these things on the net - they were there already)

In the diagrams I've provided above, the entire contents of the cartouche are not included (because they are considered irrelevant, apparently)...but I think they are relevant, because they exhibit the exact same kind of effect (fill plaster falling out) that resulted in the "helicopter".

The cartouche originally belonged to Seti I - and his name was replaced with that of Ramesses II (hey, am I psychic or what?). The phrase hidden behind the "helicopter" is "The one of the Two Ladies, who suppresses foreign countries." This is one of Ramesses' titularies, specifically a "Two Ladies" titulary. When Ramesses replaced Seti's name with his own, he also replaced the original text with the above words. The original text, Seti's "Two Ladies" titulary, "Who repels the Nine Bows".

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos4.gif

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos3.gif

[Drooper]

Originally posted by LW

Not all members of the party perished as they were out of the range of total destruction (see map (http://www.cotf.edu/ete/modules/volcanoes/vmtvesuvius.html)) Pliny the Elder was 56 years old at the time and, by the account, overweight so his health failed. Pliny the Younger (the author) was Elder Pliny's adopted son, so it is natural that he would have gathered as much information from survivors as possible.

I'm under the impression that no current scholar doubts the authenticity of Plinian letters.

I think I will read up on this a bit more.

It still strikes me a strange. The letter specifically states that nobody could escape seaward, due to unfavourable weather conditions. Survivors in Pompeii would have had to escape on foot or cart etc. Having seen footage of pyroclastic flows and Pompeii must have been a big one, these things result in 100% extinction of life up to tens of miles away. I can't believe anybody who was in Pompeii to witnness the events described in the letter could have had sufficient time to get out of harm's way to tell the tale.

Anyway I will go and do my research.

[LW]

Originally posted by Akots
How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.
There are actually several slightly different lists of the wonders. The one that is most often mentioned is:

1) The Great Pyramids of Giza --- still standing

2) Hanging Gardens of Babylon --- doubtful if they ever really existed at all.

3) Statue of Zeus at Olympia --- Transported to Constantinopole where it was destroyed in a fire in AD 462.

4) Temple of Artemis at Ephesus --- First burned down by Herostratus (BC 356) later fixed and finally torn down by christians (AD 401).

5) Mausoleum at Halicarnassos --- dismantled in the 15th century, stones used to build a nearby castle.

6) The Colossus of Rhodes --- fell in an earthquake in BC 226, material sold as scrap metal in AD 654.

7) The Lighthouse of Alexandria --- damaged by numerous earthquakes, finally dismantled and material used for castle building by Mamelouks in AD 1480.

[Akots]

Originally posted by LW

There are actually several slightly different lists of the wonders. The one that is most often mentioned is:

1) The Great Pyramids of Giza --- still standing

2) Hanging Gardens of Babylon --- doubtful if they ever really existed at all.

3) Statue of Zeus at Olympia --- Transported to Constantinopole where it was destroyed in a fire in AD 462.

4) Temple of Artemis at Ephesus --- First burned down by Herostratus (BC 356) later fixed and finally torn down by christians (AD 401).

5) Mausoleum at Halicarnassos --- dismantled in the 15th century, stones used to build a nearby castle.

6) The Colossus of Rhodes --- fell in an earthquake in BC 226, material sold as scrap metal in AD 654.

7) The Lighthouse of Alexandria --- damaged by numerous earthquakes, finally dismantled and material used for castle building by Mamelouks in AD 1480.

As things must come to pass, I guess. Ah well. Strange how many of them were ripepd apart for raw materials... as for the gardens, if they never existed then i don't much feel compelled to support the mythos. Modern gardens and acropoli are no doubt far more fantastic than ancient people managed... even if we had nicer tools to play with.

Which leaves only one question... how do statues burn? :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Akots
One thing i just remembered hearing about, which will no doubt compound the evidence of my ignorance in this area... it may not be a woo-woo question, but at least it's dispelling ignorance.

How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.

Which ones are still standing, and which have been destroyed? and by what means?

The list of the Seven Ancient Wonders was compiled sometime during the middle ages; the Great Pyramid at Giza is the only one among them still standing.

The others were the statue of Zeus at Olympia, the Colossus of Rhodes, the Hanging Gardens of Babyon, the Greek Temple of Artemis (at Ephesus), the Lighthouse of Alexandria, and the tomb of King Maussollos at Halicarnassus (from which we get the modern word "Mausoleum"). As far as I can remember, they all deteriorated in the elements after so much time - all of them but the Great Pyramid. Score one for the Egyptians!

(Edit...it appears I've been beaten to the punch, and, I was wrong about how some of the wonders were destroyed.)

[Drooper]

Sorry Joshua, you've not yet convinced me.

I tohught the shafts were just supposed to be ports to carry the Pahroas to their rightful place in the heavens - pointing to particular stars, not particular direction. Again North/South dhas no relevance. So it isn't a question of having it both ways. The Pyramids and the Nile mimic the milky way and Orion's belt and shafts are the routes to the relevant stars.

Also, I can't see why bendy shafts is such a problem. Is there sometihng in ancient Eqyption religion and mythology surrounding their Pahroas that means any shaft designed to be a road to the heavens needs to be straight?

If you feell inclined, you might like to fill me in a little bit more about the backgrounfd to this theory and why it seems to be so controversial. It seems perfectly rational to me and fits with ancient Egyption beliefs.

[zakur]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it? I have not read Fell's book, but I know he was involved in the translation of alleged ancient Ogam inscriptions discovered in West Virginia, the most famous being the Horse Creek Petroglyph. More here: http://members.aol.com/jlcooke/petroglyph.htm

There's also a guy who claims the Horse Creek Petroglyph was actually written in Basque, not Gaelic. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/horse.html

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Drooper
Sorry Joshua, you've not yet convinced me.

I tohught the shafts were just supposed to be ports to carry the Pahroas to their rightful place in the heavens - pointing to particular stars, not particular direction. Again North/South dhas no relevance. So it isn't a question of having it both ways. The Pyramids and the Nile mimic the milky way and Orion's belt and shafts are the routes to the relevant stars.

Also, I can't see why bendy shafts is such a problem. Is there sometihng in ancient Eqyption religion and mythology surrounding their Pahroas that means any shaft designed to be a road to the heavens needs to be straight?

If you feell inclined, you might like to fill me in a little bit more about the backgrounfd to this theory and why it seems to be so controversial. It seems perfectly rational to me and fits with ancient Egyption beliefs.

Here are the problems:


The theory about the soul of a Pharaoh needing shafts to get to heaven is unfounded - no other Pharaonic pyramid or tomb employs them, and no text supports them. As the incarnation of Ra, the sun god, a Pharaoh would have no place in the night sky anyway. In truth, no one knows exactly what the shafts were for.

The bendy shafts are a problem if one contends they point as specific stars, based on the angle of the shafts as they come off the Queen's Chamber. When the shafts bend, they point at completely different areas of the sky than they would had they travelled in a straight line. But this ultimately doesn't matter, since (as the last point indicated), Pharaohs didn't use little shafts to get to heaven.

The Belt of Orion, while noticed by the Egyptians of course, did not have any special significance in Egypt. There was no reason for the Egyptians to arrange the Giza plateau in such a manner...and if they had, surely they would've included a monument where Sirius is supposed to be, given its immediate proximity to Orion and its significance (it was the most important star in the sky to the Egyptians).

You say that you believe the theory because it is both rational and consistent with ancient Egyptian beliefs, but this is where you are wrong. It is markedly inconsistent with ancient Egyptian beliefs, which is where the biggest problem lies. If the shaft theory and the Orion theory are correct, they require the complete invention of an entirely new facet of religious or scientific belief in ancient Egypt that is not supported by any artwork or texts, anywhere in Egypt. In other words, there is a distinct lack of evidence, aside from subjective interpretation.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Pie
1- I like to know about mummies, and why there appears to be a recent surge of fake mummies.

2- Why is it dismissed that trade was going on around the world, and yet the serpent image for example appears in Mayan temples Chinese temples and Egyptian temples, how can such wide spread people build similar structures when it is said nobody traveled around?

Persia fascinates me.

I have so many questions about this I will limit it to 2.

1. I haven't heard about fake mummies being resurgent of late. Do you have a reference?

2. The most simplistic answer is covergent social evolution. Sorta the same way that both Bats and Beetles developed wings, though in toally different contexts. Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.

RE: Persia.

When I was a boy, my dad (and our family) had the priviledge of being stationed in Iran. I have been kicking myself in the ass for almost 15 years (since I discovered ancient Perisa as a teen) that I did not accompany my mother on a trip that included Persepolis. I have pics. I have her recollections. I really want to/wish I'd gone myself. I have an on-line Iranian friend who I would love to travel back to her country with and have her take me to my old house in Tehran and to see Persepolis - where Alexander destroyed the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

But I don't think it's going to happen. :(

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.


You also must consider the time periods involved. The Mayan civilization dates between 320 (CE, I should really format my dates by the new standard) and 1100 CE, when the Toltecs conquered them. The ancient Egyptian civilization (if we measure from the Early Dynastic to the beginning of the Ptolemiac) spanned thousands of years, from around 3000 BCE to about 320 BCE - but ultimately ending about 600 years before the emergence of the Maya. The two civilizations were simply not contemporary.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


You also must consider the time periods involved. The Mayan civilization dates between 320 (CE, I should really format my dates by the new standard) and 1100 CE, when the Toltecs conquered them. The ancient Egyptian civilization (if we measure from the Early Dynastic to the beginning of the Ptolemiac) spanned thousands of years, from around 3000 BCE to about 320 BCE - but ultimately ending about 600 years before the emergence of the Maya. The two civilizations were simply not contemporary.

Yes, but.. and this is a woo woo but, not a rational thinker but... The end of Ptolomaic Egypt would give a few hundred year window (on either side) for a RA type reed boat expidition bringing the culture and knowledge of Egypt to meso-America "perhaps" planting the seeds for later Mayan and subsequent Aztec pyramid building civilizations.

But then again, I've been to Chichen Itza and not to Giza so what do I know. ;)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Yes, but.. and this is a woo woo but, not a rational thinker but... The end of Ptolomaic Egypt would give a few hundred year window (on either side) for a RA type reed boat expidition bringing the culture and knowledge of Egypt to meso-America "perhaps" planting the seeds for later Mayan and subsequent Aztec pyramid building civilizations.

But then again, I've been to Chichen Itza and not to Giza so what do I know. ;)


Excellent! And although the Egyptian cobra was always paired with the Vulture (being the symbols of upper and lower Egypt), given the process of time resulting in garbling of the message, by the time it got to meso-America, the Vulture was left out, and they simply gave the serpent feathers. The product - Kukulkan. Fascinating... ;)

Hey, I should be writing these books...

[Akots]

On the subject of feathered serpents, what exactly is a Quetzalcoatl? I mean besides the prehistoric dinosaur-glider. I love the name, and i love the imagery it conjures up in one's imaginations, but i know nothing of it's signifigance, or where it originated from.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Akots
On the subject of feathered serpents, what exactly is a Quetzalcoatl? I mean besides the prehistoric dinosaur-glider. I love the name, and i love the imagery it conjures up in one's imaginations, but i know nothing of it's signifigance, or where it originated from.

Historically speaking, a Quetzalcoatl is a Toltec king, born about 950 CE or thereabouts. His father, Mixcoatl, was king until he got killed by a jealous uncle (Lion King, anyone?) who took the throne.

Quetzalcoatl didn't have that name to begin with. He was a precocious genius, apparently, and his teachers gave him the name - which means "plumed serpent" - and was synonymous with "sage". Quetzalcoatl grew up and, after a fight, pushed his evil uncle into a sacrificial fire, thereby reclaiming his rightful place as king (The ciiiircle of liiiiiife.......).

Quetzalcoatl was a "bleeding-heart liberal" who abolished human sacrifice (after bumping off his uncle), declaring only snakes, birds, and plants approved for the ritual. This seriously pissed off the priests - and this is where the real Quetzalcoatl starts becoming intertwined with legend and myth. The priests hired a Bad god whose name started with a T (sorry, can't help you more than that). With the help of some other Bad gods, he got Quetzalcoatl very drunk, and used a beautiful girl to seduce him. His hangover the next morning was nothing compared to the shock of his broken vow of celibacy, and he ran away in shame, wandering around for some 20 or 30 years until he got to the Gulf of Mexico.

Promising some witnesses that "I shall return", Quetzalcoatl sailed off like General MacArthur across the sea, landing amongst the Mayas in the Yucatan peninsula, who called him Kukulkan, "feathered serpent". They loved him, but for some reason he couldn't take life anymore and went out in a blaze of glory, torching himself Buddhist monk-style (sorry). Suffering from moderate to acute death, Quetzalcoatl was unable to make his glorious return to Mexico.

The Toltecs never knew this, even after conquering the Maya; so when they became the Aztecs over time, the story of Quetzalcoatl promising to return was passed on. Like Joe DiMaggio, Quetzalcoatl was so popular that after he'd been dead (or missing, in this case) awhile, he became a god. Somehow, though, Quetzalcoatl also became white - and when about 200 Spanish Conquistadores invaded, they were able to destroy an empire of thousands of warriors, because the Aztecs were afraid to touch the white visitors, who may have been embodiments or relatives of Quetzalcoatl. Religion never hurt anyone...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Quetzalcoatl was a "bleeding-heart liberal" who abolished human sacrifice (after bumping off his uncle), declaring only snakes, birds, and plants approved for the ritual. This seriously pissed off the priests - and this is where the real Quetzalcoatl starts becoming intertwined with legend and myth. The priests hired a Bad god whose name started with a T (sorry, can't help you more than that). With the help of some other Bad gods, he got Quetzalcoatl very drunk, and used a beautiful girl to seduce him. His hangover the next morning was nothing compared to the shock of his broken vow of celibacy, and he ran away in shame, wandering around for some 20 or 30 years until he got to the Gulf of Mexico.


To prevent any misunderstandings, I should perhaps be a bit more forthcoming. Although the legend says priests in league with evil gods conspired to bring about the end of Quetzalcoatl's reign, there's obviously been some rewriting of history done here. Quetzalcoatl may have gotten drunk and had his tryst with the lovely girl, but it's unlikely the gods and priests had a hand in it.

I believe Quetzalcoatl did get drunk and violate his vow, but there's no need for gods or scheming priests to explain the events. He was a man who happened to be weak where most me are, and got caught - it was simply the fact that he was king, and not supposed to be weak, that was the crux of the problem (QuetzalClinton?).

Quetzalcoatl imposed his 20 or 30-year exhile on himself; with such freely expressed shame, it's doubtful that he ordered the spread of the "evil priests and gods" story. Rather, after his departure and the raising of his life to the status of legend, his followers themselves seem to have concocted the story. For all his great deeds, Quetzalcoatl was human after all - and the people may have simply forgiven his slip. He was loved even after he left, and for centuries afterward - and eventually morphed into a divinely-guided megaman who could do no wrong in the peoples' eyes, so they made an excuse for him.

As Kukulkan, he had a rather nice pyramid dedicated to him. UnrepentantSinner saw it at Chichen Itza...

http://www.crystalinks.com/chichensides.jpg

[UnrepentantSinner]

http://www.geocities.com/horemheb19/

You can see me standing next to Kukulcan's head. Kukulcan, the only deity you can wear to a fancy dress party. :)

I have a really good Kukulcan pyramid photo, but I don't have on any readily availible servers. Might try and upload it later.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused: I have heard that in some cultures (not necessarily ancient ones), one always wipes with the left hand, and eats with the right. This (I have heard) is one of the reasons why in some cultures, extending your left hand to shake hands is a grave insult.

[RSLancastr]

Mormons have a great interest in finding signs of great pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas, due to one of their holy books (the Book of Mormon, I think) giving "historical accounts" of said civilizations.

Has anything been found that they have latched onto?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
I have heard that in some cultures (not necessarily ancient ones), one always wipes with the left hand, and eats with the right. This (I have heard) is one of the reasons why in some cultures, extending your left hand to shake hands is a grave insult.

I lived in one of those cultures. In Iran, at least in the 1970s, it was still common for them to wipe with their left hand and then wash it off.

You can imagine the look of horror my neighbors gave me when I hungrily dug into my lunch... with my left hand.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
In the diagrams I've provided above, the entire contents of the cartouche are not included (because they are considered irrelevant, apparently)...but I think they are relevant, because they exhibit the exact same kind of effect (fill plaster falling out) that resulted in the "helicopter".

Yup. The mysterious-looking box with the jackal-headed standard is actually combination of two hieroglyphs: wsr that occurs in Ramsesses's regal name (Usermaatresetepenre - try to say that out loud) and mn that occurs in Seti's name (Menmaatre). It may be interesting to note that even though in both names the 're' syllable occurs last, it is written first in the cartouche since it was, after all, name of the sun god.

BTW, above I confused the identities of Upper and Lower Egypt, as the bee was for Lower and reed for Upper part of the land.

In any case, the names of Egyptian pharaohs are rather interesting. They had five royal names: one that signified his aspect as Horus, one for his role in protection of "Two Ladies", or the Vulture Goddes of Upper Egypt and the Cobra Goddes of Lower Egypt, one "Golden Horus" name whose significance is, as far as I know, unknown. The two most important names were his birth name ("Son of Ra" or "duck and sun" name) that was given to him at birth and the regal name ("Bee and reed" name) that he took when he ascended to the throne and that was his "official" name. Most modern sources use birth names for the pharaohs, or more precicely, Greek renditions of them.

Another interesting trivia tidbit is that it is highly anachronist to use the title "pharaoh" for Khufu, the builder of the Great Pyramid. The literal translation of the title is "Great House" and it originally ment only the palace of the king. Gradually its meaning shifted to "Court of the King". The first inscriptions that use 'pharaoh' as a synonum for the king date from Akhenaten's reign, almost 1200 years after Khufu's death. (And 50 years before the reign of Seti).

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

Barry Fell... Now there is a perfect example of a guy who could find evidence for his "theories" in a box of Corn Flakes.

Every "mystery" he ever investigated turned out to perfectly support the conclusion he had drawn before he even put his boots on to go check them out (i.e. The Kensington Stone, the Los Lunas Inscription, "America's Stonehenge", etc...)

He was an expert marksman when it came to drawing the bullseyes around the bullet holes.

btw... here is a pretty good cult archaeology debunking site:

http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
Mormons have a great interest in finding signs of great pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas, due to one of their holy books (the Book of Mormon, I think) giving "historical accounts" of said civilizations.

Has anything been found that they have latched onto?

The Book of Mormon was a series of gold plates given to one Joseph Smith (the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) by an angel in 1829. The plates were inscribed in an indecipherable language, and the angel also gave Smith a set of super secret spy spectacles with which he could read the text in English. The plates were buried in a nearby wood, and Smith, using not the spectacles but a special "seeing stone" that he often used during magic tricks (he was formerly a magician), began dictating to a note-taker the English translation of the Book of Mormon. The dictation took 60 days, allegedly. However, Smith had actually begun dictating the book a year earlier; but those 116 pages were lost when the secretary took the pages home to show his wife. Dictation then stopped until the following year, when he began again - not only "translating" the text with his seeing stone, but receiving "revelations" as well, which he included in the text. One of them featured a warning from God of the possibility that the previous pages would be found, and that


"...they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. And, behold, they will publish this, and Satan will harden the hearts of the people to stir them up to anger against you, that they will not believe my words."

This is an obvious attempt to cover himself in case the original pages were found, and shown not to be the same as the new ones, which would indeed prove that Smith had pretended to translate.

Many Mormon sites feature a "challenge" to those who contest the authenticity of the Book of Mormon; the challenge involves composing a similar epic involving ancient Tibet (because you probably know nothing about ancient Tibet, just like Smith knew nothing about ancient America), and requires that the challenger be "23 years old" and "have had only 3 years of formal education, having spent most of his life in backwoods farming communities". The epic must also be "proven true", as the Book of Mormon has. This, coupled with the other conditions of the "challenge", makes it obvious that the challenge is rhetorical.

But the fact of the matter is, the Book of Mormon has failed, time after time, the very challenge its advocates offer in support of it; no archaeological evidence has been found, anywhere, that substantiates anything in the Book of Mormon. It has apparently been "proven true" by virtue of the fact that all its believers say it is true - and after all, the Book of Mormon itself says it is true. Of course, the Book of Mormon also says the Red Sea is in Galilee, instead of near Egypt.

[Checkmite]

(clearing throat)

...any other questions, guys? I was having fun...

[atomicmutant]

Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is there any evidence that cave women looked like Racquel Welch in "One Million Years BC"????

[atomicmutant]

Scrutinizer...dagnabit....I was gonna say something about that in my post, being a huge fan of that movie. I'm glad you asked about that. May be a topic all by itself..:)

I don't think so, nor do I think there is any actual evidence to support the existence of the Valley of Gwangi, or that cowboys ever roped a dinosaur....

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.

Well I really must apologize, AtomicMutant, but that question is out of my perview.

Archaeology's playing field extends from the present back until the dawn of civilization - that is, the era in which men began building permanent settlements, learned domestication/agricultural/industrial methods, and so forth. The earliest such settlements we can find date back to possibly around 7000 BC at the earliest. Anything involving humans before that becomes the property of Biological Anthropology. The age of the dinosaurs ended, on the other hand, around 66 million years ago, and is the property of Palaeontology. Even if we use the earliest humanoid apes as our starting point (around 200,000 years ago, apparently), there's still quite a time gap to cover - and I wouldn't be the one to cover it. You'd have to talk to a palaeontologist. :(

However, I've heard it through the grapevine that the Paluxy River "manprints" are actually the footprints of a three-toed bipedal dinosaur.

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...

I understood your intention - that's why I apologized upon not being able to fully answer it. The Paluxy prints are nearly always offered in favor of religion - by Christian Creationists, who insist that the world must only be a few thousand years old, and by Hindu Fundamentalists, who insist that man must be millions of years old. As far as I know, the Paluxy prints are those of a three-toed dinosaur, whose rather plainly-shaped foot suggested a sandal print. But the "manprints", as they are called, have bottom contour (unlike a sandal print), though that contour is very not primate-like. The prints are too big to have been made by any human whose remains have been found to date.

As for contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas, allow me to lay out my argument against such contact.

Firstly, there is the time issue. What we know as "Ancient Egypt" was the time between the Predynastic Period (c. 3000 BCE) - the "time before the kings" when the first nomadic tribes began settling along the Nile - to the end of the New Kingdom (1070 BCE), after which the last of the Pharaohs were replaced with foreign rulers and eventually the Romans. The earliest American civilization we know of - the Toltecs - came to be around 350 BCE. If the ancient Egyptians had visited the Americas, they would've been lucky to find another human there.

Secondly, there is the logistical issue. The ancient Egyptians became more than adept at navigating the Nile River; however, they simply did not do the Open Sea. When navigating in the Mediterranean was absolutely necessary, the ships literally hugged the coast, because they weren't built for oceanic travel. No Egyptian seacraft could've withstanded a trans-Atlantic voyage, for certain.

Thirdly, and most obviously (in my opinion, at least), there is no record of any such contact. Not only that, but there are no cultural artifacts - instances where Egyptian mythology or symbology rubbed off on the natives. The only thing pre-columbian civilization seems to share with Egypt is sun worship - something that practically every ancient civilization exhibited. Some assert that the precolumbians got the idea of pyramid building from the Egyptians - but this doesn't stand, because the precolumbians (1) didn't build true pyramids like the Egyptians did, and (2) used their pyramids for completely different purposes than the Egyptians.

As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...

[atomicmutant]

As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...

I am really looking forward to this. I'm tired of made up mysteries like Atlantis, I'm sure the real ones are much more compelling....
Get some sleep..see ya tomorrow, and thanks!

[atomicmutant]

Oh, yeah, the other part of the contact between Egypt and the Americas had to do with coffee beans that weren't from that part of the world being found in a tomb. This is way second hand info, I'm just trying to relay it.....so I can't back that up....but anyway..there it is.

[LW]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?
Well, this one is not overtly strange but it was certainly a very surprising find: The Wolf Cave (http://www.nba.fi/ARCHAEOL/RESEARCH/susieng.htm) near Kristiinankaupunki, Finland. It is a cave that contains stone age artifacts. The surprising thing is that they predate the last ice age, being roughly 100000 years old. As the whole Finland was under a 3km thick glacier during the last glaciation period, it was believed that all traces of prior habitation would have been vanished during it.

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


1. I haven't heard about fake mummies being resurgent of late. Do you have a reference?

2. The most simplistic answer is covergent social evolution. Sorta the same way that both Bats and Beetles developed wings, though in toally different contexts. Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.

RE: Persia.

When I was a boy, my dad (and our family) had the priviledge of being stationed in Iran. I have been kicking myself in the ass for almost 15 years (since I discovered ancient Peri's as a teen) that I did not accompany my mother on a trip that included Persepolis. I have pics. I have her recollections. I really want to/wish I'd gone myself. I have an on-line Iranian friend who I would love to travel back to her country with and have her take me to my old house in Tehran and to see Persepolis - where Alexander destroyed the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

But I don't think it's going to happen. :(

1)It was on documentary I was watching, what started out as a rare mummy form Persia turning up on the black-market in India(?)turned into a horrific murder manhunt. At the end it was still being investigated as moe were still being discovered. I look through the paper stack and see if I can find where and what it is was on for you.

2) Do you have any more info for this.

Persia shame on you and I bet you did kick your ass on missing out.

Last part???

[Checkmite]

The following is a list of my favorite archaeological "mysteries", along with short descriptions of what they entail. Though it isn't my direct intention, this list may prove that you don't need thousand-year-old astronauts, electric lighting in ancient tombs, and the like, to have a fascinating puzzle on your hands. Let's dive in, shall we?

The "People of the Sea"
Let's start in Egypt - good a place as any. Around 1130 BCE, the entire eastern Mediterranean Sea was beseiged by a band of merry marauders called the "People of the Sea". They sacked towns and villages along the coasts of Greece and Italy, Turkey and Canaan, leaving havoc and destruction in their wake - in fact, these people completely obliterated the Hittites - something even Ramesses the Great wasn't able to do. Then they set their sights on the big fish, Egypt. They attacked on and off, in an almost Viking fashion, for around 50 years or so. Interestingly, they made a point of attacking governmental and administrative buildings and structures, rather than houses and cultural centers.

The People of the Sea were defeated decisively by Ramesses III in a grand battle in the Nile Delta - think D-Day, except the invaders lost. But aside from these facts, we still don't know for certain who the People of the Sea were, or where they came from. Captions at the Temple of Karnak suggest that they were a collaboration of many traditional Egyptian enemies such as the Tyrrhenians and the Philistines - some of whom were enduring famine and thus may have had a motive - but the nature of their alliance, where they were based, and how these starving peoples could have funded their incredible war machine, are true mysteries. Other accounts suggest they may have been deserters from a hitherto unknown army. The beginnings of their attacks coincide with the first fall of Troy (not to be mistaken with the grand Trojan War), so there may be a link there as well. But so far, this is a most murky chapter in our understanding of history.

Roanoke
The island of Roanoke, near Cape Hatteras, was the site of several doomed English colonies established by Sir Walter Raleigh in the late 1500's. The first was established in 1585. It was militaristic in nature; the colonists' task was to build a fort there. This settlement was visited by Francis Drake in 1586, who found the colonists at war with the Roanoke indians that inhabited the island; after much deliberation, that colony decided to return to England. Richard Grenville, Raleigh's cousin, visited the island a week or so after it had been abandoned, and became distressed at finding it empty. He left 15 men and enough supplies to keep them for two years on Roanoke, to "hold the land" until he could return from England with a new settlement expedition.

That expedition was formed by Raleigh in 1587, and consisted of 150 men, women, and children. They arrived on the island expecting to find the 15 men Grenville had left behind; instead, they found one's skeleton, and no trace of the rest. The friendly Croatoan indians insisted that the Roanoke indians had killed the 15 men, so the colonists fell upon the only Roanoke indian town on the island - only to find it abandoned, and that they had accidentally killed several Croatoan indians who were scavenging for abandoned supplies there. Oops. Nevertheless, the Croatoan indians forgave them.

So the colony was established on August 13th, 1587. On August 27th John White, the colony's governor, left Roanoke at the behest of the colonists, leaving his daughter and her family behind. Given the penchant for colonies to disappear on this island, White gave the colony specific instructions as to what signs to leave should the colony have to move or encounter trouble. He was to return with supplies from England - but due to a war with Spain, no supply ship could be sent. Governor White lobbied hard, but it was 1590 before a supply expedition could be mounted.

The supply fleet reached Roanoke Island on August 12th, 1590 - to find the colony completely deserted. Houses had been torn down, their wood used to make a crude palisade fort. Rusted iron lay strewn about, indicating that the colony had been deserted for quite a while. At the top of a hill, the searchers found the letters "CRO" carved into a tree, and on one of the palisade posts, the word "CROATOAN was carved. No where in evidence were the signs White declared should be used in case of trouble. There were no skeletons...no traces at all.

White's expedition was unable to search Croatoan Island because of stormy weather; they resolved to sail to the West Indies to resupply, then return to Croatoan Island in an attempt to solve the mystery. But in transit, the fleet was blown off course and ended up at the Azores eventually. Unable to finance another trip, White resigned himself to the fact that he would never see his lost family again. There would be other attempts to search for the lost colony, all in vain. When Jamestown was settled in 1607, the colonists there asked the local indians if they had any idea what had happened to the Roanoke colony, but they didn't. No trace of that colony has been found to this day.

Well, the typing has taken longer than I thought it would. These two articles must suffice for now; after work I'll add to the list...meanwhile, you're free to dig up whatever you can regarding these two subjects.

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, love those two mysteries. I had heard of the Roanoke one, actually....I remember seeing the story, just as you recount it, illustrated in, I believe, a Ripley's Believe it or Not comic book when I was young. It actually creeped me out, and your mention of the tree carving brought back the shivers....disappeared.....without a trace....ooooooOOOOOOO!

What's amazing is that the actual story as you've relayed it is exactly what I first read about, they didn't really embellish it at all.

I had never heard of the people of the sea before...good one.

Any others you have, I'm really enjoying this, feel free to continue, and thank you!

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....

[UnrepentantSinner]

Interesting article on Roanoke:
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1101web/roanoke.html
It discusses the reports of sightings of whites in the interior.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....

I must apologize...this has been one busy week! I've only had time to drop in now and then for a quick look-see...I think I should be able to post some more stuff within the next day or two.

[RichardR]

Joshua:

I believe that Sitchin was supposed to have translated the ancient Sumerian texts, and (according to him), they show that humans are descended from aliens. It’s connected with this Planet X / 12th planet stuff.

I presume that archeology has its respected peer-reviewed journals that would publish the details of any such translations. I had a couple of questions about that:


What are the titles of such peer reviewed journals?

Did Sitchin or anybody else publish details of any translations that support the ancient astronaut theories? If so where, and what was the feedback from the archeological community?

(Or did he just publish his books?)

Has any scholar of Sumerian culture ever published any comments about Sitchin’s theories?

What other views are there on these old texts, and what is the best places to read about them?

[Bluegill]

I have a question. Last year I heard a story on NPR about a discovery off the coast of Cuba. In thousands of feet of water, researchers using sensing equipment (sonar, I guess) picked up very intriguing shapes on the ocean floor. It looked for all the world like cut stone blocks arranged in regular (and apparently non-natural) patterns.

Quite a few scientists who had seen the data said that it really looked like underwater ruins of some sort, but it was miles off the coast and in deep water. There were two theories:

1) The features were natural, just unusual

2) the features were man-made from thousands of years ago, but some unknown geological activity had sunk them.

The scientists interviewed seemed keenly interested in researching it before the "cult archaeologists" could start messing around. But the depth of the water makes is hard to get to--I think there was going to be some kind of research expedition this year.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about, and have they heard any more news on it?

[Checkmite]

RichardR and Bluegill:

I've only just seen your last posts, so sorry I couldn't respond before now. Bluegill, you can expect a post regarding your question tonight; RichardR, I'll try to get to yours tonight but it may take longer, as your questions require a little bit of digging.

Cheers,

Josh K

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).
A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by magimix
One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

I have a question about the Library at Alexanderia. It supposed held vast amounts of wrtitings that held knowledge from across the known world. I don't mean knowledge of aliens or Atlantis (I don't beleive in that) but knowlwdge in science, mathmatics, medicine, philosophy, poetry, etc. As it was expaline dto me by a friend the caretakers of the Library would meet people visiting Alexanderia and copy everything that they had in written form.b It's destruction meant ther loss of tremendous amount of knowledge. Is this true?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Bluegill
I have a question. Last year I heard a story on NPR about a discovery off the coast of Cuba. In thousands of feet of water, researchers using sensing equipment (sonar, I guess) picked up very intriguing shapes on the ocean floor. It looked for all the world like cut stone blocks arranged in regular (and apparently non-natural) patterns.

Quite a few scientists who had seen the data said that it really looked like underwater ruins of some sort, but it was miles off the coast and in deep water. There were two theories:

1) The features were natural, just unusual

2) the features were man-made from thousands of years ago, but some unknown geological activity had sunk them.

The scientists interviewed seemed keenly interested in researching it before the "cult archaeologists" could start messing around. But the depth of the water makes is hard to get to--I think there was going to be some kind of research expedition this year.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about, and have they heard any more news on it?

Well, first of all, you needn't worry too much about the cult archaeologists getting their first; the site is in Cuban waters, and even the scientists who discovered the thing couldn't follow through on a trip planned for July because of permit problems.

There's a whispered rumor that National Geographic will be taking a trip to Cuba next year, and is somewhat interested in the site. Until then, nobody knows anything. This is still a very fresh find, so be patient - I'm as eager to hear about it as you are!

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LCBOY

A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.

The second city you dimly remember may be Misenum. At this point, I'm unaware of any other city.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LCBOY


I have a question about the Library at Alexanderia. It supposed held vast amounts of wrtitings that held knowledge from across the known world. I don't mean knowledge of aliens or Atlantis (I don't beleive in that) but knowlwdge in science, mathmatics, medicine, philosophy, poetry, etc. As it was expaline dto me by a friend the caretakers of the Library would meet people visiting Alexanderia and copy everything that they had in written form.b It's destruction meant ther loss of tremendous amount of knowledge. Is this true?

The destruction of the library and most everything in it was a tremendous loss. Most of the loss was in the form of historical accounts - scrolls and papyri, that could help us understand more about ancient cultures. I'm not so sure a lot of scientific knowledge was lost, however - it seems unlikely to me that the only copies of this or that modern (for the time) scientific text would be placed in the library. Of course, since it's all gone, there's really no telling what was in fact lost.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by RichardR
Joshua:

I believe that Sitchin was supposed to have translated the ancient Sumerian texts, and (according to him), they show that humans are descended from aliens. It’s connected with this Planet X / 12th planet stuff.

For those unfamiliar...Sitchin wrote a book called The 12th Planet, in which he describes his interpretations of some Sumerian texts which talk about the creation of the world. He says that references to various gods and mythic places are in fact references to planets - 12 in all, with the Sun counting as the first, and earth's moon counting as a fifth planet.

According to Sitchin, the texts describe a large celestial event in which Nibiru, a sacred city often referred to, was actually a wandering planet that got caught by the sun's gravity. Spiraling in toward the sun, Nibiru passed Neptune, whose own gravity altered Nibiru's course and caused a bulge to appear in the planet's side. Upon passing Uranus, this bulge was ripped open, pieces of it becoming Uranus' moons. Nibiru then passed a planet between Saturn and Uranus, but it was a small one - Nibiru's gravity flung it out beyond Neptune, where it became Pluto. Nibiru continued on, passing Saturn and Jupiter without incident. It came to one special planet between Jupiter and Mars. Nibiru's gravity seriously damaged this planet in passing. Nibiru continued its voyage around the sun and back out into space, returning a couple thousand years later to rip the planet apart completely, with half of it becoming the asteroid belt, and the other half being thrown past Mars and becoming Earth. Nibiru's own moon got caught by this new planet and became its Moon. Nibiru was scheduled to return earlier this month...but of course it didn't, because this interplanetary ping-pong match didn't really happen.

Originally posted by RichardR
I presume that archeology has its respected peer-reviewed journals that would publish the details of any such translations. I had a couple of questions about that:

What are the titles of such peer reviewed journals?

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you. Several European universities have their own Sumerology departments; any translations would probably be published in those universities' bulletins.

Originally posted by RichardR
Did Sitchin or anybody else publish details of any translations that support the ancient astronaut theories? If so where, and what was the feedback from the archeological community?

(Or did he just publish his books?)

If you read the texts Sitchin used, you'd be hardpressed to find any planetary references. I can't find any mention anywhere of any orthodox Sumerologists trying to answer his theories - I believe they all decided it was best not to try after Sitchin announced