Cult Archaeology

[Checkmite]

Archaeology fascinates me, it always has. There's something exceedingly cool about it. It's also an amateur hobby of mine, and I make a point of reading every single piece of material I can find on the subject.

For many people, the word "Archaeology" evokes images of advanced ancient civilizations and unimaginable technologies, surpassing our own - of visits from aliens in antiquity, of whole vanished continents, and of evidence that (insert preferred religion here) is the One, True Faith.

These topics are referred to as "cult" Archaeology. They include such elements as "ancient astronauts", pyramidology, ley lines, Atlantis and its derivatives Mu and Lemuria, "Agartha", statues of big heads on Easter Island, and all manner of Biblicana such as Noah's ark and the use of "slave labor" to build the monuments of Egypt. Many scholars are upset at the prevalence of such thinking in our world. On the contrary, I relish the occasion when these topics are mentioned, and I enjoy the opportunity to set my friends and peers straight. Many misunderstandings stem simply from a lack of knowledge about the culture involved.

This is your opportunity to ask me anything about your favorite cult archaeology topic. If I know the answer, I'll give it to you; if I don't know the answer, then I'll go find the answer and still give it to you. I only ask that you be specific with your questions. For example, don't ask "What about the theory that aliens visited the earth in ancient times?", because I can't write a book for you. Instead, ask something like "If Atlantis didn't exist, why did two different civilizations on opposite sides of the ocean build pyramids?" or "Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?" This way, you'll save me typing time and research, and receive a better answer overall. Of course, if anyone else feels they can answer a question, they're completely welcome.

Questions, please!

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
"Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?"
This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

[Checkmite]

To start things off:

Plutarck said, in another thread,

Originally posted by Plutarck

I think far more pondersome is the ancient...Aztec, I think, drawings and stories and instructions and such of what seems to apparently be a machine with a man inside of that is controlling it.

Then again, it doesn't really seem all that "out there" that people who's key source of entertainment consisted of story telling managed to come up with the idea of machines.



Soapy Sam said that he was aware of the subject, but was under the impression that the drawing was Mayan.

My response:

Originally posted by me

The artifact in question is the sarcophagus lid of one Lord Pacal at Pelenque. He was Mayan.

http://www.delange.org/PalenqueTomb/19.jpg

Von Daniken asserted that the inscription depicts an astronaut in a spaceship, his limbs operating various inergonomically placed controls.

http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Indigenous/Student.Web.Pages/hanning.mesoamericanarchitecture/images/pacala-maya-small.jpg

Actually, it depicts the Mayan leader at the moment of his death, falling into the jaws of an underworld monster (much as the sun does each day) - which, in the Mayan fashion, implies that (like the sun) Pacal will rise again. Above him is the sky, and growing out of his chest is the World Tree, a very important part of Mayan theology. This sarcophagus was discovered in the Temple of Inscriptions, which Pacal had built during his rule at Palenque.

Typical of Von Daniken's inconsistency, you'll notice that although all other drawings and carvings Von Daniken calls astronauts are called such because of their "obvious space suits and helmets", in this picture Pacal isn't wearing anything special - in fact, he's dressed exactly the way he was really buried, lavishly decorated with jade, but elsewise bearing a lot of flesh - hardly appropriate for an astronaut. His body is also sticking out of the alleged "rocket".

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Iconoclast

This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

Naturally, the shafts in the Great Pyramid's King's and Queen's chambers are angled upwards, and so will point toward various regions of the sky. However, the cautious researcher will note that the shafts are not straight - that is, they bend within the depths of the pyramid, changing their angles to point at different regions of the sky than one standing within the chambers would assume. In addition, the sky is always moving. The tunnels, therefore, end up pointing specifically at many different stars during the course of the year. Although a few specific stars are allegedly "targeted" by the tunnels, I cannot as of yet find any reference to a specific "tunnel-targeted" star which is shown to be especially significant in ancient Egyptian record.

[Suspected Idiot]

Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Suspected Idiot
Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

Excellent question!!! Unfortunately, it will probably get the shortest answer of any question presented in this thread: I can't find a single reference to an originally atheistic civilization. The earliest atheists I could find were the ancient Greeks, among which atheist factions developed, but the idea never took hold of the people in their entirety. If you can find a reference that suggests something different...by all means, post it!

[Checkmite]

Actually Iconoclast, your question reminded me of something.

There is a theory, originally proposed by Robert Bauval and expounded by Graham Hancock, that the pyramids of Giza were intentionally organized to represent the belt of Orion, the easily recognizable star constellation. This was "proven" by superimposing the image of Orion's belt over an aerial photograph of Giza.

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/airview.gif

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/orionbelt.gif

Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)

[Denise]

Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Denise
Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).

[magimix]

One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

[Supercharts]

I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:

[Denise]

Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by magimix

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

It seems to me the two schools of thought have seperate origins. As I read von Daniken's books, I get the feeling that despite his outward sense of "wonder" at ancient works, he really holds early civilization in contempt. There are hints of racism evident in his works as well - the Africans and South Americans must've had help from beyond, yet enigmas in white Europe, such as Stonehenge, draw very little attention from von Daniken. Others of his group may not be as racist or have as much contempt for ancient peoples; they are simply uneducated as far as early culture and civilization goes, and have a hard time understanding how loinclothed cavemen could manage such feats. The solution here is education - that the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians were alot more sophisticated than what they've been led to believe.

On the other hand, the "Golden Agers" school seems to have its origins in fear of technology. Belief in Atlantis As Technological Giant became prevalent in the 50's and early 60's, when nuclear paranoia was at its prime. The idea was nurtured that Atlantis developed technology of immense power and destroyed itself either with the technology, or through lack of respect for that technology. This was a drastic morphing of the Atlantis mythos - according to Plato (our only historical point of reference for Atlantis), Atlantis was destroyed by the gods for being unfaithful and thuggish. Notice how the message is warped. Plato intended the Atlantis story to serve as a parable of how pride can be disastrous when given free reign.

In the late 60s, and ever since, the New Age movement has looked to Atlantis as a source of affirmation of their beliefs. Edgar Cayce, the "sleeping prophet", described the technology of Atlantis as metaphysical, using crystals and magic. New Agers find Past Life Regression nearly always reveals a former incarnation as an Atlantean. The still-dangerous "crystal" technology has been implicated in the disappearances of ships and planes in the "Bermuda Triangle".

Over all, it becomes obvious that the New Agers - ready to reject the God of the Establishment, yet still yearning for something to fill their "spiritual" need - have twisted it into a new story of the Fall of Man, where the human pursuit of the forbidden fruit of Knowledge leads to his exhile from his Atlantean "Eden". The story of Atlantis has been hijacked and rehijacked like a thread in the R&P forum, with barely a shadow of the original form remaining. As such, I think Atlantis has more value from a psychological or sociological standpoint than an anthropological one.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:

Uhh....that's not cult archaeology...you'd have to ask a professional about that one... :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Denise
Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

Are you kidding? That's the best part! ;)

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

I read somewhere that the stoneage village of Skara Brae actually had a rudimentary indoor plumbing system setup. Have you heard of this? I'm kinda curious how rare the setup would be considered for it's time period, if it were true.


SSR

[SRW]

Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

Also I read a theory that the ancient people in South America
my have been able to construct rudimentary hot air balloons (no records of such). Because the weaving they did was so fine it could hold hot air.

That was put forth as a possible explanation of the geometric lines in the sands.

[Ian Osborne]

I've read at The Sphynx must be at least 10,000 years old because weathering on its surface indicate it existed when Egypt was much wetter. Sounds like a woo-woo to me, but can you shed any light on this?

[Liamo]

Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

[Akots]

Originally posted by Steveo
Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.


I'd like to know about that myself, very much. Godness knows humans have never needed godo reasons to built things in their spare time, but is there ANY signifigance to them?

And do they really shoot laser rings out of their mouths, at passing spaceships...? Surely videogames haven't lied to me... :confused:

[Morwen]

Looks like a flower to me...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Stainless_Steel_Rat
I read somewhere that the stoneage village of Skara Brae actually had a rudimentary indoor plumbing system setup. Have you heard of this? I'm kinda curious how rare the setup would be considered for it's time period, if it were true.


SSR

Skara Brae is a neolithic settlement set in a mound near Olkney, Scotland. It was discovered in the 1800's when a storm ripped the grass sod off the mound, exposing a few of the buildings. The settlement consisted of a series of houses, each one with several fascinating features including shelves, dedicated beds, and hearths. The houses are built of stacked flat stones, typical of neolithic structures. As far as I'm aware (and as far as I can find), the only "plumbing" to speak of were sinks or water tanks, made of stones sealed together with clay to prevent leaking. There were no "pipes" or dedicated hot/cold water conduits.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Denise
Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

Good work Joshua.

Here's some more stuff including photos of the plaster casts made from the hollows created when the victims decomposed.

http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/frames/fcasts2.htm
http://www.pompeii.co.uk/cd/frames/fcontent.htm

[Sanamas]

Originally posted by Liamo
Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

A surfboard.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Steveo
Are you saying that this is not true?
----------------------------------------------
Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

----------------------------------------------

I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

An unfortunate editing error on my part. The statues are there, all right - dozens of them. von Daniken asserted that the volcanic rock they were carved from was too hard for the native tools, and too heavy to be transported by the natives from the interior quarries to the seaside locations. Nevertheless, the statues, called Moai, were carved and transported by natives. Half-carved Moai in various stages of completion still litter the quarry, and some of the statues that didn't make it to their intended locations lay here and there in the grass, abandoned. The Moai were supposed to be yet another piece of evidence for von Daniken's "ancient astronauts", but in my opinion they are the most tenuous of all his "evidence".

http://www.sacredsites.com/images/final30/7.jpg


Originally posted by Steveo
Also I read a theory that the ancient people in South America
my have been able to construct rudimentary hot air balloons (no records of such). Because the weaving they did was so fine it could hold hot air.

That was put forth as a possible explanation of the geometric lines in the sands.

While the fabric was indeed fine enough to be used for a hot-air balloon, the evidence that the Nazcans actually employed them is nonexistent. In addition, it wasn't really necessary to see the figures from a great height to direct their construction - while some of them are quite large, none of them is so big that it "can't be seen from the ground". The fact that so many of the lines (the feathers and legs of the animals) are so close together and often run parallel would make construction a lot simpler than is asserted.

Again with von Daniken, the Nazca lines were claimed to be "alien landing strips" - despite the fact that a regular airplane trying to land on one would destroy the soft "runways". Even if the ground could take it...can you imagine trying to plot an approach to one of these runways?

http://www.traveladdicts.connectfree.co.uk/Peru/images/Nazca_monkey_s.jpg

[UnrepentantSinner]

I too enjoy woo woo archaeology, must come from watching all those "In Search Of" episodes when I was younger.

One of the more interesting sites that have the creduloids confounded is Nazca. How the hell could these stupid primative people possibly have created something like that without alien technology????

With nothing more than their eyes, ropes and poles.
http://www.incalink.com/nazcalines/NAZCALINES3.htm

Silly creduloids...

[UnrepentantSinner]

Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif

And damn you Joshua, I was composing my message on Nazca as you were posting yours. :cool:

This may seem like a fluff question, but... in the third Indiana Jones, movie, the beginning segment revolves around something called the "Cross of Coronado" or "Coronado's Cross"... or something. Since I'm too lazy to do a simple search, what can you tell me of this item? Did it ever exist?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Archaeology fascinates me, it always has. There's something exceedingly cool about it. It's also an amateur hobby of mine, and I make a point of reading every single piece of material I can find on the subject.

For many people, the word "Archaeology" evokes images of advanced ancient civilizations and unimaginable technologies, surpassing our own - of visits from aliens in antiquity, of whole vanished continents, and of evidence that (insert preferred religion here) is the One, True Faith.

These topics are referred to as "cult" Archaeology. They include such elements as "ancient astronauts", pyramidology, ley lines, Atlantis and its derivatives Mu and Lemuria, "Agartha", statues of big heads on Easter Island, and all manner of Biblicana such as Noah's ark and the use of "slave labor" to build the monuments of Egypt. Many scholars are upset at the prevalence of such thinking in our world. On the contrary, I relish the occasion when these topics are mentioned, and I enjoy the opportunity to set my friends and peers straight. Many misunderstandings stem simply from a lack of knowledge about the culture involved.

This is your opportunity to ask me anything about your favorite cult archaeology topic. If I know the answer, I'll give it to you; if I don't know the answer, then I'll go find the answer and still give it to you. I only ask that you be specific with your questions. For example, don't ask "What about the theory that aliens visited the earth in ancient times?", because I can't write a book for you. Instead, ask something like "If Atlantis didn't exist, why did two different civilizations on opposite sides of the ocean build pyramids?" or "Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?" This way, you'll save me typing time and research, and receive a better answer overall. Of course, if anyone else feels they can answer a question, they're completely welcome.

Questions, please!

Ever participated in a dig? I've been on two (As a definite amauteur).

[spoonhandler]

It's interesting when we discount the achievements of early civilizations simply because we can't imagine carrying out a similar task ourselves today. I've seen documentaries where people have put forward various theories on how things were constructed and seen some of the most complicated, unwieldy ideas, when in truth, ancient peoples probably had the time and the inclination to haul enormous rocks around the hard way.

I am glad to hear the pyramids/Orion's belt thing doesn't add up. I've struggled with that idea for awhile, as well as seeing the point of having shafts designed to 'look' at a particular star.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
I've read at The Sphynx must be at least 10,000 years old because weathering on its surface indicate it existed when Egypt was much wetter. Sounds like a woo-woo to me, but can you shed any light on this?

This idea, while "popular" now, was originally offered more than 25 years ago, when the "erosion" was first noticed. In the early 80's, it was determined that the excessive erosion of the interior layers of the Sphinx was due to the rather large halite and gypsum content of the base limestone, combined with certain minerals in the mortar used to secure the outer layers. The mortar apparently wicked subsurface moisture in between the outer and inner layers; the halite and (to a lesser degree) gypsum slowly and slightly dissolved, loosening some of the outer layers and making the limestone look more "weathered" and older than it actually was. Bear in mind this is from memory - I can't immediately find a web reference to the specific article, but if you want to try and find it yourself, the body which published it was the "American Research Center of Egypt" or some derivation thereof.

[UnrepentantSinner]

The neolithic sphinx is a claim made by John Anthony West. You can get his full version in "Serpent in the Sky" or you can just peruse this link.
http://hometown.aol.com/jawsphinx/pubs.html

And West's hompage.
http://www.jawest.com/

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Liamo
Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

The "official" Egytological explanation for that scene, which appears in a couple of places in the richly inscribed Temple of Hathor at Dendera, is that it's the Sun-Barge, on which the sun god Ra traversed the sky during the day. The big bulb is the sun, somewhat distorted (but the Egyptians did that alot - "cartouches" are representations of the sun, and are stretched long enough to fit whichever pharaoh's name needs to be in them).

That might sound like a cheap and somewhat unbelievable brush-off of a potentially embarassing problem - but unlike the cult Archaeologists, whose "light bulb" explanation is based on subjective interpretation, the "official" Egyptological explanation is based on reality - specifically, the actual heiroglyphic inscriptions that surround the scenes themselves.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif


Ha! The Black Hawk is down...no helicopter, no spaceship.

Egyptians did a lot of editing. That may seem counterintuitive, given that they carved messages in stone, but it's true. This was done by filling the old inscriptions with a very hard plaster, creating a "flat surface" again in which to carve the correction or alteration (Ramesses II had this done a lot...putting his own name on monuments that his predecessors had built).

In your picture, on the far right, you'll notice a bit of damage where the stone crumbled - moisture, most likely. The simplest explanation is, there was an "edit" done in this area, and some of the original fill plaster fell out afterwards when the damage occurred - and the old glyphs have "blurred" together with the not-so-old ones.

Sound implausible? Here, let this diagram help you out:


http://www.nso.lt/abydos/abydos.jpg

http://www.nso.lt/abydos/explain.gif

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Ever participated in a dig? I've been on two (As a definite amauteur).

Yes, I've volunteered for 3 different digs at Erie Indian sites in Lorain and Erie counties, offered by the Metroparks. Us volunteers get to do all the digging, and little of the field lab work...but that's fine by me, I'll let the people who know exactly what they're doing handle that stuff.

Best thing about Archaeology: it's an excellent excuse to play in the dirt, even when you've grown up. :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Estimated Prophet
This may seem like a fluff question, but... in the third Indiana Jones, movie, the beginning segment revolves around something called the "Cross of Coronado" or "Coronado's Cross"... or something. Since I'm too lazy to do a simple search, what can you tell me of this item? Did it ever exist?

The artifact was invented for the movie.

There is a "Cross of Coronado", but of a different sort - it's nearly 40 feet tall and marks the Spaniard's grave.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Yes, I've volunteered for 3 different digs at Erie Indian sites in Lorain and Erie counties, offered by the Metroparks. Us volunteers get to do all the digging, and little of the field lab work...but that's fine by me, I'll let the people who know exactly what they're doing handle that stuff.

Best thing about Archaeology: it's an excellent excuse to play in the dirt, even when you've grown up. :D

My two were:
1) Searching for / Excavating a summer kitchen of a log home in St. Louis County, beleived to have been built in the late 1700's

2) Excavating a Sugar Plantation on the island of Nevis that is thought to have existed from the mid 1700's to the early 1900's.

Enjoyed both and plan on many more!!!!

[Checkmite]

All three of the sites I worked at were apparently reused hunting camps...that is, the Eries would use the sites, then tear down, and then build new camps again next year. Lots of arrowheads, postholes, fireplaces, and the like.

Excavating a building site, like the digs you worked at, would be very cool. In fact, I know a spot that would be just perfect - not very old, early 1900's anyway - but the old foundation is there, in the middle of the woods. A big site. I thought about trying to get the attention of a local college, but I've decided to wait until I have some kind of degree before trying anything.

Who knows? In a few years, depending on how things turn out, maybe you could volunteer to work for me... ;)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
All three of the sites I worked at were apparently reused hunting camps...that is, the Eries would use the sites, then tear down, and then build new camps again next year. Lots of arrowheads, postholes, fireplaces, and the like.

Excavating a building site, like the digs you worked at, would be very cool. In fact, I know a spot that would be just perfect - not very old, early 1900's anyway - but the old foundation is there, in the middle of the woods. A big site. I thought about trying to get the attention of a local college, but I've decided to wait until I have some kind of degree before trying anything.

Who knows? In a few years, depending on how things turn out, maybe you could volunteer to work for me... ;)

Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Can anyone find the ancient Apache and Spaceship on this piece of Egyptian temple wall?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Image6.gif

And damn you Joshua, I was composing my message on Nazca as you were posting yours. :cool:

Noooo...but I have found the catfish, the cabin cruiser, and the airboat...:D

[SRW]

Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

[FutileJester]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

IIRC from my youth (I'm an Ohio native), the Ohio mounds are attributed to the Hopwell culture, circa 100-500 CE. Perhaps other cultures as well, but I don't know. See here (http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/efw.html) for an example.

I did a quick look hoping to find a picture of the Serpent Mound, which is pretty cool. Instead, I ran into this (http://greatserpentmound.org/). Eek.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi

http://www.nso.lt/abydos/explain.gif

Someone might be interested to know that strictly speaking the explanatory text is a little misleading in the "determinative for King of Upper and Lower Egypt part" since, for starters, the group of signs is not a determinative at all but a title, or to be more precise, two titles. (A determinative is a single sign that that tells the context for a group of hieroglyphs (usually for a word)).

The hieroglyph group where there are a bee and a reed over two half-circles is the title "King of Upper and Lower Egypt". The bee signifies the Upper (Southern) Egypt and the reed the Lower (North) Egypt. The grouping on the left where there is a basket over two bars is the title "Lord of the Two Lands" I'm not certain (my skill on decoding hieroglyphs is rather limited) but I think that the two slashes underneath are determinatives that denote that the two bars mean two lands in this context.

Other than those two titles, the inscription is so confused that I can't make any sense out of it.

[athon]

One of my favourite 'interpretive pictographs' is of a Mayan relief depicting what some have seen as a television, complete with a power source. I've tried finding a picture of it on the net, and failed. I'll look through my textbooks to see if I still have it.

One thing I'm curious about was an ancient 'battery' that was supposedly found in a dig dated back to around the time of Christ (give or take a few hundred years), in Parthia around modern Baghdad. It consists of a small clay canister, a copper core with an iron rod within, and space where some form of acid or vinegar could be placed as an electrolyte. Apparently it could conceivably generate a few volts of electricity.

The thing is, whilst we can remove the 'woo-woo' factor of aliens due to its simplicity, it does not seem like a huge jump to believe in its use. The arabs have long had a grip on science, being able to diagnose a woman's pregnancy using a rabbit as dated around 900 A.D.

Any thoughts?

Athon

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)

I thought that under the theory, it was irrelevant where North or South was, but that everything sort of lined up, when the Milky Way was mapped onto the Nile.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).

How did the letter writer get hold of the information contained in the first letter? It is a detailed account of travel to Pompeii and subsequent personal events in great detail about someone unable to escape. How has the detail in this letter been authenticated?

The second letter is very interesting, but because the author is the same as the first one, I am not too sure about its authenticity. (i.e. the letters may not be modern frauds, but Roman ones).

[Suspected Idiot]

I don't know about anyother ancient civilizations, but i know roman soldiers (in britain, certainly) were issued a sponge on a stick in place of toilet paper. Each person had there own and washed it after use. Probably just as hygenic as toilet paper.

(edited for spelling )

[Liamo]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:
In some places (e.g. India), some people still eat with their hands, more precisely their right hand. Their left hand is used to deal with all unclean things, such as splashing water to wash their bottom after a number two.

Liam

1- I like to know about mummies, and why there appears to be a recent surge of fake mummies.

2- Why is it dismissed that trade was going on around the world, and yet the serpent image for example appears in Mayan temples Chinese temples and Egyptian temples, how can such wide spread people build similar structures when it is said nobody traveled around?

Persia fascinates me.

I have so many questions about this I will limit it to 2.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Did the Eries build mounds??? (No, they built a lake! Rimshot)

I know there are some Mississippian mounds in Ohio.

No, but as FutileJester pointed out, the Hopewells did. The mounds have been confined to the Ohio Valley, where the Hopewells lived. I'm afraid the Mound Builder Indians constitute an embarassing gap in my knowledge...you could probably find out about them on the net.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

I've never heard anything about it...but if it's true, think of the implications!

Bear in mind that while some theories can be classified as "far-fetched" - like the Egyptian light bulbs - this in itself does not disqualify them (although plausiblility does aid credibility) - so long as they are based on specific evidence. When specific evidence is found (for example, the surrounding hieroglyphs that describe the light bulbs as the Sun Barge), then a theory can be rejected. As of yet, I can find very little reference to the theory in question, and absolutely nothing refuting it. But, as you said, the book came out "years ago" - why hasn't anyone followed up on it?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LW

Someone might be interested to know that strictly speaking the explanatory text is a little misleading ...

snip

Other than those two titles, the inscription is so confused that I can't make any sense out of it.

Later today if I get some time, I've got a reference source that I might be able to use to help translate the rest of the text. My preliminary guess is that it's another title, or part of another title. If there's text with a Pharaoh's name and "Lord of the Two Lands" in it, there's a distinct possibility it will be accompanied by the various other pharaonic platitudes like "Beloved Child of Ra, Glorious in Battle," and etc.

[LW]

Originally posted by Drooper
How did the letter writer get hold of the information contained in the first letter? It is a detailed account of travel to Pompeii and subsequent personal events in great detail about someone unable to escape. How has the detail in this letter been authenticated?
Not all members of the party perished as they were out of the range of total destruction (see map (http://www.cotf.edu/ete/modules/volcanoes/vmtvesuvius.html)) Pliny the Elder was 56 years old at the time and, by the account, overweight so his health failed. Pliny the Younger (the author) was Elder Pliny's adopted son, so it is natural that he would have gathered as much information from survivors as possible.

I'm under the impression that no current scholar doubts the authenticity of Plinian letters.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by athon

One of my favourite 'interpretive pictographs' is of a Mayan relief depicting what some have seen as a television, complete with a power source. I've tried finding a picture of it on the net, and failed. I'll look through my textbooks to see if I still have it.

And here is where we run into our interpretation problem. The "television", like the "helicopter hieroglyph", might actually resemble a modern television. But a "power source", too? What does a Mayan "power source" look like? More likely, the interpreter saw a glyph that looked like a cluster of shapeless "junk" - much like an automobile engine would look to someone who had no idea what's what under the hood - and jumped to that unfounded conclusion. Let's go back to our Mayan "rocket"...

http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Indigenous/Student.Web.Pages/hanning.mesoamericanarchitecture/images/pacala-maya-small.jpg

The World Tree, the bird perched atop it, the Underworld Monster's jaws, and the figure of poor Lord Pacal himself are easily distinguishable. But look at the area between the monster's jaws, beneath Lord Pacal. What the hell is that thing? It looks like a V-6! Actually, it's one of the representations of the Mayan underworld god, whose name eludes me at the moment...the face aspect of it can be discerned upon inspection. But to someone who didn't know, it could easily be mistaken for some kind of "engine".

Originally posted by athon
One thing I'm curious about was an ancient 'battery' that was supposedly found in a dig dated back to around the time of Christ (give or take a few hundred years), in Parthia around modern Baghdad. It consists of a small clay canister, a copper core with an iron rod within, and space where some form of acid or vinegar could be placed as an electrolyte. Apparently it could conceivably generate a few volts of electricity.

The thing is, whilst we can remove the 'woo-woo' factor of aliens due to its simplicity, it does not seem like a huge jump to believe in its use. The arabs have long had a grip on science, being able to diagnose a woman's pregnancy using a rabbit as dated around 900 A.D.

Any thoughts?

Athon

You must be talking about this little gadget:

http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/images/babylonbattery.jpg

This object, unearthed in Parthia, and a few other similar objects are, in fact, batteries, contemporary with the Roman Empire during the Pathian period (c. 300 BC - 300 AD). They are capable of producing about one volt of electricity, and were used to apply silver electroplate to copper vases and dishes. The silver was beaten and shaped until extremely thin and pliable; the silver was applied to the copper vessel, and a shot of electricity bonded the metals together. Shocking!

The battery resides in the Baghdad Museum...or used to. Due to military operations in and around Iraq within the last dozen years, I can't assure you it even exists anymore.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Drooper


I thought that under the theory, it was irrelevant where North or South was, but that everything sort of lined up, when the Milky Way was mapped onto the Nile.

If Bauval's theory dealt exclusively with the pyramids and Nile river, and their arrangement with respect to the sky, then you would be right - it probably would be irrelevant, though I still don't see why they would've drawn the sky upside-down.

However, Bauval also asserts that the shafts in the Great Pyramid have specific targets. The northern shaft is supposed to be aimed at the star Thuban (or was aimed at Thuban - which sat directly at the celestial north pole in 2700 BC), while the southern shaft was supposed to be aimed at the Orion Belt's transit. If this is true, the the Egyptians must have purposefully tied terrestrial north on earth with celestial north in the sky, and the same for terrestrial and celestial south.

If the shaft arrangements are true, then the arrangement of Giza is not based on the sky after all. If the Giza arrangement assertion is true, then the shaft arrangements must be false. Bauval can't have it both ways - you can't assume that the Egyptians deliberately oriented a pyramid backwards in relation to the sky, but arranged the shafts of that pyramid the opposite way. Either one or both of Bauval's theories is wrong.

Since (as I stated before), the shafts bend within the pyramid and so are not "aimed" where Bauval says they are, we can reject that theory. And since the Egyptians don't seem to have ever oriented any other monuments anywhere else in Egypt with respect to the sky - forwards or backwards - the Giza arrangement theory is implausible.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
My preliminary guess is that it's another title, or part of another title. If there's text with a Pharaoh's name and "Lord of the Two Lands" in it, there's a distinct possibility it will be accompanied by the various other pharaonic platitudes like "Beloved Child of Ra, Glorious in Battle," and etc.
There's no title that I recognize in the beginning of the text (it is read from right to left, as can be seen from the way where the animals look). I think I should recognize the rightmost part of A, where there are hand, mouth, and arm on top of each other, but I don't. The part where there are nine vertical bars might be the number nine, and in this case it would probably mean that the inscription is from the ninth regal year of the king. I feel that some hieroglyphs are missing from the king's cartouche (and the large box seems strange to me) so I don't hazard a guess who it is.

[Akots]

One thing i just remembered hearing about, which will no doubt compound the evidence of my ignorance in this area... it may not be a woo-woo question, but at least it's dispelling ignorance.

How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.

Which ones are still standing, and which have been destroyed? and by what means?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LW

There's no title that I recognize in the beginning of the text (it is read from right to left, as can be seen from the way where the animals look). I think I should recognize the rightmost part of A, where there are hand, mouth, and arm on top of each other, but I don't. The part where there are nine vertical bars might be the number nine, and in this case it would probably mean that the inscription is from the ninth regal year of the king. I feel that some hieroglyphs are missing from the king's cartouche (and the large box seems strange to me) so I don't hazard a guess who it is.

New findings!!! (well, I've newly found these things on the net - they were there already)

In the diagrams I've provided above, the entire contents of the cartouche are not included (because they are considered irrelevant, apparently)...but I think they are relevant, because they exhibit the exact same kind of effect (fill plaster falling out) that resulted in the "helicopter".

The cartouche originally belonged to Seti I - and his name was replaced with that of Ramesses II (hey, am I psychic or what?). The phrase hidden behind the "helicopter" is "The one of the Two Ladies, who suppresses foreign countries." This is one of Ramesses' titularies, specifically a "Two Ladies" titulary. When Ramesses replaced Seti's name with his own, he also replaced the original text with the above words. The original text, Seti's "Two Ladies" titulary, "Who repels the Nine Bows".

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos4.gif

http://www.catchpenny.org/images/abydos3.gif

[Drooper]

Originally posted by LW

Not all members of the party perished as they were out of the range of total destruction (see map (http://www.cotf.edu/ete/modules/volcanoes/vmtvesuvius.html)) Pliny the Elder was 56 years old at the time and, by the account, overweight so his health failed. Pliny the Younger (the author) was Elder Pliny's adopted son, so it is natural that he would have gathered as much information from survivors as possible.

I'm under the impression that no current scholar doubts the authenticity of Plinian letters.

I think I will read up on this a bit more.

It still strikes me a strange. The letter specifically states that nobody could escape seaward, due to unfavourable weather conditions. Survivors in Pompeii would have had to escape on foot or cart etc. Having seen footage of pyroclastic flows and Pompeii must have been a big one, these things result in 100% extinction of life up to tens of miles away. I can't believe anybody who was in Pompeii to witnness the events described in the letter could have had sufficient time to get out of harm's way to tell the tale.

Anyway I will go and do my research.

[LW]

Originally posted by Akots
How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.
There are actually several slightly different lists of the wonders. The one that is most often mentioned is:

1) The Great Pyramids of Giza --- still standing

2) Hanging Gardens of Babylon --- doubtful if they ever really existed at all.

3) Statue of Zeus at Olympia --- Transported to Constantinopole where it was destroyed in a fire in AD 462.

4) Temple of Artemis at Ephesus --- First burned down by Herostratus (BC 356) later fixed and finally torn down by christians (AD 401).

5) Mausoleum at Halicarnassos --- dismantled in the 15th century, stones used to build a nearby castle.

6) The Colossus of Rhodes --- fell in an earthquake in BC 226, material sold as scrap metal in AD 654.

7) The Lighthouse of Alexandria --- damaged by numerous earthquakes, finally dismantled and material used for castle building by Mamelouks in AD 1480.

[Akots]

Originally posted by LW

There are actually several slightly different lists of the wonders. The one that is most often mentioned is:

1) The Great Pyramids of Giza --- still standing

2) Hanging Gardens of Babylon --- doubtful if they ever really existed at all.

3) Statue of Zeus at Olympia --- Transported to Constantinopole where it was destroyed in a fire in AD 462.

4) Temple of Artemis at Ephesus --- First burned down by Herostratus (BC 356) later fixed and finally torn down by christians (AD 401).

5) Mausoleum at Halicarnassos --- dismantled in the 15th century, stones used to build a nearby castle.

6) The Colossus of Rhodes --- fell in an earthquake in BC 226, material sold as scrap metal in AD 654.

7) The Lighthouse of Alexandria --- damaged by numerous earthquakes, finally dismantled and material used for castle building by Mamelouks in AD 1480.

As things must come to pass, I guess. Ah well. Strange how many of them were ripepd apart for raw materials... as for the gardens, if they never existed then i don't much feel compelled to support the mythos. Modern gardens and acropoli are no doubt far more fantastic than ancient people managed... even if we had nicer tools to play with.

Which leaves only one question... how do statues burn? :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Akots
One thing i just remembered hearing about, which will no doubt compound the evidence of my ignorance in this area... it may not be a woo-woo question, but at least it's dispelling ignorance.

How many of the "7 ancient wonders of the world" are left standing? I remember hearing once that only one remained intact; the great pyramids. As little as I know about them, the idea that the other 6 were destroyed saddens me greatly.

Which ones are still standing, and which have been destroyed? and by what means?

The list of the Seven Ancient Wonders was compiled sometime during the middle ages; the Great Pyramid at Giza is the only one among them still standing.

The others were the statue of Zeus at Olympia, the Colossus of Rhodes, the Hanging Gardens of Babyon, the Greek Temple of Artemis (at Ephesus), the Lighthouse of Alexandria, and the tomb of King Maussollos at Halicarnassus (from which we get the modern word "Mausoleum"). As far as I can remember, they all deteriorated in the elements after so much time - all of them but the Great Pyramid. Score one for the Egyptians!

(Edit...it appears I've been beaten to the punch, and, I was wrong about how some of the wonders were destroyed.)

[Drooper]

Sorry Joshua, you've not yet convinced me.

I tohught the shafts were just supposed to be ports to carry the Pahroas to their rightful place in the heavens - pointing to particular stars, not particular direction. Again North/South dhas no relevance. So it isn't a question of having it both ways. The Pyramids and the Nile mimic the milky way and Orion's belt and shafts are the routes to the relevant stars.

Also, I can't see why bendy shafts is such a problem. Is there sometihng in ancient Eqyption religion and mythology surrounding their Pahroas that means any shaft designed to be a road to the heavens needs to be straight?

If you feell inclined, you might like to fill me in a little bit more about the backgrounfd to this theory and why it seems to be so controversial. It seems perfectly rational to me and fits with ancient Egyption beliefs.

[zakur]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it? I have not read Fell's book, but I know he was involved in the translation of alleged ancient Ogam inscriptions discovered in West Virginia, the most famous being the Horse Creek Petroglyph. More here: http://members.aol.com/jlcooke/petroglyph.htm

There's also a guy who claims the Horse Creek Petroglyph was actually written in Basque, not Gaelic. http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/horse.html

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Drooper
Sorry Joshua, you've not yet convinced me.

I tohught the shafts were just supposed to be ports to carry the Pahroas to their rightful place in the heavens - pointing to particular stars, not particular direction. Again North/South dhas no relevance. So it isn't a question of having it both ways. The Pyramids and the Nile mimic the milky way and Orion's belt and shafts are the routes to the relevant stars.

Also, I can't see why bendy shafts is such a problem. Is there sometihng in ancient Eqyption religion and mythology surrounding their Pahroas that means any shaft designed to be a road to the heavens needs to be straight?

If you feell inclined, you might like to fill me in a little bit more about the backgrounfd to this theory and why it seems to be so controversial. It seems perfectly rational to me and fits with ancient Egyption beliefs.

Here are the problems:


The theory about the soul of a Pharaoh needing shafts to get to heaven is unfounded - no other Pharaonic pyramid or tomb employs them, and no text supports them. As the incarnation of Ra, the sun god, a Pharaoh would have no place in the night sky anyway. In truth, no one knows exactly what the shafts were for.

The bendy shafts are a problem if one contends they point as specific stars, based on the angle of the shafts as they come off the Queen's Chamber. When the shafts bend, they point at completely different areas of the sky than they would had they travelled in a straight line. But this ultimately doesn't matter, since (as the last point indicated), Pharaohs didn't use little shafts to get to heaven.

The Belt of Orion, while noticed by the Egyptians of course, did not have any special significance in Egypt. There was no reason for the Egyptians to arrange the Giza plateau in such a manner...and if they had, surely they would've included a monument where Sirius is supposed to be, given its immediate proximity to Orion and its significance (it was the most important star in the sky to the Egyptians).

You say that you believe the theory because it is both rational and consistent with ancient Egyptian beliefs, but this is where you are wrong. It is markedly inconsistent with ancient Egyptian beliefs, which is where the biggest problem lies. If the shaft theory and the Orion theory are correct, they require the complete invention of an entirely new facet of religious or scientific belief in ancient Egypt that is not supported by any artwork or texts, anywhere in Egypt. In other words, there is a distinct lack of evidence, aside from subjective interpretation.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Pie
1- I like to know about mummies, and why there appears to be a recent surge of fake mummies.

2- Why is it dismissed that trade was going on around the world, and yet the serpent image for example appears in Mayan temples Chinese temples and Egyptian temples, how can such wide spread people build similar structures when it is said nobody traveled around?

Persia fascinates me.

I have so many questions about this I will limit it to 2.

1. I haven't heard about fake mummies being resurgent of late. Do you have a reference?

2. The most simplistic answer is covergent social evolution. Sorta the same way that both Bats and Beetles developed wings, though in toally different contexts. Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.

RE: Persia.

When I was a boy, my dad (and our family) had the priviledge of being stationed in Iran. I have been kicking myself in the ass for almost 15 years (since I discovered ancient Perisa as a teen) that I did not accompany my mother on a trip that included Persepolis. I have pics. I have her recollections. I really want to/wish I'd gone myself. I have an on-line Iranian friend who I would love to travel back to her country with and have her take me to my old house in Tehran and to see Persepolis - where Alexander destroyed the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

But I don't think it's going to happen. :(

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.


You also must consider the time periods involved. The Mayan civilization dates between 320 (CE, I should really format my dates by the new standard) and 1100 CE, when the Toltecs conquered them. The ancient Egyptian civilization (if we measure from the Early Dynastic to the beginning of the Ptolemiac) spanned thousands of years, from around 3000 BCE to about 320 BCE - but ultimately ending about 600 years before the emergence of the Maya. The two civilizations were simply not contemporary.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


You also must consider the time periods involved. The Mayan civilization dates between 320 (CE, I should really format my dates by the new standard) and 1100 CE, when the Toltecs conquered them. The ancient Egyptian civilization (if we measure from the Early Dynastic to the beginning of the Ptolemiac) spanned thousands of years, from around 3000 BCE to about 320 BCE - but ultimately ending about 600 years before the emergence of the Maya. The two civilizations were simply not contemporary.

Yes, but.. and this is a woo woo but, not a rational thinker but... The end of Ptolomaic Egypt would give a few hundred year window (on either side) for a RA type reed boat expidition bringing the culture and knowledge of Egypt to meso-America "perhaps" planting the seeds for later Mayan and subsequent Aztec pyramid building civilizations.

But then again, I've been to Chichen Itza and not to Giza so what do I know. ;)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Yes, but.. and this is a woo woo but, not a rational thinker but... The end of Ptolomaic Egypt would give a few hundred year window (on either side) for a RA type reed boat expidition bringing the culture and knowledge of Egypt to meso-America "perhaps" planting the seeds for later Mayan and subsequent Aztec pyramid building civilizations.

But then again, I've been to Chichen Itza and not to Giza so what do I know. ;)


Excellent! And although the Egyptian cobra was always paired with the Vulture (being the symbols of upper and lower Egypt), given the process of time resulting in garbling of the message, by the time it got to meso-America, the Vulture was left out, and they simply gave the serpent feathers. The product - Kukulkan. Fascinating... ;)

Hey, I should be writing these books...

[Akots]

On the subject of feathered serpents, what exactly is a Quetzalcoatl? I mean besides the prehistoric dinosaur-glider. I love the name, and i love the imagery it conjures up in one's imaginations, but i know nothing of it's signifigance, or where it originated from.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Akots
On the subject of feathered serpents, what exactly is a Quetzalcoatl? I mean besides the prehistoric dinosaur-glider. I love the name, and i love the imagery it conjures up in one's imaginations, but i know nothing of it's signifigance, or where it originated from.

Historically speaking, a Quetzalcoatl is a Toltec king, born about 950 CE or thereabouts. His father, Mixcoatl, was king until he got killed by a jealous uncle (Lion King, anyone?) who took the throne.

Quetzalcoatl didn't have that name to begin with. He was a precocious genius, apparently, and his teachers gave him the name - which means "plumed serpent" - and was synonymous with "sage". Quetzalcoatl grew up and, after a fight, pushed his evil uncle into a sacrificial fire, thereby reclaiming his rightful place as king (The ciiiircle of liiiiiife.......).

Quetzalcoatl was a "bleeding-heart liberal" who abolished human sacrifice (after bumping off his uncle), declaring only snakes, birds, and plants approved for the ritual. This seriously pissed off the priests - and this is where the real Quetzalcoatl starts becoming intertwined with legend and myth. The priests hired a Bad god whose name started with a T (sorry, can't help you more than that). With the help of some other Bad gods, he got Quetzalcoatl very drunk, and used a beautiful girl to seduce him. His hangover the next morning was nothing compared to the shock of his broken vow of celibacy, and he ran away in shame, wandering around for some 20 or 30 years until he got to the Gulf of Mexico.

Promising some witnesses that "I shall return", Quetzalcoatl sailed off like General MacArthur across the sea, landing amongst the Mayas in the Yucatan peninsula, who called him Kukulkan, "feathered serpent". They loved him, but for some reason he couldn't take life anymore and went out in a blaze of glory, torching himself Buddhist monk-style (sorry). Suffering from moderate to acute death, Quetzalcoatl was unable to make his glorious return to Mexico.

The Toltecs never knew this, even after conquering the Maya; so when they became the Aztecs over time, the story of Quetzalcoatl promising to return was passed on. Like Joe DiMaggio, Quetzalcoatl was so popular that after he'd been dead (or missing, in this case) awhile, he became a god. Somehow, though, Quetzalcoatl also became white - and when about 200 Spanish Conquistadores invaded, they were able to destroy an empire of thousands of warriors, because the Aztecs were afraid to touch the white visitors, who may have been embodiments or relatives of Quetzalcoatl. Religion never hurt anyone...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Quetzalcoatl was a "bleeding-heart liberal" who abolished human sacrifice (after bumping off his uncle), declaring only snakes, birds, and plants approved for the ritual. This seriously pissed off the priests - and this is where the real Quetzalcoatl starts becoming intertwined with legend and myth. The priests hired a Bad god whose name started with a T (sorry, can't help you more than that). With the help of some other Bad gods, he got Quetzalcoatl very drunk, and used a beautiful girl to seduce him. His hangover the next morning was nothing compared to the shock of his broken vow of celibacy, and he ran away in shame, wandering around for some 20 or 30 years until he got to the Gulf of Mexico.


To prevent any misunderstandings, I should perhaps be a bit more forthcoming. Although the legend says priests in league with evil gods conspired to bring about the end of Quetzalcoatl's reign, there's obviously been some rewriting of history done here. Quetzalcoatl may have gotten drunk and had his tryst with the lovely girl, but it's unlikely the gods and priests had a hand in it.

I believe Quetzalcoatl did get drunk and violate his vow, but there's no need for gods or scheming priests to explain the events. He was a man who happened to be weak where most me are, and got caught - it was simply the fact that he was king, and not supposed to be weak, that was the crux of the problem (QuetzalClinton?).

Quetzalcoatl imposed his 20 or 30-year exhile on himself; with such freely expressed shame, it's doubtful that he ordered the spread of the "evil priests and gods" story. Rather, after his departure and the raising of his life to the status of legend, his followers themselves seem to have concocted the story. For all his great deeds, Quetzalcoatl was human after all - and the people may have simply forgiven his slip. He was loved even after he left, and for centuries afterward - and eventually morphed into a divinely-guided megaman who could do no wrong in the peoples' eyes, so they made an excuse for him.

As Kukulkan, he had a rather nice pyramid dedicated to him. UnrepentantSinner saw it at Chichen Itza...

http://www.crystalinks.com/chichensides.jpg

[UnrepentantSinner]

http://www.geocities.com/horemheb19/

You can see me standing next to Kukulcan's head. Kukulcan, the only deity you can wear to a fancy dress party. :)

I have a really good Kukulcan pyramid photo, but I don't have on any readily availible servers. Might try and upload it later.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused: I have heard that in some cultures (not necessarily ancient ones), one always wipes with the left hand, and eats with the right. This (I have heard) is one of the reasons why in some cultures, extending your left hand to shake hands is a grave insult.

[RSLancastr]

Mormons have a great interest in finding signs of great pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas, due to one of their holy books (the Book of Mormon, I think) giving "historical accounts" of said civilizations.

Has anything been found that they have latched onto?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
I have heard that in some cultures (not necessarily ancient ones), one always wipes with the left hand, and eats with the right. This (I have heard) is one of the reasons why in some cultures, extending your left hand to shake hands is a grave insult.

I lived in one of those cultures. In Iran, at least in the 1970s, it was still common for them to wipe with their left hand and then wash it off.

You can imagine the look of horror my neighbors gave me when I hungrily dug into my lunch... with my left hand.

[LW]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
In the diagrams I've provided above, the entire contents of the cartouche are not included (because they are considered irrelevant, apparently)...but I think they are relevant, because they exhibit the exact same kind of effect (fill plaster falling out) that resulted in the "helicopter".

Yup. The mysterious-looking box with the jackal-headed standard is actually combination of two hieroglyphs: wsr that occurs in Ramsesses's regal name (Usermaatresetepenre - try to say that out loud) and mn that occurs in Seti's name (Menmaatre). It may be interesting to note that even though in both names the 're' syllable occurs last, it is written first in the cartouche since it was, after all, name of the sun god.

BTW, above I confused the identities of Upper and Lower Egypt, as the bee was for Lower and reed for Upper part of the land.

In any case, the names of Egyptian pharaohs are rather interesting. They had five royal names: one that signified his aspect as Horus, one for his role in protection of "Two Ladies", or the Vulture Goddes of Upper Egypt and the Cobra Goddes of Lower Egypt, one "Golden Horus" name whose significance is, as far as I know, unknown. The two most important names were his birth name ("Son of Ra" or "duck and sun" name) that was given to him at birth and the regal name ("Bee and reed" name) that he took when he ascended to the throne and that was his "official" name. Most modern sources use birth names for the pharaohs, or more precicely, Greek renditions of them.

Another interesting trivia tidbit is that it is highly anachronist to use the title "pharaoh" for Khufu, the builder of the Great Pyramid. The literal translation of the title is "Great House" and it originally ment only the palace of the king. Gradually its meaning shifted to "Court of the King". The first inscriptions that use 'pharaoh' as a synonum for the king date from Akhenaten's reign, almost 1200 years after Khufu's death. (And 50 years before the reign of Seti).

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Steveo
Great thread Joshua, Thanks for the info. I have another one. I read a book Years ago by Berry Fell, Called America B.C. It talks about a possible link between the ancient Celtics and New England. Going back as far as 800 BCE. It sounded pretty far-fetched and I have never heard much else on the subject. Is there anything to it?

Barry Fell... Now there is a perfect example of a guy who could find evidence for his "theories" in a box of Corn Flakes.

Every "mystery" he ever investigated turned out to perfectly support the conclusion he had drawn before he even put his boots on to go check them out (i.e. The Kensington Stone, the Los Lunas Inscription, "America's Stonehenge", etc...)

He was an expert marksman when it came to drawing the bullseyes around the bullet holes.

btw... here is a pretty good cult archaeology debunking site:

http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
Mormons have a great interest in finding signs of great pre-Columbian civilizations in the Americas, due to one of their holy books (the Book of Mormon, I think) giving "historical accounts" of said civilizations.

Has anything been found that they have latched onto?

The Book of Mormon was a series of gold plates given to one Joseph Smith (the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) by an angel in 1829. The plates were inscribed in an indecipherable language, and the angel also gave Smith a set of super secret spy spectacles with which he could read the text in English. The plates were buried in a nearby wood, and Smith, using not the spectacles but a special "seeing stone" that he often used during magic tricks (he was formerly a magician), began dictating to a note-taker the English translation of the Book of Mormon. The dictation took 60 days, allegedly. However, Smith had actually begun dictating the book a year earlier; but those 116 pages were lost when the secretary took the pages home to show his wife. Dictation then stopped until the following year, when he began again - not only "translating" the text with his seeing stone, but receiving "revelations" as well, which he included in the text. One of them featured a warning from God of the possibility that the previous pages would be found, and that


"...they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. And, behold, they will publish this, and Satan will harden the hearts of the people to stir them up to anger against you, that they will not believe my words."

This is an obvious attempt to cover himself in case the original pages were found, and shown not to be the same as the new ones, which would indeed prove that Smith had pretended to translate.

Many Mormon sites feature a "challenge" to those who contest the authenticity of the Book of Mormon; the challenge involves composing a similar epic involving ancient Tibet (because you probably know nothing about ancient Tibet, just like Smith knew nothing about ancient America), and requires that the challenger be "23 years old" and "have had only 3 years of formal education, having spent most of his life in backwoods farming communities". The epic must also be "proven true", as the Book of Mormon has. This, coupled with the other conditions of the "challenge", makes it obvious that the challenge is rhetorical.

But the fact of the matter is, the Book of Mormon has failed, time after time, the very challenge its advocates offer in support of it; no archaeological evidence has been found, anywhere, that substantiates anything in the Book of Mormon. It has apparently been "proven true" by virtue of the fact that all its believers say it is true - and after all, the Book of Mormon itself says it is true. Of course, the Book of Mormon also says the Red Sea is in Galilee, instead of near Egypt.

[Checkmite]

(clearing throat)

...any other questions, guys? I was having fun...

[atomicmutant]

Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is there any evidence that cave women looked like Racquel Welch in "One Million Years BC"????

[atomicmutant]

Scrutinizer...dagnabit....I was gonna say something about that in my post, being a huge fan of that movie. I'm glad you asked about that. May be a topic all by itself..:)

I don't think so, nor do I think there is any actual evidence to support the existence of the Valley of Gwangi, or that cowboys ever roped a dinosaur....

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.

Well I really must apologize, AtomicMutant, but that question is out of my perview.

Archaeology's playing field extends from the present back until the dawn of civilization - that is, the era in which men began building permanent settlements, learned domestication/agricultural/industrial methods, and so forth. The earliest such settlements we can find date back to possibly around 7000 BC at the earliest. Anything involving humans before that becomes the property of Biological Anthropology. The age of the dinosaurs ended, on the other hand, around 66 million years ago, and is the property of Palaeontology. Even if we use the earliest humanoid apes as our starting point (around 200,000 years ago, apparently), there's still quite a time gap to cover - and I wouldn't be the one to cover it. You'd have to talk to a palaeontologist. :(

However, I've heard it through the grapevine that the Paluxy River "manprints" are actually the footprints of a three-toed bipedal dinosaur.

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...

I understood your intention - that's why I apologized upon not being able to fully answer it. The Paluxy prints are nearly always offered in favor of religion - by Christian Creationists, who insist that the world must only be a few thousand years old, and by Hindu Fundamentalists, who insist that man must be millions of years old. As far as I know, the Paluxy prints are those of a three-toed dinosaur, whose rather plainly-shaped foot suggested a sandal print. But the "manprints", as they are called, have bottom contour (unlike a sandal print), though that contour is very not primate-like. The prints are too big to have been made by any human whose remains have been found to date.

As for contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas, allow me to lay out my argument against such contact.

Firstly, there is the time issue. What we know as "Ancient Egypt" was the time between the Predynastic Period (c. 3000 BCE) - the "time before the kings" when the first nomadic tribes began settling along the Nile - to the end of the New Kingdom (1070 BCE), after which the last of the Pharaohs were replaced with foreign rulers and eventually the Romans. The earliest American civilization we know of - the Toltecs - came to be around 350 BCE. If the ancient Egyptians had visited the Americas, they would've been lucky to find another human there.

Secondly, there is the logistical issue. The ancient Egyptians became more than adept at navigating the Nile River; however, they simply did not do the Open Sea. When navigating in the Mediterranean was absolutely necessary, the ships literally hugged the coast, because they weren't built for oceanic travel. No Egyptian seacraft could've withstanded a trans-Atlantic voyage, for certain.

Thirdly, and most obviously (in my opinion, at least), there is no record of any such contact. Not only that, but there are no cultural artifacts - instances where Egyptian mythology or symbology rubbed off on the natives. The only thing pre-columbian civilization seems to share with Egypt is sun worship - something that practically every ancient civilization exhibited. Some assert that the precolumbians got the idea of pyramid building from the Egyptians - but this doesn't stand, because the precolumbians (1) didn't build true pyramids like the Egyptians did, and (2) used their pyramids for completely different purposes than the Egyptians.

As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...

[atomicmutant]

As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...

I am really looking forward to this. I'm tired of made up mysteries like Atlantis, I'm sure the real ones are much more compelling....
Get some sleep..see ya tomorrow, and thanks!

[atomicmutant]

Oh, yeah, the other part of the contact between Egypt and the Americas had to do with coffee beans that weren't from that part of the world being found in a tomb. This is way second hand info, I'm just trying to relay it.....so I can't back that up....but anyway..there it is.

[LW]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?
Well, this one is not overtly strange but it was certainly a very surprising find: The Wolf Cave (http://www.nba.fi/ARCHAEOL/RESEARCH/susieng.htm) near Kristiinankaupunki, Finland. It is a cave that contains stone age artifacts. The surprising thing is that they predate the last ice age, being roughly 100000 years old. As the whole Finland was under a 3km thick glacier during the last glaciation period, it was believed that all traces of prior habitation would have been vanished during it.

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


1. I haven't heard about fake mummies being resurgent of late. Do you have a reference?

2. The most simplistic answer is covergent social evolution. Sorta the same way that both Bats and Beetles developed wings, though in toally different contexts. Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.

RE: Persia.

When I was a boy, my dad (and our family) had the priviledge of being stationed in Iran. I have been kicking myself in the ass for almost 15 years (since I discovered ancient Peri's as a teen) that I did not accompany my mother on a trip that included Persepolis. I have pics. I have her recollections. I really want to/wish I'd gone myself. I have an on-line Iranian friend who I would love to travel back to her country with and have her take me to my old house in Tehran and to see Persepolis - where Alexander destroyed the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

But I don't think it's going to happen. :(

1)It was on documentary I was watching, what started out as a rare mummy form Persia turning up on the black-market in India(?)turned into a horrific murder manhunt. At the end it was still being investigated as moe were still being discovered. I look through the paper stack and see if I can find where and what it is was on for you.

2) Do you have any more info for this.

Persia shame on you and I bet you did kick your ass on missing out.

Last part???

[Checkmite]

The following is a list of my favorite archaeological "mysteries", along with short descriptions of what they entail. Though it isn't my direct intention, this list may prove that you don't need thousand-year-old astronauts, electric lighting in ancient tombs, and the like, to have a fascinating puzzle on your hands. Let's dive in, shall we?

The "People of the Sea"
Let's start in Egypt - good a place as any. Around 1130 BCE, the entire eastern Mediterranean Sea was beseiged by a band of merry marauders called the "People of the Sea". They sacked towns and villages along the coasts of Greece and Italy, Turkey and Canaan, leaving havoc and destruction in their wake - in fact, these people completely obliterated the Hittites - something even Ramesses the Great wasn't able to do. Then they set their sights on the big fish, Egypt. They attacked on and off, in an almost Viking fashion, for around 50 years or so. Interestingly, they made a point of attacking governmental and administrative buildings and structures, rather than houses and cultural centers.

The People of the Sea were defeated decisively by Ramesses III in a grand battle in the Nile Delta - think D-Day, except the invaders lost. But aside from these facts, we still don't know for certain who the People of the Sea were, or where they came from. Captions at the Temple of Karnak suggest that they were a collaboration of many traditional Egyptian enemies such as the Tyrrhenians and the Philistines - some of whom were enduring famine and thus may have had a motive - but the nature of their alliance, where they were based, and how these starving peoples could have funded their incredible war machine, are true mysteries. Other accounts suggest they may have been deserters from a hitherto unknown army. The beginnings of their attacks coincide with the first fall of Troy (not to be mistaken with the grand Trojan War), so there may be a link there as well. But so far, this is a most murky chapter in our understanding of history.

Roanoke
The island of Roanoke, near Cape Hatteras, was the site of several doomed English colonies established by Sir Walter Raleigh in the late 1500's. The first was established in 1585. It was militaristic in nature; the colonists' task was to build a fort there. This settlement was visited by Francis Drake in 1586, who found the colonists at war with the Roanoke indians that inhabited the island; after much deliberation, that colony decided to return to England. Richard Grenville, Raleigh's cousin, visited the island a week or so after it had been abandoned, and became distressed at finding it empty. He left 15 men and enough supplies to keep them for two years on Roanoke, to "hold the land" until he could return from England with a new settlement expedition.

That expedition was formed by Raleigh in 1587, and consisted of 150 men, women, and children. They arrived on the island expecting to find the 15 men Grenville had left behind; instead, they found one's skeleton, and no trace of the rest. The friendly Croatoan indians insisted that the Roanoke indians had killed the 15 men, so the colonists fell upon the only Roanoke indian town on the island - only to find it abandoned, and that they had accidentally killed several Croatoan indians who were scavenging for abandoned supplies there. Oops. Nevertheless, the Croatoan indians forgave them.

So the colony was established on August 13th, 1587. On August 27th John White, the colony's governor, left Roanoke at the behest of the colonists, leaving his daughter and her family behind. Given the penchant for colonies to disappear on this island, White gave the colony specific instructions as to what signs to leave should the colony have to move or encounter trouble. He was to return with supplies from England - but due to a war with Spain, no supply ship could be sent. Governor White lobbied hard, but it was 1590 before a supply expedition could be mounted.

The supply fleet reached Roanoke Island on August 12th, 1590 - to find the colony completely deserted. Houses had been torn down, their wood used to make a crude palisade fort. Rusted iron lay strewn about, indicating that the colony had been deserted for quite a while. At the top of a hill, the searchers found the letters "CRO" carved into a tree, and on one of the palisade posts, the word "CROATOAN was carved. No where in evidence were the signs White declared should be used in case of trouble. There were no skeletons...no traces at all.

White's expedition was unable to search Croatoan Island because of stormy weather; they resolved to sail to the West Indies to resupply, then return to Croatoan Island in an attempt to solve the mystery. But in transit, the fleet was blown off course and ended up at the Azores eventually. Unable to finance another trip, White resigned himself to the fact that he would never see his lost family again. There would be other attempts to search for the lost colony, all in vain. When Jamestown was settled in 1607, the colonists there asked the local indians if they had any idea what had happened to the Roanoke colony, but they didn't. No trace of that colony has been found to this day.

Well, the typing has taken longer than I thought it would. These two articles must suffice for now; after work I'll add to the list...meanwhile, you're free to dig up whatever you can regarding these two subjects.

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, love those two mysteries. I had heard of the Roanoke one, actually....I remember seeing the story, just as you recount it, illustrated in, I believe, a Ripley's Believe it or Not comic book when I was young. It actually creeped me out, and your mention of the tree carving brought back the shivers....disappeared.....without a trace....ooooooOOOOOOO!

What's amazing is that the actual story as you've relayed it is exactly what I first read about, they didn't really embellish it at all.

I had never heard of the people of the sea before...good one.

Any others you have, I'm really enjoying this, feel free to continue, and thank you!

[atomicmutant]

Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....

[UnrepentantSinner]

Interesting article on Roanoke:
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1101web/roanoke.html
It discusses the reports of sightings of whites in the interior.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by atomicmutant
Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....

I must apologize...this has been one busy week! I've only had time to drop in now and then for a quick look-see...I think I should be able to post some more stuff within the next day or two.

[RichardR]

Joshua:

I believe that Sitchin was supposed to have translated the ancient Sumerian texts, and (according to him), they show that humans are descended from aliens. It’s connected with this Planet X / 12th planet stuff.

I presume that archeology has its respected peer-reviewed journals that would publish the details of any such translations. I had a couple of questions about that:


What are the titles of such peer reviewed journals?

Did Sitchin or anybody else publish details of any translations that support the ancient astronaut theories? If so where, and what was the feedback from the archeological community?

(Or did he just publish his books?)

Has any scholar of Sumerian culture ever published any comments about Sitchin’s theories?

What other views are there on these old texts, and what is the best places to read about them?

[Bluegill]

I have a question. Last year I heard a story on NPR about a discovery off the coast of Cuba. In thousands of feet of water, researchers using sensing equipment (sonar, I guess) picked up very intriguing shapes on the ocean floor. It looked for all the world like cut stone blocks arranged in regular (and apparently non-natural) patterns.

Quite a few scientists who had seen the data said that it really looked like underwater ruins of some sort, but it was miles off the coast and in deep water. There were two theories:

1) The features were natural, just unusual

2) the features were man-made from thousands of years ago, but some unknown geological activity had sunk them.

The scientists interviewed seemed keenly interested in researching it before the "cult archaeologists" could start messing around. But the depth of the water makes is hard to get to--I think there was going to be some kind of research expedition this year.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about, and have they heard any more news on it?

[Checkmite]

RichardR and Bluegill:

I've only just seen your last posts, so sorry I couldn't respond before now. Bluegill, you can expect a post regarding your question tonight; RichardR, I'll try to get to yours tonight but it may take longer, as your questions require a little bit of digging.

Cheers,

Josh K

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/01.html) and 2 (http://www.amherst.edu/~classics/class36/ancsrc/02.html).
A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by magimix
One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

I have a question about the Library at Alexanderia. It supposed held vast amounts of wrtitings that held knowledge from across the known world. I don't mean knowledge of aliens or Atlantis (I don't beleive in that) but knowlwdge in science, mathmatics, medicine, philosophy, poetry, etc. As it was expaline dto me by a friend the caretakers of the Library would meet people visiting Alexanderia and copy everything that they had in written form.b It's destruction meant ther loss of tremendous amount of knowledge. Is this true?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Bluegill
I have a question. Last year I heard a story on NPR about a discovery off the coast of Cuba. In thousands of feet of water, researchers using sensing equipment (sonar, I guess) picked up very intriguing shapes on the ocean floor. It looked for all the world like cut stone blocks arranged in regular (and apparently non-natural) patterns.

Quite a few scientists who had seen the data said that it really looked like underwater ruins of some sort, but it was miles off the coast and in deep water. There were two theories:

1) The features were natural, just unusual

2) the features were man-made from thousands of years ago, but some unknown geological activity had sunk them.

The scientists interviewed seemed keenly interested in researching it before the "cult archaeologists" could start messing around. But the depth of the water makes is hard to get to--I think there was going to be some kind of research expedition this year.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about, and have they heard any more news on it?

Well, first of all, you needn't worry too much about the cult archaeologists getting their first; the site is in Cuban waters, and even the scientists who discovered the thing couldn't follow through on a trip planned for July because of permit problems.

There's a whispered rumor that National Geographic will be taking a trip to Cuba next year, and is somewhat interested in the site. Until then, nobody knows anything. This is still a very fresh find, so be patient - I'm as eager to hear about it as you are!

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LCBOY

A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.

The second city you dimly remember may be Misenum. At this point, I'm unaware of any other city.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by LCBOY


I have a question about the Library at Alexanderia. It supposed held vast amounts of wrtitings that held knowledge from across the known world. I don't mean knowledge of aliens or Atlantis (I don't beleive in that) but knowlwdge in science, mathmatics, medicine, philosophy, poetry, etc. As it was expaline dto me by a friend the caretakers of the Library would meet people visiting Alexanderia and copy everything that they had in written form.b It's destruction meant ther loss of tremendous amount of knowledge. Is this true?

The destruction of the library and most everything in it was a tremendous loss. Most of the loss was in the form of historical accounts - scrolls and papyri, that could help us understand more about ancient cultures. I'm not so sure a lot of scientific knowledge was lost, however - it seems unlikely to me that the only copies of this or that modern (for the time) scientific text would be placed in the library. Of course, since it's all gone, there's really no telling what was in fact lost.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by RichardR
Joshua:

I believe that Sitchin was supposed to have translated the ancient Sumerian texts, and (according to him), they show that humans are descended from aliens. It’s connected with this Planet X / 12th planet stuff.

For those unfamiliar...Sitchin wrote a book called The 12th Planet, in which he describes his interpretations of some Sumerian texts which talk about the creation of the world. He says that references to various gods and mythic places are in fact references to planets - 12 in all, with the Sun counting as the first, and earth's moon counting as a fifth planet.

According to Sitchin, the texts describe a large celestial event in which Nibiru, a sacred city often referred to, was actually a wandering planet that got caught by the sun's gravity. Spiraling in toward the sun, Nibiru passed Neptune, whose own gravity altered Nibiru's course and caused a bulge to appear in the planet's side. Upon passing Uranus, this bulge was ripped open, pieces of it becoming Uranus' moons. Nibiru then passed a planet between Saturn and Uranus, but it was a small one - Nibiru's gravity flung it out beyond Neptune, where it became Pluto. Nibiru continued on, passing Saturn and Jupiter without incident. It came to one special planet between Jupiter and Mars. Nibiru's gravity seriously damaged this planet in passing. Nibiru continued its voyage around the sun and back out into space, returning a couple thousand years later to rip the planet apart completely, with half of it becoming the asteroid belt, and the other half being thrown past Mars and becoming Earth. Nibiru's own moon got caught by this new planet and became its Moon. Nibiru was scheduled to return earlier this month...but of course it didn't, because this interplanetary ping-pong match didn't really happen.

Originally posted by RichardR
I presume that archeology has its respected peer-reviewed journals that would publish the details of any such translations. I had a couple of questions about that:

What are the titles of such peer reviewed journals?

I'm afraid I couldn't tell you. Several European universities have their own Sumerology departments; any translations would probably be published in those universities' bulletins.

Originally posted by RichardR
Did Sitchin or anybody else publish details of any translations that support the ancient astronaut theories? If so where, and what was the feedback from the archeological community?

(Or did he just publish his books?)

If you read the texts Sitchin used, you'd be hardpressed to find any planetary references. I can't find any mention anywhere of any orthodox Sumerologists trying to answer his theories - I believe they all decided it was best not to try after Sitchin announced that he was a Sumerian whose job was to prepare the Earth for the next coming of Nibiru.

Originally posted by RichardR
Has any scholar of Sumerian culture ever published any comments about Sitchin’s theories?

No, but lay persons have made comparisons. For example, Sitchin takes the word shem, as it appears in the texts, to mean "sky chamber" (which he interprets as meaning "starship"). Orthodox Sumerologists take shem to mean "name" in the context of "reputation". Similarly, he misinterprets the term anunnaki as "they which have come down to earth from above", but Sumerologists have translated the word as "descendants of the ruler". This sort of twisting of definitions can be found in many crack works, including, notably, those of Von Daniken.

Originally posted by RichardR
What other views are there on these old texts, and what is the best places to read about them?


As a matter of fact, you can read many translated and transliterated texts here (http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/). The specific accounts of creation Sitchin claims are an account of the solar demoliton derby described above can be found here (http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm) and here (http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr112.htm).

[reprise]

I vote that we get Hal to make this thread "sticky", there's an amazing amount of information in it.

Can you recommend some resources on the Amazon tribes (the real ones, not the ones of legend)? I'm aware that there is some archeological evidence that aggressive, largely female tribes existed in the region and that the archeological evidence discounts many of the Amazonian legends, but I'm not sure where to look for further factual information.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by LCBOY

A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.

Herculaneum, which also was destroyed.

[Bluegill]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Well, first of all, you needn't worry too much about the cult archaeologists getting their first; the site is in Cuban waters, and even the scientists who discovered the thing couldn't follow through on a trip planned for July because of permit problems.

There's a whispered rumor that National Geographic will be taking a trip to Cuba next year, and is somewhat interested in the site. Until then, nobody knows anything. This is still a very fresh find, so be patient - I'm as eager to hear about it as you are!

I wait three months for an answer, and this is what I get?
:)
Thanks for responding. From what I remember about the story on NPR, it sounded very interesting. I hope National Geographic goes for it. I can wait a year. Delayed gratification is character building.

[UnrepentantSinner]

It might not be much of a consolation, but other supposed antedeluvian architechture has turned out to be natural in nature.

Do a google for "Yonaguni" and dig around for some that claim it's natural.. the science is more solid that on the woo woo sites that claim it's antedeluvian.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by reprise
I vote that we get Hal to make this thread "sticky", there's an amazing amount of information in it.

Can you recommend some resources on the Amazon tribes (the real ones, not the ones of legend)? I'm aware that there is some archeological evidence that aggressive, largely female tribes existed in the region and that the archeological evidence discounts many of the Amazonian legends, but I'm not sure where to look for further factual information.

The Amazons, up till now, were considered part of ancient Greek mythology - a tribe of warrior women who roamed about Asia Minor. But don't count them out yet...I've found a very good page about them here (http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/prehistory/aegean/amazons/amazonarchaeology.html) that I think you'll be interested in.

[Freda]

Very interesting site Joshua,

I have read a couple of books on Atlantis a few years back, but found them very conflicting. They each purported Atlantis to be in different places.
1. Mediterranean near Greece
2. Off South American coast in the Atlantic

But then I read mentioned that it was in the Pacific Ocean.

Which do you feel is the correct location. Several of the artifacts supposedly turned up in Egypt, which seems to bear out the area as being in the Mediterranean.

In that case why was it called Atlantis ?

Do you have any books to recommend reading on the matter or can you direct me to sites on the web for me to investigate please ?

Thanks
Freda

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Freda
Very interesting site Joshua,

I have read a couple of books on Atlantis a few years back, but found them very conflicting. They each purported Atlantis to be in different places.
1. Mediterranean near Greece
2. Off South American coast in the Atlantic

But then I read mentioned that it was in the Pacific Ocean.

Which do you feel is the correct location. Several of the artifacts supposedly turned up in Egypt, which seems to bear out the area as being in the Mediterranean.

In that case why was it called Atlantis ?

Do you have any books to recommend reading on the matter or can you direct me to sites on the web for me to investigate please ?

Thanks
Freda

My personal stance regarding Atlantis is that it didn't exist...at least not as such. The sources for the story of Atlantis (Plato's dialogues Critias and Timaeus) give very specific information about the era, location, size, and method of destruction of Atlantis; and although there are many people who claim that this or that site is the "real" Atlantis, there isn't a single proposed site in the entire world that meets the criteria as given by Plato. Of course, if Atlantis is fiction, it may have any number of inspirational sources - some say that Atlantis is based on the destruction of the island of Thera by the Santorini volcano. I don't share this belief, as neither of Plato's dialogues mentions volcanic-related phenomena as contributing to the island's destruction. But that's just me.

To understand my argument better, please read the opening post in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33523). It's a somewhat more detailed treatment.

[Checkmite]

Since this is no longer the "Politics, History, and Current Events" forum, I think this thread ought to be moved to the proper place. Admins?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then? :confused:

That's why we don't shake hands with our left hand, that's the one you use to wash your *ahem* backside. :D

[peptoabysmal]

Drat it. Forgot to ask my question.

How about those 500,000 year old spark plugs that were found in California?

[Dorian Gray]

1) How did the guy build the Crystal Palace?
2) Explain the Bimini Road.
3) Where is Atlantis?
4) Why are there no remnants of the Saurian civilization?
5) Where are the huge bits of the moon from when it rammed into the earth?
6) What is contained in the Hall of Records under the Sphinx?
7) Where are the records of the aliens who helped Egyptians build the Pyramids?
8) Where are the records of Atlanteans, specifically regarding pyramids, aliens, crystals, zero-point technology and submerged artifacts?
9) Have you ever visited this site, the source of most of my questions?
www.atlantisrising.com

If you like cult archaeology, this site will be like your Paradise.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
Drat it. Forgot to ask my question.

How about those 500,000 year old spark plugs that were found in California?

This would be the "Coso Artifact", found by some geology fans who were gathering mineral samples to sell at their shop. One of the enthusiasts was cutting through a suspected geode when he found that it wasn't a geode, but a stone which contained the remains of a material like porcelain, surrounded by corroded copper and encasing a steel element. A creationist geologist claimed that the stone would've taken around 500,000 years to form.

Subsequent investigation is impeded by the disappearance of the artifact; however, examination of the well-publicized X-rays of the Coso artifact have indicated that the spark plug was of a type manufactured in the 1920's by Champion; therefore, the "stone" was likely something akin to hardened clay, and the artifact cannot be older than 90 years.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
If you like cult archaeology, this site will be like your Paradise.

http://mysmilies.ipbfree.com/s/ups/dvx_rune/straightface.gif

[Pyrrho]

Moved by request.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Moved by request.

Help! I'm being repressed by the free-speech-crushing moderative Gestapo of the JREF Forum!!!....

...oh, wait, I'm the one that asked...sorry. :D

Any more questions?

[Doghouse Reilly]

I heard as a child about a long hall or tunnel (I have no idea where or from what era, only that it was somewhat ancient) that was specially constructed to allow people to whisper from great distances and still be heard. Does this sound like something you've ever heard of?
Also, is there any archeological evidence for the claim that there used to be red haired people in South America, who possibly came from Polynesia (maybe Easter Island?
I apologize for the somewhat vague nature of my queries, and appreciate any time you have to share whatever you may know regarding these topics.

[Dragonrock]

Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

[Hexxenhammer]

What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly
I heard as a child about a long hall or tunnel (I have no idea where or from what era, only that it was somewhat ancient) that was specially constructed to allow people to whisper from great distances and still be heard. Does this sound like something you've ever heard of?

It sounds similar to a place called the Hypogeum of Hal Seflieni. It has a room, called the "oracle room", with a specially carved subchamber. You speak into the subchamber's opening, and your voice reverberates through the entire complex like the command of an angry god. You have to speak into it, though, not whisper. I've got a thread about the Hypogeum ]here. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20558) That's the best I can do with that claim, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly
Also, is there any archeological evidence for the claim that there used to be red haired people in South America, who possibly came from Polynesia (maybe Easter Island?
I apologize for the somewhat vague nature of my queries, and appreciate any time you have to share whatever you may know regarding these topics.

Mummies with red hair have been found in South America (although none of them, to my knowledge, date to particularly ancient periods); and there are arguably red-haired natives on Easter Island. The assertion usually goes that the people of Easter Island had come from South America (rather than the other way around). This explanation has been proven at least theoretically possible by Thor Heyerdahl's famous Kon Tiki boat ride - but is otherwise unsubstantiated. So, the "case", as they say at the Yard, remains open.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

Is there any proof that they were enslaved - no. The Hebrews have at several times been subjugated, however. The history of the Israel region is a chain of flip-flops, with the Hebrews alternatingly ruling and being conquered. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Hebrews were never violently conquered - they battled occasionally when it was practical and winning was possible, but if the foe were too great, they became very passive and merely outlasted their subjugators. It is interesting to note that although none of the "ruling civilizations" ever had clashes or conflict with the Hebrews, all of those powerful empires - the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans - are long gone, while the Hebrews are ever-present!

I really couldn't tell you where the story of Moses comes from. I can tell you that if it is based on a real person, it is almost certainly exaggerated. According to the relevant religious text, Moses was 80 years old when he led the Exodus, and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. While that may be possible, it is not very probable.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?

Different tests have concluded that the Kennewick Man lived sometime between 9510 and 9320 B.P., and most likely lived his entire life within the region where he was found. This makes him too young to have been a part of the migration from Siberia.

As it stands, the date for the migration from Siberia has been pushed back a great deal, perhaps as far as 20,000 years ago (as opposed to 10,000 - 17,000 B.P), due to the finding that the Ushki Lake settlement (proposed "jump off" point for the Siberians) is contemporary with Clovis, the earliest North American settlement. It's unlikely that humans would've gotten from Siberia to New Mexico in 400 years. Although physically possible, it wouldn't leave any time for the settlement of the Northwest.

You can check out the National Park Service's Kennewick Man page here. (http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/index.htm) If you don't want to slog through all the reports, just read the NPS's press releases on the topic; they summarize things nicely.

[Dorian Gray]

Are you not going to answer the questions?

[Checkmite]

I'll get to them this evening.

[Skeptic]

There are hints of racism evident in his works as well - the Africans and South Americans must've had help from beyond, yet enigmas in white Europe, such as Stonehenge, draw very little attention from von Daniken.

HINTS of racism? The whole thing is one long "those brown people couldn't POSSIBLY have known that...". My favorite Daniken claim (from "Gold of the Gods", I think), is that an ancient Mayans (or Incas?) couldn't know how a human skeleton looked like because they didn't have X-ray machines; therefore, depictions of skeletons in their paintings are "proof" of extraterrestrial visitation.

No, I'm NOT making this up.

This was a drastic morphing of the Atlantis mythos - according to Plato (our only historical point of reference for Atlantis), Atlantis was destroyed by the gods for being unfaithful and thuggish. Notice how the message is warped. Plato intended the Atlantis story to serve as a parable of how pride can be disastrous when given free reign.

Which goes to show the very common phenomena of pseudo-"experts" on paranormal issues that never actually bothered to check out what the "evidence" they themselves used is...

By the way, in a recent NEW YORKER article, Egyptian archeologists got so annoyed at "new age" tourists that come to gawk at the pyramids while mumbling about "energies" and "cosmic harmonies" that they started to call them "pyramidiots".

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
1) How did the guy build the Crystal Palace?

According to this website (http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Crystal_Palace.html), the Crystal Palace (which no longer exists) seems to have been built from iron and glass in a relatively straightforward and unmysterious manner. Are you perhaps referring to something else?

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
2) Explain the Bimini Road.

The Bimini Road is a formation of beachrock, a conglomerate which is formed when chemicals found in seawater, with help from wave action (which occurs on beaches, of course) and oxidation, "cement" sections of sub-strata sand into a rock-like material. Over time, the rock continues to contract, fracturing naturally into regular sections. Core samples taken from several "seperate" stones in the Bimini Road clearly show shared striation between adjacent sections, and consistent strata and slope orientation, which basically means that the stones formed exactly where you see them today.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
3) Where is Atlantis?

I don't think there really was an Atlantis as such...see my link in an above post.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
4) Why are there no remnants of the Saurian civilization?

My first guess would be because there was no Saurian civilization. I would like to elaborate; however, my googling attempts reveal nothing but references from RPG sites.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
5) Where are the huge bits of the moon from when it rammed into the earth?

Current theories have the moon spinning off of the earth in the latter's formative stages. I don't ever remember hearing a theory about the moon and earth having a collision.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
6) What is contained in the Hall of Records under the Sphinx?

So far no such hall has been found - this despite active attempts to find any voids under the Sphinx with ground-penetrating radar. To date, there's nothing down there. As an aside, there's nothing in ancient Egyptian literature which suggests the existence of such a chamber.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
7) Where are the records of the aliens who helped Egyptians build the Pyramids?

There are none; again, this suggests there was no such help.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
8) Where are the records of Atlanteans, specifically regarding pyramids, aliens, crystals, zero-point technology and submerged artifacts?

If Atlantis really existed, the records would all have been submerged in the flooding and are probably long gone. Of course, I don't really subscribe to the existence of Atlantis anyway, so I don't expect any evidence to be found. I would love to be proven wrong - there are a great many real archaeologists who would also love to be proven wrong about it.

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
9) Have you ever visited this site, the source of most of my questions?
www.atlantisrising.com

If you like cult archaeology, this site will be like your Paradise.

I have, but I'm unimpressed. Especially when they start giving psychics' wild and unsupported theories more credibility than field archaeologists who actually handle the stuff they're talking about.

[Jas]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

Apparently (and I haven't actually researched this myself), according to one of my Arky profs, Josephus chronicled numerous 'Moses' stories (Moses the leader, Moses the quiet family man, Moses the ineffectual, etc), the Exodus happened to be the one that made it into the Bible.

Although at one point there were people of Syrio-palestinian descent in Egypt, but not 2.5 million of them, and they weren't a massive slave force.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?

A recent BIG victory in court for science over ignorance on this one. About a month or so ago. I'll try to find a link. Needless to say, for once the "good guys" won!

[Zanna]

this is my first post on this forum and i have been lurking around for a while and found this thread (which btw should really be called pseudoarcheology but anyways... )
many of you have most excellent questions and i have seen many of them answered quite comprehensively, but if this thread leaves you wanting more i highly recommend that you check out the hall of maat (http://www.hallofmaat.com) whose basic mission statement is to weigh the evidence for alternative history... they have lots of great articles and book reviews and a message board that has great people and lively discussion...
i am not saying this because i have to or because i get any sort of benefit but because i think that some here would enjoy the site and hopefully it can answer any questions that have not been answered in this thread... and because that site got my critical thinking muscle going which eventually led me here... lol

zanna :)

[Radek]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Well I really must apologize, AtomicMutant, but that question is out of my perview.

Archaeology's playing field extends from the present back until the dawn of civilization - that is, the era in which men began building permanent settlements, learned domestication/agricultural/industrial methods, and so forth. The earliest such settlements we can find date back to possibly around 7000 BC at the earliest. Anything involving humans before that becomes the property of Biological Anthropology. The age of the dinosaurs ended, on the other hand, around 66 million years ago, and is the property of Palaeontology. Even if we use the earliest humanoid apes as our starting point (around 200,000 years ago, apparently), there's still quite a time gap to cover - and I wouldn't be the one to cover it. You'd have to talk to a palaeontologist. :(

However, I've heard it through the grapevine that the Paluxy River "manprints" are actually the footprints of a three-toed bipedal dinosaur. First of all I would like to thank you for this thread, archaeology suffers from the many claims by woo woo people.
Then again I feel compelled to correct the above statement, but maybe it's just my European point of view.
The playing field of archaeology is the human ancestry from where it split off from the ancestor we share with the apes (according to biologists some 7 million years ago). The mesolithic/neolithic transition you declared the touchstone of archaeology is one of the great questions and will be for a while. Schöningen is archaeology.

[Dorian Gray]

Joshua:
Are you perhaps referring to something else? Perhaps. I'm talking about the house/residence/castle thingy involving heavy stones that weighed tons that some old man supposedly built by himself. It's in Florida, I believe. I have the name wrong, obviously.

I have been a member of that site for 3 years. I have enjoyed debating with the people who say:
)humans live on Venus and Mars
)the moon landing was faked
)the moon has a breatheable atmosphere
)the moon and every planet/planetoid has to have an atmosphere or it will explode
)There is some hall of records under the Sphinx
)Humans were created by a saurian/reptilian race called the Annunaki to mine gold on Earth. Humans are half-ape/half-Annunaki genetically engineered creatures.
)The end of the world is here, because everyone has black marks on their foreheads and that must be the mark of the Beast! (from a woman in her 50s who had apparently never heard of Ash Wednesday)
And more such woo. The woo goes on and on there.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
Joshua:
Perhaps. I'm talking about the house/residence/castle thingy involving heavy stones that weighed tons that some old man supposedly built by himself. It's in Florida, I believe. I have the name wrong, obviously.

The Coral Castle (http://www.coralcastle.com/home.asp), in Homestead, Florida, was built single-handedly by one Edward Leedskalnin from Latvia. Ed was around 33 when he began construction on the complex in 1920. Although Coral Castle wouldn't exactly qualify as an archaeological mystery, I shall touch briefly upon it.

Over 95% (roughly) of the sites you will encounter while doing a web search for the Coral Castle will be mystical in nature. Some of them promote a few glaring misconceptions, embellishments or omissions, and of course similar sites simply copy and spread the misinformation (since they all get their information from each other anyway). A good example of the sort of bad information you can get comes from the very first site you'll get by searching "Coral Castle" on Yahoo (http://www.parascope.com/en/articles/coralCastle.htm).

By way of example, one of the things that is expounded by sites which allege Ed possessed magical mystical neato powers is the fact that when Ed came to America from Latvia, his formal education was only equivalent to around the fourth grade. The unspoken yet painfully obvious implication here is that Ed was simply too stupid to be able to conceive of any scientific or mechanical means of doing what he did, and of course that's not true; because somebody's formal education ends at one point does not mean they stop learning. Indeed, Ed was remarkably intelligent, and he eagerly educated himself with his spare time. He studied books and learned from them - which leads us to the next mystical claim often touted by such sites; namely, that Ed was "often seen to study books about magnetism and cosmic forces". The implication here is that Ed learned and was subsequently able to tap into some obscure natural cosmic energy source to do his work. Oddly, you hear this sort of claim a lot...that by studying old library books, people unlock the secrets of mysterious and powerful energies. Well, if that's all it takes, then I'll see you at the library. Meanwhile, I don't know how many books about "cosmic forces" were around in the 1920's, but it is a fact that Amazing Ed used the knowledge gained from reading books about electricity to built his own AC generator. Mystical!

Some of these sites put forward completely unsubstantiated claims, without even bothering to attempt to qualify them, as if you're just supposed to believe them. The above-linked site is a prime example. Check out these bits of info...

Some teenagers spying on him one evening claimed they saw him "float coral blocks through the air like hydrogen balloons," but no one took them seriously. If their testimony can be believed, they were the only witnesses to the construction of Coral Castle.

You get this problem a lot, with many different claims on many different topics. It makes for a nice addition to an article - throw in some anonymous passerby who just happened to be driving down the road, and all the sudden you've got all the proof you need for a mystical explanation. Deus ex Machina. Who are these "teenagers"? Who heard their story and decided not to take them seriously? Look around...there's no evidence to support this claim at all; it may as well have been made up - and knowing what FATE will publish, it probably was.

He never shared the secret of its construction with anyone, saying only that he had rediscovered the laws of weight, measurement, and leverage used by the Ancient Egyptians, and that these lost principles somehow involved the relationship of the Earth to certain positions of the heavenly bodies.

Leedskalnin is quoted as saying, "I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids. I have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons."

These two paragraphs are almost just fine. They are entirely accurate, except for the claim thrown in at the end of the first paragraph. Weight, measurement, leverage - he made those claims, but Ed has never been quoted as saying these principles "involved the relationship of the Earth to certain positions of the heavenly bodies". Not only that, but considering Ed worked every single night for 20 straight years to build his castle, it doesn't make sense that Earth's "relationship" to certain positions of the heavenly bodies should be involved, because no heavenly body keeps its position every night for 20 straight years.

Even the purpose of Coral Castle was deliberately obscured. When asked why he assumed such an enormous undertaking, Leedskalnin smilingly explained that it was built entirely for his "Sweet Sixteen," Agnes Scuffs, a woman he once asked to wed, but who never left Latvia, where she married even before he arrived in Florida. Revealingly, he never contacted Agnes after coming to America. He seems to have used this tale to politely put off unwanted curiosity.

Ed was actually engaged to Agnes Scuffs, and she called off the wedding the day before it was supposed to take place. That was actually the reason Ed left Latvia; and it wasn't just an "excuse", he was very insistent that the Coral Castle was built for Agnes.

And lastly,

He was born in 1887 into a farming family at Stramereens Pogosta, a small village near Riga, Latvia, but emigrated to North America before the outbreak of World War I.

This is important, because the answer may speak closely to the real "mystery" behind the Coral Castle. The above quoted statement is simply wrong. Ed was born in 1887 near Riga, to be sure...but not to a "farming family". Ed Leedskalnin came from a family of stone masons.

If you want some entertainment, find some way to get a hold of the Coral Castle episode of In Search Of.... The people interviewed on that show go as far as insisting that Ed could mentally "douse" for subterranean deposits of coral, and there's a lovely "reinactment" where he raises a block from what looks like the middle of a grass field.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


A recent BIG victory in court for science over ignorance on this one. About a month or so ago. I'll try to find a link. Needless to say, for once the "good guys" won!

A second (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/19/court.skeleton.reut/index.html) big victory for the good guys!!! Just happened today. The question now is whether the loonies appeal to the SCOTUS.

[davefoc]

I just read through this thread. Very Interesting:

I had a few comments on some of the comments:

Another city destroyed by Vesuvius
I think Herculaneum might be what the person that asked about that was thinking about. One interesting thing that I learned from this link was that they have discovered 1800-2000 paper scrolls there which they are having some success translating.
http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-011.html


Sea Peoples
I think it is widely believed if not accepted by archeologists that at least some of the Sea Peoples were the Philistines although it's not clear where the Sea Peoples who became the Phillistines came from.
http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/filist1.html

Moses
My own view on this is that the story is close to a complete fabrication. There is no archeological support for the key elements and the almost complete lack of contemporary Egyptian supporting documentation makes the story unlikely enough that from my perspective it is reasonable to think of it as false. Although, people from the area of Israel clearly emigrated to and from Egypt and it is likely that this provided the seed for the stories.

Does JK or anybody else have any comments on the Olmec heads? These are large (6 feet or so in diameter) that seem to have African features that were created by the Olmecs a people that are believed to have lived in what is Mexico from 1300 BC to 400 BC.

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by davefoc
Does JK or anybody else have any comments on the Olmec heads? These are large (6 feet or so in diameter) that seem to have African features that were created by the Olmecs a people that are believed to have lived in what is Mexico from 1300 BC to 400 BC.

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

These heads bear wide noses, and full lips; features traditionally associated with Africans. However, the Olmecs are not related to the Africans - other features, like round faces and skin tone, distinguish them.

http://www.africanfront.com/images/olmec45.jpg

The Olmecs inhabited Mesoamerica, and their descendants can still be seen today. Here are some old photos of Olmec descendants:

http://www.geocities.com/conscious_mexicas/olmecpictures.html

It's interesting to note how these people can look very similar to the statues, and yet not very much like Africans. Though they have some similar features, it is simply a fascinating coincidence.

[JohnChasWebb]

Actually Iconoclast, your question reminded me of something.

There is a theory, originally proposed by Robert Bauval and expounded by Graham Hancock, that the pyramids of Giza were intentionally organized to represent the belt of Orion, the easily recognizable star constellation. This was "proven" by superimposing the image of Orion's belt over an aerial photograph of Giza.

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/airview.gif

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/orionbelt.gif

Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)
Part of the ancient Egyptian cosmology was that the Earth was a mirror image of the heavens. So, it is likely that 'North', in the heavens is going to be 'mirrored' as 'South' on the Earth.

[Checkmite]

This is the first time I've heard of the "mirror image" concept in Egyptian cosmology; nevertheless, for the sake of argument I will assume that it's true.

In such case, the pyramids still do not accurately reflect the sky. The "Orion's belt" comparison does not work if you simply vertically "flip" the landscape, as it would if the mirror image theory were true. You also need to make a horizontal flip (from east to west). Alternately, you can take the map and rotate it 180 degrees to achieve the desired layout. Either way, a "mirror image" of the Giza Plateau does not match Orion's belt; additional terrain manipulation is required. Thus, I would dismiss the mirror image claim.

[Tumblehome]

I'm glad this thread was revived, JK. It's been great going through it. My first question after reading the OP was about the Olmec heads, and I see you already answered it. I've been wondering about them for a long time.

I came across a couple of posts that I'd like to mention. From post #54 on the Baghdad battery:


This object, unearthed in Parthia, and a few other similar objects are, in fact, batteries, contemporary with the Roman Empire during the Pathian period (c. 300 BC - 300 AD). They are capable of producing about one volt of electricity, and were used to apply silver electroplate to copper vases and dishes. The silver was beaten and shaped until extremely thin and pliable; the silver was applied to the copper vessel, and a shot of electricity bonded the metals together. Shocking!


I looked this up just last week for a friend, and this is what I found on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery):


Some observe that the artifacts strongly resemble another type of object with a known purpose – namely, storage vessels for sacred scrolls from nearby Seleucia on the Tigris. Those vessels do not have the outermost clay jar, but are otherwise almost identical. Since it is claimed these vessels were exposed to the elements, it would not be at all surprising if any papyrus or parchment inside had completely rotted away, perhaps leaving a trace of slightly acidic organic residue.
Far from conclusive, but I don't think it can be said yet that they are in fact batteries, either.

Another bit of cult archaeology occured to me after reading your post (#91) on the Sea People:


Around 1130 BCE, the entire eastern Mediterranean Sea was beseiged by a band of merry marauders called the "People of the Sea". They sacked towns and villages along the coasts of Greece and Italy, Turkey and Canaan, leaving havoc and destruction in their wake - in fact, these people completely obliterated the Hittites - something even Ramesses the Great wasn't able to do. Then they set their sights on the big fish, Egypt. They attacked on and off, in an almost Viking fashion...


In the 1990's, Felice Vinci (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=74-1594770522-0) proposed that Homer's epic tales actually originated with the Scandinavians in the Baltic Sea. A cooling trend in the climate around 2000 BCE forced them south to the Mediterranean (according to Vinci), where they brought their marauding way of life and their mythology. Vinci points out that the Myceneans, whose origins are unknown, appeared around this time and operated in a Viking-like style.

Vinci says the geographical descriptions in the tales, which are hard to pin down in the Mediterranean, fit very well in the Baltic Sea and surrounding area. Also, descriptions of the weather, which is always cold and dreary, apply better to the Baltic than the Mediterranean. He found many place names on the Baltic coast which correspond to those in the tales, including the village of Toia (Troia in Greek) in a setting which closely matches Homer's description, as opposed to the Turkish Troy which bears little resemblance. Vinci points out that Homer did not create the epic tales, but was the first to write them down after they'd been passed down orally through the generations.

It's a radical theory that goes against deeply-entrenched conventional wisdom, and I don't know if it's ever been checked, but it has me intrigued.

[Checkmite]

It is interesting; but I'm not sure that Homer's tales were intended to describe the problems with the Sea People.

[Tumblehome]

Sorry, that wasn't what I meant. My mistake. I was only reminded of Vinci's theory when you wrote "in an almost Viking fashion". Vinci suggests the tales originated in the Baltic and told of events that happened there among the Scandinavians.

[Checkmite]

Ah, gotcha.

[MG1962]

I have a question (drum roll please lol) Easter Island has fascinated me since I can remember. I've read everything I can about the island, inhabitants, methods of errecting the statues etc

One element that has always intrigued me is the two distinct cultures present on the island. The long ears and the short ears, who ultimately fought a civil war etc.

I'm curious if any work has ever been done to identify if these were two distinct ethnic groups, or a cultural splitting of the same root stock. Example the long ears wore heavy ear rings to accentuate the look etc. And if there has ever been any genetic material retreaved that allowed for testing where the inhabitants orginiated from

Thanks

[Checkmite]

Here's the sole problem with that. The "warring cultures" scenario on Easter Island is evident only in the natives' orally-transmitted traditions. Since westerners have been visiting, the only people found on Easter Island have been typical Polynesians, and no direct evidence has been found which indicates two physically different groups of people living there at some point.

The legend narratives describe two peoples - "those who came before" and "those who came later and took over". Different European explorers have tried to record and make sense of the legends, but they haven't done a good job - their reports aren't consistent and often directly conflict. Looking them over, I can't even tell you for sure whether the "first people" or the "later people" were supposed to have built the statues - different reports say different things.

A big theory at one time was that the "ones who came before" were South Americans. Thor Heyerdahl (RIP) believed this was at least possible, because he found some quaint similarities between some Easter Island customs and some Inca customs. Others told him, "Silly Thor, there's no way the Incas could've gotten halfway across the ocean in their little riverboats!" Thor didn't like the sound of that, so he built a boat using primitive tools and materials, and sailed it from Peru to Polynesia, just to show 'em. He called his boat the "Kon-Tiki". Thor's experiment proved the possibility of such travel; however, the experiment had no effect on the likelihood of such travel (still somewhat unlikely), as Thor had the advantage of knowing exactly where he was going, and what kind of vessel it would take to get there; an advantage the Incas did not have.

ANYWAY, the notion is that the "first people" were South Americans, and the "later people" were Polynesians who came and killed them all. Again, possible - but no actual physical evidence.

As an aside, one thing about the native's histories that is consistent with physical evidence is "the tragedy which man hath wrought" - wholesale destruction of the environment. Whenever it was that humans first got to Easter Island, one of the first things they did was start chopping down trees. For houses and canoes, and moving around statues and such, you see. They chopped and they chopped and they chopped, until there were, for all intents and purposes, no trees left on the whole island. The whole of Easter Island is now a grassland, with none but imported palms growing hither and thither on it. The soil grew thin and eroded, and not much was left that could grow in it. So, the people battled over what was left. According to those narratives, the natives ran so low on food that they started eating each other. One author, Jared Diamond, reports being told by the natives that during this time, people would occasionally insult each other by saying things like "Bits of your mom are stuck between my teeth!" That's funny.

[Foolmewunz]

Joshua,
This is a terrific thread. I'm but a dilettante on these topics, but I have no qualms about reading and researching, so have been able to follow most of the discussions.
My particular question relates to the racial/genetic origins of the "first peoples" in the Pacific. Maybe this is just an indication that I really am a dilettante.
At one point, now I think totally disproved, I remember reading that the aboriginal populations in Polynesia, New Zealand, and even Taiwan were all of a Southeast Asian/Malay strain. Later, I read that there were different waves of migration, accounting for the differences.
The question, which I guess I should get to, is whether there's an authoritative study done on this - one that's generally accepted in the archaeological community (and/or especially in the anthropoligical community)?

[JohnChasWebb]

This is the first time I've heard of the "mirror image" concept in Egyptian cosmology; nevertheless, for the sake of argument I will assume that it's true.

In such case, the pyramids still do not accurately reflect the sky. The "Orion's belt" comparison does not work if you simply vertically "flip" the landscape, as it would if the mirror image theory were true. You also need to make a horizontal flip (from east to west). Alternately, you can take the map and rotate it 180 degrees to achieve the desired layout. Either way, a "mirror image" of the Giza Plateau does not match Orion's belt; additional terrain manipulation is required. Thus, I would dismiss the mirror image claim.
It is a two part puzzle.
Part 1 is the 'mirror image' and
the second part is to find the date and time that there is a match as reflected in the heavens.
One cannot make the comparison by looking at the present configuration but must analyze sky charts over hundreds (even thousands) of years (possibly) to find the (repeat) date and time that the pyramid configuration is 'mirroring'.
When the precise matching chart is located then (it would seem) that chart indicates the date and time (perhaps) that the pyramids commemorate which is probably some time approximating 10,500 BC which is the approximate time that the Sun 'precessed' (See, Precession of the Equinox) out of Virgo and into the 30th degree of Leo... or, celestially speaking, the time that the Sun was 'born' as a king (Leo) and born from a virgin (came out of Virgo into Leo to begin the Age of Leo).
This was not a Christian item but, perthaps, was incorporated, much later, into the Christian mythos.

[JohnChasWebb]

Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

I have a possible answer (pardon me, please, if I am intruding).
Background:
1) A 'midrash' is a story containing great spiritual/metaphysical truths taught as 'literal' to the masses. A contemporary example of this Santa Claus. i.e. be good and your goodness will lead to great rewards.
2) There is no reliable archaeological evidence (pottery chards, burials, etc.) to suggest that there was an exodus. (supposedly of approx. 600,000 people).
3) Nothing is mentioned in any histroical records of Egypt regarding the exodus and surely if such an event did happen then Egyptian history would have made mention of it.

The metaphysical underpinnings of the interpretation of the exodus is that Man is, in reality, a spiritual being who has become trapped in a material context that leads to death. As spiritual beings trapped on the material plane Man behaves as a slave to his possessions as well as his physical body.
Embracing the 10 commandments (Laws of Moses) begins the process of distilling (see, alchemy) or separating the consciousness from the imprisonment of the spirit in a temporal/material reality.
The 40 years in the desert is similar to the Christian 'purgatory' or purgation of the dysfunctional patterns that created the imprisonment and slavery in the first place. Usually this 'error' began by putting self before God in one's thinking.
Why else walk in a circle for 40 years except with the design of raising one generation that was utterly detached from material possessions? Who wants to carry 'stuff' around in the desert? every day, every day, every day...
I am not saying, here, that I believe this 'midrash' stuff. I am merely describing one possible interpretation in light of the utter lack of archaeological evidence indicating any such huge migration. It seems to be a story containing sublime metaphysical/spiritual truths taught as literal to the masses.
The Christian cosmology has the same problematic issue regarding the utter lack of archaeological evidence.
Note: No evidence is not proof that it didn't happen (triple negative!) .. there is simply no archaeological support.

[Checkmite]

The question, which I guess I should get to, is whether there's an authoritative study done on this - one that's generally accepted in the archaeological community (and/or especially in the anthropoligical community)?

Not one single study; more of an amalgamation or collation of numerous seperate studies and finds.

This is the best I can really do (http://www.pbs.org/wayfinders/polynesian2.html) as far as giving you a jump-off point. In the "ask the experts" and site credits links on that site, there are a whole lot of names that it might be worth doing some searching up on if you're more interested in this subject. The gist is that the earliest people identifiable as "Polynesian" first lived in and around New Guinea and started to go sailing around 1600 BCE. From that point, they expanded in fits and starts. The tracing of the Polynesian migration was done with the help of lapita - a unique form of pottery; the archaeological context in which it is found on an island helps determine the general time around which the island was first discovered and inhabited by the Polynesians. As the civilizations took root on their islands and began to grow independently, their ways of making lapita slowly changed in subtle ways, also independently of each other. Thus, when people from that island migrated to other islands, they brought along the newer form of lapita, and so we can tell not only when an island was inhabited, but from which region of the Pacific its migrants came.

[Checkmite]

It is a two part puzzle.
Part 1 is the 'mirror image' and
the second part is to find the date and time that there is a match as reflected in the heavens.
One cannot make the comparison by looking at the present configuration but must analyze sky charts over hundreds (even thousands) of years (possibly) to find the (repeat) date and time that the pyramid configuration is 'mirroring'.

No, you misunderstand. The "mirror image" of Giza does not resemble Orion's belt at all.

Let me explain. This is what Giza looks like now (from Google Earth):

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/giza1.jpg

I left the compass in for reference.

This is what Giza looks like when you flip it "vertically" (i.e., exchange north for south in a "mirror-like" fashion:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/gizaflip.jpg

See the problem? It still doesn't look like Orion's belt. In order to make it look like Orion's belt, you have to flip it yet again; this time horizontally (exchanging east for west), like this:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/gizaflippedagain.jpg

So, this isn't a matter of angles, it's a matter of Giza simply not being a "mirror image" of the sky.

Also, I do not believe the claim that Orion's belt "in 10,500 BC" resembles the angle of the pyramids at Giza (the flip-flop-flipped Giza, that is). I've heard the claim given many times; I've not seen it substantiated. So far as I know, nobody's made charts for "what the sky looked like in 10,500 BC", so I'm curious as to what the source is. A computer program would be a likely answer, but then - what computer program?

[MG1962]

Also, I do not believe the claim that Orion's belt "in 10,500 BC" resembles the angle of the pyramids at Giza (the flip-flop-flipped Giza, that is). I've heard the claim given many times; I've not seen it substantiated. So far as I know, nobody's made charts for "what the sky looked like in 10,500 BC", so I'm curious as to what the source is. A computer program would be a likely answer, but then - what computer program?

There are a large number of sky charting programs that can do this for you, they will even include proper motion of the stars, and residual movements. Example 10,000 years ago Polaris was not the pole star. The Earth has a 15,000 year wobble in it's rotation.

http://www.hnsky.org/software.htm

http://www.stargazing.net/astropc/index.html

These (In my opinion) Are the best of the free programs out there

Mind you, I can save you the time. Orions belt does not match, never did. The offset of the structures was determined by the geology of the area not some master plan

PS - thanks for the response to the Easter Island question, very much appreciated you taking the time

[Foolmewunz]

Thanx Joshua,

I've bookmarked the site for leisure reading. They've also got a very informative game on the site. Great for upper grade school/lower teens (heck, it taught me a couple of things!).


http://www.pbs.org/wayfinders/game.html#

[jimbob]

This article in "The Engineer (http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/299582/Secrets+of+a+lost+world.htm)" might be slightly interesting to readers of this thread.

A conventional theory for the construction of the Great Pyramid, with a timescale of about 20 years.

Jim

[MG1962]

This article in "The Engineer (http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/299582/Secrets+of+a+lost+world.htm)" might be slightly interesting to readers of this thread.

A conventional theory for the construction of the Great Pyramid, with a timescale of about 20 years.

Jim


I would not call it conventional, but a fascinating theory all the same. And just odd enough while being practical, to actually be the answer

[Checkmite]

Mind you, I can save you the time. Orions belt does not match, never did. The offset of the structures was determined by the geology of the area not some master plan

No prob. However, if I wanted to be all persnickety, I would point out that I don't believe the pyramids are even offset. Oh, they look offset because they're different sizes. But, it seems to me that the pyramids were actually built in a straight line:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/gizaplan.jpg

[MG1962]

No prob. However, if I wanted to be all persnickety, I would point out that I don't believe the pyramids are even offset. Oh, they look offset because they're different sizes. But, it seems to me that the pyramids were actually built in a straight line:



And I would see your persnikerty and raise you an Ancient Astronaut in pointing out that as measured through the apex, they are not aligned ;)

It will cost you at least a Von Danieken to raise me from here lol

[Checkmite]

It will cost you at least a Von Danieken to raise me from here lol

Not so fast! I could be curmudgeonly, and point out that while the Egyptians were building the third (little) pyramid, the second pyramid would've completely blocked out all view of the first pyramid behind it, thus making it impossible to tell for certain whether the apices were lined up; making aligning the corners the only practical option. So ha!

[sophia8]

It is a two part puzzle.
Part 1 is the 'mirror image' and
the second part is to find the date and time that there is a match as reflected in the heavens.
One cannot make the comparison by looking at the present configuration but must analyze sky charts over hundreds (even thousands) of years (possibly) to find the (repeat) date and time that the pyramid configuration is 'mirroring'.
When the precise matching chart is located then (it would seem) that chart indicates the date and time (perhaps) that the pyramids commemorate which is probably some time approximating 10,500 BC which is the approximate time that the Sun 'precessed' (See, Precession of the Equinox) out of Virgo and into the 30th degree of Leo... or, celestially speaking, the time that the Sun was 'born' as a king (Leo) and born from a virgin (came out of Virgo into Leo to begin the Age of Leo).
This was not a Christian item but, perthaps, was incorporated, much later, into the Christian mythos.The present mythology and stories of the constellations are purely Western, derived from Greek-Babylonian mythologies. Other cultures have quite different sky-mythologies; for instance, the Japanese have seen the Orion constellation as either a hand-drum or a kimono-clad woman. It is extremely doubtful if any culture around in 10,000BC, let alone the Egyptians, saw the same patterns and myths in the stars that we in the West do today.
You also seem to be a bit confused about precession. In precession, the Sun doesn't move "into" anything; what happens is that the constellations in which the Sun rises at the Spring Equinox slowly shift.
I don't know if the Egyptians were ever aware of precession, but the Spring Equinox wasn't all that important to them anyway. For them, the biggest sacred festival of the year came at the Nile rising in July, which was heralded by the movements of Sirius.

[MG1962]

Not so fast! I could be curmudgeonly, and point out that while the Egyptians were building the third (little) pyramid, the second pyramid would've completely blocked out all view of the first pyramid behind it, thus making it impossible to tell for certain whether the apices were lined up; making aligning the corners the only practical option. So ha!

LOL I actually had to look curmudgeonly up, well done. I am going to have to use that in a sentence today. But see if they had got one of the Atarean spaceships to hover over the middle pyramid they would have been able to accurately survey the position of the small pyramid by laser etching the mid points into the rock :boggled:

Seriously man, do you really think Stargate is fiction?????

[MG1962]

The present mythology and stories of the constellations are purely Western, derived from Greek-Babylonian mythologies. Other cultures have quite different sky-mythologies; for instance, the Japanese have seen the Orion constellation as either a hand-drum or a kimono-clad woman. It is extremely doubtful if any culture around in 10,000BC, let alone the Egyptians, saw the same patterns and myths in the stars that we in the West do today.


Thats an excellent point actually and one that always makes me chuckle when you see people ascribing Western cosmolgy myths onto Eastern ruins. What I have found fascinating is the number of non Western cultures that refer to the Pleiades star cluster as a group of women or seven sisters

[boloboffin]

Not so fast! I could be curmudgeonly, and point out that while the Egyptians were building the third (little) pyramid, the second pyramid would've completely blocked out all view of the first pyramid behind it, thus making it impossible to tell for certain whether the apices were lined up; making aligning the corners the only practical option. So ha!

Sure about that? ;)

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/gizaplan.jpg

[Tez]

Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?


In this book,
http://www.amazon.com/Best-American-Science-Nature-Writing/dp/061872222X/ref=sr_1_2/103-0461277-0516626?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179481097&sr=1-2
which unfortunately I've lent to someone, a very primitive amazonian tribe/people group is discussed. IIRC one of the interesting things is that they don't seem to have religious beliefs and rituals (according to the only guy who has had regular contact with them).

[Checkmite]

Sure about that? ;)


Yes, as evidenced by the fact that the corners are lined up and the apices aren't.

[boloboffin]

Yes, as evidenced by the fact that the corners are lined up and the apices aren't.

Silly. I was trying to point out that the two apices are roughly lined up with the smaller pyramid's opposite corner.

[Checkmite]

Silly. I was trying to point out that the two apices are roughly lined up with the smaller pyramid's opposite corner.


I know - but I've got all three of the southeastern corners lined up. Three-of-a-kind always beats a pair & a high card.

[MG1962]

I know - but I've got all three of the southeastern corners lined up. Three-of-a-kind always beats a pair & a high card.

okkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy then, does this mean you are advancing the theory that the pyramids where a giant slot machine, and I spose the sphyinx was the cashiers booth

Ahhhh huh

[Checkmite]

Nope. I'm advancing the theory that the Egyptians intended to line up the southeast corners, not the apices. :p

[boloboffin]

Here's what I'm getting at, Joshua. Perhaps we're looking at an ancient compromise here. The third pyramid may have been built to align its southwest corner with the other two, but also have its northwest corner aligned with the apices. Maybe they just didn't want to get into another one of those monstrosities, and found a way with sacred geometry to lighten the load.

[Checkmite]

You think lay geometry wouldn't have been able to do it?

[boloboffin]

You think lay geometry wouldn't have been able to do it?

You know what? Forget it. I'm really impressed by your line on a map.

[Checkmite]

Satellite photo.

[boloboffin]

:bigclap

[Checkmite]

The fact is, that the idea of "sacred geometry" first arose in Greece, quite post-4th-Dynasty Egypt. While the Egyptians may have had such a notion, there's as of yet no compelling reason to believe they did. In any case, the Giza Plateau certainly doesn't give us reason to believe they did; even the most basic and earliest discovered principle first attributed to "sacred geometry" - to wit, the Golden Ratio - was not used in arranging the shapes and locations of the pyramids, as their bases are square, not rectangular (which gives them a ratio of 1:1).

[boloboffin]

You drew a line. I thought that it was pretty nifty and I drew a line. You started being snotty to me. Why, I don't know.

You find it significant that a line connects all three southwest corners. You find it laughable that a line connects the two apices and a northwest corner. Why, I don't know.

All I do know is that the game you're playing, I can't win. So I'm done with it.

[Checkmite]

You find it significant that a line connects all three southwest corners. You find it laughable that a line connects the two apices and a northwest corner. Why, I don't know.


Not laughable, simply less significant. One could line up three pyramid's corners because one wants them to be in a straight line (and they are). One could line up two pyramids' apices with one pyramid's corner because...there is no reason why.

[Oualawouzou]

Am I alone who read the last 15ish posts and think "non-issue"?

[Checkmite]

It would seem. :p

[Jon.]

Am I alone who read the last 15ish posts and think "non-issue"?

No.

[Lensman]

Hi Joshua, great thread you've got going here.

How about your opinion on this?

Prince Madoc (http://www.tylwythteg.com/fortmount/Ftmount.html)

[Big Les]

Hi Joshua, great thread you've got going here.

How about your opinion on this?

Prince Madoc (http://www.tylwythteg.com/fortmount/Ftmount.html)

If I might pass comment, though this is not one I'd heard before, that article seems to consist of fitting the evidence to the legend, rather than the other way around. That way wishful thinking and pseudohistory lie, I'm afraid. From my most frantic Googling, there doesn't seem to be any linguistic or other evidence that can be verified - it's all hearsay. I'd like to see the primary sources to get some handle on the context and whether or not they've been removed from it for the purposes of those wishing the story to be true.

But look at Vinland - it's in theory quite possible. However, as most here realise, there needs to be a body of evidence put together beyond the anecdotes. If people feel particularly strongly, some genetic testing and archaeological survey work in the most likely areas would seem to be in order. It looks like some have tried to do this; this (http://www.rense.com/general28/weks.htm) Alan Wilson chap for one. I'm not familiar with his work, but having seen his body of literature (almost exclusively aimed at proving an historical King Arthur), and read a critical Amazon review (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/customer-reviews/0552144894/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/026-3010744-8958058?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=266239) (8th from the top) that shows him to have entirely misrepresented his two key sources for "The Quest for the Real King Arthur" (and his clear misattribution of the sword on the cover as being of the correct period), I'm calling "woo" on him too. It's a familiar pattern:

1) Start with fondly held myth
2) Construct theory sans evidence
3) Look for superficially convincing but entirely irrelevant sources
4) Misrepresent these and rely on them to prove your theory, hoping that readers will be impressed by the reference alone.
5) Get referenced yourself, keeping the whole dog-and-pony show going.

They do it with Robin Hood, with the Holy Grail, the Ark, Jesus' tomb, and so on. Believers are content to be able to point vaguely at some evidence, whether or not it stands up to scrutiny. They want to eat their cake and have it too - belief and mysticism with a scientific basis. They dislike science but recognise the need for some sort of credibility. I'm sure most are sincere; they just get so close to their pet project that they "see" patterns and significance where none exists (or at least, it can't be demonstrated objectively that it does). Many also lack the traditional academic background that might help them be more objective about it.

I realise I'm looking more at his Arthurian stuff here, but I haven't found any reference to any published and peer-reviewed work (field reports etc) on his Madoc work.

Another cited (http://www.madoc1170.com/) "authority" re Madoc seems to be Prof. Bernard Knight, a fiction writer. He was a professor of pathology, not of history or archaeology, and doesn't seem to have researched the subject outside of his speculative fiction book. The earliest historical sources were written four hundred years after the fact, whilst the other evidence (http://www.madoc1170.com/evidence.htm) is, as mentioned, anecdotal. The reports of native americans speaking "Welsh" are interesting, but can surely be explained alternatively by an unfamiliarity with local language on the part of the Westerners. Follow-up reports could be generated by going in with the story in mind and asking leading questions; unintentionally putting words in the mouth of the locals - anecdotes are not evidence, especially after this amount of time has elapsed.

The similarity of the Mandon indian boats to Welsh coracles is interesting also, but hardly evidence. Again it smacks of what you might call historical pareidolia - seeing patterns and similarities where none need exist. In this case, the two designs are an example of convergent technology - similar solutions to similar problems that emerge in separate locations (such as stone tools). Does the (Asian) Indian coracle prove that the Welsh visited there also?

As with Arthur, the pseudos seem to like pulling the old identity switcheroo when doubt is cast upon existing theories (the old goalpost-moving routine) - one site (http://web.archive.org/web/20040810224053/www.realhistoryonline.com/comet/12.htm) linked in 2004 articles about the Wilson claim held that the Madoc that found America was not the 12th century one at all!

On a different tack, maybe these guys (http://madog.rio.edu/English/default.htm)could help you establish just what historical basis there might be for the story? I fear none, and suspect Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc) has the bottom line on this one:

The first written account of Madoc's story is in George Peckham's A True Report of the late Discoveries of the Newfound Landes (1583). It was picked up in David Powel's Historie of Cambria (1584) and Richard Hakluyt's The Principall Navigations, Voiages and Discoveries of the English Nation (1589). Such stories served to bolster British claims in the New World versus those of Spain; John Dee went so far as to assert that Brutus of Britain and King Arthur as well as Madoc had conquered lands in the Americas and therefore their heir Elizabeth I of England had a priority claim there. The Welsh Indians were not attested until over a century later. Morgan Jones' tract is the first account, and was printed by The Gentleman's Magazine in 1740, launching a slew of publications on the subject. There is no genetic or archaeological evidence that the Mandans are related to the Cymry, however, and John Evans and Lewis and Clark reported they had found no Welsh Indians. Descendants of the Mandan are still alive today; the tribe was decimated by a smallpox epidemic in 1837-1838 and banded with the nearby Hidatsa and Arikara.

[Checkmite]

Hi Joshua, great thread you've got going here.

How about your opinion on this?

Prince Madoc (http://www.tylwythteg.com/fortmount/Ftmount.html)

Well, a couple of things. Firstly, there seems to be no evidence among the Welsh that there was ever a son of the Welsh king Owain Gwynedd named "Madoc" or any derivation thereof. Barring that, the author of that article seems to make a few mistakes, most notably in apparently mistaking the Cherokee Rock Village of Lookout Mountain (a spectacular but natural rock formation) for a Welsh fort, and insisting that things like the "wall" at Fort Mountain, Georgia and the Old Stone Fort in Tennessee, which are relatively simple structures and are considered by the archaeological community at large to be Native American in origin, display a design "too complicated" for the native tribes to have constructed. This is preposterous, really. Consider, for instance, that the 800-foot-long wall atop Fort Mountain is really just a long collection of indescriminately piled rocks a couple of feet high.

The article takes blatant liberties with history, like noting that the "Louis and Clark" [sic] expedition encountered the remnant of the white, Welsh-speaking tribe. The fact is that the Lewis & Clark outfit was aware of the legend and made an attempt to locate these people as part of the mission of the expedition, but pointedly never found them. The expedition was also on the lookout for wooly mammoths and one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, and didn't find them either.

I'm thinking this "Madoc" likely never existed.

[Bluegill]

The Falls of the Ohio State Park interpretive center, near here, has a large Madoc display. I should mention that it does say that it is unestablished legend, and I want to emphasize that it's an Indiana state park, not a Kentucky state park, thank you very much.

We won't discuss the new Creationist museum that graces my state.

[Lensman]

I tend to agree about the legend of Prince Madoc, I just thought it would be an interesting diversion like the cult theories of Atlantis, Ancient Astronauts etc.

[Big Les]

Definitely! It's an interesting one I hadn't heard about - thanks for bringing it up. There's always a strong political/nationalist bent on these national hero stories of course.

[Checkmite]

I tend to agree about the legend of Prince Madoc, I just thought it would be an interesting diversion like the cult theories of Atlantis, Ancient Astronauts etc.


Oh, absolutely. In fact, this legend could be considered more interesting, on account of its age. "Atlantis" and Von Daniken's space-gods didn't come to popular awareness until the mid-1900's. The white-Indian legend has been around since colonization began in America - with individuals (typically missionaries) returning from travel and reporting to have found a Native American tribe which spoke the missionary's own language, making the missionary's job easier. The rumors propagated and over time began to assimilate into a mythos, with the lucky European language being Welsh. Aside from the single-person rumors, no instances of actual contact managed to come to light.

Also of note is that "Madoc" does not entirely own the "white Indians" legend. Way back when the rumors first began, it was believed that the white Indians were remnants or descendants of a certain English colony which had been established at Roanoke, North Carolina and subsequently vanished without a trace. As with Madoc's Welsh, it was believed that the Roanoke colonists were eventually "absorbed" into the aboriginal population, which accounted for the fair-skinned Native Americans. Unfortunately, archaeology has as yet been unable to shed any decisive light on the Roanoke mystery.

[Big Les]

Roanoke! That's what I was thinking of when I was reading the Madoc stuff about "white indians" - I'd forgotten all about it.

Us white folk seem to be obsessed with the idea of whites infiltrating other populations.

[Damien Evans]

post deleted

[Lensman]

Just thought I'd lighten the mood a bit

Australopithecus Barbie - Refuted (Harvey Rowe)
To start with, a classic; this relates to a reply sent to the late Dr Herman Smith after he submitted an artefact to the Smithsonian Institute. Unfortunately it is apparently an entirely fictional fabrication by one Harvey Rowe and various versions now abound.

Dear Dr. Smith,
Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labelled "93211-D, layer seven, next to the clothesline post-Hominid skull." We have given this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you that we disagree with your theory that represents conclusive proof of the presence of Early Man in Belize two million years ago.

Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll, of the variety that one of our staff, who has small children, believes to be "Malibu Barbie." It is evident that you have given a great deal of thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that those of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe to come to contradiction with your findings.

However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of the specimen which might have tipped you off to its modern origin:

1. The material is moulded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are typically fossilized bone.
2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately nine cubic centimetres, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified proto-hominids.
3. The dentition pattern evident on the skull is more consistent with the common domesticated dog than it is with the ravenous man-eating Pliocene clams you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time.

This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much detail, let us say that:

A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has chewed on.
B. Clams don't have teeth.

It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request to have the specimen carbon-dated. This is partially due to the heavy load our lab must bear in its normal operation, and partly due to carbon-dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956 AD, and carbon-dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results.

Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National Science Foundation with the concept of assigning your specimen the scientific name Australopithecus spiff-arino. Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it might be Latin.

However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a Hominid fossil, it is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work you seem to accumulated here so effortlessly. You should know that our Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display of the specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in your digs at the site you have discovered in your San Pedro back yard.

We eagerly anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it. We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories surrounding the iron rod that makes the excellent juvenile tyrannosaurus rex femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench.

Yours in Science,
Otis T. Thudpucker
Chief Archaeologist

[ReligionStudent]

Hey, just reading this thread for the first time, thought I would throw a book suggestion out there to everyone interested in this Archaeological Fantasies edited by G. Fagan. Its quite good in dealing with theory and case studies of pseudoarchaeology.

[Foolmewunz]

Roanoke! That's what I was thinking of when I was reading the Madoc stuff about "white indians" - I'd forgotten all about it.

Us white folk seem to be obsessed with the idea of whites infiltrating other populations.

I thought Horace Miner had established that the preponderance of evidence was that the Nacirema were the tribe in question. ;)

http://spot.pcc.edu/~rwolf/miner.html

[Lensman]

LOL

I've read that - very funny. :D

[RebeccaBradley]

Hi guys, nice to see this thread revitalized.

I wrote and taught a continuing education course on "Alternative Archaeology" at the University of Calgary last year, a most interesting experience. My students ranged from hardnosed skeptics (like myself) to hardnosed Hancock devotees, Velikovskians, and even a six-day creationist - and yet somehow, it worked quite well. Anyway, I thought you guys might be interested in the annotated reading list I gave out, which is by no means complete (and is oriented towards the topics I was discussing). My aim was partly to tell people about what archaeology IS, so they'd have a better chance of recognizing what it ISN'T - hence a few general archaeology-for-beginners books on the list. Here it is:

Bahn, Paul
Archaeology: A very short introduction. Oxford University Press, 1996. Short is right – about 100 witty, succinct pages of everything you really need to know about archaeology.

Feder, Kenneth
Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology. Mayfield Publishing Company. Many editions, because used as textbook in critical-thinking modules in undergraduate courses. Clear and fun.

Fagan, Garrett (Ed.)
Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public. Routledge, 2006. Very thorough, sensible, and wide-ranging; alas, also hugely expensive.

James, Peter, and Nick Thorpe
Ancient Inventions. Ballantine, New York, 1994. Solid but hugely entertaining compendium of surprising technology from the ancient world. A good antidote to the pseuds’ claim that the ancients needed alien or LC help to work their marvels.
Ancient Mysteries. Ballantine Books, New York, 1999. Compellingly combines a skeptical assessment of alternative archaeology, with an appreciation of continuing archaeological mysteries. Clear, informative, very readable.

King, David
Finding Atlantis: A True Story of Genius, Madness, and an Extraordinary Quest for a Lost World. Harmony Books, NY, 2005. The fascinating story of Olof Rudbeck, 17th century Swedish scholar; shows how even the best and brightest can persuade themselves to believe what they want to believe.

Lapatin, Kenneth D.S.
Mysteries of the Snake Goddess: Art, Desire, and the Forging of History. Houghton Mifflin, 2002. Part detective story, part critique, wholly fascinating. The story of the probable forgery of the Boston Goddess, and the wider issue of Minoan “reconstruction”.

Lawton, Ian, and Chris Ogilvie-Herald
Giza: The Truth. The People, Politics, and History Behind the World's Most Famous Archaeological Site. Invisible Cities, 2001. Well-researched critical review of both alternative and academic views on Giza, by two “alternative” scholars. I don’t agree with them all the way, but it’s an excellent book.

Ryan, Donald
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Lost Civilizations. An enjoyable introduction to how archaeologists think, and not really for idiots at all.

Williams, Stephen
Fantastic Archaeology: The Wild Side of North American Prehistory. U.Pennsylvania Press, 1991. Naturally dated about recent research, but a valuable and sometimes hilarious history of the search for the “first Americans”.


WEBSITES OF INTEREST

http://www.hallofmaat.com/
In the Hall of Maat. A lively forum, with sometimes intense discussion of archaeological issues. A good way to keep current. Also an archive of valuable research papers on alternative archaeology, geoarchaeology and general archaeology. The main focus is Egypt, but all areas are covered. The forum has recently been split into general and specifically Egyptological discussions.

http://www.1421exposed.com/
A clearing-house for papers analyzing and debunking Gavin Menzies’ 1421: The Year China Discovered America. Also has a very revealing section on Paul Chiasson’s Cape Breton theory.

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/
Very useful links compiled by Doug Weller, one of the moderators on the Hall of Maat website (above). Will lead you to just about any topic you want to read about, and many you didn’t know existed.

[ReligionStudent]

Hi guys, nice to see this thread revitalized.

I wrote and taught a continuing education course on "Alternative Archaeology" at the University of Calgary last year, a most interesting experience. My students ranged from hardnosed skeptics (like myself) to hardnosed Hancock devotees, Velikovskians, and even a six-day creationist - and yet somehow, it worked quite well. Anyway, I thought you guys might be interested in the annotated reading list I gave out, which is by no means complete (and is oriented towards the topics I was discussing). My aim was partly to tell people about what archaeology IS, so they'd have a better chance of recognizing what it ISN'T - hence a few general archaeology-for-beginners books on the list. Here it is:

Bahn, Paul
Archaeology: A very short introduction. Oxford University Press, 1996. Short is right – about 100 witty, succinct pages of everything you really need to know about archaeology.

Feder, Kenneth
Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology. Mayfield Publishing Company. Many editions, because used as textbook in critical-thinking modules in undergraduate courses. Clear and fun.

Fagan, Garrett (Ed.)
Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public. Routledge, 2006. Very thorough, sensible, and wide-ranging; alas, also hugely expensive.

James, Peter, and Nick Thorpe
Ancient Inventions. Ballantine, New York, 1994. Solid but hugely entertaining compendium of surprising technology from the ancient world. A good antidote to the pseuds’ claim that the ancients needed alien or LC help to work their marvels.
Ancient Mysteries. Ballantine Books, New York, 1999. Compellingly combines a skeptical assessment of alternative archaeology, with an appreciation of continuing archaeological mysteries. Clear, informative, very readable.

King, David
Finding Atlantis: A True Story of Genius, Madness, and an Extraordinary Quest for a Lost World. Harmony Books, NY, 2005. The fascinating story of Olof Rudbeck, 17th century Swedish scholar; shows how even the best and brightest can persuade themselves to believe what they want to believe.

Lapatin, Kenneth D.S.
Mysteries of the Snake Goddess: Art, Desire, and the Forging of History. Houghton Mifflin, 2002. Part detective story, part critique, wholly fascinating. The story of the probable forgery of the Boston Goddess, and the wider issue of Minoan “reconstruction”.

Lawton, Ian, and Chris Ogilvie-Herald
Giza: The Truth. The People, Politics, and History Behind the World's Most Famous Archaeological Site. Invisible Cities, 2001. Well-researched critical review of both alternative and academic views on Giza, by two “alternative” scholars. I don’t agree with them all the way, but it’s an excellent book.

Ryan, Donald
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Lost Civilizations. An enjoyable introduction to how archaeologists think, and not really for idiots at all.

Williams, Stephen
Fantastic Archaeology: The Wild Side of North American Prehistory. U.Pennsylvania Press, 1991. Naturally dated about recent research, but a valuable and sometimes hilarious history of the search for the “first Americans”.


WEBSITES OF INTEREST

http://www.hallofmaat.com/
In the Hall of Maat. A lively forum, with sometimes intense discussion of archaeological issues. A good way to keep current. Also an archive of valuable research papers on alternative archaeology, geoarchaeology and general archaeology. The main focus is Egypt, but all areas are covered. The forum has recently been split into general and specifically Egyptological discussions.

http://www.1421exposed.com/
A clearing-house for papers analyzing and debunking Gavin Menzies’ 1421: The Year China Discovered America. Also has a very revealing section on Paul Chiasson’s Cape Breton theory.

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/
Very useful links compiled by Doug Weller, one of the moderators on the Hall of Maat website (above). Will lead you to just about any topic you want to read about, and many you didn’t know existed.

I found Fagan's at a Borders near me and found it quite afordable as far as texts used in classes go.

[RebeccaBradley]

Thanks for the tip, RS. I'll have another look for Fagan's book. Alas, I've never seen it in a bookstore in Canada, and it was marked at about 150 bucks on amazon. I read a borrowed copy. :(

[ReligionStudent]

Thanks for the tip, RS. I'll have another look for Fagan's book. Alas, I've never seen it in a bookstore in Canada, and it was marked at about 150 bucks on amazon. I read a borrowed copy. :(

Try this link http://www.amazon.com/Archaeological-Fantasies-Pseudoarchaeology-Misrepresents-Misleads/dp/0415305934/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-7753749-5953461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182464445&sr=8-2 for 150 you are probably looking at the hard cover and not eh softbacked.

[RebeccaBradley]

:) :) :) I checked the amazon.ca site - even cheaper! So now I'm going back through my wish-list, to see what other books have come down since I last decided I couldn't afford them. Thanks again, RS.

[JQH]

A question for the Cult Archaeologist:

I'm currently reading Declare by Tim Powers and have just got to the point where Hale reaches the meteorite craters in the Empty Quarter of the Arabian Peninsula. In the novel, these craters are the site of a city which was destroyed by said meteorites.

I'm sure I've read elsewhere that this region was once fertile and inhabitted but I can't remember where. Anyway, the question is: Is there any evidence that there was once a civilisation in this region?

[jimbob]

Urbar/Iram of the pillars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar)?


ETA:
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/exhibits/ubar/ubar_0.html

[JQH]

Interesting links. Thanks.