Their Return

[BTMO]

I am not suggesting we try shooting at them...

My beliefs about them are based on their actual behavior toward humanity, recently.

I created a petition, and posted a link within this thread. I myself haven't even signed it yet, as I think you have to be a facebook member. I will likely set up a more user-friendly petition, and then begin an earnest endeavor to collect signatures.

I am just guessing you won't be part of the undersigned?


This the sticking point. There is no "them". There is no solid evidence for them. There are anecdotes, most of which can be explained very easily by simple misidentification of "them", and the remaining stories can (at worst) be resolved by simply asking what else might have been seen.

NONE of the stories make any sense (if taken at face value), many are contradictory, and all are of a vanishly low probability of actually describing a visitation by anything non-human.

[King of the Americas]

This the sticking point. There is no "them". There is no solid evidence for them. There are anecdotes...

...


There WAS no solid evidence for bioluminicent fish. Then we sent a guy to the bottom of the ocean where guess what? HE SAW GLOWING FISH.

His 'anecdote' was dismissed as a hallucination potentially caused by the pressure.

The sticking point is REALLY science's inability to process first hand accounts of undocumented realities, and instead writing people who have witnessed 'unknown' things as suffering from a lapse in judgement.

I am telling you, they exist.

Dismissing my report is a bad idea if you are interested in the truth.

[GeeMack]

I am telling you, they exist.

Dismissing my report is a bad idea if you are interested in the truth.


But lest anyone forget, this is a game of just-pretend as clearly outlined in the opening post.

[Marduk]

There WAS no solid evidence for bioluminicent fish. Then we sent a guy to the bottom of the ocean where guess what? HE SAW GLOWING FISH.

His 'anecdote' was dismissed as a hallucination cause by the pressure.

Don't suppose you have a link for that either do you, just another unsubstantiated claim based on something you read but have forgotten the details of isn't it.

I'm guessing its loosely based on the claim made for Alexander the Great, that at the siege of Tyre, in 332 BCE, he had "a very fine barrel made entirely of white glass" and that he and his two companions were stunned by what they saw by the bright lights emanating from the diving machine. Alexander is quoted as saying "...the world is damned and lost. The large and powerful fish devour the small fry."

see there the fish werent bioluminescent, it was the machine that had the light source

so once again, we're seeing how good your memory and understanding of basic facts fails at every turn

what a crock
:p

[BTMO]

There WAS no solid evidence for bioluminicent fish. Then we sent a guy to the bottom of the ocean where guess what? HE SAW GLOWING FISH.

His 'anecdote' was dismissed as a hallucination potentially caused by the pressure.

The sticking point is REALLY science's inability to process first hand accounts of undocumented realities, and instead writing people who have witnessed 'unknown' things as suffering from a lapse in judgement.

I am telling you, they exist.

Dismissing my report is a bad idea if you are interested in the truth.

But... you haven't reported anything - apart from vague assertions that you have proof.

[Marduk]

But... you haven't reported anything - apart from vague assertions that you have proof.

to be fair, he has misreported a lot, in a woo's eyes that counts for something
:rolleyes:

[bruto]

There WAS no solid evidence for bioluminicent fish. Then we sent a guy to the bottom of the ocean where guess what? HE SAW GLOWING FISH.

His 'anecdote' was dismissed as a hallucination potentially caused by the pressure.

The sticking point is REALLY science's inability to process first hand accounts of undocumented realities, and instead writing people who have witnessed 'unknown' things as suffering from a lapse in judgement.

I am telling you, they exist.

Dismissing my report is a bad idea if you are interested in the truth.

That's a bizarre analogy to use here, since science has shown, in this very instance, a conspicuous ability to process accounts of bioluminescent fish, by going down and finding them, collecting them, naming them, and so forth. We now all know that they exist, and owing to science's reluctance to take first hand accounts as fact without further investigation, we can trust that those fish do actually exist outside the imagination.

I am always amazed at the willingness of people promoting the unknown to provide examples of previously doubted phenomena that have passed the test that their own unknown has never passed, as if joining the company of the doubted confers some sort of honorary existence on anything.

[Marduk]

That's a bizarre analogy to use here,

Its not an analogy, its just an example of Kings inability to remember details
he first made this claim in february 2010 having just watched UFO files, episode : Deep Sea UFOs

I called him on it then and he offered this as evidence
http://www.productivitydevelopment.com/26%20Deep%20Sea%20Explore.pdf
from here
It was September 1932, and William Beebe was going down in the waters of Bermuda to a depth of 2,200 feet. A telephone line linked his tiny craft to the ship above. From there his voice would be broadcast to America by the National Broadcasting Company. Just as the ascent began Beebe saw two barracuda-shaped fish slowly swim past, each about six feet long, with
large eyes and numerous luminescent teeth. A string of twenty bluish lights ran along their sides, and additional lights hung from long whiplike protrusions below them.http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5573381#post5573381

if you read the pdf you'll see its an account of William Beebes first descent in a diving bell
you'll notice that it makes no mention of
1. there being no evidence of bioluminscent fish up til then, in fact they were known in the ancient greek period
2. that anyone dismissed Beebe's claims
3. that anyone mentioned pressure being responsible
4. that the glowing fish were spotted in the deep, it actually says "Just as the ascent began Beebe saw two barracuda-shaped fish slowly swim past", as Barracuda are pelagic and not benthic fish thats hardly surprising

still, this is just more evidence that KotA is happy to misreport facts when it suits him and to lie about them when they don't

because as he's already claimed recently that his memory of events is not at fault we can't believe that can we
of course its not what he was saying last year, last year he was saying this
My memory IS really awful, sometimes.

maybe he forgot how bad his memory is, that could happen
:p

if you follow the previous conversation back further you'd see that his original claim was that the first person down in a diving bell claimed to have seen underwater lights, he was attempting to use that claim to add weight to his idea that the non-aliens live underwater
so no matter which way you look at it, its complete bs.

[Zanders]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8660940.stm

Theres another of the things youve based your belief on shown to be utterly wrong
:p

Your beliefs about them is based on crackpot woo ufo sites and your lucid imagination and need to fabricate evidence and lie to people

your credibility doesn't exist at this forum, that you think you have some is just more evidence that youre wrong
:D


Shhh, don't bring actual science in to this.

[Marcus]

You've missed my point. While I don't believe in aliens, I do conclude that there is something intelligent in our heavens, that isn't us.

The historical record is littered with tales and pictures of E.T's or heavenly agents.

They have always been 'up there', and I hold that they may have even evolved here, long ago, and simply ascended to the heavens.
Oh, I got your point, I know you still believe in heavenly agents, or domestic E.T.s, or whatever you want to call them. I was giving you partial credit for not believing in aliens.

I am curious about your belief system, though. Where are these E.T.s located? Near Earth space, the moon, perhaps the asteriods? I assume they must be somewhere in the solar system to qualify as local.

[Stray Cat]

That's a bizarre analogy to use here, since science has shown, in this very instance, a conspicuous ability to process accounts of bioluminescent fish, by going down and finding them, collecting them, naming them, and so forth. We now all know that they exist, and owing to science's reluctance to take first hand accounts as fact without further investigation, we can trust that those fish do actually exist outside the imagination.

Indeed.

I imagine that instead of actually going to find and examine the fish and accurately report their descriptions, habitats, etc. KotA would have suggested that the scientists all sat on the beach with a 'moment seaward to invite the glowing fish to ascend from the deep'

[King of the Americas]

But... you haven't reported anything - apart from vague assertions that you have proof.

I have 'reported' non-human controlled star-like objects.

[King of the Americas]

... We now all know that they exist, and owing to science's reluctance to take first hand accounts as fact without further investigation, we can trust that those fish do actually exist outside the imagination.

I am always amazed at the willingness of people promoting the unknown to provide examples of previously doubted phenomena that have passed the test that their own unknown has never passed, as if joining the company of the doubted confers some sort of honorary existence on anything.

They've ALWAYS existed. Our awareness of them began when the first person saw them, except that the awareness stayed with the initial reporter AND those who took his sighting as truth, and did not penetrate the walls of science.

'I' am amazed that you are still ignoring the heart of the argument here.

Dismissing anecdotes of unknown entities is STUPID.

Saying that someone couldn't have possibly seen what they propose, because said entity is presently unknown to science, won't lead to new discoveries.

[Stray Cat]

Saying that someone couldn't have possibly seen what they propose, because said entity is presently unknown to science, won't lead to new discoveries.
No one is saying that though.
What we are saying is that your assertions about the origin of the lights you saw are far beyond the evidence you have to support them.

[GeeMack]

I have 'reported' non-human controlled star-like objects.


No. You have reported, in a variety of versions, what you believe to be non-human controlled star-like objects. And even at that, you can't seem to make your description actually match the characteristics of stars. This whole thing is a sham. Not a drop of truth to it from the word go.

[King of the Americas]

Shhh, don't bring actual science in to this.

Especially when it is irrelevant to the issue at hand...

Although, I must say I am not at all surprised that there were some sexy Neanderthals that managed to hook up with our Sapien ancestors. Their existence overlapped by like 10,000 years, after all.

And this 'overlap' is what is important. The Sapiens took off while the Neanderthals pretty much died off.

I DON'T think the 'one drop rule' applies here. We aren't Neanderthals.

The nod went to the Sapiens, some of which dabbled in the horizontal arts with a few Neanderthals.

[King of the Americas]

...

I am curious about your belief system, though. Where are these E.T.s located? Near Earth space, the moon, perhaps the asteriods? I assume they must be somewhere in the solar system to qualify as local.

Where we can't and or aren't looking...I presume.

[King of the Americas]

Indeed.

I imagine that instead of actually going to find and examine the fish and accurately report their descriptions, habitats, etc. KotA would have suggested that the scientists all sat on the beach with a 'moment seaward to invite the glowing fish to ascend from the deep'

No.

I am suggesting that science launch a 'serious' investigation into the great many anecdotes of U.F.O.'s rather than calling the people who make the reports crazy, mis-informed, or mistaken.

Then again Project Blue Book's conclusion was that U.F.O.'s merely didn't represent a national security threat. This after 'they' flew over D.C. TWICE, even appearing on the front page of the Post.

So if the U.F.O.'s buzzed D.C. twice, yet 'science' has failed to positively identify them.

And now, mentioning them as a real entity spawns ridicule.

"a moment seaward"...that IS funny though...

[King of the Americas]

No one is saying that though.
What we are saying is that your assertions about the origin of the lights you saw are far beyond the evidence you have to support them.

Had they flown and or operated in a normal manner, and with recognizable flight patterns, I'd have reached a different conclusion.

I didn't just witness "lights"... The ability 'they' demonstrated led me to my E.T. non-human origin conclusion.

[Stray Cat]

No.

I am suggesting that science launch a 'serious' investigation into the great many anecdotes of U.F.O.'s rather than calling the people who make the reports crazy, mis-informed, or mistaken.
The main hurdle to overcome here though are the countless UFOlogists who don't actually do science and yet try to pass their work off as if they were. Mainstream science does right to not be involved with such shinanigans.

The other problem is that when science has looked into UFO reports, they don't actually see anything that warrants further inquiry. But really that shouldn't stop any UFOlogist who is claiming to be doing science from actually doing some valid science to support his belief.

Then again Project Blue Book's conclusion was that U.F.O.'s merely didn't represent a national security threat. This after 'they' flew over D.C. TWICE, even appearing on the front page of the Post.
Which kind of shows the level of threat from even the most well publicised UFO reports and also the unending ability of some people to accept everything they read as long as it confirms their belief.

So if the U.F.O.'s buzzed D.C. twice, yet 'science' has failed to positively identify them.
Science makes accurate observations and forms conclusions based upon the available evidence. The evidence from the Washington UFO's is neither accurately reported, nor free from misconception. The photos have been shown to be possible mundane in origin. If there is anything 'otherworldly' about them, it is not apparent in either the formation of the story nor the evidence commonly used to support it.

And now, mentioning them as a real entity spawns ridicule.
Mentioning them doesn't usually spawn ridicule. Ridiculous comments about them on the other hand...

"a moment seaward"...that IS funny though...
I'm glad you appreciate the humour. :)

[Stray Cat]

Had they flown and or operated in a normal manner, and with recognizable flight patterns, I'd have reached a different conclusion.
I'm sure that the Mexican pilot who filmed a group of UFOs in his FLIR as they surrounded his plane over Campeche thought the same.

I didn't just witness "lights"... The ability 'they' demonstrated led me to my E.T. non-human origin conclusion.
As did the Mexican military.

[King of the Americas]

I'm sure that the Mexican pilot who filmed a group of UFOs in his FLIR as they surrounded his plane over Campeche thought the same.


As did the Mexican military.

I am unfamiliar with the sighting you speak of... Could you offer a link to a more detailed account?

[King of the Americas]

The main hurdle to overcome here though are the countless UFOlogists who don't actually do science and yet try to pass their work off as if they were. Mainstream science does right to not be involved with such shinanigans.

...

...The photos have been shown to be possible mundane in origin. If there is anything 'otherworldly' about them, it is not apparent in either the formation of the story nor the evidence commonly used to support it.


Mentioning them doesn't usually spawn ridicule. Ridiculous comments about them on the other hand...

...

I wholly agree with your initial statement. Half-assed, underfunded, ill-equipped investigations aren't going to yield anything useful, which is why MANY have called for serious investigations. Project Blue Book was the last one...decades ago.

The sighting over D.C. was mundane in origin??? What was it??? Since the two sightings that scrambled jets, and caused the launch of PBB, how many times have similar sightings occurred over D.C.???

What kind of comments would spawn ridicule? Something like, "They exist.", perhaps???

[Stray Cat]

I am unfamiliar with the sighting you speak of... Could you offer a link to a more detailed account?
Yes sure, there are plenty of reports on the internet so I just randomly chose this one from a pro UFO site: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/mexico/mexico.dwt

And then you may like to balance that one against this from CSICOP: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/campeche_mexico_infrared_ufo_video

Notice the two entirely different approaches used?

[Stray Cat]

I wholly agree with your initial statement. Half-assed, underfunded, ill-equipped investigations aren't going to yield anything useful, which is why MANY have called for serious investigations.
But the amount of money wasted by certain UFOlogists in chasing wild geese (a metaphor not wild Canadian mountain geese a la Kenneth Arnold ;)) ensures that they will never be able to actually do any science despite publishing and selling countless books claiming to be about the subject.

Project Blue Book was the last one...decades ago.
I'm not even sure that Blue Book was 'science', it was more akin to a crime investigation than anything. And of course depending on which bit is being cited for which discussion people are involved in, is regularly used to bolster Alien beliefs and cry government cover up. Sometimes in the same paragraph.

The sighting over D.C. was mundane in origin??? What was it??? Since the two sightings that scrambled jets, and caused the launch of PBB, how many times have similar sightings occurred over D.C.???
I didn't say it was mundane in origin, only that the mundane has not been ruled out and that the evidence points strongly (though not conclusively) to a mundane event occurring as a result of an unusual set of circumstances presenting themselves at once (as is usually the case with UFO reports).

What kind of comments would spawn ridicule? Something like, "They exist.", perhaps???
If it has the word 'blimp' in it.
If it is shaped like a 'blimp'.

Oh yes, and over reaching the evidence to make truth claims like 'they exist'... "I believe in them" would probably be more acceptable but on the JREF forum, even that would be open to some questioning.

[bruto]

They've ALWAYS existed. Our awareness of them began when the first person saw them, except that the awareness stayed with the initial reporter AND those who took his sighting as truth, and did not penetrate the walls of science.

'I' am amazed that you are still ignoring the heart of the argument here.

Dismissing anecdotes of unknown entities is STUPID.

Saying that someone couldn't have possibly seen what they propose, because said entity is presently unknown to science, won't lead to new discoveries. Dismissing may be, but doubting is not. But in this thread, at least, I'm not dismissing the anecdotes. I've been arguing all along that if the anecdotes were true your proposal would be a mistake.

[Hellbound]

Dismissing may be, but doubting is not. But in this thread, at least, I'm not dismissing the anecdotes. I've been arguing all along that if the anecdotes were true your proposal would be a mistake.

And you know, this statement, and the thread in general, really demonstrates the problem with thinking that anecdotes are evidence.

Because what KoTA really meant was not "assume all the anecdotes are true" but "assume all the anecdotes that support my personal beliefs are true".

And that's the issue.

If we accept anecdotes as true...as evidence of something..., then we have to accept them all or reject them all based on the same standard. If someone claiming it makes it more likely to be true, then this has to apply even to the anecdotes you don't personally believe. Otherwise you're simply picking and choosing your evidence based on your beliefs.

And that's the problem. If you accept anecdotes as evidence, how do you seperate the "true" from the "false"? When people claim anecdotes are not evidence, they are NOT claiming anecdotes are false (as most believers seem to take the statement), but simply the point illustrated here: anecdotes have no value in determining truth from falsity.

The only thing anecdotes might be evidence for is that something is happening that peopel think is this, and it might be worth investigating. And in cases (like aliens, or psi powers, or speaking with the dead, or many other areas) where the anecdotes that have been investigated have turned out to be due to mistakes, illness, or hoax, and none has provided evidence supporting the explanation, then the odds say that the unexplained ones probably fall into those categories as well.

[Marcus]

Where we can't and or aren't looking...I presume.
Hiding a civilization in the solar system would be extremely difficult. Very, very, unlikely. We have thousand of telescopes observing observing our neighborhood, including numerous satellites in transit . A single spacecraft could escape notice, sure, but you are talking about a race of beings. Long term survival off of Earth would require a high level of technology, which would leave obvious signs.

[King of the Americas]

Yes sure, there are plenty of reports on the internet so I just randomly chose this one from a pro UFO site: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/mexico/mexico.dwt

And then you may like to balance that one against this from CSICOP: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/campeche_mexico_infrared_ufo_video

Notice the two entirely different approaches used?

Admittedly, I only read the second link.

The interesting thing I found there was that skeptics immediately jumped to "ball lightening"...or some other such nonsense, without seriously investigating the sighting.

Truth is best served by serious investigation...

[King of the Americas]

Hiding a civilization in the solar system would be extremely difficult. Very, very, unlikely. We have thousand of telescopes observing observing our neighborhood, including numerous satellites in transit . A single spacecraft could escape notice, sure, but you are talking about a race of beings. Long term survival off of Earth would require a high level of technology, which would leave obvious signs.

Only one side of the moon 'faces' Earth...

Didn't the first Apollo mission to orbit the moon return from the dark side to report, "Santa Clause does exist."...?

Now, please don't take this to mean me saying "They DO exist 'on the moon'." as my stance.

I am merely saying it is one possibility.

How much evidence of our existence will still be around 2,000 years from now?

[King of the Americas]

And you know, this statement, and the thread in general, really demonstrates the problem with thinking that anecdotes are evidence.

Because what KoTA really meant was not "assume all the anecdotes are true" but "assume all the anecdotes that support my personal beliefs are true".

And that's the issue.

If we accept anecdotes as true...as evidence of something..., then we have to accept them all or reject them all based on the same standard. ...



Here and now, all that is asked is that participants within this thread accept that- "They exist."

AND propose manners of getting them to descend.

With that, you may assume any anecdote about them is true. That they are good, bad, reptiles, or greys...

The question is "How do we get them to descend?" Cover as many bases as you'd like.

[bruto]

Only one side of the moon 'faces' Earth...

Didn't the first Apollo mission to orbit the moon return from the dark side to report, "Santa Clause does exist."...?

Now, please don't take this to mean me saying "They DO exist 'on the moon'." as my stance.

I am merely saying it is one possibility.

How much evidence of our existence will still be around 2,000 years from now?
The dark side of the moon has been investigated, photographed, observed and probed. Why would anyone think that it could harbor a large and active contingent of extraterrestrial aliens [note, if they live elsewhere than earth, they're aliens - live with it!] and their spaceships.

There will most likely be abundant evidence of our existence 2000 years from now, as there is abundant evidence of creatures that lived many many times longer ago than that now, and a pretty good collection of artifacts of our own ancestors who lived longer ago than that.

I can rummage along the shores of Lake Champlain and find credible scientific evidence of the existence, and even the morphology, of creatures that have been extinct for millions of years. We have more credible scientific knowledge of the ancestors of corals that lived half a billion years ago than we have of your anecdotal gods from space.

[RoboTimbo]

Here and now, all that is asked is that participants within this thread accept that- "They exist."

AND propose manners of getting them to descend.

With that, you may assume any anecdote about them is true. That they are good, bad, reptiles, or greys...

The question is "How do we get them to descend?" Cover as many bases as you'd like.

If the anecdotes are true and they are Vogons, we don't want them to descend. We don't want to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

[King of the Americas]

I can rummage along the shores of Lake Champlain and find credible scientific evidence of the existence, and even the morphology, of creatures that have been extinct for millions of years. We have more credible scientific knowledge of the ancestors of corals that lived half a billion years ago than we have of your anecdotal gods from space.

Agreed.

But that doesn't mean that evidence can be found everywhere you look.

Evidence exists of something WHERE that thing existed.

I have found evidence of sea fossils in my back yard. I am hundreds of miles away from any ocean, so how did these things get here? The answer is that at one time, my back yard WAS an ocean.

My point? Oceans move, so if we haven't seen evidence of this lost civilization, maybe we should look under our oceans...?

Have you ever heard of a civilization called Atlantis? Supposedly, they were very capable technologically speaking, but 'sank' one day. Rather than suggest they didn't exist, maybe we should keep looking in places we haven't.

[King of the Americas]

If the anecdotes are true and they are Vogons, we don't want them to descend. We don't want to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

Maybe we could buy them off with cheesecake.

Cheesecake is awesome.

[RoboTimbo]

Maybe we could buy them off with cheesecake.

Cheesecake is awesome.

Off topic. Cheesecake exists.

[Marcus]

Only one side of the moon 'faces' Earth...

Didn't the first Apollo mission to orbit the moon return from the dark side to report, "Santa Clause does exist."...?

Now, please don't take this to mean me saying "They DO exist 'on the moon'." as my stance.

I am merely saying it is one possibility.

The moon has been very well observed in the years since Apollo, most recently by the LRO (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter). Other countries have gotten into the act also, China is on their second moon probe. Farside has been observed using numerous imaging technologies. No civilization there.

How much evidence of our existence will still be around 2,000 years from now?
At 2,000 years, the evidence would be quite obvious, ruins laying around. If you want to go to say, 500,000 years, digging would be required, but no paleontologist would be deterred.

[Pure Argent]

Have you ever heard of a civilization called Atlantis? Supposedly, they were very capable technologically speaking, but 'sank' one day. Rather than suggest they didn't exist, maybe we should keep looking in places we haven't.

Atlantis was a story told by Plato to illustrate some of his philosophical ideas. It was never meant as a literal account of history.

Try checking your facts.

[King of the Americas]

Off topic. Cheesecake exists.

So do 'they'...

The question is, "Do they like cheesecake?"

[Sledge]

Pyramids! We should build pyramids!

Oh, no, wait, we can't. Modern technology can't build them. Lets go back to birds and monkeys.No, let's go back to the birds and the bees. Somone get me Salma Hayak.

Had they flown and or operated in a normal manner, and with recognizable flight patterns, I'd have reached a different conclusion.
What a pity that we've previously established that you don't have the expertise to make this judgement.

[RoboTimbo]

So do 'they'...

The question is, "Do they like cheesecake?"

I can show you cheesecake. Show me an alienthatI'mnotsayingisreallyanalien.

[King of the Americas]

Atlantis was a story told by Plato to illustrate some of his philosophical ideas. It was never meant as a literal account of history.

Try checking your facts.

Really...?

What was "Troy" before it was found, but a fictional city within a fictional tale?

Then again, saying it isn't real means you never have to look for it.

[Correa Neto]

No, let's go back to the birds and the bees. Somone get me Salma Hayak.
OK!

I'll get Olivia Wilde and Megan Fox!

As the Klingons would say, "Today is a great day to die!"

[King of the Americas]

I can show you cheesecake. Show me an alienthatI'mnotsayingisreallyanalien.

Show me a compassionate conservative...

[Correa Neto]

KotA, you want me to explain -again- why what you wrote about sunken civilizations is very wrong?

And also why fossils at your backyard are NOT evidence that a sunken civilization may be lying way down below the the oceans where you wanna be?

[RoboTimbo]

Show me a compassionate conservative...

Now you want to go off topic into politics too?

[King of the Americas]

...

And also why fossils at your backyard are NOT evidence that a sunken civilization may be lying way down below the the oceans where you wanna be?

Yes.

[King of the Americas]

Now you want to go off topic into politics too?

I thought we were talking about things people have heard of, but have no evidence of...?

[King of the Americas]

...

What a pity that we've previously established that you don't have the expertise to make this judgement.

Argument from authority, fallacy?

ONLY backwards...

Having had 'enough' experience identifying airborne craft, I trust my ability to say what I saw operated outside the normal limitations of terrestrial craft.

[Stray Cat]

Admittedly, I only read the second link.

The interesting thing I found there was that skeptics immediately jumped to "ball lightening"...or some other such nonsense, without seriously investigating the sighting.

Truth is best served by serious investigation...
Did you read all the way to the end of the article?

Ball lightening was found not to be the explanation...
Because of serious sceptical investigation.

The Pilot thought he was seeing flying craft that were operating in a way not humanly possible. The military officials upon seeing his FLIR video of them and taking into account his perception of what he'd seen also concurred with him.

The fact that what the pilot saw was neither flying nor beyond what is humanly possible is testament to the fallibility of perception and a warning to those who simply accept human perceptions without verifiable evidence. The verifiable evidence in this case (the FLIR video, well documented flight path of the plane in question etc.) contradicted just about every aspect of the pilot's perceptions of the event.

[Stray Cat]

Having had 'enough' experience identifying airborne craft, I trust my ability to say what I saw operated outside the normal limitations of terrestrial craft.
I'm also sure that the trained and qualified military pilot at Campeche also had 'enough' experience identifying airborne craft.

[RoboTimbo]

Argument from authority, fallacy?

ONLY backwards...

Having had 'enough' experience identifying airborne craft, I trust my ability to say what I saw operated outside the normal limitations of terrestrial craft.

You've given everyone else reason to NOT trust your ability to say what you saw.

[Sledge]

Argument from authority, fallacy?

ONLY backwards...

Having had 'enough' experience identifying airborne craft, I trust my ability to say what I saw operated outside the normal limitations of terrestrial craft.

Nope. You do not have the experience and knowledge necessary to determine that whatever you saw was performing maneuvers beyond the capability of human-built aircraft. You may trust that you are able to do so, but you are wrong. That you cannot see why will come as no surprise to anyone reading this thread. Your whole argument has devolved to "I can't remember what I saw with any accuracy, but that's no reason to doubt what I'm saying."

[Correa Neto]

Yes.
Here´s the simple version:

Most of the ocean's bottom is oceanic crust composed by basalts; its almost 3km below the sea's surface, in average. Maximum global sea levels changes are around + 500m in relation to the present sea level (we have a pretty good track of this along the Phanerozoic thanks to the oil industry). This means most of the oceans' bottoms have never been exposed above sea level; actually these areas have nerver been even close to the maximum sun light penetration depth.

Continental crust, on the other hand, is composed by less dense rocks such as granites, covered by a thin veneer of sedimentary rocks. Vast inland seas like the one which once covered lots of North America back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth were shallow seas (no, its not the case of the Mediterranean sea) whose bottoms were composed by continental crust. These probably were the seas where the fossil seashells at you backyard lived. They were most likely created by a combination of elevated global sea level and relatively small and slow continental crust subsidence during sedimentary basin formation.

In sum, the geologic records do not show any vertical movements large enough to bring a large area composed of oceanic crust above sea level (small slices may be smashed and uplifed where tectonic plates collide) or to bring down (and later up) large chuncks of continental crust down to the same level of the oceans' bottom. No, that's not what subduction does.

And by the way, we have pretty good maps of the oceans' bottoms by now. We know the topography and geology. OK, its not in the same level of detail we know the continents, but the major features are known. But guess what? Nothing which could be related to Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, Hyperboria, etc. has ever been found. Nothing which could be related to the infrastructure an underwater technological civilization would require has ever been found too.

[Marcus]

I am merely saying it is one possibility.


The moon has been very well observed in the years since Apollo, most recently by the LRO (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter). Other countries have gotten into the act also, China is on their second moon probe. Farside has been observed using numerous imaging technologies. No civilization there.

I think we can safely eliminate the Moon as a hiding place for your domestic ETs. Where else do you think that they might be hiding?

[Marduk]

Really...?

What was "Troy" before it was found, but a fictional city within a fictional tale?
.
Theres Troy and then theres the Illiad, one is real and the other is a poem, do you know the difference ?

Then again, saying it isn't real means you never have to look for it.
But people did look for the origin of the myth, and they found it, thats something you've never done, you believed for instance that the reference to grasshoppers in Exodus meant that the Anakim were giants, when it actually meant that the Anakim were outnumbered, thats because you were believing the woo about giants and not reading what was written in front of you.

Likewise you have taken a claim made on a ufo show about underwater lights and started using it as an analogy, when in fact, ten minutes research would have shown you the claim to be completely unfounded, yet again, you didn't bother to do that research and when I did it for you, you became wilfully ignorant because you think other people wouldn't notice. They did, you got busted, you resorted to flaming people as you have here then you got suspended for telling someone to kill themselves. You've learned nothing, your type doesn't, ignorance and fantasy makes you happy because youre a sheep.
Thats why you have people on ignore, its no coincedence that people you ignore are the ones showing you empirical evidence contrary to your beliefs, so you ignore them hoping the evidence will go away, it never will though, its empirical
:p

[Weak Kitten]

Really...?

What was "Troy" before it was found, but a fictional city within a fictional tale?

Then again, saying it isn't real means you never have to look for it.

Yes. the ruins of a city that we believe may be Troy were found. However it is a big step between accepting that Troy existed and accepting that the Greek gods really were involved in a major battle for said city.

An ancient city, on a major sea-trade rout, with buildings and artifacts appropriate to the time period in which it would have been lived in, is not an extraordinary thing. The only quibble would be whether it was called Troy.

Gods swooping down from the skies, possessing mortals and fighting in their wars is a bizarre thing that only shows up in stories. We have never seen it happen outside of stories, we have no physical evidence of ever happening anytime, anywhere.

Thus, proving that the gods existed would require a whole heck of a lot more evidence then proving that a very normal city in a very normal place once existed.

[Correa Neto]

Not to mention that the wars fought by these gods should have left traces behind. Not even a vimana part was kept as relic? Not even a bolt?

No, there are no reliable evidence that Harappa was hit by a nuke. Its woolore.

[tsig]

I did try to point that out to him earlier on.

Must have missed that.

Of course the whole idea that aliens would value the same thing that we value overlooks the fact that they are aliens.

I'm reminded of an SF short story where the aliens wanted cow-patties.

I think it was "The Big Pat Boom".

[tsig]

'Cause they are pretty.

'Cause they need an opportunity to be seen by enough people, that no government could deny their existence.

'Cause it is the TRUTH.

Blasting NYC would accomplish that.

[King of the Americas]

Yes. the ruins of a city that we believe may be Troy were found...

...

My point in bringing it up, was the before it was found, it was thought to be merely fictional.

It took someone 'believing' it was real to go look for it.

Yet its existence was not conditional upon anyone believing in it. It was a real city before it was found.

[tsig]

You've missed my point. While I don't believe in aliens, I do conclude that there is something intelligent in our heavens, that isn't us.

The historical record is littered with tales and pictures of E.T's or heavenly agents.

They have always been 'up there', and I hold that they may have even evolved here, long ago, and simply ascended to the heavens.

Since they ascended why do you think they want to descend?

[tsig]

They've ALWAYS existed. Our awareness of them began when the first person saw them, except that the awareness stayed with the initial reporter AND those who took his sighting as truth, and did not penetrate the walls of science.

'I' am amazed that you are still ignoring the heart of the argument here.

Dismissing anecdotes of unknown entities is STUPID.

Saying that someone couldn't have possibly seen what they propose, because said entity is presently unknown to science, won't lead to new discoveries.

Many think they are blazing new trails when they are actually hopelessly lost in the forest.

[tsig]

Only one side of the moon 'faces' Earth...

Didn't the first Apollo mission to orbit the moon return from the dark side to report, "Santa Clause does exist."...?

Now, please don't take this to mean me saying "They DO exist 'on the moon'." as my stance.

I am merely saying it is one possibility.

How much evidence of our existence will still be around 2,000 years from now?

I thought the notthealiens existed now?

[tsig]

No, let's go back to the birds and the bees. Somone get me Salma Hayak.


What a pity that we've previously established that you don't have the expertise to make this judgement.

Now that's cheesecake!

[tsig]

OK!

I'll get Olivia Wilde and Megan Fox!

As the Klingons would say, "Today is a great day to die!"

I thought they said "Today is a great day for you to die!"

[King of the Americas]

Since they ascended why do you think they want to descend?

They probably don't...or they likely would have.

That said, I want them to descend for the betterment of humanity.

[tsig]

Here´s the simple version:

Most of the ocean's bottom is oceanic crust composed by basalts; its almost 3km below the sea's surface, in average. Maximum global sea levels changes are around + 500m in relation to the present sea level (we have a pretty good track of this along the Phanerozoic thanks to the oil industry). This means most of the oceans' bottoms have never been exposed above sea level; actually these areas have nerver been even close to the maximum sun light penetration depth.

Continental crust, on the other hand, is composed by less dense rocks such as granites, covered by a thin veneer of sedimentary rocks. Vast inland seas like the one which once covered lots of North America back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth were shallow seas (no, its not the case of the Mediterranean sea) whose bottoms were composed by continental crust. These probably were the seas where the fossil seashells at you backyard lived. They were most likely created by a combination of elevated global sea level and relatively small and slow continental crust subsidence during sedimentary basin formation.

In sum, the geologic records do not show any vertical movements large enough to bring a large area composed of oceanic crust above sea level (small slices may be smashed and uplifed where tectonic plates collide) or to bring down (and later up) large chuncks of continental crust down to the same level of the oceans' bottom. No, that's not what subduction does.

And by the way, we have pretty good maps of the oceans' bottoms by now. We know the topography and geology. OK, its not in the same level of detail we know the continents, but the major features are known. But guess what? Nothing which could be related to Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, Hyperboria, etc. has ever been found. Nothing which could be related to the infrastructure an underwater technological civilization would require has ever been found too.

I just saw a TV show where they used a computer sim to drain the oceans. No notthealiens cities there.

[bruto]

My point in bringing it up, was the before it was found, it was thought to be merely fictional.

It took someone 'believing' it was real to go look for it.

Yet its existence was not conditional upon anyone believing in it. It was a real city before it was found.Yes, people believed in Troy and found it. People have believed in Atlantis and looked and looked and tried and tried, but no Atlantis has been found. The likeliest explanation for that is that there is no Atlantis to find because Plato made it up. By contrast, Troy was believed mythical for some time, but when Schliemann decided to look for it, he found it. You seem to be working backwards here, and I continue to be amused, if not surprised, by your choice of examples. The fact that real things are found when looked for is not a good example to bring up when you are arguing for something which has been looked for and never found.

[Correa Neto]

I thought they said "Today is a great day for you to die!"
If you mean Megan Fox and Olivia Wilde saying that to me... mmmmmmmmmm! Can't wait!

Now if its the Klingons, no, they say "Today is a great day to die" - Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam

But the sky demons will say "Today is a great day for you to die!" when they land.

[Marduk]

It took someone 'believing' it was real to go look for it.

I suppose the fact that the person who found it was an amateur archaeologist who coincedentally happened to own the land which half the city was buried in and that the location had been suspected as Troy for over 50 years at that point is irrelevant when youre making stuff up again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Calvert
:p

[Correa Neto]

I just saw a TV show where they used a computer sim to drain the oceans. No notthealiens cities there.

We can also rule ou the Moon and Mars- imagery show no signs of artificial structures. Venus is too hot and the pressure is overwhelming. We are left with some moons from Jupiter and Saturn. No signs of artificial structures at the icemoons, too. Titan seems to be the only one left, since we can not image its surface very well (not sure if the signs of an advanced civilization would fail to be noticed in the imagery we have from it).

Back here there are no signs of the natural resources harvesting an advanced technologic civilization would need have made and also no signs of the hardware it would have created.

The gap to hide the aliens is pretty narrow.

[Zanders]

Especially when it is irrelevant to the issue at hand...

Although, I must say I am not at all surprised that there were some sexy Neanderthals that managed to hook up with our Sapien ancestors. Their existence overlapped by like 10,000 years, after all.

And this 'overlap' is what is important. The Sapiens took off while the Neanderthals pretty much died off.

I DON'T think the 'one drop rule' applies here. We aren't Neanderthals.

The nod went to the Sapiens, some of which dabbled in the horizontal arts with a few Neanderthals.

If you studied a bit more about evolutionary biology and other such topics, you would see that the alien intervention interbreeding theories are very flawed. They twist up and skew information, while cherry picking or excluding the parts that don't fit.

Atlantis was never real. The original story of Atlantis wasn't meant to be true, people just ran with it and people like you perpetuate it.
Also, why couldn't we have built the pyramids? Just because you lack information doesn't mean you should ignorantly speculate.

Some people are just fantasy-prone, I guess. If it's what makes your life exciting...

[King of the Americas]

...

...Also, why couldn't we have built the pyramids? Just because you lack information doesn't mean you should ignorantly speculate.

...

Ever heard of Puma Punku?

If you can replicate one of these stones (http://newbestgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Puma-puncu.jpg), using modern HAND tools, I'll get out of my chair and kiss your feet as though you were a demigod.

Good luck...

[GeeMack]

Ever heard of Puma Punku?

If you can replicate one of these stones (http://newbestgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Puma-puncu.jpg), using modern HAND tools, I'll get out of my chair and kiss your feet as though you were a demigod.

Good luck...


Wandering off into the argument from incredulity zone. Creationists, what a bunch of idiots. They simply can't fathom reality, therefore gods.

[Marcus]

We can also rule ou the Moon and Mars- imagery show no signs of artificial structures. Venus is too hot and the pressure is overwhelming. We are left with some moons from Jupiter and Saturn. No signs of artificial structures at the icemoons, too. Titan seems to be the only one left, since we can not image its surface very well (not sure if the signs of an advanced civilization would fail to be noticed in the imagery we have from it).

Back here there are no signs of the natural resources harvesting an advanced technologic civilization would need have made and also no signs of the hardware it would have created.

The gap to hide the aliens is pretty narrow.
KoA doesn't seem to want to talk about this. I guess it's easier to leave it with a vague "up there" so he doesn't have to face the conspicious absence of his ETs in the solar ayatem.

[RoboTimbo]

Ever heard of Puma Punku?

If you can replicate one of these stones (http://newbestgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Puma-puncu.jpg), using modern HAND tools, I'll get out of my chair and kiss your feet as though you were a demigod.

Good luck...

I'm virtually certain that I can't recreate it. Does that mean that it is impossible for humans to accomplish?

[King of the Americas]

KoA doesn't seem to want to talk about this. I guess it's easier to leave it with a vague "up there" so he doesn't have to face the conspicious absence of his ETs in the solar ayatem.

It is easier to simply say I don't know where they reside.

The only thing we know is that they have always been 'up there' and or nearby.

[Zanders]

Ever heard of Puma Punku?

If you can replicate one of these stones (http://newbestgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Puma-puncu.jpg), using modern HAND tools, I'll get out of my chair and kiss your feet as though you were a demigod.

Good luck...

We don't know how they did it. It was aliens/Gods/angels/demons. Ignore all other possible and more likely theories, they are boring.

[King of the Americas]

We don't know how they did it. It was aliens/Gods/angels/demons. Ignore all other possible and more likely theories, they are boring.

I didn't remark as to who DID do it.

I said if you can replicate one of these with modern hand tools, that I'd kiss your feet.

So, go buy yourself a carbide tipped chisel and start working.

Let me know when you are done...

[Zanders]

I didn't remark as to who DID do it.

I said if you can replicate one of these with modern hand tools, that I'd kiss your feet.

So, go buy yourself a carbide tipped chisel and start working.

Let me know when you are done...

Are you saying that they had advanced technology? Where is any evidence that the people there had any special technology? All we have is something mysteriously made. No need to speculate and fill in the gaps with no evidence.

[RoboTimbo]

Ever heard of Puma Punku?

If you can replicate one of these stones (http://newbestgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Puma-puncu.jpg), using modern HAND tools, I'll get out of my chair and kiss your feet as though you were a demigod.

Good luck...

I'm virtually certain that I can't recreate it. Does that mean that it is impossible for humans to accomplish?

[King of the Americas]

Are you saying that they had advanced technology? Where is any evidence that the people there had any special technology? All we have is something mysteriously made. No need to speculate and fill in the gaps with no evidence.

If you CAN'T replicate this work with modern hand tools, then clearly someone back then had 'advanced technology'...

What we have in Puma Punku is something IMPOSSIBLE to make with stone age tools.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Pick up a stone age chisel and prove it.

My current offer remains, leave the stone age tools out of it. Carving a 90 degree angle out of granite is tough. Diorite is even harder.

[GeeMack]

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.


Virtually no chance for doubt about that.

[carlitos]

If you CAN'T replicate this work with modern hand tools, then clearly someone back then had 'advanced technology'...

What we have in Puma Punku is something IMPOSSIBLE to make with stone age tools.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Pick up a stone age chisel and prove it.

My current offer remains, leave the stone age tools out of it. Carving a 90 degree angle out of granite is tough. Diorite is even harder.

Why would the Incas pick up a "stone age chisel" to make something in 500 A.D., when they already had metal tools for 2,500 years? These arguments from incredulity always seem to have a fatal flaw, don't they?

ETA - granite? Try sandstone. Sheesh.

The largest of these stone blocks is 7.81 meters long, 5.17 meters wide, averages 1.07 meters thick, and is estimated to weigh about 131 metric tons. The second largest stone block found within the Pumapunka is 7.90 meters long, 2.50 meters wide, and averages 1.86 meters thick. Its weight has been estimated to be 85.21 metric tons. Both of these stone blocks are part of the Plataforma Lítica and composed of red sandstone.

[King of the Americas]

I'm virtually certain that I can't recreate it. Does that mean that it is impossible for humans to accomplish?

No, it means that stone age man probably didn't do it either...

I've carved on granite. I employed a carbide tipped chisel, and diamond tipped Drumel tools.

It took me months to remove 9 letters worth of stone about 1/8th of an inch deep.

It wasn't until I laid hands on this work that I got a sincere appreciation for the work those stones represent.

I am not even certain we could accomplish the work with modern CNC machines...

The 'corner work' looks more like the stones were molded rather than chiseled.

[King of the Americas]

Why would the Incas pick up a "stone age chisel" to make something in 500 A.D., when they already had metal tools for 2,500 years? These arguments from incredulity always seem to have a fatal flaw, don't they?

ETA - granite? Try sandstone. Sheesh.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco

"...The stones in Puma Punku are made up of granite, and diorite, and the only stone that is harder that those two, is the diamond..."

[carlitos]

Your source is wrong full of crap. They were built in the second half of the first century millenium, not during the stone age! They are made of sandstone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

[Marduk]

Ever heard of Puma Punku?
..

ever heard of research ?
:p

[King of the Americas]

Your source is wrong full of crap. They were built in the second half of the first century, not during the stone age! They are made of sandstone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

Wikipedia is your source...?

Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.

That is the first time I've ever heard of the stones being sandstone.

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.

[GeeMack]

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.


(Bolding mine.) Incredulity abounds.

[BTMO]

No, it means that stone age man probably didn't do it either...

I've carved on granite. I employed a carbide tipped chisel, and diamond tipped Drumel tools.

It took me months to remove 9 letters worth of stone about 1/8th of an inch deep.

It wasn't until I laid hands on this work that I got a sincere appreciation for the work those stones represent.

I am not even certain we could accomplish the work with modern CNC machines...

The 'corner work' looks more like the stones were molded rather than chiseled.

And monumental masons (ie, the people who make headstones) do this sort of thing all day every day, use granite, and DON'T take months to make a single headstone.

Who knew? Technique as much as technology makes a difference.

[RoboTimbo]

No, it means that stone age man probably didn't do it either...

I've carved on granite. I employed a carbide tipped chisel, and diamond tipped Drumel tools.

It took me months to remove 9 letters worth of stone about 1/8th of an inch deep.

It wasn't until I laid hands on this work that I got a sincere appreciation for the work those stones represent.

I am not even certain we could accomplish the work with modern CNC machines...

The 'corner work' looks more like the stones were molded rather than chiseled.
Here's a piece of silicon. Make a computer chip out of it. What's that you say? You don't know how? Are you now going to tell me that computers are of alien manufacture? Too hard for you?

Ok, here's some marble and a steel chisel. Make a replica of the statue of David. Aliens must have made it, you say?

[King of the Americas]

And monumental masons (ie, the people who make headstones) do this sort of thing all day every day, use granite, and DON'T take months to make a single headstone.

Who knew? Technique as much as technology makes a difference.

Right, they employ sandblasters...they can carve a name in about a half an hour and go twice as deep as I did.

So, when did compressor technology hit the market?

Most masons use air hammers to rough out stone, then go to hand tools for the finer work.

Go buy a compressor and get after it. As an amateur stone mason I'd LOVE to see someone replicate that work.

[RoboTimbo]

Right, they employ sandblasters...they can carve a name in about a half an hour and go twice as deep as I did.

So, when did compressor technology hit the market?

Most masons use air hammers to rough out stone, then go to hand tools for the finer work.

Go buy a compressor and get after it. As an amateur stone mason I'd LOVE to see someone replicate that work.

I'd LOVE to see you recreate the statue of David, even if you have to do it in softer sandstone like they used at Pumapunku.

[King of the Americas]

Here's a piece of silicon. Make a computer chip out of it. What's that you say? You don't know how? Are you now going to tell me that computers are of alien manufacture? Too hard for you?

Ok, here's some marble and a steel chisel. Make a replica of the statue of David. Aliens must have made it, you say?

Alright.

IF you can find ANYONE who can replicate that work, I'll kiss both your feet and theirs.

David was carved out of marble. After working with granite, I understand why he chose that medium.

Gian Lorenzo Bernini's work is equally impressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina

[BTMO]

Right, they employ sandblasters...they can carve a name in about a half an hour and go twice as deep as I did.

So, when did compressor technology hit the market?

Most masons use air hammers to rough out stone, then go to hand tools for the finer work.

Go buy a compressor and get after it. As an amateur stone mason I'd LOVE to see someone replicate that work.

I wonder how headstones were made, oh, say 100 years ago...

[Zanders]

Quit using such biased and speculative sources. Clearly what you have been reading has false information.


Wikipedia is your source...?

Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.

That is the first time I've ever heard of the stones being sandstone.

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.

Check the citations on wikipedia to determine whether the information is from a reliable sources or not. I'm sure it is more academic than the ancient astronaut sites you are using.

[King of the Americas]

I wonder how headstones were made, oh, say 100 years ago...

With fewer characters...

[RoboTimbo]

Alright.

IF you can find ANYONE who can replicate that work, I'll kiss both your feet and theirs.

David was carved out of marble. After working with granite, I understand why he chose that medium.

Gian Lorenzo Bernini's work is equally impressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina

So you ARE saying that the statue of David and computer chips are made by aliens?

[King of the Americas]

Quit using such biased and speculative sources. Clearly what you have been reading has false information.

Check the citations on wikipedia to determine whether the information is from a reliable sources or not. I'm sure it is more academic than the ancient astronaut sites you are using.

THIS is the first time I have ever seen the Puma Punka stones described as sandstone...

The source for the Wikipedia entry is from 1970, and is in spanish. Not that either of those fact matter. I would just like to see something scholarly, recent, and in a language I understand.

[King of the Americas]

So you ARE saying that the statue of David and computer chips are made by aliens?

No...

I'm not.

[Zanders]

THIS is the first time I have ever seen the Puma Punka stones described as sandstone...

The source for the Wikipedia entry is from 1970, and is in spanish. Not that either of those fact matter. I would just like to see something scholarly, recent, and in a language I understand.

I'll try to look up some scholarly articles on it, when I googled it I was mostly finding stuff like "ancient mysteries", "mystic places" and "unexplained mysteries". The types of places that would like to make it sound as mysterious and supernatural as they can.

[Zanders]

*double post*

[RoboTimbo]

No...

I'm not.

Of course you are, or you are a hypocrite. Which is it?

[King of the Americas]

I'll try to look up some scholarly articles on it, when I googled it I was mostly finding stuff like "ancient mysteries", "mystic places" and "unexplained mysteries". The types of places that would like to make it sound as mysterious and supernatural as they can.

I had the same problem...

[King of the Americas]

Of course you are, or you are a hypocrite. Which is it?

What are you talking about?

[RoboTimbo]

What are you talking about?

You can't replicate the statue of David or a silicon chip. To you, they must have been made by aliens. Just like I can't replicate stone masonry so it must be aliens.

So are those both true or are they both fallacious? Or are you hypocritically asserting that one is true and the other isn't?

[carlitos]

Wikipedia is your source...?
Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.

That is the first time I've ever heard of the stones being sandstone.

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.

Alright.

IF you can find ANYONE who can replicate that work, I'll kiss both your feet and theirs.

David was carved out of marble. After working with granite, I understand why he chose that medium.

Gian Lorenzo Bernini's work is equally impressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina

The irony in this post is high.

Even most of the wooish sites I saw acknowledge that the stones were sandstone. Feel free to continue believing otherwise.

And you completely missed the point regarding STONE AGE TOOLS since the people who carved these stones used METAL TOOLS that they had been using for THOUSANDS OF YEARS AT THE TIME.

Really, we are all wrong sometimes. Admitting it actually gains you respect around here. Give it a try.

[bruto]

If you CAN'T replicate this work with modern hand tools, then clearly someone back then had 'advanced technology'...

What we have in Puma Punku is something IMPOSSIBLE to make with stone age tools.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Pick up a stone age chisel and prove it.

My current offer remains, leave the stone age tools out of it. Carving a 90 degree angle out of granite is tough. Diorite is even harder.

The stones in question are sandstone, and look like sandstone. It would be wishful thinking indeed to see them as granite. The workmanship is indeed superb and precise, showing great craftsmanship, expertise, and geometrical savvy. They apparently prefabricated many of these stones at the quarry in precisely produced shapes that were interchangeable, very clever indeed. The craftsmen who worked these stones were in possession of metal tools, as should be obvious since one of the most interesting aspects of this stone work is the metal butterfly joints they used to hold them together. There is no question that these people were very very skilful, imaginative and inventive.

The idea that because you don't know how to do it, it must be the work of nonhumans is nonsensical, egotistical, ethnocentric prattle. Those folks were great masters of their art, but they did not need gods and spacemen to teach them how to carve rock, or some dude on the internet to tell they couldn't. The credit is all theirs.

[Psiload]

If you CAN'T replicate this work with modern hand tools, then clearly someone back then had 'advanced technology'...

What we have in Puma Punku is something IMPOSSIBLE to make with stone age tools.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Pick up a stone age chisel and prove it.

My current offer remains, leave the stone age tools out of it. Carving a 90 degree angle out of granite is tough. Diorite is even harder.

The Egyptians were intricately carving diorite over 4000 years before the peak of Pumapunku...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Eg ypt_Field_Museum.jpg

And before you further embarrass yourself by declaring it IMPOSSIBLE, please see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_building_technology_in_ancient_Egypt

[Marduk]

News at 11
Why super-highly advanced aliens are primitive
:D

The Egyptians were intricately carving diorite over 4000 years before the peak of Pumapunku...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Eg ypt_Field_Museum.jpg

And before you further embarrass yourself by declaring it IMPOSSIBLE, please see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_building_technology_in_ancient_Egypt
my favourite alien artifact is this one
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/hammurabi-code.jpg
The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian law code, dating to ca. 1700 BCE (short chronology). The sixth Babylonian king, Hammurabi, enacted the code, and partial copies exist on a human-sized stone stele and various clay tablets. The Code consists of 282 laws, with scaled punishments, adjusting "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" (lex talionis) as graded depending on social status, of slave versus free man.

One nearly complete example of the Code survives today, on a diorite stele in the shape of a huge index finger, 2.25 m or 7.4 ft tall *
The Code is inscribed in the Akkadian language, using cuneiform script carved into the stele, today on display in the Museum of Modern Art.
But I don't understand, why would Aliens have a human king write laws for humans without mentioning they exist ?
certainly someone got the finger here *

[King of the Americas]

The Egyptians were intricately carving diorite over 4000 years before the peak of Pumapunku...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diorite_Vase_Neqada_II_Predynastic_Ancient_Eg ypt_Field_Museum.jpg

And before you further embarrass yourself by declaring it IMPOSSIBLE, please see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_building_technology_in_ancient_Egypt

Sir, with all do respect, 'round holes' are easy. A stick, and a bow, with some ground quartz will drill a hole in just about anything. Making squared 90 degree INNER corners is something else entirely.

Take a close look at the work. Carving is one thing, but what made the Puma Punku stones into what they are was a masonry wonder.

[Marduk]

Sir, with all do respect, 'round holes' are easy. A stick, and a bow, with some ground quartz will drill a hole in just about anything. Making squared 90 degree corners is something else entirely.

Take a close look at the work. Carving is one thing, but what made the Puma Punku stones into what they are was a masonry wonder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
:rolleyes:

[BTMO]

Sir, with all do respect, 'round holes' are easy. A stick, and a bow, with some ground quartz will drill a hole in just about anything. Making squared 90 degree corners is something else entirely.

Take a close look at the work. Carving is one thing, but what made the Puma Punku stones into what they are was a masonry wonder.

And the comment just above re: Egyptian obelisks?

I've been to Egypt, I've marvelled at the obelisks - the size, the intricacy of the carving, the amount of carving, the fact that they are granite...

[King of the Americas]

The stones in question are sandstone, and look like sandstone. It would be wishful thinking indeed to see them as granite. The workmanship is indeed superb and precise, showing great craftsmanship, expertise, and geometrical savvy. They apparently prefabricated many of these stones at the quarry in precisely produced shapes that were interchangeable, very clever indeed. The craftsmen who worked these stones were in possession of metal tools, as should be obvious since one of the most interesting aspects of this stone work is the metal butterfly joints they used to hold them together. There is no question that these people were very very skilful, imaginative and inventive.

The idea that because you don't know how to do it, it must be the work of nonhumans is nonsensical, egotistical, ethnocentric prattle. Those folks were great masters of their art, but they did not need gods and spacemen to teach them how to carve rock, or some dude on the internet to tell they couldn't. The credit is all theirs.

First, there are granite, diorite, and sandstone quarries in Bolivia. I am 90% certain that 'some' of the stones at Puma Punku are diorite. I am also certain that some are made of sandstone. In my searches I have seen sources that say both, and both stones are common to the local geology.

Second, what I said was that whoever did that had advance technology.

The accuracy of the work itself is awesome, but when you think about how many 'master masons' it must have taken, then the whole project takes on another meaning. You'd need an army of master masons, to do this. There had to have been a way of mass producing these things. They fit together like perfect stone legos, hundreds of them.

They look like they came out of a mold, rather than being individually carved.

[aviolet4u]

So, lets pretend for a moment that all the anecdotes ARE accurate, that history IS a depiction of gods descending from the heavens, and that this is what people are seeing when they witness a U.F.O. The debate is over they exist.

The question is how do we make contact, or otherwise 'invite' them back, so we can all meet face to face?

I propose we invite them to the opening ceremonies at the next Olympics. In my exuberant youth, I came to the conclusion that they would show up, just as soon as most of the world was looking at one place... Digitally speaking, we are almost capable of focusing global attention on a singular spot.

How else would one go about reaching out to them?

Does anyone know if the large pictograms worked out for the Nazca?

How should we, as the human race, reach out?


If aliens were already here what makes you sure they all up and left? They could still be here among us. Even their ships could be in warp state. If that is the case then there is no need to reach out. :D

[King of the Americas]

If aliens were already here what makes you sure they all up and left? They could still be here among us. Even their ships could be in warp state. If that is the case then there is no need to reach out. :D

Could you define or explain "warp state"?

[aviolet4u]

The state of being warped or twisted? If you go by ermm some people's claims of seeing all those flying discs pop in and out. How else could they appear and disappear so quickly? We have to think logically here.

[BTMO]

First, there are granite, diorite, and sandstone quarries in Bolivia. I am 90% certain that 'some' of the stones at Puma Punku are diorite. I am also certain that some are made of sandstone. In my searches I have seen sources that say both, and both stones are common to the local geology.

Second, what I said was that whoever did that had advance technology.

The accuracy of the work itself is awesome, but when you think about how many 'master masons' it must have taken, then the whole project takes on another meaning. There had to have been a way of mass producing these things. They fit together like perfect stone legos, hundreds of them.

They look like they came out of a mold, rather than being individually carved.


So... anyway... the Egyptians?

[aviolet4u]

the Egyptians are denouncing Mubarak right about now.

[Marduk]

Has he tried to claim that Tiwanaku is 15,000 years old yet ?
:D

[King of the Americas]

The state of being warped or twisted? If you go by ermm some people's claims of seeing all those flying discs pop in and out. How else could they appear and disappear so quickly? We have to think logically here.

What I saw 'darted'...or moved quickly, even while making right angle turns.

I didn't see anything "pop in or out".

That said, what I saw exceeded what I know and understand to be normal flight characteristics.

[King of the Americas]

The irony in this post is high.

...

I used wiki for an 'image'...not specific data on the make up of a pile of rocks in South America.

[bruto]

First, there are granite, diorite, and sandstone quarries in Bolivia. I am 90% certain that 'some' of the stones at Puma Punku are diorite. I am also certain that some are made of sandstone. In my searches I have seen sources that say both, and both stones are common to the local geology.

Second, what I said was that whoever did that had advance technology.

The accuracy of the work itself is awesome, but when you think about how many 'master masons' it must have taken, then the whole project takes on another meaning. You'd need an army of master masons, to do this. There had to have been a way of mass producing these things. They fit together like perfect stone legos, hundreds of them.

They look like they came out of a mold, rather than being individually carved.

The accuracy certainly is awesome, suggesting that someone was very careful in layout and practical application of geometry. Whether or not one would need an army of master masons to do this is, I think, arguable, as once the skills for specific tasks have been learned, skilled laborers can be trained. Not an army of master masons, but an army of stonecutters trained to a single task, equipped with tools and templates, would be far more practical and far more likely. It is an impressive feat of mass production, and the very idea of mass production at that time is noteworthy, but that very fact reminds us that those who worked the stones need not be those who designed them.

It's a wonderful achievement, but nothing in it, as far as I can see, requires superhuman, divine or non-human participation.

[GeeMack]

That said, what I saw exceeded what I know and understand to be normal flight characteristics.


Fixed that for you.

[Zanders]

I had the same problem...


Here's why.

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/project/pumapunku1.html

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0717-73562004000100003&script=sci_arttext


As I was informed by Marduk, "Puma punku is just a temple, the name of the site is Tiwanaku".


Proponents of the ancient astronaut hypothesis always make the mistake of either ignoring the actual historical context of the artifact they are dealing with, or resort to an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should just to irrational conclusions based on no good evidence.

[carlitos]

Has he tried to claim that Tiwanaku is 15,000 years old yet ?
:D
The source he linked did, yes. The source also talked about the Great Flood 12,000 years ago. Complete BS.

I used wiki for an 'image'...not specific data on the make up of a pile of rocks in South America.

If you actually used wikipedia, and read it for information, you would know that 500AD in South America wasn't the STONE AGE.

Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium. Go ahead. Let's see how long your unsourced, fact-free changes to the entry would stay there.

[Marduk]

The source he linked did, yes. The source also talked about the Great Flood 12,000 years ago. Complete BS.

Zanders recently posted link (first one) contain numerous radio carbon dates from the site, the vast majority are grouped around 500 CE, theres one as old as 1990BCE, which iirc was the remains of a campfire found underneath the construction indicating that at that time the site was virgin
;)

[Correa Neto]

Wikipedia is your source...?

Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.

That is the first time I've ever heard of the stones being sandstone.

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.

I take that we no longer have to assume all the anecdotes we like are true and now they and the claims built over them became game, right?

KotA, you should really be carefull when extrapolating what you (believe to) know. Sometimes it will result in a complete mess. I hope now you see why your extrapolation regarding fossil sea shells at your backyard by no means open the possibility that the oceans floors were exposed above sea level and unknown civilizations existed there. This was an example, and that quote of yours up above is another one.

Pumapunku is at an arid to semi arid area where chemical weathering is not intense. This put there are other things you must take in to account:

First of all, sandstones quite frequently are mostly composed by quartz. If this is the case, then you are looking at a rock which will be quite resistant to chemical weathering even in humid tropical climate (where chemical weathering rules and turns diorites in to clay). Now, Pumapunku sandstones can as well be of the types rich in feldspars or lithic components (arkoses and lithic sandstones). Which one will be harder will depend on the cement. The odds are that if they arkoses or lithic sandstones, they will be easier to carve than quartz-rich sandstones.

The second mistake is to assume the rocks used to build the temples would show, in the pictures you saw, signs of weathering effects which happened in the time interval between removal from the quarry and today. Remember, its a dry place. Even if there are weathering signs, not only you should have the skills to detect them but also the pictures would have to show them. Since most of the pics available intend to show the best angles...

Thes third thing you are missing (there are many others) is that all rocks contain fractures, which are natural weakness planes. They happen in sets wich quite often are orthogonal to each other. So, to make a block with straight angles, just split the block along the fractures. Note that since fracture spacing may change according to location within a quarry, blocks with different sizes may result. Now look at a wall buit of stones from Tiwanaku and tell me what you can see regarding the size of the stones used to build it.

Now, if you think Pumapunku carvings and sculptures are too hard to do due to straigth angles, look like having been molded, etc., then I suggest you to take a look at some pictures of Petra (reading about it would be a great idea too) and accept your perceptions, extrapolations and interpretations are once again wrong and your knowledge and experience have flaws (as everyone else's has).

It would be also nice of you to apologize for some harsh comments aimed at the people wich have been providing you with good information. Comments like "abandomn skepticism", for example. Especially when you realize that critical thinking is showing your claims and reasonings are mistaken again.

ETA- Check pics of the site at http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/
Lots of features which are not compatible with woolore. Lines that are not that straight, etc.

[King of the Americas]

...

It's a wonderful achievement, but nothing in it, as far as I can see, requires superhuman, divine or non-human participation.

What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

Indeed you can easily teach someone how to remove, rough out, and or cut stone. Shaping that stone into something specific, on the other hand takes practice and a lot of it. You could arm a modern master mason with carbide tipped chisels, and I seriously doubt they could create one of those stones.

Those angles and inner corners are obscenely difficult to craft, if not impossible with chisels.

I have first hand experience removing stone with the best chisel you can purchase. I had to sharpen it twice in the time it took me to remove less than a half a pound of stone. Carbide was not known to those who crafted those who made these. Not only would you have needed an army of master masons, but you'd have needed a new sharp 'copper' (?) chisel, every 6-12 strikes. So, you'd need two armies doing nothing but sharpening tools...

At this point, I suggest you go and work some stone because you are currently blind to what it takes to create those stones.

[King of the Americas]

...

Proponents of the ancient astronaut hypothesis always make the mistake of either ignoring the actual historical context of the artifact they are dealing with, or resort to an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should just to irrational conclusions based on no good evidence.

The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

[Cuddles]

It is easier to simply say I don't know where they reside.

Indeed it is. Which raises the question of why you keep telling us they live at the bottom of the ocean rather than just saying you don't know.

[King of the Americas]

...

Thes third thing you are missing (there are many others) is that all rocks contain fractures, which are natural weakness planes. They happen in sets wich quite often are orthogonal to each other. So, to make a block with straight angles, just split the block along the fractures. Note that since fracture spacing may change according to location within a quarry, blocks with different sizes may result. Now look at a wall buit of stones from Tiwanaku and tell me what you can see regarding the size of the stones used to build it.

Now, if you think Pumapunku carvings and sculptures are too hard to do due to straigth angles, look like having been molded, etc., then I suggest you to take a look at some pictures of Petra (reading about it would be a great idea too) and accept your perceptions, extrapolations and interpretations are once again wrong and your knowledge and experience have flaws (as everyone else's has).

It would be also nice of you to apologize for some harsh comments aimed at the people wich have been providing you with good information. Comments like "abandomn skepticism", for example. Especially when you realize that critical thinking is showing your claims and reasonings are mistaken again.

ETA- Check pics of the site at http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/
Lots of features which are not compatible with woolore. Lines that are not that straight, etc.

Cutting a series of square descending holes into stone with fracture lines is not easy...

Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult.

I suggest you find a chisel and a piece of stone, and give it a shot. You won't be able to do it, but trying will give you a much better understanding as to what those stones represent.

There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.

And I will most certainly NOT apologize for anything I have said. When you act like a "JERK", I'll say so. Skepticism when employed in the real world would be dangerous, and I suggest you and other keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary.

[King of the Americas]

Indeed it is. Which raises the question of why you keep telling us they live at the bottom of the ocean rather than just saying you don't know.

Your ignorance is showing again, Cuddles.

I never said for certain where they exist. I said they MIGHT be any number of local places we have yet to fully explore.

[carlitos]

Copper chisels? Carbide? Look dude, sandstone just isn't that hard. Why must you LIE about this stuff?
There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.

Yes, stones cut by a master mason would be cut in a 'masterful' way. No aliens (or whatever the hell you claim) required. You incredulity is proof of nothing.

[Correa Neto]

Cutting a series of square descending holes into stone with fracture lines is not easy...

Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult.

I suggest you find a chisel and a piece of stone, and give it a shot. You won't be able to do it, but trying will give you a much better understanding as to what those stones represent.

I suggest you to consider that the fact that a given individual can not reproduce a given artifact does not mean no one else can. Its an incredibly arrogant and/or naive statement.

By the way, I am quite used to see people working in quaries (I am a geologist, and not an young one, remember?). I've seen people cutting blocks of sandstones, granites and gneisses with simple tools. Your statement that "Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult" is simply wrong. Doubt? Check Petra. Or you'll say its beyond our tech also?

There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.

In other words, you are cherry-picking features which fit your view.
Have you actually read what I wrote about your errors? Will you ignore them? Will you accept that your experience, your inferences, your extrapolations were wrong? Or the idea of being wrong is somehow unacceptable for you?

And I will most certainly NOT apologize for anything I have said. When you act like a "JERK", I'll say so.
Please show where I acted as a jerk regarding you. I can show you where I perceived you acted as one regarding me.

Skepticism when employed in the real world would be dangerous, and I suggest you and other keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary.
This is just wrong.

Skeptcism and critical thinking applied to the real world produce much safer results than beliefs. Want an example? Here's one- the people who keep living at dangerous areas subjected to flash floods, mudslides, etc. having faith in "god's will". Want another one? The folks who tried to fly ignoring aerodynamics. If it weren't for critical thinking we would still be using flint tools.

You have not been able to demonstrate the "timely truth" of any of your claims about UFOs and ancient civilizations; I and other people have in many cases provided you with explanations about the "enigmas" you posted. Explanations you choose to forget and/or ignore. You should at least consider the fact that if we once showed you to be wrong in some claim you made, maybe we are also right again.

So, since you seem to hold many answers and exceptional wisdom and knowledge, I challenge you now.

Prove my skydemons scenario is flawed.

Prove my explanations about the implausibility of an ancient civilization with technology above or even equal to ours are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why there are no hidden undersea civilizations are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why a civilization somewhere else in the solar system is implausible are wrong.

If you can't, then consider that blind belief when employed in the real world is dangerous, and I suggest you keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary. Feel free to call me a jerk for calling you on that.

[GeeMack]

It is easier to simply say I don't know where they reside.

Indeed it is. Which raises the question of why you keep telling us they live at the bottom of the ocean rather than just saying you don't know.


It also raises the question of why the continued insistence on not calling "them" aliens.

[King of the Americas]

Copper chisels? Carbide? Look dude, sandstone just isn't that hard. Why must you LIE about this stuff?
Yes, stones cut by a master mason would be cut in a 'masterful' way. No aliens (or whatever the hell you claim) required. You incredulity is proof of nothing.

YOU are lying by attributing "aliens" to anything I've said. Please stop.

I am claiming that the work present there represents either an army of master masons, or a an advanced technology to mass produce these stone legos.

I do not believe that 100% of the stones there are sandstone due to conflicting reports and the fact that there are diorite and granite quarries in Bolivia, as well as sandstone. I think it is 'likely' that some of the stones are not sandstone.

[bruto]

What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

Indeed you can easily teach someone how to remove, rough out, and or cut stone. Shaping that stone into something specific, on the other hand takes practice and a lot of it. You could arm a modern master mason with carbide tipped chisels, and I seriously doubt they could create one of those stones.

Those angles and inner corners are obscenely difficult to craft, if not impossible with chisels.

I have first hand experience removing stone with the best chisel you can purchase. I had to sharpen it twice in the time it took me to remove less than a half a pound of stone. Carbide was not known to those who crafted those who made these. Not only would you have needed an army of master masons, but you'd have needed a new sharp 'copper' (?) chisel, every 6-12 strikes. So, you'd need two armies doing nothing but sharpening tools...

At this point, I suggest you go and work some stone because you are currently blind to what it takes to create those stones.

Oh my. the King blunted his chisel on a rock. Good stone work must be the work of ancient astronauts.

[RoboTimbo]

The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

How is that statue of David coming along? What's that you say? You can't do it? So to you it must have been done by aliens.

Do you really think the statue of David was created by aliens?

[Correa Neto]

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.
Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140

[King of the Americas]

I suggest you to consider that the fact that a given individual can not reproduce a given artifact does not mean no one else can. Its an incredibly arrogant and/or naive statement.

That wasn't the point of the exercise. What you lack is an appreciation for what it takes to arrive at that finished product.

By the way, I am quite used to see people working in quaries (I am a geologist, and not an young one, remember?). I've seen people cutting blocks of sandstones, granites and gneisses with simple tools. Your statement that "Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult" is simply wrong. Doubt? Check Petra. Or you'll say its beyond our tech also?

I did not recall your occupation. My apologies and kudos. Earth Sciences fascinate me.

Petra, while impressive in its own right, is a different quality of work, from what Puma Punku represents.

In other words, you are cherry-picking features which fit your view.

No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

Have you actually read what I wrote about your errors? Will you ignore them? Will you accept that your experience, your inferences, your extrapolations were wrong? Or the idea of being wrong is somehow unacceptable for you?

I think your attempts to make more of my errors are a waste of my time to address...

I will accept that I still live, healthy and often happy, and far from danger. I attribute my very survival to my ability to senses and reason. Having never failed me, I will continue to trust them.

That said, I have and will likely continue to make errors, in judgement or memory. As would be expected as part of the human condition. But to equate this with a 0% trustability rating is absurd.

Please show where I acted as a jerk regarding you. I can show you where I perceived you acted as one regarding me.

I was not referring to you. And I heartily apologize for the inference. I just received a P.M. from the moderation folk for calling someone a "Jerk". That person is now on my ignore list.

This is just wrong.

Skeptcism and critical thinking applied to the real world produce much safer results than beliefs. Want an example? Here's one- the people who keep living at dangerous areas subjected to flash floods, mudslides, etc. having faith in "god's will". Want another one? The folks who tried to fly ignoring aerodynamics. If it weren't for critical thinking we would still be using flint tools.

So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

You have not been able to demonstrate the "timely truth" of any of your claims about UFOs and ancient civilizations; I and other people have in many cases provided you with explanations about the "enigmas" you posted. Explanations you choose to forget and/or ignore. You should at least consider the fact that if we once showed you to be wrong in some claim you made, maybe we are also right again.

I AM your timely truth.

So, since you seem to hold many answers and exceptional wisdom and knowledge, I challenge you now.

Prove my skydemons scenario is flawed.

Prove my explanations about the implausibility of an ancient civilization with technology above or even equal to ours are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why there are no hidden undersea civilizations are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why a civilization somewhere else in the solar system is implausible are wrong.

If you can't, then consider that blind belief when employed in the real world is dangerous, and I suggest you keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary. Feel free to call me a jerk for calling you on that.

I am not at all interested in proving any of your negatives.

[King of the Americas]

Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140

Not even close buddy...

And I also guarantee they used air hammers on the first series, which would count as 'advanced technology'.

I said do it with modern hand tools...

I'll buy a new stick of lip balm, and leave it unopened, just for you. They keep, right?

[King of the Americas]

How is that statue of David coming along? What's that you say? You can't do it? So to you it must have been done by aliens.

Do you really think the statue of David was created by aliens?

David was marble, one object, and took one of the world's master sculptures 3 years to finish carving and polishing.

I have every appreciation for the work it takes to accomplish that task.

What your lying ignorance refuses to see is that the work there represents 100 Michelangelos working a decades, OR some 'advanced technology' that could mass produce these things.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.

[carlitos]

What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

As I noted before, your use of quotes doesn't help here. Are you being facetious? Why couldn't the Tiwanaku field an army of master masons? That's what I would do if I wanted a cool temple built.

YOU are lying by attributing "aliens" to anything I've said. Please stop.
I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

Wait a minute, we are playing "let's pretend" and all the anecdotes are true. Therefore, given the myriad anecdotes I have heard, there are aliens from other planets in flying saucers. What's your beef?

I am claiming that the work present there represents either an army of master masons, or a an advanced technology to mass produce these stones legos.
False dilemma. Even so, do me a favor and check your goalposts on wheels, and ask "what size is an army" vs. "what size was the population of Tiwanaku" and let me know what your exact claim is. Big things got built in just about every ancient civilization. Masonry is not new.

I do not believe that 100% of the stones there are sandstone due to conflicting reports and the fact that there are diorite and granite quarries in Bolivia, as well as sandstone. I think it is 'likely' that some of the stones are not sandstone.
There are no conflicting reports. There are actual blocks carved out of sandstone, and there are UFO / whatever credulous websites claiming a bunch of nonsense. This includes you. In any case, what you believe has no bearing at all on objective reality. This would be further proven by wasting everyone's time with a moment skyward during the Olympics, so good luck with that.

[King of the Americas]

As I noted before, your use of quotes doesn't help here. Are you being facetious? Why couldn't the Tiwanaku field an army of master masons? That's what I would do if I wanted a cool temple built.


I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

...

There are no conflicting reports. There are actual blocks carved out of sandstone, and there are UFO / whatever credulous websites claiming a bunch of nonsense. This includes you. In any case, what you believe has no bearing at all on objective reality. This would be further proven by wasting everyone's time with a moment skyward during the Olympics, so good luck with that.

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.

[Pure Argent]

No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

No, it wouldn't have. Andrew Wiggin, myself, and others have already offered evidence counter to this in the "Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers" thread.

Those stones were entirely within the abilities of the local civilizations to craft.

So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

You still don't understand skepticism, do you?

We know that floods exist. We know that they happen occasionally.

I AM your timely truth.

No. You're just another woo in a long line of woos.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.

Grow up.

I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

He believes that the aliens are from Earth, and that they live in magic invisible cities that no one has ever found any evidence of whatsoever. He doesn't like the word "aliens" because it implies that they come from somewhere other than Earth.

Yes, it is really that silly.

[carlitos]

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.
Yes. And you disrespect the people who carved these stones in a masterful manner by assuming they couldn't do it because you couldn't do it. Moreover, you disrespect them by calling them "stone age" and by incredulously suggesting that, since the primitive people couldn't do it, therefore gods. It's ridiculous.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.Again with the quotes. Who is saying "omni" and about what? Great, I'll start using "gods" to refer to your hypothetical whatevers.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.Why must you move the goalposts? It's dishonest. You claimed that gods somehow helped carve these stones out of diorite or granite. The stones are made of sandstone. No one here cares what you would "wager," since you haven't a clue.

[dafydd]

No one here cares what you would "wager," since you haven't a clue.

That's the only thing that we have learned in this thread so far.

[RoboTimbo]

David was marble, one object, and took one of the world's master sculptures 3 years to finish carving and polishing.
Then you'd better get started soon. If you can't do it, you must believe that "gods" did it. That's the same thing you're saying about Pumapunku or you're a hypocrite.

I have every appreciation for the work it takes to accomplish that task.
You have no appreciation for the master masons that were at Pumapunku. Your derision of their efforts is palpable. You are a racist.

What your lying ignorance refuses to see is that the work there represents 100 Michelangelos working a decades, OR some 'advanced technology' that could mass produce these things.
Where did I lie or display ignorance? I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a hypocrite.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.
Your opinions on the matter are irrelevant. If you believe it is name calling, report the post.

[bruto]

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.

There do not have to be a slew of master masons out there. There must be a number of well trained stone workers, taught the technique of doing that job. The precision of the pattern may well be the work of a master, but the master need only provide the templates or plans for the work for it to be reproduced by someone skilled in the actual stone work. The very fact that so many of these stones were identical bespeaks a mass production and delegation of duties, not an army of individual masters. But even if there did need to be a number of master masons, what's the problem? We're looking at a settlement of something like 60 thousand people, in a culture where, quite obviously, stone work is considered a job and an art of the utmost importance. It's likely that masonry was a high status occupation. Why would we not see an unusual concentration of master masons in such a culture?

[Correa Neto]

Not even close buddy...

And I also guarantee they used air hammers on the first series, which would count as 'advanced technology'.
Not even close? You sure?
Left, Pumapunku, right, the sculptures of Peter Cook. His work seems much more complex.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/compare.jpg

And no, I have no idea if they used an air hammer or not. Sandstone, however, may be a relatively soft rock to carve. And since you asked for examples of similar carvings of straight angles done with modern tools...

I said do it with modern hand tools...
Nope, you actually wrote:

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

(my bolding).

And by the way there's also the smaller scuptures at the second linkie thingie.

I'll buy a new stick of lip balm, and leave it unopened, just for you. They keep, right?
Sorry, I'm straight; even if I weren't, please remind you should keep your kisses for the folks who made the sculptures.

[BTMO]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

[Stray Cat]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

I notice that Peter Cook spelt "arse" wrong too....

[Yeah_Right]

There is a podcast on Skeptoid on Puma Punku, KoTA, you should go give it a listen. http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4202.mp3

[Correa Neto]

That wasn't the point of the exercise. What you lack is an appreciation for what it takes to arrive at that finished product.

I have no doubt its hard; I have no doubts, however, that our ancestors could handle the task. Would take longer? Yes. Another reason for us to respect them. And also another reason for them to do it. "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair". A statement of their powers, of the power of their sovereigns and religion.


Petra, while impressive in its own right, is a different quality of work, from what Puma Punku represents.

Left, Tiwanaku/Pumapunku; right, Petra.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/sandstone.jpg

They have different styles. One can argue that Petra required more work and more specialized people to build, given the more intricate ornaments. Please explain why the folks who built Petra would not have been able to make Pumapunku-like structures and carvings. Or Petra's builders also had "advanced technology"?

What the f-word do you mean by the way by "advanced technology"? What are the standards?



No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

Not necessarily. A group of specialized workers under the a master would do the task. Its not exactly unheard of.



I think your attempts to make more of my errors are a waste of my time to address...

I will accept that I still live, healthy and often happy, and far from danger. I attribute my very survival to my ability to senses and reason. Having never failed me, I will continue to trust them.

You sure your perceptions never failed you? Never mistook the distance before taking a step? Never thought something was something else?

And by the way, I am talking about the many errors you make in interpretation and extrapolation when it comes down to ancient civilizations, etc.


That said, I have and will likely continue to make errors, in judgement or memory. As would be expected as part of the human condition. But to equate this with a 0% trustability rating is absurd.

Please show me who is saying you or anyone else have "0% trustability"?

If you are talking about your alleged UFO sighting, people are saying everybody makes mistakes sometimes, relating these mistakes to some UFO sightings and suggesting you, being human, may have been mistaken in your perception, interpretation and recollection.


I was not referring to you. And I heartily apologize for the inference. I just received a P.M. from the moderation folk for calling someone a "Jerk". That person is now on my ignore list.

No problem. Just be careful or you'll end up like Limbo, with a huge ignore list. Pointless on a debate forum, if one does not want to be challenged, better start a blog, IMHO.


So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

You don't get it do, you? The correct thing to do would to not put destiny in the hands of god. The right thing to do would be to look at the evidence (signs of previous floods, for example) and build houses somewhere else. There would be no need to run from the flood. Quite often you can´t run from flash floods and mudslides, as one can seen from the 800+ people who died here in Brazil a few days ago.


ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

See above. Embrace critical thinking and build your house somewhere else; embrace critical thinking and assume the responsability for your destiny.


I AM your timely truth.

Same thing the tele evangelists say. Provide reliable evidence, that's all I ask.

By the way, the odds are I already know the UFO litany you may try to recite. Been there, believed that and disbelieved that.


I am not at all interested in proving any of your negatives.

These are not exactly negatives. The fact is that you can not present an effective counter argumentation to any of them. No one can. Bold claim? Yes. Prove me wrong.

[Correa Neto]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

Nope. You are mistaken. They wrote "HUH!?" just before the arrival of the flood's tidal waves. It was turned upside down by the waters, which washed away the "!?". In the background, you can see parts of the "AAAAHHHHHH!" written by other aliens (which were a few meters ahead) as the waves hit them.

Tragic. :scared:

[bruto]

KotA: some day when you're looking for an interesting tourist experience, drop up to Barre, Vermont. In the cemeteries of that vicinity, you will find just what modern master stonecutters with either hand or powered tools (depending on age of stones) can do with a piece of rock.

Barre, if you're not familiar with the place, is or once was the center of a granite quarrying industry. The granite workers, many of them of Italian ancestry, were famous for their exquisite and detailed carving of stone much more obdurate than sandstone, and took especial pride in their monumental sculpture. The peak population of Barre over the last two centuries has been approximately 1/5 that of Puma Punku.

[King of the Americas]

...

No. You're just another woo in a long line of woos.



Grow up.



He believes that the aliens are from Earth, and that they live in magic invisible cities that no one has ever found any evidence of whatsoever. He doesn't like the word "aliens" because it implies that they come from somewhere other than Earth.

Yes, it is really that silly.

More NAME CALLING...tisk tisk

I demonstrated earlier in a war scenario where a 'skeptic' dismissed the initial report of a scout, needing 'verification' of the anecdotal finding that lightly guarded artillery attacks were about to commence.

I don't believe in aliens.

I believe there was a time in our ancient past, that we 'lost' knowledge. Or that knowledge and or way of life ascended into the heavens.

[King of the Americas]

Yes. And you disrespect the people who carved these stones in a masterful manner by assuming they couldn't do it because you couldn't do it. Moreover, you disrespect them by calling them "stone age" and by incredulously suggesting that, since the primitive people couldn't do it, therefore gods. It's ridiculous.

Again with the quotes. Who is saying "omni" and about what? Great, I'll start using "gods" to refer to your hypothetical whatevers.

Why must you move the goalposts? It's dishonest. You claimed that gods somehow helped carve these stones out of diorite or granite. The stones are made of sandstone. No one here cares what you would "wager," since you haven't a clue.

I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said it would have taken an army of master masons decades to do it. It is the amount of masterful work present that demands 'advanced technology' or every master mason alive at the time.

Capital "G"od, I think being that Monotheism thing, the first mover, literally the Big Bang, of which we are all a part of, and absolutely beholden to a set of action reaction principles.

Lower case "god" being how one sentient being might look upon one far more evolved. Say for example if Neanderthal man were to meet Nichole Kidman in sheer night gown, he might well see an "angel".

I haven't moved any goalpost. I don't think it is beyond reason to suggest that this site contains BOTH sandstone and other native rock like diorite.

[King of the Americas]

Then you'd better get started soon. If you can't do it, you must believe that "gods" did it. That's the same thing you're saying about Pumapunku or you're a hypocrite.


You have no appreciation for the master masons that were at Pumapunku. Your derision of their efforts is palpable. You are a racist.


Where did I lie or display ignorance? I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a hypocrite.


Your opinions on the matter are irrelevant. If you believe it is name calling, report the post.

I didn't mention "gods" in reference to the work there.

I have every appreciation for HOW MUCH MASTERFUL WORK is there, which you don't. And now you are calling me a racist...???

Is that what has to happen? Someone calls you a name, and you have to 'report' it, THEN the moderators take an action...?

So, it isn't what you post, but rather how someone else interprets your post, that determines whether or not you violated a policy...???

That's as stupid as skepticism... :rolleyes:

[RoboTimbo]

I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said it would have taken an army of master masons decades to do it. It is the amount of masterful work present that demands 'advanced technology' or every master mason alive at the time.

Please show your working on how you calculated this.

[BTMO]

So... anyway - the Egyptians and their obelisks...

[Hellbound]

This thread is like a beach ball.

[King of the Americas]

There do not have to be a slew of master masons out there. There must be a number of well trained stone workers, taught the technique of doing that job. The precision of the pattern may well be the work of a master, but the master need only provide the templates or plans for the work for it to be reproduced by someone skilled in the actual stone work. The very fact that so many of these stones were identical bespeaks a mass production and delegation of duties, not an army of individual masters. But even if there did need to be a number of master masons, what's the problem? We're looking at a settlement of something like 60 thousand people, in a culture where, quite obviously, stone work is considered a job and an art of the utmost importance. It's likely that masonry was a high status occupation. Why would we not see an unusual concentration of master masons in such a culture?

Actually, 'farming' was their main job... So that MP3 link stated.

It also stated that they still don't know how they did it... 'I' think it would REQUIRE one of two things:

-an army of master masons

OR

-advanced technology of some kind, now lost to us

I don't think there were enough people to keep the master masons bits sharp...

[RoboTimbo]

I didn't mention "gods" in reference to the work there.

I have every appreciation for HOW MUCH MASTERFUL WORK is there, which you don't. And now you are calling me a racist...???
No, you have NO appreciation whatsoever for the work there and refuse to credit the people who lived there with its construction. You prefer to believe aliens magicked it into existence to the human ingenuity and enterprise of the indigenous people. You think them beneath you. You are a racist.

Is that what has to happen? Someone calls you a name, and you have to 'report' it, THEN the moderators take an action...?
If you are unfamiliar with the way this forum works, I suggest you read the Membership Agreement.

So, it isn't what you post, but rather how someone else interprets your post, that determines whether or not you violated a policy...???

That's as stupid as skepticism... :rolleyes:
I think that comment says quite a bit about you.

[BTMO]

Actually, 'farming' was their main job... So that MP3 link stated.

It also stated that they still don't know how they did it... 'I' think it would REQUIRE one of two things:

-an army of master masons

OR

-advanced technology of some kind, now lost to us

I don't think there were enough people to keep the master masons bits sharp...

OR... a primitive form of an assembly line.

Each person performing their task well, but taken by itself, the task wasn't particularly complex.

It's a bit like building a car. I used to work with a guy who wasn't too smart some years ago. He then moved on to an automobile factory. He fitted bumper bars.

On high end 4wds.

So, a future civilisation could look back and say "there was either an army of incredibly clever people building these things (ie, one person building them from start to finish) or aliens did it" and miss the true story.

He simply put a piece in place and bolted it in. Then passed the task to the next person.

[carlitos]

I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said it would have taken an army of master masons decades to do it. It is the amount of masterful work present that demands 'advanced technology' or every master mason alive at the time.Yes, that's your claim. I have already asked for evidence of that. How many man-hours, what's the population, number of masons, how they would delegate work to unskilled labor, use templates, etc. Please show your math, otherwise you are just arguing from ignorance.

I haven't moved any goalpost. I don't think it is beyond reason to suggest that this site contains BOTH sandstone and other native rock like diorite.

I'm afraid you did. You said "stone age" and "granite" and now you're talking about master masons using metal tools on sandstone and diorite. Anyway, will you be posting evidence that the stones you posted, that look like sandstone, contain diorite?

Of course, with metal tools, man can carve diorite anyway, so can we stop pretending that gods did this?

[Pure Argent]

I demonstrated earlier in a war scenario where a 'skeptic' dismissed the initial report of a scout, needing 'verification' of the anecdotal finding that lightly guarded artillery attacks were about to commence.

And you obviously didn't pay any attention whatsoever to my response.

I don't believe in aliens.

No one cares. "Aliens" is easier to type than anything else. You're a big boy. Deal.

I believe there was a time in our ancient past, that we 'lost' knowledge. Or that knowledge and or way of life ascended into the heavens.

And you have no evidence to support this.

[carlitos]

No one cares. "Aliens" is easier to type than anything else. You're a big boy. Deal.

To be fair, "gods" is pretty easy to type. :)

[Pure Argent]

To be fair, "gods" is pretty easy to type. :)

My "g" key is broken.

*rimshot*

[bruto]

Actually, 'farming' was their main job... So that MP3 link stated.

It also stated that they still don't know how they did it... 'I' think it would REQUIRE one of two things:

-an army of master masons

OR

-advanced technology of some kind, now lost to us

I don't think there were enough people to keep the master masons bits sharp...

Saying "we don't know how they did it" is not the same thing as "we can't do it now" or as "we can't figure out a way to do it." True enough, we cannot be sure just what techniques they used, but that's all it means. A city of 60 thousand has plenty of room for both farmers and masons, and, for that matter, for smiths to keep the tools sharp.

Even if it's hard to figure out exactly how these tasks were done, it's still much much more reasonable to surmise that they were done by very skilled human beings (a creature known to exist) than to conjure up a race of alien astronauts or gods or whatever you want to call them. Passing the buck on your ignorance gains you nothing in understanding.

Defaulting to "it must have been gods" every time you see something that's beyond your ability to do is a poor way of understanding and appreciating the great cultural artifacts of humanity. It's insulting, superciliously ethnocentric, and intellectually lazy.

[Zanders]

That's as stupid as skepticism... :rolleyes:

Please, stop embarrassing yourself. Why do you want to believe something so hard that you have to ignore all logical explanations? Why do you want so hard to believe in some sort of ancient "advanced technology"? (that there is no physical proof of ever existing)

I find life exciting enough just the way it is, no ancient astronauts needed.

[King of the Americas]

Could someone please point out where I said "aliens", "ancient astronauts", or anyone other than master human masons were responsible for these works?

[Zanders]

Could someone please point out where I said "aliens", "ancient astronauts", or anyone other than master human masons were responsible for these works?

Who are the "they" you are talking about then? A bunch of people that had super technology in the past that somehow disappeared? Do you think that they took their technology with them and are now responsible for the UFOs we see now?

Where is your good proof of super advanced technology from around the time? Don't show me the artifacts you claim were made with them, find me the technology.

[King of the Americas]

Please show your working on how you calculated this.

I didn't...

It was a very rough guesstimation.

[King of the Americas]

Who are the "they" you are talking about then? A bunch of people that had super technology in the past that somehow disappeared? Do you think that they took their technology with them and are now responsible for the UFOs we see now?

I don't know who they were, exactly. But they didn't disappear, they ascended. And yes, I think they took/have technology with them.

Where is your good proof of super advanced technology from around the time? Don't show me the artifacts you claim were made with them, find me the technology.

Why do you need the technology? Why isn't the result of that technology sufficient?

[Zanders]

I don't know who they were, exactly. But they didn't disappear, they ascended. And yes, I think they took/have technology with them.


And you base this on what evidence?


Why do you need the technology? Why isn't the result of that technology sufficient?

Because it isn't necessary and there is no proof that it ever existed.

[BTMO]

Left, Tiwanaku/Pumapunku; right, Petra.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/sandstone.jpg

They have different styles. One can argue that Petra required more work and more specialized people to build, given the more intricate ornaments. Please explain why the folks who built Petra would not have been able to make Pumapunku-like structures and carvings. Or Petra's builders also had "advanced technology"?

Been to Petra, impressive place. At least 4 civilisations have lived there...

The second one did most of the rock work you are talking about (from memory).

It is WELL worth a visit, and Jordan is a fantastic place!

[Stray Cat]

Why do you need the technology? Why isn't the result of that technology sufficient?
Because the result that you claim, is no different from what can be achieved without the advanced technology you are proposing. If there were any tell tale signs within the results that could be shown to be impossible to make using the tools we know were available, then you may have a case. But there isn't, so you don't.

[King of the Americas]

There is a podcast on Skeptoid on Puma Punku, KoTA, you should go give it a listen. http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4202.mp3

Did anyone else listen to this?

There are two different kinds of stones at the sight. The older being the more ornate made of andesite, and the largest newer ones being made of sandstone.

I don't and have not proposed "aliens" or "ancient astronauts" performed this task. Rather i have proposed that these work required an army of master masons or an advanced technology, now lost.

The amount of mastery level work would have required more than master level overseers... The work to be executed had to be perfect. This isn't free flow art, each piece had to be exactly like the next, indicating to me that it would have been easier to form some sort of mass production occurred.

[Zanders]

advanced technology, now lost.

Prove that such a thing ever existed. How many times do we have to ask this?

See this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6811333&postcount=679) post here

[Sean84]

I just realized something. Aliens can't look down. No necks. Once they're up there, they're up there and no amount of looking up will change that.

What? Have we finished playing "let's pretend" and moved on to banging our heads against a dead horse? There's advanced technology for that sort of thing nowadays.

[King of the Americas]

Saying "we don't know how they did it" is not the same thing as "we can't do it now" or as "we can't figure out a way to do it." True enough, we cannot be sure just what techniques they used, but that's all it means. A city of 60 thousand has plenty of room for both farmers and masons, and, for that matter, for smiths to keep the tools sharp.

Even if it's hard to figure out exactly how these tasks were done, it's still much much more reasonable to surmise that they were done by very skilled human beings (a creature known to exist) than to conjure up a race of alien astronauts or gods or whatever you want to call them. Passing the buck on your ignorance gains you nothing in understanding.

Defaulting to "it must have been gods" every time you see something that's beyond your ability to do is a poor way of understanding and appreciating the great cultural artifacts of humanity. It's insulting, superciliously ethnocentric, and intellectually lazy.

What I'd LOVE to see, is how much physical work, in how much time, it would take to re-create one of those stones.

We could, based on that figure, start to estimate how many man hours it would take to perform the same take with period appropriate tools to do the same work. Using techniques, we already know, we can arrive at how many master masons it would take (my 'army' guess of +100) to carve every block there (my guess decades).

If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

60,000 farmers didn't do that. They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job, and I am not sure they even had they wheel yet.

OR

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.

By 'advanced', I mean more developed than our current hand tool technology allows.

And I am NOT suggesting this came from without, it may well have been developed here, but it is gone now...

[Pure Argent]

If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?

We can. Why do we care?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

This sounds strikingly similar to Rodney's argument concerning the fact that no one has demonstrated to him, personally, that it is possible to raise a block up a thirty-foot ramp, and that therefore it is impossible, even though it has been demonstrated that the block could be raised up a fifteen-foot ramp.

They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job

No. Stone tools. We've been over this before.

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.

Argument from ignorance fallacy. Also a false dichotomy.

[King of the Americas]

Because the result that you claim, is no different from what can be achieved without the advanced technology you are proposing. If there were any tell tale signs within the results that could be shown to be impossible to make using the tools we know were available, then you may have a case. But there isn't, so you don't.

The result I am pointing at is removed stone, a quantifiable variable.

We can know how many farmers it would take to support how many stone masons.

Pick up a copper chisel, and get after it...

[Zanders]

What I'd LOVE to see, is how much physical work, in how much time, it would take to re-create one of those stones.

We could, based on that figure, start to estimate how many man hours it would take to perform the same take with period appropriate tools to do the same work. Using techniques, we already know, we can arrive at how many master masons it would take (my 'army' guess of +100) to carve every block there (my guess decades).

If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

60,000 farmers didn't do that. They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job, and I am not sure they even had they wheel yet.

OR

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.

By 'advanced', I mean more developed than our current hand tool technology allows.

And I am NOT suggesting this came from without, it may well have been developed here, but it is gone now...


The burden of proof is on you. Prove that they would need nonexistent super advanced technology that contradicts archaeological evidence, and then prove that the technology actually existed. Got any evidence of such technology other than relics you don't understand?

[RoboTimbo]

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

Let me know when you put tool to marble and recreate the statue of David.

[King of the Americas]

The burden of proof is on you. Prove that they would need nonexistent super advanced technology that contradicts archaeological evidence.

I've taken a carbide tipped tool to granite.

What kind of tool should I test on what kind of stone?

I'll save the dust, and we'll get an understanding as to how many hours it would take to remove 1 ounce of material. While I couldn't do the fine inner corner work, I am quite decent at roughing out material.

[Zanders]

I've taken a carbide tipped tool to granite.

What kind of tool should I test on what kind of stone?

I'll save the dust, and we'll get an understanding as to how many hours it would take to remove 1 ounce of material. While I couldn't do the fine inner corner work, I am quite decent at roughing out material.

So, you couldn't find any evidence of super advanced ancient technology? Thought so.

Sorry, I don't speculate about things that evidence implies don't exist. Please present evidence that it ever existed before I try to theorize about mysteries with it.

[King of the Americas]

Let me know when you put tool to marble and recreate the statue of David.

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make...

[RoboTimbo]

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make...

Have you changed your mind and now think that Puma Punka was built by its inhabitants, ordinary human beings?

[Zanders]

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make...

You are implying that if we don't know how to make it then it took some extraordinary means. It's quite a leap to make without evidence.

[Stray Cat]

The result I am pointing at is removed stone, a quantifiable variable.
We can know how many farmers it would take to support how many stone masons.
Pick up a copper chisel, and get after it...
Examples of intricate works from the same time period have been shown to you. The fact that various examples from around the world exist and from all the archeological digs, only tools that we would expect to be found have been found clearly points to those tools being the only ones available.

Many people over the years have tried to re-engineer the methods of carving and moving giant stones (Easter Island Moai Statues, Egyptian Pyramid blocks, Stonehenge Sarsen Stones to name a few) using only 'primitive' methods, so we know it is possible even if we don't know exactly how they did it.

As for your challenge of picking up a copper chisel. No thanks, I have done enough work that is regularly claimed by certain people to be beyond human capability so I know it is usually a failure on behalf of those making such claims to account for human ingenuity.

[Zanders]

We have one pretty good theory based on logical evidence, now what we really need is evidence of advanced ancient technology that's now lost ever existing.

Still waiting.

[King of the Americas]

Examples of intricate works from the same time period have been shown to you. The fact that various examples from around the world exist and from all the archeological digs, only tools that we would expect to be found have been found clearly points to those tools being the only ones available.

Many people over the years have tried to re-engineer the methods of carving and moving giant stones (Easter Island Moai Statues, Egyptian Pyramid blocks, Stonehenge Sarsen Stones to name a few) using only 'primitive' methods, so we know it is possible even if we don't know exactly how they did it.

As for your challenge of picking up a copper chisel. No thanks, I have done enough work that is regularly claimed by certain people to be beyond human capability so I know it is usually a failure on behalf of those making such claims to account for human ingenuity.

*Bock*Bock*Bock*Bock...(that's my best chicken noise)

[Stray Cat]

*Bock*Bock*Bock*Bock...(that's my best chicken noise)
"*Quack *quack *quack" is more appropriate.
Because if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

[King of the Americas]

"*Quack *quack *quack" is more appropriate.
Because if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

And if it can remove more than 4 gm of stone dust an hour, then it was "advanced technology"...

[Pure Argent]

And if it can remove more than 4 gm of stone dust an hour, then it was "advanced technology"...

Except that it wasn't. Stone chisels, like I said.

Stone is easily hard enough to cut stone. It's a simple matter to cut and smooth stone using other stone.

[King of the Americas]

Except that it wasn't. Stone chisels, like I said.

Stone is easily hard enough to cut stone. It's a simple matter to cut and smooth stone using other stone.

Wait...are you saying 'you' think they used 'stones' to do that work?

If THAT is your claim, then I'd argue here and now, that is impossible.

It would have taken more than a century to do that with 'other stones'.

[Zanders]

*Bock*Bock*Bock*Bock...(that's my best chicken noise)

Actually, you are the coward. You repeatedly refuse to present any evidence for ancient technology or advanced being who "ascended". I keep asking, you keep dodging. Clearly you have no good evidence other than the things we have found rational explanations for.

See this post, (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6811333&postcount=679) the first of many posts of mine asking for evidence.

And if it can remove more than 4 gm of stone dust an hour, then it was "advanced technology"...

Prove that such a thing ever existed.

And while you're at it, please respond to the post of mine I linked to asking what your evidence for the "ascension" was.


Still waiting.

[Stray Cat]

And if it can remove more than 4 gm of stone dust an hour, then it was "advanced technology"...
Or a Masonic Duck?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/cock-1.png

[Zanders]

Wait...are you saying 'you' think they used 'stones' to do that work?

If THAT is your claim, then I'd argue here and now, that is impossible.

It would have taken more than a century to do that with 'other stones'.


After your misinformation about Puma Punku and other such artifacts, forgive me if I am a little reluctant to take your word for it.

[King of the Americas]

Actually, you are the coward. You repeatedly refuse to present any evidence for ancient technology or advanced being who "ascended". I keep asking, you keep dodging. Clearly you have no good evidence other than the things we have found rational explanations for.

...


Still waiting.

If we have a paved road, but no paving machine, how might we surmise it was created?

We could say it was laid 'by hand'...? 20 men mixed pea-gravel with hot tar, and spooned shovels of it evenly across the road's surface, as another 20 men operated hand-tampers, to flatten and smooth the surface. The 40 men likely took about 2 days to do it...

OR MAYBE

There is or was an advance paving machine, that took far fewer people to operate, and it was faster.

We have 100 miles of paved road that popped up over the weekend, near a town that can only feed 50 people a day, how did the road get built?

REMEMBER, the road paver hasn't been found.

[King of the Americas]

After your misinformation about Puma Punku and other such artifacts, forgive me if I am a little reluctant to take your word for it.

What misinformation...?

[Zanders]

If we have a paved road, but no paving machine, how might we surmise it was created?

We could say it was laid 'by hand'...? 20 men mixed pea-gravel with hot tar, and spooned shovels of it evenly across the road's surface, as another 20 men operated hand-tampers, to flatten and smooth the surface. The 40 men likely took about 2 days to do it...

OR MAYBE

There is or was an advance paving machine, that took far fewer people to operate, and it was faster.

We have 100 miles of paved road that popped up over the weekend, near a town that can only feed 50 people a day, how did the road get built?

REMEMBER, the road paver hasn't been found.


This place is no paved road. Quit going in circles.

Stop running away and present your evidence of advanced technology beyond, "I don't understand it, therefor it must have been something illogical that we have no proof of existing". This is all speculative nonsense.

It's just as logical as me saying that it was done by magical time-traveling elves that crafted them with their powers. There is just as much proof for those as the advanced technology.

What misinformation...?

Well, first off you got it's date completely wrong. And then you talked about Atlantis without having any idea what the origin of the Atlantis concept was. You aren't the most thorough.

[BTMO]

If we have a paved road, but no paving machine, how might we surmise it was created?

We could say it was laid 'by hand'...? 20 men mixed pea-gravel with hot tar, and spooned shovels of it evenly across the road's surface, as another 20 men operated hand-tampers, to flatten and smooth the surface. The 40 men likely took about 2 days to do it...

OR MAYBE

There is or was an advance paving machine, that took far fewer people to operate, and it was faster.

We have 100 miles of paved road that popped up over the weekend, near a town that can only feed 50 people a day, how did the road get built?

REMEMBER, the road paver hasn't been found.

OR... 20,000 men did it, each one contributing his little piece to the overall process.

[King of the Americas]

This place is no paved road. Quit going in circles.

Stop running a away and present your evidence of advanced technology beyond, "I don't understand it, therefor it must have been something illogical that we have no proof of existing".

I DO 'understand the work present', YOU don't.

What we have here is work for 100 master masons to work full time for decades, in a culture that was a farming one...

This means, there's a missing paver, or stone former as it were.

[Zanders]

I DO 'understand the work present', YOU don't.

What we have here is work for 100 master masons to work full time for decades, in a culture that was a farming one...

This means, there's a missing paver, or stone former as it were.


Where is your proof that there was ever such technology? Are their writings about? Are there fossilized pieces of it? Where is the proof?

I keep asking and all you can say is "It's so complex, I don't understand how they could have made it".

[GeeMack]

What we have here is work for 100 master masons to work full time for decades, in a culture that was a farming one...


You keep saying that without any support other than your self proclaimed ignorance. Got anything else?

[King of the Americas]

OR... 20,000 men did it, each one contributing his little piece to the overall process.

I think the work is an example of fewer skilled hands, not more novice ones.

[Zanders]

You keep saying that without any support other than your self proclaimed ignorance. Got anything else?

It's possible he lifted it from one of the UNEXPLAINED MYSTERY sites that had the place dated wrong.

[King of the Americas]

Where is your proof that there was ever such technology? Are their writings about? Are there fossilized pieces of it? Where is the proof?

I keep asking and all you can say is "It's so complex, I don't understand how they could have made it".

I've never said that.

I have repeatedly said I KNOW what it takes to remove stone, by hand, YOU DON'T

This culture had no written language...which would make passing very specific plans from a master builder down to a subordinate, difficult.

[Zanders]

I've never said that.

I have repeatedly said I KNOW what it takes to remove stone, by hand, YOU DON'T

This culture had no written language...which would make passing very specific plans from a master builder down to a subordinate, difficult.

I have a good idea. Why not take this to an archaeologist forum? I'm sure they would have a lot of great info to share with you.

Now, physical proof of the technology existing. Please show it to me, I really want to see it. There had to be some sort of evidence left behind if they used it there. Or how about that proof of them ascending and their technology going with them?

[Stray Cat]

We have 100 miles of paved road that popped up over the weekend, near a town that can only feed 50 people a day, how did the road get built?
Sorry I missed the bit that said Puma Punku was built in a weekend.

Have you any idea how long it took to build?

[King of the Americas]

*"This man is dead from a gun shot wound."

"Where's the gun?"

*"We haven't found the gun, yet."

"Then how do you know it was a gun shot?

*"Well we've got this hole, a bullet, and powder burns."

"So, SHOW me the gun."

*"We haven't found it yet."

"THEN HE WASN'T SHOT, NOT WITH A GUN, AT LEAST!"

[King of the Americas]

Sorry I missed the bit that said Puma Punku was built in a weekend.

Have you any idea how long it took to build?

I DIDN'T EVER say any such thing about Puma Punku.

I said it would take working by 'hand'...100 master masons working decades.

OR

less time with 'advanced technology'

[Yeah_Right]

Did anyone else listen to this?

There are two different kinds of stones at the sight. The older being the more ornate made of andesite, and the largest newer ones being made of sandstone.

I don't and have not proposed "aliens" or "ancient astronauts" performed this task. Rather i have proposed that these work required an army of master masons or an advanced technology, now lost.

The amount of mastery level work would have required more than master level overseers... The work to be executed had to be perfect. This isn't free flow art, each piece had to be exactly like the next, indicating to me that it would have been easier to form some sort of mass production occurred.

I wonder if you actually listened to this podcast. The Parthenon was built a 1000 years before Puma Punku and was much more impressive, but no one ever thought there was anyone from an advanced civilization involved.

[King of the Americas]

I wonder if you actually listened to this podcast. The Parthenon was built a 1000 years before Puma Punku and was much more impressive, but no one ever thought there was anyone from an advanced civilization involved.

That is a subjective statement.

And, yes I did listen.

What kind of stones are there again?

[Zanders]

*"This man is dead from a gun shot wound."

"Where's the gun?"

*"We haven't found the gun, yet."

"Then how do you know it was a gun shot?

*"Well we've got this hole, a bullet, and powder burns."

"So, SHOW me the gun."

*"We haven't found it yet."

"THEN HE WASN'T SHOT, NOT WITH A GUN, AT LEAST!"


Nice, you assume that there is actually evidence that a specific kind of device you don't even know exists did it, when there are already good enough explanation being offered. Oh, and there is such thing as something we don't know yet, without assuming it was something that pretty much violates all facts that we know. We know that guns exists, and we know how they work.

If we have no idea how they did it, why speculate that it was something so absurd?

Now, there is no proof of such a thing as this ancient super technology, so there is no reason to assume it existed based on one artifact you don't understand.


Oh, and where is your proof of that ascension I keep asking about? Why are you avoiding answering? And how about some proof that some sort of super technology disappeared with them.

[GeeMack]

I DIDN'T EVER say any such thing about Puma Punku.

I said it would take working by 'hand'...100 master masons working decades.

OR

less time with 'advanced technology'


So where are we? You don't know who built it. You don't know what it was made from. You don't know how it was built. You don't know how long it took. You don't know how many people were involved. You don't know what tools they used. You don't know how long it would take to do it today. You don't know how many people it would require to do it today. You don't know what tools it would take to do it today.

So you pretty much admit to not knowing anything about it at all. And how was it again that was supposed to translate into evidence in support of something?

[Zanders]

So where are we? You don't know who built it. You don't know what it was made from. You don't know how it was built. You don't know how long it took. You don't know how many people were involved. You don't know what tools they used. You don't know how long it would take to do it today. You don't know how many people it would require to do it today. You don't know what tools it would take to do it today.

So you pretty much admit to not knowing anything about it at all. And how was it again that was supposed to translate into evidence in support of something?

He doesn't know how or who made it, but he's CERTAIN they couldn't have done it. So it must have been super technology that they carried away when they "Ascended" (still waiting for an explanation of where you got that)

"Wow, that's impressive. I wish we knew how they built it. It's really impressive"
"It was ancient super technology that they once possessed. It had to be, I know no other way it could be done. It was most likely taken away with them when they ascended."
"But why super technology?"
"Because, it had to be"
"Is there any sign that such a thing existed?"
"IT HAD TO"

[Stray Cat]

I DIDN'T EVER say any such thing about Puma Punku.
I said it would take working by 'hand'...100 master masons working decades.
OR
less time with 'advanced technology'

And was the place built in less than decades?

Something as simple (in comparison) as Stonehenge took centuries to develop into the grand monument it was (and they never even got around to putting the roof on).

The Sagrada Família (Gaudi Cathedral) still isn't finished, they've been on with that for over 100 years and they think it will take another decade at least to complete it.

[bruto]

I've taken a carbide tipped tool to granite.

What kind of tool should I test on what kind of stone?

I'll save the dust, and we'll get an understanding as to how many hours it would take to remove 1 ounce of material. While I couldn't do the fine inner corner work, I am quite decent at roughing out material.

I would guess forged bronze and sandstone. Of course you would have to know how to use the tools, and what configuration of tools to make for the job, which neither I nor you know at the moment, but I think it reasonable to assume the ancient masons did. I think it's also reasonable to speculate that the precisely carved and nearly identical sandstone blocks could have been done by well trained workers provided with tools and templates.

For the harder stones, which were fitted but not so intricately carved, I've seen demonstrations of how the precise fitting of these or the famous Inca stones could be done with stone tools used just right. It's not as high-tech as you'd think.

I find it quite easy to believe that a community of the size in question could have supported a hundred master masons in a job that took decades. Many grand structures and projects take a long time to complete.

[bruto]

So where are we? You don't know who built it. You don't know what it was made from. You don't know how it was built. You don't know how long it took. You don't know how many people were involved. You don't know what tools they used. You don't know how long it would take to do it today. You don't know how many people it would require to do it today. You don't know what tools it would take to do it today.

So you pretty much admit to not knowing anything about it at all. And how was it again that was supposed to translate into evidence in support of something?His evidence appears to be that he once tried to sculpt some granite and ruined his chisel. If you're looking for the sharpest tool in the shed, the King is not carrying it.

[Marcus]

I don't know who they were, exactly. But they didn't disappear, they ascended. And yes, I think they took/have technology with them.
This is so vague, it's just meaningless. You don't know who they were, and don't know where they went. They "ascended". Perhaps they went to the moon? Obviously not, it's well observed. You refuse to make any further guesses, perhaps you have seen that each one can be debunked. There is no place in the solar system for them to hide, you really need biblical age goat herders to think of "the heavens" as some mysterious unknown.



Why do you need the technology? Why isn't the result of that technology sufficient?
It would be if we had any results of advanced technology, but all we have is skilled masonry.

[BTMO]

I don't know who they were, exactly.

Just for fun, I suggest we refer to them from now on as the ET Corn Gods.

(pause for laughter from the old timers and cognoscenti)

[Elizabeth I]

Just for fun, I suggest we refer to them from now on as the ET Corn Gods.

Seconded.

[RoboTimbo]

*"This man is dead from a gun shot wound."

"Where's the gun?"

*"We haven't found the gun, yet."

"Then how do you know it was a gun shot?

*"Well we've got this hole, a bullet, and powder burns."

"So, SHOW me the gun."

*"We haven't found it yet."

"THEN HE WASN'T SHOT, NOT WITH A GUN, AT LEAST!"

This would be closer to your scenario:

"This man is dead."

"How did he die?"

"I don't know. There are no marks on him. It must be 750 giraffes came in through the window and sucked the oxygen out of the room."

[Stray Cat]

Before ascending to we don't know where....

[King of the Americas]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?

[EHocking]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)No, it is not.
OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?There is not even partial evidence for this.

It is purely fantastical conjecture on your part.

"goddidit" is not a logical or scientific proposal

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens,Show evidence for the "heavens" where these mythical beings might reside. and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?Since these proposition have no bearing on known evidence, let alone "truth", there is little further to conjecture.

[King of the Americas]

No, it is not.
There is not even partial evidence for this.

It is purely fantastical conjecture on your part.

"goddidit" is not a logical or scientific proposal

Show evidence for the "heavens" where these mythical beings might reside.Since these proposition have no bearing on known evidence, let alone "truth", there is little further to conjecture.

No, it isn't evidence, or no there is no "lost knowledge or civilizations"?

Fanciful conjecture, OR the most like explanation for the oldest stuff, being the most difficult?

"goddidit" is NOT my argument.

An earlier more capable version of someone did it, but they are gone now.

I don't know where they are, so I can't tell you where to look...I can only point you toward the heavens. If we were standing on the south bank of the Red River, I'd point you the north and west, at sunset.

[King of the Americas]

This is so vague, it's just meaningless. ...


It would be if we had any results of advanced technology, but all we have is skilled masonry.

How could I possibly be specific???

It is the AMOUNT of mastery level work present that is at odds with the people and time needed to do something like that.

Normal workers, applying normal hand tools may not have done it. The structural and dimensional accuracy LOOKS like the work of something mass produced, by an as of yet undetermined nature BUT DEFINITELY ADVANCED.

This is not novice masonry...and there's too much of it to do WITHOUT WRITTEN LANGUAGE.

Someone in the ancient past had more knowledge and ability than we give them credit for, and they are gone.

[Marcus]

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.


Venus? Io? The asteriods? "The heavens" is a phrase someone 2,000 years ago would use if they were completly ignorant of what the solar system contained, or even that there was a solar system.

[King of the Americas]

Venus? Io? The asteriods? "The heavens" is a phrase someone 2,000 years ago would use if they were completly ignorant of what the solar system contained, or even that there was a solar system.

IIIIIIIIII

Doooooooooon't

KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW...

[Marcus]

How could I possibly be specific???

It is the AMOUNT of mastery level work present that is at odds with the people and time needed to do something like that.

Normal workers, applying normal hand tools may not have done it. The structural and dimensional accuracy LOOKS like the work of something mass produced, by an as of yet undetermined nature BUT DEFINITELY ADVANCED.


This is not novice masonry...and there's too much of it to do WITHOUT WRITTEN LANGUAGE.

Someone in the ancient past had more knowledge and ability than we give them credit for, and they are gone.
You are the only one here not giving the builders credit for their knowledge and ability. They were just as smart as we are. They didn't have our technology, but they didn't need it, they were carving stone, not building skyscrapers or aircraft.

[EHocking]

No, it isn't evidence, or no there is no "lost knowledge or civilizations"?Both.
The stonework at Puma Punko offers no evidence for any of your fantacies.
There is no evidence for lost knowledge.

Now, lost civilisations, there is evidence for, and it shows, not so much that knowledge is lost, rather that knowledge and techniques are replaced by better techniques. e.g. the Pharonic Egyptian period was stone-age technology, on being over-run, this technology was replaced with bronze-age tech, and a subsequent empire smashing replaced that with iron-age tech.Fanciful conjecture, OR the most like explanation for the oldest stuff, being the most difficult?You compare stacking some blocks in a pyramid shape to a man walking on the moon and declare that the former is the most difficult?

Stone Age technology has nothing on what we can build these days.
"goddidit" is NOT my argument.god, higher beings, aliens, angels - all purile and childish romanticism, springing from argument from ignorance and a refusal to accept evidence presented to you.

This approach is evident in posts on other subjects.An earlier more capable version of someone did it, but they are gone now.There is absolutely no evidence for such a fantasy.I don't know where they are, so I can't tell you where to look...I can only point you toward the heavens. If we were standing on the south bank of the Red River, I'd point you the north and west, at sunset.i.e., goddidit...

[Marcus]

IIIIIIIIII

Doooooooooon't

KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW...
Of course you don't. You can't look around and speculate about a place where they might be because there isn't any. How much easier it is to just throw your hands up and say "the heavens" than to learn more about our neighborhood and discover that your corn gods simply aren't there.

[Correa Neto]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.
...snip...
You know, Star Trek: Voyager already dealt with this. The Voth, sentient dinosaurs, are living on the other side of the galaxy now and completely forgot about their Terran origins. One of the few really good Voyager episodes, by the way.

However, here, at the real world, there are absolutely no evidence pieces to back the existence of this species and their lost civilization.

Think about this:

Suppose the civilization never was composed by too many specimens and lived at a single city. Lets suppose this city was about the size of an average metropolis of our days, with something between 5 to 10 million individuals. Oh, yes, sure, such a city could have been erased from the face of the Earth or lay hidden somewhere under layers of sediment, volcanic ash, etc. Sor far so good, eh? Now, of course, comes the catch.

Consider now what it takes to build an mantain a city. It must have a "ring" of farms to provide food for its people. The area to be erased increased considerably. But wait, it gets worse for you especulation.

What else it takes? Buildings, vimanas, computers, tools of all sorts, all these things must be made of something. Any technological civilization must harvest natural resources and this leaves marks behind. Here's a small list of what is needed (not in order of importance):
Limestone, sand, gravel, coal, oil, Fe, Al, Cu, Mn, Mg, Ni, Pb, Zn, Li, Cd, REE, U, Nb, K, Na, Be, Hg, [add lots of other elements here]. Without these substances, there are no civilizations with advanced technology. These resources are and have always been scattered around the world. Any advanced civilization would need to spread at least across a continent to mine all these resources. And depending on the continent, it would not have access to certain ores. In doubt? USA is a hell of a big country, technologically advanced and rich in ores, right? despite this fact, within its territory, it would not find all the resources it needs. The nearest Nb source, for example, is at Canada. And if you are reading the news, you are probably aware of something related to REE production and China. Can you see now how big such a civilization would be and how unlikely it would be for us to miss its tracks?

Are the bad news over? No, there's more. What else it takes? Energy. Oil reffineries, coal plants, thermoelectrical power plants, nuclear power plants, solar pannels, wind farms, tidal/wave energy plants, geothermal stations, you name it. Where are their remains? Oh, don't forget you must mine the materials to build them all.

Over now? Nope. This civilization and the species which built it, evolved here, right? Where are the remains? Where are its fossils? Where are the fossils say, of dinosaurs or marsupials, showing increasing brain size and versatile hands?

Am I done? Not yet. This civilization was more advanced than ours, isn't it? Hey, we can foresee some catastrophes, can't we? We can issue volcanic eruptions and tsunami warnings, we can map risk areas, locate asteroids in collision course. We can also take measures to minimize losses. But what about "them"? So advanced and were wiped out? Oh, they "ascended"... Hell, why not just duck inside a bunker and move back to surface when the dust settled? Easier than "ascend to the heavens".

Done now? No. Only my patience run out. I wrote this f-wording wall of text for nothing, since you, KotA, will refuse to notice the gapping holes it shows in your proposals, beliefs, world views, whatever. Just like the other WOTs I posted, it will be ignored, since you seem to ignore the material (or pretend it does not exist) which contradicts your beliefs.

I won't even bother correcting the typos.

[King of the Americas]

You are the only one here not giving the builders credit for their knowledge and ability. They were just as smart as we are. They didn't have our technology, but they didn't need it, they were carving stone, not building skyscrapers or aircraft.

I think you are missing the point of historical advancement and evolution...

We are suppose to be improving along the way, through natural selection becoming better more specialized, more capable.

We are a growing expanding thing. We learn from our mistakes on yesterday, and build upon them.

But, evidence would suggest, that we also forget...REALLY big important stuff, like how to set a 2 ton piece of perfect hewn stone in place ever 9 seconds to build the Great Pyramid in 20 years.

The time it would have taken to carve those with simple hand tools is something you are failing to grasp...

[King of the Americas]

You know, Star Trek: Voyager already dealt with this. The Voth, sentient dinosaurs, are living on the other side of the galaxy now and completely forgot about their Terran origins. One of the few really good Voyager episodes, by the way.

However, here, at the real world, there are absolutely no evidence pieces to back the existence of this species and their lost civilization.

Think about this:

Suppose the civilization never was composed by too many specimens and lived at a single city....

...

Done now? No. Only my patience run out. I wrote this f-wording wall of text for nothing, since you, KotA, will refuse to notice the gapping holes it shows in your proposals, beliefs, world views, whatever. Just like the other WOTs I posted, it will be ignored, since you seem to ignore the material (or pretend it does not exist) which contradicts your beliefs.

I won't even bother correcting the typos.

And what if the following civilizations, built upon, and utterly cannibalized the previous, buildings, resources, and technologies, building over or atop ancient cities, overwriting the past with a new sense of self. It would be easy to do with no written language...

And in fact isn't this exactly what we find, cities built atop cities, the Great Pyramid stripped of its polished limestone covering, building techniques utterly lost to time itself.

We forgot, there was once a greater people here...

[Marcus]

I think you are missing the point of historical advancement and evolution...

We are suppose to be improving along the way, through natural selection becoming better more specialized, more capable.

We are a growing expanding thing. We learn from our mistakes on yesterday, and build upon them.

But, evidence would suggest, that we also forget...REALLY big important stuff, like how to set a 2 ton piece of perfect hewn stone in place ever 9 seconds to build the Great Pyramid in 20 years.

The time it would have taken to carve those with simple hand tools is something you are failing to grasp...
You're assuming that we're significantly smarter now, but we're not in this very recent(evolutionarily speaking) time frame of 2,000 years or so.

Most of this post I agree with though. We certainly have fallen out of practice building pyramids with period tools,they had centuries of practice and were very good at it. No doubt we have forgotten many of the techniques they used. You have to give them credit for their skills. Or do you? No doubt you wish to dis them and give credit to the corn gods.

[bruto]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?

I see no evidence that any of the knowledge has been lost. There are, no doubt, many ancient artifacts that show extraordinary skill and effort, but I have yet to see any reason they could not be duplicated if anyone thought it necessary to expend the time and resources. Nobody these days would be likely to spend hundreds of years building a cathedral of stone with nothing but hand tools either, but this is not because we have lost some core capability. We no longer think the job worth doing in that way, and no longer practice the skills required.

Those ancient stones are very impressive. The ancient artisans who made them are admirable. But I have seen no reliable evidence that anyone with masonry skill and a lot of time to kill has attempted to reproduce the kind of work done with the stones of Puma Punku and found the task impossible. I honestly don't know what, if anytyhing, has been tried, because most of what I've seen so far is a bunch of crackpot mystical websites whose prevailing attitude is "wow, that's awesome. I can't imagine how they did it. It must have been [godsalienssuperiorbeingsorwhatever] because we, (who, it is implied, are the highest beings we know) can't figure it out.

Find me a reliable account of a master mason trying and failing to work sandstone in the manner of Puma Punku, and maybe then we can talk of lost knowledge.

[Akhenaten]

Just for fun, I suggest we refer to them from now on as the ET Corn Gods.

(pause for laughter from the old timers and cognoscenti)





Rut, rut, rut Tut, tut, tut

[King of the Americas]

I see no evidence that any of the knowledge has been lost.

...

Find me a reliable account of a master mason trying and failing to work sandstone in the manner of Puma Punku, and maybe then we can talk of lost knowledge.

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.

[Yeah_Right]

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.

Although saying we don't know how it was done, doesn't require an immediate leap to master masons that belong to ancient civliations with great tools. The reason it is lost, is that we don't rely on carving great slabs of stone to build modern structures. Wherea in those days that is all they had, so the probably came up with some inventive ideas that we don't have anymore. Perhaps if you really sat and thought about it, you could come up with rather mundane ideas of how it could be done.

In that podcast, Brian Dunning said that he was attempting to recreate the automobile differential, and since he couldn't do it, he surmised that it couldn't be done, even though the diffential existed. And when he finally saw one, he realized that he had not thought of enough possiblities of how the device was constructed. And that is how the the people at Tihuancu did it, they just had stone to work with, so they had to come up with some varied ideas of how to construct Puma Punku. And also they had a lot of people and time to put the thing together. I know that isn't as sexy as invoking the idea of great civlizations or whatever it is you think were the builders of that structure, but it is a lot closer to how it was really done.

[King of the Americas]

Although saying we don't know how it was done, doesn't require an immediate leap to master masons that belong to ancient civliations with great tools. The reason it is lost, is that we don't rely on carving great slabs of stone to build modern structures. Wherea in those days that is all they had, so the probably came up with some inventive ideas that we don't have anymore. Perhaps if you really sat and thought about it, you could come up with rather mundane ideas of how it could be done.

In that podcast, Brian Dunning said that he was attempting to recreate the automobile differential, and since he couldn't do it, he surmised that it couldn't be done, even though the diffential existed. And when he finally saw one, he realized that he had not thought of enough possiblities of how the device was constructed. And that is how the the people at Tihuancu did it, they just had stone to work with, so they had to come up with some varied ideas of how to construct Puma Punku. And also they had a lot of people and time to put the thing together. I know that isn't as sexy as invoking the idea of great civlizations or whatever it is you think were the builders of that structure, but it is a lot closer to how it was really done.

How to build a differential isn't "lost", just because HE doesn't know how to build/repair one. In fact, I could pull up plans to build ANY differential you'd like. On the other hand, NO ONE knows 'anymore' how they did what they did, so THAT KNOWLEDGE that was once known to man, is now LOST.

The leap to master masons isn't a leap at all. THOSE CUTS 'require' a master masons hands LOTS of them.

OR

an advanced now LOST technology

YOU are ignoring the amount of mastery level work.

[tsig]

The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

I don't see any popes around here so you can stop with the feet kissing.