Their Return

[tsig]

Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140


Loved the trees, bookmarked site. :thanks

[King of the Americas]

I don't see any popes around here so you can stop with the feet kissing.

ANYONE who could recreate one of those stones would deserve it MORE than any pope.

[Correa Neto]

And what if the following civilizations, built upon, and utterly cannibalized the previous, buildings, resources, and technologies, building over or atop ancient cities, overwriting the past with a new sense of self. It would be easy to do with no written language...

And in fact isn't this exactly what we find, cities built atop cities, the Great Pyramid stripped of its polished limestone covering, building techniques utterly lost to time itself.

See? My WOT was futile, as I predicted.

Against ignorance, the gods theselves contend in vain.

Yeah, I know. Should be a word other than "ignorance" but I am trying to keep it civil.

KotA, you insist in attempting to force-fit your fantasy in to the real world. You keep trying to find a gap to hide your lost golden-age civilization. The gap is way too small. Maybe you should consider such lost advanced civilization is not real.

I will not argue about pyramids. This topic has been beaten to death -again- recently.

I will, however, say five things (again, I think it will be useless so I won't even bother correcting typos and adding linkie thingies):

1. We are pretty good on detecting and understanding archeological sites which show a sucession of civilizations at the same site. Still, no evidence of this lost golden age.

2. Where the f-word are the tools created during this golden age? If the new civilization "cannibalized" materials from the older, these advanced tools would be priceless to the newcomers and kept as treasures, worship itens, etc. Where are these tools? Heck, even a kitchen steel knife would be a terrific thing to have if all you've got is bronze.

3. Who the f-word are you saying had no writing? Incas were also said to have nothing like writing, untill someone bothered looking at certain colored threads full of knots they kept. Now check the real (not the woo) age of Tiwanaku and connect the knots dots.

4. Try reading about experimental archeology. Quite often knowledge ("tricks of the trade") is lost; sometimes we no longer know how to use a certain tool. Someone had to test ho to create flint spears and axes, for example. Same is valid for carving stone. YOU may not know how it was made with the tools they had; this is not equal to advanced technology when compared to ours. It just means skills YOU do not have. Aztecs and Mayas, by the way, carved stones with obsidian tools. Precolumbian people performed surgery with obsidian tools. Could you do it? I bet not. Does it means they had advanced technology?

5. There are no evidence to back the catastrophe you propose. I am guessing you are sticking to the common 11Ky or 10Ky woolore date. Bring it back or forward as you will, something as huge as you want will be present only at the end of the Cretaceous. And since we have evidence of many smaller events, where the f-word is this recent woo catastrophe? Only in the woo minds.

We forgot, there was once a greater people here...

True. So great that anyone who attributes their works to someone/something else is disrespecting them.

If they could look in to the future, they would probably say something like:

"By Viracocha's hairs! Those guys live hundreds years after us, have tools we can't even wonder how they work but can't figure out how to carve stone! Have our seeds degraded with time?"

Or

"Our work was so great that the people who live after us think only the gods could have built them. We inspired awe and terror in the hearts of those who live after us!"

In this last case, I believe they would be proud, for their goals were achieved.

Ah, crap, no more wall of texts for you. Good information seems to have no use for you. You can stick to Rramjet's walls of crap since they fit better with you world view. Yeah. I'm tired.

[tsig]

I just realized something. Aliens can't look down. No necks. Once they're up there, they're up there and no amount of looking up will change that.

What? Have we finished playing "let's pretend" and moved on to banging our heads against a dead horse? There's advanced technology for that sort of thing nowadays.

Why yes, yes there is: :alien012:

[bruto]

We don't know how the "andesite" stones were cut. THEREFORE that knowledge is "lost".

Stop misrepresenting the work at Puma Punku.So what if we don't know how they did it? Are you sure nobody does? I have seen references to the techniques used in South America (among them, expanding wood wedges) that suggest the techniques were known and documented as far back as the sixteenth century. Andesite and its relatives have been worked by many civilizations in many different ways.

Forgetting how to do a task that is no longer needed is not the same thing as suggesting that some kind of superior knowledge has been irretrievably taken away by advanced beings. If you have some knowledge of true good faith efforts to duplicate the work (not just spectators saying "wow"), then provide it.

If there's a lost art here, it's more likely that of scholarship than stonework.

[tsig]

I wonder if you actually listened to this podcast. The Parthenon was built a 1000 years before Puma Punku and was much more impressive, but no one ever thought there was anyone from an advanced civilization involved.

It was built by white western males not by primitives in the jungle.:rolleyes::(:mad:

[Yeah_Right]

How to build a differential isn't "lost", just because HE doesn't know how to build/repair one. In fact, I could pull up plans to build ANY differential you'd like. On the other hand, NO ONE knows 'anymore' how they did what they did, so THAT KNOWLEDGE that was once known to man, is now LOST.

The leap to master masons isn't a leap at all. THOSE CUTS 'require' a master masons hands LOTS of them.

OR

an advanced now LOST technology

YOU are ignoring the amount of mastery level work.


I am afraid you missed the point, big surprise, Brian Dunning had never seen one before, and thus had not though of enough possibilities of how one could be built. So he erroneously assumed that even though they existed, they couldn't be built. Which is sort of what you're doing, you don't how they were built so you assume master masons and/or advanced technology. Why not think of how things like that could be built without resorting to master masons etc?

By the way, were these so called master masons not using advance technology and were they from the advanced civilization? Not quite clear on where you're coming from there.

[carlitos]

Great points Correa Neto. The reference to Ozymandias was apt.

[Yeah_Right]

It was built by white western males not by primitives in the jungle.:rolleyes::(:mad:


Oh yes, silly me.

[Zanders]

So, does the skeptical community accept that there IS or that there was "lost knowledge"...? Meaning is it possible that Man was once way more capable, then there was a great loss, possibly caused by some global catastrophe, and that history was forced to hit the reset button, per say? (*The two different kinds of stone work at Puma Punku being evidence of this.)

OR

Does skepticism dismiss that notion without absolute proof of it?

---

I propose that at some point in the past, there was on this earth, possibly interacting with early Homo Sapiens, a better/more technologically capable entity then we were. I do not suppose to know nor will I remark upon their origin. I hold only that Men 'looked up to them', and recorded their existence as soon as he could do so and continues even now to do so.

I propose, they are no longer 'here', but that they have ascended to the heavens, and by in large no longer interact with Man.

If these propositions hold truth, how and where might a global people invite 'them back down'?

Show me any evidence that some sort of ancient advanced technology existed. Anything. But you can't use things such as Puma Punku, I want actual remains, illustrations or writing about this technology. That stuff is all strangely absent.

[tsig]

How could I possibly be specific???

It is the AMOUNT of mastery level work present that is at odds with the people and time needed to do something like that.

Normal workers, applying normal hand tools may not have done it. The structural and dimensional accuracy LOOKS like the work of something mass produced, by an as of yet undetermined nature BUT DEFINITELY ADVANCED.

This is not novice masonry...and there's too much of it to do WITHOUT WRITTEN LANGUAGE.

Someone in the ancient past had more knowledge and ability than we give them credit for, and they are gone.

Looks like to you, to others, not so much.

[BTMO]

How could I possibly be specific???

It is the AMOUNT of mastery level work present that is at odds with the people and time needed to do something like that.

Normal workers, applying normal hand tools may not have done it. The structural and dimensional accuracy LOOKS like the work of something mass produced, by an as of yet undetermined nature BUT DEFINITELY ADVANCED.

This is not novice masonry...and there's too much of it to do WITHOUT WRITTEN LANGUAGE.

Someone in the ancient past had more knowledge and ability than we give them credit for, and they are gone.


And?

They were competant craftsmen. The skilled tradesmen used semi-skilled and unskilled workers and apprentices to support their activities, vastly multiplying their efforts.

I suspect in many cases, their actual lives depended on the quality of their work. It wasn't something they did as a hobby - it was something they did to stay alive, either through earning a living, through not being executed for sloppy work, or because they thought their god would smite them or the sun wouldn't come up if they cut corners (small pun intended)

There is no evidence of advanced technology in these sites, but there is plenty of evidence of appropriate technology.

Look at the Antikythera mechanism. No one (well, no one who knows what they are talking about) attribute this to advanced technology. It is unfreakinbelievably complex and beyond what we thought the ancient Greeks were capable of but (and this is the important bit) - but not outside of their known ability to work metal and perform complex calculations. It was the marrying of those two skills that make it stunning. I've seen this device in Athens, and it is truly amazing. I stood in jaw-dropped amazement just staring at it in the museum there.

The bottom line is your thought experiment is flawed. There is no credible evidence for ET Corn Gods (tee hee) visiting earth now or in the past. There is no evidence at all for ancient humans or anyone else "ascending" - outside of the Star Gate and Babylon 5 and Star Trek universes.

Here in the real world, things are a bit more pragmatic. People are now, and have always been, good with their hands. They make things. Clever things.

It started with fire and the wheel and got a lot more complex rapidly.

Deal with it.

[tsig]

And?

They were competant craftsmen. The skilled tradesmen used semi-skilled and unskilled workers and apprentices to support their activities, vastly multiplying their efforts.

I suspect in many cases, their actual lives depended on the quality of their work. It wasn't something they did as a hobby - it was something they did to stay alive, either through earning a living, through not being executed for sloppy work, or because they thought their god would smite them or the sun wouldn't come up if they cut corners (small pun intended)

There is no evidence of advanced technology in these sites, but there is plenty of evidence of appropriate technology.

Look at the Antikythera mechanism. No one (well, no one who knows what they are talking about) attribute this to advanced technology. It is unfreakinbelievably complex and beyond what we thought the ancient Greeks were capable of but (and this is the important bit) - but not outside of their known ability to work metal and perform complex calculations. It was the marrying of those two skills that make it stunning. I've seen this device in Athens, and it is truly amazing. I stood in jaw-dropped amazement just staring at it in the museum there.

The bottom line is your thought experiment is flawed. There is no credible evidence for ET Corn Gods (tee hee) visiting earth now or in the past. There is no evidence at all for ancient humans or anyone else "ascending" - outside of the Star Gate and Babylon 5 and Star Trek universes.

Here in the real world, things are a bit more pragmatic. People are now, and have always been, good with their hands. They make things. Clever things.

It started with fire and the wheel and got a lot more complex rapidly.

Deal with it.

Guess we need to use the CornDog transform on this:

I couldn't do it>couldn't be done by humans>notthealiens.

Ascended>descended using the rule a=de

[King of the Americas]

Looks like to you, to others, not so much.

Interesting that 'I' am the one with actual experience shaping stone...

[Marcus]

Interesting that 'I' am the one with actual experience shaping stone...
Look at it from the point of view of the craftsmen who shaped the stone. Hundreds of years of tradition. A master carver as a supervisor who no doubt had decades of experience. The craftsmen themselves brought up and trained in a culture which highly valued these skills. How many years have you spent in intensive training for this art? I just don't buy comparing you to these people.

[King of the Americas]

Look at it from the point of view of the craftsmen who shaped the stone. Hundreds of years of tradition. A master carver as a supervisor who no doubt had decades of experience. The craftsmen themselves brought up and trained in a culture which highly valued these skills. How many years have you spent in intensive training for this art? I just don't buy comparing you to these people.

THAT is the only view I am looking at it from. Pick up and tool, and gather some understanding...

[Zanders]

King of the Americas, I think that you missed my last post. I asked you to explain something I still don't understand.

[King of the Americas]

Show me any evidence that some sort of ancient advanced technology existed. Anything. But you can't use things such as Puma Punku, I want actual remains, illustrations or writing about this technology. That stuff is all strangely absent.

What would a 'working' scale model glider represent to you. What does that artifact tell you about those who made it?

The thing you are 'missing' is the level of precision, and how much of that work is at Puma Punku.

What you are looking for has been "LOST", which is my point. Whatever did that work was 'advanced'.

[Pure Argent]

What you are looking for has been "LOST", which is my point. Whatever did that work was 'advanced'.

Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.

[King of the Americas]

Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.
Repetition does not equal truth.

IGNORANCE of evidence is an argument.

[GeeMack]

IGNORANCE of evidence is an argument.


"Evidence" does not mean what you think it means.

[Zanders]

What would a 'working' scale model glider represent to you. What does that artifact tell you about those who made it?

The thing you are 'missing' is the level of precision, and how much of that work is at Puma Punku.

What you are looking for has been "LOST", which is my point. Whatever did that work was 'advanced'.

Where is the proof that there was any technology that went anywhere? Where is the proof that anyone "ascended" and took it with them? You are just filling in the gaps with what you think should be there.

How could all traces of it ever existing be lost while we have some sort of evidence of so many other things about their culture? You think there would be a hint that it existed other than masonry you can't explain (because you weren't there and didn't see how they did it)

[RoboTimbo]

Interesting that 'I' am the one with actual experience shaping stone...

You should have absolutely no problem with that statue of David then. How far along are you with it? Or do you still think aliens made it since you can't do it?

[bruto]

Interesting that 'I' am the one with actual experience shaping stone...According to your own account, you have only a small amount of actual experience shaping stone, and that a failure.

That said, I think one could probably label some of the work in question as "mass production." Most of the photos of these sites show that the huge andesite and other hard stone blocks, while quarried and cut in quantity, were not what you'd call "mass produced, but it appears that some of the sandstone blocks were carved to sufficient precision to be interchangeable, which is quite impressive, and could legitimately be called mass production. What you seem continually to discount here is the meaning of mass production: that large, complex and precise work can thus be done by specialist laborers without overall mastery.

Of course how you look at all this depends on what you mean by "advanced." The indigenous peoples of South America were advanced in many ways, certainly more so than the invading Spaniards cared to admit.
Considering the history of the conquest of South and Central America it's no wonder then that many details of how they did what they did must now be guessed, but this requires no scenario of mysteriously lost knowledge or advanced beings flying off in spacecraft. All it requires is for an entire continent's peoples to be overrun, their literature burned as heresy, and the population decimated by epidemics, murder and enslavement. And for that scenario we need not stretch the bounds of credulity, since we can read about it in recorded history.

[King of the Americas]

You should have absolutely no problem with that statue of David then. How far along are you with it? Or do you still think aliens made it since you can't do it?

I tell you what, if you supple the marble, I'll get started...

I think, given enough time I COULD do it. That said, I am admittedly going to take longer than 3 years to complete it.

Let me know when I can expect the stone to be delivered, and I'll move some stuff around to make room. ABSOLUTELY NO DISCOLORED FRACTURE MARKS, or I'll ship it back, regardless of the cost.

[Pure Argent]

I think, given enough time I COULD do it.

And the people who carved Puma Punku had plenty of time.

[RoboTimbo]

I tell you what, if you supple the marble, I'll get started...

I think, given enough time I COULD do it. That said, I am admittedly going to take longer than 3 years to complete it.

Let me know when I can expect the stone to be delivered, and I'll move some stuff around to make room. ABSOLUTELY NO DISCOLORED FRACTURE MARKS, or I'll ship it back, regardless of the cost.

I'm waiting for the sandstone blocks to arrive here first. How many of them are you sending? I'd suggest 20 to start.

While you're waiting, start with whatever rock you have handy and post a picture of your statue of David here. Remember, if you can't do it, that means that you think only aliens can.

[King of the Americas]

According to your own account, you have only a small amount of actual experience shaping stone, and that a failure.

...

Even my minimalistc experience is more than anyone here has noted. I HAVE used hand tools and 'advanced machines' to carve into granite. Once you hit a chisel with a hammer, and make a tiny bruise on a piece of granite, you will look at that masonry work differently.

I had no failures with my carving. Tools get blunted, the sofer the tool, the faster it happens. My carbide tipped tool needed sharpening twice in the 9 letters I carved.

Whoever built those stones had the ability to remove massive amounts of stone, with literally unbelievable precision. With no written language or metal tools, this would be an impossible feat.

Pick up a chisel and garner an understanding as to what that work represents.

[RoboTimbo]

Whoever built those stones had the ability to remove massive amounts of stone, with literally unbelievable precision. With no written language or metal tools, this would be an impossible feat.

Please show your working on how you arrived at this conclusion.

[King of the Americas]

And the people who carved Puma Punku had plenty of time.

Just not a writen language or metal tools...making the work take a REALLY REEEAAAALLLLY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

[King of the Americas]

Please show your working on how you arrived at this conclusion.

Here's a stone...

I want you to cut it 1 foot by 1 foot, 3 feet thick, with descending square holes, each one 1 inch deeper than the next, and the last one 3 inches from the edges. Each of the holes need to be 90 degrees, and the outter edges have to be exactly 1 foot wide, or we are gona have to toss it in the mock-up bin.

Get to work...

"Wait, how many holes where, again?"

Don't we have some cardboard templets or a note pad where I can write some of this down???

Sadly, "No."...

Are you seeing the proble here???

[RoboTimbo]

Here's a stone...

I want you to cut it 1 foot by 1 foot, 3 feet thick, with descending square holes, each one 1 inch deeper than the next, and the last one 3 inches from the edges. Each of the holes need to be 90 degrees, and the outter edges have to be exactly 1 foot wide, or we are gona have to toss it in the mock-up bin.

Get to work...

"Wait, how many holes where, again?"

Don't we have some cardboard templets or a note pad where I can write some of this down???

Sadly, "No."...

Are you seeing the proble here???

I think templates have been mentioned quite a few times in this thread. Did you miss each mention or do you not know what they are or how they are used?

[Sean84]

Well, I've seen enough REALLY REEEAAALLLY BIIIIIIIIIG words. Aliens must exist.

Now throw in some colors and I'll even LOOK UP for a while.

[Zanders]

Ok, say they had some super advanced technology that they used. Where did it go and how did it never leave a trace of existing? What is your proof that it was all erased from history and what is your proof that people "ascended" with it? You are just filling the gaps with what you want to be there.

How is a group of people taking all traces of a certain technology and "ascending" with it at all logical or based on any evidence? Please show it to me if you are going to keep claiming that.

[GeeMack]

Ok, say they had some super advanced technology that they used. Where did it go and how did it never leave a trace of existing? What is your proof that it was all erased from history and what is your proof that people "ascended" with it? You are just filling the gaps with what you want to be there.

How is a group of people taking all traces of a certain technology and "ascending" with it at all logical or based on any evidence? Please show it to me if you are going to keep claiming that.


Oh come on, Zanders. How can the guy answer that? You keep asking those hard questions, the ones that not only can't be answered without admitting how weak the believers' argument is, they can't even be acknowledged. Consequently the UFOlien faithful must rely on ignorance to maintain their belief. :p

[Zanders]

How is it at all logical to assume that people "ascended" and took technology with them? That's quite a leap with very little to support it other than a few relics that you think would require advanced technology. You make the leap to saying they had to ascend and take it with them because it is the only way to explain why there is no evidence for such a thing.

But which is more logical, that they were very skilled and had a very special way of crafting them that is now lost to us, or that they had super technology that there is no trace of left because they "ascended" (which might I add has never happened in recorded history, so there is little reason to beleive that such a thing happened in the past) with it.

If you can't answer any of my other questions, why don't you answer my one about what this "ascension" is and what your evidence for it is?

[bruto]

Even my minimalistc experience is more than anyone here has noted. I HAVE used hand tools and 'advanced machines' to carve into granite. Once you hit a chisel with a hammer, and make a tiny bruise on a piece of granite, you will look at that masonry work differently.

I had no failures with my carving. Tools get blunted, the sofer the tool, the faster it happens. My carbide tipped tool needed sharpening twice in the 9 letters I carved.

Whoever built those stones had the ability to remove massive amounts of stone, with literally unbelievable precision. With no written language or metal tools, this would be an impossible feat.

Pick up a chisel and garner an understanding as to what that work represents.

Why do you assume they had no metal tools? They used metal hardware to hold some of the stones together.

[carlitos]

Even my minimalistc experience is more than anyone here has noted. I HAVE used hand tools and 'advanced machines' to carve into granite. Once you hit a chisel with a hammer, and make a tiny bruise on a piece of granite, you will look at that masonry work differently.

I had no failures with my carving. Tools get blunted, the sofer the tool, the faster it happens. My carbide tipped tool needed sharpening twice in the 9 letters I carved.

Whoever built those stones had the ability to remove massive amounts of stone, with literally unbelievable precision. With no written language or metal tools, this would be an impossible feat.

Pick up a chisel and garner an understanding as to what that work represents.

Why do you assume they had no metal tools? They used metal hardware to hold some of the stones together.

He has claimed that these were made in the Stone Age. They were not. The Stone Age ended around 2,000 B.C. in South America. So they had metal tools for around 2,500 years when these stones were carved. The stones were connected to each other with metal fittings. KotA's version is fiction. He's created a straw man version of these stones and is arguing (literally) from ignorance.

[Cuddles]

This would be closer to your scenario:

"This man is dead."

"How did he die?"

"I don't know. There are no marks on him. It must be 750 giraffes came in through the window and sucked the oxygen out of the room."

Before ascending to we don't know where....

Well of course the giraffes ascended. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to reach the tops of trees.

[King of the Americas]

I think templates have been mentioned quite a few times in this thread. Did you miss each mention or do you not know what they are or how they are used?

Templets made of...?

Templets are tracings. IF I ask you to cut out 10 pieces of PAPER using this templet, there is going to be a measurable difference between your 10 patterns. Don't believe me? Give it a shot.

Now, try using that templet to cut or shape 10 pieces of stone, and watch the difficulty compound...

Now, if you are going to suggest molds were used, then I think the work may start to match your theory of construction.

[King of the Americas]

Ok, say they had some super advanced technology that they used. Where did it go and how did it never leave a trace of existing? What is your proof that it was all erased from history and what is your proof that people "ascended" with it? You are just filling the gaps with what you want to be there.

How is a group of people taking all traces of a certain technology and "ascending" with it at all logical or based on any evidence? Please show it to me if you are going to keep claiming that.

It is just my theory...

[Stray Cat]

I've bought furniture from Ikea in the past (never again!). I managed to follow the instructions putting it together. Ikea instruction sheets do not have any written words on them.

Now, I'm not suggesting that carving stones is like screwing a chest of drawers together at all, but merely pointing out that the written word is not necessary in giving quite detailed instructions as a picture paints a thousand words.

[King of the Americas]

I've bought furniture from Ikea in the past (never again!). I managed to follow the instructions putting it together. Ikea instruction sheets do not have any written words on them.

Now, I'm not suggesting that carving stones is like screwing a chest of drawers together at all, but merely pointing out that the written word is not necessary in giving quite detailed instructions as a picture paints a thousand words.

So what kind of paper dod they employ, and can you show me an example of one of these pictured instruction sheets?

OR, are you the one now suggesting facts, not supported by evidence?

Even if you had pictures of the work to be completed, you'd need some sort of way to know the 'exact' measurement(s) of all the cuts. Some claim that all the egyptians had to do their measuring was noted string... Try using noted string to cut recessed square holes in granite, and let me know how that goes.

A picture IS worth a thousand words, but almost no numbers...

[King of the Americas]

How is it at all logical to assume that people "ascended" and took technology with them? That's quite a leap with very little to support it other than a few relics that you think would require advanced technology. You make the leap to saying they had to ascend and take it with them because it is the only way to explain why there is no evidence for such a thing.

But which is more logical, that they were very skilled and had a very special way of crafting them that is now lost to us, or that they had super technology that there is no trace of left because they "ascended" (which might I add has never happened in recorded history, so there is little reason to beleive that such a thing happened in the past) with it.

If you can't answer any of my other questions, why don't you answer my one about what this "ascension" is and what your evidence for it is?

Whoever made those, ARE GONE, there is no longer any record of them.

Someone is 'up there', rather than coming from another place, I suggest they could have come from right here, just in a past so ancient that no one remembers.

I think Pumu Punku IS evidence of an abandon advanced technology, at work.

[King of the Americas]

Why do you assume they had no metal tools? They used metal hardware to hold some of the stones together.

Agreed, the green around those would indicate copper(?)...right?

So pick up a copper chisel, and start moving stone. Let me know what you learn.

[EHocking]

Templets made of...?

Templets are tracings. IF I ask you to cut out 10 pieces of PAPER using this templet, there is going to be a measurable difference between your 10 patterns. Don't believe me? Give it a shot.Been there, done that. You are wrong. My experience was with 1/2" thick polystyrene where we manufactured a dozen or more airfoil ribs for a glider wing of some 20ft.

Just because, in your experience, you have difficulties using a template to manufacture identical cut pieces does not mean others are not capable of it.

This seems to be the crux of your argument.

I can't do it, how could they?Now, try using that templet to cut or shape 10 pieces of stone, and watch the difficulty compound...Yet the manufacturing industry, since well before the Industrial Revolution, used and still uses cutting templates. Odd, that, since it's such an inaccurate way of replicating a cut piece.Now, if you are going to suggest molds were used,None of the other posters here would think that absurdly.

[GeeMack]

Whoever made those, ARE GONE, there is no longer any record of them.

Someone is 'up there', rather than coming from another place, I suggest they could have come from right here, just in a past so ancient that no one remembers.

I think Pumu Punku IS evidence of an abandon advanced technology, at work.


Argument from ignorance and incredulity.

[King of the Americas]

Been there, done that. You are wrong. My experience was with 1/2" thick polystyrene where we manufactured a dozen or more airfoil ribs for a glider wing of some 20ft.

...

How did you do the cutting?

Did you employ any machines, because THAT is the crux of my argument.

Work by hand, is NOT the same as machines.

Try using a simple knife, and a templet to cut ANY material you like, and I'll show you a margin of error unacceptable to finely fitting masonry work.

[Stray Cat]

So what kind of paper dod they employ, and can you show me an example of one of these pictured instruction sheets?
A drawing or other visual instruction doesn't have to be on paper. Many cultures have used clay tablets for instance.

If you do a Google Image search for 'Ikea Instructions' there are plenty of examples... some of them quite funny as they have been parodied a lot over the years.

OR, are you the one now suggesting facts, not supported by evidence?
I'm not suggesting 'facts' at all. I'm putting forward speculations on how a culture could have achieved great things without the need to for written instructions.

Even if you had pictures of the work to be completed, you'd need some sort of way to know the 'exact' measurement(s) of all the cuts.
Hows about the age old method of having a pre-cut wooden block?
Keep chipping until this wooden block fits exactly in the hole. Then repeat with this second smaller wooden block. A series of templates and jigs could be used.

Some claim that all the egyptians had to do their measuring was noted string... Try using noted string to cut recessed square holes in granite, and let me know how that goes.
You can't use string to cut holes in granite. :)

A picture IS worth a thousand words, but almost no numbers...
One of the most amazing things is seeing what can be achieved in geometry without needing to know any numbers.

[King of the Americas]

A drawing or other visual instruction doesn't have to be on paper. Many cultures have used clay tablets for instance.

If you do a Google Image search for 'Ikea Instructions' there are plenty of examples... some of them quite funny as they have been parodied a lot over the years.


I'm not suggesting 'facts' at all. I'm putting forward speculations on how a culture could have achieved great things without the need to for written instructions.


Hows about the age old method of having a pre-cut wooden block?
Keep chipping until this wooden block fits exactly in the hole. Then repeat with this second smaller wooden block. A series of templates and jigs could be used.

...

Have you ever tried to carve granite?

Did this culture use clay tablets, if so could you find one?

[EHocking]

How did you do the cutting?

Did you employ any machines, because THAT is the crux of my argument.

Work by hand, is NOT the same as machines.Key hole saw, after our DIY hot-wire knife didn't "cut the mustard".Try using a simple knife, and a templet to cut ANY material you like, and I'll show you a margin of error unacceptable to finely fitting masonry work.The dozen or so airfoils were all square and millimetre indistiguishable from each other.

I also make picture frames for my photographs and cut the mattes myself.
They are as good as or better finishes than any of the frames I have bought or had custom made.

Your argument from incredulity (I can't make it therefore you couldn't) just does not hold water.

[King of the Americas]

...

Your argument from incredulity (I can't make it therefore you couldn't) just does not hold water.

That's not the argument I am making.

[carlitos]

argument from ignorance

What's really sad is that it's King of the Americas who thinks that he has the most active imagination vs. all the closed-minded skeptics that can't imagine how this could be done. Ironic, even.

[EHocking]

That's not the argument I am making.Of course it is.

I've given two examples of how cutting from a template is a precise way of manufacturing identical cut item.

And they are still employed today (ETA, oops, well as at 1912!) in stone masonry.
See figs. 33 & 34 (http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Cyclopedia-Carpentry-Building-4-6/145-Stone-Cutting-And-Dressing.html)especially.

[King of the Americas]

argument from ignorance

What's really sad is that it's King of the Americas who thinks that he has the most active imagination vs. all the closed-minded skeptics that can't imagine how this could be done. Ironic, even.

Yours is an argument OF ignorance, which isn't an argument at all...you've just ignored the work present, and said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed.

Pick up a chisel, and gather some understanding.

[carlitos]

Yours is an argument OF ignorance, which isn't an argument at all...you've just ignored the work present, and said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed.Pick up a chisel, and gather some understanding.

This would be a good time for you to find a post where I ignored the work present, said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed. Good luck.

:popcorn1

[EHocking]

Yours is an argument OF ignorance, which isn't an argument at all...you've just ignored the work present, and said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed.

Pick up a chisel, and gather some understanding.Oh the irony.

Pick up a number of different types of chisel, and gather some understanding.

Read the Wiki entry for a brief overview of the types of tools one would employ to shape stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_carving#Tools).

Your one foray into the art with only one type of chisel demonstrates just how little experience you have in the art, and therefore your understanding of what is required to shape stone by hand.

[King of the Americas]

Of course it is.

I've given two examples of how cutting from a template is a precise way of manufacturing identical cut item.

And they are still employed today in stone masonry.
See figs. 33 & 34 (http://chestofbooks.com/architecture/Cyclopedia-Carpentry-Building-4-6/145-Stone-Cutting-And-Dressing.html)especially.

Cutting round outer edges is EASY...

Squared inner corners is something else entirely:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelpaukner/4526966166/

http://www.paleoseti.com/bilder/pumapunku/Puma%20Punku014.jpg

[King of the Americas]

Oh the irony.

Pick up a number of different types of chisel, and gather some understanding.

Read the Wiki entry for a brief overview of the types of tools one would employ to shape stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_carving#Tools).

Your one foray into the art with only one type of chisel demonstrates just how little experience you have in the art, and therefore your understanding of what is required to shape stone by hand.

Look, you need to hit ONE stone ONCE, then come back here...

I've used more than one chisel on more than one piece of stone.

You have ZERO direct knowledge herein.

This is what a modern machine does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zl3lTixmoo

Look at how much stone it removes with each impact. That is a single strike with a hammer.

Here's the fastest chisel for removing large portions of stone with a carbide tip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j-gAf-RJOU&feature=related

Any of the Trow & Holden videos are great.

I own one of their lettering tools.

---

Here's the best in the world using air tools on "marble":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zosvF1Qt0J4&NR=1

[Stray Cat]

Have you ever tried to carve granite?
No, I've also never been to the Moon but I know it's possible for people to do that (without the advanced technology we have at our disposal today)... They didn't even have iPods back in the 60's...:rolleyes:

Did this culture use clay tablets, if so could you find one?
It's odd how this double standard of evidence exists.
Your speculations are unevidenced and yet apparently all of mine need to be backed up by evidence.
I'm not saying that is how is was done, only suggesting how it could have been done using things we know were available at the time.
We know they had an abundance of clay because lots of it had to be dug out from the excavations to reveal the structures.

[King of the Americas]

...

It's odd how this double standard of evidence exists.
Your speculations are unevidenced and yet apparently all of mine need to be backed up by evidence.
I'm not saying that is how is was done, only suggesting how it could have been done using things we know were available at the time.
We know they had an abundance of clay because lots of it had to be dug out from the excavations to reveal the structures.

I am simply asking you to live up to YOUR standard...

I don't know how the work was done either. I have only speculated as to how many workers it would take to do by hand, OR that there was an advanced technology responsible.

[King of the Americas]

This would be a good time for you to find a post where I ignored the work present, said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed. Good luck.

:popcorn1

Saying the stones were sandstone is misrepresenting the work which you did twice 2 pages ago.

This mistake ignores the level of difficulty present.

[Elizabeth I]

Been there, done that. You are wrong. My experience was with 1/2" thick polystyrene where we manufactured a dozen or more airfoil ribs for a glider wing of some 20ft.

Just because, in your experience, you have difficulties using a template to manufacture identical cut pieces does not mean others are not capable of it.

This seems to be the crux of your argument.

I can't do it, how could they?Yet the manufacturing industry, since well before the Industrial Revolution, used and still uses cutting templates. Odd, that, since it's such an inaccurate way of replicating a cut piece.None of the other posters here would think that absurdly.

Yep. I am amazed at the number of things that can't be done because I can't do them: launch a Saturn rocket, excise a brain tumor, dunk a basketball, dance Swan Lake, read German, drive a Formula 1 race car 200 miles an hour, design a building that won't fall down, write a math text (oh, wait, my brother did that, so...?)

Some of those don't even require "advanced technology," but I can't do them, so that means they can't be done.

[King of the Americas]

Yep. I am amazed at the number of things that can't be done because I can't do them: launch a Saturn rocket, excise a brain tumor, dunk a basketball, dance Swan Lake, read German, drive a Formula 1 race car 200 miles an hour, design a building that won't fall down, write a math text (oh, wait, my brother did that, so...?)

Some of those don't even require "advanced technology," but I can't do them, so that means they can't be done.

You too have misrepresented my argument...

[Stray Cat]

I am simply asking you to live up to YOUR standard...
But there is a difference between my speculations being built on what we do know was available and yours being based upon what we don't.
The possibilities I present are demonstratively possible.

I don't know how the work was done either. I have only speculated as to how many workers it would take to do by hand, OR that there was an advanced technology responsible.
But a guess as to how many people would be required over a guessed amount of time does not support your theory. You need to show that the blocks were cut in less time than you guess it would take or that there weren't enough people to do the cutting. Neither of these has been shown, in fact we know that time wasn't an issue for ancient cultures to build monuments, we also know that similar cultures had the man power required.

[EHocking]

Look, you need to hit ONE stone ONCE, then come back here...Ah, now you know my entire history of house restoration/redecoration do you. A VERY arrogant, and ignorant statement.I've used more than one chisel on more than one piece of stone.

You have ZERO direct knowledge herein. As per usual, you post a definitive opinion on a subject you have no knowledge of, nor evidence for.

Besides being ignorant of my past redecoration/rebuilding experience and skills, you are also ignorant of my travels and interests and especially ignorant of my profession for the past 26 years.

Hint. You'd be wrong to think that I have no experience with working with stone in various forms.

[EHocking]

Yep. I am amazed at the number of things that can't be done because I can't do them: launch a Saturn rocket, excise a brain tumor, dunk a basketball, dance Swan Lake, read German, drive a Formula 1 race car 200 miles an hour, design a building that won't fall down, write a math text (oh, wait, my brother did that, so...?)

Some of those don't even require "advanced technology," but I can't do them, so that means they can't be done.I have done no.5 badly a few times and intend to do no.6 next year for my birthday.

[Correa Neto]

So, you keep saying it can only be made with modern tools, eh?

Go ahead and prove your claims on the proper way. All I've seen utill now to back it are some pictures and claims that you or anyone else would not be able to do without modern tools. Now, I challenge you or anyone else that believes or sell this stuff to prove it on the right way. How? Simple.

Nowadays specialists can tell you what tool was used to create a given artifact by studying the tell-tale (sometimes microscopic) marks the tools leave. An obsidian blade, a rotary polishing tool, a vidia drilling bit, all of them leave their unique signatures at their products.

So, go ahead and show us the undeniable reliable evidence. Show us these marks. You or anyone else supporting such claims. Anyone who can show us a study where these marks are clearly shown.

Without these evidences, your claim, based on what you admit to be a limited personal experience, is not even an argument of ignorance. Its an argument of arrogance. Arrogant to the point of assuming that, based on a few trials, with not much experience on the subject, if you can't do it and you can't imagine how it could be done, no one else can. You are being arrogant and underestimating our ancestors. You are not honoring their skills, their struggle, their legacy.

I'll be very clear- when I write "you", I mean you and everyone else defending these claims.

Now, why do you think archeologists have never shown these evidences?

And by the way, how would you rank an obsidian blade, an ancient Roman metal surgical blade a modern surgical blade when it comes down to cutting meat and bones?

[GeeMack]

You too have misrepresented my argument...


If you truly believe people are misrepresenting your argument, perhaps you could make your argument understandable. It seems like a combination of constructing a strawman of the capabilities of the ancients, another strawman of the capabilities of contemporary humans, some arguments from ignorance, some wholly unsupported assertions, a substantial amount of argument by being insolent, and most of all, repeated arguments from incredulity.

If you have any objective, tangible evidence that any ancient structures were built with what you call "advanced technology" or that some ascended beings were involved, lay it on us. We haven't seen any yet. Blaming the skeptical folks here for pointing out that lack of evidence isn't really advancing your argument. In fact it is backfiring; it's demonstrating your utter failure.

[bruto]

Templets made of...?

Templets are tracings. IF I ask you to cut out 10 pieces of PAPER using this templet, there is going to be a measurable difference between your 10 patterns. Don't believe me? Give it a shot.

Now, try using that templet to cut or shape 10 pieces of stone, and watch the difficulty compound...

Now, if you are going to suggest molds were used, then I think the work may start to match your theory of construction.Templates can be made of wood, metal, leather or paper, or any substance that allows a pattern to be made.

A template need only provide the repeatable lines or reference points for marking out the work. You could, for example, make a template for laying out a complex shape using a piece of wood into which holes are drilled to mark the corners and reference points. A complex pattern could be marked out using a collection of specialized rules and partial patterns used sequentially. Once the work is marked out by scoring or scribing, the template is removed. If points are made for a geometrical figure, connecting lines can be drawn from those points after the template is removed.

If certain areas must be carved away to a very precise depth or other dimension, gauge blocks or test blocks can easily be designed.

If there is a need for multiple blocks and gauges, and the ones used in the field are subject to wear and tear, there might be a master pattern from which those working gauges are made. That's a standard sort of arrangement in manufacturing.

The possibilities for pattern and template making and marking of work are enormous, and even if we cannot know just what was done, we can certainly imagine many ways of accomplishing this without having to imagine mysterious or lost technologies.

Your example of paper is interesting, because, of course, there might be a measurable difference between pieces, but the pieces will be pretty much the same, within some tolerance depending on how usefully the template was designed, how carefully it was used, and how skilfully the paper was cut. Of course if you trace your template with a magic marker and cut it with kindergarten scissors, it will be very sloppy, whereas you could use a template designed skilfully to compensate for whatever pencil you plan to use, and then cut the paper with a scalpel, and get it very close indeed.

When we speak of those mass produced sandstone blocks, we presume that they are very uniform. But I don't see any reliable reference that discusses the tolerance, and it's quite a jump to suggest that they are so close that there is no measurable difference. If they are tolerably close, enough to interchange, that's splendid workmanship. It is not the work of gods or mythical beings.

by the way, King, I have worked with stone, though it's never been a serious pursuit, and I do not claim expertise simply because I've carved a few pieces of marble and shaped a few blocks of one thing or another. But your assumption that your foray into amateur masonry is unique is just silly.

[King of the Americas]

But there is a difference between my speculations being built on what we do know was available and yours being based upon what we don't.
The possibilities I present are demonstratively possible.


But a guess as to how many people would be required over a guessed amount of time does not support your theory. You need to show that the blocks were cut in less time than you guess it would take or that there weren't enough people to do the cutting. Neither of these has been shown, in fact we know that time wasn't an issue for ancient cultures to build monuments, we also know that similar cultures had the man power required.

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

[King of the Americas]

So, you keep saying it can only be made with modern tools, eh?

...

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

[RoboTimbo]

I think templates have been mentioned quite a few times in this thread. Did you miss each mention or do you not know what they are or how they are used?

Templets made of...?

Templets are tracings. IF I ask you to cut out 10 pieces of PAPER using this templet, there is going to be a measurable difference between your 10 patterns. Don't believe me? Give it a shot.

Now, try using that templet to cut or shape 10 pieces of stone, and watch the difficulty compound...

Now, if you are going to suggest molds were used, then I think the work may start to match your theory of construction.
So I was right, you don't know what templates are or how they are used. Do you now believe that aliens must have given us templates also because you are ignorant of their use?

[Psiload]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

You seem to be acknowledging the possibility that human manpower and time could account for the accomplishments that you had previously attributed to The Gods.. such as they may be.

Is this the case?

[EHocking]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...Evidence? Including cites for estimates of time required, tools required and manpower?

[dafydd]

So I was right, you don't know what templates are or how they are used. Do you now believe that aliens must have given us templates also because you are ignorant of their use?

He was talking about templets,tiny temples.

[GeeMack]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist


Find us a set of ascended beings, then we'll say they exist(ed).

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?


It appears pretty much everyone has read all your alleged arguments. One of the first rules of communication: If you're trying to say something and pretty much everyone understands it differently than you intend it, it's your problem and it's your responsibility to repair the problem.

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.


You may believe you've shown that, but your flat out claim to have shown it is a lie.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.


Yet you haven't even attempted to show how long it should have taken without advanced technology much less compared that with how long it actually took. Hint: A "LONG" time is not quantitative. It's a guess. And since guesses aren't in any way scientific, your argument based on the guess will continue to be dismissed.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time


So? It took a LONG time. Nobody has shown otherwise, any arguments from ignorance notwithstanding. Your attempt to support the existence of "ascended beings" has failed.

[GeeMack]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...


Okay, so you're acknowledging that it could have been built by regular humans of the time. Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

[EHocking]

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.Where are you getting this "60,000 farmers" from.

It doesn't gel with the summaries of the Tiwanaku civilisation that I have read. Or are you just exaggerating for effect?

[Psiload]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time


Keep in mind that you have already shown yourself to be a very poor judge of what constitutes legitimate examples of "advanced technology".

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

---

So my mechanic and good friend has been telling me about this awesome device that he can install on my car, and could boost my milage and horsepower by 30%.

I saw him install one on a car, and was blown away by the immediate results. Not only did the car get better milage, but it ran more smoothly...

He and another buddy have been working to refine the model shown in the book, and they are getting really close to something they can mass manufacture.

Presently, they can create and install a model in a v-6 for under $300, and a v-8 for just under $400.

I have seen this 'work'.

The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed???

[King of the Americas]

Where are you getting this "60,000 farmers" from.

It doesn't gel with the summaries of the Tiwanaku civilisation that I have read. Or are you just exaggerating for effect?

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?

[GeeMack]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?


Having a little problem with your memory?

[EHocking]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?You're the one quoting this figure and basing all your incredulity on - and yet you have no idea of it veracity?

Should I be surprised at this?

[King of the Americas]

Keep in mind that you have already shown yourself to be a very poor judge of what constitutes legitimate examples of "advanced technology".

You know, IF you ran the "hydronaters" with an independent battery, you COULD achieve efficiencies... Recharging the units with ambient braking, collapsable wind turbines, and solar cells...

And yes, I would call such units "advanced technology".

[EHocking]

You know, IF you ran the "hydronaters" with an independent battery, you COULD achieve efficiencies... Recharging the units with ambient braking, collapsable wind turbines, and solar cells...

And yes, I would call such units "advanced technology".A derail, but this device does not work. Revive the thread on it if you wish to go another round on it, but not here.

[Yeah_Right]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?


I checked the website the link came from and no such number exists for the Puma Punku podcast. However this is from the transcript of the podcast, which in no way supports your position: " Pumapunku is often cited as evidence that Earth was visited by aliens, Atlanteans, or some other mythical people who are presumably better at stonemasonry than humans."

and

"We do not claim to know how the heavy lifting and exquisite masonry was accomplished at Pumapunku, but that's a far cry from saying we believe the Tiwanaku were incapable of it. We simply don't have a record of what tools and techniques they used. All around the world are examples of stonemasonry from the period that is equally impressive. The Greek Parthenon, for example, was built a thousand years before Pumapunku, and yet nobody invokes aliens as the only explanation for its great beauty and decorative detailing that more than rivals Pumapunku's angles and cuts. At about the same time, the Persians constructed Persepolis with its superlative Palace of Darius, featuring details that are highly comparable to Pumapunku. Stonemasons in India cut the Udayagiri Caves with megalithic doorways that are very similar to those in Pumapunku. The Tiwanaku did magnificent work, but by no means was it inexplicably superior to what can be found throughout the ancient world. It is unnecessary to invoke aliens to explain the structures."


You seem to ignore these aspects of the podcast.

[carlitos]

This would be a good time for you to find a post where I ignored the work present, said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed. Good luck.

:popcorn1

Saying the stones were sandstone is misrepresenting the work which you did twice 2 pages ago.

This mistake ignores the level of difficulty present.
You misstate my argument. I ask for clarity, and you remind me that the sandstone is made of sandstone? What the hell?

Then, you remind me that I mis-represented the difficulty of carving sandstone with precision? I never did this.

Dude, you have been asked about a thousand times how you calculated how much time this would take. Show the man-hours. Then, we could make some sense of your claim. You haven't shown any math at all. You're just incredulous, which isn't an argument.

[Stray Cat]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist
Again, I'm not saying they did use clay tablets to make diagrams or instructions on, I;m saying they could have used them. Further I can provide evidence that clay was available and that for centuries before that different civilisations across the world were using clay for such things.

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?
Yes, I have.

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.
Oddly enough someone (a chartered surveyor) once said that this crop circle would require a team of professional surveyors, four whole days to plot out:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/sixjulia.jpg

And yet, when you do the math, it turns out it took 12 people 5 hours to not only plot out but to stomp down too... and all in the dark.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.
What you are failing to consider is that ancient people's had a long time. Their lives were not ruled by Broadband speed, instant text messaging and fast food. In all ancient civilisations took a great amount of pride in doing things that were difficult to achieve.

Even if there were only one family of masons living in the village and they worked on it for several generations, taking more than 100 years to complete, it's still more probable than gods/demons/aliens did it then left and you have not shown that it was built too quickly for this to have been the case.

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time
If you could show why advanced technology would be needed to do something that can be completed without advanced technology, or that the building was done in a shorter period of time than actual manpower (as opposed to guessed manpower) could account for, that would be helpful in supporting your speculation.

[Crossbow]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

And a third possibility is that both these assertions made by 'King of the Americas' are wrong.

And considering how wrong KoA has been about so many different things, then I would say that KoA is wrong in this case as well.

By the way, there was about 1500 years between when the Egyptians first started building death monuments and the construction of the Great Pyramids of Giza, so they had a considerable body of knowledge by the time that the Great Pyramids were built.

Also, there is some good research which shows that the Great Pyramids could have built by a few thousand hard-working and well motivated people who were well organized and well lead by a few hundred very skilled craftsman and engineers.

[King of the Americas]

...

Also, there is some good research which shows that the Great Pyramids could have built by a few thousand hard-working and well motivated people who were well organized and well lead by a few hundred very skilled craftsman and engineers.

1 block every 9 seconds...to finish it in 20 years.

Is there an unreasonable period of time to considered, in regards to Pumu Punku?

[Psiload]

You know, IF you ran the "hydronaters" with an independent battery, you COULD achieve efficiencies... Recharging the units with ambient braking, collapsable wind turbines, and solar cells...

And yes, I would call such units "advanced technology".


Response...

Moved to avoid a derail...

[Laton]

1 block every 9 seconds...to finish it in 20 years.

Is there an unreasonable period of time to considered, in regards to Pumu Punku?

A quick look at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku) gives:

Tiwanaku is recognized by Andean scholars as one of the most important precursors to the Inca Empire, flourishing as the ritual and administrative capital of a major state power for approximately five hundred years.

I think it's OK to assume that, like Rome, Pumu Punku wasn't built in a day.

[bruto]

KoA keeps mentioning "60 thousand farmers." My understanding is that the population of the settlement was about 60 thousand. The whole point of farming is that a relatively small number of farmers can feed a population that performs other tasks. In a population that size, why would it be unreasonable to expect a large number of stone workers, if stone work is deemed an important occupation? It's utterly ridiculous to assume that even in an agrarian society everyone is a farmer.

[EHocking]

KoA keeps mentioning "60 thousand farmers." My understanding is that the population of the settlement was about 60 thousand. The whole point of farming is that a relatively small number of farmers can feed a population that performs other tasks. In a population that size, why would it be unreasonable to expect a large number of stone workers, if stone work is deemed an important occupation? It's utterly ridiculous to assume that even in an agrarian society everyone is a farmer.To refresh KotA's memory of the MP3 - at the height of their civilisation, there was a population of 400,000.

Perhaps 60,000 of them were farmers?

This leaves 340,000 to think about building temples and 5 or more centuries to contemplate how to manage it...

[tsig]

Interesting that 'I' am the one with actual experience shaping stone...
How much?

I worked for Ford Motor in an assembly plant and "I" never built a single car nobody in the whole plant ever built a car but "we" built 1000 a day.

[tsig]

Just not a writen language or metal tools...making the work take a REALLY REEEAAAALLLLY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

Probably a lifetime or two. Why is that a problem?

[Elizabeth I]

You too have misrepresented my argument...
Show me how what you're saying is not, "I don't understand how it was done, therefore mysterious godlike beings did it."

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.
No. You have said it, asserted it even, but you haven't shown it.

[Pure Argent]

Just not a writen language or metal tools...making the work take a REALLY REEEAAAALLLLY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

So? That's what I said. They had a lot of time.

Or do you think it's impossible for something to have been built in a time period greater than, oh, say about twenty-six years?

[Yeah_Right]

KoA keeps mentioning "60 thousand farmers." My understanding is that the population of the settlement was about 60 thousand. The whole point of farming is that a relatively small number of farmers can feed a population that performs other tasks. In a population that size, why would it be unreasonable to expect a large number of stone workers, if stone work is deemed an important occupation? It's utterly ridiculous to assume that even in an agrarian society everyone is a farmer.


"At its peak, 400,000 people lived in and around the Tiwanaku site", There is no mention of the 60,000 figure on that podcast.

[tsig]

1 block every 9 seconds...to finish it in 20 years.

Is there an unreasonable period of time to considered, in regards to Pumu Punku?

Let's see:

60 sec x 60 min/hour = 36000sec/hour

3600 sec/hour / 1block/9 sec = 400 blocks/hour

400 blocks/hour x 12 hours/day = 4800 blocks/day

4800 blocks/day x 365 days/year = 1,752,000 blocks/year

1752000 blocks/year x 20 years = 35,040,000 blocks moved in 20 years.

That's ten times the highest estimate I've seen.

Assumptions: 12 hour shifts, no holidays, 365 days/year in Egyptian times.


(if you find any math mistakes[blame my calculator] that proves you are closed minded so keep them to your self:) )

[Stray Cat]

KoA keeps mentioning "60 thousand farmers." My understanding is that the population of the settlement was about 60 thousand. The whole point of farming is that a relatively small number of farmers can feed a population that performs other tasks. In a population that size, why would it be unreasonable to expect a large number of stone workers, if stone work is deemed an important occupation? It's utterly ridiculous to assume that even in an agrarian society everyone is a farmer.
Indeed. Anyone who has played any of those civilisation type simulation games will know it's not a good strategy to have everyone farming.
If they were all farmers, they would soon run into problems... No one to build farm houses, no one to make cooking utensils, furniture, clothing, metalwork, protect from invading armies, make new laws, decide to build a new mega temple... the list is quite long. I live in what could be described as a rural farming community (well, right on the edge of one) and not everyone in the community is a farmer.

[Correa Neto]

Let's suppose KotA's 60K people figure is correct.
Now let's suppose 0.5% of these people worked carving stones.
What could 300 people working say, for 10 yars, create?

Aniway, a good read for KotA would be "The Pillars of the Earth". The TV series might also do the trick.

[bruto]

"At its peak, 400,000 people lived in and around the Tiwanaku site", There is no mention of the 60,000 figure on that podcast.I did at some point see a reference (can't remember which of the many I've been rummaging through) that suggested the population of the city itself was around 60 thousand. The 400 thousand figure would presumably be the "greater Tiwanaku" figure. Either way, of course the population of this thriving urban center would support plenty of both master craftsmen and laborers in the stone industry, which was obviously an important one to them.

[Correa Neto]

By sheer coincidence last night I was watching at NatGeo a documentary on Macchu Pichu, celebrating 100 years of its discovery.

The methods the Incas used to carve, move and settle andesite blocks were shown; they need nothing but manpower, stones, ropes and logs.

Yeah, yeah Tiwanaku people were not Incan, but the methods they used were most likely the same or very similar.

Macchu Picchu was an incredible engineering achievment. Its drainage system, unnoticed by most people, is IMHO its greatest wonder. Macchu Picchu is, I believe, more technologically challenging than Tiwanaku.

Its also interesting to notice that the answers to these "ancient myseries" is easily available if one sticks his/her head outside the pool of crap built by people like Von Daniken.

[King of the Americas]

Show me how what you're saying is not, "I don't understand how it was done, therefore mysterious godlike beings did it."


No. You have said it, asserted it even, but you haven't shown it.

I have said it would take an army of master masons decades to complete

OR

a advanced technology

That said, I'd here and now like to slightly alter my stance:

An army of master masons COULD accomplish the task, but only WITH modern tools. REGARDLESS of the time given 'I' don't don't think the work could have been accomplished with period tools. Whatever tools or technology they DID used, is gone.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there are 'thin cuts', with holes drilled evenly apart within, that they themselves contain contain right angles. (http://api.ning.com/files/gX3HeYgD8bhGAKrMHhcd*KR3Dm80HTF4cW9PlG40oLAHTxYZjO AJbA020jduSCodRI3gBGyXJBDlIfeLb156jEa3ZvcgVXA5/PumaPunku011Small.jpg) This was the work of a saw blade, from my perspective.

Today, you'd need silicone valley style technology to create a microchip. Regardless of how much time me, my sons, or grandsons had, we would be unable to turn raw silicone into a working chip, without 'advanced technology'. I could bang rocks together from now until eternity, but without the technology, it ain't gonna happen.

The technology that built Puma Punku is MISSING, meaning it is GONE, not here, has been lost, and or is no longer in our possession.

---

*I go a way for a few hours, and I get over run with retorts... My apologies. If I missed your a unaddressed point, please feel free to point it out.

Thank you all for your time and patients.

[Elizabeth I]

I have said it would take an army of master masons decades to complete

OR

a advanced technology

That said, I'd here and now like to slightly alter my stance:

An army of master masons COULD accomplish the task, but only WITH modern tools. REGARDLESS of the time given 'I' don't don't think the work could have been accomplished with period tools. Whatever tools or technology they DID used, is gone.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there are 'thin cuts', with holes drilled evenly apart within, that they themselves contain contain right angles. (http://api.ning.com/files/gX3HeYgD8bhGAKrMHhcd*KR3Dm80HTF4cW9PlG40oLAHTxYZjO AJbA020jduSCodRI3gBGyXJBDlIfeLb156jEa3ZvcgVXA5/PumaPunku011Small.jpg) This was the work of a saw blade, from my perspective.

Today, you'd need silicone valley style technology to create a microchip. Regardless of how much time me, my sons, or grandsons had, we would be unable to turn raw silicone into a working chip, without 'advanced technology'. I could bang rocks together from now until eternity, but without the technology, it ain't gonna happen.

The technology that built Puma Punku is MISSING, meaning it is GONE, not here, has been lost, and or is no longer in our possession.

---

*I go a way for a few hours, and I get over run with retorts... My apologies. If I missed your a unaddressed point, please feel free to point it out.

Thank you all for your time and patients.

Again:
No. You have said it, asserted it even, but you haven't shown it.
a) Please provide some backup besides "that's what I feel is true" for your statement that it would have taken an "army of master masons" to create the structures in question, even with "modern tools." Show your math and provide architectural and engineering citations supporting your initial assumptions.

b) If your statement about the impossibility of doing the work without "modern" tools is true, how do you explain the number of extremely complicated, sophisticated, very old structures around the world? Were they all built by either "armies of master masons" or your advanced technocrats? Do you persist in handwaving away the Parthenon and Petra as not in the same class as your baby? What about Teotihuacán? Angkor Wat? Macchu Picchu? The Roman Coliseum (or for that matter, the Roman aqueduct system?) Chichén Itzá and Tulum? Michaelangelo's David and the Pieta?

c) What are you including in "modern tools"?

d) Have you taken into account the information provided about the actual population of the civilization that built Puma Punku? It sounds to me as if there were plenty of people to support the builders while they did their work - again, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, if this type of work were important, holy even, and ordained by the authorities.

e) You persist in talking about "master masons." Has it ever occurred to you that there could have been something like a guild system - masters, journeymen, apprentices, etc., down to the common laborers pulling the stones around? In fact, if this were a religious or sacred endeavor of some kind, that's exactly what you might expect: a class of men initiated in the secrets, together with assistants, acolytes and servants supporting their work, each group armed with just a little less knowledge than the rank above it.

[King of the Americas]

a) I can only provide you MY findings, and encourage you to gather your own, in regards to how much time it takes to remove how much stone. Carving repeated descending right angles into andesite With other stones, is NOT possible, regardless of no time constraints. You would NEED hardened tools, and even armed with today's carbide tipped tools, a novice could NOT Make this: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4526966166_0fbefbb9ca.jpg, without a detailed set of instructions, I.E. "a written language". The hardness of the stones and dimensional accuracy achieved are not singularly the only truly impressive thing here, but it is the amount of work present: http://www.paleoseti.com/bilder/pumapunku/Puma%20Punku014.jpg, that DEMANDS that an advanced technology of some sort, was at work there.

b) That some of them were created with this same or similar lost technology. Modern marble works, although impressive, don't 'equal' the sheer amount of mastery level work present at Puma Punku. Michaelaneglo himself would not have been able to create 'one' of those without a detailed set of instructions, hardened tools, and 10 years.

c) Machines. Men have been shaping stone with hammer and chisel for centuries. The earliest of which were softer, than we have now. Without modern tools, these works were not possible.

d) This is not about population... I have amended that statement based on the work difficulty, itself.

e) That all sounds nice...

[King of the Americas]

By sheer coincidence last night I was watching at NatGeo a documentary on Macchu Pichu, celebrating 100 years of its discovery.

The methods the Incas used to carve, move and settle andesite blocks were shown; they need nothing but manpower, stones, ropes and logs.

Yeah, yeah Tiwanaku people were not Incan, but the methods they used were most likely the same or very similar.

Macchu Picchu was an incredible engineering achievment. Its drainage system, unnoticed by most people, is IMHO its greatest wonder. Macchu Picchu is, I believe, more technologically challenging than Tiwanaku.

Its also interesting to notice that the answers to these "ancient myseries" is easily available if one sticks his/her head outside the pool of crap built by people like Von Daniken.

How did they presume they completed this work?

At that elevation, the number of workers is expounded, due to the lack of oxygen at that level. How many men DOES it take to move 1 ton, vertically at that elevation? It CAN'T be the same as at sea level...

What technique did they use to surface those stones?

I'll bet they DON'T know. If ALL those stones are andesite, then there was an advanced technology at work there too. That stuff isn't soft, and take massive amount of energy to shape.

What it looks like was that the stones were stacked into place, within molds, then softened and smashed together like so much clay, then hardened again. THIS would indeed be an 'advanced technology', that we lack today.

These works are anything but 'easy' or even possible without modern/advanced technology.

[King of the Americas]

Indeed. Anyone who has played any of those civilisation type simulation games will know it's not a good strategy to have everyone farming.
If they were all farmers, they would soon run into problems... No one to build farm houses, no one to make cooking utensils, furniture, clothing, metalwork, protect from invading armies, make new laws, decide to build a new mega temple... the list is quite long. I live in what could be described as a rural farming community (well, right on the edge of one) and not everyone in the community is a farmer.

I LOVE those kinds of games...

Within them, do the "Wonder" options become available at the beginning, or end of the gaming scenario?

Because, what we have at Pumu Punku is a truly Wondrous marvel, then a culture rose, and built up and around it, in a less 'Wondrous' manner, but still impressive.

The 'peak' is in the wrong place, here.

[RoboTimbo]

a) I can only provide you MY findings
You have made a common mistake here. You used the word 'findings' when you meant to use the word 'opinion'.

b) That some of them were created with this same or similar lost technology. Modern marble works, although impressive, don't 'equal' the sheer amount of mastery level work present at Puma Punku. Michaelaneglo himself would not have been able to create 'one' of those without a detailed set of instructions, hardened tools, and 10 years.
Another common mistake. You forgot to add '...in my opinion.' And then explain why your opinion isn't based on anything pertinent.

c) Machines. Men have been shaping stone with hammer and chisel for centuries. The earliest of which were softer, than we have now. Without modern tools, these works were not possible.
Obviously, these works don't exist here or anywhere else then. Nor does the statue of David nor microchips.

d) This is not about population... I have amended that statement based on the work difficulty, itself.
Good, let's go get a beer then.

e) That all sounds nice...
This describes your beliefs in a nutshell.

[Stray Cat]

Because, what we have at Pumu Punku is a truly Wondrous marvel, then a culture rose, and built up and around it, in a less 'Wondrous' manner, but still impressive.
If only the archaeology supported that series of events.
Why would Pumu Punku society be fundamentally different from others around at the time?
We know from archaeological digs around the world roughly how societies were built up. Establish regular food, build permanent shelter, organise workloads, build small shrines to gods. Then as time passes and conditions allow the population to expand, they expand food production to match, build bigger shelters, introduce 'management systems' because farms and other industries have grown beyond family businesses, build a bigger shrine to the gods... etc. Expanding until for various reasons, their society get's too big and out of balance so that rebellion splits it, or invasion destroys it etc. What archaeological evidence makes Pumu Punku different?

[carlitos]

I LOVE those kinds of games...

Within them, do the "Wonder" options become available at the beginning, or end of the gaming scenario?

Because, what we have at Pumu Punku is a truly Wondrous marvel, then a culture rose, and built up and around it, in a less 'Wondrous' manner, but still impressive.

The 'peak' is in the wrong place, here.

Or more likely, a culture rose, got its act together and built some amazing temples.

Your argument is like someone from 1000 years in the future saying "the gods built the Sears Tower, and then a city rose up around it" - which is ridiculous.







Just out of curiousity, in the following post you seem to indicate that the stones in question were made of granite (or diorite), and that they were produced in the Stone Age (before 2,000 BC). Is that still your contention?

If you CAN'T replicate this work with modern hand tools, then clearly someone back then had 'advanced technology'...

What we have in Puma Punku is something IMPOSSIBLE to make with stone age tools.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Pick up a stone age chisel and prove it.

My current offer remains, leave the stone age tools out of it. Carving a 90 degree angle out of granite is tough. Diorite is even harder.

[bruto]

Once again, it's clear from the use of bronze alloys in the hardware holding some of those stones together that the people who did this work had developed some good metallurgical skills, and were well past the stone age. Given that they did, obviously, have bronze at their disposal, it's necessary to disqualify well designed bronze tools before assuming higher technology.

[King of the Americas]

You have made a common mistake here. You used the word 'findings' when you meant to use the word 'opinion'.


Another common mistake. You forgot to add '...in my opinion.' And then explain why your opinion isn't based on anything pertinent.


Obviously, these works don't exist here or anywhere else then. Nor does the statue of David nor microchips.


Good, let's go get a beer then.


This describes your beliefs in a nutshell.

1.) No, I meant "findings". It is not my opinion as to how much stone is removed by 1- 5 lb swing of a hammer onto a carbide tipped chisel into a piece of granite. This is a repeatable FACT, and it doesn't matter who does it, the same result will occur.

2.) Marble is different than andesite, is ways you clearly don't get.

3.) They DO exist, they just weren't crafted with copper chisels (http://copperculture.homestead.com/). Thus these monuments were created with a now "lost technology". No one says they KNOW how these were created.

4.) You have completely missed every argument I've made...

[King of the Americas]

If only the archaeology supported that series of events.
Why would Pumu Punku society be fundamentally different from others around at the time?
We know from archaeological digs around the world roughly how societies were built up. Establish regular food, build permanent shelter, organise workloads, build small shrines to gods. Then as time passes and conditions allow the population to expand, they expand food production to match, build bigger shelters, introduce 'management systems' because farms and other industries have grown beyond family businesses, build a bigger shrine to the gods... etc. Expanding until for various reasons, their society get's too big and out of balance so that rebellion splits it, or invasion destroys it etc. What archaeological evidence makes Pumu Punku different?

There are two different kinds of stone and building techniques there...or did you not see?

They lacked the tools to accomplish this task. There were no other tools available to them but "copper" ones.

The andesite carvings are what make Pumu Punku different.

[RoboTimbo]

1.) No, I meant "findings". It is not my opinion as to how much stone is removed by 1- 5 lb swing of a hammer onto a carbide tipped chisel into a piece of granite. This is a repeatable FACT, and it doesn't matter who does it, the same result will occur.
No, you meant that this is your 'opinion': " Carving repeated descending right angles into andesite With other stones, is NOT possible, regardless of no time constraints. You would NEED hardened tools, and even armed with today's carbide tipped tools, a novice could NOT Make this:" This has been your repeated argument from ignorance throughout the thread.

2.) Marble is different than andesite, is ways you clearly don't get.
No, this is your opinion again: "That some of them were created with this same or similar lost technology."

3.) They DO exist, they just weren't crafted with copper chisels (http://copperculture.homestead.com/). Thus these monuments were created with a now "lost technology". No one says they KNOW how these were created.
See bruto's post.

4.) You have completely missed every argument I've made...
No, you simply missed my responses.

[King of the Americas]

...


Just out of curiousity, in the following post you seem to indicate that the stones in question were made of granite (or diorite), and that they were produced in the Stone Age (before 2,000 BC). Is that still your contention?

That is a quote from earlier in the thread.

All that anyone has found has been made of copper. Even if they managed to make bronze alloys that's only got a hardness of 3. Andesite is harder.

My contention is that we don't know how these works were done. That the technology to recreate these things, no longer exists.

[carlitos]

I found a really interesting story online. A team of archeologists built their own boat using designs from the Puma Punku era and successfully brought a nine ton andesite stone (as big as the one in the monolith at Puma Punku) from the quarry across lake Titicaca. All using technology that the natives would have had. They have a whole interactive dig posted online as well (unfortunately the 'captains log' is on a slow Bolivian server).

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/project/experiment.html

On edit - they planned to have a local artist carve the thing as a replica of the original. I wonder if that happened.

[Stray Cat]

There are two different kinds of stone and building techniques there...or did you not see?
Yes, well differing materials are another common trait of large buildings.

They lacked the tools to accomplish this task. There were no other tools available to them but "copper" ones.
We know the tools to carve stone were available in other parts of the world. Why not in this one?

The andesite carvings are what make Pumu Punku different.
Pffft... they were carving andesite in Scotland way back then.
http://heritage-key.com/britain/neolithic-and-bronze-age-prestige-items-andesite-and-sandstone-carved-balls-item-48

Mexico: http://www.ocregister.com/entertainment/museum-270732-resnick-fashion.html?pic=20

Easter Island (figure 58): http://www.chauvet-translation.com/figurelegends.htm

And plenty more besides.

[Elizabeth I]

My contention is that we don't know how these works were done. That the technology to recreate these things, no longer exists.
Are you saying that no one today could reproduce that work? If so, that's just so much ****** de toro.

e) That all sounds nice...
Why so dismissive? We know that guild organizations existed - there are records and history, and the terms "master," "journeyman" and "apprentice" are used by modern unions.

That's more than anyone except you can say for your dei ex machina.

[bruto]

People have been carving, riving, splitting, chipping, sawing, drilling and milling granite, andesite, basalt and all sorts of other hard rocks for millennia. The fact that KingoftheAmericas can't figure out an effective way to do it is immaterial.

What they had was not advanced technology, but advanced technique.

[Correa Neto]

How did they presume they completed this work?

At that elevation, the number of workers is expounded, due to the lack of oxygen at that level. How many men DOES it take to move 1 ton, vertically at that elevation? It CAN'T be the same as at sea level...

What technique did they use to surface those stones?

Stick your neck above the pool of ignorance you are sunken in to and you'll find the answers.

The quarry from where the Incas took the stones was located, there are stones in several stages of carving and removal; unfinished walls were found with stones at various stages of placement and fitting. The techniques, wich were demonstrated, by the way, were surprisingly simple and effective. Stuff of geniuses, I would say.

As for the altitude, well, here's one more example of how your ignorance cripples your extrapolations. People practice sports at that altitude. Try checking the Copa Libertadores da América, a Latin American soccer competition. All it takes is your body getting used to it. Coca leaves may also help.

So, quit that arrogant attitude of yours, start realizing you know much less than you think. Your limited experiences and poor knowledge are not enough for many extrapolations.

I'll bet they DON'T know. If ALL those stones are andesite, then there was an advanced technology at work there too. That stuff isn't soft, and take massive amount of energy to shape.

Wrong bet. All it takes to carve a material with a given hardness is another piece of material with the same hardness. So, guess what can be used to carve andesite (wich by the way is a rock composed o several minerals, each one with its own hardness)?

What it looks like was that the stones were stacked into place, within molds, then softened and smashed together like so much clay, then hardened again. THIS would indeed be an 'advanced technology', that we lack today.

This is nothing but an argument of ignorance and arrogance. YOU don't know how they could made it. YOU think it LOOKS like and this is far from being equal to "is". Stop watching woostuff and go check that documentary on Macchu Picchu.

These works are anything but 'easy' or even possible without modern/advanced technology.

Bullcrap.

Those people lived centuries ago and had no advanced technology. They were more much more skilled, intelligent and smarter than you. Deal with it.

a) I can only provide you MY findings, and encourage you to gather your own, in regards to how much time it takes to remove how much stone.

Your "findings" are nothing but the product of poor skills, ignorance and arrogance. Those guys lived hundreds of years ago and beated your skills and intelligence. Deal with it.

You say they used modern technology. Prove it. As I wrote before, each tool leaves at its product an unique signature. Show these marks. Marks produced only by modern tools such as high-velocity rotary drills with vidia bits, for example.

Ever wondered why there are no works published showing these marks?

[King of the Americas]

I found a really interesting story online. A team of archeologists built their own boat using designs from the Puma Punku era and successfully brought a nine ton andesite stone (as big as the one in the monolith at Puma Punku) from the quarry across lake Titicaca. All using technology that the natives would have had. They have a whole interactive dig posted online as well (unfortunately the 'captains log' is on a slow Bolivian server).

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/project/experiment.html

On edit - they planned to have a local artist carve the thing as a replica of the original. I wonder if that happened.

:rolleyes:

Moving stone, and shaping it are two very different endeavors...

If you can show me a team replicating one of those stones with period tools, then you'll have won the argument here.

This is irrelevant.

[King of the Americas]

Yes, well differing materials are another common trait of large buildings.


We know the tools to carve stone were available in other parts of the world. Why not in this one?


Pffft... they were carving andesite in Scotland way back then.
http://heritage-key.com/britain/neolithic-and-bronze-age-prestige-items-andesite-and-sandstone-carved-balls-item-48

Mexico: http://www.ocregister.com/entertainment/museum-270732-resnick-fashion.html?pic=20

Easter Island (figure 58): http://www.chauvet-translation.com/figurelegends.htm

And plenty more besides.

The sandstones were/are the large, more ornately carved stones, while the andesite ones are the ones shaped with the flat, 90 degree angled descending squares, with like 40 faces per stone.

ALL of the tools from the period wherein your balls were created, in the Americas, were copper. NO other harder, more capable tools have been found.

The cuts on your balls could be made with a flexible twine, water, and sand.

I DON'T know how you make a square cut the same size: http://www.paleoseti.com/bilder/pumapunku/Puma%20Punku011.jpg

In short your balls are no match for Puma Punku master masonry: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/cimages/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/coast-to-coast/repository/photos/puma-punku-stone-carving/468358-1-eng-US/Puma-Punku-Stone-Carving_photo_medium.jpg

*I sure mentioned your balls a lot in that retort, but I'd just like to add that they were not at all impressive. ;)

[carlitos]

In short your balls are no match for Puma Punku master masonry:
In a nutshell, there is your entire argument.

[Marduk]

ALL of the tools from the period wherein your balls were created, in the Americas, were copper. NO other harder, more capable tools have been found.
;)

Those same stone blocks youre taking about were held together with "bronze I clamps", this I ascertain is some kind of evidence that they had more than copper technology.
:D

[Stray Cat]

*I sure mentioned your balls a lot in that retort, but I'd just like to add that they were not at all impressive. ;)
I don't remember presenting my balls as evidence... :eye-poppi :)

You ignore two facts:
1. I provided three examples (from many available), the other two show more detailed carving.
2. Your contention is that such hard rock could not be carved without advanced technology and yet in the three examples I provided, hard rock has been carved without advanced technology.

This Egyptian andesite jug carved and hollowed out, shows the level of expertise from 2920-2649 BC
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=4821472&sid=

How could they get a chisel into that and hollow it out without advanced technology?

[carlitos]

I've been following the thread, and I think it's because KotA's incredulity on the Egyptian stuff is due to moving stone (every nine seconds...), while his incredulity on Puma Punku is due to carving stone (right angles!!1!1!). It can be tough to follow his logic, though.

ETA - Personally, I don't find it hard to believe that, 3,000 years after the Eqyptians did, the Inka figured out how to carve hard stone. Then again, I'm trying to think logically about this, and not presume that other cultures are stupid.

[King of the Americas]

Stick your neck above the pool of ignorance you are sunken in to and you'll find the answers.

...

Bullcrap.

Those people lived centuries ago and had no advanced technology. They were more much more skilled, intelligent and smarter than you. Deal with it.



Your "findings" are nothing but the product of poor skills, ignorance and arrogance. Those guys lived hundreds of years ago and beated your skills and intelligence. Deal with it.

You say they used modern technology. Prove it. As I wrote before, each tool leaves at its product an unique signature. Show these marks. Marks produced only by modern tools such as high-velocity rotary drills with vidia bits, for example.

Ever wondered why there are no works published showing these marks?

They beated our skills and intelligence, but weren't advanced.

We just got dumber?

I said the job couldn't be done with period tools.

*I have seen no study of these rocks for tool marks. Have you?

[carlitos]

You may notice that, in 2011, university graduates in the US don't speak Latin or read Greek, like they did 200 years ago. Did we get dumber, or do we just not place a premium on those skills anymore?

[tsig]

That is a quote from earlier in the thread.

All that anyone has found has been made of copper. Even if they managed to make bronze alloys that's only got a hardness of 3. Andesite is harder.

My contention is that we I don't know how these works were done. That the technology to recreate these things, no longer exists.

ftfy

[King of the Americas]

I don't remember presenting my balls as evidence... :eye-poppi :)

You ignore two facts:
1. I provided three examples (from many available), the other two show more detailed carving.
2. Your contention is that such hard rock could not be carved without advanced technology and yet in the three examples I provided, hard rock has been carved without advanced technology.

This Egyptian andesite jug carved and hollowed out, shows the level of expertise from 2920-2649 BC
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=4821472&sid=

How could they get a chisel into that and hollow it out without advanced technology?

You 'showed' rounded drilled shapes, with a few triangular carved lines...like the grooves cut into your balls to create those knobs. These things are accomplished by something entirely different than what cut the line in the picture at the above link.

Why would you even NEED to create a squared cut so small? Using mere hand tools to make that cut, with that kind of precision, would require WAY too time from a master mason to waste on a "line"... There's nothing ornate there. It is utilitarian. That cut was made with a machine.

A stick, bow, sand, and water can drill a hole in just about anything, given enough time. Square holes on the other hand require a different technique...

[King of the Americas]

ftfy

The MP3 file attached said 'they' didn't know either.

If YOU think you do know, please offer up a demonstration, and I'll kiss your feet, upon your success.

[King of the Americas]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1952867/British-Government-releases-UFO-files.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188750/french_government_release_ufo_files.html?cat=37

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/220206-New-Zealand-UFO-files-released

What is the skeptical response to this stuff?

[tsig]

You 'showed' rounded drilled shapes, with a few triangular carved lines...like the grooves cut into your balls to create those knobs. These things are accomplished by something entirely different than what cut the line in the picture at the above link.

Why would you even NEED to create a squared cut so small? Using mere hand tools to make that cut, with that kind of precision, would require WAY too time from a master mason to waste on a "line"... There's nothing ornate there. It is utilitarian. That cut was made with a machine.

A stick, bow, sand, and water can drill a hole in just about anything, given enough time. Square holes on the other hand require a different technique...

Foot shot.

[King of the Americas]

Foot shot.

You should have kept reading...

[carlitos]

Congratulations King of the Americas! Which signature do you think will carry more weight for the IOC, "Wet Rabbit," "WeirdUserName" or "hip hop sucks"? :)

By the way, just skimming the question as you wrote it, I think that you are mostly getting religious people.

[King of the Americas]

Congratulations King of the Americas! Which signature do you think will carry more weight for the IOC, "Wet Rabbit," "WeirdUserName" or "hip hop sucks"? :)

By the way, just skimming the question as you wrote it, I think that you are mostly getting religious people.

How bad should a real "John Smith" feel about offer his name to an endeavor?

The real question is who would someone offer mock support to a serious intention?

Whoever did that is a good 2 rungs below childish.

---
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/openingceremoies2012

[carlitos]

I think that those are real usernames and not "mock support," KotA. When I clicked "sign this petition" (I didn't actually go through with it), it asked to access my Facebook. I imagine it also accesses things like Yahoo and MSN names. Lots of people have usernames like that.

ETA - but, like I said, people have pretty bad reading comprehension (look at this thread for evidence), and you have the words "god in heaven" in your petition, so I'd guess that most of the support you get will be from Christians hoping for the rapture. This is partially due to the trick spot you have worked into by not calling aliens aliens.

[GeeMack]

How bad should a real "John Smith" feel about offer his name to an endeavor?

The real question is who would someone offer mock support to a serious intention?


I'm not sure anyone other than a dyed-in-the-wool UFO nutter would accept it as a serious intention.

Whoever did that is a good 2 rungs below childish.


When I try to go to the petition link I get this..

Phishing Site Blocked

Phishing is a fraudulent attempt to get you to provide
personal information under false pretenses.

Two rungs below childish? This could get you banned on many forums.

ETA...

I think that those are real usernames and not "mock support," KotA. When I clicked "sign this petition" (I didn't actually go through with it), it asked to access my Facebook. I imagine it also accesses things like Yahoo and MSN names.


Phishing indeed.

[King of the Americas]

I think that those are real usernames and not "mock support," KotA. When I clicked "sign this petition" (I didn't actually go through with it), it asked to access my Facebook. I imagine it also accesses things like Yahoo and MSN names. Lots of people have usernames like that.

ETA - but, like I said, people have pretty bad reading comprehension (look at this thread for evidence), and you have the words "god in heaven" in your petition, so I'd guess that most of the support you get will be from Christians hoping for the rapture. This is partially due to the trick spot you have worked into by not calling aliens aliens.

"god(s) of the heavens"...is what the petition says.

Not "G"od of Heaven, Christ, Jesus, Mohammed, or any other specific deity.

In fact, I'd argue that pluralizing god, might well drive believers away...

[RoboTimbo]

Congratulations King of the Americas! Which signature do you think will carry more weight for the IOC, "Wet Rabbit," "WeirdUserName" or "hip hop sucks"? :)

By the way, just skimming the question as you wrote it, I think that you are mostly getting religious people.

I thought "Testing", "Monster Hunter", or "Emo=Dead" had the most credibility until I saw "First Lady 1229422342". If it's good enough for Michelle, it should be good enough for me.

[GeeMack]

I thought "Testing", "Monster Hunter", or "Emo=Dead" had the most credibility until I saw "First Lady 1229422342". If it's good enough for Michelle, it should be good enough for me.


That's probably her phone number, too. I bet a direct call to suggest calling the UFOliens into the Olympics would get some results!

[Elizabeth I]

What is the skeptical response to this stuff?
People see stuff all the time. The fact that these things may be "unidentified" doesn't mean there is anything out of the ordinary happening. I may see a car speed away and around a corner before I can tell what make it is. That doesn't mean it was a DeLorean, when in the city where I live it is much more likely to have been a Chevy.

How bad should a real "John Smith" feel about offer his name to an endeavor?

The real question is who would someone offer mock support to a serious intention?

Whoever did that is a good 2 rungs below childish.
You do know that "John Smith" is kind of a joke name when people may wish to remain anonymous? Like in the old jokes where a guy signs into a motel with a woman who is not his wife and registers as "John Smith"?

1. I provided three examples (from many available), the other two show more detailed carving.
2. Your contention is that such hard rock could not be carved without advanced technology and yet in the three examples I provided, hard rock has been carved without advanced technology.

This Egyptian andesite jug carved and hollowed out, shows the level of expertise from 2920-2649 BC
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=4821472&sid=

How could they get a chisel into that and hollow it out without advanced technology?
KotA, please answer Stray Cat's question. Or is it your contention that some sort of laser was used? :rolleyes:

By the way, Stray Cat, the andesite jug is definitely more on point for this discussion, but in my opinion isn't in the same ballpark for beauty as this item (http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?pos=7&intObjectID=4821474&sid=) from the same auction. :D
How hard is alabaster compared to andesite?

[carlitos]

"god(s) of the heavens"...is what the petition says.

Not "G"od of Heaven, Christ, Jesus, Mohammed, or any other specific deity.

In fact, I'd argue that pluralizing god, might well drive believers away...

You missed my point on reading comprehension, thus proving it to be true. Good job.

ETA - so did I when I said god and not gods. I doubt people who are stupid enough to visit a known phishing site have the attention span to critically evaluate the petition they are signing. How many spam emails have you gotten since you registered there?

[King of the Americas]

...


KotA, please answer Stray Cat's question. Or is it your contention that some sort of laser was used? :rolleyes:

...

The work was done with hand drills.

[Elizabeth I]

The work was done with hand drills.

So - this is a real question, as I'm not aware of how these items are configured - the jug, or for that matter, the alabaster pitcher, is shaped as a rounded object with a cylindrical hole drilled down the middle? Not very useful for holding much, if so.

Are "hand drills" included in your definition of "modern technology"? Because they have been around since the ancient Egyptians. What kind of metal was used to make these drills that could shaped the dreaded andesite? Was the metal beyond the skills of ancient peoples to create?

[carlitos]

I apologize if it's been brought up here already, but I think that using quartz (sand) as part of the process was pretty widespread. This negates the "bronze isn't harder than marble/granite/andesite/etc." argument. A wet/dry bronze saw with sand could cut all of these stones, and tools used with sand could carve them. It would take a long time, but the dudes at Puma Punka had a couple of hundred years to kill, so no big deal.

[Stray Cat]

A stick, bow, sand, and water can drill a hole in just about anything, given enough time. Square holes on the other hand require a different technique...
What "different" technique would that be?

Maybe drill a series of round holes and then finish it all off straightening up the edges with the chisel or abrasive straight edge?

[King of the Americas]

What "different" technique would that be?

Maybe drill a series of round holes and then finish it all off straightening up the edges with the chisel or abrasive straight edge?

Drill me a 3 face corner...and lets compare your corner to those at Puma Punku.

You may use any size drill bit with a carbide tip to save you time. But you have to drill 'stone', and create a 90 angle corner.

I am warning you, 'rounded inner corners' are in your future...

[King of the Americas]

So - this is a real question, as I'm not aware of how these items are configured - the jug, or for that matter, the alabaster pitcher, is shaped as a rounded object with a cylindrical hole drilled down the middle? Not very useful for holding much, if so.

Are "hand drills" included in your definition of "modern technology"? Because they have been around since the ancient Egyptians. What kind of metal was used to make these drills that could shaped the dreaded andesite? Was the metal beyond the skills of ancient peoples to create?

The outside can be turned down on a simple lathe.

Water, sand, and a hard wood dowel rod + a sturdy bow WILL drill through just about anything, if only slowly.

Round stone edges are easy. It is the inner square sides that offer difficulty.

[Stray Cat]

Drill me a 3 face corner...and lets compare your corner to those at Puma Punku.

You may use any size drill bit with a carbide tip to save you time. But you have to drill 'stone', and create a 90 angle corner.


I am warning you, 'rounded inner corners' are in your future...
But I don't have the same amount of centuries of history and knowledge in stone cutting as the builders of Puma Punku did. I only have the design skills to visualise ways they could have done it.

But besides that, I wasn't saying only use drills. I was saying they could have used drills to remove the bulk of the stone and then finished it off with chisels and abrasive straight edges. It was your suggestion that drills could be used to drill out the hard stone of the Egyptian vase (relatively) easily, I was simply describing a way to similarly utilise the (relative) ease of drilling in order to speed up the process of cutting vast amounts of stone out.

[King of the Americas]

What "different" technique would that be?

Maybe drill a series of round holes and then finish it all off straightening up the edges with the chisel or abrasive straight edge?

When you make the corner, chipping out one face is common, if not unavoidable.

What happens is there an uneven amount of debris, that causes an uneven amount of pressure upon the strike, and then one of the faces gets bruised, then your corner doesn't look true.

Inner corners are tough, without really hard, fine, flat chisels.

[King of the Americas]

But I don't have the same amount of centuries of history and knowledge in stone cutting as the builders of Puma Punku did. I only have the design skills to visualise ways they could have done it.

...

Whatever the Pumu Punku-ians had, it is gone. 'We' don't have it anymore, it has been LOST.

[Sean84]

Whatever the Pumu Punku-ians had, it is gone. 'We' don't have it anymore, it has been LOST.

Maybe we're just looking in the wrong place. Have you tried looking up for a few minutes?

[Elizabeth I]

Whatever the Pumu Punku-ians had, it is gone. 'We' don't have it anymore, it has been LOST.

We may not know what their exact technique was, but that doesn't mean it went up in the sky with the Atlanteans who have since been buzzing the earth like a bunch of teenage guys harassing a pretty girl who happens to be unfortunate enough to be walking alone.

[Stray Cat]

When you make the corner, chipping out one face is common, if not unavoidable.

What happens is there an uneven amount of debris, that causes an uneven amount of pressure upon the strike, and then one of the faces gets bruised, then your corner doesn't look true.
I'm sure that if you were a 6th generation master stone mason who had taken on such a job, the skills required to do the job although difficult, would not be impossible. We have a viable method and obvious master stone masons... There is no need to imagine long lost advanced technology.

Inner corners are tough, without really hard, fine, flat chisels.
To you and me they may be tough... To the master masons of Puma Punku not so much.

BTW, I also think you may be overestimating the accuracy of some of those stones. Some are definitely better and more accurate than others... just as you'd expect if they were individually hand carved.

[Stray Cat]

Whatever the Pumu Punku-ians had, it is gone. 'We' don't have it anymore, it has been LOST.
Many ancient primitive skills have been lost... it's really nothing more than that we outgrew them and had no further need to remember them.

Somewhere along the way we also lost the instructions on how to build and use Stonehenge here in the UK... But it's OK because we can look on iCal to see when the solstice is... We no longer need to watch the sunrises to work it out.

[King of the Americas]

Maybe we're just looking in the wrong place. Have you tried looking up for a few minutes?

I DO have plans to do so during the opening ceremonies of the 1012 London Olympics.

I am calling it "a moment skyward".

[Elizabeth I]

I DO have plans to do so during the opening ceremonies of the 1012 London Olympics.

I am calling it "a moment skyward".
...and the first gold medal goes to...KotA, for inability to recognize sarcasm!

[King of the Americas]

...

To you and me they may be tough... To the master masons of Puma Punku not so much.

BTW, I also think you may be overestimating the accuracy of some of those stones. Some are definitely better and more accurate than others... just as you'd expect if they were individually hand carved.

Find a piece of copper, sharpen it, then use the point to make a mark on a piece of andesite.

THEN come back here and tell me what you learned.

Master masons or not, this work could NOT be accomplished with period tools.

[King of the Americas]

...and the first gold medal goes to...KotA, for inability to recognize sarcasm!

You're funny...'cause you missed my sarcasm...

[King of the Americas]

Many ancient primitive skills have been lost... it's really nothing more than that we outgrew them and had no further need to remember them.

...

We have been working stone with hammer and chisels for thousands of years. With progress, our tools have gotten harder and stronger. Making Puma Punku NOW with modern/advanced tools would be a difficult time consuming process. Trying to do it with period tools would prove impossible...

You simply can not make those cuts with copper tools.

The margin of error that I've seen would indicate the exact opposite of individually crafted stones.

[GeeMack]

I DO have plans to do so during the opening ceremonies of the 1012 London Olympics.

I am calling it "a moment skyward".


In some religions they're just honest enough to call it praying.

[GeeMack]

We have been working stone with hammer and chisels for thousands of years. With progress, our tools have gotten harder and stronger. Making Puma Punku NOW with modern/advanced tools would be a difficult time consuming process. Trying to do it with period tools would prove impossible...

You simply can not make those cuts with copper tools.

The margin of error that I've seen would indicate the exact opposite of individually crafted stones.


Yet you haven't shown that you've actually seen any margin of error. Science it quantitative. That margin you mentioned, plus or minus how many thousandths of an inch?

[Stray Cat]

Find a piece of copper, sharpen it, then use the point to make a mark on a piece of andesite.
THEN come back here and tell me what you learned.
Why?
I'm not part of an ancient civilisation that sees temples to gods as important enough to dedicate such time, effort and devotion to.

Hitting a piece of stone with a piece of metal isn't going to instill in me, the generations of knowledge and dedication to their craft that the skilled people of Puma Punku had.

Master masons or not, this work could NOT be accomplished with period tools.
And yet the other civilisations were carving the same types of stones at the same time with no trouble... If it's just a matter of straight lines (and some of them not very straight, looking at the photos), then your inability to recognise the ingenuity and skill of human craftsmen over the centuries is astounding.

[EHocking]

We have been working stone with hammer and chisels for thousands of years. With progress, our tools have gotten harder and stronger. Making Puma Punku NOW with modern/advanced tools would be a difficult time consuming process. Trying to do it with period tools would prove impossible...Show the evidence for this, rather than merely repeating your assertion.
You simply can not make those cuts with copper tools.Show the evidence for this, rather than merely repeating your assertion.
The margin of error that I've seen would indicate the exact opposite of individually crafted stones.A template is exactly what would be used to ensure individually crafted stones were cut to a required precision.

It is exactly the reason for USING templates in a process where multiple copies of a standard are required.

[EHocking]

You simply can not make those cuts with copper tools.What the Ancients Knew: Cutting Stone. (http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/29236-what-the-ancients-knew-stone-cutting-video.htm)

[Stray Cat]

We have been working stone with hammer and chisels for thousands of years. With progress, our tools have gotten harder and stronger. Making Puma Punku NOW with modern/advanced tools would be a difficult time consuming process. Trying to do it with period tools would prove impossible...
I'm quite sure that the people who made it (using their period tools) found it difficult and time consuming too... but with projects such as Puma Punku, that's kind of the point of building them. The Empire State Building didn't have to be as tall as it is... it was a symbol of prosperity and the building of it was responsible for finding methods of overcoming constructions problems... That's how things develop, by pushing the boundaries.

The margin of error that I've seen would indicate the exact opposite of individually crafted stones.
What margin of error are you looking at?
Have you ever been there?
If not, you have no better experience than I have (looking at a selection of photographs of what are probably the most impressive bits of carving).
Do you know what tolerances the builders of Puma Punku were working to?

There are some stones I can see definite chisel marks on... admittedly I don't know if those are the andesite stone you are talking about, but as we've already mentioned, the varying hardnesses of different stones is quite irrelevant when we know that all types of stone found there can be carved by tools they had available, by looking at various examples of andesite carving from around the world.

[King of the Americas]

What the Ancients Knew: Cutting Stone. (http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/29236-what-the-ancients-knew-stone-cutting-video.htm)

This is downright laughable...

The stone being worked here has NOTHING in common with Puma Punku andesite.

[Correa Neto]

I have no idea how I could kill an elephant with spears and bows - probably it would take a long time and be quite dangerous. I would have a hard time hunting down and killing an elephant even with a M-16 or AK-47. Removing, cleaning, transporting, storing, preserving and prepairing the meat would also be a big problem.

So, the logical conclusion is that our mammoth-hunting ancestors must have had advanced weapons, advanced transport equipment and advanced kitchen tools.

How arrogant and ignorant must be someone to deny our ancestors' intelligence, skills and achievments, attributing them to something else?

[EHocking]

This is downright laughable...

The stone being worked here has NOTHING in common with Puma Punku andesite.It was sandstone - just as at Puma Punku.

Further.
Cutting granite with copper/bronze tools. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting01.html)

It is quite obvious that this stone can be cut with ancient technology.

[King of the Americas]

It was sandstone - just as at Puma Punku.

Further.
Cutting granite with copper/bronze tools. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting01.html)

It is quite obvious that this stone can be cut with ancient technology.

It often helps if you'll READ the material within your links:

..."We're losing a lot of metal and very little stone is falling off," observes Hopkins, which is hardly the desired result. Hopkins' simple experiment makes this much clear: The Egyptians needed better tools than soft bronze and copper chisels to carve granite...

*Cutting granite or drilling holes in it is DIFFERENT than carving descending squares into it.

[King of the Americas]

...

How arrogant and ignorant must be someone to deny our ancestors' intelligence, skills and achievments, attributing them to something else?

The only ignorance here is yours...

I have repeatedly said that an advanced, now lost technology or skill, was at work here, meaning that whatever did this WAS better than they have been given credit for.

What we have here is a lost technology.

[EHocking]

It often helps if you'll READ the material within your links:

..."We're losing a lot of metal and very little stone is falling off,"very little <> none.
It is obvious that granite can be dressed with ancient tools, abeit less efficiently than with modern tools*Cutting granite or drilling holes in it is DIFFERENT than carving descending squares into it.The descending squares were NOT in granite, but in sandstone.

The previous video link demonstrates that cold-hammered hardened copper chisels are able to dress sandstone very accurately.
ETA: Egyptians also used bronze, which is harder than copper.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm

ETA ETA: And iron. Just as the S.Ams had at Puma Punku. Copper, bronze and iron tools.

You have persistently (deliberately?) confused dressing andesite statues with dressing sandstone construction blocks in your posts in this thread.

[Correa Neto]

The only ignorance here is yours...

I have repeatedly said that an advanced, now lost technology or skill, was at work here, meaning that whatever did this WAS better than they have been given credit for.

What we have here is a lost technology.

Oh, sure, I forgot you once said you ARE the truth.

Again- your whole argument in a nutshell is "I don't know how to do it without modern tools, so they must have had modern tools". This is ignorant and arrogant.

Show us evidence of the use of these tools: the tell-tale microwear marks they leave behind or bits of the tools. Ever considered why these things have never been reported?

[King of the Americas]

very little <> none.
It is obvious that granite can be dressed with ancient tools, abeit less efficiently than with modern toolsThe descending squares were NOT in granite, but in sandstone.

The previous video link demonstrates that cold-hammered hardened copper chisels are able to dress sandstone very accurately.
ETA: Egyptians also used bronze, which is harder than copper.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm

You have persistently (deliberately?) confused dressing andesite statues with dressing sandstone construction blocks in your posts in this thread.

These stones are andesite:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DTk1uyG8OXE/Spm-aMIuAcI/AAAAAAAAARM/H_6L2EeQ_fw/s400/puma_punku_letters.jpg

You are lying.

[carlitos]

We have been working stone with hammer and chisels for thousands of years. With progress, our tools have gotten harder and stronger. Making Puma Punku NOW with modern/advanced tools would be a difficult time consuming process. Trying to do it with period tools would prove impossible...

You simply can not make those cuts with copper tools.

The margin of error that I've seen would indicate the exact opposite of individually crafted stones.
Argument from Ignorance
This is downright laughable...

The stone being worked here has NOTHING in common with Puma Punku andesite.
Appeal to Perfection
I have no idea how I could kill an elephant with spears and bows - probably it would take a long time and be quite dangerous. I would have a hard time hunting down and killing an elephant even with a M-16 or AK-47. Removing, cleaning, transporting, storing, preserving and prepairing the meat would also be a big problem.

So, the logical conclusion is that our mammoth-hunting ancestors must have had advanced weapons, advanced transport equipment and advanced kitchen tools.

How arrogant and ignorant must be someone to deny our ancestors' intelligence, skills and achievments, attributing them to something else?
Yup.
These stones are andesite:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DTk1uyG8OXE/Spm-aMIuAcI/AAAAAAAAARM/H_6L2EeQ_fw/s400/puma_punku_letters.jpg

You are lying.
Your first question that started this whole mess asked about carving GRANITE with STONE AGE tools, Mr. Name-Caller. Watch yourself.

[King of the Americas]

...

Your first question that started this whole mess asked about carving GRANITE with STONE AGE tools, Mr. Name-Caller. Watch yourself.

I didn't call you a liar.

I said you were lying.

*I have since CHANGED my stance about the tools used. Referring to a changed stance, as my still holding it, is more intellectual dishonesty.

STOP lying.

[carlitos]

*I have since CHANGED my stance about the tools used.

Which, if you were paying attention, negates your whole "gods did it" hypothesis.

[Correa Neto]

I belive, KotA, you deserve EHocking an apology.
From the archeologists whom actually worked at Tiwanaku:

Can you tell me something about the stone quarries you investigate or list some literature?

Ponce Sangines published an extensive study on the origin of sandstones at the Pumapunku temple and ideas on how they were constructed. His book is called Pumapunku.
Pierre Protzen's study is one of best on the particulars of the masonry and construction method. He should be coming out with a substantial publication on his several years of study on the site.--Alexei Vranich
(my bolding)
Source:
http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/qanda.html

Again-If you want the truth, you should stick your head above the mud pool where Daniken and Co. dwell. Dump the arrogant and ignorant attitude of thinking your "gut feelings", "inspirations" can not be wrong.

ETA- Yes, there are andesite stones, too. But sandstone blocks are larger.
The stones in the ruins of Tiwanaku are basically of two types, sandstone and andesite. The largest of the sandstones in the ruins are and estimated 130 tons. The andesite stones approach somewhere around 30 tons. The closest sandstone quarries are about 10 kilometers away while the closest andesite stone quarries are on distant shores of Lake Titicaca.

http://www.reedboat.org/The%20Stone/thestone.html

Now, what about doing some actual work and trying to contact the folks involved in that experimental archeology project and ask them about the carving methods? Make a bet with them. 10K US grant they can not carve a stone with the tools (really) available back then. I bet they would love to have some extra funding.

[Correa Neto]

There's also these nice pieces of information:

http://www.reedboat.org/Research/Tiwanaku%20Masonry.pdf
http://www.reedboat.org/Research/Experimental%20Snow%20Archaeology.pdf

Sure, you may cherry-pick and mine quotes to suit your beliefs. However, the bottomline is, and always will be- no modern tools needed, no gods needed, no Atlanteans needed.

[RoboTimbo]

The only ignorance here is yours...

I have repeatedly said that an advanced, now lost technology or skill, was at work here, meaning that whatever did this WAS better than they have been given credit for.

What we have here is a lost technology.

Where do you think that technology came from?

[bruto]

Find a piece of copper, sharpen it, then use the point to make a mark on a piece of andesite.

THEN come back here and tell me what you learned.

Master masons or not, this work could NOT be accomplished with period tools.

Why copper? Why not the bronze alloy we know they possessed?

[carlitos]

Don't forget the sand.

[King of the Americas]

Which, if you were paying attention, negates your whole "gods did it" hypothesis.

This is not my stance, please stop lying.

[carlitos]

Sorry KotA. Is it your stance is that "Gods lent this technology to people, and then the people subsequently lost it?" Or "Gods lent this technology to people, and then they ascended to the heavens, taking their hand drills with them."

Perhaps you could clarify?

[RoboTimbo]

This is not my stance, please stop lying.

KotA, where do you think that technology came from?

[dafydd]

This is not my stance, please stop lying.

What is your stance?

[Correa Neto]

His stance?

I would describe it as cornered, left with nothing but blind belief, ignorance and arrogance to support his version of reality.

But hey, this stuff has been keeping religions afloat for centuries, hasn't it?

[King of the Americas]

KotA, where do you think that technology came from?

I don't know come 'from' anywhere...

I just know it's gone now.

[King of the Americas]

Sorry KotA. Is it your stance is that "Gods lent this technology to people, and then the people subsequently lost it?" Or "Gods lent this technology to people, and then they ascended to the heavens, taking their hand drills with them."

Perhaps you could clarify?

Either, or neither...

[Stray Cat]

I don't know come 'from' anywhere...

I just know it's gone now.

Person1: Who stole my Jaffacakes?
Person2: Where were they?
Person1: I don't know
Person2: Then how do you know they've gone
Person1: Because they're not there

[RoboTimbo]

I don't know come 'from' anywhere...

I just know it's gone now.

But you're no longer positing that it must have come from outside of their own culture and innate resource?

[dafydd]

I don't know come 'from' anywhere...

I just know it's gone now.

So it was just humans being resourceful and inventive,as they always have been.

[GeeMack]

I have repeatedly said that an advanced, now lost technology or skill, was at work here, meaning that whatever did this WAS better than they have been given credit for I can't back up my argument with evidence, so I repeatedly say things.


Fixed that for you.

[bruto]

I don't know come 'from' anywhere...

I just know it's gone now.

You still have absolutely no evidence that any technology existed then which has since been lost. You have provided only assumptions, based on your ignorance of technique.

Specialized tools now lost? Maybe. There are many specialized tools for obsolete skills which we would at least need to search very hard and long to find and reproduce.

Specialized skills now lost? Probably. Many crafts and skills were once practiced which required a long and arduous training and apprenticeship, as well as passing down accumulated knowledge. When nobody needs to do things this way, then they stop learning how.

Knowledge of specialized skills now lost? Probably. No written language, culture collapses and disappears, nobody needs to practice the skills....so nobody remembers precisely how things were done. But when skilled and imaginative people without mystical beliefs are motivated to figure these things out, they usually do.

Once again, there's plenty of evidence of superlative, surprising, and sophisticated know-how. There's none at all of unknown, forgotten, lost or mysterious technology.

[King of the Americas]

You still have absolutely no evidence that any technology existed then which has since been lost. You have provided only assumptions, based on your ignorance of technique.

...

The work present is evidence of technology beyond that of cold hammered copper tools...

These are the ONLY tools every found in the Americas from the period. I provided a link to the archaeological evidence of this (which you ignored).

So the tools that did this are 'missing'.

'I' am the only one here who isn't ignorant of the difficulty it takes to complete that work.

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.

YOU are the one 'in the dark', here, and you will remain so as long as you continue to ignore the links I've provided.

[King of the Americas]

So it was just humans being resourceful and inventive,as they always have been.

Possibly...

Except that those who did this, are gone, we don't have what they 'used', nor do we know how they employed their tools.

What did this work is gone, lost, and or utterly unknown to us.

[King of the Americas]

But you're no longer positing that it must have come from outside of their own culture and innate resource?

I never held that stance to begin with.

[King of the Americas]

Person1: Who stole my Jaffacakes?
Person2: Where were they?
Person1: I don't know
Person2: Then how do you know they've gone
Person1: Because they're not there

http://copperculture.homestead.com/

[carlitos]

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[bruto]

The work present is evidence of technology beyond that of cold hammered copper tools...

These are the ONLY tools every found in the Americas from the period. I provided a link to the archaeological evidence of this (which you ignored).

So the tools that did this are 'missing'.

'I' am the only one here who isn't ignorant of the difficulty it takes to complete that work.

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.

YOU are the one 'in the dark', here, and you will remain so as long as you continue to ignore the links I've provided.

It doesn't matter what tools are left. It's utterly absurd for you to assume that the absence of some tools requires belief in unknown technology and unknown "gods from heaven" when it is much likelier that the tools simply aren't there any more.

You are not the only one here with direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel do to hard stone. I, however, have the humility to suggest that if I have had limited or poor results in that craft, it is because I am not very good at it, rather than that if I can't do it, nobody can.

and I repeat, editing to add: whether or not cold hammered copper tools are all that have been found, we know from the evidence that the people doing this stone work were capable of producing bronze alloys.

[carlitos]

'I' am the only one here who isn't ignorant of the difficulty it takes to complete that work.

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.


Umm, no.
by the way, King, I have worked with stone, though it's never been a serious pursuit, and I do not claim expertise simply because I've carved a few pieces of marble and shaped a few blocks of one thing or another. But your assumption that your foray into amateur masonry is unique is just silly.

[Sean84]

I never held that stance to begin with.

This is, and always has been, your stance:

"Aliens did it then left because we weren't looking up enough."

That may be slightly over-simplified but it remains true despite all the bluster and talk about what you can't do to rocks.

A grossly over-simplified version goes like this:

ROCKS??? ALIENS!!!

[dafydd]

The work present is evidence of technology beyond that of cold hammered copper tools...

These are the ONLY tools every found in the Americas from the period. I provided a link to the archaeological evidence of this (which you ignored).

So the tools that did this are 'missing'.

'I' am the only one here who isn't ignorant of the difficulty it takes to complete that work.

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.

YOU are the one 'in the dark', here, and you will remain so as long as you continue to ignore the links I've provided.

Yes,you're the only one here who has seen a hammer and a chisel.

[Marduk]

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.
.

to be fair, the only evidence supporting that is your anecdote, and with anecdotes you should always consider the source. Even if its true (which it isn't because you didn't mention it the last time you talked crap about ancient masonry) your level of expertise is still that of an untrained amateur
:p

myself I studied sculpture under Michaelangelo and he says you're wrong

[Stray Cat]

myself I studied sculpture under Michaelangelo and he says you're wrong
That's the last place you'd want to stand... under him... you'd get covered in all the hard stone he was chipping from those blocks with his primitive tools.

:D

[King of the Americas]

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

That's beautiful...

[King of the Americas]

It doesn't matter what tools are left. It's utterly absurd for you to assume that the absence of some tools requires belief in unknown technology and unknown "gods from heaven" when it is much likelier that the tools simply aren't there any more.

You are not the only one here with direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel do to hard stone. I, however, have the humility to suggest that if I have had limited or poor results in that craft, it is because I am not very good at it, rather than that if I can't do it, nobody can.

and I repeat, editing to add: whether or not cold hammered copper tools are all that have been found, we know from the evidence that the people doing this stone work were capable of producing bronze alloys.

I did find this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nh1bZgs6i1IC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=cold+hammered+copper,+hardness&source=bl&ots=jH0em9-PMW&sig=zN-TBpVLipwuL2PvlcMMyWP2pjM&hl=en&ei=I7dGTbWoI8XTgQeN_fSzAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cold%20hammered%20copper%2C%20hardness&f=false

Please note the hardness of the alloys achieved.

[King of the Americas]

This is, and always has been, your stance:

"Aliens did it then left because we weren't looking up enough."

That may be slightly over-simplified but it remains true despite all the bluster and talk about what you can't do to rocks.

A grossly over-simplified version goes like this:

ROCKS??? ALIENS!!!

I don't believe in aliens...

You are lying...

You're wrong.

You should stop.

[Sean84]

I don't believe in aliens...
Yea, ya do.

You are lying...
Evidence or an apology. Pick one.

You're wrong.
Not so wrong that I think I have magical looking up powers.

You should stop.
Probably. But as long as you believe in downward-facing aliens, you big alien believer, you, I probably won't.

[Yeah_Right]

Actually I am beginning to wonder if KoTa has watched too many episodes of Star Gate Atlantis, in which the so called "ancients" have always been here, but eventually left the planet. Anyway, he does say these beings have always been here, but they would have had to have arrived on earth at some point, so wouldn't that make them aliens? So by that logic, he does believe in aliens. Just a guess there of course.

[Sean84]

Actually I am beginning to wonder if KoTa has watched too many episodes of Star Gate Atlantis, in which the so called "ancients" have always been here, but eventually left the planet. Anyway, he does say these beings have always been here, but they would have had to have arrived on earth at some point, so wouldn't that make them aliens? So by that logic, he does believe in aliens. Just a guess there of course.

I agree completely with the Stargate angle except for one minor quibble; Stargate's Ancients (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ancients) came from another galaxy.

KotA's "gods of the heavens" come from a garbled mess of explanations that equate to "aliens" in every sense but the simple fact that he doesn't want to call them that.

Either way; aliens, I say.

[bruto]

I did find this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nh1bZgs6i1IC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=cold+hammered+copper,+hardness&source=bl&ots=jH0em9-PMW&sig=zN-TBpVLipwuL2PvlcMMyWP2pjM&hl=en&ei=I7dGTbWoI8XTgQeN_fSzAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cold%20hammered%20copper%2C%20hardness&f=false

Please note the hardness of the alloys achieved.Too bad some pertinent pages are not included free, but I see from what you found that those folks possessed a gold-copper alloy that is said to be harder than regular bronze. Ordinary bronze when forged correctly is harder than plain wrought iron, and not too far behind forged iron, so although I haven't found good comparative charts yet it seems likely that the superior alloys in question would have been at least as good as, and possibly better than, those used by other ancient cultures whose bronze-age stone cutting technique is rather uncontroversially attributed by most to well trained human craftsmen. Of course we can't know for sure what bronze they used, but it is at least certain that they knew hot to make it.

Here's a link on Inca Metallurgy (http://incas.homestead.com/inca_metallurgy_copper.html), which cites successful modern experiments in the use of bronze and stone tools, along with abrasives, in the kind of work we're talking about:

Some axe blades bear evidence that they were used upon stone. Their structure shows severe damage of a character which could only result from very hard usage. They were probably used in cutting square holes in ashlars and in making sharp inside corners. It is difficult to conceive of any stone tools that could have been used successfully for this purpose. Some writers have assumed that the Incas use bronze implements to a large extent in finishing their best stone work. It seems to me, however, that even their best bronze was too soft to last long in such activities. It is not likely that it was often so employed. Experiments made in our National Museum have demonstrated that patience, perseverance, elbow grease and fine sand will enable stone tools of various shapes to work miracles in dressing and polishing both granite and andesite.

[King of the Americas]

Too bad some pertinent pages are not included free, but I see from what you found that those folks possessed a gold-copper alloy that is said to be harder than regular bronze. Ordinary bronze when forged correctly is harder than plain wrought iron, and not too far behind forged iron, so although I haven't found good comparative charts yet it seems likely that the superior alloys in question would have been at least as good as, and possibly better than, those used by other ancient cultures whose bronze-age stone cutting technique is rather uncontroversially attributed by most to well trained human craftsmen. Of course we can't know for sure what bronze they used, but it is at least certain that they knew hot to make it.

Here's a link on Inca Metallurgy (http://incas.homestead.com/inca_metallurgy_copper.html), which cites successful modern experiments in the use of bronze and stone tools, along with abrasives, in the kind of work we're talking about:

I have two chisels, one is carbide tipped, and the other is forged steel. I don't use the steel one on anything but limestone, and concrete patio stones. Granite dulls it fast. The granite dulls the carbide tip too, but you can get 'some' stone moved, (about- 6-8 grams), with an 1/8 inch lettering chisel, before it is dull.

Gold & copper alloys would be softer than my forged steel chisel...

Those stones weren't chiseled into those shapes.

[carlitos]

Goddamn it, KotA, why do you keep ignoring this?

Here's a link on Inca Metallurgy, which cites successful modern experiments in the use of bronze and stone tools, along with abrasives, in the kind of work we're talking about
Sand. Quartz. A *********** abrasive.

Experiments made in our National Museum have demonstrated that patience, perseverance, elbow grease and fine sand will enable stone tools of various shapes to work miracles in dressing and polishing both granite and andesite.

Sand! Go pound it.

[King of the Americas]

Goddamn it, KotA, why do you keep ignoring this?


Sand. Quartz. A *********** abrasive.



Sand! Go pound it.

You CAN easily, although time consuming, cut and polish any stone with water, sand, and a saw or drill.

These techniques WON'T cut square holes in stone, regardless of the font size you employ.

[Marduk]

You CAN easily, although time consuming, cut and polish any stone with water, sand, and a saw or drill.

These techniques WON'T cut square holes in stone, regardless of the font size you employ.

heres a video of water cutting square holes in Titanium
:p
szkUpaO3R0I

anyone with a basic grasp of physics will understand how "high pressure" and "time" are interchangeable
thats you out then KotA
:D

[I Am He]

KotA, if you're, as you say, such an accomplished, how do you say, stone maker can you please post some of your work? I would love to see some of your handy work. Or is that to much to ask for?



I Am He

[Correa Neto]

heres a video of water cutting square holes in Titanium
:p
szkUpaO3R0I

anyone with a basic grasp of physics will understand how "high pressure" and "time" are interchangeable
thats you out then KotA
:D

Great... Now KotA will claim the ascended golden age people used jets of water to cut stones...

[Correa Neto]

...snip...
'I' am the only one here who isn't ignorant of the difficulty it takes to complete that work.

'I' am the only one here with any direct knowledge of what a hammer and chisel to do hard stone upon striking it.

YOU are the one 'in the dark', here, and you will remain so as long as you continue to ignore the links I've provided.

Ignorance, arrogance...

You wrote "beautiful" in response to Carlitos posting Ozymandias. Oh, the sad irony.

"My name is King of the Americas:
Look on my ignorance and arrogance, ye critical thinkers, and despair!"

Sorry Shelley, really sorry for what I did....

[Cuddles]

Of course, this whole thing about hardness is a complete red herring anyway. Here's a simple experiment to perform:
Take a diamond. Now take a hammer. Hit the diamond with the hammer. What happens? The diamond breaks and the hammer will be perfectly intact, although probably with a small scratch.

Amazing. Diamond is the hardest natural substance known, yet a regular hammer made out of regular iron can smash one into powder while remaining essentially undamaged. The simple reason is that hardness is only one of several mechanical properties, and is often not the relevant one. In the situation we are discussing, toughness is far more important. The Wiki page for diamond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond#Hardness) has this to say on the subject:
Somewhat related to hardness is another mechanical property toughness, which is a material's ability to resist breakage from forceful impact. The toughness of natural diamond has been measured as 7.5–10 MPa·m1/2. This value is good compared to other gemstones, but poor compared to most engineering materials.
Despite being one of the hardest known substances, diamond is not actually particularly tough. It is difficult to polish or scratch, but relatively easy to break.

This is rather relevant, because we're not talking about people polishing or scratching stone, we're talking about them breaking them up into smaller stones. OK, so the smaller stones are still actually quite big, but that's not the point. The point is that just because the rocks here were hard does not mean it would be impossible to cut them into shape. Just as you can smash a diamond with a hammer, you can cut rocks into shape by hitting them with things, even if those things are softer than the rock.

[King of the Americas]

KotA, if you're, as you say, such an accomplished, how do you say, stone maker can you please post some of your work? I would love to see some of your handy work. Or is that to much to ask for?



I Am He

Where did I claim to be accomplished, an expert, or anything but an amateur stone mason???

I'd happily post a picture. Better yet, I'll make a video of me moving some granite with my forged steel chisel, and show you guys how little work is accomplished.

Then again, I've already linked the world's greatest stone masons carving stone with modern tools, that no one bothered to view. Ignorance of evidence abounds here...

[King of the Americas]

Great... Now KotA will claim the ascended golden age people used jets of water to cut stones...

I think water jets would count as advanced technology...

I wouldn't argue that's what was employed, until we uncover an ancient compressor.

[King of the Americas]

Ignorance, arrogance...

You wrote "beautiful" in response to Carlitos posting Ozymandias. Oh, the sad irony.

....

What can I say, I enjoy poetry...

[Correa Neto]

I think water jets would count as advanced technology...

I wouldn't argue that's what was employed, until we uncover an ancient compressor.

Hmmm...

So, untill hardware such as steel chisels, vidia bits, electric motors, or some sort of "rock molding machine", etc. are found, you can not argue that they used any sort of modern technology, right?

[King of the Americas]

Hmmm...

So, untill hardware such as steel chisels, vidia bits, electric motors, or some sort of "rock molding machine", etc. are found, you can not argue that they used any sort of modern technology, right?

The work is an indication of advanced technology.

WHAT that technology actually was will be told when we find it.

Until then, all that we know is that we DON'T know what was used, that the technology used to accomplish these work is "lost".

[Correa Neto]

Ah, I see... Generic, vague "advanced" as in "them", "ascended"...

But hey, if you can't find any single piece of the advanced hardware, then... Note you can not even find a bit of stainless steel, plastic, copper wire, glass, anything related to modern machinery at the sites you claim to have been built with these modern tool.

Now, besides this fact KotA, you are aware that each tool leaves its tell-tale mark on its product? So, where are the marks left by these advanced tools? Why there are no published study showing these marks?

And why are you ignoring the links we posted where experimental archeology folks say -and show- how the carvings could be made even with stone tools? Same is valid for the documentary on the building of Macchu Picchu?

Maybe because they do not fit with your "feelings"?

[dafydd]

I think water jets would count as advanced technology...

I wouldn't argue that's what was employed, until we uncover an ancient compressor.

So you've never heard of Hero of Alexandria.

[aggle-rithm]

I don't believe in aliens...


Amen! We're all brothers under the semi-permeable membrane.

[aggle-rithm]

The work is an indication of advanced technology.

WHAT that technology actually was will be told when we find it.

Until then, all that we know is that we DON'T know what was used, that the technology used to accomplish these work is "lost".

And the logical assumption would be that this technology, in whatever form, was developed by known entities, not fanciful hobgoblins.

[King of the Americas]

Ah, I see... Generic, vague "advanced" as in "them", "ascended"...

But hey, if you can't find any single piece of the advanced hardware, then... Note you can not even find a bit of stainless steel, plastic, copper wire, glass, anything related to modern machinery at the sites you claim to have been built with these modern tool.

Now, besides this fact KotA, you are aware that each tool leaves its tell-tale mark on its product? So, where are the marks left by these advanced tools? Why there are no published study showing these marks?

And why are you ignoring the links we posted where experimental archeology folks say -and show- how the carvings could be made even with stone tools? Same is valid for the documentary on the building of Macchu Picchu?

Maybe because they do not fit with your "feelings"?

How can one be specific about something unknown?

You tell ME why there are no published works about the tool marks?

I haven't ignored anything. I said that 'shaping' sandstone, limestone, or even marble is NOT the same thing as carving descending squares in andesite.

I've never seen a documentary featuring THE known and demonstrated building techniques of Macchu Picchu. Which link did I miss?

[King of the Americas]

And the logical assumption would be that this technology, in whatever form, was developed by known entities, not fanciful hobgoblins.

I've never mentioned hobgoblins either...

[tsig]

I agree completely with the Stargate angle except for one minor quibble; Stargate's Ancients (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ancients) came from another galaxy.

KotA's "gods of the heavens" come from a garbled mess of explanations that equate to "aliens" in every sense but the simple fact that he doesn't want to call them that.

Either way; aliens, I say.

If they don't come from the USA* then they are aliens.

*insert your country here

[King of the Americas]

So you've never heard of Hero of Alexandria.

I have.

The guy who invented the steam engine, among other things, but never put most of them to work, right?

He was the first to 'know' that heat makes water and air expand.

While some of his knowledge is indeed lost, some of his work remains intact.

[tsig]

I have two chisels, one is carbide tipped, and the other is forged steel. I don't use the steel one on anything but limestone, and concrete patio stones. Granite dulls it fast. The granite dulls the carbide tip too, but you can get 'some' stone moved, (about- 6-8 grams), with an 1/8 inch lettering chisel, before it is dull.

Gold & copper alloys would be softer than my forged steel chisel...

Those stones weren't chiseled into those shapes.

Is this and argument from incompetence?

[King of the Americas]

Is this and argument from incompetence?

It is a hammer, chisel, and stone. The pointy end of the chisel goes on the stone, then you hit the other end with the hammer. The heavier the hammer or harder the swing, the more stone your chisel will remove until it is dull.

One's competence rises, when you learn how hard to strike which part of the stone to achieve a desired result.

A mechanical hammer knows nothing, but moves stone fast.

A master mason knows when, where, and how to remove the right amount of stone, in a precise manner.

Your repeated attacks on my experience while you have none whatsoever is sad.

[Hellbound]

It is a hammer, chisel, and stone. The pointy end of the chisel goes on the stone, then you hit the other end with the hammer. The heavier the hammer or harder the swing, the more stone your chisel will remove until it is dull.

One's competence rises, when you learn how hard to strike which part of the stone to achieve a desired result.

A mechanical hammer knows nothing, but moves stone fast.

A master mason knows when, where, and how to remove the right amount of stone, in a precise manner.

Your repeated attacks on my experience while you have none whatsoever is sad.

So, are hammer and chisel the only possible stoneworking instruments? Just curious, because that seems to be the basis of your argument.

[King of the Americas]

So, are hammer and chisel the only possible stoneworking instruments? Just curious, because that seems to be the basis of your argument.

TODAY we use air hammers, water jets, sandblasters, diamond tipped saws, and carbide tipped chisels.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

[dafydd]

TODAY we use air hammers, water jets, sandblasters, diamond tipped saws, and carbide tipped chisels.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

The basis of your argument is false.

[King of the Americas]

The basis of your argument is false.

Only if you ignore the amount of mastery level work.

[Hellbound]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

So the only thing you DO know is that it could not be done with chisels.

You have no idea what other tools and/or methods they might have had or used.

From your comments, it's been shown that you likely don't know what was possible at the time with the materials they had available.

Your estimates of the level of work and the time required for it are based on your lack of knowledge, detailed here.

Therefore, you have no basis for the statement:
The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

[Waterman]

So the OP wants us to speculate how to entice an assumed non-human intelligent race that lives in the near proximity of earth to reveal themselves to us. Unfortunately they have hidden themselves so well that we only have fleeting glimpses of them and know nothing about their nature or motivations. I am still reading this thread sorry if this is currently irrelevant.

IF we assume that they are grooming us for fodder and DNA source material I would think that like attracting bird to land, or a raccoon to visit your porch you might place out a big bowl of food out in plain sight perhaps shine lights on it. Any large sporting event could also be applicable.

IF we assume that they are really super intelligent and are looking for peers not subjects. It would also be reasonable to also think that they will see through our clumsy attempts at appeasement and see us as the backwards race we are and not worthy of revelation yet. Perhaps they will reveal themselves once they have determined we have advanced far enough mentally. The appeasement / adoration you imply would clearly indicate to them that we are not ready.

IF we assume that they are a bunch of joy riding hot rods that get a kick out of coming down every now and them to buzz some small group out in the middle of nowhere. Then there is probably nothing we can due to entice them, they get their kicks out of being mysterious and don’t want the spot light. If they did they would have already taken center stage somewhere. The World Cup Finals would have been an excellent opportunity. As pointed out if they did descend it would turn ANY event into a major event and all eyes would be turned in that direction.

IF we assume that they are waiting for us to reach some sort of mental level that has abandoned superstition and that their revelation will not cause worldwide panic. I would imagine that they would be waiting for a large majority of us to adopt a scientific mindset instead of a superstitious one. The best way to get them to descend would be to have the majority of the world to abandon religions and convert all the Houses of Worship into sometime more useful like parking lots, brothels or play grounds.

IF we assume that they are allergic to or find poisonous the trace byproducts of the burning of fossil fuels then they will not descend until we move completely to alternate energy methods and then atmosphere had been cleansed through natural processes.

IF we assume that they are out there and want to deal with humans on a business level perhaps they are already doing that. But they know that by revealing themselves they will cause significant damage to the economy and cause significant instability in the political realm. This would not be a problem is the majority of the world was largely under the sway of say a large corporation or a one world government. They are waiting on the New World Order or Wal-Mart to come to power so they only have to negotiate one treaty instead of hundreds.

IF we assume that they have developed sensory organs that can detect the radio frequency range they will probably not descend until we abandon that technology or they develop filters that do not affect their ability to communicate.

IF we assume that they find the odor of concrete or asphalt offensive that would explain why they never actually land in cities or populated areas. To get them to descend we would need to tear down all the concrete structures and rip up all the asphalt and find alternate construction methods and materials.

IF we assume that they really don’t care what we do or think and are nothing more than lab animals or pets, I think that anything that we do would solicit no more than a note in a technicians log book or an ‘isn’t that cute’ from a more kind hearted individual… if they have hearts…

If we assume that they actually feed off the psychic energy generated by emotional turmoil the best way to get them to descend would be to establish world peace. This would cause them to starve and force them out. However if this is the case they would probably do something to destabilize the Peace that has been established by setting themselves of as the enemy that we can’t reach. Perhaps they would operate covertly with targeted assassinations turning body guards on their charges when they appear too reasonable, initiate riots to destabilize governments, plant evidence of WMDs to instigate wars, fund fundamentalist organizations of all stripes to keep us at odds with each other and destroy our common round, call in to talk radio shows…

Whee that was fun.

[GeeMack]

It seems like this comment...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, [...]


... is in direct conflict with this comment just a couple sentences later...

This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...


Claiming to not know in one breath, then demanding that we accept the premise of "advanced technology" in the next, is an argument from BS. Whether this is the work of a troll or not, it is absolutely the tactics of a troll.

[dafydd]

Only if you ignore the amount of mastery level work.

It's what masons do.

[Marduk]

Which link did I miss?

All of them, and particularly this
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/pumapunka14.jpg

which shows drill marks made by a native drill on a puma punku block, the same type used to make holes in beads, like these
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/history_jewelry_aztec_jadite_beads.jpg
these are made of Jadeite which is harder than andesite
so what KotA is saying here, is that native beads can only be made with advanced technology
woop de woop
:p

[aggle-rithm]

I've never mentioned hobgoblins either...

What would you call them, then?

And why would they be the more likely explanation than the people we KNOW were there?

Let's put it this way: Say you have a pack of cigarettes locked in a cabinet in your kitchen. They go missing, even though the cabinet remains locked and you have the only key.

Would it be more reasonable to assume that the culprit is:

A. A burglar?
B. A crafty teenager?
C. Bigfoot?

Hint: None of these options becomes more likely simply because we don't know how the cigarettes were taken.

[aggle-rithm]

All of them, and particularly this
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/pumapunka14.jpg

which shows drill marks made by a native drill on a puma punku block, the same type used to make holes in beads, like these
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/history_jewelry_aztec_jadite_beads.jpg
these are made of Jadeite which is harder than andesite
so what KotA is saying here, is that native beads can only be made with advanced technology
woop de woop
:p

One of my favorite stories is that of Easter Island, where western visitors puzzled over the giant statues found there. There were many competing theories about how they were crafted, from fairly reasonable explanations to the intervention of aliens or supernatural beings.

Then some clever soul got the bright idea to actually ASK THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE how the statues were built...and they, of course, knew exactly how it was done.

Some people will continue to believe it was the aliens, though.

[Stray Cat]

One of my favorite stories is that of Easter Island, where western visitors puzzled over the giant statues found there. There were many competing theories about how they were crafted, from fairly reasonable explanations to the intervention of aliens or supernatural beings.

Then some clever soul got the bright idea to actually ASK THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE how the statues were built...and they, of course, knew exactly how it was done.

Ah, but how did one get all the way to Crete?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Mag-Page-1.jpg

:boxedin: