Their Return

[Hellbound]

Ah, but how did one get all the way to Crete?


:boxedin:


DHL

[Stray Cat]

DHL
I think the answer is more like 'CS3'. :)

[King of the Americas]

Or maybe Magellan wasn't the first to circumnavigate the globe...?

MAYBE our ancient ancestors were not as disconnected and un-evolved as we assume they were...

[RoboTimbo]

Or maybe Magellan wasn't the first to circumnavigate the globe...?

MAYBE our ancient ancestors were not as disconnected and un-evolved as we assume they were...

I think you're the only one assuming they were disconnected and un-evolved.

[GeeMack]

I think you're the only one assuming they were disconnected and un-evolved.


Really. Apparently incredulity knows no bounds.

[King of the Americas]

I think you're the only one assuming they were disconnected and un-evolved.

How so...?

Do YOU believe there was a global civilization before Columbus made his trip?

[John Jones]

How can one be specific about something unknown?

You tell ME why there are no published works about the tool marks?

I haven't ignored anything. I said that 'shaping' sandstone, limestone, or even marble is NOT the same thing as carving descending squares in andesite.

I've never seen a documentary featuring THE known and demonstrated building techniques of Macchu Picchu. Which link did I miss?

That's another appeal to ignorance fallacy. I assume you are familiar with the term.

[RoboTimbo]

How so...?

The direction this thread has taken where you have disparaged the knowledge and abilities of indigenous people and their culture, claiming that they weren't smart enough or talented enough to accomplish the things that you are incapable of doing.

[bruto]

Or maybe Magellan wasn't the first to circumnavigate the globe...?

MAYBE our ancient ancestors were not as disconnected and un-evolved as we assume they were...Indeed, indeed, indeed not! You are the one who denies that those ancient craftsmen and masters could be the ancestors of those who are now on earth. It's you, after all, who claim that they packed up their science-fictional technology and flew away with it. It's you who are claiming that they were more evolved than our actual ancient ancestors.

By the way, do not get too invested in that picture. Just a hint to avoid continuing embarrassment.

[King of the Americas]

That's another appeal to ignorance fallacy. I assume you are familiar with the term.

I assume the reason you did post evidence to the contrary, is that you have NO evidence to the contrary...?

[carlitos]

I notice that 127,000 people voted on a Facebook petition (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=378959399988&ref=nf)for Iron Maiden to play in the opening ceremonies at the Olympics. How about we just have Eddie take a moment skyward and shoot lasers out of his eyeballs?

ETA -
e8NL9LEZJ9E

[GeeMack]

I assume the reason you did post evidence to the contrary, is that you have NO evidence to the contrary...?


Evidence to the contrary of... uh... to the contrary of no evidence at all? What on Earth is "to the contrary" of nothing? What is "to the contrary" of ignorance and incredulity? That is about the silliest construction of a non-argument I've seen on here in a long time!

:dl:

[bruto]

I assume the reason you did post evidence to the contrary, is that you have NO evidence to the contrary...?When you make something up, no evidence to the contrary is needed.

[tsig]

Ah, but how did one get all the way to Crete?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Mag-Page-1.jpg

:boxedin:

Is that from the Squid Fishing Monthly? I know they're a pretty eclectic publication.

[tsig]

Or maybe Magellan wasn't the first to circumnavigate the globe...?

MAYBE our ancient ancestors were not as disconnected and un-evolved as we assume they were...

Maybe they were advanced enough to know how to work stone.

[King of the Americas]

Maybe they were advanced enough to know how to work stone.

Working stone is easy. Cutting descending squares into andesite is not possible with copper tools.

[John Jones]

I assume the reason you did post evidence to the contrary, is that you have NO evidence to the contrary...?


I'm not in the habit of doing other peoples' homework for them. Can you think of any reason why I should?

[Sean84]

Working stone is easy. Cutting descending squares into andesite is not possible with copper tools.

What's with all this blather about your masonic incompetence?

Time spent talking about rocks is time spent not looking up! TIME WASTED!

[dafydd]

I'm not in the habit of doing other peoples' homework for them. Can you think of any reason why I should?

We should help the less fortunate.

[Elizabeth I]

Ah, but how did one get all the way to Crete?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Mag-Page-1.jpg

:boxedin:

What, nobody gets to go on vacation? I hear the Greek isles are lovely.

[King of the Americas]

So skeptics, did the Easter Islanders have a written language, as to export their designs for their Moai, or did they export these statues like concert T-shirts?

[GeeMack]

So skeptics, did the Easter Islanders have a written language, as to export their designs for their Moai, or did they export these statues like concert T-shirts?


False dichotomy. Boy, picking out the logical fallacies in this thread is a piece of cake.

[aggle-rithm]

How so...?

Do YOU believe there was a global civilization before Columbus made his trip?

No one had the infrastructure to maintain a global civilization before Columbus made his trip.

If it existed, then surely we would find signs of it.

Until we do, there is no reason to believe it existed.

[aggle-rithm]

Working stone is easy. Cutting descending squares into andesite is not possible with copper tools.

Assuming copper tools are what they used.

[aggle-rithm]

So skeptics, did the Easter Islanders have a written language, as to export their designs for their Moai, or did they export these statues like concert T-shirts?

Here's another possibility: They had a strong oral tradition.

This is something Alex Haley discovered when he was researching Roots. Some African tribes kept meticulous geneological records without writing anything down. The records were verbally passed down, verbatim, from one generation to the next. Haley theorized that our natural ability to memorize verbal data has become atrophied by our dependence on written language.

If I remember correctly. Which I may not because of my dependence on written language.

[aggle-rithm]

One of my favorite stories is that of Easter Island, where western visitors puzzled over the giant statues found there. There were many competing theories about how they were crafted, from fairly reasonable explanations to the intervention of aliens or supernatural beings.

Then some clever soul got the bright idea to actually ASK THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE how the statues were built...and they, of course, knew exactly how it was done.


It looks like this is exactly what I said it was...a story. My dad told me this years ago, but I can't find any information that indicates that modern Easter Islanders knew how the statues were built and transported.

But, it probably has something to do with all the trees that disappeared around the time they stopped making the statues.

[carlitos]

I have emailed a couple of archeologists that dug the site. Will post results. In the meantime, from the Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians:
Inca construction techniques have long been the subject of wild speculation. Investigations of ancient quarry sites and of numerous cut-stone walls reveal that the amazing Inca constructions were built with very simple means. Stones were selected out of rock falls or just broken out of a rock face with pry-bars. If the blocks needed to be parted, big hammerstones were used to split them. To dress the stones smaller hammerstones were used to pound them until they had the desired shape. The fitting of one stone to another was done by cutting the already laid stones to receive the next ones in a trial-and-error fashion. Experiments show that with this process stones can be mined, cut, dressed, and fit with little effort and in a short time.

ETA - King of the Americas, can you please confirm the following? I just want to make sure I have your argument straight.


you are incredulous about the Egyptian pyramids because of the logistics of moving so many heavy stones (every 9 seconds...)
you are incredulous about Puma Punku because of the carving technique used on the green andecite stone monoliths
do you still maintain that there is something other-worldly (lost advanced technology, whatever) about the sandstone, or have you dropped that?

I appreciate the clarity; it will help me when I hear from these archeologists.

[Stray Cat]

So skeptics, did the Easter Islanders have a written language, as to export their designs for their Moai, or did they export these statues like concert T-shirts?
I think it much more likely that the good people of Rapanui didn't export their statues at all.
The most likely explanation I can find is that the magazine article I posted is part of an advertising campaign for this album:
Rhythms del Mundo Revival (http://www.apeuk.org/revival)

[bruto]

So skeptics, did the Easter Islanders have a written language, as to export their designs for their Moai, or did they export these statues like concert T-shirts?I can't imagine how they did it, so they must have used really advanced technology. They probably shipped them by air freight, on the famous Lirpa Loof system. You didn't heed my warning back there, did you?

[King of the Americas]

Assuming copper tools are what they used.

Because that is what has thus far been found...

[King of the Americas]

Here's another possibility: They had a strong oral tradition.

This is something Alex Haley discovered when he was researching Roots. Some African tribes kept meticulous geneological records without writing anything down. The records were verbally passed down, verbatim, from one generation to the next. Haley theorized that our natural ability to memorize verbal data has become atrophied by our dependence on written language.

If I remember correctly. Which I may not because of my dependence on written language.

Really...? You think one non-sculptor could tell another how to build one of those Moai?

Wait, how did the knowledge get from one place to another, without cross oceanic journey capability???

[EHocking]

..But, it probably has something to do with all the trees that disappeared around the time they stopped making the statues.It probably didn't.

It is much more likely that the population being ravaged by Westerners landing and raiding on the island had the most influence on the collapse of their culture and certainly more impact on their environment. There is more evidence that their forests were deliberately devastated by Western slavers etc to demoralise the population than the oft alluded legend that the islanders destroyed their trees/environment because of Moai building.

(warning this is a pet soapbox of mine)

[carlitos]

KotA, This is flying over your head, so allow me.

The Easter Island colossal heads didn't travel anywhere else. They weren't found anywhere else. You are explaining photoshop, by positing ancient aliens "cross oceanic journey capability." You're making a fool of yourself.

Is there a chance you'll answer my simple questions above, regarding your argument?

[King of the Americas]

I have emailed a couple of archeologists that dug the site. Will post results. In the meantime, from the Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians:

...


you are incredulous about the Egyptian pyramids because of the logistics of moving so many heavy stones (every 9 seconds...)
you are incredulous about Puma Punku because of the carving technique used on the green andecite stone monoliths
do you still maintain that there is something other-worldly (lost advanced technology, whatever) about the sandstone, or have you dropped that?

I appreciate the clarity; it will help me when I hear from these archeologists.

*There are LOTS of really interesting stone work on the GP. The cap stone(s) above the queens chamber for example, they were slid down a shaft into place from above. The stones would crush anyone under it, as it was too big for men alone to put in place, and there was no room around the outside for ropes. Weird. The work itself is literally a marvel, containing no markings, but a single inscription 'painted' in an upper anti-chamber. The problem is that its true contents and purpose is lost. Yet mysteries remain, as several shafts remain blocked and unexplored. The last numbers I looked at said the structure was built in 20, suggesting that they placed an average of 2 tons worth of stone every 9 seconds. If THAT is true, then an 'advanced technology' was employed. Men, ropes, and sand ramps with rollers, did NOT alone do that...

*It is the AMOUNT of mastery level carving there that is simply unbelievable. You simply can't do that without advanced tools and a written language, period. Puma Punku required something now lost.

*There are LOTS of stonework, all around the world. Not all of it is from the same age, and not all of it was done with the same tools. Some of it, is out of place, timeline wise. Meaning that some works are much more advanced, yet lay in the ancient past, before known advanced technology.

I look forward to hearing more about the misplaced Moai.

[Correa Neto]

How can one be specific about something unknown?

You tell ME why there are no published works about the tool marks?

I haven't ignored anything. I said that 'shaping' sandstone, limestone, or even marble is NOT the same thing as carving descending squares in andesite.

I've never seen a documentary featuring THE known and demonstrated building techniques of Macchu Picchu. Which link did I miss?

Please check the *.pdfs I linked before, showing how the stones could have been transported and carves, the links to Quala Ympu project and Nat Geo special edition broadcasted from January 17th to 23rd honoring Machu Picchu discovery 100 years ago.

By the way, how's the work on kissing the sculptors and swallowing all you wrote going?

[bruto]

Because that is what has thus far been found...Except, of course, for the sophisticated and surprisingly hard bronze alloys to which you so kindly linked a while back, and the bronze alloys that were conspicuously used to join stones together. Do you really think they had these superior alloys and used them, but never thought to upgrade their copper chisels?

Much of our knowledge of ancient cultures comes, not from what they kept but from what they threw away. Perhaps we now find copper tools because they were the ones nobody carried off or stole when the civilization collapsed and all the people left.

[carlitos]

*There are LOTS of really interesting stone work on the GP. The cap stone(s) above the queens chamber for example, they were slid down a shaft into place from above. The stones would crush anyone under it, as it was too big for men alone to put in place, and there was no room around the outside for ropes. Weird. The work itself is literally a marvel, containing no markings, but a single inscription 'painted' in an upper anti-chamber. The problem is that its true contents and purpose is lost. Yet mysteries remain, as several shafts remain blocked and unexplored. The last numbers I looked at said the structure was built in 20, suggesting that they placed an average of 2 tons worth of stone every 9 seconds. If THAT is true, then an 'advanced technology' was employed. Men, ropes, and sand ramps with rollers, did NOT alone do that...

*It is the AMOUNT of mastery level carving there that is simply unbelievable. You simply can't do that without advanced tools and a written language, period. Puma Punku required something now lost.

*There are LOTS of stonework, all around the world. Not all of it is from the same age, and not all of it was done with the same tools. Some of it, is out of place, timeline wise. Meaning that some works are much more advanced, yet lay in the ancient past, before known advanced technology.

I look forward to hearing more about the misplaced Moai.

OK, just for clarity, I am going to interpret that as:

Yes you don't believe that ancient Egyptians could move heavy Pyramid stones every 9 seconds

Yes you don't believe that ancient 1100 years ago Incas could carve squares into andesite

Sandstone? I can't tell what your problem is with the sandstone based on your last answer. Seems like general incredulity, which isn't an argument at all, so I can't respond to it. Nothing to respond to. Are you even aware that the stone age ended at different times in different places?


If at this point, after reading this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6832141#post6832141), this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6834840#post6834840) and this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6835120#post6835120), you really don't understand the joke about the Maoi statues, I think that might explain some of your other views. If that's the case, I hope that the archeologists blow off my emails, because you simply can't comprehend what they will say.

[Psiload]

*There are LOTS of really interesting stone work on the GP. The cap stone(s) above the queens chamber for example, they were slid down a shaft into place from above. The stones would crush anyone under it, as it was too big for men alone to put in place, and there was no room around the outside for ropes. Weird. The work itself is literally a marvel, containing no markings, but a single inscription 'painted' in an upper anti-chamber. The problem is that its true contents and purpose is lost. Yet mysteries remain, as several shafts remain blocked and unexplored. The last numbers I looked at said the structure was built in 20, suggesting that they placed an average of 2 tons worth of stone every 9 seconds. If THAT is true, then an 'advanced technology' was employed. Men, ropes, and sand ramps with rollers, did NOT alone do that...

*It is the AMOUNT of mastery level carving there that is simply unbelievable. You simply can't do that without advanced tools and a written language, period. Puma Punku required something now lost.

*There are LOTS of stonework, all around the world. Not all of it is from the same age, and not all of it was done with the same tools. Some of it, is out of place, timeline wise. Meaning that some works are much more advanced, yet lay in the ancient past, before known advanced technology.


And that's it? The GotGoneGods applied their amazing advanced technology to cutting and piling up rocks? Nothing more? And they meticulously collected every scrap and crumb of their advanced rock cutting and piling technology and took it with them when they left? The left behind not so much a Twinkie wrapper or a Tupperware lid? All that remains is a few ambiguous, debatable signs of their handiwork, yet not a single nut, bolt or broken unobtanium cutting blade?

Why? Why were the GotGoneGods so meticulously fastidious about tidying up after themselves? Were they setting up some sort of 'test-of-faith' scenario to mess with our modern day heads? Like... we have to accept that they existed based upon the scantest of evidence in order to prove ourselves faithful and worthy? Is this just more silly, ass backwards, attention whoring antics?

I look forward to hearing more about the misplaced Moai.


I'll bet you do.

Wow. Some people just need to be hit over the head with a frying pan. :rolleyes:

[Correa Neto]

Dear Mr. King of the Americas,

My name is Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum. I happen to be in the guard of a genuine 15,000 years old Atlantean artifact, a data storage crystal. This extraordinary object, probably the most groundbreaking archeological discovery of all times, is in great danger due to the current volatile political situation of Africa. Your name has been indicated to me by a third party, member of a secret organization of initiates, as being a reliable and trustworthy person in conditions to carry on the mission of safely guarding this object and showing it to the world in the 2012 Olympiads opening cerimony, as part of the events which will pave the way for the much awaited return and unveiling of the long-gone golden people of Atlantis.

Please note that our situation is desperate and the object can not be dispatched through regular channels. We are then forced to ask for further help, by depositing U$50,000.00 at the following bank account:

Account 16180339887, Bank of Nigeria

The money will be used to cover expenses with charter flights between Africa and the USA, the inevitable bribes at customs and other organizations, to keep secrecy and also to help funding the required hardware at your house to store it safely, as well as your trip to London in 2012 (safety measures and VIP accommodations included). Once the deposit is confirmed, an agent of ours will leave Abuja with the object and deliver it, with the proper storing hardware and instructions, to you at your house. A few months prior to the Olympiads, new instructions will be given to you.

Looking forward to share this great honor with you,
Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum

[King of the Americas]

Except, of course, for the sophisticated and surprisingly hard bronze alloys to which you so kindly linked a while back, and the bronze alloys that were conspicuously used to join stones together. Do you really think they had these superior alloys and used them, but never thought to upgrade their copper chisels?


...

Those are no match for forged steel, which I have employed, and know that it is no match for granite.

Sorry bronze alloys are no match for andesite.

[bruto]

King, in case Psiload's comments also flew over your head, let me ask it this way:

Nothing you've cited so far suggests that the ancient lost technology involved anything but stonecutting. They left behind a lot of rocks, but not one advanced tool, wire, or machine. You point out how hard it is to convey technological wisdom without a written language. So where is their writing? They worked in stone, but inscribed nothing? How did they develop their technology without writing? Did they fly away on stoneware saucers? Sail off like Saint Mael in stone tubs? Should we be listening to Stone Temple Pilots records for clues to the ancient mysteries?

e.t.a. PS, St. Mael is fictitious. Please do not get involved or invested in the mystery of stone tub navigation, or in the question of whether penguins are accountable for their sins.

[King of the Americas]

Dear Mr. King of the Americas,

My name is Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum. I happen to be in the guard of a genuine 15,000 years old Atlantean artifact, a data storage crystal. This extraordinary object, probably the most groundbreaking archeological discovery of all times, is in great danger due to the current volatile political situation of Africa. Your name has been indicated to me by a third party, member of a secret organization of initiates, as being a reliable and trustworthy person in conditions to carry on the mission of safely guarding this object and showing it to the world in the 2012 Olympiads opening cerimony, as part of the events which will pave the way for the much awaited return and unveiling of the long-gone golden people of Atlantis.

Please note that our situation is desperate and the object can not be dispatched through regular channels. We are then forced to ask for further help, by depositing U$50,000.00 at the following bank account:

Account 16180339887, Bank of Nigeria

The money will be used to cover expenses with charter flights between Africa and the USA, the inevitable bribes at customs and other organizations, to keep secrecy and also to help funding the required hardware at your house to store it safely, as well as your trip to London in 2012 (safety measures and VIP accommodations included). Once the deposit is confirmed, an agent of ours will leave Abuja with the object and deliver it, with the proper storing hardware and instructions, to you at your house. A few months prior to the Olympiads, new instructions will be given to you.

Looking forward to share this great honor with you,
Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum

I can't believe you wasted time out of your life posting this...

[Correa Neto]

Don't disbelieve, just send the money!





I can't believe you are wasting time of your life on a petition for the return of the sky gods on the Olympiads or trying to convince us about your ascended ancient golden age race without a single bit of reliable evidence... I also can't believe you got duped by the Crete Moai stuff... This speaks volumes about the way you think. You should consider re-evaluating your beliefs in light of this.

I must say I think I lost time of my life trying to show you how you got things (very) wrong. Writing the post you talked about was actually a pleasure.

Don't forget to send money!

[tsig]

Dear Mr. King of the Americas,

My name is Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum. I happen to be in the guard of a genuine 15,000 years old Atlantean artifact, a data storage crystal. This extraordinary object, probably the most groundbreaking archeological discovery of all times, is in great danger due to the current volatile political situation of Africa. Your name has been indicated to me by a third party, member of a secret organization of initiates, as being a reliable and trustworthy person in conditions to carry on the mission of safely guarding this object and showing it to the world in the 2012 Olympiads opening cerimony, as part of the events which will pave the way for the much awaited return and unveiling of the long-gone golden people of Atlantis.

Please note that our situation is desperate and the object can not be dispatched through regular channels. We are then forced to ask for further help, by depositing U$50,000.00 at the following bank account:

Account 16180339887, Bank of Nigeria

The money will be used to cover expenses with charter flights between Africa and the USA, the inevitable bribes at customs and other organizations, to keep secrecy and also to help funding the required hardware at your house to store it safely, as well as your trip to London in 2012 (safety measures and VIP accommodations included). Once the deposit is confirmed, an agent of ours will leave Abuja with the object and deliver it, with the proper storing hardware and instructions, to you at your house. A few months prior to the Olympiads, new instructions will be given to you.

Looking forward to share this great honor with you,
Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum

Dr. Abdul Comuku

So sorry due to infamilarity between US & Uk moneys notation i hav accidentily sent you $50 million not 50 thousand so please to send me difference in return.

Bank # 45678910

Acc# 007

My many thanks for your prompt rectitude in this matter.

[Correa Neto]

Dear Mr. Tsig

I regret to inform the money has already been spent funding our operations. In exchange, we will send you a genuine Atlantean crystal skull for you to guard. It must be kept untill the Golden People of Atlantis return. Yours now is a more important mission than King of the Americas'!

Best Regards,
Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum

[carlitos]

The same thing happened to Dan Akroyd, but with vodka inside.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee303/rtighe85/Aykroyd.jpg

[bruto]

Those are no match for forged steel, which I have employed, and know that it is no match for granite.

Sorry bronze alloys are no match for andesite.So you say from your limiited experience in the "blunt trauma" school of masonry. But whether or not it is true, my post was directed at your continual claim that the tools were copper. We know that these people had better alloys, and that they were working sandstone and andesite, not granite.

You have yet to come up with one shred of evidence that a skilled mason cannot work sandstone and andesite with the alloys and materials we know the Puncha Punku masons had available. All we have so far is your combination of incredulity when you look at the ground and your extreme credulity when you look at the sky.

[tsig]

Dear Mr. Tsig

I regret to inform the money has already been spent funding our operations. In exchange, we will send you a genuine Atlantean crystal skull for you to guard. It must be kept untill the Golden People of Atlantis return. Yours now is a more important mission than King of the Americas'!

Best Regards,
Dr. Abdul Comuku, director of the Abuja National Museum

Mr. Comuke

Since I can't work crystal with a q-tip i have to accept that the Atlantians have made the skull. be assured I will guard it with my very life, the life of my wife and all my family unto the last generation.

What might the market value of the skull be, perely for onformational purposes of course.

tsig, caretaker of the crystal skull

P.S. my banker has informed me that I am now in debt for 1000 million dollars. can you shed any light on that?

[tsig]

So you say from your limiited experience in the "blunt trauma" school of masonry. But whether or not it is true, my post was directed at your continual claim that the tools were copper. We know that these people had better alloys, and that they were working sandstone and andesite, not granite.

You have yet to come up with one shred of evidence that a skilled mason cannot work sandstone and andesite with the alloys and materials we know the Puncha Punku masons had available. All we have so far is your combination of incredulity when you look at the ground and your extreme credulity when you look at the sky.

I think he's trying to tell us the secret. Do not look at the stone but look up and allow the notthealien forces to enter your brain and guide your hands. This will cause the molecular properties of the metal to change so the stone can be cleaved like soft butter.

True masters do not even need tools.

[aggle-rithm]

Those are no match for forged steel, which I have employed, and know that it is no match for granite.

Sorry bronze alloys are no match for andesite.

I guarantee you that if you placed an experienced mason into Peru and asked him/her to duplicate the Incas' stonework using only native materials, he/she would be able to figure out how to do it, given enough time.

It wouldn't necessarilly be the way most people would expect.

People are very, very clever. People thousands of years ago had the same brain that modern humans have. There's nothing magical about it.

ETA: I base this in part on a documentary I saw a while back where a celebrated archeologist came up with a theory of how the pyramids were built, and asked a mason to assist him in proving it. The mason quickly figured out that the archeologist's method wouldn't work, and just as quickly came up with a method that WOULD work...very likely the very method used by the Egyptians.

[GeeMack]

I guarantee you that if you placed an experienced mason into Peru and asked him/her to duplicate the Incas' stonework using only native materials, he/she would be able to figure out how to do it, given enough time.

It wouldn't necessarilly be the way most people would expect.

People are very, very clever. People thousands of years ago had the same brain that modern humans have. There's nothing magical about it.


Indeed. Having some experience in manipulating stone, metal, glass, ceramics, and wood, and having very much experience in being clever, I would suggest you could put an experienced woodworker in that situation and he/she could come up with do-able methods for duplicating the Incas' stonework using only native materials. This whole argument about advanced technology backed with nothing but ignorance and incredulity is just about the silliest attempt to bolster one's faith that I've seen outside a religious discussion.

[aggle-rithm]

I can't believe you are wasting time of your life on a petition for the return of the sky gods on the Olympiads or trying to convince us about your ascended ancient golden age race without a single bit of reliable evidence... I also can't believe you got duped by the Crete Moai stuff... This speaks volumes about the way you think. You should consider re-evaluating your beliefs in light of this.


Yeah, but that Nigeria stuff is fake. Aliens* are REAL, man!!!




*or hobgoblins, or whatever they are.

[carlitos]

KotA agreed that gods would be an OK term, so I can't say that we are "outside a religious discussion."

[Correa Neto]

Mr. Comuke

Since I can't work crystal with a q-tip i have to accept that the Atlantians have made the skull. be assured I will guard it with my very life, the life of my wife and all my family unto the last generation.

What might the market value of the skull be, perely for onformational purposes of course.

tsig, caretaker of the crystal skull

P.S. my banker has informed me that I am now in debt for 1000 million dollars. can you shed any light on that?

404 error

Atlantean and alien gods not found...

ETA- 404 error for your money too. Must have been sucked by some vortex at the Bermuda Triangle...

[Psiload]

I can't believe you wasted time out of your life posting this...

This coming from the guy who dropped out of college so he could devote time out of his life to organizing a concert in the desert for the purpose of gazing skyward and welcoming the return of the space Gods*.

(*- Which is what you believed at the time.)

[King of the Americas]

This coming from the guy who dropped out of college so he could devote time out of his life to organizing a concert in the desert for the purpose of gazing skyward and welcoming the return of the space Gods*.

(*- Which is what you believed at the time.)

What can I say, my time is much more valuable these days.

[Yeah_Right]

This coming from the guy who dropped out of college so he could devote time out of his life to organizing a concert in the desert for the purpose of gazing skyward and welcoming the return of the space Gods*.

(*- Which is what you believed at the time.)


He did what??, I wonder what his parents thought?

[carlitos]

He did what??, I wonder what his parents thought?

geocities websites do not age well. Click the rotating globe to read about WPI.
Okay... it's coming back to me now. Back when I first became aware of "the King", he was planning something called The World Peace Initiative. Which was to be a free concert held in the desert on the evening the New Year's Eve back in 2000.

I remember him outlining plans to have everyone gaze skyward at the stroke of midnight and welcome the alien space visitors. Yep... I specifically remember the whathaveyous came from outer space back then.

Ah... found it...

http://geociti.es/CapitolHill/Congress/9269/ajknabe.html

A.J. Knabe A self proclaimed "modern day Picasso", this 23 yeard old believes that he knows the secrets to life, God, and the search for happiness. The only problem is no one wants to listen to him...

[Yeah_Right]

geocities websites do not age well. Click the rotating globe to read about WPI.


Poor website design mingled with ummm, bizarre ideas, typical for a woo it seems. The only thing that came to mind reading that was the word, "seriously?"

[King of the Americas]

geocities websites do not age well. Click the rotating globe to read about WPI.

Oh, to be young and full of idealism, again...

2 and a half years, a car, and thousands of dollars later, NOTHING happened, but a dozen stoners gathered around a campfire. NO live broadcast, no fan fair, and ZERO results.

The concert began and ended with Howard Stern's remark, "lu-lu-nu-nu-cukoo?"

I must have made that jag-off 2 dozen copies of my essays. Stutter Jon told me that the whole on-air staff had read them, and that Howard would be calling me at 7:45. At the end of his show, he gives me a ring around 10, and tells me he didn't read anything.

The "King of all Media" was supposed to be my first official booked act. Instead he crushed my dream in a mere 6 syllables.

I really hate that guy...

[RoboTimbo]

Oh, to be young and full of idealism, again...

2 and a half years, a car, and thousands of dollars later, NOTHING happened, but a dozen stoners gathered around a campfire. NO live broadcast, no fan fair, and ZERO results.

The concert began and ended with Howard Stern's remark, "lu-lu-nu-nu-cukoo?"

I must have made that jag-off 2 dozen copies of my essays. Stutter Jon told me that the whole on-air staff had read them, and that Howard would be calling me at 7:45. At the end of his show, he gives me a ring around 10, and tells me he didn't read anything.

The "King of all Media" was supposed to be my first official booked act. Instead he crushed my dream in a mere 6 syllables.

I really hate that guy...

How do you feel about the no-show aliens gods whateverthehelltheyare?

[GeeMack]

Oh, to be young and full of idealism, again...

2 and a half years, a car, and thousands of dollars later, NOTHING happened, but a dozen stoners gathered around a campfire. NO live broadcast, no fan fair, and ZERO results.


Is it sane to expect the moment-skyward suggestion to the Olympics organizers to fare any better? :boggled:

[Hellbound]

You know, if it makes you feel any better, Howard Stern probably doesn't even remember you...

[Psiload]

Oh, to be young and full of idealism, again...

2 and a half years, a car, and thousands of dollars later, NOTHING happened, but a dozen stoners gathered around a campfire. NO live broadcast, no fan fair, and ZERO results.

***snip***

Hey... we tried to warn you. We spent a good year trying to talk sense into you as I recall it.

[carlitos]

I found some cached pages of that board (thsmb.com) on the internet wayback machine. Lots of mature adult discussion, but no UFO tales to be found.

[Psiload]

I found some cached pages of that board (thsmb.com) on the internet wayback machine. Lots of mature adult discussion, but no UFO tales to be found.

You have to go waaaaaaay back... back to when the interwebs was taking it's first baby steps, in order to find the King discussing his big WPI plans and his UFO fetish. We're talking circa 1997, 98, 99. I doubt anything still exists online of that vintage.

I actually had a cd cache of the thsmb message board archives going back that far in my possession at one time... but that was ten years and hundreds of miles away ago. I'm sure it's long since been swallowed up by the sands of time.

No great loss for mankind, but they were worth a chuckle or two.

[bruto]

I see part of the King's problem. That geocities page mentions "passing outfliers." Wrong direction.

[Correa Neto]

You know, KotA, there comes a time in a man's life where the fantasies of the youth become useless and also a burden.

I understand from those links they probably were of great help at certain difficult periods in your life. But now, maybe its time for you to move on.
Stand up as a brave human and face the real without, unveiled from fantasies but holding fascinating challenges and mysteries which are kept hidden by false beliefs.
Blow away the fog of ignorance. Are you up to this challenge?

[King of the Americas]

How do you feel about the no-show aliens gods whateverthehelltheyare?

I knew that wasn't going to happen after Howard refused to help...

'They' will show up, when the world, or at least most of it, is watching.

[King of the Americas]

You know, if it makes you feel any better, Howard Stern probably doesn't even remember you...

It wouldn't surprise, bother, or make me feel better, either way.

He became the Court Jester of all Media, to me, now and forever, that day.

Why I focused so much time and energy on garnering his attention ponders me still today.

"Private Parts" gave me the wrong impression of him. His ex-wife probably feels the same way.

[King of the Americas]

Hey... we tried to warn you. We spent a good year trying to talk sense into you as I recall it.

Try to tell any 20-something NOT to pursue their dream and let me know how that works out...

[King of the Americas]

You have to go waaaaaaay back... back to when the interwebs was taking it's first baby steps, in order to find the King discussing his big WPI plans and his UFO fetish. We're talking circa 1997, 98, 99. I doubt anything still exists online of that vintage.

I actually had a cd cache of the thsmb message board archives going back that far in my possession at one time... but that was ten years and hundreds of miles away ago. I'm sure it's long since been swallowed up by the sands of time.

No great loss for mankind, but they were worth a chuckle or two.

I have the disk...found it in the back of a CD-ROM book. It only goes back to February 2001.

I haven't found the U.F.O. tale, and there's no search function. So, it is a day by day search that might yield squat. AND there's only so much "Jocko" I can re-take.

Some things should be swallowed by time and forgotten. But they DID lead me here, so I see it as a net gain. AND they were GREAT for poo and chuckles, no doubt about that.

Remember "Jim Anchower"?

[King of the Americas]

I see part of the King's problem. That geocities page mentions "passing outfliers." Wrong direction.

You have no idea how paralyzed my hands still were then...

I'm surprised it doesn't look more like Igmhdst vjjho,shtr stj.

[King of the Americas]

You know, KotA, there comes a time in a man's life where the fantasies of the youth become useless and also a burden.

I understand from those links they probably were of great help at certain difficult periods in your life. But now, maybe its time for you to move on.
Stand up as a brave human and face the real without, unveiled from fantasies but holding fascinating challenges and mysteries which are kept hidden by false beliefs.
Blow away the fog of ignorance. Are you up to this challenge?

I've been to the frontier, and seen wonders you know nothing of.

You are a child in knowledge, and make fun of someone trying to enlighten you to a truth you know not of...

The only ignorance here is yours.

[Yeah_Right]

Try to tell any 20-something NOT to pursue their dream fantasy and let me know how that works out...


Fixed that for you.

[Yeah_Right]

I've been to the frontier, and seen wonders you know nothing of.

You are a child in knowledge, and make fun of someone trying to enlighten you to a truth you know not of...

The only ignorance here is yours.


Sounds like a line from Star Trek, you know that fictional show.

[tsig]

What can I say, my time is much more valuable these days.

How much can I buy you for? $500/day + expenses?

[Stray Cat]

How much can I buy you for? $500/day + expenses?
As long as you don't need any granite carving.

[tsig]

I've been to the frontier, and seen wonders you know nothing of.

You are a child in knowledge, and make fun of someone trying to enlighten you to a truth you know not of...

The only ignorance here is yours.

So the truth is there's lost rock working technology?

Others occupied the Earth and have ascended?

Others are in space waiting for us to look up?

[tsig]

You have no idea how paralyzed my hands still were then...

I'm surprised it doesn't look more like Igmhdst vjjho,shtr stj.

Must have made it hard to work stone.

[tsig]

Sounds like a line from Star Trek, you know that fictional show.


We know the phasers could cut stone, Hum....

[Sean84]

How much can I buy you for? $500/day + expenses?

Man, you really overbid on that one.

There's nothing magical about my ability to look up but I'd do it for six bits and a sandwich.

[RoboTimbo]

I knew that wasn't going to happen after Howard refused to help...

'They' will show up, when the world, or at least most of it, is watching.

So it was Howard's skepticism of your endeavor that kept the aliens from descending?

[Stray Cat]

We know the phasers could cut stone, Hum....

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg117/ThePsychoClown/Phaser.jpg

[King of the Americas]

Must have made it hard to work stone.

They're better now, my right operates at 70%, and my left is a good 85%. Either can hold a chisel and swing a 3 lb hammer. And depending on the angle of attack, I use both well.

I've only worked stone at two points in my life, in high school I used a forged steel chisel to split several hundred concrete patio stones. They split easy with a simple score line. It took like a dozen hits to make a good split, give or take. And in the past year or so, I've been lettering a piece of granite with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped drumel tools.

I'd say the first work I did was rough, hapless, and mistakes were invisible. The work I do now, is fine lettering on some of the hardest stone you can find, and mistakes have to be polished out, least it look like garbage, and be more prone to weathering.

Oh, and I've carved several figures out of white marble with a drumel tool.

[King of the Americas]

How much can I buy you for? $500/day + expenses?

Hummm...

Wait. I'm no whore.

You tell me what work needs to be done, and I'll shoot you a bid.

[bruto]

Concrete ain't stone.

[Correa Neto]

I've been to the frontier, and seen wonders you know nothing of.

You are a child in knowledge, and make fun of someone trying to enlighten you to a truth you know not of...

The only ignorance here is yours.
How arrogant!
What if I am the harbinger of truth and you the child stumbling in the dark after failing the test?
How can you know what wonders I have seen or not, what I learned or not?
Oh yes, you claimed to be the truth...

From that post of yours, its clear you are not ready and/or willing to leave the fantasies of your youth. It will be painful to realize the ammount of time and effort you wasted for nothing. Maybe you already do but find it all too horrific to accept.
The sooner you let it go, the better. The longer you stick to it, the more you will have to mourn. Days, months, years and decades will pass, UFOs will not land, Atlantis will not be found, 2012 will not bring the events antecipated by the doomsday mongers, no reliable evidence of paranormal events will appear, no bigfoot will be found...
One day you'll find the time is gone, you are still in square one and the world looks pretty much like what skeptics were saying all the time...

[GeeMack]

I've only worked stone at two points in my life, in high school I used a forged steel chisel to split several hundred concrete patio stones. They split easy with a simple score line. It took like a dozen hits to make a good split, give or take.


Then you were doing it wrong. Consequently you have no credibility as a knowledgeable stone worker. Your arguments from incredulity and ignorance added to your false claim of understanding the relevant stone-working techniques amount to a complete failure to support your position.

[Correa Neto]

What about
"Set phasers to stone!"

[Stray Cat]

What about
"Set phasers to stone!"
It was the Witch in Narnia that set things to stone wasn't it?

[I Ratant]

Direct viewing of Medusa did it first.

[King of the Americas]

...

...One day you'll find the time is gone, you are still in square one and the world looks pretty much like what skeptics were saying all the time...

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

[King of the Americas]

Concrete ain't stone.

Agreed.

Molded limestone, perhaps?

Call it what you like, it wasn't like cutting butter.

[Yeah_Right]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.


Ummm, no, they don't exist, sorry.

[GeeMack]

Agreed.

Molded limestone, perhaps?

Call it what you like, it wasn't like cutting butter.


Your qualifications to understand stone working have been challenged, and you have been unable to demonstrate that you have any such qualifications. In fact, you have demonstrated that your claim to being qualified has no foundation and is simply false. Any continued claim to possess any such qualifications will be a lie.

[King of the Americas]

Ummm, no, they don't exist, sorry.

:)

I find your position laughably ignorant.

[John Jones]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.


Yeah. Like that's gonna happen. More likely, you'll commit suicide by mods first.

[John Jones]

:)

I find your position laughably ignorant.


Stop. Now. Please.

[carlitos]

I have the disk...found it in the back of a CD-ROM book. It only goes back to February 2001.

On a Mac:
Insert disc. Use spotlight and type "craft" or "star" or "UFO" or "Valley" or "alien" or "I saw" or "star like" or "night sky"

On a PC:
Insert disc. Use windows explorer and type "craft" or "star" or "UFO" or "Valley" or "alien" or "I saw" or "star like" or "night sky"

[tsig]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

As will we all. The truth doesn't need force to be accepted.

[Yeah_Right]

:)

I find your position laughably ignorant.

I find your position laughable.

[King of the Americas]

I find your position laughable.

Ignorance is bliss...

[Yeah_Right]

Ignorance is bliss...

I guess you must have a great deal of bliss in that case.

[Psiload]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

I hate to do this, but you're really asking for it.

King, upon your head, I place the Phil Klass curse...

No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

[bruto]

Must have made it hard to work stone.In fairness to KoA, it appears from his website that he was paralyzed in a very serious accident, and if since then his hands have recovered enough to work granite, then that's certainly a good thing.

[Yeah_Right]

I hate to do this, but you're really asking for it.

King, upon your head, I place the Phil Klass curse...

No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

Phil Klass, he was such a wise man.

[I Am He]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.
Who are 'They' KotA? You never told anyone who 'They' are, and if you say you don't know you sure as hell don't know what you are talking about and that must mean you are the ignorant one.



I Am He

[King of the Americas]

...that must mean you are the ignorant one.



I Am He

What exactly have I 'ignored'...?

[dafydd]

What exactly have I 'ignored'...?

Reality.

[King of the Americas]

On a Mac:
Insert disc. Use spotlight and type "craft" or "star" or "UFO" or "Valley" or "alien" or "I saw" or "star like" or "night sky"

On a PC:
Insert disc. Use windows explorer and type "craft" or "star" or "UFO" or "Valley" or "alien" or "I saw" or "star like" or "night sky"

That isn't the way the 'files' were saved. Each 'day' is saved, the contents or text of which are unrecognized.

[aggle-rithm]

Sounds like a line from Star Trek, you know that fictional show.

Hmmm...

Star...Trek, is it? Sounds vaguely familiar.

And it's a fictional show, you say?

;)

[aggle-rithm]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

Again, who are 'they'?

If you can't even begin to define them, then how do you know 'they' exist?

[King of the Americas]

Again, who are 'they'?

If you can't even begin to define them, then how do you know 'they' exist?

'They' are heavenly agents, those that exist 'up there', known throughout the ages as "god(s)".

That is as specific as I can be.

[King of the Americas]

Reality.

How so?

[Psiload]

Again, who are 'they'?

If you can't even begin to define them, then how do you know 'they' exist?

Never mind who 'they' are, just accept the fact that your refusal to believe in 'they' makes you a hollow person whose very existence is bleak and meaningless. Okay?

[Psiload]

'They' are heavenly agents, those that exist 'up there', known throughout the ages as "god(s)".

That is as specific as I can be.

"Up there"?

Canada?

[King of the Americas]

"Up there"?

Canada?

Oh Ya, Sure...

[Correa Neto]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

KotA, we skeptics are very easy to convince. All it takes is reliable evidence. No, the stuff presented by Rramjet is very far from being reliable. Note that if UFO lore were real, these pieces of evidence would be available. Got some?

No.

How many years since the UFO phenomena started? 1947 would be a good starting point? Wanna go back in time? Foo fighters (no, not the band), rocket and airship scares? Doesn't matter, the result is always the same, no reliable evidence.

So, the odds are you will die and not a single piece of reliable evidence will show up to vindicate you. The sooner you realize how much time and effort you are wasting, the better...

[Correa Neto]

"Up there"?

Canada?

Why not Alaska?

OK. Palin. Got that.

But what about Greenland?

OK, now I got it- North Pole. Santa Claus is god. Small kids join every year in a moment upwards awaiting for his return.

[aggle-rithm]

'They' are heavenly agents, those that exist 'up there', known throughout the ages as "god(s)".

That is as specific as I can be.

I'll just refer to them as "unecessary entities", since all evidence for their existence can easily be explained by known phenomena.

[carlitos]

But what about Greenland?
.
Eric the Red had already sailed to Greenland by the time our Puma Punku dudes were making temples. No assistance from gods required. Later, Leif Erickson made it even farther, then was chosen to convert the Greenlanders to Christianity. No heavenly agents involved, just a politically-savvy king solidifying his base.

[aggle-rithm]

Eric the Red had already sailed to Greenland by the time our Puma Punku dudes were making temples. No assistance from gods required. Later, Leif Erickson made it even farther, then was chosen to convert the Greenlanders to Christianity. No heavenly agents involved, just a politically-savvy king solidifying his base.

There are many things that people do TODAY, right in front of our eyes, that the average person can't figure out how it was done. Why is it so hard for some people to believe that ancient engineers (who have the same brains that today's engineers have) found solutions that aren't obvious to the average person today?

Engineers are wicked clever. If you've ever looked at software code written by a mechanical or structural engineer...wow. Highly impractical, but ingenious as all get-out.

This isn't all from training. It takes a special kind of brain to do what they do. And that kind of brain has been around for thousands of years.

[Correa Neto]

So, we're left with North Pole and Santa Claus, right?

WRONG! Why North should be on top?

I live in the Southern Hemisphere. Damn you all Northern Hemisphere people and your imperialistic prejudices regarding orientation. South should be on top.

The gods are at the SOUTH POLE. Penguins are gods.

[Psiload]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.


And if they do return, what will they have to offer? Is the mere novelty of the confirmation of their existence going to improve the human condition somehow?

It seems that all they've had to offer in the past is mad rock scratching and stacking skillz... that, and an amazing ability to tidy up after themselves.

What else? Stomping flat our crops, probing our butts, killing our cattle, zippy lights in the sky shows... sorry, but none of this seems particularly useful or constructive. Truth be told... 'they' seem pretty much useless.

Is there anything, beyond the entertainment value of the spectacle of their return, that we should be looking forward to when 'they' return?

[Hellbound]

Is there anything, beyond the entertainment value of the spectacle of their return, that we should be looking forward to when 'they' return?

I hear god ribs is good eatin'.

[Correa Neto]

What if they find human ribs tasty?

[aggle-rithm]

What if they find human ribs tasty?

Don't worry. The recipe is a closely-guarded secret.

[Correa Neto]

What do YOU think god did to Adam's rib?

You buy the official Bible version?

[carlitos]

MA-ZlZm2ye0

[Cuddles]

OR

One day skeptics will cease to exist, having seen first hand what I have, utterly forced join the world in accepting the truth, that 'they' exist.

Dude, you saw a couple of lights in the sky, once. No rational person will ever be convinced of your fantasy by seeing that first hand. Hell, most of us have already seen something along those lines, we just don't obsess about it because seeing lights in the sky really isn't unusual or unexpected.

[Yeah_Right]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=6841290#post6841290)
'They' are heavenly agents, those that exist 'up there', known throughout the ages as "god(s)".

That is as specific as I can be.



Did I say he watched too many episodes of Stargate Atlantis? I should throw in too many Erich Von Daniken books.

[aggle-rithm]

They're....not coming, are they?

*sniff*

[bruto]

Don't worry. The recipe is a closely-guarded secret.The secret's in the sauce.

[Hellbound]

They're....not coming, are they?

*sniff*

No.

Because they don't like you. It's all your fault, aggle-rithm.

[aggle-rithm]

It's all your fault, aggle-rithm.

Please stop impersonating my wife. It gives me the creeps.

[Hellbound]

please stop impersonating my wife. It gives me the creeps.

rofl

[aggle-rithm]

All right, let me see if I get KoA's line of reasoning straight:

1. There are things in this world that we don't understand. Or, more accurately, that KoA doesn't understand.
2. In ancient times, people dealt with things they didn't understand by attributing them to gods.

Conclusion: Things we don't understand are attributable to heavenly beings that we could call 'gods'.

We don't know what they are, what they look like, what they want, what they do, why they do it, and we have absolutely no evidence that they exist. But they do.

Do I have it right?

[EHocking]

All right, let me see if I get KoA's line of reasoning straight:

1. There are things in this world that we don't understand. Or, more accurately, that KoA doesn't understand.
2. In ancient times, people dealt with things they didn't understand by attributing them to gods.

Conclusion: Things we don't understand are attributable to heavenly beings that we could call 'gods'.

We don't know what they are, what they look like, what they want, what they do, why they do it, and we have absolutely no evidence that they exist. But they do.

Do I have it right?You forgot that KotA has proof - he just can't tell us about it.

[GeeMack]

You forgot that KotA has proof - he just can't tell us about it.


And he forgot, "All you scoffing non-believers, you'll all be sorry!"

[aggle-rithm]

You forgot that KotA has proof - he just can't tell us about it.

Oh, right...

I forgot there always has to be a little mystery, to keep the woo alive.

[King of the Americas]

I think this video is relevant to this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/04/uncontacted-amazon-tribe-video_n_818621.html

I can help but wonder how these tribesmen describe the loud white bird circling their village to those who haven't seen it...

Interestingly, the leading researcher wants to allow the tribesmen decide for themselves to make contact.

I've argued the same for our heavenly watchers. They'll descend, when we decide, as a global community, that we want to make contact.

---

CONVERSATION WITHIN THE TRIBE:

Witness: "So, did anyone else see that loud white bird today?"

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why are YOU the only one who ever sees this L.W.B. Do you have any PROOF that you saw this L.W.B., did it drop any feathers, did you find where it nested?"

Witness: "No, but Umfu saw it too, an he drew this picture."

Skeptic Tribesman: "That doesn't look like any bird I've ever seen. Were you guys drinking the spit beer again?"

Witness"No. But Umfu and I think the L.W.B. is piloted by some sort of advanced intelligence, since it circled us several times. As it flew away, we waved, and it circled back, and waved its wings back at us."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Bwaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa! You CAN'T be serious! An advanced intelligence...? Do you have any evidence whatsoever?"

Witness"No."

Skeptic Trivesman: "Then shut up, you are just telling stories, again. Your anecdotes are useless."

Witness: "But you don't understand, this could be our chance to make contact with a superior race, and join a larger world beyond this little patch of jungle."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why don't you bring back some proof, then we'll talk."

Witness: ...shrugs and walks away mumbling ... "Ignorant skeptic..."

[RoboTimbo]

I think this video is relevant to this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/04/uncontacted-amazon-tribe-video_n_818621.html

I can help but wonder how these tribesmen describe the loud white bird circling their village to those who haven't seen it...

Interestingly, the leading researcher wants to allow the tribesmen decide for themselves to make contact.

I've argued the same for our heavenly watchers. They'll descend, when we decide, as a global community, that we want to make contact.

---

CONVERSATION WITHIN THE TRIBE:

Witness: "So, did anyone else see that loud white bird today?"

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why are YOU the only one who ever sees this L.W.B. Do you have any PROOF that you saw this L.W.B., did it drop any feathers, did you find where it nested?"

Witness: "No, but Umfu saw it too, an he drew this picture."

Skeptic Tribesman: "That doesn't look like any bird I've ever seen. Were you guys drinking the spit beer again?"

Witness"No. But Umfu and I think the L.W.B. is piloted by some sort of advanced intelligence, since it circled us several times. As it flew away, we waved, and it circled back, and waved its wings back at us."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Bwaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa! You CAN'T be serious! An advanced intelligence...? Do you have any evidence whatsoever?"

Witness"No."

Skeptic Trivesman: "Then shut up, you are just telling stories, again. Your anecdotes are useless."

Witness: "But you don't understand, this could be our chance to make contact with a superior race, and join a larger world beyond this little patch of jungle."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why don't you bring back some proof, then we'll talk."

Witness: ...shrugs and walks away mumbling ... "Ignorant skeptic..."

Lucky for us that they speak English.

[King of the Americas]

Lucky for us that they speak English.

The conversation was a mockery of skepticism here.

No one has made actual contact with this tribe, yet.

Funny how sarcasm and ignorance go hand in hand, here.

[carlitos]

Whoosh.

ETA - speaking of which, the gods that taught the Inca to carve sandstone and stuff - why didn't they bother teaching those cats a written language?

[RoboTimbo]

The conversation was a mockery of skepticism here.

No one has made actual contact with this tribe, yet.

Funny how sarcasm and ignorance go hand in hand, here.

Kind of like ebony and ivory. I'll be the sarcasm part. What part are you playing?

Don't try to hold my hand.

[King of the Americas]

Whoosh.

I know MY point went right over your head, but I'm glad you at least heard it go by...

Maybe its sound will be enough to cause you to look up, at least.

[carlitos]

King, one of the many problems you have failed to address is that if your gods return, how we can communicate with them. When this bilateral communication issue was pointed out to you, you replied that dogs can learn commands. Unless your dog talks back to you in detail, you missed the point. In other words, whoosh.

[King of the Americas]

... In other words, whoosh.

Do you see ANY parallels between the discussion we are having, and the un-contacted tribe, and how they would go about confirming 'we' exist among their tribe, and then how we'd decide that they wanted to make contact with us...?

No?

WHOOOOOOSH.

[carlitos]

OK King. Keep on keepin' on. Happy weekend.

[King of the Americas]

OK King. Keep on keepin' on. Happy weekend.

^That^ is known as a non-response, response.

[King of the Americas]

Kind of like ebony and ivory. I'll be the sarcasm part. What part are you playing?

Don't try to hold my hand.

I'll play the skeptic.

"No one has EVER produced a single shred of evidence of these L.W.B.'s, and you want the whole tribe to go outside and look up, at some designated time???

What a colossal waste of hunting and gather resources.

You are wasting everyone's time with your anecdotes."

---

Your turn.

[Psiload]

I've argued the same for our heavenly watchers. They'll descend, when we decide, as a global community, that we want to make contact.

***snip***

Here's a question... how blind are "our heavenly watchers" if they've missed the signals we've been sending out for around about the last fifty years?

Rockets, probes, landers, rovers, space telescopes, radio, microwave, laser, etc... etc... etc...

How dense are "the watchers"? Why hasn't it dawned on them... "Gee, maybe these Earthlings are looking for something?"

How the Hell is a bunch of people gazing skyward at the next Olympic games a more clear indication of our desire to make contact than THE ENTIRE SPACE EXPLORATION PROGRAM OF THE LAST HALF A CENTURY!?

What? Do "they" think we're sending up rockets to look for a set of lost car keys or a pet ferret that wandered off?

How about if we write COME OUT AND PLAY WITH US. PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP on the dark side of the moon in giant flashing letters? You think that might get it through their thick skulls?

[carlitos]

^That^ is known as a non-response, response.


...speaking of which, the gods that taught the Inca to carve sandstone and stuff - why didn't they bother teaching those cats a written language?

?...?

:i:

Dude, I understand the point you are making about a tribe HERE ON EARTH that hasn't made contact with most of civilization HERE ON EARTH and the moral / ethical / logistical dilemma faced by all parties involved, as to how everyone makes contact or not. I get the theoretical parallels you are trying to draw - gee, if the tribe held a track meet, and they all looked up, you would assume that they want to be contacted?

All of these things can and will be resolved without the Laws of Physics being repealed. I get your point. Unknown tribe needs to figure out how to signal Brazilian gov't that they want contact. I understand.

Seriously, enjoy your weekend. If you find evidence for gods in the heavens, post it. Relax.

[King of the Americas]

Here's a question... how blind are "our heavenly watchers" if they've missed the signals we've been sending out for around about the last fifty years.

...

Because the part can't speak for the whole...

ONE or even TWO tribesmen aren't going to get the plane to land.

However, if EVERYONE in the tribe showed up, and tried to wave the plane down, maybe then we'd think they ALL wanted us to make contact with them.

[RoboTimbo]

I'll play the skeptic.

"No one has EVER produced a single shred of evidence of these L.W.B.'s, and you want the whole tribe to go outside and look up, at some designated time???

What a colossal waste of hunting and gather resources.

You are wasting everyone's time with your anecdotes."

---

Your turn.

So I get to play the creduloid?

"But I heard my Aunt Erma's postman's rock carver's niece's head shrinker said that his dog bigfoot was barking one night and he went and looked outside and the bigfoot was looking up! It must be aliens! gods!"

[Sean84]

Because the part can't speak for the whole...

ONE or even TWO tribesmen aren't going to get the plane to land.

However, if EVERYONE in the tribe showed up, and tried to wave the plane down, maybe then we'd think they ALL wanted us to make contact with them.

Now we're supposed to wave while we look up?

What kind of fancy-pants aliens are these? Next thing you'll probably tell me is I have to give them half my sandwich. Not gonna happen. That's MY sandwich. Aliens be damned.

[Psiload]

Because the part can't speak for the whole...

ONE or even TWO tribesmen aren't going to get the plane to land.

However, if EVERYONE in the tribe showed up, and tried to wave the plane down, maybe then we'd think they ALL wanted us to make contact with them.

What does the entirety of our space exploration programs represent if not a massive concerted effort by humankind to make contact?

[bruto]

King, I think before you stretch your analogy too far, you should look a little further into what is meant by an "uncontacted" tribe. I believe you vastly understimate their reticence, and vastly overestimate their naiveté.

This one sentence from the Huffington article should ring a bell:

"Illegal loggers have entered the Peru side, forcing the Indians into Brazil"

THEY KNOW THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE! If they didn't, they would not have felt the need to move!

Now, if your internet connection is working better than mine tonight (mine stalled and I couldn't get the whole video to play) take a good look at the very first shot in the picture. Do you notice anything about the implements they're using?

THAT'S RIGHT, ONE OF THEM IS HOLDING A MACHETE! Gee, I wonder if they know what steel is?

If these folks were, indeed, the analogue of your gods from space, then they would provide you with an ample answer to your project. They are uncontacted by choice. If they were not, there would be no debate now on the subject. They shun us and flee us.

[King of the Americas]

What does the entirety of our space exploration programs represent if not a massive concerted effort by humankind to make contact?

The U.S., Russia, China, and a few other nations, but none of these efforts represent in any way Mankind, the Global community, or even most people.

In fact, it could be argued that NASA represents only NASA, and NOT the wishes, desires, or need for people to make contact with 'them'.

One might even argue that these entities have been indeed hiding and or preventing 'them' from making contact with Mankind.

[Stray Cat]

The U.S., Russia, China, and a few other nations, but none of these efforts represent in any way Mankind, the Global community, or even most people.
I would suggest the people who attend the Olympics opening ceremony does not represent most people, but only a fraction of a fraction of some people.

[King of the Americas]

...

THAT'S RIGHT, ONE OF THEM IS HOLDING A MACHETE! Gee, I wonder if they know what steel is?

...

I see no machete.

I suppose I could demand proof of metal implement, and then claim that you simply misidentified the item.

Then again, ancient people developed smelting methods, so maybe the guy holding what you deem a machete is really just an old tool passed down to him from the Puma Punku folks...

ETA:

These pictures: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/31/brazilian-indians-threate_n_816346.html#233132

..SEEM to show someone small/young holding a machete, and even a small white pot.

Does this mean they HAVE made contact with modern men, or is there simply a chance they found these items, without making actual contact?

[King of the Americas]

I would suggest the people who attend the Olympics opening ceremony does not represent most people, but only a fraction of a fraction of some people.

Agreed, but I count those watching at home and or on TV.

[tsig]

No.

Because they don't like you. It's all your fault, aggle-rithm.

Aggle is the new Lisa?:confused:

[tsig]

I think this video is relevant to this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/04/uncontacted-amazon-tribe-video_n_818621.html

I can help but wonder how these tribesmen describe the loud white bird circling their village to those who haven't seen it...

Interestingly, the leading researcher wants to allow the tribesmen decide for themselves to make contact.

I've argued the same for our heavenly watchers. They'll descend, when we decide, as a global community, that we want to make contact.

---

CONVERSATION WITHIN THE TRIBE:

Witness: "So, did anyone else see that loud white bird today?"

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why are YOU the only one who ever sees this L.W.B. Do you have any PROOF that you saw this L.W.B., did it drop any feathers, did you find where it nested?"

Witness: "No, but Umfu saw it too, an he drew this picture."

Skeptic Tribesman: "That doesn't look like any bird I've ever seen. Were you guys drinking the spit beer again?"

Witness"No. But Umfu and I think the L.W.B. is piloted by some sort of advanced intelligence, since it circled us several times. As it flew away, we waved, and it circled back, and waved its wings back at us."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Bwaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa! You CAN'T be serious! An advanced intelligence...? Do you have any evidence whatsoever?"

Witness"No."

Skeptic Trivesman: "Then shut up, you are just telling stories, again. Your anecdotes are useless."

Witness: "But you don't understand, this could be our chance to make contact with a superior race, and join a larger world beyond this little patch of jungle."

Skeptic Tribesman: "Why don't you bring back some proof, then we'll talk."

Witness: ...shrugs and walks away mumbling ... "Ignorant skeptic..." Takes boomerang and brings down the next plane, brings parts to skeptics.

ftfy

[King of the Americas]

ftfy

Well, at least you are funny.

[Stray Cat]

Agreed, but I count those watching at home and or on TV.
So the "Ones in the sky" get the latest viewing figures before making an appearance?

Maybe they missed 9/11?

I suppose not important enough for them while the world's eyes watched.

[King of the Americas]

So the "Ones in the sky" get the latest viewing figures before making an appearance?

Maybe they missed 9/11?

I suppose not important enough for them while the world's eyes watched.

They'll show up, I think, when most of the world looks for and expects them to show up...

[Sean84]

They'll show up, I think, when most of the world looks for and expects them to show up...

...for no apparent reason.

[King of the Americas]

...for no apparent reason.

Other than to make contact, that is.

[Sean84]

Other than to make contact, that is.

In the immortal words of Albert Einstein, "Whoosh."

[bruto]

I see no machete.

I suppose I could demand proof of metal implement, and then claim that you simply misidentified the item.

Then again, ancient people developed smelting methods, so maybe the guy holding what you deem a machete is really just an old tool passed down to him from the Puma Punku folks...

ETA:

These pictures: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/31/brazilian-indians-threate_n_816346.html#233132

..SEEM to show someone small/young holding a machete, and even a small white pot.

Does this mean they HAVE made contact with modern men, or is there simply a chance they found these items, without making actual contact?

Apologies for giving you the wrong lead. I forgot where I had been. When the video stopped loading, I went to the stills, and the one you link above is the one I meant. It's pretty clear that it's a machete and what I'm guessing is a small enamel pot.

For those wishing a quick look, here it is nice and big (please don't violate forum rules by turning this into a hot link):http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/16666/slide_16666_233132_huge.jpg?1296874082

I believe what is meant by "uncontacted" here is that the tribe as a whole shuns contact and that there has been no effort by outside governments, etc. to contact them either. It does not mean they're undiscovered, and I don't think it means that some individuals have not interacted with persons outside the tribe, perhaps with other indigenous peoples, at some point. Of course it does remain possible that these items were found, but even so, they know what they are, and must be aware that other people exist, so my point still stands, that their isolation is voluntary.

Of course one reason they remain uncontacted is that it appears the Peruvian government finds it easier to deny their existence. If they don't officially exist, then they and their lands need not be protected. For a long time, this probably worked to their advantage, as long as there was enough land for them to disappear into. It only becomes critical as resources dwindle and living space diminishes.

[King of the Americas]

So, the question is "How would this tribe indicate that they WANTED to make contact with the L.W.B.'s pilots?"

&

"Besides showing the L.W.B. to the other tribesmen directly, what proof could they possibly offer, that such a thing even exists?"

[bruto]

So, the question is "How would this tribe indicate that they WANTED to make contact with the L.W.B.'s pilots?"

&

"Besides showing the L.W.B. to the other tribesmen directly, what proof could they possibly offer, that such a thing even exists?"

Of course we don't know what they think the planes are, or what they are doing, or whether individual adventurers have gone out and returned with more detailed knowledge. But the pictures show a fair number of people looking at the plane, so we can surmise that they won't have too much trouble convincing others. Remember too that airplanes are very audible. It's pretty certain that everyone there has heard them before, and that everyone in the neighborhood when those pictures were taken heard the plane, and saw it if they cared to. Obviously from the pictures they were not afraid to look.

I suppose that if they wanted contact specifically with the pilots flying overhead, they might wave, bow, smile, make other welcoming gestures, perhaps hold up bowls of food. It's a mildly interesting question, but not a real stumper of a problem. Most people can figure out how to make a gesture that means, if not "welcome," at least "let's interact."

If they wanted contact in general, with outsiders not specifically those they see flying over, they could probably just walk out until they find someone, or, if accounts are accurate, simply not flee deeper into the woods when they see or hear the loggers coming.

[carlitos]

Whoosh.

ETA - speaking of which, the gods that taught the Inca to carve sandstone and stuff - why didn't they bother teaching those cats a written language?


nada, zilch, zippo, silencio***.....



^That^ is known as a non-response, response.


...speaking of which, the gods that taught the Inca to carve sandstone and stuff - why didn't they bother teaching those cats a written language?

?...?

:i:



***My man didn't say that, I'm paraphrasing his non-response this way.

No comments? OK. Happy weekend.

[Elizabeth I]

Agreed, but I count those watching at home and or on TV.

Wait, how are we supposed to be inside watching TV and outside looking up at the same time?

[EHocking]

I think this video is relevant to this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/04/uncontacted-amazon-tribe-video_n_818621.html

I can help but wonder how these tribesmen describe the loud white bird circling their village to those who haven't seen it...

Interestingly, the leading researcher wants to allow the tribesmen decide for themselves to make contact.

I've argued the same for our heavenly watchers. They'll descend, when we decide, as a global community, that we want to make contact....The amusing thing about your example is that it demonstrates that ignorance of the facts leads to a erroneous conclusion.

If you are implying that these tribespeople thought this was a sighting of gods - it's obvious that they are wrong. It was merely a plane.

Your conclusion that your UFO sighting is evidence of gods above us is equally erroneous.

[King of the Americas]

Of course we don't know what they think the planes are, or what they are doing, or whether individual adventurers have gone out and returned with more detailed knowledge. But the pictures show a fair number of people looking at the plane, so we can surmise that they won't have too much trouble convincing others. Remember too that airplanes are very audible. It's pretty certain that everyone there has heard them before, and that everyone in the neighborhood when those pictures were taken heard the plane, and saw it if they cared to. Obviously from the pictures they were not afraid to look.

I suppose that if they wanted contact specifically with the pilots flying overhead, they might wave, bow, smile, make other welcoming gestures, perhaps hold up bowls of food. It's a mildly interesting question, but not a real stumper of a problem. Most people can figure out how to make a gesture that means, if not "welcome," at least "let's interact."

If they wanted contact in general, with outsiders not specifically those they see flying over, they could probably just walk out until they find someone, or, if accounts are accurate, simply not flee deeper into the woods when they see or hear the loggers coming.

First, I don't know how many tribesmen there are there, nor do we know what they 'know' about the log eat monsters or the loud bird that flys over.

Then again, maybe they know exactly what and who we are, after talking to other tribes who have made contact. Maybe they are trying to hold on to what and who they are now and don't want to make contact.

My point is that there is a parallel to these tribesmen and their heavenly onlooker and us and ours.

[King of the Americas]

Wait, how are we supposed to be inside watching TV and outside looking up at the same time?

The cameras will do the looking up for you, dear.

[King of the Americas]

The amusing thing about your example is that it demonstrates that ignorance of the facts leads to a erroneous conclusion.

If you are implying that these tribespeople thought this was a sighting of gods - it's obvious that they are wrong. It was merely a plane.

Your conclusion that your UFO sighting is evidence of gods above us is equally erroneous.

In my faux tribal conversation, I never had them mention "gods", on purpose. What the tribesmen called it was an advanced technology, and an advanced race.

What we are seeing in our heavens isn't "God" either, just a more advanced race with better technology.

[GeeMack]

The cameras will do the looking up for you, dear.


Oh, so we don't have to actually look up. We just need to put cameras out there looking up. How many cameras do the aliens need to see to know we're looking?

[Correa Neto]

KotA's analogy with that tribe is deeply flawed when it comes down to his beliefs...

The airplane represents a culture, a civilization which has brought very few good things for the natives. Our needs, our greed and our germs caused and are still causing havoc on the indigenous civilizations from the Americas. Take that tribe, for example. It quite likely they had to move due to logging (I would also add illegal mining as another possible distress source) and the odds are that several diseases have been and will be transmitted to them by contact with those "skygods".

Still want the skydemons to descend, KotA?

[King of the Americas]

KotA's analogy with that tribe is deeply flawed when it comes down to his beliefs...

The airplane represents a culture, a civilization which has brought very few good things for the natives. Our needs, our greed and our germs caused and are still causing havoc on the indigenous civilizations from the Americas. Take that tribe, for example. It quite likely they had to move due to logging (I would also add illegal mining as another possible distress source) and the odds are that several diseases have been and will be transmitted to them by contact with those "skygods".

Still want the skydemons to descend, KotA?

Well, our skygods gave us religion, one of, if not the most derisive thing in our culture.

I'd say the damage has already been done.

[Correa Neto]

Lets assume these folks are around since the dawn of history.

Heck, enough time to understand us, right?

So, "they" should be aware of our space exploration programs and the desire many humans have to meet our neighbours, other sentient species.

Thus, why the f-word they need a bunch of people staring upwards to descend? Not to mention that who can be sure they will be looking towards the right place? Who can be sure "they" will notice these folks looking upwards. Who can be sure "they" would care?

[carlitos]

Derisive? I think you mean divisive?

[King of the Americas]

...

Thus, why the f-word they need a bunch of people staring upwards to descend? ...



Because governments that control space agencies have had a less than full disclosure attitude toward their existence.

The people of the world could bypass such lapses by speaking for themselves, proclaiming as one, that we want them to descend.

[King of the Americas]

Derisive? I think you mean divisive?

Indeed, I did mean "divisive".

Thank you for the correction.

[Correa Neto]

Well, our skygods gave us religion, one of, if not the most derisive thing in our culture.

I'd say the damage has already been done.

First of all, its nothing but a belief of yours. Myths saying a certain wisdom was given from the gods are not reliable evidence this wisdom was actually not the product of human activity. Actually we can even question the utility of many pieces of wisdom allegedly given or inspired by the gods. They resulted in wars, prejudice, oppression, etc.

Note that farmers drive machines with bright lights (some of which can fly) and give their cattle guidance, food, healt and other cool stuff. Cattle might be gratefull to their farmers, see them as gods and think nothing bad can be expected from them, right?

Heck,sometimes cattle even flock curiously around the farmers, eager to get some salt and lick their vehicles...

Thinking about some steak right now...

[carlitos]

Peru is proud of their space agency. You could use google translate on this page to learn more.

http://www.conida.gob.pe/

[bruto]

First, I don't know how many tribesmen there are there, nor do we know what they 'know' about the log eat monsters or the loud bird that flys over.

Then again, maybe they know exactly what and who we are, after talking to other tribes who have made contact. Maybe they are trying to hold on to what and who they are now and don't want to make contact.

My point is that there is a parallel to these tribesmen and their heavenly onlooker and us and ours.

There is one very big difference, which you seem to be unable to grasp. The people who fly over and the people who cut down trees are real. I think your idea that these people are so primitive that they think everything not them is magic is condescending. We don't know exactly what they think, but but they know enough to stay clear of encroachment, and to do it together.

Of course, you are also ignoring the one part of your analogy that could be true: The people from the sky and the people with the chain saws represent the tribe's almost certain destruction, as a culture and quite possibly as individuals. Whether they act from superstitious fear or historical experience, avoiding contact is their wisest choice. Perhaps that's the lesson you should see here.

[Correa Neto]

Because governments that control space agencies have had a less than full disclosure attitude toward their existence.

Evidence? I mean, reliable evidence, not the ramblings and ravings from UFOlogists.

The people of the world could bypass such lapses by speaking for themselves, proclaiming as one, that we want them to descend.

All it takes is to look at exobiology/astronomy research programs and/or a sweep through TV channels, to see how eager people are to meet aliens.

Remember also that every religious cult is an attempt to contact the "gods", right?

[King of the Americas]

...

...Whether they act from superstitious fear or historical experience, avoiding contact is their wisest choice. Perhaps that's the lesson you should see here.

MAYBE...

Maybe there's an individual there, 'trapped' by tribalism, with the greatest math mind the world has ever known, but we'll never know it because they lack a written language much less higher math functions.

An end of tribalism and primitive manners of living may be seen by some as a loss, but living longer, under better conditions out from under the elements may be seen as a gain.

'I' for one would LOVE to see mankind take its next step in evolutionary development.

[King of the Americas]

Evidence? I mean, reliable evidence, not the ramblings and ravings from UFOlogists.



All it takes is to look at exobiology/astronomy research programs and/or a sweep through TV channels, to see how eager people are to meet aliens.

Remember also that every religious cult is an attempt to contact the "gods", right?

Originally Posted by Giggywig
Illuminate me. Present the evidence world governments have presented regarding UFOs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...UFO-files.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...es.html?cat=37

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/22...files-released

---

The part can't speak for the whole. When we decide we want to make contact, they will.

IF this tribe DID believe the L.W.B. was "God", wouldn't it be dishonest of us to make contact AS "God"...? How might we descend from the heavens and tell them we AREN'T a deity at all?

[Correa Neto]

When we decide we want to make contact, they will.

Evidence?

Am I supposed to believe just because you claimed to be the truth?

IF this tribe DID believe the L.W.B. was "God", wouldn't it be dishonest of us to make contact AS "God"...? How might we descend from the heavens and tell them we AREN'T a deity at all?

How can the farmers make cattle understand they are no deities?

or

Would the farmers want to not be seen by their lambs as deities?

Well, as soon they start to feast on humans you'll see they are no gods.

[I Ratant]

Another thread that should be mercifully euthanized.

[Hellbound]

Another thread that should be mercifully euthanized.

It's euthanization would be merciful to readers, whatever the method.

[bruto]

MAYBE...

Maybe there's an individual there, 'trapped' by tribalism, with the greatest math mind the world has ever known, but we'll never know it because they lack a written language much less higher math functions.

An end of tribalism and primitive manners of living may be seen by some as a loss, but living longer, under better conditions out from under the elements may be seen as a gain.

'I' for one would LOVE to see mankind take its next step in evolutionary development.So how about a nice rousing chorus of "Don't know much about history?"

And you should get off your condescending, ethnocentric high horse for a moment, and remind yourself that whatever you think about tribalism and cultural progress, or the potential benefit of unleashing an imagined genius weighed against the nearly certain destruction of a culture and decimation of a population by disease, it does not even remotely resemble "evolutionary development." Those fellows with the spears and bows are just as evolved as we are, and they have as much right to live their way as anyone anywhere has and we're not their gods, whatever you might imagine they think when they see us fly over.

[Elizabeth I]

The cameras will do the looking up for you, dear.

How is that any different from the SETI array which has been pointed "out there" for how many years now with absolutely no results?

You are completely illogical. This part of the conversation started with a demand that we join you in a rather silly online petition to the organizing committee for the London Olympics, asking everybody to stop during the opening ceremony to stare skyward. The TV cameras won't point up unless the whoevers descend - they'll be busy interviewing Paris Hilton or Britanni Spears or the current tart of the month to get their opinions on the whole endeavor - so however many people are watching at home won't be out in their front yards gaping at the sky, so your initial message will be lost.

[Elizabeth I]

So how about a nice rousing chorus of "Don't know much about history?"

And you should get off your condescending, ethnocentric high horse for a moment, and remind yourself that whatever you think about tribalism and cultural progress, or the potential benefit of unleashing an imagined genius weighed against the nearly certain destruction of a culture and decimation of a population by disease, it does not even remotely resemble "evolutionary development." Those fellows with the spears and bows are just as evolved as we are, and they have as much right to live their way as anyone anywhere has and we're not their gods, whatever you might imagine they think when they see us fly over.

Nicely said.

[Correa Neto]

That post from KotA smells a lot like social darwinism...

[TubbaBlubba]

'I' for one would LOVE to see mankind take its next step in evolutionary development.

You mean the evolution into blobs specialized at sitting in front of the computer, eating fat and sugar?

[Sledge]

You mean the evolution into blobs specialized at sitting in front of the computer, eating fat and sugar?

Bow before me, I am your evolutionary master!

Could someone fetch me those Pringles?

[King of the Americas]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...

[GeeMack]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...


Since they don't arrive, that conjecture is nonsense.

[Stray Cat]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...
All it takes to expand your "notion of what is possible" is some links to proper archaeology of Puma Punku websites. :)

[I Ratant]

You mean the evolution into blobs specialized at sitting in front of the computer, eating fat and sugar?
.
I'm there, you mere homo sapiens you!
H. s. computernerdus is me.

[Sean84]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...

...for no apparent reason.

[bruto]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...When they actually arrive, and when your notion is knowledge, you'll have something. Until then you're just another crackpot mistaking the saucer in your eye for the pie in the sky.

[King of the Americas]

...for no apparent reason.

Progress from the primitive, is a great reason...

[King of the Americas]

All it takes to expand your "notion of what is possible" is some links to proper archaeology of Puma Punku websites. :)

Agreed.

What they did there DOES expand the notion of what is possible, so much so, that we don't know how they did it.

[GeeMack]

Agreed.

What they did there DOES expand the notion of what is possible, so much so, that we don't know how they did it.


Which lends some support to the notion that some people alive today are far stupider than some people who were alive then. Don't you agree? :D

[Marcus]

The whole "looking up" thing is just so silly.

First, the corn gods have to be hiding undetected in the solar system, which is silly enough all by itself.

Then they would have to have their super advanced telescopes trained on the appropriate spot (do you realize how large the Earth is at this level of resolution?)

It makes no sense to use visible light at all for monitoring when they could easily monitor our numerous transmissions, they being so close and all.

[King of the Americas]

It's called "a moment skyward"...

[RoboTimbo]

It's called "a moment skyward"...

Exactly how many of Earth's inhabitants need to be simultaneously looking skyward for the aliens gods demons Santa Claus Vogons Atlanteans whateveryoucallthems to notice and descend?

[Psiload]

It's called "a moment skyward"...

Would you say that this would be more of an emotional/spiritual sort of display, rather than some sort of actual technical invitation?

You know... like we're all joining hands and singing the "I'd like to buy the Gods a Coke, and keep it company."

[King of the Americas]

Would you say that this would be more of an emotional/spiritual sort of display, rather than some sort of actual technical invitation?

You know... like we're all joining hands and singing the "I'd like to buy the Gods a Coke, and keep it company."

More like a straight up invite, to come down and compete with us as equals...

"These are OUR Games, let's see what you guys are made of."

[King of the Americas]

Exactly how many of Earth's inhabitants need to be simultaneously looking skyward for the aliens gods demons Santa Claus Vogons Atlanteans whateveryoucallthems to notice and descend?

MOST of them...

[RoboTimbo]

MOST of them...

A simple majority of humanity? About 3.45B people then out of ~6.9B. Where did you come by the knowledge that that is the tipping point?

[bruto]

A simple majority of humanity? About 3.45B people then out of ~6.9B. Where did you come by the knowledge that that is the tipping point?It's the woo test catch. An impossible condition insures an automatic excuse for failure.

[King of the Americas]

A simple majority of humanity? About 3.45B people then out of ~6.9B. Where did you come by the knowledge that that is the tipping point?

Democracy...the very notion 'modern men' live by.

[Psiload]

More like a straight up invite, to come down and compete with us as equals...

"These are OUR Games, let's see what you guys are made of."

An invitation to compete? You can't be serious.

I thought this was an invitation to make contact. Now it's a spiritually-communicated double dog dare to try and beat us in a 50 yard dash?

Silly, sir. You're being silly. Nobody, let alone a majority of the world's population, is going to join you in this foolishness.

The actual, technical signs that we're open to contact are there loud and clear, and they've been there for quite some time. We've had big, old honking telescopes distributed all over the planet for decades. The message they send is definitive, sensible and perfectly adequate.

On the other hand, your 'Olympic skyward gawk double dog dare you to race me' idea is just pointless and childish. In a word... embarrassing.

Who could respect 'Gods" dimwitted and vain enough to rise to such a silly challenge? I mean... besides yourself, of course.

[RoboTimbo]

Democracy...the very notion 'modern men' live by.

Sorry, that makes no sense. What does a political system have to do with it? And why are you applying your own ethnocentric viewpoint about democracy to the entire world? And you didn't explain how you came by the knowledge that that is what would draw them down.

[Psiload]

Democracy...the very notion 'modern men' live by.

In that case.. the overwhelming majority of modern men to not live by the notion that you insist modern men live by.

Is that going to pose a problem?

[King of the Americas]

Sorry, that makes no sense. What does a political system have to do with it? And why are you applying your own ethnocentric viewpoint about democracy to the entire world? And you didn't explain how you came by the knowledge that that is what would draw them down.

When the majority decide upon something, that's what usually happens, regardless of minority desires...

Once MOST people know 'they' exist, the way we live our lives will change.

[RoboTimbo]

When the majority decide upon something, that's what usually happens, regardless of minority desires...

Once MOST people know 'they' exist, the way we live our lives will change.

Now you have two things to explain.

1. Why do you think that a political system would be the cause of them coming down?

2. Where did you come by the knowledge that a majority of the world's population looking skyward will cause your whatevertheyares to come down?

[Psiload]

When the majority decide upon something, that's what usually happens, regardless of minority desires...

***snip***

Wow... that's so not true.

[I Ratant]

Sorry, that makes no sense. What does a political system have to do with it? And why are you applying your own ethnocentric viewpoint about democracy to the entire world? And you didn't explain how you came by the knowledge that that is what would draw them down.
.
The profileration of education has engendered a protective shield that keeps
"them" out of human affairs now.

[carlitos]

Wow... that's so not true.

Sure it is. Ask President Gore.

[Yeah_Right]

KoTA's umm, ideas, let's call them that out of kindness, reminds me of this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl5MSemNMHI

[I Ratant]

KoTA's umm, ideas, let's call them that out of kindness, reminds me of this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl5MSemNMHI
.
tl, cw.
And silly.

[Correa Neto]

Soooo....

This means those Tiwanaku, Inca, Stonehenge, etc. people lived in democracies, since "the gods" were with them...

Yes, KotA, you ARE the truth...

[BTMO]

KoTA's umm, ideas, let's call them that out of kindness, reminds me of this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl5MSemNMHI

Holy ****, Batman!

People believe some ****.

[dafydd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu7vySQbgXI

[King of the Americas]

Soooo....

This means those Tiwanaku, Inca, Stonehenge, etc. people lived in democracies, since "the gods" were with them...

Yes, KotA, you ARE the truth...

No...

Back then, most people knew of and accepted their existence as a common place thing.

[GeeMack]

No...

Back then, most people knew of and accepted their existence as a common place thing.


This argument has no basis in truth.

[bruto]

No...

Back then, most people knew of and accepted their existence as a common place thing.How ironic that you'd want to invite back the ancient precolumbian gods at a sporting match. Perhaps instead of the Olympics, you should stage your moment skyward at the Super Bowl. Those gods really loved their ball games! I'm sure at least half the fans would be OK with the traditional post-game ritual of sacrificing the losers. Maybe they could vote on it.. 51 percent say "cut their hearts out with an obsidian* blade?" Who can argue with democracy? Expand our vision of the possible!

During halftime, we could sacrifice a few teenagers. The gods love that as well. You could get together with USEagle 13, go down to the mall and select some of those spoiled, unsupervised ones (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=198012). Show the little bastards who's boss.

* Chipped, so we don't have to wait till the gods show up with the advanced technology. It's nice to set the table before company arrives.

[King of the Americas]

How ironic that you'd want to invite back the ancient precolumbian gods at a sporting match. Perhaps instead of the Olympics, you should stage your moment skyward at the Super Bowl. Those gods really loved their ball games! I'm sure at least half the fans would be OK with the traditional post-game ritual of sacrificing the losers. Maybe they could vote on it.. 51 percent say "cut their hearts out with an obsidian* blade?" Who can argue with democracy? Expand our vision of the possible!

During halftime, we could sacrifice a few teenagers. The gods love that as well. You could get together with USEagle 13, go down to the mall and select some of those spoiled, unsupervised ones (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=198012). Show the little bastards who's boss.

* Chipped, so we don't have to wait till the gods show up with the advanced technology. It's nice to set the table before company arrives.

I thought they sacrificed the 'winners', as they were a fit gift to the gods...?

Regardless, the heavenly agents today, are not the same ones from pre-comlumbian era. They are modern, just like the world they live in. Just like Germans today aren't Nazi's.

[Marduk]

Regardless, the heavenly agents today, are not the same ones from pre-comlumbian era. They are modern, just like the world they live in. Just like Germans today aren't Nazi's.

so 500 years ago they had advanced technology but were still demanding thousands of sacrifices ?

I expect they've now perfected their disintergrator ray gun
:p

[bruto]

I thought they sacrificed the 'winners', as they were a fit gift to the gods...? If you thought about this for a moment or two perhaps you'd come to realize how stupid that is. Who would make the effort to win such a game? edit to add: My opinion here, not shared, it seems on further research, by some, including that old crank Joseph Campbell, who insisted that it was the captain of the winning team who lost his head. I will concede that the stupidity may be either Campbell's or the Mayans' rather than KoA's!

Regardless, the heavenly agents today, are not the same ones from pre-comlumbian era. They are modern, just like the world they live in. Just like Germans today aren't Nazi's.And you know this just how?

[RoboTimbo]

Still haven't answered this, KotA.

MOST of them...

A simple majority of humanity? About 3.45B people then out of ~6.9B. Where did you come by the knowledge that that is the tipping point?

Where did you come by this knowledge? Or did you just make it up?

[devnull]

Personally Im still wondering about the "next step in evolution".

Does KOTA know something about evolution that I dont?

[dafydd]

Personally Im still wondering about the "next step in evolution".

Does KOTA know something about evolution that I dont?

No.

[King of the Americas]

Personally Im still wondering about the "next step in evolution".

Does KOTA know something about evolution that I dont?

Going from living in portable animal skin tents to living in brick homes with climate control would be 'progress' or a step in evolution.

Passing technology on to someone who lacks it is aiding them in their evolution.

When our heavenly onlookers decide to descend, knowledge of their very existence, will have a profound and lasting effect on our further development.

The only thing I claim to know that you don't, is that 'they' exist...

[King of the Americas]

If you thought about this for a moment or two perhaps you'd come to realize how stupid that is. Who would make the effort to win such a game? edit to add: My opinion here, not shared, it seems on further research, by some, including that old crank Joseph Campbell, who insisted that it was the captain of the winning team who lost his head. I will concede that the stupidity may be either Campbell's or the Mayans' rather than KoA's! And you know this just how?

Is it stupid to throw your body on a grenade to save the rest of your unit? To some, maybe, to others it is the highest form of bravery. Now if the guy in charge says we need a human sacrifice to appease the gods, and he starts eyeing one of your kids, I don't think it is beyond reason to think that a parent would volunteer in place of their child.

You are looking at death, in a manner different than the Maya. You wouldn't get me into a cockpit into a WWII Japanese plane to fly into a U.S. destroyer, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen hundreds of times.

Given I never attended a Mayan ball game, I don't know who got the honor of being a gift to the gods, but I am certainly not arrogant enough to say that everyone in the history of time feels the same way about death and sacrifice as modern man or society does now.

[King of the Americas]

Still haven't answered this, KotA.



Where did you come by this knowledge? Or did you just make it up?

It's just a theory...

[aggle-rithm]

Aggle is the new Lisa?:confused:

Nah.

"I blame aggle-rithm" doesn't have the same zing to it.

[aggle-rithm]

It's just a theory...

I think you mean "hypothesis".

I'm not sure it even qualifies as that, because it can't really be tested. "Speculation" may be better.

[aggle-rithm]

Going from living in portable animal skin tents to living in brick homes with climate control would be 'progress' or a step in evolution.

Passing technology on to someone who lacks it is aiding them in their evolution.



Only for an extremely broad definition of the word "evolution".


When our heavenly onlookers decide to descend, knowledge of their very existence, will have a profound and lasting effect on our further development.

The only thing I claim to know that you don't, is that 'they' exist...

But you don't really "know" it, do you? You just believe.

[aggle-rithm]

...you guys are way off...

...I think they arrive to expand our notion of what is possible...

We humans are ALWAYS expanding our notion of what is possible. We are doing things today that were practically impossible ten years ago.

It was less than a century ago that many people considered it impossible to synch up sound with film to make a "talkie". Just ten years later, it was routine.

[King of the Americas]

...

But you don't really "know" it, do you? You just believe.

I 'know' they exist, like I know there are cats in my neighborhood, even if I've never touched one of them.