Did the education system fail Loughner?

[case#46cw39]

Something that irks me about Loughner is for all his bitching and moaning about words and meaning, and his apparent disgust for the overuse of small words... his grammar is pathetic.

I mean, it's sad. His logic is cyclic and proves nothing, his spelling and grammar are atrocious, and every one of his arguments lacks depth, logic, fact, or definition.

For someone who constantly complains about the lack of intelligence in discourse, he showed very little of his own.


He's an indictment of the American education system. He should have learned real critical thinking in elementary school.


He could be used as the poster boy for why we need critical thinking to be taught in the elementary schools.

[drkitten]

Something that irks me about Loughner is for all his bitching and moaning about words and meaning, and his apparent disgust for the overuse of small words... his grammar is pathetic.

[...]

He could be used as the poster boy for why we need critical thinking to be taught in the elementary schools.

Well, he certainly got less out of the education system than I would like, but this may well be a case of "you can't put in what God's left out." Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.

[Fnord]

... Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.
^ This, FTW ^

You can't carry water in a sieve.

[case#46cw39]

There was a time around 10th grade and before that he was described as "amiable" and not crazy. Maybe his obvious ignorance was what drove his particular brand of behavior, and if he had real critical thinking training way back in elementary school, he would not have been able to entertain his pathetic, illogical thoughts for so long, festering and boiling in his mind.

Maybe proper critical thinking training would have led him to the conclusion that he's not as smart as he thinks he is, others aren't as dumb as he thought they were and HATED them for, and maybe he would have learned/developed better coping skills, maybe he could have observed critically his failing mental state and sought help, and maybe he would have gotten a better job making him feel invested in his future. Maybe.

[fuelair]

Well, he certainly got less out of the education system than I would like, but this may well be a case of "you can't put in what God's left out." Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.

Case, I'm taking a wild stab here, but I think you overlooked this^^^^^^^.

Assuming schizo, he could have learned grammar and critical thinking well, but lost those functions when the wiring unraveled.

[fuelair]

Noted, however, and agree that critical thinking education is a good idea!!

[case#46cw39]

I've got schizo bad. Hear Voices constantly telling me all manner of bizarre thoughts and delusions.

I learned critical thinking and it saved my life. The Voices could NEVER "trick" me into any violent behavior now.

Do I write like Loughner?

[drkitten]

There was a time around 10th grade and before that he was described as "amiable" and not crazy. Maybe his obvious stupidity was what drove his particular brand of behavior, and if he had real critical thinking training way back in elementary school, he would not have been able to entertain his pathetic, illogical thoughts for so long, festering and boiling in his mind.

Maybe proper critical thinking training would have led him to the conclusion that he's not as smart as he thinks he is,

Maybe, but don't confuse stupidity with ignorance and/or lack of training.

In broad terms, ignorant people are ignorant because they haven't learned something, often for lack of opportunity. Stupid people are stupid because they can't learn.

There's a lot of work out there about how unskilled people can't recognize their lack of skill (Dunning-Kroger effect), and I suspect that "his obvious stupidity" may be what prevented him from recognizing that he wasn't as smart as he thinks he is.

Which is a long-winded version of "you can't put in what God's left out."

[Mirrorglass]

Maybe, but don't confuse stupidity with ignorance and/or lack of training.

In broad terms, ignorant people are ignorant because they haven't learned something, often for lack of opportunity. Stupid people are stupid because they can't learn.

There's a lot of work out there about how unskilled people can't recognize their lack of skill (Dunning-Kroger effect), and I suspect that "his obvious stupidity" may be what prevented him from recognizing that he wasn't as smart as he thinks he is.

Which is a long-winded version of "you can't put in what God's left out."

This is probably correct; as unfortunate as it is, not everyone can be the president, a doctor and a lawyer, or even a productive member of society. Schizophrenics may not even really get the chance to not be killers.

However, making productive members of society isn't the education system's only function. Finding the members who are headed for trouble and attempting to help them is just as important, and a lot more difficult.

So in this sense, the education system did fail the boy. A perfect system would have seen something was wrong with him and provided help where possible, and limited his liberties where necessary.

I don't blame the schools for not succeeding in this; it's something extremely difficult. But I do believe that this should be a lesson, and serve as a great motivation to try. If we try hard enough, perhaps one day children like him will be found before the tragedy happens.

[Mirrorglass]

I've got schizo bad. Hear Voices constantly telling me all manner of bizarre thoughts and delusions.

I learned critical thinking and it saved my life. The Voices could NEVER "trick" me into any violent behavior now.

Do I write like Loughner?

Case, you are a very special case. You escaped from a world few have made it out of, you taught yourself skills most in your position couldn't dream of and from what I can tell, you are living a good life. You should be very glad, and very proud of yourself.

However, you should also know that while you did something extraordinary, no doubt with your own strength, you are also very lucky to have that strength. Not everyone does.

I think your writings are very important, and could potentially save the lives of many schizophrenics. But even so, they can't save everybody. Critical thinking may well be the key to helping many, many people with this condition. But whether it could have helped in this particular case is anyone's guess.

[case#46cw39]

Ah, I see. Thanks drkitten. I changed stupidity to ignorance in my post.

I do have another case I've been in touch with, well actually his mother. He, "case002", is 10 years old. He hears Voices. He listens and talks to them. He says it's Jesus talking to him. He has also said that it's ghosts and they are following him around. He based that on the fact his school was built over a grave yard where he thinks ghosts hang around. He hears Voices, so he has concluded they or some of them are ghosts talking to him.

Poor kid. Struggling so hard to explain it to himself using anything he knows.

I told his mother about MCT - metacognitive training for schizophrenia. It has 8 modules, 2 of which are "Jumping to Conclusions" modules and another that is also critical thinking related.

Well she told me a story of how he behaves. I wrote a piece summarizing the jumping to conclusions modules and how she might apply it. Over a week she did so and just wrote me a letter about how it went. Very interesting. This is with a 10 year old mind you.

I'll try to get her permission to publish her letters to me so you can see what happened, and post it in this thread.

[Mirrorglass]

Ah, I see. Thanks drkitten. I changed stupidity to ignorance in my post.

I do have another case I've been in touch with, well actually his mother. He, "case002", is 10 years old. He hears Voices. He listens and talks to them. He says it's Jesus talking to him. He has also said that it's ghosts and they are following him around. He based that on the fact his school was built over a grave yard where he thinks ghosts hang around. He hears Voices, so he has concluded they or some of them are ghosts talking to him.

Poor kid. Struggling so hard to explain it to himself using anything he knows.

I told his mother about MCT - metacognitive training for schizophrenia. It has 8 modules, 2 of which are "Jumping to Conclusions" modules and another that is also critical thinking related.

Well she told me a story of how he behaves. I wrote a piece summarizing the jumping to conclusions modules and how she might apply it. Over a week she did so and just wrote me a letter about how it went. Very interesting. This is with a 10 year old mind you.

I'll try to get her permission to publish her letters to me so you can see what happened, and post it in this thread.

I'd be interested to see those, but I think you should start a new thread for that; let this one be about Loughner and the educational system. It's much easier to discuss subjects separately, even if they are related.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why pick on the "failure of the educational system" for his lack of treatment? Surely it is society itself that has failed?

We just had a similar incident in Toronto (though with a much better outcome).

Man in standoff sought help for years: Mom
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/01/12/16864831.html

Do people have a right to be crazy?

[drkitten]

So in this sense, the education system did fail the boy. A perfect system would have seen something was wrong with him and provided help where possible, and limited his liberties where necessary.

Why is it the job of the educational system to provide medical help?

I mean, a lot of children perform badly in school due to undernourishment, too. That's well-documented. But it seems to be missing the point to expect schools to be catering companies, too.

[Darat]

Why is it the job of the educational system to provide medical help?

I mean, a lot of children perform badly in school due to undernourishment, too. That's well-documented. But it seems to be missing the point to expect schools to be catering companies, too.

I agree - it does seem at times that people expect schools to provide parenting rather than education.

[drkitten]

I agree - it does seem at times that people expect schools to provide parenting rather than education.

Especially since, legally, they can't.

It's very difficult even for the schools to remove a disruptive student from class without the parents' explicit consent. The schools certainly can't force a student into a medical examination or treatment.

And the privacy laws governing school records have teeth; if someone's fifth-grade teacher did spot someone as a potential schizophrenic -- which makes me wonder where that particular fifth-grade teacher attended medical school -- there's not going to be a notation in any file that the gun merchants or police have access to.

[case#46cw39]

I'm not talking about medical treatment or parenting them. I'm talking about straight-forward, good for all students equally, critical thinking training taught in normal classes for all students.

It just so happens that this very same, simple, critical thinking can help SZ with their Voices, and delusions. This has been shown in experimental studies performed by the 2 psychiatrists who developed MCT for SZ. That's why general critical thinking skills are a big part of MCT.

When I publish the letters you will see what I mean.

[Fnord]

Surely it is society itself that has failed?

"Society" did not fail this man. Only his parents and those institutions that both (1) came in contact with him, and (2) could have intervened failed him.

To claim that "society failed him" is to say that everyone - everyone - somehow shares in the guilt for this heinous crime, whether or not they ever met the man.

This "share the guilt" idea has no merit. Otherwise, you may as well dock everyone for "Original Sin" as well.

[blutoski]

Thoughts:

1) schizophrenia manifests differently for different patients; mostly it manfests as disjointed thinking (auditory hallucinations are actually uncommon); Loughner's word salads and scrambled trains of thought do look like a manifestation of some kind of illness - it may not represent what he has learned through school (he's at the right age for a first episode)

2) unfortunately, there is only weak and conflicting evidence that "separate courses" in critical thinking produce any improvement in critical thinking outcomes; there is evidence that education as a whole produces critical thinkers - that's why it's integrated into public education in all subjects;

3) MCT has good prospects, but it not a one-size-fits-all solution for every schizophrenic patient; for example, catatonics obviously can't use this;

4) I'm not sure we have concluded that Loughner's condition was schizophrenia. For example, he could have been experiencing episodes of mania with psychotic features. This is a mood disorder.

[blutoski]

I think your writings are very important, and could potentially save the lives of many schizophrenics. But even so, they can't save everybody. Critical thinking may well be the key to helping many, many people with this condition. But whether it could have helped in this particular case is anyone's guess.

I think it's dubious. The sad truth is that schizophrenia is quite indescriminate.

My wife actually has a pt right now who actually taught critical thinking. The pt was a philosophy instructor at UBC until his first episode struck while he was doing his postdoc in science theory. That was eight years ago, and he's only now getting back to normal activities.

Plenty of perfectly good ex-critical thinkers struggling in Riverview, unfortunately.

[case#46cw39]

I agree with you that he may not be SZ. But the authors say in the manual that it can be useful for any kind of psychosis.

All I'm saying is that his mind was a mess from ignorance, psychosis, or some combination. Maybe if he had learned critical thinking he could have thought clearer and flushed his clearly poor and jumbled thoughts out, or balanced them out.

The best I've seen, used, and applied to a 10 year old with SZ, is contained in MCT. Exactly how it's delivered isn't really my point and I don't know much about that.

But maybe I'm wrong. Oh well. I tried.

[rwguinn]

I'm not talking about medical treatment or parenting them. I'm talking about straight-forward, good for all students equally, critical thinking training taught in normal classes for all students.

...
In this case, the education system did not fail Loughner.
It did fail the rest of society, by failing to identify (or at least, by failing to recognize) what he was and his problems with society in general.

[Crazycowbob]

While critical thinking, at least in your case, seems to help, I think you may be oversimplyfying matters some though. Even if you both have SZ, you can never assume that what works for you will work for someone else. That would be like me telling the chubby guy down the street just to eat right to get his weight down. Sure it works for me, but my brain chemistry isn't his brain chemistry, my desire for that cheeseburger may not compare at all to his desire, brains are funny that way, just as your experiences with SZ may be absolutely nothing like what his were in type, or intensity. Unless you understand the real extent and root of the problem, treatment is just going to be a guessing game.

[case#46cw39]

No not really. Like I said, MCT was experimentally studied in a number of studies with many SZ patients. It's the most studied (in actual experiments) psychotherapy for SZ. And I applied it myself and someone else and it worked for him. But whatever. I'm losing interest.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

"Society" did not fail this man. Only his parents and those institutions that both (1) came in contact with him, and (2) could have intervened failed him.

To claim that "society failed him" is to say that everyone - everyone - somehow shares in the guilt for this heinous crime, whether or not they ever met the man.

This "share the guilt" idea has no merit. Otherwise, you may as well dock everyone for "Original Sin" as well.

I don't hold society guilty for anything. :confused:

[JoeTheJuggler]

"Society" did not fail this man. Only his parents and those institutions that both (1) came in contact with him, and (2) could have intervened failed him.

To claim that "society failed him" is to say that everyone - everyone - somehow shares in the guilt for this heinous crime, whether or not they ever met the man.

This "share the guilt" idea has no merit. Otherwise, you may as well dock everyone for "Original Sin" as well.

I agree, though I'm also hesitant to hold even parents and institutions that were in close contact with him responsible either. Mental illness can be really tricky--and really really tragic.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The education system failed him when the Community College called his parents instead of a mental health professional.

[case#46cw39]

The education system failed him when the Community College called his parents instead of a mental health professional.

Yeah. That's the other angle. The lead up at the school with all those warnings. The classmate who said to friend "He's the type to bring in an automatic weapon." The teacher who saw the same signs. The campus police who were called. The administrators. Arizona is the easiest state to get a person involuntarily committed.

Even the student could have filed the report that could get it done. Her and collaboration of others, probably would have been overwhelming evidence..

Odd thing is, in PA I was involuntarily committed and held for 11 days for a lot less (suicide talk). Then they pumped me full of drugs and attempted psychotherapy (poor). He could have been put through same medical regiment.

Problem was I don't think the school or student knew they had that power. I don't think they were able to confidently make such a serious decision with their knowledge of what constitutes a serious clinical mental illness. But like you said they could have called in a professional, if they didn't.

[Gallstones]

Something that irks me about Loughner is for all his bitching and moaning about words and meaning, and his apparent disgust for the overuse of small words... his grammar is pathetic.

I mean, it's sad. His logic is cyclic and proves nothing, his spelling and grammar are atrocious, and every one of his arguments lacks depth, logic, fact, or definition.

For someone who constantly complains about the lack of intelligence in discourse, he showed very little of his own.


He's an indictment of the American education system. He should have learned real critical thinking in elementary school.


He could be used as the poster boy for why we need critical thinking to be taught in the elementary schools.

He isn't an example of a failed education, he is an example of a mind that doesn't work right. Period.

"Normals" can be so clueless and imperceptive.

[case#46cw39]

The tragic irony is that Arizona boasts some of the strongest [involuntary commitment] laws in America. Had Jared Lee Loughner been referred to mental-health professionals, there is a chance that his bloody rampage could have been prevented. Think of all the people and institutions — his parents, his neighbors, his fellow Pima Community College (PCC) students, PCC administrators, the campus police, the Pima County Sheriff’s Office — who witnessed signs of his psychosis but apparently failed to notify the relevant officials. A simple court petition could have saved six lives.

On the other hand, as TAC founder Dr. Fuller Torrey has noted, Arizona’s public mental-health services are actually quite poor. The system is woefully — indeed, frighteningly — ill-equipped to manage the state’s psychiatric population.

Full Article: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/257058/lesson-loughner-editors

[blutoski]

Regarding the absurd grammar. I thought something was familiar about it, but it took awhile.

I suspect a lot of it is intentional. The theory is that special use of grammar can avoid taxation or legal consequences. For example, a woman in Hawaii claimed that her distinctive use of her name meant she was not part of the US citizenry, but a [Sovereign Citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement)]. My guess is that Loughner bought in.

See: David Wynn Miller - [website (http://dwmlc.com/)]

[Mirrorglass]

Why is it the job of the educational system to provide medical help?

I mean, a lot of children perform badly in school due to undernourishment, too. That's well-documented. But it seems to be missing the point to expect schools to be catering companies, too.

I certainly think that if a kid going to school was found to be malnourished, the school should take action. Not by actually feeding the kid, of course, but by forwarding the case to relevant authorities.

An important task of schools beside education is to monitor the children attending for just this kind of signs; poor health, signs of abuse, malnutrition, psychological instability.. and when necessary, take action to counter the problems. This does not mean doing everything themselves. But no other public establishment is in a position to actually monitor all (or at least most) children.

Even in a perfect world, the school most likely would not have given the boy psychotherapy - but it would have referred him to a psychiatrist or social worker.

[USEagle13]

He was hardcore into the occult (like Hitler) and even went as far as making "altar like" setups with skulls n candles n stuff. He was hardcore anti God also (which most occult are).

Basically he was a devil worshiper.

The education system cannot control what a student does or studies outside the classroom.

[Mirrorglass]

He was hardcore into the occult (like Hitler) and even went as far as making "altar like" setups with skulls n candles n stuff. He was hardcore anti God also (which most occult are).

Basically he was a devil worshiper.

The education system cannot control what a student does or studies outside the classroom.

Evidence for the Hitler claim? :rolleyes:

[case#46cw39]

Regarding the absurd grammar. I thought something was familiar about it, but it took awhile.

I suspect a lot of it is intentional. The theory is that special use of grammar can avoid taxation or legal consequences. For example, a woman in Hawaii claimed that her distinctive use of her name meant she was not part of the US citizenry, but a [Sovereign Citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement)]. My guess is that Loughner bought in.

See: David Wynn Miller - [website (http://dwmlc.com/)]

Good find blutoski. Thanks. And I thought I was insane. I'm starting to think I'm the most sane person on this planet. Seriously. I really need to get away from this madness; Fiji Islands, alone with just myself, sounds awesome.
Here's some sane reading for you from Miller site:

~1 FOR THIS PLENIPOTENTIARY-JUDGE: David-Wynn: Miller's-KNOWLEDGE OF THESE CORRECT-SENTENCE-STRUCTURES-COMMUNICATION-PARSE-SYNTAX-LANGUAGE=(C.-S.-S.-C.-P.-S.-L.) IS WITH THE CLAIMS BY THE QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-NOW-TIME-WRITTEN-COMMUNICATION-FACTS.

~2 FOR THE EDUCATIONAL-CORRECTIONS OF THESE MODIFYING-COMMUNICATIONS ARE WITH THESE CORRECTION-CLAIMS AGAINST THESE FICTIONAL-ADVERB-VERB-USAGE WITH AN OPERATIONAL-METHODS OF A FICTIONAL-MODIFICATION-LANGUAGE.(8500-YEARS OF THE SYNTAX-MODIFICATIONS WITH EVERY LANGUAGE)

~3 FOR THE NOUN = NO-NO OF THE INFORMATION(IN=NO, FORM=STRUCTURE, AT=LOCATION, ION=CONTRACT) WITH THE FICTION-WORDS ARE WITH AN AILING-(CORRUPTION FROM THE ORIGIN)-MEANING BY THE FICTIONAL, SIMULATION, ILLUTIONAL, PRESUMPTION, ASSUMPTION, GUESSING, PERJURY AND WITH THE LYING-VOLITION OF A FACT.

~4 FOR THESE C.-S.-S.-C.-P.-S.-L.-CORRECTION OF A SENTENCE-STRUCTURE ARE WITH THESE CLAIMS OF THE C.-S.-S.-C.-P.-S.-L. WITH THESE CONTRACT-STATES-PERSONS OF THE (TWO-OR-MORE)CORPORATION-VESSEL-PAPER-DOCUMENTS. ~5 :NOTE: WORD "PARTY" = ONE-HUMAN-OPINION = VOID-CONTRACT = SOVEREIGN.

[Astrodude]

Well, he certainly got less out of the education system than I would like, but this may well be a case of "you can't put in what God's left out." Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.

Lots of people have "heads full of bad wiring" and don't kill little girls and well meaning officials just because they're upset. Having a poor education doesn't explain why he shot those people, particularly the child. The education system probably pampered him too much.

Giffords probably will have bad wiring too and I bet she won't go on a killing spree. She might never be fit again to serve in Congress, but I can almost guarantee she won't kill anybody. Phineas Gage never killed anybody despite having serious brain injuries that made him emotionally unstable.

Loughner was just a sadistic attention whore. In a way, I feel sorry for him because something turned him into the monster he is. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider him responsible for those actions. Everything has a cause, but a government needs to consider people responsible for their actions unless they were deliberately brainwashed or forced by an external agent.

[Astrodude]

Evidence for the Hitler claim? :rolleyes:

Hitler wrote a few occult tracts. The early Nazis were generally a secretive occult group so Hitler would have had to follow some occult practices nominally to advance through the party. Most Aryan-superiority and anti-semitic publications in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century were occult in nature. Hitler was a friend of Lanz von Liebenfels and subscribed to the occult magazine Ostara prior to joining the Nazi party. He wrote an poem to Oden in which he stated that he was looking for magic rune stones.

[Mirrorglass]

Hitler wrote a few occult tracts. The early Nazis were generally a secretive occult group so Hitler would have had to follow some occult practices nominally to advance through the party. Most Aryan-superiority and anti-semitic publications in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century were occult in nature. Hitler was a friend of Lanz von Liebenfels and subscribed to the occult magazine Ostara prior to joining the Nazi party. He wrote an poem to Oden in which he stated that he was looking for magic rune stones.

Well, before I comment, I'd like to see your sources for this information. I'm not saying you're lying; it's just that I've never heard of this before, so I'd like to see where you found out about it.

[case#46cw39]

Chinemerem Eze, a Nigerian national attending Brooklyn College, believed that her landlord had hidden a camera in her apartment. When she asked school officials for help, they shipped her off to a psychiatric ward. ... That's what school psychologist Sally Robles thought. When Eze went to Brooklyn College's Office of Campus and Community Safety Services to ask for help, security officers called Robles, who proceeded to ask Eze about her mental health history and whether she ever heard voices. When Eze protested that she was simply an international student asking the school's security staff for help on dealing with a housing issue, Robles called an ambulance.

Eze was "forced" into the ambulance by school officials, and ended up being committed to Kings County Psychiatric Hospital for two weeks,
http://gawker.com/5733005/student-sues-college-for-having-her-committed-over-hidden-cam?skyline=true&s=i

Apparently it can be done fairly easily.

[USEagle13]

Evidence for the Hitler claim? :rolleyes:

Good Lord son. I about fell outta my chair when I seen your post. Its a well known fact among historians that Hitler was into the Occult.

Why the eye rolling!? Are you an expert on Hitler!?

Ever seen the sigil he had put on the Jews!? Ever heard of his exploits in S.America, Antarctica, and Asia? Ever heard of the German spies that landed in Long Island?

Here is a quickie link to an educational video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnXDjx50pc) on the topic as my initial info was taken from some books at a library years ago. And not school. Schools usually don't cover the juicy stuff. Most is fluff. Especially when they cover WWII.

[USEagle13]

Well, before I comment, I'd like to see your sources for this information. I'm not saying you're lying; it's just that I've never heard of this before, so I'd like to see where you found out about it.

Evidently you never do your own research and need people to point you in the proper direction. Tons of info on Hitler out there.

[calebprime]

Evidently you never do your own research and need people to point you in the proper direction. Tons of info on Hitler out there.

List some.

[case#46cw39]

5 sec Big Brain search. The Big Brain knows all ...

Hitler and the Occult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hitler and the Occult, produced by Bram Roos and Phyllis Cannon and narrated by David Ackroyd, is a 50 minute History Channel documentary regarding Nazi ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_and_the_Occult - Cached - Similar
Nazism and occultism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As evidence of Hitler's "occult power" this documentary offers, for example ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism - Cached
Show more results from wikipedia.org
Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy – Hitler Documentary
Dec 6, 2006 ... The Occult Conspiracy is a pretty solid documentary regarding Hitler and Nazi occult significance. This Nazi video documentary contains many ...
www.illuminatiarchives.org/.../nazis-the-occult-conspiracy-hitler-documentary/ - Cached - Similar
National.Geographic.Hitler.and.the.Occult.DVB.Xvid .mp3.www.mvgroup ...
torrentreactor.net National Geographic Hitler and the Occult DVB Xvid mp3 www mvgroup org avi movies documentary: 2 months ago ...
www.torrentz.com/86ffb14d15162c930fcae464f41237012892d482 - Cached - Similar
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary ...
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary on documentariestv.net, The world knows how the Third Reich ended. Few know how it began.
www.documentariestv.net/.../hitler-and-the-occult-video_1a4b2d920.html - Cached
Watch documentary online The occult history of the third reich: 3 ...
Watch documentary online The occult history of the third reich: 3- Adolf ...
www.documentariestv.net/.../the-

[calebprime]

5 sec Big Brain search. The Big Brain knows all ...

Hitler and the Occult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hitler and the Occult, produced by Bram Roos and Phyllis Cannon and narrated by David Ackroyd, is a 50 minute History Channel documentary regarding Nazi ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_and_the_Occult - Cached - Similar
Nazism and occultism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As evidence of Hitler's "occult power" this documentary offers, for example ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism - Cached
Show more results from wikipedia.org
Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy – Hitler Documentary
Dec 6, 2006 ... The Occult Conspiracy is a pretty solid documentary regarding Hitler and Nazi occult significance. This Nazi video documentary contains many ...
www.illuminatiarchives.org/.../nazis-the-occult-conspiracy-hitler-documentary/ - Cached - Similar
National.Geographic.Hitler.and.the.Occult.DVB.Xvid .mp3.www.mvgroup ...
torrentreactor.net National Geographic Hitler and the Occult DVB Xvid mp3 www mvgroup org avi movies documentary: 2 months ago ...
www.torrentz.com/86ffb14d15162c930fcae464f41237012892d482 - Cached - Similar
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary ...
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary on documentariestv.net, The world knows how the Third Reich ended. Few know how it began.
www.documentariestv.net/.../hitler-and-the-occult-video_1a4b2d920.html - Cached
Watch documentary online The occult history of the third reich: 3 ...
Watch documentary online The occult history of the third reich: 3- Adolf ...
www.documentariestv.net/.../the-


Wiki article doesn't cite any sources.

History channel just makes stuff up to be entertaining.

Illuminati Archives?? Surely you jest.

I'm not going to go through your whole list.

Can you point to one dependable source?

I'm not making any claims, only that sources need to be dependable.

[Astrodude]

Chinemerem Eze, a Nigerian national attending Brooklyn College, believed that her landlord had hidden a camera in her apartment. When she asked school officials for help, they shipped her off to a psychiatric ward. ... That's what school psychologist Sally Robles thought. When Eze went to Brooklyn College's Office of Campus and Community Safety Services to ask for help, security officers called Robles, who proceeded to ask Eze about her mental health history and whether she ever heard voices. When Eze protested that she was simply an international student asking the school's security staff for help on dealing with a housing issue, Robles called an ambulance.

Eze was "forced" into the ambulance by school officials, and ended up being committed to Kings County Psychiatric Hospital for two weeks,
http://gawker.com/5733005/student-sues-college-for-having-her-committed-over-hidden-cam?skyline=true&s=i

Apparently it can be done fairly easily.

It's a terrible thing to do and probably was one of the contributing factors in the shooting. Essentially, this women was arrested for thinking unpleasant thoughts. For all we know, her landlord was spying on her.

[case#46cw39]

I admit I'm also derailing my own thread. Big Brain page 2 ...
Occult History of the 3rd Reich
Jul 27, 2010 ... swastika used in occult history of the 3rd reich. 3rd Reich and Germanic Beliefs. Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich was dominated by the ...
www.occultblogger.com/occult-history-of-the-3rd-reich/ - Cached
►
Amazon.com: The Occult History of the Third Reich: Patrick Allen ...
35 reviews - $9.99 - In stock
"Adolf Hitler" reveals the secret history of Adolf Hitler and his involvement with the occult. Hitler read the writings of Jorg Lanz who published Ostara ...
www.amazon.com › Movies & TV › Documentary - Cached
The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult
And it was in the archives of Tibetan monasteries that this history was preserved in its ..... Stein followed Hitler's occult involvement very closely, ...
stargods.org/Nazis_and_the_Occult.html - Cached - Similar
Occult History Of The Third Reich, The: Adolf Hitler DVD Movie
Occult History Of The Third Reich, The: Adolf Hitler DVD movie video $11.85 at CD Universe, The third episode in the series explores the often astounding.
www.cduniverse.com/.../Occult+History+Of+The+Third+Reich,+The%3A+Adolf+Hi tler.htm - Cached
HITLER OCCULT
Are we fighting Satan for the soul of our Nation? Is that why we are no longer a Christian Nation? Adolf Hitler 1/6 Occult History of the 3rd Reich (1) ...
mysite.verizon.net/resz5kdf/id18.html - Cached
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary ...
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary on documentariestv.net, The world knows how the Third Reich ended. Few know how it began.
www.documentariestv.net/history/hitler-and-the-occult-video_1a4b2d920.html - Cached
The Occult History of the Third Reich - Adolf Hitler Video
Four volume documentary set ("Adolph Hitler", "The SS Blood and Soil", "The Enigma of the Swastika", and "Himmler The Mystic") containing mainly B ...
vodpod.com/.../1230590-the-occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler - Cached - Similar
HITLER AND THE OCCULT - REAL HISTORY OF THE THIRD REICH ...
Aug 5, 2008 ... Hitler founded far more than a political regime - the Third Reich was an Occult-based Order using Magical and Esoteric practices. ...
www.australianparanormalsociety.com/news/?p=235 - Cached - Similar
The Occult History of the Third Reich: Adolf Hitler > Overview ...
The last in a three-part series of documentaries that explore the links between the Third Reich and its leaders and belief in occult powers…
www.allmovie.com/.../occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler-35911 - Cached
Watch "The Occult History Of The Third Reich - Adolf Hitler" Free ...
The Occult History Of The Third Reich - Adolf Hitler Summary: Four volume documentary set ("Adolph Hitler", "The SS Blood and Soil", "The Enigma of the ...
www.iwatchdocumentaries.com/.../the-occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler/ - Cached

[calebprime]

I admit I'm also derailing my own thread. Big Brain page 2 ...
Occult History of the 3rd Reich
Jul 27, 2010 ... swastika used in occult history of the 3rd reich. 3rd Reich and Germanic Beliefs. Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich was dominated by the ...
www.occultblogger.com/occult-history-of-the-3rd-reich/ - Cached
►
Amazon.com: The Occult History of the Third Reich: Patrick Allen ...
35 reviews - $9.99 - In stock
"Adolf Hitler" reveals the secret history of Adolf Hitler and his involvement with the occult. Hitler read the writings of Jorg Lanz who published Ostara ...
www.amazon.com › Movies & TV › Documentary - Cached
The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult
And it was in the archives of Tibetan monasteries that this history was preserved in its ..... Stein followed Hitler's occult involvement very closely, ...
stargods.org/Nazis_and_the_Occult.html - Cached - Similar
Occult History Of The Third Reich, The: Adolf Hitler DVD Movie
Occult History Of The Third Reich, The: Adolf Hitler DVD movie video $11.85 at CD Universe, The third episode in the series explores the often astounding.
www.cduniverse.com/.../Occult+History+Of+The+Third+Reich,+The%3A+Adolf+Hi tler.htm - Cached
HITLER OCCULT
Are we fighting Satan for the soul of our Nation? Is that why we are no longer a Christian Nation? Adolf Hitler 1/6 Occult History of the 3rd Reich (1) ...
mysite.verizon.net/resz5kdf/id18.html - Cached
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary ...
Watch documentary online Hitler and the occult History documentary on documentariestv.net, The world knows how the Third Reich ended. Few know how it began.
www.documentariestv.net/history/hitler-and-the-occult-video_1a4b2d920.html - Cached
The Occult History of the Third Reich - Adolf Hitler Video
Four volume documentary set ("Adolph Hitler", "The SS Blood and Soil", "The Enigma of the Swastika", and "Himmler The Mystic") containing mainly B ...
vodpod.com/.../1230590-the-occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler - Cached - Similar
HITLER AND THE OCCULT - REAL HISTORY OF THE THIRD REICH ...
Aug 5, 2008 ... Hitler founded far more than a political regime - the Third Reich was an Occult-based Order using Magical and Esoteric practices. ...
www.australianparanormalsociety.com/news/?p=235 - Cached - Similar
The Occult History of the Third Reich: Adolf Hitler > Overview ...
The last in a three-part series of documentaries that explore the links between the Third Reich and its leaders and belief in occult powers…
www.allmovie.com/.../occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler-35911 - Cached
Watch "The Occult History Of The Third Reich - Adolf Hitler" Free ...
The Occult History Of The Third Reich - Adolf Hitler Summary: Four volume documentary set ("Adolph Hitler", "The SS Blood and Soil", "The Enigma of the ...
www.iwatchdocumentaries.com/.../the-occult-history-of-the-third-reich-adolf-hitler/ - Cached

Unresponsive to my question, which asked you to point to one dependable source.

It's easy to pull stuff up off the 'net. Most of it is junk, as you well know.

It can probably be done. However, I'd wager that the more serious the source, the less sensational the claims.

And besides, the significance of Hitler dabbling in this or that would be....??

eta: I'm interested in the original claim: Hitler wrote a few occult tracts, and that to advance through the ranks, he needed to be into the occult.

Not that this or that symbol was appropriated from somewhere, or that someone wrote a poem.

[Mirrorglass]

Good Lord son. I about fell outta my chair when I seen your post. Its a well known fact among historians that Hitler was into the Occult.

Why the eye rolling!? Are you an expert on Hitler!?

Ever seen the sigil he had put on the Jews!? Ever heard of his exploits in S.America, Antarctica, and Asia? Ever heard of the German spies that landed in Long Island?

Here is a quickie link to an educational video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnXDjx50pc) on the topic as my initial info was taken from some books at a library years ago. And not school. Schools usually don't cover the juicy stuff. Most is fluff. Especially when they cover WWII.

If it's a well known fact among historians, certainly you can point to some historical references? Anyone can make empty claims. Can you point to actual, reputable historians who document Hitler doing any of these things?

Out of principle, I don't watch youtube videos offered as "evidence". They do tend to be.. lacking.

[case#46cw39]

Well let's see what the scholarly lobe of the Big Brain has to say ...

oxford journal website -
Downloaded from jcs.oxfordjournals.org by guest on January 14, 2011660 JOURNAL OF CHURCH AND STATE

Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement with the Occult. By Peter
Levenda. New York: Continuum International Publishing Group, 2003. 423
pp. $22.95.

Peter Levenda offers readers a thorough yet popular history of the occult
background and roots of the Nazi movement beginning in the late nineteenth
and early twentieth centuries. The author shows how various international occult groups had a profound influence on Nazi ideology before and during the
rise to power of Adolf Hitler and other members of the Third Reich in Germany. Indeed, the Nazi appropriation of the occult was a bizarre blend of astrology, freemasonry, outright racism steeped in occultism or mysticism, and
popular European folklore.

Levenda portrays Hitler and other prominent Nazis like Heinrich
Himmler, leader of the notorious SS or Gestapo, as dedicated believers and
practitioners of the occult.

Levenda is careful not to attribute the horrors of Auschwitz, or of militaristic Nazism and other forms of fascism solely to The
Secret Doctrine and Madame Blavatsky. However, in Unholy Alliance, his research into the causes and origin of Nazi belief in the occult is both plausible
and thorough, ...

JIM LEWIS
BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
WACO, TEXAS

http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/3/659.full.pdf

[Crazycowbob]

It's a terrible thing to do and probably was one of the contributing factors in the shooting. Essentially, this women was arrested for thinking unpleasant thoughts. For all we know, her landlord was spying on her.

Maybe he was spying on her, or maybe her actions while reporting the incident made them think she was unbalanced. There's not enough information here to really determine why they felt a need to send her to the mental ward. Maybe they were over reacting, or maybe she was acting like a crazy customer that was just told you were out of widgets, and threw a fit. If someone is screaming, throwing a fit, and making it impossible to really help them, frankly I think they do need some psychiatric help. Unfortunately, like I said, there's not enough information here to know where this girl stood in that regard, and I'd say it's poor reporting that contributes to people thinking one way or the other because of lack of facts.

[case#46cw39]

Here's another for our consideration for the truth of this (I'm not saying I know one way or the other either) ...

Occultism, Race and Politics in German-speaking Europe, 1880—1940: A Survey of the Historical Literature
Peter Staudenmaier
Cornell University, USA

Abstract

In recognition of a recent renewal of scholarly interest in nineteenth- and twentieth-century German occultism, this review essay surveys the variety of existing historical treatments of the topic and points to possible directions for further research. Sources examined range from the 1960s to the present, in German and English, with attention to broader European parallels. Among other debates, a central focus is the nature and extent of the historical relationship between occultism and the völkisch milieu as well as National Socialism. In addition to a detailed overview of the available literature, the essay appraises the strengths and weaknesses of current scholarship on the modern German occult revival and argues for several specific interpretive possibilities regarding contentious issues of racial theory and the political affiliations of occult and esoteric thought.

http://ehq.sagepub.com/content/39/1/47.short

[case#46cw39]

Here's one closer to the point ...

The Mystical Origins of Nazi Ideology
Andrew Minton

The foundation of mysticism in Nazi ideology comes from a variety of sources. Most of these sources have their beginnings in the German folk movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is from this era that thinkers like Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfels along with groups like the Thule society and Germanenorden began to generate the ideas that would later influence many Nazi officials including Adolf Hitler. These early 20th century German folk movements generated renewed interest in the occult and pagan practices of the past, and gave rise to some dangerous beliefs that would have direct influences on Nazi ideology. The ideas of Aryan racial superiority, anti-Semitism, armanism, theozoology, and the Pan-Germanic vision all have roots in occult philosophies and had direct influences on Nazi ideology. It is through the increased interest in the pagan rituals of the past that the occultist and mystic ideologies of the German folk movements came to influence Nazi leaders and ideology.

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:eWumkVCp-B4J:scholar.google.com/+hitler+occult&hl=en&as_sdt=0,33

[case#46cw39]

sometimes youtube does get it right ... Now this is information I can believe in ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpk5K2Pshmc

[calebprime]

Well let's see what the scholarly lobe of the Big Brain has to say ...

oxford journal website -
Downloaded from jcs.oxfordjournals.org by guest on January 14, 2011660 JOURNAL OF CHURCH AND STATE

Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement with the Occult. By Peter
Levenda. New York: Continuum International Publishing Group, 2003. 423
pp. $22.95.

Peter Levenda offers readers a thorough yet popular history of the occult
background and roots of the Nazi movement beginning in the late nineteenth
and early twentieth centuries. The author shows how various international occult groups had a profound influence on Nazi ideology before and during the
rise to power of Adolf Hitler and other members of the Third Reich in Germany. Indeed, the Nazi appropriation of the occult was a bizarre blend of astrology, freemasonry, outright racism steeped in occultism or mysticism, and
popular European folklore.

Levenda portrays Hitler and other prominent Nazis like Heinrich
Himmler, leader of the notorious SS or Gestapo, as dedicated believers and
practitioners of the occult.

Levenda is careful not to attribute the horrors of Auschwitz, or of militaristic Nazism and other forms of fascism solely to The
Secret Doctrine and Madame Blavatsky. However, in Unholy Alliance, his research into the causes and origin of Nazi belief in the occult is both plausible
and thorough, ...

JIM LEWIS
BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
WACO, TEXAS

http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/3/659.full.pdf

This is not "scholarly", it's junk.


Here's another for our consideration for the truth of this (I'm not saying I know one way or the other either) ...

Occultism, Race and Politics in German-speaking Europe, 1880—1940: A Survey of the Historical Literature
Peter Staudenmaier
Cornell University, USA

Abstract

In recognition of a recent renewal of scholarly interest in nineteenth- and twentieth-century German occultism, this review essay surveys the variety of existing historical treatments of the topic and points to possible directions for further research. Sources examined range from the 1960s to the present, in German and English, with attention to broader European parallels. Among other debates, a central focus is the nature and extent of the historical relationship between occultism and the völkisch milieu as well as National Socialism. In addition to a detailed overview of the available literature, the essay appraises the strengths and weaknesses of current scholarship on the modern German occult revival and argues for several specific interpretive possibilities regarding contentious issues of racial theory and the political affiliations of occult and esoteric thought.

http://ehq.sagepub.com/content/39/1/47.short

This seems like it might be scholarly, but it's not making any wild claims, and remember, what was asserted and needs to be supported somehow was the claim that Hitler wrote something about the occult, that involvement in the occult was necessary to rise in the the Nazi party of Hitler's time, and that this is mainstream historical knowledge.

None of this is true, as far as I can make out, and none of it has been supported here.

I'm not looking at a YouTube video for evidence.

I did look at a book called Hitler, by Ian Kershaw. You know, a real book with an index and references. It has a great deal about Hitler and his rise to power. It covers the period from 1889 to 1936. There is no mention of occultism in the index. It is 800 or so pages long. It is pretty thorough.
We know Hitler admired Wagner a bit, and had some involvement with the Catholic church, neither of which means much.

It would be interesting-- this occult business -- if it could be shown to be some kind of driving force. But it wasn't. Therefore, not that interesting.

Unless, you can find some real support from a real historian.

Funny how these claims can just evaporate.

There were crackpot Nazis who believed in all kinds of stuff. The question is whether their beliefs are central to anything.

[case#46cw39]

remember, what was asserted and needs to be supported somehow was the claim that

Hitler wrote something about the occult,

that involvement in the occult was necessary to rise in the the Nazi party of Hitler's time,

and that this is mainstream historical knowledge.


Ah, I see what you are saying. sorry, never mind then

Well unfortunately the Big Brain has not achieved consciousness yet and so we can't ask it that specifically.

The semantic web (thinking brain stump) could probably go there but that hasn't arrived yet either, though it's getting closer.

[bikerdruid]

Evidently you never do your own research and need people to point you in the proper direction. Tons of info on Hitler out there.

don't be so indignant about someone questioning your sources, after all, aren't you the guy that claims there are demons on the moon?

[calebprime]

...
We know Hitler admired Wagner a bit lot, and had some involvement with the Catholic church, neither of which means much.

...

Other than singing briefly in a monastery, young Hitler doesn't appear to have had much involvement with the Catholic church.

It doesn't even appear that he made much in the way of alliances with it.

He was influenced, as a youth, by Lueger's Christian Social Party, but not by the specifically religious side of it...

[Puppycow]

There was a time around 10th grade and before that he was described as "amiable" and not crazy. Maybe his obvious ignorance was what drove his particular brand of behavior, and if he had real critical thinking training way back in elementary school, he would not have been able to entertain his pathetic, illogical thoughts for so long, festering and boiling in his mind.

Maybe proper critical thinking training would have led him to the conclusion that he's not as smart as he thinks he is, others aren't as dumb as he thought they were and HATED them for, and maybe he would have learned/developed better coping skills, maybe he could have observed critically his failing mental state and sought help, and maybe he would have gotten a better job making him feel invested in his future. Maybe.

I had a close childhood friend who was smart, and did well in school. He developed schizophrenia while he was in college. I don't how it happened, but it didn't have anything to do with the education system. It's a disease that strikes people.

I seriously doubt that being taught about critical thinking would make someone immune to mental illness.

[commandlinegamer]

I think it would be wonderful to have critical thinking taught to students, from as early an age as possible, and without any exemptions for religion. I don't really see it happening any time soon though.

[aries]

First off, le me state that Himmler at least were much into the occult. He planned the SS as a sort of bringing bakc the old Teutonic Knigts and their order. He also did plan and carry out and made an organisation called the Ahnenerbe (translation would be something like familiy inheritage or peoples inheritage). And which people's heritage should they search for: well, the German people, of course.

That's what all the Nazi expeditions to Tibet were for, to find a link between the Tibet people and the German people. Many intellectuals as well as believes that there was evidence that a master race had visited from space? (or that survivors from Atlantis fled to Tibet) and spread to places like Tibet or LatinAmerica. And that was the reason for the building structures being made, since no natives could ever make anything like that.

It was also people from this organization, the Ahnenerbe, that decided whether or not you were jewish or 'arian' - or if you had enough of these features in you...

There's also this to consider:
When Hitler drifted around in Vienna in the years after the first world war (1914-1918), he came into contact with people from the socalled Thule Society and another organisation (Nordland?) that basically thought that the German people were destined to greatness, and that it only needed a redeemer, to get this done. However, even if Hitler at one point saw himself as the re-incarnation of Fredeic Barbarossa (a german, or teutonic King), he himself also were very much against all this Ahnenerbe digging into the past.

[Mirrorglass]

First off, le me state that Himmler at least were much into the occult. He planned the SS as a sort of bringing bakc the old Teutonic Knigts and their order. He also did plan and carry out and made an organisation called the Ahnenerbe (translation would be something like familiy inheritage or peoples inheritage). And which people's heritage should they search for: well, the German people, of course.

That's what all the Nazi expeditions to Tibet were for, to find a link between the Tibet people and the German people. Many intellectuals as well as believes that there was evidence that a master race had visited from space? (or that survivors from Atlantis fled to Tibet) and spread to places like Tibet or LatinAmerica. And that was the reason for the building structures being made, since no natives could ever make anything like that.

It was also people from this organization, the Ahnenerbe, that decided whether or not you were jewish or 'arian' - or if you had enough of these features in you...

There's also this to consider:
When Hitler drifted around in Vienna in the years after the first world war (1914-1918), he came into contact with people from the socalled Thule Society and another organisation (Nordland?) that basically thought that the German people were destined to greatness, and that it only needed a redeemer, to get this done. However, even if Hitler at one point saw himself as the re-incarnation of Fredeic Barbarossa (a german, or teutonic King), he himself also were very much against all this Ahnenerbe digging into the past.

Against my better judgment, I'll ask once more: please, could you provide your sources for this knowledge, which no doubt comes from reputable historians?

[aries]

In a TV-documentary shown on Danish tv recently, there is one man who has looked into this Ahhenerbe. His name is Michael Kater. http://ccges.apps01.yorku.ca/wp/staff-and-affiliates/michael-h-kater/

Also, there's the film 7 years in Tibet (which may not be much of historical evidence) which shows that the Nazis were in Tibet.Also, on the History Channel, there once was shown a documentary about the Felix-Mendelsson-Bartholdy family. And these people told about governments official going into the schools measuring if they craniums etc. were 'arian' anough. And this is interviews with living sources that has experienced it themselves.

[drkitten]

In a TV-documentary shown on Danish tv recently, there is one man who has looked into this Ahhenerbe. His name is Michael Kater. http://ccges.apps01.yorku.ca/wp/staff-and-affiliates/michael-h-kater/

Also, there's the film 7 years in Tibet (which may not be much of historical evidence) which shows that the Nazis were in Tibet.Also, on the History Channel, there once was shown a documentary about the Felix-Mendelsson-Bartholdy family.

So, your evidence is a TV documentary, a Hollywood movie, and the cable network that specializes in ghost hunters?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

After reading the last few posts in this thread, I trotted off to Wikipedia and read the article Nazism_and_occultism.

May I respectfully suggest that posters on, and others interested in, this topic do likewise?

Summary -- not proven and not likely.

:th:

[Jeff Corey]

Ever heard of the German spies that landed in Long Island?..

On 13 June 1942, 4 agents were landed from U-584 on Amagansett, Long Island, New York. The schmucks were captured right away in the city.

This had nothing to do with the occult, Mr. Non Sequitur.

[USEagle13]

On 13 June 1942, 4 agents were landed from U-584 on Amagansett, Long Island, New York. The schmucks were captured right away in the city.

This had nothing to do with the occult, Mr. Non Sequitur.

I have some Time Life VHS tapes from the 90's called secrets of WWII that sates otherwise.

They were supposed to blow up factories n stuff but assimilated, got jobs, and even had families. I'm sure they could not accomplish that in one day. Some one has been re-writing history during the age of the internet apparently.

They got caught because one of them became so "Americanized" he felt bad and got worried and turned in the others after 2yrs by giving up their names. He didn't have contact with the others and thought they still were going to carry out their plans.

The plan was they were to split up amongst the populace once on Long Island to do the duty. So during those 2yrs they didn't have any contact with one another.

It has everything to do with the Occult since they were part of Nazi Germany.

All the peeps claiming Nazis weren't into the occult are most likely occultists themselves and are just feeling guilty about it.

[bikerdruid]

I have some Time Life VHS tapes from the 90's called secrets of WWII that sates otherwise.
..................

It has everything to do with the Occult since they were part of Nazi Germany.

All the peeps claiming Nazis weren't into the occult are most likely occultists themselves and are just feeling guilty about it.


wow...time-life vhs evidence.
have you seen some of the books set that time warner publishes?

and the part i bolded is an incredible leap in 'logic'.

i guess all people skeptical of your claims are guilt-ridden occultists.....:rolleyes:

[drkitten]

I have some Time Life VHS tapes from the 90's called secrets of WWII that sates otherwise.

Well, your sources are wrong.



They got caught because one of them became so "Americanized" he felt bad and got worried and turned in the others after 2yrs by giving up their names. He didn't have contact with the others and thought they still were going to carry out their plans.

No. (http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-german-saboteurs-invade-america-in-1942.htm) There were actually two boatloads of Germans; all were caught within two weeks of the initial landing.


On Saturday, June 27, exactly two weeks after Dasch and his team had landed at Amagansett, Hoover wrote Roosevelt to tell him all eight German agents had been caught. 'On June 20, 1942,' he said, 'Robert Quirin, Heinrich Heinck and Ernest Peter Burger were apprehended in New York City by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The leader of the group, George John Dasch, was apprehended by Special Agents of the FBI on June 22, 1942, at New York City.' Actually, of course, Dasch had surrendered to the FBI in Washington four days earlier. It was his surrender that led to the other arrests, not the other way around.

Time Life books is another lousy source.

[USEagle13]

wow...time-life vhs evidence.
have you seen some of the books set that time warner publishes?

and the part i bolded is an incredible leap in 'logic'.

i guess all people skeptical of your claims are guilt-ridden occultists.....:rolleyes:

Really so smacking a sigil on their victims and tattooing them with a number with hidden meanings that only the Nazis knew the meaning to then burning them alive isn't Occult!?

[Mirrorglass]

Really so smacking a sigil on their victims and tattooing them with a number with hidden meanings that only the Nazis knew the meaning to then burning them alive isn't Occult!?

Nope.

[USEagle13]

ok

[dropzone]

Okay, I was born predisposesed to the woo. Sh**-o-dear, I was predisposed to be a Jesuit from before that! However, the step between Fadda Mike and killing lotsa folk IS NOT A SENSIBLE STEP. We never took it, nor did the VERY IDEA enter our heads.

[Astrodude]

Well, before I comment, I'd like to see your sources for this information. I'm not saying you're lying; it's just that I've never heard of this before, so I'd like to see where you found out about it.

I don't own but have read parts of Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's book The Occult Roots of Nazism. Goodrick-Clarke is a well regarded mainstream historian. Lanz von Liebenfels was an early 20th century occultist who tried to make a religion out of "Aryan-Christians" with a group called Ostara. As early as 1926, he claimed that he knew and influenced Hitler, though Hitler implicitly criticized occultists in "Mein Kampf". Goodrick-Clarke said that Liebenfels claims must be question because he had reasons to lie, but it's definitely worth considering since I don't think Hitler ever publicly denied the claim. The Nazis target constituency, ethnic-German and struggling gentiles, would never knowingly support occultists so he did appear anti-occult on the surface.

John Toland's biography of Hitler references an Odinist poem. The transcripts at the Nuremburg Trials and parts of Mein Kampf suggest that he wrote some occult tracts, but I cannot find my source on that part so I may have been mistaken. I did find an account of Goebbels' diary entry referencing a Hitler letter concerning the implementation of occult practices in Christian Churches gradually, though I don't have the actual text by Hitler.

Another book of note is Young Hitler by Claus Hant. It points out how the Thule Society, an occult organization, consisted of many future Nazi leaders, advanced by Hitler, such as Rudolf Hess and Dietrich Eckart(Hitler's rhetoric coach). Also, it is common knowledge that Himmler was obsessed with the occult so given Hitler's close association with Himmler it's definitely a very strong possibility based on that fact alone.

[USEagle13]

This video seems spot on and even shows how his throne looked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y55rG19fdYo)(did not want to mention the throne earlier since you were so whacked out over the fact Hitler was into the Occult)

[mike3]

Well, he certainly got less out of the education system than I would like, but this may well be a case of "you can't put in what God's left out." Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.

What do you do with someone like that, then? Institutionalize them for the rest of their lives?

[mike3]

Maybe, but don't confuse stupidity with ignorance and/or lack of training.

In broad terms, ignorant people are ignorant because they haven't learned something, often for lack of opportunity. Stupid people are stupid because they can't learn.


So what should "stupid" people do, and what's the best thing for them, since obviously it cannot be changed?

[drkitten]

What do you do with someone like that, then? Institutionalize them for the rest of their lives?

Well, here's where politics enters into it.

I'd like to be able to put him in an environment where he's less able to cause harm. Which means, among other things, an environment where he can't simply drop by the local 7-11 and buy a Glock with an extended magazine, and an environment where the local and national politicians aren't telling him via the language and imagery they're using that we need to protect the country by using that same Glock on the enemies of the state.

But since that's impossible, I guess institutionalization is the only thing we can do for him that wouldn't violate his sacred rights....

[mike3]

Well, here's where politics enters into it.

I'd like to be able to put him in an environment where he's less able to cause harm. Which means, among other things, an environment where he can't simply drop by the local 7-11 and buy a Glock with an extended magazine, and an environment where the local and national politicians aren't telling him via the language and imagery they're using that we need to protect the country by using that same Glock on the enemies of the state.

What kind of system would need to be in place to control the guns so that they could not get them?

But since that's impossible, I guess institutionalization is the only thing we can do for him that wouldn't violate his sacred rights....

Yeah, considering all the "hard right" mentality that seems to be present in this country.

[drkitten]

What kind of system would need to be in place to control the guns so that they could not get them?

Well, how hard is it to get a Glock in London or Paris?

[aries]

Let me clarify at least one point: The History Channel I mention is not the History Channel in the US. It is Viasat History. http://history.viasat.dk/

Michael H. Kater has publiced this book: Das Ahnenerbe des SS, 1933-1945. Deutscge Verlags-Anstalt, 1974. In English, there's this book: Pringle Heather: The Master Plan. London 2006.

[Astrodude]

Well, here's where politics enters into it.

I'd like to be able to put him in an environment where he's less able to cause harm. Which means, among other things, an environment where he can't simply drop by the local 7-11 and buy a Glock with an extended magazine, and an environment where the local and national politicians aren't telling him via the language and imagery they're using that we need to protect the country by using that same Glock on the enemies of the state.

But since that's impossible, I guess institutionalization is the only thing we can do for him that wouldn't violate his sacred rights....

I don't think the political language and imagery factored into Loughner's evil decision. Loughner also killed a right wing judge who opposed gun control. The best way to combat armed lunatics is to have armed security and actually make these nuts scared of being imprisoned/institutionalized.

I with you on the not so "sacred-right" of gun ownership. The Second Amendment refers to the rights of states to form militias aside from the US military if they so choose because coups could happen and need to be stopped, and it also recognizes an individual's right to defend himself. There is no reason, not even a historical reason, to think that all people have a right to conceal or even own firearms when they're going to meet government officials.

[drkitten]

I don't think the political language and imagery factored into Loughner's evil decision. Loughner also killed a right wing judge who opposed gun control. The best way to combat armed lunatics is to have armed security and actually make these nuts scared of being imprisoned/institutionalized.

Wait a minute. The best way to combat "armed lunatics" is to expect them to make a rational decision about deterrence?

By definition, "these nuts" will not respond rationally to their environment. You don't know what, if anything, will make them scared. The idea that you can control how the lunatics react is,.... well, lunacy.

[dudalb]

Well, he certainly got less out of the education system than I would like, but this may well be a case of "you can't put in what God's left out." Given the rest of the problems he's had in other areas, he may simply have a head full of bad wiring.

I get very disgusted with the butchery of the English Language that happens everyday on the Internet..including people who, if they are well educated as they claim should really know better.....but I really doubt that bad grammer and spelling is a sign that you are potential homicidal Maniac.

[USEagle13]

I get very disgusted with the butchery of the English Language

Really!? Language changes just like time and trends. You must not ever receive text messages from people who insert symbols and create short cuts for words.

All language is supposed to do is be a way for others to understand what you are trying to say or mean. So basically, if you are a grammar Nazi then it is time for you to catch up w/the times and stop acting so archaic. Keep the grammar Nazi-ing in the classroom. It has no place in a casual public atmosphere.

Here is a wiki article on it: SMS language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_language) for those whom are "behind the times"

[bikerdruid]

Really!? Language changes just like time and trends. You must not ever receive text messages from people who insert symbols and create short cuts for words.

All language is supposed to do is be a way for others to understand what you are trying to say or mean. So basically, if you are a grammar Nazi then it is time for you to catch up w/the times and stop acting so archaic. Keep the grammar Nazi-ing in the classroom. It has no place in a casual public atmosphere.

Here is a wiki article on it: SMS language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_language) for those whom are "behind the times"

agreed. language lives and breathes.
you would be amazed at the number of people that get indignant at my lack of capitalization in informal writing.
i was a high school english teacher for 25 years.
i know all about rules of capitalization.

[Astrodude]

I really doubt that bad grammer and spelling is a sign that you are potential homicidal Maniac.

For both your sake and mine, I hope you're right about spelling and 'grammar'.

Wait a minute. The best way to combat "armed lunatics" is to expect them to make a rational decision about deterrence?

Even the most deranged of us have some capacity to reason. If the punishment for murder was more severe, many criminals wouldn't want to commit anymore crimes.


By definition, "these nuts" will not respond rationally to their environment. You don't know what, if anything, will make them scared.
Not always, but we often have some general ideas and we can always find out. A combination of fear and ambition is the best deterrent. We can introduce them to something they'll enjoy and then take it away to teach them pain. That would given them something to fear and also give them some hope.

We don't have to completely control their reactions. We just have to ensure that they won't harm people. Better rehabilitative methods exist to make criminals productive members of society than classical conditioning that is now extremely softened anyways. The first step is to make him feel remorse, one way or another. The only way to do that is to make him know what pain really is. Make the murderers dread waking up in the morning because they hate their treatment so much. Once his spirit is broken, he'll start listening to people in authority who can direct him once authority figures convince him that there's hope for the obedient.

Have you ever read the full version of A Clockwork Orange with the extra chapter?

[Vortigern99]

Really!? Language changes just like time and trends. You must not ever receive text messages from people who insert symbols and create short cuts for words.

All language is supposed to do is be a way for others to understand what you are trying to say or mean. So basically, if you are a grammar Nazi then it is time for you to catch up w/the times and stop acting so archaic. Keep the grammar Nazi-ing in the classroom. It has no place in a casual public atmosphere.

Here is a wiki article on it: SMS language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_language) for those whom are "behind the times"

I find it ironic that in a post about the fluidity and ever-changing nature of language, in the final sentence you use a word, whom, which is falling out of usage in preference for the nominative form, who, and moreover, which you've used incorrectly here.

The correct clause is "for those who are 'behind the times'." Using "whom" where it does not belong makes you look pretentious and poorly educated, contradicting the stated intent of your own post.

[USEagle13]

I find it ironic that in a post about the fluidity and ever-changing nature of language, in the final sentence you use a word, whom, which is falling out of usage in preference for the nominative form, who, and moreover, which you've used incorrectly here.

The correct clause is "for those who are 'behind the times'." Using "whom" where it does not belong makes you look pretentious and poorly educated, contradicting the stated intent of your own post.

Whom cares.....

[Vortigern99]

Clearly not thou!

;)

[USEagle13]

Yeah sorry. I try to proof read and fix errors before I post but no one is perfect man.

[Vortigern99]

Yeah well, I was a little overbearing in my criticism of your grammar. Ultimately I agree that language is for communication, and certainly your post was very clear. :cool:

[Astrodude]

The sentence "Here is a wiki article on it: SMS language for those whom are "behind the times"", is pretty unique. The object of the preposition 'for' is 'those'. The following clause is modifying 'those'. 'Who' is a pronoun and 'those' is the antecedent. However, even though 'who' takes the place of a noun that's the object of a preposition, it is the subject of another clause. That is why it should be 'whom' and not 'who'. It's a very unusual situation. Usually, in a "whom vs. who" situation, 'whom' should follow the preposition.

[USEagle13]

Been over 10yrs since I was in college. Chill out.

[Vortigern99]

That is why it should be 'whom' and not 'who'. It's a very unusual situation. Usually, in a "whom vs. who" situation, 'whom' should follow the preposition.

Absolutely incorrect. The pronoun 'who' is the subject of a verb, 'are'. It is incorrect to say "those whom are"; "those who are" is correct.

Any further debate on this subject should be taken to the "Ubiquitous misuse of 'whom'" thread I started in this very forum.

[case#46cw39]

loughner isn't schizo, just dumb, uneducated, and anti social like any other murderer who acted with free will and in pre-meditated way.

Loughner Researched Lethal Injection Before Tucson Shooting
http://slatest.slate.com/id/2282582/entry/3/

[case#46cw39]

"According to cultists like Blavatsky (The Secret Doctrine, 1888), science and modernism were
to blame for many of man’s problems, including capitalism and technology,
and that this was in large part a Jewish phenomenon. ... Sensing
that people in Europe and in Germany were spiritually adrift in the wake of
Darwin’s assault on religion, Blavatsky gave evolutionary theory itself an improbable and mystical twist, positing that there was even a spiritual struggle between races, with the inherent superiority of the Aryan race, somehow arranged in the long line of “spiritual” evolution ... What mattered most, according to Levenda, regardless of the issue of
Blavatsky’s scholarship, was that her work itself was influential in its day. Indeed, it was Blavatsky who first pointed out the occult significance of the swastika, ... Furthermore, her initial hypothesis of a “master” race or a caste system of
races, was the rationale behind a number of Nazi projects, ranging from basic
anti-Semitism to medical experimentation on human beings, and, ultimately to
genocide and ethnic cleansing."
http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/3/659.full.pdf

[HansMustermann]

What kind of system would need to be in place to control the guns so that they could not get them?

AFAIK no country makes it absolutely impossible to get them. E.g., in Germany you pretty much have to be active long enough in a sports shooting club and not be an obvious nutcase.

But I think kinda that's the saving grace. It's not something that's easy to do on short notice or after you've already gone off the deep end.

I'd take more to heart the second half of that paragraph of drkitten's. In a country where some people pretty much grow up with the idea that guns are only for use on "tyrannical" politicians and traitors -- to the extent that some people will throw a tantrum if you as much as suggest they like guns or shooting; no, see, they just short of hate that gun, they're just doing their patriotic duty with it ;) -- and where nutcases paint other politicians as a one man communist invasion or the antichrist, or paint crosshairs over images of some politician's house, and where churches pray for the death of some politician or abortion doctor... I dunno, is it actually surprising that when someone goes schizophrenic or gets a bad case or untreated Lyme, they actually go and do some of that?

[case#46cw39]

How to brighten up my insane asylum ... this would be a big help in coping with the Voices ... a beam of light in this dark dark place ...
JHlGgzFn65k&NR=1

[Astrodude]

Absolutely incorrect. The pronoun 'who' is the subject of a verb, 'are'. It is incorrect to say "those whom are"; "those who are" is correct.

Any further debate on this subject should be taken to the "Ubiquitous misuse of 'whom'" thread I started in this very forum.

Good catch. I meant to say "That's why it should be 'who' and not 'whom'." If you read the sentences preceding and following that sentence, the intended meaning is clear. My education system has failed you all. I only hope my error doesn't create any homicidal maniacs.

[Vortigern99]

So do we all, Astrodude. ;)