Ashes to diamonds?

[clusterm2]

Turning your cremated loved ones into diamonds, fact or fiction?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2209799.stm

[wildflower1]

Apparently, fact. Saw brochures offering this and other creative postmortem options (such as launching cremated remains into space, or repackaging them into fireworks) when making final arrangements a year ago.

[clusterm2]

Yes but do the carbon atoms of your dearly departed exist in your shiny new diamond? or, are you purchasing cheap South African tat from a wide boy?
Anyone know if such a process is possible?

[geni]

Depends on the size. From the description they would only be 2-3mm across. The price looks about right.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by clusterm2
Turning your cremated loved ones into diamonds, fact or fiction?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2209799.stm

Wouldn't cremation burn up most of the carbon in the body?

Aren't human ashes mostly bone clinkers?

[Dymanic]

I'd really like to believe that this is all on the up-and-up. I find the idea quite touching. These quotes from the LifeGem site address a couple of my concerns:

"We have discovered how to capture the carbon by extracting it from existing cremated remains."

"Once we have received your order as specified, we immediately assign your unique 16 digit tracking number to ensure traceability through every step of our process."

[Johnny Pneumatic]

why not just donate your body to science? its free.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by bewareofdogmas
why not just donate your body to science? its free.

If the idea is to minimize the cost of disposal, I agree. I buy into that for my own funeral. However all do not agree.

My grandfather's funeral cost around $50000 which was most of his fortune. Some of his survivors (including myself) resented that. But there is no question about the fact that he wanted it that way.

Yeah, he took it with him.

His $10000 hand carved marble headstone was guaranteed for 5000 years. I wanted to ask do we get half our money back if it only lasts 2500 years, but I held my tongue.

Some people are like that.

[Captain Trips]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


Wouldn't cremation burn up most of the carbon in the body?

Aren't human ashes mostly bone clinkers?

Actually, I recall hearing somewhere that the ashes left over from cremation are mostly those of the coffin, and the heat of the crematorium is enough to completely vaporize human remains. In other words, the body goes up in smoke, and the remains of the wooden box get put into the urn.

I could be wrong, though. That has been known to happen.

[davefoc]

Yes, Captain Trips, I believe you are. The bones are crushed with some sort of a gadget that I don't remember the details of, but there are definitely identifiable bone fragments left over when a body is cremated with normal techniques.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Captain Trips


Actually, I recall hearing somewhere that the ashes left over from cremation are mostly those of the coffin, and the heat of the crematorium is enough to completely vaporize human remains. In other words, the body goes up in smoke, and the remains of the wooden box get put into the urn.

I could be wrong, though. That has been known to happen.

Same question then, only more so. Wouldn't burning consume most of the carbon of the wood of the coffin?

Ashes of thoroughly burned wood don't contain much carbon either, the carbon it burned out, right?

So where does the carbon for these alleged diamonds come from? Assuming they can create diamonds from powdered coal or the like, which I am also skeptical about.

[Gwrando]

Turning your cremated loved ones into diamonds, fact or fiction?


This very much looks like a scam to me. To the best of my knowlegde, there is very little carbon left in cremated remains. According to Wikipedia, it is mostly calcium phosphate: carbon compounds are simply too volatile to survive the retort temperatures.

It seems to me that this might be a little scam.

The "certifcate" they produce is a LifeGem certificate, not an independent organization's.

Selling cheap synthetic diamonds dearly?

They're a little vague on the details of the "carbon extraction", which -- to me -- is where the scam lies.

I see they are now claiming to make these diamonds from hair.

[Aepervius]

I won't say that I am a specialist anymore, since the techs advanced a bit. But at that time our tech was the following :
* get a Si waffer. Put it in a solution of mostly water with a bit of diamond powder (micrometric powerder I think...). Make the batch vibrate with ultrasonic wave. leave some hours. This will seed a bit of diamond on the surface (invisible with the eye)
* get a 10k microwave oven (glass bell with a metal grid to protect against outgoing MW radiation)
* put a gas composition of 5% CH4 and 95% of H2, the H2 here being a quasi neutral gas to form the bulk and help heating (well if I recall correctly which is not a given).
* put udner MW to create a plasma. Let cook 20 hours circa. The microscopic diamond will be the seed. CH4 will deposit and by reaction create diamond, H2 leave as gas.
* after 20h you get a nice 1-1,5 inches wide diamond lens with about 1/8 of an inche thick. Was sometimes a bit yellowish due to some CHx inclusion.
* you can etch the waffer away to get your diamond.

So why do I say that ?

Well take a person. This is mostly water, with a lot of carbon chains, some bit of Ca, P and a bit of the rest in smaller quantity (S,Fe, etc...). It is theoretically possible (but terribly wastful in energy) to transform the organic material into diesel (hehe) or CH4 (isn't this the principle of heat-cracking to generate CH4 from crude ?).

So yes theoretically it is possible to transform a person into a bit of diamond. Does it make sense ? No. Just take a freaking gas bottle of CH4 and just burn the person, that would be more economical.

[Gwrando]

I won't say that I am a specialist anymore, since the techs advanced a bit. But at that time our tech was the following :
* get a Si waffer. Put it in a solution of mostly water with a bit of diamond
......
* you can etch the waffer away to get your diamond.

So why do I say that ?

So yes theoretically it is possible to transform a person into a bit of diamond. Does it make sense ? No. Just take a freaking gas bottle of CH4 and just burn the person, that would be more economical.

I know it's theoretically possible to make diamonds from a person, a good friend of mine works for de Beers making diamonds, but these people claim to make it from a person's ashes, when all the carbon's supposed to be burned away. And they don't use CVD, they do it by HTHP, according to the website.

I can't post links, but Google for "Lifegem".

[andyandy]

i think it's Ashes to Australia.....:(

[Amapola]

I remember a discussion about this on another Skeptic site. The truth is, you really can make diamonds - there are two basic ways to do it. Here is an article (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-10-06-man-made-diamonds_x.htm) about making diamonds and why people are doing it.

As far as Lifegem, I seem to recall reading on their site that they used "a portion" of the carbon from the ashes in the diamond. Also go to this link: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1105&highlight= where one of the people looked up the patents Lifegem is using for the process. They are not cremating in the usual way, they are doing it in a way that really does allow them to collect a small amount of carbon.

In short I think they are really making some man-made diamonds, but they are using language in a clever way as far as using carbon that came from previously cremated people. I think they "honestly" do use at least SOME carbon from a person to make the diamond, just not very much.

[SphereGuy]

I saw a show on this on Discovery Channel or Nova or something like that. It wasn't that the diamond was made completely out of the ashes it was that some of the ashes was added to whatever it is they make fake diamonds out of. Like a table spoon or something like that. It was a very, very small amount of the whole body. They showed the whole process from beginning to end and if I recall they still had ashes to spread or put in an urn or something.

It wasn't that the diamond was made out of your loved one, it was just that a little bit of your loved one was in the diamond. Huge difference.

[Gwrando]

It wasn't that the diamond was made out of your loved one, it was just that a little bit of your loved one was in the diamond. Huge difference.

It is as I thought then, a neat little way to sell synthetic diamonds for a very good price.

[ponderingturtle]

I saw a show on this on Discovery Channel or Nova or something like that. It wasn't that the diamond was made completely out of the ashes it was that some of the ashes was added to whatever it is they make fake diamonds out of. Like a table spoon or something like that. It was a very, very small amount of the whole body. They showed the whole process from beginning to end and if I recall they still had ashes to spread or put in an urn or something.

It wasn't that the diamond was made out of your loved one, it was just that a little bit of your loved one was in the diamond. Huge difference.

Synthetic diamonds are real diamonds, not fake diamonds like debeers would want you to believe. I would think skeptics would not place such a strong distiction of natural vs synthetic.

Hmm, should debeers start an all natural marketing campaign, claiming that their diamonds are made with out chemicals?

[Cuddles]

It wasn't that the diamond was made out of your loved one, it was just that a little bit of your loved one was in the diamond. Huge difference.

Homeopathic diamonds?:p

Personally I see nothing wrong with this idea (the diamond part, not the homeopathy). It's not really any different from keeping a picture or some personal object close to you, except that this is a pretty shiny thing.

[Amapola]

Synthetic diamonds are real diamonds, not fake diamonds like debeers would want you to believe. I would think skeptics would not place such a strong distiction of natural vs synthetic.

Hmm, should debeers start an all natural marketing campaign, claiming that their diamonds are made with out chemicals?

DeBeers began trying to "train" jewelers years ago about man-made diamonds. Their stance was that natural diamonds are "real" and man-made ones are cheap, fake and tacky. Well, naturally they would say that. ;) They don't control the market for man-made diamonds. DeBeers has even developed some fairly sophisticated equipment so that jewelers can spot the man-made diamonds, although it is getting more difficult all the time.

In fact it is not cheap or easy to make diamonds. Read the link I posted earlier. I think the only reason man-made diamonds cost less than natural diamonds is because the world market for them is not controlled by DeBeers....... don't tell them I said that....... :D

[SphereGuy]

Homeopathic diamonds?:p

Personally I see nothing wrong with this idea (the diamond part, not the homeopathy). It's not really any different from keeping a picture or some personal object close to you, except that this is a pretty shiny thing.

I don't know, it's kind of creepy to me. Imagine my ex-wife in a diamond on my finger while I'm dating or something. Maybe as a diamond in a wall plaque or something, but not as one to wear. And with just a teaspoon who knows what part you got. Spleen? Finger and toe? Buttock? My mother-in-law still has my father-in-law's urn in a closet with the cleaning supplies. The last time we visited she said something like, "The extra shampoo is in the closet next to daddy."

Synthetic diamonds are real diamonds, not fake diamonds like debeers would want you to believe.

I didn't mean "fake", I meant non-naturally occuring. I know they are diamonds, but I always thought they weren't as nice as natural ones and jewelers could easily tell the difference.

[ponderingturtle]

DeBeers began trying to "train" jewelers years ago about man-made diamonds. Their stance was that natural diamonds are "real" and man-made ones are cheap, fake and tacky. Well, naturally they would say that. ;) They don't control the market for man-made diamonds. DeBeers has even developed some fairly sophisticated equipment so that jewelers can spot the man-made diamonds, although it is getting more difficult all the time.

In fact it is not cheap or easy to make diamonds. Read the link I posted earlier. I think the only reason man-made diamonds cost less than natural diamonds is because the world market for them is not controlled by DeBeers....... don't tell them I said that....... :D

I know, DeBeers is a cartel who can not even legaly operate in the US because of anti trust laws, who's whole purpose is to keep the price of diamonds artificialy high and promote their consumption.

But synthetic diamonds are the one hope of breaking DeBeers monopoly on diamonds in the near future. But I am aware that growing gem quality diamonds is very hard and hence very expensive. Just not quite as much as DeBeers charges for them.

[ponderingturtle]

I didn't mean "fake", I meant non-naturally occuring. I know they are diamonds, but I always thought they weren't as nice as natural ones and jewelers could easily tell the difference.

This is becoming less and less true. They are solving the problem that made most of them yellow(nitrogen from the air) and the other marker I have heard was inclusions of aluminum from the growth process. And they are working on that as well.

And there are lots of flaws in diamonds that grew in the ground as well.

Now for the subject at hand, well what about say having a diamond pendant with your grandmother as part of it? Makes it similar to having a diamond pendant left to you from your grandmother. So I can see the market

[Amapola]

I think there is a market. I can't see much difference (except price) between this and those little tiny sterling or 14k jars you wear around your neck that have the ashes of whoever in them. That's not something I would personally choose to wear, but if a customer wants one I will sell it to them.

[pgwenthold]

DeBeers began trying to "train" jewelers years ago about man-made diamonds. Their stance was that natural diamonds are "real" and man-made ones are cheap, fake and tacky. Well, naturally they would say that. ;) They don't control the market for man-made diamonds. DeBeers has even developed some fairly sophisticated equipment so that jewelers can spot the man-made diamonds, although it is getting more difficult all the time.


I didn't know that "not artificially made" was one of the three Cs?

If the clarity, color, and carats are there, then doesn't it still sparkle?

If it takes a powder diffraction spectrum to distinguish man made diamond from mined diamond, then there's no real difference in the bling.

[Cuddles]

I didn't know that "not artificially made" was one of the three Cs?

If the clarity, color, and carats are there, then doesn't it still sparkle?

If it takes a powder diffraction spectrum to distinguish man made diamond from mined diamond, then there's no real difference in the bling.

The trouble is that in the past, fakes could look OK to the layperson, but were likely to be of much worse quality and could degrade over time, or even just fall apart. More sophisticated artifical ones could cause problems because they were still not of the same quality as natural ones, and so could fail when being cut or if used for industrial purposes. In fact, diamonds are used far more in industry than as fashion items, and poor quality diamonds can cause major problems. With other gems this is not such a big worry, but there is still the possibility that artifical ones will not be as stable, or that a jewelsmith will lose money if they do not cut as easily or as nicely.

As I understand it, these problems are largely solved. Although it is still possible to tell the difference between natural and artifical gems, there is very little difference in either looks or properties to make it worth making a fuss over (unless you stand to lose lots of money of course :p). On the other hand, it will always be useful to spot low quality fakes, as opposed to the high quality fakes.

Edit : This (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15721234.900) is a nice article on fake gems, although it fails to give any reason why we should care about them.

Incidentally, the hardest diamonds ever (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18124372.700-what-a-diamond-a-day-makes.html) are artifical.

[ponderingturtle]

I didn't know that "not artificially made" was one of the three Cs?

Ah but it does not come from DeBeers, and they do not have a stranglehold on that market so it is clearly inferior.

If it was worth anything it would come from DeBeers, after all don't monopolies know best?

[Gwrando]

Homeopathic diamonds?:p

Personally I see nothing wrong with this idea (the diamond part, not the homeopathy). It's not really any different from keeping a picture or some personal object close to you, except that this is a pretty shiny thing.

Nothing wrong with that, except that the price seems to suggest some degree of exploitation.

I can't post links yet, but Google should allow you to find the following:

And a 5th C: Cost

LifeGem’s prices start at $2,299 (presumably for the smallest they offer, .25 carat).

For comparison, a natural .25-carat diamond of mid-range clarity that has been made blue by irradiation would retail for $500 to $600.

Another comparison. Synthesized gems have only a fraction the value of natural gems. For example, the wholesale cost of a natural half-carat emerald is 14 times the cost of a synthesized emerald of the same size.

[ponderingturtle]

Synthetic emeraldes are a horrible comparison for synthetic diamonds becuase the crystals are so much easier to grow.

The difficulty in makeing synthetic diamonds makes them much more comparable with real diamonds in terms of costs

The smallest size that Adia diamonds (http://www.adiadiamonds.com/adia-diamonds.php?view=table&sort=&color%5B%5D=B&page=5) lists is .31 carrats for blue at $1,442, and a yellow .41 $677.

So that is entirely dishonnest, they are propetuating the Natural ideal that because they come from the ground they are better.